Legal consequences for renter having guests sleep in basement?
January 20, 2015 5:44 PM Subscribe
Do the legal consequences of guests sleeping in a basement without an egress window fall on the landlord, or the renter? Who has an incentive to report this activity?
Landlords say renters are not to break the rule about having people sleep in a basement that doesn't have an egress window, and that the fire department can inspect at any time. If they do anyway, do all the consequences fall on the landlord for violating the certificate of occupancy and insurance terms, do the renters get fined, or is it breaking the lease and grounds for eviction? I'm sure the fire department doesn't carry out midnight raids as a matter of course -- would they typically be called by the landlord, or only by neighbors who don't like the visitors?
For the sake of argument let's say the occupants are light-sleeping, skinny athletes who could easily exit a nonstandard egress window, so fire safety isn't the main issue.
Landlords say renters are not to break the rule about having people sleep in a basement that doesn't have an egress window, and that the fire department can inspect at any time. If they do anyway, do all the consequences fall on the landlord for violating the certificate of occupancy and insurance terms, do the renters get fined, or is it breaking the lease and grounds for eviction? I'm sure the fire department doesn't carry out midnight raids as a matter of course -- would they typically be called by the landlord, or only by neighbors who don't like the visitors?
For the sake of argument let's say the occupants are light-sleeping, skinny athletes who could easily exit a nonstandard egress window, so fire safety isn't the main issue.
The rules about the size of egress windows has to do with letting emergency personnel (who may have bulky clothing and equipment) in rather than someone inside getting themselves out.
posted by vespabelle at 6:16 PM on January 20, 2015 [8 favorites]
posted by vespabelle at 6:16 PM on January 20, 2015 [8 favorites]
Just because the guests might be able to escape in ideal circumstances doesn't make this fire safe.
Would an unconscious person be able to climb out the window? Meanwhile, anyone who is unconscious in a bedroom has more hope of being found and rescued.
posted by kinddieserzeit at 7:13 PM on January 20, 2015 [3 favorites]
Would an unconscious person be able to climb out the window? Meanwhile, anyone who is unconscious in a bedroom has more hope of being found and rescued.
posted by kinddieserzeit at 7:13 PM on January 20, 2015 [3 favorites]
Response by poster: If the lease says no, and you do it anyway it's on you. If you do it over an extended period of time and it can be shown the landlord should have known it's on both of you.
But what is "it" that is on you? And what is it about subletting (or say, 12 stays per month) that makes it more likely for consequences to ensue?
The risks of basement sleeping comments are well taken.
posted by Noumenon at 7:22 PM on January 20, 2015
But what is "it" that is on you? And what is it about subletting (or say, 12 stays per month) that makes it more likely for consequences to ensue?
The risks of basement sleeping comments are well taken.
posted by Noumenon at 7:22 PM on January 20, 2015
You may also want to check on local by-laws about keeping the furnace behind a suitable wall. I know someone here in Toronto who got fined for keeping her own spare bed in her unfinished basement (for comfortable summer sleeping) because she did not have a properly enclosed furnace room (see also). Note that it wasn't necessary for her to be allowing guests or tenants to sleep there to get fined. She got caught for using it as her own personal sleeping space.
posted by maudlin at 7:37 PM on January 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by maudlin at 7:37 PM on January 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
Best answer: IAALandlord. IANYLL. Check tenants' rights & responsibilities laws in your jurisdiction.
But what is "it" that is on you? And what is it about subletting (or say, 12 stays per month) that makes it more likely for consequences to ensue?
Begin with the assumption that anything that makes your LL sad will make you sadder.
Do you have neighbors? The neighbors will absolutely notice regular guests. If they're on good terms with your LL, you will be in for an unpleasant surprise.
1) The scenario you describe very likely violates clauses in your lease about subletting.
2) This violates both local code and the terms of your LL's insurance.
3) Once your LL finds out that something is amiss, they must do something about it or face potentially serious repercussions (financial, legal, and otherwise). There's a fire? Someone was injured? And your LL knew people were in the basement? The insurance company will have some very unpleasant things to say.
4) The "something" your LL is likely to do: evict you for violating the terms of your lease.
posted by thomas j wise at 7:46 PM on January 20, 2015 [8 favorites]
But what is "it" that is on you? And what is it about subletting (or say, 12 stays per month) that makes it more likely for consequences to ensue?
Begin with the assumption that anything that makes your LL sad will make you sadder.
Do you have neighbors? The neighbors will absolutely notice regular guests. If they're on good terms with your LL, you will be in for an unpleasant surprise.
1) The scenario you describe very likely violates clauses in your lease about subletting.
2) This violates both local code and the terms of your LL's insurance.
3) Once your LL finds out that something is amiss, they must do something about it or face potentially serious repercussions (financial, legal, and otherwise). There's a fire? Someone was injured? And your LL knew people were in the basement? The insurance company will have some very unpleasant things to say.
4) The "something" your LL is likely to do: evict you for violating the terms of your lease.
posted by thomas j wise at 7:46 PM on January 20, 2015 [8 favorites]
Response by poster: Thanks, I understand what kind of consequences there can be now. I was thinking in a "state law enforced by police" frame, I didn't think of the lease as a source of rules. Giving the enforcement responsibility to the landlord reminds me of how income taxes are collected by employers instead of official government tax collectors. It's an effective system.
posted by Noumenon at 8:25 PM on January 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Noumenon at 8:25 PM on January 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: I'm also happy that I understand the landlord's incentive to fix the situation. They might not seem that concerned, but they probably will be (especially salient when the next-door duplex actually did burn down in 2013 with someone trapped inside!)
posted by Noumenon at 8:48 PM on January 20, 2015
posted by Noumenon at 8:48 PM on January 20, 2015
The rules about the size of egress windows has to do with letting emergency personnel (who may have bulky clothing and equipment) in rather than someone inside getting themselves out.
Not a big deal, but really, they call it an egress window. As a landlord I have a two-story apartment building. The upper units all have a so-called "jump deck", one of which is basically a door opening to a 4x4 deck, from which climbing, laddering, or jumping is possible. The rule is enforced such that basement rooms must have two pathways for occupants to exit. The code even requires the window to be operable from the inside without keys or tools. So, "egress". Also, I just unrelatedly watched a bunch of firehouse videos showing the VEIS (vent, enter, isolate, search) technique used in fires, mostly for bedrooms that have lost access to the outside thanks to heat, smoke, or destruction. The pros would really rather people be able to get themselves out, as this is incredibly difficult and dangerous work.
was thinking in a "state law enforced by police" frame
Yeah, this is code enforcement, which is 99% of the time just administrative or, at worst, civil law. Criminal law may come into play if there is a death or in some cases injury (e.g. around here a DIY landlord had his nephew install a gas water heater, which subsequently blew up, so that resulted in criminal penalties).
In my city there is a fairly lax system of code enforcement, in some views, but strict as hell once they get going. (Mostly a complaint-based system, but naturally they enforce anything with a permit.) So it would go like this:
1) Tenant or other knowledgeable party reports violation to city.
2) City sends LL stern letter about violation and need for correction. If it involves code (like the gas example) an inspection will be required to clear the violation.
3) Say LL fails to correct violation. City will follow up with warning of legal action.
4) Continued failure to comply may result in fines, which can be assessed daily while the violation continues.
5) At long last the city's patience ends, and the city attorney files legal charges in court.
6) Even now the LL has a chance to "correct" (actual term) the problem and can probably escape paying any fines if he hurries up and makes the fixes prior to court.
(This is now playing out with a drug house an absentee LL has allowed to fester for years, although that's a nuisance rather than code issue.)
As a LL having 1) happen is something that, well, happens with some regularity. Toilets break, for instance. The idea is that I never let things get to 2) let alone any of the other steps.
iving the enforcement responsibility to the landlord
I think you're misreading this. It isn't a crime to -- situation A -- sleep in a non-code-compliant sleeping area. It definitely is against the law to -- situation B -- offer a non-code-compliant basement and call it a sleeping area. The trouble is that a lassitude here with regards to people filling up the basement with cots is something that does make the landlord liable due to knowledge of the abuse, putting him in situation B. It has roughly the same effect but it really isn't like your example of tax collection, in which it is both a crime for an employee to evade taxes and for employers to fail to withhold according to the submitted exemptions -- but the employer is also not required to enforce or audit the claims.
posted by dhartung at 12:33 AM on January 21, 2015 [1 favorite]
Not a big deal, but really, they call it an egress window. As a landlord I have a two-story apartment building. The upper units all have a so-called "jump deck", one of which is basically a door opening to a 4x4 deck, from which climbing, laddering, or jumping is possible. The rule is enforced such that basement rooms must have two pathways for occupants to exit. The code even requires the window to be operable from the inside without keys or tools. So, "egress". Also, I just unrelatedly watched a bunch of firehouse videos showing the VEIS (vent, enter, isolate, search) technique used in fires, mostly for bedrooms that have lost access to the outside thanks to heat, smoke, or destruction. The pros would really rather people be able to get themselves out, as this is incredibly difficult and dangerous work.
was thinking in a "state law enforced by police" frame
Yeah, this is code enforcement, which is 99% of the time just administrative or, at worst, civil law. Criminal law may come into play if there is a death or in some cases injury (e.g. around here a DIY landlord had his nephew install a gas water heater, which subsequently blew up, so that resulted in criminal penalties).
In my city there is a fairly lax system of code enforcement, in some views, but strict as hell once they get going. (Mostly a complaint-based system, but naturally they enforce anything with a permit.) So it would go like this:
1) Tenant or other knowledgeable party reports violation to city.
2) City sends LL stern letter about violation and need for correction. If it involves code (like the gas example) an inspection will be required to clear the violation.
3) Say LL fails to correct violation. City will follow up with warning of legal action.
4) Continued failure to comply may result in fines, which can be assessed daily while the violation continues.
5) At long last the city's patience ends, and the city attorney files legal charges in court.
6) Even now the LL has a chance to "correct" (actual term) the problem and can probably escape paying any fines if he hurries up and makes the fixes prior to court.
(This is now playing out with a drug house an absentee LL has allowed to fester for years, although that's a nuisance rather than code issue.)
As a LL having 1) happen is something that, well, happens with some regularity. Toilets break, for instance. The idea is that I never let things get to 2) let alone any of the other steps.
iving the enforcement responsibility to the landlord
I think you're misreading this. It isn't a crime to -- situation A -- sleep in a non-code-compliant sleeping area. It definitely is against the law to -- situation B -- offer a non-code-compliant basement and call it a sleeping area. The trouble is that a lassitude here with regards to people filling up the basement with cots is something that does make the landlord liable due to knowledge of the abuse, putting him in situation B. It has roughly the same effect but it really isn't like your example of tax collection, in which it is both a crime for an employee to evade taxes and for employers to fail to withhold according to the submitted exemptions -- but the employer is also not required to enforce or audit the claims.
posted by dhartung at 12:33 AM on January 21, 2015 [1 favorite]
« Older How do I talk to people about my divorce? | Cleaning spectacles / eye-glasses using a machine... Newer »
This thread is closed to new comments.
If this is an overnight guest I wouldn't worry about it. If you are basically subletting I would.
I am not a lawyer and there's a good chance this varies by jurisdiction.
posted by cjorgensen at 6:02 PM on January 20, 2015 [3 favorites]