I'm happy -- what's your problem?
April 9, 2015 12:04 PM Subscribe
I'm ending a postdoc, and accepted an academic job that I'm excited about, with the bonus that it's located in the same city as my spouse. It wasn't my first choice, but was high on my list. Sadly, my colleagues are not reacting positively -- the most common comments are "well, at least you get to move to [spouse's city]!" and "it could be worse!". I'm bewildered and hurt, since it's not a bad job in any sense. How do I react to such comments to explain that I am happy about it, and that it's a good option for me, without sounding defensive?
The school is reasonably elite and well-known in this part of the country, though not as reputed as my current institution. There is a lot of variance in the nature and quality of jobs that other postdocs in the department have got, and I think mine is at least above average.
It may be relevant that I was somewhat pessimistic about the whole job search process, and they probably picked up on it. I realized I was downplaying things like going on campus interviews (which are not trivial to get) when other people started tooting their horn about nabbing a Skype interview -- of which I had many!
My concern about their reaction is partly because of pride, but mostly for practical career reasons. Academia is a small world, and I don't think it's a good idea to be perceived as a failure by my current colleagues. These are people who have been very nice and supportive, and are not competing with me, so there's no ill-will behind their comments.
The school is reasonably elite and well-known in this part of the country, though not as reputed as my current institution. There is a lot of variance in the nature and quality of jobs that other postdocs in the department have got, and I think mine is at least above average.
It may be relevant that I was somewhat pessimistic about the whole job search process, and they probably picked up on it. I realized I was downplaying things like going on campus interviews (which are not trivial to get) when other people started tooting their horn about nabbing a Skype interview -- of which I had many!
My concern about their reaction is partly because of pride, but mostly for practical career reasons. Academia is a small world, and I don't think it's a good idea to be perceived as a failure by my current colleagues. These are people who have been very nice and supportive, and are not competing with me, so there's no ill-will behind their comments.
Just answer "Yes, Partner and I are very excited to be in the same city." or "The students at School are supposed to be excellent." or "School is investing a lot into its research profile and I'm excited to be a part of that." And just ignore them. Academics aren't know for their social tact nor are they good at dealing with less-than-optimal placements. Don't stress about this. And CONGRATS!
posted by k8t at 12:14 PM on April 9, 2015 [11 favorites]
posted by k8t at 12:14 PM on April 9, 2015 [11 favorites]
First, that is super obnoxious. Keep in mind (and I say this as an academic) that academics tend to lack social skills and it is probably more about that than about maliciousness, at least if you haven't identified other maliciousness in your department.
Next, I'm curious what your tone is when you're sharing this news with people. Are you saying it sort of neutrally, or "by the way" or are you really sharing your excitement? I ended up with a job for next year that is objectively sort of so-so but subjectively I am actually really excited about it and think it will be a good fit. And so when I've shared the news with people in my department, I've phrased it as "Hey, great news, I'm super excited that I will be doing X next year! Y and Z about this job will be so excellent for me." And people have responded to that really positively, with at least outward excitement for me (who knows what they really think, but also who cares as academics also tend to be elitist assholes). A couple of closer friends have had a one liner sort of thing like "You're good with this?" or "Are you ok about [other option that didn't work out] not working out?", but once I've said, "No, I'm good and I'm excited" (which is true), they've totally dropped that and shared in my being excited.
So, long story short, if you're introducing this job sort of neutrally like "Hey, just wanted to let you know, I got a job at X in my spouses city..." people may be taking that cue. On the other hand, if you're ALREADY saying "Hey, I wanted to share that I am SO EXCITED to have gotten an offer from [College] for the fall. I think my interest in [thing] will be such a great fit for this department!" and people are STILL responding "It could be worse," they are being super rude and awkward, and you should feel free to call them on it. Like, do a visible WTF double take and say "Hey, I'm actually really excited about this job!"
Finally, I would keep in mind that to the extent this is coming from non-professors, it probably has more to do with THEIR insecurities about jobs they did or didn't get and/or fear about the future. Doesn't make it ok, but my guess is that's where it's coming from, especially if this position is an above average placement in your department/field.
posted by rainbowbrite at 12:16 PM on April 9, 2015 [6 favorites]
Next, I'm curious what your tone is when you're sharing this news with people. Are you saying it sort of neutrally, or "by the way" or are you really sharing your excitement? I ended up with a job for next year that is objectively sort of so-so but subjectively I am actually really excited about it and think it will be a good fit. And so when I've shared the news with people in my department, I've phrased it as "Hey, great news, I'm super excited that I will be doing X next year! Y and Z about this job will be so excellent for me." And people have responded to that really positively, with at least outward excitement for me (who knows what they really think, but also who cares as academics also tend to be elitist assholes). A couple of closer friends have had a one liner sort of thing like "You're good with this?" or "Are you ok about [other option that didn't work out] not working out?", but once I've said, "No, I'm good and I'm excited" (which is true), they've totally dropped that and shared in my being excited.
So, long story short, if you're introducing this job sort of neutrally like "Hey, just wanted to let you know, I got a job at X in my spouses city..." people may be taking that cue. On the other hand, if you're ALREADY saying "Hey, I wanted to share that I am SO EXCITED to have gotten an offer from [College] for the fall. I think my interest in [thing] will be such a great fit for this department!" and people are STILL responding "It could be worse," they are being super rude and awkward, and you should feel free to call them on it. Like, do a visible WTF double take and say "Hey, I'm actually really excited about this job!"
Finally, I would keep in mind that to the extent this is coming from non-professors, it probably has more to do with THEIR insecurities about jobs they did or didn't get and/or fear about the future. Doesn't make it ok, but my guess is that's where it's coming from, especially if this position is an above average placement in your department/field.
posted by rainbowbrite at 12:16 PM on April 9, 2015 [6 favorites]
d00d (or d00dette) you got a (tenure-track?) job at an (somewhat) elite institution that you're happy about AND you solved the 2 body problem?
stop worrying about your stuck-up peers and start writing grant applications while you are on your hot luck streak
PS CONGRATS!
posted by lalochezia at 12:20 PM on April 9, 2015 [65 favorites]
stop worrying about your stuck-up peers and start writing grant applications while you are on your hot luck streak
PS CONGRATS!
posted by lalochezia at 12:20 PM on April 9, 2015 [65 favorites]
Definitely don't downplay the position too much when you mention it, in case that is what they're picking up on. If you still get rhe same reactions, in your replies, maybe focus on the positive (yes, I am thrilled to be moving closer to spouse!), and throw in a bit about growing the program there? I.e. They're providing me with great support so I'm looking forward to bringing blank to the table. Redirects them from thinking of you as "settling" (which it sounds like you're not) to being in control of the situation.
And congratulations!
posted by ghost phoneme at 12:24 PM on April 9, 2015
And congratulations!
posted by ghost phoneme at 12:24 PM on April 9, 2015
Oh good grief, people can be so awful. You might be unconsciously using a tone that is sort of .. questioning/unsure sounding, as though you are inviting commentary. "So, I got this offer at XYZ College in {City}. It's where my spouse has a job." vs. "I got a job at XYZ College in City!!! I'm so happy! It's even in the same city as my spouse, it is so perfect!" If you are already moreso doing the latter and they are making these kinds of comments, then I would just make a weird face and say "Well, I'm happy about it, thanks." and walk away to your new awesome life.
Congratulations!!!
posted by gatorae at 12:25 PM on April 9, 2015
Congratulations!!!
posted by gatorae at 12:25 PM on April 9, 2015
This kind of insane hierarchy-consciousness is probably the single worst thing about academic life. It is utterly poisonous. I'm sorry people are acting this way. The only consolation is that the same kind of attitude will make them hate themselves for every "failure" like getting published in the second-best journal, getting tenure at the second-best school, getting the second-best office, on and on. Pity them, because their priorities are all screwed up and it will make them unhappy until they figure it out. Grad school is a process of socializing young academics to treat themselves and others this way, and it's something you will do well to distance yourself mentally from. Hold this attitude with tweezers and examine it; don't let it have any power over you.
The only thing you can do is be positive, say you're excited and happy, maybe name the positives-for-you about the school if your colleagues aren't familiar with it. And take their reaction with breezy unconcern.
You've won the prize - a good job in the place where your partner lives? Fucking awesome. That is outstanding, congratulations, kick ass.
posted by LobsterMitten at 12:26 PM on April 9, 2015 [8 favorites]
The only thing you can do is be positive, say you're excited and happy, maybe name the positives-for-you about the school if your colleagues aren't familiar with it. And take their reaction with breezy unconcern.
You've won the prize - a good job in the place where your partner lives? Fucking awesome. That is outstanding, congratulations, kick ass.
posted by LobsterMitten at 12:26 PM on April 9, 2015 [8 favorites]
It's sour grapes. They see you rollin', they hatin'.
posted by scruss at 12:28 PM on April 9, 2015 [32 favorites]
posted by scruss at 12:28 PM on April 9, 2015 [32 favorites]
Congrats on your job!
You sound like you care a lot about what your colleagues think. You say "Academia is a small world, and I don't think it's a good idea to be perceived as a failure by my current colleagues." There is nothing you can SAY to change your colleagues' perception of you. The only way to demonstrate to others that this is a great option for you is in your ACTIONS, by embracing it, being happy and living well.
I actually think it doesn't matter too much what your colleagues think, and that being overly concerned about it will have a net negative effect on you. You are concerned about seeming defensive. Your questions reads very defensive to me. If you were not a bit insecure, you'd be like "Ha ha these dum dums don't know how good I have it!" Own your decisions and choices. Don't second guess yourself. Do you. :D
posted by bimbam at 12:28 PM on April 9, 2015 [1 favorite]
You sound like you care a lot about what your colleagues think. You say "Academia is a small world, and I don't think it's a good idea to be perceived as a failure by my current colleagues." There is nothing you can SAY to change your colleagues' perception of you. The only way to demonstrate to others that this is a great option for you is in your ACTIONS, by embracing it, being happy and living well.
I actually think it doesn't matter too much what your colleagues think, and that being overly concerned about it will have a net negative effect on you. You are concerned about seeming defensive. Your questions reads very defensive to me. If you were not a bit insecure, you'd be like "Ha ha these dum dums don't know how good I have it!" Own your decisions and choices. Don't second guess yourself. Do you. :D
posted by bimbam at 12:28 PM on April 9, 2015 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Thanks for all the pep talk and suggestions! I should clarify that some of these people are accomplished tenured professors, so there's certainly no jealousy or envy on their part! They have been generally nice to me so I doubt that it's malicious, and I respect them, so I guess their reactions do make me question the merits of the job as well...
posted by redlines at 12:33 PM on April 9, 2015
posted by redlines at 12:33 PM on April 9, 2015
Congratulations, you guys captured a unicorn alive! Maybe your advisers don't realize how hard it is to balance work and family that way in an academic career? Either way, smile at them, say you're happy, and go forth and be happy.
They see you rollin' and they be hating sounds about right. I agree: respond cheerfully like you swallowed the canary, because frankly you did. I have advised about 20 PhD students in my career, most of whom have gone on to good careers, and I am always rooting for them to take the gig that allows them to live happily in a place they like, with a job that doesn't demand their every last ounce of dedication, and where they can have the life they aspire to (including partnership, children, etc.) over the gig that everyone says is the biggest "get," if they ever confront that decision (and quite a few have, if not for the first job, than for the second or third).
If you were in my department and told me this news I'd be nothing but congratulatory. And thrilled for you.
Sometimes more senior academics don't know the world has changed and it's harder to land in a balanced life, or they come from a culture where if you aren't seizing every last opportunity and sacrificing everything for your career, you must not be serious. Luckily that's changing a lot, and work/life and career/family balance are much more discussed and recognized as noble aspirations. Getting any decent job is much harder. Getting one that works for your preferred way of living is a huge accomplishment.
If they persist in negating your decision, just say "a happy scholar is a more productive scholar."
Congrats again.
posted by spitbull at 12:35 PM on April 9, 2015 [14 favorites]
They see you rollin' and they be hating sounds about right. I agree: respond cheerfully like you swallowed the canary, because frankly you did. I have advised about 20 PhD students in my career, most of whom have gone on to good careers, and I am always rooting for them to take the gig that allows them to live happily in a place they like, with a job that doesn't demand their every last ounce of dedication, and where they can have the life they aspire to (including partnership, children, etc.) over the gig that everyone says is the biggest "get," if they ever confront that decision (and quite a few have, if not for the first job, than for the second or third).
If you were in my department and told me this news I'd be nothing but congratulatory. And thrilled for you.
Sometimes more senior academics don't know the world has changed and it's harder to land in a balanced life, or they come from a culture where if you aren't seizing every last opportunity and sacrificing everything for your career, you must not be serious. Luckily that's changing a lot, and work/life and career/family balance are much more discussed and recognized as noble aspirations. Getting any decent job is much harder. Getting one that works for your preferred way of living is a huge accomplishment.
If they persist in negating your decision, just say "a happy scholar is a more productive scholar."
Congrats again.
posted by spitbull at 12:35 PM on April 9, 2015 [14 favorites]
If you're worried they know something you don't about the school, by all means, ask them. "Oh? Why's that? I am pretty excited, is there something I don't realize?" It could be there's some labor problem there, like they'll make you teach overloads or something.
But I've known plenty of academics who would react this way if you got a job at e.g., one of the "lesser Ivies" - like, "oh, a hugely prestigious and well-funded position, working with smart well-prepared students and great colleagues? It's no Harvard, but I suppose it could be worse." People are just really, really screwed up in the head about status. That kind of thinking is its own punishment.
posted by LobsterMitten at 12:43 PM on April 9, 2015 [4 favorites]
But I've known plenty of academics who would react this way if you got a job at e.g., one of the "lesser Ivies" - like, "oh, a hugely prestigious and well-funded position, working with smart well-prepared students and great colleagues? It's no Harvard, but I suppose it could be worse." People are just really, really screwed up in the head about status. That kind of thinking is its own punishment.
posted by LobsterMitten at 12:43 PM on April 9, 2015 [4 favorites]
And yes, to be clear by "hating," I don't mean they are being mean. It's more likely jealousy. A lot of us in the upper ranks where we get to comment on the successes of our students and postdocs have given up a lot of personal happiness and other goals to get here. Even in my generation (mid-career, Phd in the 90s) not many of us heard about, or had models for, not making our careers the be all and end all, or wearing the sign of ambition as a proud neglect of any other motivations. More than a few of us have paid a price that looms larger as you get older. I can imagine a twinge of jealousy entering into hearing the news that an advisee was rejecting that model for a healthier life.
posted by spitbull at 12:44 PM on April 9, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by spitbull at 12:44 PM on April 9, 2015 [1 favorite]
Is it widely known among the people you've been interacting with that this institution wasn't your first choice? People could be responding to this.
posted by mr_roboto at 12:48 PM on April 9, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by mr_roboto at 12:48 PM on April 9, 2015 [2 favorites]
Oh and in the old days, it was assumed that the academic's "spouse" (typically a woman in this mythology) was supposed to make the sacrifices for the academic in the family, a structure that was decidedly gendered in favor of male academics and in some ways still is. One of the sexist hits on women scholars -- which one occasionally still hears from older male academics -- is a fear that they will put family over ambition, as if that were a negative thing, or unthinkable. Of course that easier to say when your own experience was a spouse who gave up (usually her) ambitions to support your career. Again, those days are fading fast, but the culture still persists, and especially pressures women academics.
posted by spitbull at 12:54 PM on April 9, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by spitbull at 12:54 PM on April 9, 2015 [1 favorite]
How senior are they? Some senior academics can be really out of touch with today's market. One prof told me "good people always get jobs" not five minutes after we had discussed an excellently qualified colleague who had left the field due to not getting a job. Another, after hearing I got a site interview this year, said "oh, so tell me about how you got it? Do you know someone there?" as if I were incapable of getting an interview from the merits of my application alone.
I actually find my same age colleagues to be more supportive, because we all know what it is like. Also a higher percentage of the people, particularly men, my age have had their own two body problems and would understand what a great unicorn you've found (True regardless of your gender).
Anyhow I second the idea to lead with awesome stuff about the job, and mention the spouse second, esespecially to more senior folk. There is often an assumption that one has sacrificed if one successfully solves the two body problem, so leading with that could give people the wrong idea (That is, it might sound to them like *you* think you have sacrificed.)
posted by nat at 12:59 PM on April 9, 2015 [1 favorite]
I actually find my same age colleagues to be more supportive, because we all know what it is like. Also a higher percentage of the people, particularly men, my age have had their own two body problems and would understand what a great unicorn you've found (True regardless of your gender).
Anyhow I second the idea to lead with awesome stuff about the job, and mention the spouse second, esespecially to more senior folk. There is often an assumption that one has sacrificed if one successfully solves the two body problem, so leading with that could give people the wrong idea (That is, it might sound to them like *you* think you have sacrificed.)
posted by nat at 12:59 PM on April 9, 2015 [1 favorite]
Seconding nat's post. Older faculty can be REALLY out of touch with the current job market and/or may have had a trailing spouse and so never had to solve the two-body problem, so they don't realize what an amazing accomplishment your job offer is.
posted by MsMolly at 1:03 PM on April 9, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by MsMolly at 1:03 PM on April 9, 2015 [2 favorites]
I disagree that it's only sour grapes (particularly if your long-tenured supervisors, who are not competing with you, also sound disappointed). The only real wan to find out what they're thinking is to ask them. You should seek the advice of a couple senior / powerful folks at your present institution but without conceding that your current offer is bad or insufficient or whatever - open by saying "I'm excited about my offer from X, looking forward to living with my spouse, what do you think I should look out for next?" or "what do you think are some good next steps for me?" Their responses will tell you how seriously bad other peer academics think your situation is, and why exactly, and you can make decisions accordingly. Even if you're not really open to a "next step" right now and just want to build your career at X, it won't hurt to listen and figure out what they are thinking.
posted by Joey Buttafoucault at 1:03 PM on April 9, 2015
posted by Joey Buttafoucault at 1:03 PM on April 9, 2015
Congratulations on the job! That's something to celebrate!
Thirding nat's comments. I don't think the comments are born of any specific jealousy or sour grapes. If anything, I think moments like these just highlight the weird cultural bubble that is academia. Basically all of the younger academics I know have seriously struggled with the two-body problem, but for whatever reason, people don't seem to get it unless they have been through it, and that especially includes the senior folks.
I chose to become a non-academic "trailing spouse" (much as I hate that phrase), and with that path comes a terrifying mess of crazy cultural baggage and judgment. "Ugh, I thought you were smart. How could you sacrifice all of your career prospects for a relationship?" followed up with "But you are so lucky to have a man to rely on! You must cook for him all the time!" levels of crazy. The academic job market is brutal and fosters a lot of insane attitudes, so don't take it personally and recognize that most folks on the outside aren't necessarily coming from a sane frame of reference.
posted by Diagonalize at 1:28 PM on April 9, 2015 [2 favorites]
Thirding nat's comments. I don't think the comments are born of any specific jealousy or sour grapes. If anything, I think moments like these just highlight the weird cultural bubble that is academia. Basically all of the younger academics I know have seriously struggled with the two-body problem, but for whatever reason, people don't seem to get it unless they have been through it, and that especially includes the senior folks.
I chose to become a non-academic "trailing spouse" (much as I hate that phrase), and with that path comes a terrifying mess of crazy cultural baggage and judgment. "Ugh, I thought you were smart. How could you sacrifice all of your career prospects for a relationship?" followed up with "But you are so lucky to have a man to rely on! You must cook for him all the time!" levels of crazy. The academic job market is brutal and fosters a lot of insane attitudes, so don't take it personally and recognize that most folks on the outside aren't necessarily coming from a sane frame of reference.
posted by Diagonalize at 1:28 PM on April 9, 2015 [2 favorites]
Big brains holding small minds.
Academics, especially at elite institutions, tend to view everything as a ladder. Step up or step down. If you are going from Columbia to Duke, people at Columbia will likely be bitches about it, but that doesn't in any way devalue what Duke is.
posted by French Fry at 1:37 PM on April 9, 2015 [3 favorites]
Academics, especially at elite institutions, tend to view everything as a ladder. Step up or step down. If you are going from Columbia to Duke, people at Columbia will likely be bitches about it, but that doesn't in any way devalue what Duke is.
posted by French Fry at 1:37 PM on April 9, 2015 [3 favorites]
If you're at an R1 university, their reaction to you going to anywhere but an R1 university is going to be, "I'm sorry for your loss." Because they can't conceive that anyone would be satisfied with, much less desire, exactly the career they have.
I'd just pop right back with: "Actually, the Foo Department at Newcity College is really great. I'll be able to continue my research in blah, and I'm super excited to be able to teach classes in baz, and they offered me a very generous package."
posted by BrashTech at 2:12 PM on April 9, 2015
I'd just pop right back with: "Actually, the Foo Department at Newcity College is really great. I'll be able to continue my research in blah, and I'm super excited to be able to teach classes in baz, and they offered me a very generous package."
posted by BrashTech at 2:12 PM on April 9, 2015
I remember my grad advisor being less than thrilled when one of the lab postdocs got a tenure-track professorship at a small liberal arts college. I overheard him saying something like "Jeff could have been a really good scientist" with the implication that once you work for a teaching school you've jumped the track and will never do real science again.
As others have said, reinforce that you're excited about the job and the school, and that you've got great plans for research, and that you plan on staying in touch via conferences and all.
posted by aimedwander at 2:13 PM on April 9, 2015
As others have said, reinforce that you're excited about the job and the school, and that you've got great plans for research, and that you plan on staying in touch via conferences and all.
posted by aimedwander at 2:13 PM on April 9, 2015
Hah, academics are seriously the worst sometimes.
not as reputed as my current institution.
That's all this is. Academics are ladder climbers by and large. I got a job at a comparable institution to the place where I got my phd and omg the insane declarations from my dean and other faculty! My friend got an amazing job at a smaller school that is teaching oriented and literally no one said anything. And don't mention those who will not be named - the folks who went to (gasp) industry.
Any opinions your colleagues have about your personal life are just not worth listening to. This right here is why I share as close to zero as possible about my personal life with my academic colleagues. They use it as a way to compare themselves to you and to judge and feel better and as a distraction from their jobs. Lots of academics literally have NOTHING outside of their jobs and the drama they create with or about their colleagues.
Best of luck and congrats!!!
posted by sockermom at 2:36 PM on April 9, 2015 [1 favorite]
not as reputed as my current institution.
That's all this is. Academics are ladder climbers by and large. I got a job at a comparable institution to the place where I got my phd and omg the insane declarations from my dean and other faculty! My friend got an amazing job at a smaller school that is teaching oriented and literally no one said anything. And don't mention those who will not be named - the folks who went to (gasp) industry.
Any opinions your colleagues have about your personal life are just not worth listening to. This right here is why I share as close to zero as possible about my personal life with my academic colleagues. They use it as a way to compare themselves to you and to judge and feel better and as a distraction from their jobs. Lots of academics literally have NOTHING outside of their jobs and the drama they create with or about their colleagues.
Best of luck and congrats!!!
posted by sockermom at 2:36 PM on April 9, 2015 [1 favorite]
You know, I read this as they are going to miss you and assume that you too, will miss them and the fine organisation you work for, and are trying to cheer you both up about the impending loss. It's exactly the sort of thing I would do, and never realise how bitter, jealous and nasty I sounded.
posted by b33j at 3:06 PM on April 9, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by b33j at 3:06 PM on April 9, 2015 [2 favorites]
Is there a cross-cultural language problem here? If you come from a very upbeat language culture, "It could be worse!" sounds quite damning-with-faint-praise, but in England/Scotland for example it is about as rah-rah-rah as we get.
posted by Jabberwocky at 3:16 PM on April 9, 2015
posted by Jabberwocky at 3:16 PM on April 9, 2015
If you are going from Columbia to Duke, people at Columbia will likely be bitches about it,
Not really, not these days. Lots of prominent people move between places like Columbia and Duke. In fact I would say there is *zero* status difference in that particular pairing in most fields I know, and in fact that Duke is considered more prestigious (based on quality and fame of faculty, not to mention better salaries) in quite a few of them. Certainly any Ivy considers Duke among "the competition" in a direct sense -- an equal, or as we say, a peer.
I think there is a bit of projecting going on in this thread by people who are not academics who imagine academics as basically country club members looking down their noses at the club down the road and closer to town. Yes, it's a status conscious business, but the really fine grained stuff that drives debates about the prestige of undergraduate degrees among social climbers, for example, doesn't really register at the level of PhD placement (at least in the humanities and social sciences). In my particular discipline, if you go from a PhD in any top R1 (about 7-10 really top PhD programs nationally, some of which are public institutions) to a TT job at any other R1, public or private, it's considered just about the same thing in my field. You might incur some status penalty for going to a liberal arts college, even a very good one, where you won't teach graduate students, which many academics consider essential to maintaining your own development as a scholar/scientist. Or to a really average public university (that is, not an R1). But in my (Ivy) department and (top 4 or 5) program, we would absolutely consider a placement at Duke a score to celebrate and as going to a peer institution in every respect. No one cares about "prestige" in the abstract sense that gets you ranked higher in U.S. News and World Report. We do care about the prestige of the department, program, or discipline as represented at any given university, but frankly one of the best programs in my field is at [large midwestern public institution], for example, and we've placed a bunch of people there over the last few years. I can guarantee you none of my fellow senior colleagues even considered looking even slightly down our nose at that. It's not that a job is a job, but that a "good" job is not a matter of where the institution ranks on some social register. It's about whether it's a good place for our graduate(s) to grow their careers and hence our standing as a department/program and as individual advisers. Slightly less true in more traditional branches of the humanities, to be sure (we're sort of out there on the humanities/social science divide).
We all know you can't eat ivy. And we know we'd be dead if we relied only on only the top few PhD programs to employ all of each other's graduates. The numbers would not even come close to aligning.
posted by spitbull at 5:10 PM on April 9, 2015
Not really, not these days. Lots of prominent people move between places like Columbia and Duke. In fact I would say there is *zero* status difference in that particular pairing in most fields I know, and in fact that Duke is considered more prestigious (based on quality and fame of faculty, not to mention better salaries) in quite a few of them. Certainly any Ivy considers Duke among "the competition" in a direct sense -- an equal, or as we say, a peer.
I think there is a bit of projecting going on in this thread by people who are not academics who imagine academics as basically country club members looking down their noses at the club down the road and closer to town. Yes, it's a status conscious business, but the really fine grained stuff that drives debates about the prestige of undergraduate degrees among social climbers, for example, doesn't really register at the level of PhD placement (at least in the humanities and social sciences). In my particular discipline, if you go from a PhD in any top R1 (about 7-10 really top PhD programs nationally, some of which are public institutions) to a TT job at any other R1, public or private, it's considered just about the same thing in my field. You might incur some status penalty for going to a liberal arts college, even a very good one, where you won't teach graduate students, which many academics consider essential to maintaining your own development as a scholar/scientist. Or to a really average public university (that is, not an R1). But in my (Ivy) department and (top 4 or 5) program, we would absolutely consider a placement at Duke a score to celebrate and as going to a peer institution in every respect. No one cares about "prestige" in the abstract sense that gets you ranked higher in U.S. News and World Report. We do care about the prestige of the department, program, or discipline as represented at any given university, but frankly one of the best programs in my field is at [large midwestern public institution], for example, and we've placed a bunch of people there over the last few years. I can guarantee you none of my fellow senior colleagues even considered looking even slightly down our nose at that. It's not that a job is a job, but that a "good" job is not a matter of where the institution ranks on some social register. It's about whether it's a good place for our graduate(s) to grow their careers and hence our standing as a department/program and as individual advisers. Slightly less true in more traditional branches of the humanities, to be sure (we're sort of out there on the humanities/social science divide).
We all know you can't eat ivy. And we know we'd be dead if we relied only on only the top few PhD programs to employ all of each other's graduates. The numbers would not even come close to aligning.
posted by spitbull at 5:10 PM on April 9, 2015
LobsterMitten: Grad school is a process of socializing young academics to treat themselves and others this way, and it's something you will do well to distance yourself mentally from.
THIS!!!!
A lot of us tend to assume that, because academics are smart, they must be independent-minded and sensitive and generally not susceptible to groupthink--even after academia spends every single day of our 20s disproving that theory. Competition messes with people's heads in grad school, and on the job/postdoc market, and a lot people don't even realize how much their behavior is being coded to conform to some pretty fucked-up values (overachiever + advanced analytical skills ≠ introspective.)
But guess what? You're not on the job market anymore (cue Sousa marches, unicycle-riding bears), so you don't have to play that game if you don't want to. If you want to advance your career or be viable at a bigger institution, all you need to do is publish, go to conferences, apply for grants, develop new research ideas, and just generally keep doing the awesome work that got you where you are (and if you don't want to try out for King/Queen of Elitismland every Fall, then fuck it, you already have a job.) As long as you haven't massively--and blatantly--offended anybody really important, these kinds of subliminal social games aren't going to mean much the next time you're on the market. Most people will barely remember your personality.
Also, I don't know what field you're in, but if what you do has any kind of interdisciplinary component (I assume you're in the humanities) or can be made legible to folks in related disciplines, academia doesn't have to be as tiny a world as you're making it.
posted by urufu at 5:21 PM on April 9, 2015 [1 favorite]
THIS!!!!
A lot of us tend to assume that, because academics are smart, they must be independent-minded and sensitive and generally not susceptible to groupthink--even after academia spends every single day of our 20s disproving that theory. Competition messes with people's heads in grad school, and on the job/postdoc market, and a lot people don't even realize how much their behavior is being coded to conform to some pretty fucked-up values (overachiever + advanced analytical skills ≠ introspective.)
But guess what? You're not on the job market anymore (cue Sousa marches, unicycle-riding bears), so you don't have to play that game if you don't want to. If you want to advance your career or be viable at a bigger institution, all you need to do is publish, go to conferences, apply for grants, develop new research ideas, and just generally keep doing the awesome work that got you where you are (and if you don't want to try out for King/Queen of Elitismland every Fall, then fuck it, you already have a job.) As long as you haven't massively--and blatantly--offended anybody really important, these kinds of subliminal social games aren't going to mean much the next time you're on the market. Most people will barely remember your personality.
Also, I don't know what field you're in, but if what you do has any kind of interdisciplinary component (I assume you're in the humanities) or can be made legible to folks in related disciplines, academia doesn't have to be as tiny a world as you're making it.
posted by urufu at 5:21 PM on April 9, 2015 [1 favorite]
I believe OP is in CS based on posting history, which makes a lot of the advice in this thread a little less useful because (as I said in prior comment) "prestige" is really on a program or discipline or department basis when the matter at hand is PhD placement. I am willing to bet there are very "prestigious" (as far as placement goes) CS programs at places that don't even rate for archaeology or classics.
posted by spitbull at 5:56 PM on April 9, 2015
posted by spitbull at 5:56 PM on April 9, 2015
As someone in academia, this was my first thought: Is it widely known among the people you've been interacting with that this institution wasn't your first choice? People could be responding to this.
posted by Dalby at 6:09 PM on April 9, 2015
posted by Dalby at 6:09 PM on April 9, 2015
When I was considering tenure track job positions, I consulted my doctoral advisor, my postdoc advisor, and my physics professor father. These sources of advice basically advised to take a job that was at an equivalent or 'better' university than the one that they themselves were at, and to pass on offers from places that were of 'lesser research activity' than the universities they themselves were at.
So when I got an offer from a department generally considered to be one of the top 50 in the USA for my field, my nobel prize winning doctoral advisor told me I should turn it down, while my father who teaches at an "R2 Carnegie" institution told me I would be foolish to decline an offer at an R1 in order to wait another cycle and try to get a job at a Top-5 type department.
I'm pretty happy here at the top-50 place. And my nobel prize winning doctoral advisor even came out here to give a talk once after I invited him.
posted by u2604ab at 2:01 PM on April 10, 2015
So when I got an offer from a department generally considered to be one of the top 50 in the USA for my field, my nobel prize winning doctoral advisor told me I should turn it down, while my father who teaches at an "R2 Carnegie" institution told me I would be foolish to decline an offer at an R1 in order to wait another cycle and try to get a job at a Top-5 type department.
I'm pretty happy here at the top-50 place. And my nobel prize winning doctoral advisor even came out here to give a talk once after I invited him.
posted by u2604ab at 2:01 PM on April 10, 2015
Is it possible that your colleagues who have not reacted positively might just be feeling sad that you are moving away because they will miss you?
posted by veids at 9:44 AM on April 12, 2015
posted by veids at 9:44 AM on April 12, 2015
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posted by craven_morhead at 12:13 PM on April 9, 2015 [5 favorites]