Yes, and, but ....
March 16, 2015 6:38 AM Subscribe
I've been involved in improv on and off for a while. I love improv, I always feel that it's presenting me with opportunities to grow as a person and see myself better. Plus, it's often very funny and liberating.
Except when it's not. In an improv show the other night someone initiated a domestic violence scene with me. It was the person on the team that I have never felt comfortable with, mostly because of a lot of misogynistic and homophobic jokes and subtle bullying of other people in the class. Anyway, in the scene he called me a bitch and the context was that he had just hit me, hard enough to knock me down. I was shaken and profoundly did not want to "yes and" that, but got through the scene as best I could.
I'm not sure what to do. I don't think there's any point in confronting him and I don't expect anything good would come from it (class is over and I probably won't see him again unless I seek him out). I could suggest to the instructor that in future maybe students should be advised not to initiate sexual/violent scenes with someone who is not super comfortable with them and the idea. Instead of "there's no way you can do anything wrong, ever." I can in future tell scene partners upfront that I'm not comfortable with sexual or violent scenes.
I know that if I were super-awesome and quick at improv I could flip the scene and turn it into something else, but I'm not, and anyway I sort of blanked out and couldn't think of anything but to just accept the scene. I wish I had felt that I could have just ended it - even with an audience there. (The specific game we were playing required me to stay on stage until tapped out).
Has anyone else been in this situation and managed to resolve it? What did you do? Are there any examples of improv spaces that make a specific effort to not be the kind of place where this sort of thing happens? How do they do it?
Except when it's not. In an improv show the other night someone initiated a domestic violence scene with me. It was the person on the team that I have never felt comfortable with, mostly because of a lot of misogynistic and homophobic jokes and subtle bullying of other people in the class. Anyway, in the scene he called me a bitch and the context was that he had just hit me, hard enough to knock me down. I was shaken and profoundly did not want to "yes and" that, but got through the scene as best I could.
I'm not sure what to do. I don't think there's any point in confronting him and I don't expect anything good would come from it (class is over and I probably won't see him again unless I seek him out). I could suggest to the instructor that in future maybe students should be advised not to initiate sexual/violent scenes with someone who is not super comfortable with them and the idea. Instead of "there's no way you can do anything wrong, ever." I can in future tell scene partners upfront that I'm not comfortable with sexual or violent scenes.
I know that if I were super-awesome and quick at improv I could flip the scene and turn it into something else, but I'm not, and anyway I sort of blanked out and couldn't think of anything but to just accept the scene. I wish I had felt that I could have just ended it - even with an audience there. (The specific game we were playing required me to stay on stage until tapped out).
Has anyone else been in this situation and managed to resolve it? What did you do? Are there any examples of improv spaces that make a specific effort to not be the kind of place where this sort of thing happens? How do they do it?
In the improv class I have taken, that kind of scene was explicitly off limits. Not only for the obvious reason that it might be damaging to the performer, but also because it's almost certainly not funny.
I would talk to the instructor or to the overall institution, and see if this can be made policy where you are.
posted by ocherdraco at 6:42 AM on March 16, 2015 [12 favorites]
I would talk to the instructor or to the overall institution, and see if this can be made policy where you are.
posted by ocherdraco at 6:42 AM on March 16, 2015 [12 favorites]
I have, more than once, stopped the scene, looked at my partner, and said "No, can we do something that's actually funny?"
That line always gets a laugh, the other person usually gets the hint (not much of a hint, actually), and maybe you build the scene from there.
I should add that my improv experience is most in workshops, not really performing, but I would not hesitate to use that line if I was performing in front of an audience. You don't want to use it if you don't have to, obviously. Reserve it for when you really need it.
But yes, I would maybe mention before the show any areas that you feel are taboo.
posted by bondcliff at 6:59 AM on March 16, 2015 [8 favorites]
That line always gets a laugh, the other person usually gets the hint (not much of a hint, actually), and maybe you build the scene from there.
I should add that my improv experience is most in workshops, not really performing, but I would not hesitate to use that line if I was performing in front of an audience. You don't want to use it if you don't have to, obviously. Reserve it for when you really need it.
But yes, I would maybe mention before the show any areas that you feel are taboo.
posted by bondcliff at 6:59 AM on March 16, 2015 [8 favorites]
This was a class or a show (or a class show)? If it was a class, yes, I'd absolutely talk to the instructor about it so they can keep an eye on things. In one class, a guy would go to very sexual scenes and it upset people. He was talked to. Those things stopped. Such scenes really should be done with care.
But the way to react on stage is honestly. You're an actor up there. Don't try to make it funny. It's okay to be uncomfortable. You'll grow as an actor and an improviser if you are able to steer into the scene. Remember, the other actor doesn't control shit by himself. You're both piloting this thing. That's the great thing about improv. If it makes sense for you, in a scene, to castrate him...cut off his dick.
I'd sit down with the members of your group if this isn't a class and let them know that's not the kind of show you want to do. I never really had a conversation like that with any of my groups as we self-selected people who would share our thoughts and tastes in comedy. But you can be in a jam down the line and some newbie decides he wants to try to be edgy. You can't control them, but you can control you. How would a person who is in this situation react? There's a bunch of different ways.
If you are going to break the fourth wall, then do it more creatively than "No, can we do something that's actually funny?". Because honestly, there can be great scenes (not necessarily funny) that come from a dark place. I've seen abortion scenes, murder scenes, incest scenes...all kinds of stuff...and they can be funny. And calling a teammate on the carpet right there in front of the audience is really not cool. BUT if you feel unsafe or you feel like you can't go on, then remove yourself from the scene if you absolutely must. Protect yourself always.
posted by inturnaround at 7:11 AM on March 16, 2015 [2 favorites]
But the way to react on stage is honestly. You're an actor up there. Don't try to make it funny. It's okay to be uncomfortable. You'll grow as an actor and an improviser if you are able to steer into the scene. Remember, the other actor doesn't control shit by himself. You're both piloting this thing. That's the great thing about improv. If it makes sense for you, in a scene, to castrate him...cut off his dick.
I'd sit down with the members of your group if this isn't a class and let them know that's not the kind of show you want to do. I never really had a conversation like that with any of my groups as we self-selected people who would share our thoughts and tastes in comedy. But you can be in a jam down the line and some newbie decides he wants to try to be edgy. You can't control them, but you can control you. How would a person who is in this situation react? There's a bunch of different ways.
If you are going to break the fourth wall, then do it more creatively than "No, can we do something that's actually funny?". Because honestly, there can be great scenes (not necessarily funny) that come from a dark place. I've seen abortion scenes, murder scenes, incest scenes...all kinds of stuff...and they can be funny. And calling a teammate on the carpet right there in front of the audience is really not cool. BUT if you feel unsafe or you feel like you can't go on, then remove yourself from the scene if you absolutely must. Protect yourself always.
posted by inturnaround at 7:11 AM on March 16, 2015 [2 favorites]
I absolutely would bring this up with the instructor as useful feedback they can use for future classes.
I might say something like:
I really enjoyed the class; I learned X and felt I grew in Y ways. However, I often found that Bjorn frequently chose topics and made jokes that pushed boundaries. I particularly was uncomfortable when he put me in a scene about domestic violence and called me a bitch. While pushing boundaries is a part of performing and comedy, I think it would have been helpful if we as a class had set some norms at the beginning to make sure we were all in agreement about what kind of scenes we were comfortable doing.
You guys weren't professionals, you were students and it's the instructor's responsibility to create a safe environment, where people can take risks and explore boundaries in a way that doesn't make people unduly uncomfortable or cross lines. Or if this was going to be an "everything & anything goes" kind of class the instructor should have said that from the beginning so people could opt out then.
Letting a single person dominate the class is not reflective of good teaching, facilitating or classroom management. This is an area that this particular instructor should work on, but they won't do that unless they get feedback.
posted by brookeb at 7:15 AM on March 16, 2015 [4 favorites]
I might say something like:
I really enjoyed the class; I learned X and felt I grew in Y ways. However, I often found that Bjorn frequently chose topics and made jokes that pushed boundaries. I particularly was uncomfortable when he put me in a scene about domestic violence and called me a bitch. While pushing boundaries is a part of performing and comedy, I think it would have been helpful if we as a class had set some norms at the beginning to make sure we were all in agreement about what kind of scenes we were comfortable doing.
You guys weren't professionals, you were students and it's the instructor's responsibility to create a safe environment, where people can take risks and explore boundaries in a way that doesn't make people unduly uncomfortable or cross lines. Or if this was going to be an "everything & anything goes" kind of class the instructor should have said that from the beginning so people could opt out then.
Letting a single person dominate the class is not reflective of good teaching, facilitating or classroom management. This is an area that this particular instructor should work on, but they won't do that unless they get feedback.
posted by brookeb at 7:15 AM on March 16, 2015 [4 favorites]
At the end of the day improv is supposed to be enjoyable rather than traumatizing. Really it's everyone's responsibility to check in (through eye contact) and make sure they are not crossing their scene partner's boundaries. As inturnaround says you have full liberty to kill the scene in that situation, although I know that may feel difficult.
Definitely speak to the instructor about it.
In roleplaying there's a big thing made of lines and veils - having a discussion on what kind of content should not appear. I've been slightly surprised that a similar thing doesn't generally happen in improv.
posted by Erberus at 7:32 AM on March 16, 2015 [2 favorites]
Definitely speak to the instructor about it.
In roleplaying there's a big thing made of lines and veils - having a discussion on what kind of content should not appear. I've been slightly surprised that a similar thing doesn't generally happen in improv.
posted by Erberus at 7:32 AM on March 16, 2015 [2 favorites]
Operating on the assumption that this was a class (it sounds like this was the showcase at the end of the course), this is really something instructors need to be explicitly addressing, particularly in their early-level classes (which I'm also assuming are required to get to upper-level classes).
I have many improv teachers among my social circles, and they are all aware that there are going to be students who either aren't quite operating in good faith or just don't have good boundaries. I'm pretty sure that's one of the reasons all the schools I know of are invite-only above level 2 or 3 - because every class seems to have at least one That Person and they are a limiting factor to what can be accomplished as a group.
In a class, as opposed to a troupe, I don't think it should have to be your responsibility to address this. In the moment on stage, I think the appropriate action would be to edit/wipe (if you guys are allowed to self-edit at that point - and frankly even if you are not allowed, sometimes that is the most graceful out anyway). Unless you are in way upper-level classes where you're training to handle heavy shit, I don't think end-of-class showcases are the place to explore especially challenging subject matter.
It's possible your instructor or your school in general hasn't sat down and talked about lines and boundaries, but I think class situations - where you don't get a choice in stage-mates - can be especially fraught, and doubly so for women, and instructors should be speaking to that. I hope you've been asked for feedback but I think, if you feel comfortable, you should offer it even if it's unsolicited.
posted by Lyn Never at 8:11 AM on March 16, 2015 [4 favorites]
I have many improv teachers among my social circles, and they are all aware that there are going to be students who either aren't quite operating in good faith or just don't have good boundaries. I'm pretty sure that's one of the reasons all the schools I know of are invite-only above level 2 or 3 - because every class seems to have at least one That Person and they are a limiting factor to what can be accomplished as a group.
In a class, as opposed to a troupe, I don't think it should have to be your responsibility to address this. In the moment on stage, I think the appropriate action would be to edit/wipe (if you guys are allowed to self-edit at that point - and frankly even if you are not allowed, sometimes that is the most graceful out anyway). Unless you are in way upper-level classes where you're training to handle heavy shit, I don't think end-of-class showcases are the place to explore especially challenging subject matter.
It's possible your instructor or your school in general hasn't sat down and talked about lines and boundaries, but I think class situations - where you don't get a choice in stage-mates - can be especially fraught, and doubly so for women, and instructors should be speaking to that. I hope you've been asked for feedback but I think, if you feel comfortable, you should offer it even if it's unsolicited.
posted by Lyn Never at 8:11 AM on March 16, 2015 [4 favorites]
That is so far over the line in an improv class. I'd definitely talk to the teacher and write an email to the manager. It's up to them to create a space that isn't misogynistic by setting up basic rules ahead of time. You're hardly complaining about a small thing -- calling someone a b!tch in the middle of a domestic abuse scene isn't improv, and it's not funny, and it's overtly creating a space to perform violence. Not okay.
I'm so sorry you had to experience that, especially in front of an audience and your class. It can be really traumatic to experience that viscerally (which is what theater/improv can do) and to not be prepared for it. Be gentle on yourself and maybe talk it through with a good friend or sibling, or even a hotline for a few minutes. Nobody would make fun of you for that, at all. I'm rattled for you. So sorry :-(
posted by barnone at 8:49 AM on March 16, 2015 [2 favorites]
I'm so sorry you had to experience that, especially in front of an audience and your class. It can be really traumatic to experience that viscerally (which is what theater/improv can do) and to not be prepared for it. Be gentle on yourself and maybe talk it through with a good friend or sibling, or even a hotline for a few minutes. Nobody would make fun of you for that, at all. I'm rattled for you. So sorry :-(
posted by barnone at 8:49 AM on March 16, 2015 [2 favorites]
I used to be a person that thought pretty much nothing is of limits in comedy. I was a fuck 'em if they can't take a joke sort of guy. I wasn't going got do racist or misogynistic crap, but I still felt it was possible to make some of the more problematic subjects funny. I still believe this is true, but someone pointed out, that even if it's possible to make a funny rape joke, or make domestic violence humorous, what did you succeed at? Great, good job, you made funny rape joke. Maybe aim a bit higher?
So all else aside I think it's fine to bring this up with your instructor in the "You know, maybe there should be a discussion on what subject matter is actually funny/acceptable?" sort of way. Again, it's possible to make most anything have some level of humor to it, but that doesn't mean one should.
posted by cjorgensen at 9:21 AM on March 16, 2015 [1 favorite]
So all else aside I think it's fine to bring this up with your instructor in the "You know, maybe there should be a discussion on what subject matter is actually funny/acceptable?" sort of way. Again, it's possible to make most anything have some level of humor to it, but that doesn't mean one should.
posted by cjorgensen at 9:21 AM on March 16, 2015 [1 favorite]
I would say do what you feel comfortable doing. If you're comfortable talking to the instructor or to your scene partner, do that. If the instructor is any good at all, he or she will have noticed the problem and taken steps to correct it.
If it's any consolation: if this guy continues to make his scene partners uncomfortable, he won't have scene partners for very long. Good improvisers respect their partners' boundaries and ensure that their partners enjoy working with them.
My hope is that you will find a group of people that you trust and enjoy working with.
posted by tallmiddleagedgeek at 10:26 AM on March 16, 2015 [2 favorites]
If it's any consolation: if this guy continues to make his scene partners uncomfortable, he won't have scene partners for very long. Good improvisers respect their partners' boundaries and ensure that their partners enjoy working with them.
My hope is that you will find a group of people that you trust and enjoy working with.
posted by tallmiddleagedgeek at 10:26 AM on March 16, 2015 [2 favorites]
"In the improv class I have taken, that kind of scene was explicitly off limits. Not only for the obvious reason that it might be damaging to the performer, but also because it's almost certainly not funny."
Yeah, I mean take my experience with salt since my last time taking improv classes was roughly 20 years ago at a Second City summer program, but I still remember one of the explicit instructions being that you don't ever want to veer toward extreme violence or sex in improv games, especially Yes, And, because it's a cheap way to up the intensity of a scene without going anywhere. Put another way: it's the laziest way to get stuck without a way to move the scene forward.
I do think that part of the value of improv is getting quick and confident enough to, "Yes, and last time you did that I cut your dick off," etc. But at the same time, developing the skill of dealing quickly with shitty situations is not really an argument for voluntarily going into shitty situation, and your instructor and classmates (and even your asshole improv partner) would benefit from both knowing that this is shitty behavior and not something you can pull on people — at least until the performers trust each other enough and know the difference between the person and the scene.
posted by klangklangston at 7:13 PM on March 16, 2015 [1 favorite]
Yeah, I mean take my experience with salt since my last time taking improv classes was roughly 20 years ago at a Second City summer program, but I still remember one of the explicit instructions being that you don't ever want to veer toward extreme violence or sex in improv games, especially Yes, And, because it's a cheap way to up the intensity of a scene without going anywhere. Put another way: it's the laziest way to get stuck without a way to move the scene forward.
I do think that part of the value of improv is getting quick and confident enough to, "Yes, and last time you did that I cut your dick off," etc. But at the same time, developing the skill of dealing quickly with shitty situations is not really an argument for voluntarily going into shitty situation, and your instructor and classmates (and even your asshole improv partner) would benefit from both knowing that this is shitty behavior and not something you can pull on people — at least until the performers trust each other enough and know the difference between the person and the scene.
posted by klangklangston at 7:13 PM on March 16, 2015 [1 favorite]
The goal of improv is to be funny. Also, the "rules" of improv are just conventions of a certain type of comedy performance. They're not laws of physics or federal statutes. I've done comedy including improv, and I hang out in the comedy scene in L.A. I would NOT have "yes, and" - ed this. Even if it meant walking off the stage, disrupting the performance, breaking the fourth wall, whatever.
Also, Nthing that this sort of scene has specifically been disallowed in improv classes/workshops I've participated in. This guy broke one of the cardinal rules of improv by going there. You shouldn't feel like you have to play by the rules if he's not going to.
posted by Sara C. at 8:15 PM on March 16, 2015 [1 favorite]
Also, Nthing that this sort of scene has specifically been disallowed in improv classes/workshops I've participated in. This guy broke one of the cardinal rules of improv by going there. You shouldn't feel like you have to play by the rules if he's not going to.
posted by Sara C. at 8:15 PM on March 16, 2015 [1 favorite]
I saw a scene like this in a class show.
The abused woman pulled out a gun and shot the abuser.
The audience cheered.
posted by mjcohen at 4:04 AM on March 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
The abused woman pulled out a gun and shot the abuser.
The audience cheered.
posted by mjcohen at 4:04 AM on March 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
I'm sorry that happened to you.
If you continue to take classes at this improv institution or with this instructor, it's important to give them feedback. They may not yet have policies in place to deal with stuff like this, or they may not have a system to track people acting in bad faith. I teach improv. I have had a huge number of students and among them there are ACTUAL creeps, as well as non-creeps who through the improv process find themselves in a bad/dark scene. Sometimes creeps need to be banned and sometimes non-creeps need guidance on taste and etiquette.
I think the proper/most helpful thing would be for the instructor/institution to contact this student instead of you. That's what directors and instructors are for. They can decide on whether to flag this student to watch in future classes, set a policy or train their teachers better.
At our school, there is a blanket "Don't be a jerk" policy, a non-harassment policy, student advocates and an extensive administration that can deal with problem students. All that said, the most important thing is the instructor and fellow students; in the moment, dealing with a bad scene, an instructor can intervene or ensemble members can change the situation. It sounds like this guy was kind of a dick for a while and it wasn't addressed early enough.
It's not possible to stop or prevent every uncomfortable improv scene, so it's good that you have a sense of your boundaries and your intuition about this other performer. Listen to your gut and if you find yourself in another class/group with him, talk to the instructor at the outset.
Have each other's backs! The ensemble can help a lot in these situations by stepping up and changing the scenario from an abusive one to something else. During a show, an instructor might not be able to help end a scene, but the rest of the players can and should.
posted by moedym at 5:50 AM on March 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
If you continue to take classes at this improv institution or with this instructor, it's important to give them feedback. They may not yet have policies in place to deal with stuff like this, or they may not have a system to track people acting in bad faith. I teach improv. I have had a huge number of students and among them there are ACTUAL creeps, as well as non-creeps who through the improv process find themselves in a bad/dark scene. Sometimes creeps need to be banned and sometimes non-creeps need guidance on taste and etiquette.
I think the proper/most helpful thing would be for the instructor/institution to contact this student instead of you. That's what directors and instructors are for. They can decide on whether to flag this student to watch in future classes, set a policy or train their teachers better.
At our school, there is a blanket "Don't be a jerk" policy, a non-harassment policy, student advocates and an extensive administration that can deal with problem students. All that said, the most important thing is the instructor and fellow students; in the moment, dealing with a bad scene, an instructor can intervene or ensemble members can change the situation. It sounds like this guy was kind of a dick for a while and it wasn't addressed early enough.
It's not possible to stop or prevent every uncomfortable improv scene, so it's good that you have a sense of your boundaries and your intuition about this other performer. Listen to your gut and if you find yourself in another class/group with him, talk to the instructor at the outset.
Have each other's backs! The ensemble can help a lot in these situations by stepping up and changing the scenario from an abusive one to something else. During a show, an instructor might not be able to help end a scene, but the rest of the players can and should.
posted by moedym at 5:50 AM on March 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
I'm part of a small theatre company where we run regular improv classes, including entry-level classes for absolute beginners. From our perspective, if any of our students feels threatened or uncomfortable, we would very much welcome it if the student in question spoke to us about it - we hope that all our students have an enjoyable time and a safe space to learn improv in, and if anyone doesn't feel safe then we'd want to be able to work towards remedying that as quickly as possible.
Just for reference, we do state several house rules at the beginning of every course we run, including a blanket ban on overly sexual/ violent scenes. (And on phone use during class, but that's another thing altogether.) We find it's easy to create tension or heighten drama in a cheap way with sex or violence and we'd rather our students finish our courses with a firm improv foundation rather than learn to use sex/ violence as a crutch. And, of course, if our students have no-go
areas we always encourage them to let us know.
As coaches it's ultimately our responsibility to ensure everyone feels safe, and I usually come in and sidecoach/ retool the scene if someone violates those rules.
posted by WalterMitty at 9:47 AM on March 21, 2015
Just for reference, we do state several house rules at the beginning of every course we run, including a blanket ban on overly sexual/ violent scenes. (And on phone use during class, but that's another thing altogether.) We find it's easy to create tension or heighten drama in a cheap way with sex or violence and we'd rather our students finish our courses with a firm improv foundation rather than learn to use sex/ violence as a crutch. And, of course, if our students have no-go
areas we always encourage them to let us know.
As coaches it's ultimately our responsibility to ensure everyone feels safe, and I usually come in and sidecoach/ retool the scene if someone violates those rules.
posted by WalterMitty at 9:47 AM on March 21, 2015
This thread is closed to new comments.
"These subjects are off the table for me," is 100% good improv, because your scene partners are going to know what scenarios you're going to run with and which ones will kill the scene, even if you go with them. If your troupe members won't honor your boundaries, it's time to find another troupe.
posted by xingcat at 6:42 AM on March 16, 2015 [1 favorite]