Am I overreacting?
April 9, 2015 4:55 PM Subscribe
Hi, Meta peeps. So I recently went on a short trip with my friends and I've come back feeling a bit...frustrated. I wanted to get some objective opinions to see whether my feelings are justified.
Basically, my two friends (let's call them Sarah and Mindy) and I were visiting another friend in a different city. Ever since we got there, I felt like Sarah and Mindy were both kind of just ignoring me. We would all hang out with our other friend in the day and come back to our hotel in the evening. When were out, I didn't notice it too much because I had other company. But I did pick up on the fact that Mindy in particular was quite/moody around me. At first I thought she was just tired or not feeling well, but she wasn't like this around the others. She would crack jokes and be her hilarious self, but whenever it was just us two for a few minutes, she was completely silent and would give one word answers. She was completely fine before we left for the trip. I did ask her several times if everything was ok, and she said yeah it's fine. But she was colder with me, that much was obvious. Sarah was acting normally, but with Mindy around, I felt like I almost became invisible.
Back at the hotel, Sarah and Mindy would have conversations and not really include me. I'd try to jump in every little while and they would say a word or two to me every now and then, but that was it. I could tell they were only trying to include me out of politeness so I gave up after a while and just watched tv, and they didn't seem to mind that (in hindsight, I know I could have tried harder to include myself). Then at breakfast in the hotel dining hall, Mindy and I went down first and we just made small talk. Most of the conversation we did have was Mindy talking about how hilarious and fun Sarah is to be around. Then when Sarah joined us as well, she lit up and exclaimed "Oh Sarah's here!" I felt like she couldn't have been more excited to have someone else other than me to talk to. And again, it was just the two of them talking with me trying to jump in every now and then. This pattern kept repeating itself for most of the trip.
Then on our way home, I had asked to sit on the window side in the train because I usually get nausea when I'm in a vehicle for too long and being next to the window helps with that, but Sarah jumped in first and (jokingly) said "Ha, you're too late" and sat down by the window instead. This is when I admittedly think I acted childishly and told the two that I was going to go sit in an empty seat by a window because I wasn't feeling well (but really it was because I was angry at them both). I know Mindy didn't need to offer her window seat to me because she paid for her own ticket, but since I was the one who paid for Sarah's ticket, I felt like I at least deserved that much courtesy from her to get the seat I wanted (I know that's kind of petty...). They did come to check on me once after that to see if I was feeling ok. After about an hour, I felt guilty about kind of storming off earlier so I went back to sit beside them and bought them lunch and coffee on the train as a kind of apology (still didn't get the window seat). Things were pleasant for a while but eventually, they both were deep in conversation again and not really trying to include me so I just listened to my ipod for the rest of the trip.
I'm realizing even as I'm writing this that a lot of this probably sounds petty and juvenile. But I guess I'm just frustrated that my much-needed vacation wasn't as relaxing as I had hoped it would be and more than that, I'm hurt by the way my friends acted.
I think another thing that's been bothering me for a while now is that I feel like they both individually come to me when they need something, but when the three of us are together, I end up feeling like a third wheel a lot of the time (though I've never felt it as much as I did on this trip). Both of them have lost immediate family members in the last two years and have gone through hard time emotionally, so I want to be a good friend to them, but I feel like they don't appreciate me as much. I'll pay for things like lunches and dinners and spend hours (literally) talking to them, helping them get through their problems even when I have things of my own to do, and don't always get a thank-you either. And when I need them most, I find that they don't always offer the same in return. And I'm not sure how to communicate that to them without sounding petty and needy. I've tried in not-so-direct ways before but they both became kind of defensive and I'm very conflict-averse so I always end up dropping it and apologizing myself.
I do want to point out that I'm in no way trying to portray myself as the blameless, saint-like victim here or my friends as horrendous people. They're good people (which is why I'm friends with them) and have been there for me as well. But I do genuinely feel hurt by how they've acted during this trip and unappreciated by them overall. I don't think it always has to be 50-50 in a relationship, but it's been feeling quite unbalanced with both of them for quite some time now.
Do you guys think that I'm overreacting to all this, and it's not really as big a deal as I'm making it out to be in my head? Is there something I could have done differently? Should I tell them how I feel, or just let it go?
Thanks, Metas.
Basically, my two friends (let's call them Sarah and Mindy) and I were visiting another friend in a different city. Ever since we got there, I felt like Sarah and Mindy were both kind of just ignoring me. We would all hang out with our other friend in the day and come back to our hotel in the evening. When were out, I didn't notice it too much because I had other company. But I did pick up on the fact that Mindy in particular was quite/moody around me. At first I thought she was just tired or not feeling well, but she wasn't like this around the others. She would crack jokes and be her hilarious self, but whenever it was just us two for a few minutes, she was completely silent and would give one word answers. She was completely fine before we left for the trip. I did ask her several times if everything was ok, and she said yeah it's fine. But she was colder with me, that much was obvious. Sarah was acting normally, but with Mindy around, I felt like I almost became invisible.
Back at the hotel, Sarah and Mindy would have conversations and not really include me. I'd try to jump in every little while and they would say a word or two to me every now and then, but that was it. I could tell they were only trying to include me out of politeness so I gave up after a while and just watched tv, and they didn't seem to mind that (in hindsight, I know I could have tried harder to include myself). Then at breakfast in the hotel dining hall, Mindy and I went down first and we just made small talk. Most of the conversation we did have was Mindy talking about how hilarious and fun Sarah is to be around. Then when Sarah joined us as well, she lit up and exclaimed "Oh Sarah's here!" I felt like she couldn't have been more excited to have someone else other than me to talk to. And again, it was just the two of them talking with me trying to jump in every now and then. This pattern kept repeating itself for most of the trip.
Then on our way home, I had asked to sit on the window side in the train because I usually get nausea when I'm in a vehicle for too long and being next to the window helps with that, but Sarah jumped in first and (jokingly) said "Ha, you're too late" and sat down by the window instead. This is when I admittedly think I acted childishly and told the two that I was going to go sit in an empty seat by a window because I wasn't feeling well (but really it was because I was angry at them both). I know Mindy didn't need to offer her window seat to me because she paid for her own ticket, but since I was the one who paid for Sarah's ticket, I felt like I at least deserved that much courtesy from her to get the seat I wanted (I know that's kind of petty...). They did come to check on me once after that to see if I was feeling ok. After about an hour, I felt guilty about kind of storming off earlier so I went back to sit beside them and bought them lunch and coffee on the train as a kind of apology (still didn't get the window seat). Things were pleasant for a while but eventually, they both were deep in conversation again and not really trying to include me so I just listened to my ipod for the rest of the trip.
I'm realizing even as I'm writing this that a lot of this probably sounds petty and juvenile. But I guess I'm just frustrated that my much-needed vacation wasn't as relaxing as I had hoped it would be and more than that, I'm hurt by the way my friends acted.
I think another thing that's been bothering me for a while now is that I feel like they both individually come to me when they need something, but when the three of us are together, I end up feeling like a third wheel a lot of the time (though I've never felt it as much as I did on this trip). Both of them have lost immediate family members in the last two years and have gone through hard time emotionally, so I want to be a good friend to them, but I feel like they don't appreciate me as much. I'll pay for things like lunches and dinners and spend hours (literally) talking to them, helping them get through their problems even when I have things of my own to do, and don't always get a thank-you either. And when I need them most, I find that they don't always offer the same in return. And I'm not sure how to communicate that to them without sounding petty and needy. I've tried in not-so-direct ways before but they both became kind of defensive and I'm very conflict-averse so I always end up dropping it and apologizing myself.
I do want to point out that I'm in no way trying to portray myself as the blameless, saint-like victim here or my friends as horrendous people. They're good people (which is why I'm friends with them) and have been there for me as well. But I do genuinely feel hurt by how they've acted during this trip and unappreciated by them overall. I don't think it always has to be 50-50 in a relationship, but it's been feeling quite unbalanced with both of them for quite some time now.
Do you guys think that I'm overreacting to all this, and it's not really as big a deal as I'm making it out to be in my head? Is there something I could have done differently? Should I tell them how I feel, or just let it go?
Thanks, Metas.
Also, you can't force friendship dynamics. You'll always feel unsatisfied if you expect this to work that way. If you feel unliked or unsupported by ppl who are your friends, then you just need to go find new ones. Not saying you dump them, just don't be needy and demanding they fulfill your emotional needs or owe you anything.
You all sound kind of young. Is that the case?
posted by discopolo at 5:03 PM on April 9, 2015 [4 favorites]
You all sound kind of young. Is that the case?
posted by discopolo at 5:03 PM on April 9, 2015 [4 favorites]
Do you guys think that I'm overreacting to all this, and it's not really as big a deal as I'm making it out to be in my head? Is there something I could have done differently? Should I tell them how I feel, or just let it go?
Nope, your feelings are just your feelings, and they're okay to have. You felt ignored, and that's not a nice feeling. These are people who caused you to have un-nice feelings by ignoring you. That's very natural. People generally don't go on vacations with friends to be ignored. There's nothing needy about this! But what you do have to do is accept that they're "just not that into you" and move on. You can try confronting them but I would bet anything that they won't admit anything's wrong. They will never tell you this to your face, so you have to do the hard work here yourself. And that hard work will be finding new, better friends. I'm sorry.
posted by bleep at 5:10 PM on April 9, 2015 [13 favorites]
Nope, your feelings are just your feelings, and they're okay to have. You felt ignored, and that's not a nice feeling. These are people who caused you to have un-nice feelings by ignoring you. That's very natural. People generally don't go on vacations with friends to be ignored. There's nothing needy about this! But what you do have to do is accept that they're "just not that into you" and move on. You can try confronting them but I would bet anything that they won't admit anything's wrong. They will never tell you this to your face, so you have to do the hard work here yourself. And that hard work will be finding new, better friends. I'm sorry.
posted by bleep at 5:10 PM on April 9, 2015 [13 favorites]
Response by poster: Thanks for your feedback, guys.
discopolo, I'm 28 and my friends are all in their mid-20s. Is that young?
I think one of the reasons I'm upset that they're not fulfilling my emotional needs (as you rightly picked up) is that I have clinical depression and anxiety and it's actually rather hard for me to talk to people I don't know and make new friends. So I'm really trying to hold on tight to the few that I do have. they've definitely been a support system for me in the past but things have changed a bit the last couple of years, and I'm not entirely sure why. I think it might be my own personality as well, I can be a pushover. I've always had the need to please....
I bought Sarah's ticket because she didn't have internet at the time so I used my credit card to buy hers as well. She said she'd pay me back during the trip, but didn't. I've tried to bring it up, but she kind of brushed over that and now seems to have forgotten. I'm not quite sure how to bring it up without sounding petty.
posted by KTN at 5:17 PM on April 9, 2015 [1 favorite]
discopolo, I'm 28 and my friends are all in their mid-20s. Is that young?
I think one of the reasons I'm upset that they're not fulfilling my emotional needs (as you rightly picked up) is that I have clinical depression and anxiety and it's actually rather hard for me to talk to people I don't know and make new friends. So I'm really trying to hold on tight to the few that I do have. they've definitely been a support system for me in the past but things have changed a bit the last couple of years, and I'm not entirely sure why. I think it might be my own personality as well, I can be a pushover. I've always had the need to please....
I bought Sarah's ticket because she didn't have internet at the time so I used my credit card to buy hers as well. She said she'd pay me back during the trip, but didn't. I've tried to bring it up, but she kind of brushed over that and now seems to have forgotten. I'm not quite sure how to bring it up without sounding petty.
posted by KTN at 5:17 PM on April 9, 2015 [1 favorite]
They sound like immature high schoolers, not grown women. I think you can do better for friends!
posted by cecic at 5:19 PM on April 9, 2015 [17 favorites]
posted by cecic at 5:19 PM on April 9, 2015 [17 favorites]
I'll pay for things like lunches and dinners and spend hours (literally) talking to them, helping them get through their problems even when I have things of my own to do, and don't always get a thank-you either. And when I need them most, I find that they don't always offer the same in return.
It sounds to me like you have a very uneven relationship to both of them. They may both want to mollify you in order to continue to have access to money and other kinds of support, but it sounds like they aren't real friends. It sounds like they do not have as much to give as you do, and I don't just mean materially.
I have no idea whether that is a short term thing or a long term thing.
posted by Michele in California at 5:20 PM on April 9, 2015 [26 favorites]
It sounds to me like you have a very uneven relationship to both of them. They may both want to mollify you in order to continue to have access to money and other kinds of support, but it sounds like they aren't real friends. It sounds like they do not have as much to give as you do, and I don't just mean materially.
I have no idea whether that is a short term thing or a long term thing.
posted by Michele in California at 5:20 PM on April 9, 2015 [26 favorites]
It sounds like Mindy has a strong friend crush on Sarah and resents you being around. It sounds like Sarah really loves the attention from Mindy and didn't think to examine the dynamics and be more inclusive of you. The train situation sounds like it's the most legitimate place to be upset. You bought Sarah a ticket for the train, told her that you'd prefer to sit in the window seat because you get sick otherwise, and she jumped in and took it anyway? And then, after being treated poorly you returned to buy them lunch? I think that you overcompensated and are taking too much responsibility for their inconsiderate behavior.
Group trips like this can really change or magnify friendship dynamics and I think that's what you experienced here. If it were me, I'd probably drop Mindy after this, or at least consider her not a real friend. I'd also hold Sarah at arm's length because she repeatedly showed me very little consideration. You're not being needy. You're not wrong to be upset. You expected to be shown consideration and gestures of friendship and they came up short at every turn. Stop paying for everything and stop being constantly available to them if they aren't willing to do the same for you. Healthy friendships don't leave you feeling like a doormat.
posted by quince at 5:21 PM on April 9, 2015 [42 favorites]
Group trips like this can really change or magnify friendship dynamics and I think that's what you experienced here. If it were me, I'd probably drop Mindy after this, or at least consider her not a real friend. I'd also hold Sarah at arm's length because she repeatedly showed me very little consideration. You're not being needy. You're not wrong to be upset. You expected to be shown consideration and gestures of friendship and they came up short at every turn. Stop paying for everything and stop being constantly available to them if they aren't willing to do the same for you. Healthy friendships don't leave you feeling like a doormat.
posted by quince at 5:21 PM on April 9, 2015 [42 favorites]
Why are you paying for their tickets? Or regularly paying for their lunches? Stop doing that. Don't buy things for people unless they pay you up front. If they stop being friends with you because you no longer sponsor them, then they weren't your friends to start with.
posted by ethidda at 5:21 PM on April 9, 2015 [33 favorites]
posted by ethidda at 5:21 PM on April 9, 2015 [33 favorites]
Yeah, it sounds like Mindy and Sarah are super into each other and while that's great for them, feeling like the third wheel hurts a hell of a lot. Especially on vacation, when tensions run high. No, you're not overreacting. But I'm not seeing malice on their part, mostly insensitivity and juvenile cliquishness.
Since being more into each other than they are you isn't "wrong" of them, I don't see that there's anything to confront them about. Do you enjoy them more separately? Then take a breather from the happy couple and just see them individually. If I were you I'd take a break from both of them (together and separately) and reassess the friendships.
And whatever you do, definitely stop paying for their shit and stop being so available to them. You don't have to kiss ass to be liked and treated well. Seems like they take advantage of you, probably without meaning to.
posted by kapers at 5:30 PM on April 9, 2015 [2 favorites]
Since being more into each other than they are you isn't "wrong" of them, I don't see that there's anything to confront them about. Do you enjoy them more separately? Then take a breather from the happy couple and just see them individually. If I were you I'd take a break from both of them (together and separately) and reassess the friendships.
And whatever you do, definitely stop paying for their shit and stop being so available to them. You don't have to kiss ass to be liked and treated well. Seems like they take advantage of you, probably without meaning to.
posted by kapers at 5:30 PM on April 9, 2015 [2 favorites]
Remind her about the ticket. She needs to pay you back.
Your complaints are similar to the complaints that you hear from immature women about their husbands. He doesn't meet my needs. He isn't doing what I expected of him.
Here is the deal- no one can meet all of your needs. You have to take people how they are and either love them or leave them. You didn't have fun on this trip with your two friends and you felt awkward. You can either give them another chance (I would, it sounds like they have had a shit year, the both of them) or you can take a break from them. But what you cannot do is make them behave how you want them to behave. That is not going to happen.
You have a right to feel hurt by their actions. I'm not saying that you don't. What I'm saying is that, instead of pouting or pulling back, you need to sit down and look at the situation and see how much of it was you and how much is them. And then fix what you have control over.
posted by myselfasme at 5:31 PM on April 9, 2015 [5 favorites]
Your complaints are similar to the complaints that you hear from immature women about their husbands. He doesn't meet my needs. He isn't doing what I expected of him.
Here is the deal- no one can meet all of your needs. You have to take people how they are and either love them or leave them. You didn't have fun on this trip with your two friends and you felt awkward. You can either give them another chance (I would, it sounds like they have had a shit year, the both of them) or you can take a break from them. But what you cannot do is make them behave how you want them to behave. That is not going to happen.
You have a right to feel hurt by their actions. I'm not saying that you don't. What I'm saying is that, instead of pouting or pulling back, you need to sit down and look at the situation and see how much of it was you and how much is them. And then fix what you have control over.
posted by myselfasme at 5:31 PM on April 9, 2015 [5 favorites]
It does sound like there's some friend crushing going on, and probably unintentional exclusion. I think feeling a little hurt by that's normal. Showing it, though, by sulking or storming off, isn't so great.
I also think funny triangulations can happen in threes. Do you all often hang out in this configuration, or is it more often you + Sarah, and then you + Mindy, and then Sarah + Mindy? That feeling of closeness to one or another person can change over time. I'd maybe see them only one-on-one for a bit.
I think what you could do next time you're in a situation like that is just continue to participate as fully as you can, by making positive contributions to the conversation. But it's hard on trips - next time, plan for a foursome (or twosome).
posted by cotton dress sock at 5:32 PM on April 9, 2015 [1 favorite]
I also think funny triangulations can happen in threes. Do you all often hang out in this configuration, or is it more often you + Sarah, and then you + Mindy, and then Sarah + Mindy? That feeling of closeness to one or another person can change over time. I'd maybe see them only one-on-one for a bit.
I think what you could do next time you're in a situation like that is just continue to participate as fully as you can, by making positive contributions to the conversation. But it's hard on trips - next time, plan for a foursome (or twosome).
posted by cotton dress sock at 5:32 PM on April 9, 2015 [1 favorite]
I've tried to bring it up, but she kind of brushed over that and now seems to have forgotten. I'm not quite sure how to bring it up without sounding petty.
"Hi Sarah, remember how I paid for your ticket, and you said you'd pay me back? I'd like to know when that's going to happen, thanks!"
Stop paying for things for friends you feel are treating you badly. In general, never pay for anything or lend anyone money unless you do not care at all about never getting it back.
posted by poffin boffin at 5:34 PM on April 9, 2015 [27 favorites]
"Hi Sarah, remember how I paid for your ticket, and you said you'd pay me back? I'd like to know when that's going to happen, thanks!"
Stop paying for things for friends you feel are treating you badly. In general, never pay for anything or lend anyone money unless you do not care at all about never getting it back.
posted by poffin boffin at 5:34 PM on April 9, 2015 [27 favorites]
Yeah, Mindy and Sarah do not sound like great, supportive friends. It sucks that you had such a disappointing experience on a trip that was supposed to be fun. This sounds like a wake-up call and an opportunity to spread your wings and make new friends.
One thing I noticed in your account of your own actions is that you seem to struggle with being direct and expecting kindness from people in your life. It was rude of your friends not to give you the window seat if you get motion sickness. But instead of telling them you were mad, you walked away abruptly, and then bought them food and drinks. What they learned was, they can be rude to KTN and exclude her, KTN won't call them on their rudeness, and KTN will buy them snacks afterward -- win for them!!!
To me, it sounds like the solution is both to look for people who are more supportive and affirming, but also to focus on your own actions and messages you are sending to people. Work on asking for what you need, not reflexively paying for others' things, and speaking up if you feel wronged. It's really hard and I'm not an expert at it by any means but as someone who struggles with direct communication, the progress I HAVE made has really improved my relationships.
posted by rogerrogerwhatsyourrvectorvicto at 5:36 PM on April 9, 2015 [17 favorites]
One thing I noticed in your account of your own actions is that you seem to struggle with being direct and expecting kindness from people in your life. It was rude of your friends not to give you the window seat if you get motion sickness. But instead of telling them you were mad, you walked away abruptly, and then bought them food and drinks. What they learned was, they can be rude to KTN and exclude her, KTN won't call them on their rudeness, and KTN will buy them snacks afterward -- win for them!!!
To me, it sounds like the solution is both to look for people who are more supportive and affirming, but also to focus on your own actions and messages you are sending to people. Work on asking for what you need, not reflexively paying for others' things, and speaking up if you feel wronged. It's really hard and I'm not an expert at it by any means but as someone who struggles with direct communication, the progress I HAVE made has really improved my relationships.
posted by rogerrogerwhatsyourrvectorvicto at 5:36 PM on April 9, 2015 [17 favorites]
Money stuff really colors my experiences with friends in a bad way. I suggest closing the loop on the ticket thing as a good first step toward clarity.
By email or text:
"Hey! The train tickets from (trip) were (money). Can you send me a paypal using (PayPal email address)?"or
Or
"Hey! I'm just squaring up finances for my records - No need to pay me back on the train tickets thing. its a jubilee!"
If you feel weird saying the second one, then say the first.
posted by samthemander at 5:39 PM on April 9, 2015 [5 favorites]
By email or text:
"Hey! The train tickets from (trip) were (money). Can you send me a paypal using (PayPal email address)?"or
Or
"Hey! I'm just squaring up finances for my records - No need to pay me back on the train tickets thing. its a jubilee!"
If you feel weird saying the second one, then say the first.
posted by samthemander at 5:39 PM on April 9, 2015 [5 favorites]
Also - I think part of this is the fact that you've been primarily a listener for both of them. Sometimes, when people unload themselves, they unconsciously want to distance themselves from both the act of confession, which can be embarrassing, and the negative feelings they disclosed. You might, despite yourself, remind them of those - especially if you happen to be tuned into that frequency of loss or sadness more generally. Sarah and Mindy have both directly experienced recent losses, while you've been more of a witness. So while with each other, they may be able to talk about (and, importantly, forget!) their grief more easily and naturally, you may remind them of having lost face.
So in case that's anywhere near right, it might be better to hang out with other people for now. And, if you're very often cast in (or voluntarily take up) the role of confidante, explore other roles with these other people. Go out and have fun just to have fun, no talking about sad things.
posted by cotton dress sock at 5:53 PM on April 9, 2015 [9 favorites]
So in case that's anywhere near right, it might be better to hang out with other people for now. And, if you're very often cast in (or voluntarily take up) the role of confidante, explore other roles with these other people. Go out and have fun just to have fun, no talking about sad things.
posted by cotton dress sock at 5:53 PM on April 9, 2015 [9 favorites]
all the advice above is great!
just chiming in about the money thing.
my rule is "only lend money you're willing to part with permanently". so if you expect to get it back, don't lend it out in the first place.
best of luck! you sound like a nice person and you deserve better friends!!
posted by bitteroldman at 6:04 PM on April 9, 2015 [1 favorite]
just chiming in about the money thing.
my rule is "only lend money you're willing to part with permanently". so if you expect to get it back, don't lend it out in the first place.
best of luck! you sound like a nice person and you deserve better friends!!
posted by bitteroldman at 6:04 PM on April 9, 2015 [1 favorite]
I think your instinct that they don't like you that much is pretty good. So then the question becomes: why are you investing so much time, emotional effort, and money into these people who don't like you?
posted by MsMolly at 6:25 PM on April 9, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by MsMolly at 6:25 PM on April 9, 2015 [3 favorites]
Friends can be weird sometimes. Maybe Sarah was distracted when you asked her about the ticket? The next time that you see Sarah, politely ask her to pay you for her train ticket. If she gets all huffy and weird about it, don't fuss, just drop it, and then drop her.
posted by ovvl at 6:44 PM on April 9, 2015
posted by ovvl at 6:44 PM on April 9, 2015
She said she'd pay me back during the trip, but didn't. I've tried to bring it up, but she kind of brushed over that and now seems to have forgotten. I'm not quite sure how to bring it up without sounding petty.
Asking for what you are owed is not petty. You may feel that a friend wouldn't press another friend to pay what they owe. You need to ask yourself how much of a friend someone is who gets a friend to pay for things and then 'forgets' to pay them back.
As ovvl says, politely bring it up again - her reaction will tell you how much of a friend she really is.
posted by HiroProtagonist at 6:49 PM on April 9, 2015 [10 favorites]
Asking for what you are owed is not petty. You may feel that a friend wouldn't press another friend to pay what they owe. You need to ask yourself how much of a friend someone is who gets a friend to pay for things and then 'forgets' to pay them back.
As ovvl says, politely bring it up again - her reaction will tell you how much of a friend she really is.
posted by HiroProtagonist at 6:49 PM on April 9, 2015 [10 favorites]
Traveling can bring out unexpected weirdness and also group dynamics can be strange for no good reason. I have friends I absolutely don't travel with and friends I don't pair with certain other friends if I can help it.
Ask for the money you are owed and don't travel with these two again. I'd take a break from both of them for a while. If you want you could try hanging out one-on-one again after that, but ... just because you can see a lot of good in someone does not mean they will be a good friend to you.
posted by bunderful at 7:08 PM on April 9, 2015 [9 favorites]
Ask for the money you are owed and don't travel with these two again. I'd take a break from both of them for a while. If you want you could try hanging out one-on-one again after that, but ... just because you can see a lot of good in someone does not mean they will be a good friend to you.
posted by bunderful at 7:08 PM on April 9, 2015 [9 favorites]
I'm going to help you out here...
Sarah and Mindy are not very nice to you. Do the fade and stop thinking of them as friends. They are acquaintances, people you choose to hang out with from time to time.
Friends don't treat you like a wallet, like a third wheel, and they don't act moody in your company or brush you off when they owe you money. Got it?
Now.
The money for Sarah's train ticket? That's what I like to call Fuck You Money (tm). That's the money I pay to get rid of shitty obnoxious people from my life. Sure, Sarah thinks she got over on you - but she didn't. For the price of a train ticket and a lunch, you just learned that Sarah is not a person worthy of your precious time or effort. Your are going to save heaps of time and emotion you would have otherwise wasted on her. This goes for both Sarah and Minday. Whatever the cost of that ticket and lunch, ridding yourself of any illusion that either one of these people are trustworthy or quality folks was a bargain.
I don't see what you could have done differently where Mindy was concerned because that girl was ungracious towards you. That's not how you behave on vacation with someone! And sure, learning to ask assholes for the money they owe you is a great skill to learn, but you shouldn't have to remind friends to pay you back. In other words - don't sweat these two. They have poor manners and they have problems. That's not your problem. You're just fine.
posted by jbenben at 7:31 PM on April 9, 2015 [21 favorites]
Sarah and Mindy are not very nice to you. Do the fade and stop thinking of them as friends. They are acquaintances, people you choose to hang out with from time to time.
Friends don't treat you like a wallet, like a third wheel, and they don't act moody in your company or brush you off when they owe you money. Got it?
Now.
The money for Sarah's train ticket? That's what I like to call Fuck You Money (tm). That's the money I pay to get rid of shitty obnoxious people from my life. Sure, Sarah thinks she got over on you - but she didn't. For the price of a train ticket and a lunch, you just learned that Sarah is not a person worthy of your precious time or effort. Your are going to save heaps of time and emotion you would have otherwise wasted on her. This goes for both Sarah and Minday. Whatever the cost of that ticket and lunch, ridding yourself of any illusion that either one of these people are trustworthy or quality folks was a bargain.
I don't see what you could have done differently where Mindy was concerned because that girl was ungracious towards you. That's not how you behave on vacation with someone! And sure, learning to ask assholes for the money they owe you is a great skill to learn, but you shouldn't have to remind friends to pay you back. In other words - don't sweat these two. They have poor manners and they have problems. That's not your problem. You're just fine.
posted by jbenben at 7:31 PM on April 9, 2015 [21 favorites]
One thing to keep in mind is that three is an awful number, so much so that someone (my mom?) warned me about it as a kid. With three, at any moment, someone is probably feeling left out.
posted by salvia at 7:37 PM on April 9, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by salvia at 7:37 PM on April 9, 2015 [6 favorites]
Yeah, I agree with what most people are saying above. But also, even though I know this will be hard for you to change because of your depression, you seem to be at least partway convinced that you are not a person that is worth hanging out with. That you need to buy people snacks, lunches etc even though they have been not behaving well towards you, perhaps as some kind of bribe so that they will continue to hang out with you at all.
It's far easier said than done to change the way you feel about yourself. But the very least you can do is to stop trying to bribe or appease people who aren't treating you with basic decency. Because no matter what you think of yourself, I promise you're worth more than that.
Give these girls a rest. You are actually better off spending quality time with yourself than continuing to hang out with these two. If you are determined to hang on to them despite everything, definitely do not hang out with the two of them together anymore.
posted by Athanassiel at 8:35 PM on April 9, 2015 [7 favorites]
It's far easier said than done to change the way you feel about yourself. But the very least you can do is to stop trying to bribe or appease people who aren't treating you with basic decency. Because no matter what you think of yourself, I promise you're worth more than that.
Give these girls a rest. You are actually better off spending quality time with yourself than continuing to hang out with these two. If you are determined to hang on to them despite everything, definitely do not hang out with the two of them together anymore.
posted by Athanassiel at 8:35 PM on April 9, 2015 [7 favorites]
Oh, this is it right here:
I'll spend hours (literally) talking to them, helping them get through their problems even when I have things of my own to do
My "friend" who used me like this was just looking for more therapy than she wanted to pay for. We are no longer friends. Ain't nobody got time for that shit.
I look back on that "friendship" and am still angry at how many hours I spent sitting there listening to her babble about her frankly ridiculous issues. Worst part? When I called her on it (gently, of course) she claimed she never had those conversations with me. So, not even not thanking me - she literally pretended I didn't give her the gift of my time.
Time is precious. We have very little of it. Do not waste it on users like these gals.
posted by sockermom at 9:38 PM on April 9, 2015 [8 favorites]
I'll spend hours (literally) talking to them, helping them get through their problems even when I have things of my own to do
My "friend" who used me like this was just looking for more therapy than she wanted to pay for. We are no longer friends. Ain't nobody got time for that shit.
I look back on that "friendship" and am still angry at how many hours I spent sitting there listening to her babble about her frankly ridiculous issues. Worst part? When I called her on it (gently, of course) she claimed she never had those conversations with me. So, not even not thanking me - she literally pretended I didn't give her the gift of my time.
Time is precious. We have very little of it. Do not waste it on users like these gals.
posted by sockermom at 9:38 PM on April 9, 2015 [8 favorites]
You may come off as a tad desperate, from everything you've described. It can be hard to have a balanced-feeling friendship with someone who always wants to hang out and always wants to talk about deep thoughts and is always really really happy to spend time together. These all seem like virtues! But something deep in human social-animal-instinct is kind of put off by it, completely unconsciously.
It might help to take a half-step back - not to drop them, but just to give the relationship a little space and then re-connect with them as equals. Not as much doing things for them, not as much giving and availability and listening. Spending some time with them 1:1 is totally a fine thing if you want to do it, but I wouldn't be the one who's always getting the snacks and things - if snacks are really important to them, they will occasionally take initiative to buy them, and if it's not really important to them, you shouldn't feel a need to put out the effort. That kind of thing.
posted by Lady Li at 10:43 PM on April 9, 2015 [4 favorites]
It might help to take a half-step back - not to drop them, but just to give the relationship a little space and then re-connect with them as equals. Not as much doing things for them, not as much giving and availability and listening. Spending some time with them 1:1 is totally a fine thing if you want to do it, but I wouldn't be the one who's always getting the snacks and things - if snacks are really important to them, they will occasionally take initiative to buy them, and if it's not really important to them, you shouldn't feel a need to put out the effort. That kind of thing.
posted by Lady Li at 10:43 PM on April 9, 2015 [4 favorites]
Great advice above. Re the train ticket, I would send Sarah an e-mail saying something like "Just squaring up the finances after the weekend. Your train ticket was XX dollars. How would you like to reimburse me, check or PayPal?" She might ignore your message and you might decide not to pursue it, but if she does that, you both really know where you stand, ie she is a user and you were her mark.
posted by rpfields at 12:03 AM on April 10, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by rpfields at 12:03 AM on April 10, 2015 [5 favorites]
I just wanted to chime in and say, as icky as all this is to read and work through, it will make you be a better friend and have better relationships in the future. That's the part that's easy to forget, but I've stumbled awkwardly through some very similar stuff (I know from feeling petty! But that feeling is generally a message from my gut that something ain't right) and in the long term, dealing with it now is really helpful.
posted by Gin and Broadband at 12:38 AM on April 10, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by Gin and Broadband at 12:38 AM on April 10, 2015 [5 favorites]
This is the way people treat you when they don't respect you. You need to stop being a doormat. They treat you badly, you don't dare say anything and instead you buy them stuff. You let them get away with not repaying you.
I think these girls are bad friends, yes. But I think you will attract a better class of friends if you become more articulate about what you need from people, and if you call them on it when they fail to act respectfully.
Start by taking a firm stand. Let your friend know that you expect the money back. Don't be wishy washy about it or couch it in mollifying terms. Let her see you are serious.
And be prepared to walk away from her if she weasels her way out of it.
posted by Omnomnom at 3:28 AM on April 10, 2015 [8 favorites]
I think these girls are bad friends, yes. But I think you will attract a better class of friends if you become more articulate about what you need from people, and if you call them on it when they fail to act respectfully.
Start by taking a firm stand. Let your friend know that you expect the money back. Don't be wishy washy about it or couch it in mollifying terms. Let her see you are serious.
And be prepared to walk away from her if she weasels her way out of it.
posted by Omnomnom at 3:28 AM on April 10, 2015 [8 favorites]
These people make you feel bad. It doesn't matter why. They just make you feel bad. Do yourself a favor and stop hanging around with people who make you feel bad. And certainly quit paying for the privilege.
It sounds to me like Mindy didn't want you there, and really wanted it to be just her and Sarah. How did it end up that the three of you were together? Did it have anything to do with the fact that you paid for part of the trip?
>She said she'd pay me back during the trip, but didn't. I've tried to bring it up, but she kind of brushed over that and now seems to have forgotten. I'm not quite sure how to bring it up without sounding petty.
She owes you money. That's not petty. Money is important. She's acting like it doesn't matter. It does. Would she throw down that much money for you, and not expect you to pay her back? Probably not. Why not? Because money is really important, and she knows it.
I don't think you sound petty. Something is wrong here, and your gut won't let you forget it. These people are treating you disrespectfully, and that's on them. But...you're also engaging in behaviors that make it really easy for them to do that.
I think you should stop buying people things (other than the standard things like birthday gifts). I think if you stop doing that, then you'll quickly learn who's your real friend and who isn't. If you want to hang out with someone, but you know that person doesn't have much money, then suggest doing something for free, like going to a park, or a local festival, or just hanging out at home. If you find this really difficult, then maybe a nice therapist could help you. If you stop buying things for Mindy and Sarah, and they magically evaporate into thin air, then that tells you a lot about why they were friends with you in the first place.
posted by sam_harms at 6:38 AM on April 10, 2015 [4 favorites]
It sounds to me like Mindy didn't want you there, and really wanted it to be just her and Sarah. How did it end up that the three of you were together? Did it have anything to do with the fact that you paid for part of the trip?
>She said she'd pay me back during the trip, but didn't. I've tried to bring it up, but she kind of brushed over that and now seems to have forgotten. I'm not quite sure how to bring it up without sounding petty.
She owes you money. That's not petty. Money is important. She's acting like it doesn't matter. It does. Would she throw down that much money for you, and not expect you to pay her back? Probably not. Why not? Because money is really important, and she knows it.
I don't think you sound petty. Something is wrong here, and your gut won't let you forget it. These people are treating you disrespectfully, and that's on them. But...you're also engaging in behaviors that make it really easy for them to do that.
I think you should stop buying people things (other than the standard things like birthday gifts). I think if you stop doing that, then you'll quickly learn who's your real friend and who isn't. If you want to hang out with someone, but you know that person doesn't have much money, then suggest doing something for free, like going to a park, or a local festival, or just hanging out at home. If you find this really difficult, then maybe a nice therapist could help you. If you stop buying things for Mindy and Sarah, and they magically evaporate into thin air, then that tells you a lot about why they were friends with you in the first place.
posted by sam_harms at 6:38 AM on April 10, 2015 [4 favorites]
On the train ticket, I would say to Sarah: "Hey, my credit card bill is coming up so I need the money for the train ticket so I can pay it. Just a reminder, it was $X." I think putting it in the context of actual money you are paying out makes it less awkward. (Now, if the train ticket was something like $5, then I would let it go because it does feel a little petty. But this sounds like a longer trip that was a significant amount of money if tickets were purchased online with a card.)
For the friendship in general, I will say that vacationing with friends can be a weird thing and can bring out weird dynamics. Sometimes it can be amazing! And sometimes otherwise compatible people just do NOT travel well together. That doesn't mean you're overreacting, just that I tend to think a little more forgiveness is a good thing when vacationing is involved. :)
That said, it doesn't sound like you're happy about the balance in these friendships outside of the trip. I would step back for a while, let them be the ones to organize plans (if they do!) and focus on fostering and nurturing other friendships that may have a better dynamic.
On paying for lunches, etc. I'm not sure about the financial disparity between you guys. I do have some (significantly) richer friends for me, and they will tend to pick up the tab when we go to more expensive spots, while I pick up the tab if, say, we're going out for coffee. Similarly, I have sometimes bought meals for friends who I knew were in a tight spot and wanted to treat them to someone fun. I think this is a normal, nice dynamic that can be totally fine, especially when peopel are friends with folks of a different income level. However, if it's making you feel icky and taken advantage of, STOP. While this can be a fine dynamic if people approach it right, it isn't ALWAYS a good dynamic, and you certainly don't owe it to people.
posted by rainbowbrite at 6:41 AM on April 10, 2015 [1 favorite]
For the friendship in general, I will say that vacationing with friends can be a weird thing and can bring out weird dynamics. Sometimes it can be amazing! And sometimes otherwise compatible people just do NOT travel well together. That doesn't mean you're overreacting, just that I tend to think a little more forgiveness is a good thing when vacationing is involved. :)
That said, it doesn't sound like you're happy about the balance in these friendships outside of the trip. I would step back for a while, let them be the ones to organize plans (if they do!) and focus on fostering and nurturing other friendships that may have a better dynamic.
On paying for lunches, etc. I'm not sure about the financial disparity between you guys. I do have some (significantly) richer friends for me, and they will tend to pick up the tab when we go to more expensive spots, while I pick up the tab if, say, we're going out for coffee. Similarly, I have sometimes bought meals for friends who I knew were in a tight spot and wanted to treat them to someone fun. I think this is a normal, nice dynamic that can be totally fine, especially when peopel are friends with folks of a different income level. However, if it's making you feel icky and taken advantage of, STOP. While this can be a fine dynamic if people approach it right, it isn't ALWAYS a good dynamic, and you certainly don't owe it to people.
posted by rainbowbrite at 6:41 AM on April 10, 2015 [1 favorite]
I had an almost identical situation a few years ago. I considered leaving the trip early, it was so uncomfortable. Nobody will ever admit to you that you just aren't as fun (to them) as their other friends. But, they also don't have to flaunt it so blatantly. They were being rude and you are not overreacting. That said, all I could think to do following my experience like this was to be a little more cautious with this group, keep my cards a little closer to my chest, manage expectations, and don't give more than I'm likely to get back from them (emotionally, financially, commitment, all of it). It's shitty, but I guess a part of adult friendships.
posted by HoteDoge at 2:16 PM on April 10, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by HoteDoge at 2:16 PM on April 10, 2015 [2 favorites]
Lots of excellent advice here that: 1) these are not good friends for you, and Mindy actively dislikes you, 2) you're not overreacting, and 3) you need to ask for your money back from Sarah. I'd like to focus on one incident in particular you've shared here about Mindy, because it is a really common indicator to watch out for, showing that someone is acting like a friend to your face but is secretly hating on you for whatever reason. This:
Most of the conversation we did have was Mindy talking about how hilarious and fun Sarah is to be around. Then when Sarah joined us as well, she lit up and exclaimed "Oh Sarah's here!" I felt like she couldn't have been more excited to have someone else other than me to talk to.
Translation: OP, I wish you entertained me and validated me more. Lavishing specific compliments on our absent friend out of nowhere is my passive aggressive way of highlighting inadequacies of yours in order to make you feel bad, and to justify my continuing rude treatment of you on this trip. I wish I were sharing this vacation with Sarah only, and that you were not here at all right now.
I have experienced this exact behavior, as target or bystander, in various women friend groups over the years, so please believe me when I say these Mindys always turn out to be false friends towards both you and the Sarahs they have on such high pedestals. Over-complimenting a third party as a passive aggressive dig at you -- it's hard to pin down (because we think: compliments are great! I like her, too!) but when they suddenly make you feel bad, that's the tell. Watch out for Mindy.
posted by hush at 4:39 PM on April 10, 2015 [4 favorites]
Most of the conversation we did have was Mindy talking about how hilarious and fun Sarah is to be around. Then when Sarah joined us as well, she lit up and exclaimed "Oh Sarah's here!" I felt like she couldn't have been more excited to have someone else other than me to talk to.
Translation: OP, I wish you entertained me and validated me more. Lavishing specific compliments on our absent friend out of nowhere is my passive aggressive way of highlighting inadequacies of yours in order to make you feel bad, and to justify my continuing rude treatment of you on this trip. I wish I were sharing this vacation with Sarah only, and that you were not here at all right now.
I have experienced this exact behavior, as target or bystander, in various women friend groups over the years, so please believe me when I say these Mindys always turn out to be false friends towards both you and the Sarahs they have on such high pedestals. Over-complimenting a third party as a passive aggressive dig at you -- it's hard to pin down (because we think: compliments are great! I like her, too!) but when they suddenly make you feel bad, that's the tell. Watch out for Mindy.
posted by hush at 4:39 PM on April 10, 2015 [4 favorites]
Also, make sure you get your money back.
posted by discopolo at 5:49 PM on April 10, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by discopolo at 5:49 PM on April 10, 2015 [1 favorite]
There's a saying that "people treat you the way let them treat you". I understand how it feels to have a small group of friends and trying very hard to hold onto what you have. I'm in a very similar situation now, (although in my case it's my cousin that's being dismissive so I can't really cast them off), however I made it a point to tell her about her behavior and how it made me feel, which is sometimes all you can do. Women say thin gs are "fine" when you ask them all the time but how often is that really true. I know that it can hard to make new friends, especially when you depressed and you first instinct is to withdraw but keep putting yourself out there and it will get easier. New friends will not only help alleviate the depression but they may just make you realize how good friends behave.
Also, its a good policy not to lend any money that you wouldn't be ok giving as a gift.
posted by CosmicSeeker42 at 7:08 PM on April 10, 2015
Also, its a good policy not to lend any money that you wouldn't be ok giving as a gift.
posted by CosmicSeeker42 at 7:08 PM on April 10, 2015
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by discopolo at 4:59 PM on April 9, 2015 [8 favorites]