Talking to My Narcissist Parents After a Psych Hospitalization
January 8, 2015 9:54 PM Subscribe
I've posted here plenty seeking help related to mental health issues (bipolar depression, PTSD, irritability) and also with help talking to my parents. Now those two have merged and I'm trying to figure out how to talk to them while I am also readjusting to the outside world after spending 8 days in an inpatient psych ward. That readjustment is so very hard, and I don't want them pushing my buttons so I have to go back. I'm hoping someone here can help me strategize. Here's what's going on, with apologies for the length.
I will spare you the whole backstory, but I'll say that my father has pretty much attempted to pathologize me my whole life, always acting as if I was too weak or "sensitive" for this or that. He has a temper, and that has flared up during times I have asserted my independence, like when I first moved out. When I first tried to go away for college, he didn't want me to go and would talk to me almost nightly about how I would certainly get fat and depressed if I went. I did go, but very soon after I thought I couldn't handle it and returned home. (Still not over that.)
Anyway, I am 32 now, and I feel like our relationship has improved some in recent history. We live 800 miles apart now, too. In late December my therapist and I decided going inpatient (mostly for mania, ptsd, insomnia, and not so much for depression) would be helpful, so that's what I did, letting my family know that I was not in any danger and giving them the phone number where I could be reached.
The hospitalization was very helpful. I talked to my parents on the phone frequently so they could hear how I sounded and such. My parents are the sort to ignore even the most prominent crisis if it's unpleasant , and that came through in their phone calls. My mother would ask me what I'd eaten for each meal, for example, but never asked why I was there. I told her several times that I would not be answering any more questions about what I ate.
Near the end of my stay there, I was having a really crappy day just kind of regurgitating all the ways in which I had been letting people stomp on me. I thought about things that might transpire that evening, including being asked to narrate my dinner or sound amused at my father's puns and impressed by his monologues about his own accomplishments. I just didn't have it in me that night, and I asked staff to take messages if they called.
One of the staff people came into my room a bit later concerned about the messages piling up from my mom. (For the record, I am not questioning whether parents should/shouldn't be concerned about the wellbeing of their hospitalized daughter, so please don't mistake this for that. It's more that the messages were adding up quickly enough that the staff though something major was going on that I hadn't disclosed.
The next morning is when things get super juicy, though. I would have begun to take their callls again, I think, were it not for the staff coming to me again, this time about my father. I don't know how many times he'd called, but I know he was really trying to throw his weight around to make the staff either disclose info to him or somehow make me talk to him. Like, he was throwing around time he'd spent working in Virginia state government 20 years ago. To a person working at a hospital in Wisconsin. Staff didn't say too much, just wanted to see if they were missing something. I tried to explain and also ask how to deal with my parents, but unfortunately all their advice were the kinds of things you learn in your first few months of therapy (Have you tried writing a letter? Have you tried saying how you feel?
Now I am out of the hospital and back to real life, the same stuff that stressed me out so much in the first place. I had planned to call my parents Friday and I feel anxious and sick and rotten about it. Like, of course they were concerned--who wouldn't be--and I don't want to scare them when I have given them reason to be scared in the past. I accept all that and that if i needed a hiatus, however brief or long, I could have been more clear about that from the start. But, at the same time, they disregarded everything I said I need from them to heal. They ignored everything I've been saying for months now about being manic, having ptsd, etc. They embarrassed me and put me in a weird situation with their methods of attempting to get information.
And because they are both textbook narcissists (I don't know if I've made a case for that here), I know that even a tiny bit of "Well, I would have appreciated it if you had done this a little differently" would be seen as heresy. I don't think my parents will ever give me space when I ask for it or just take it, and I think they will always be more consumed by how a situation affects them (their worry upon not reaching me) rather than the primary person it involves (my needing to go in-patient).
I've read some good articles on talking to narcicissts, but I am still looking for good phrases and behaviors. I don't feel like I can afford to lose any ground right now, but, and I fear that if just keep giving in to them that I will keep living out their fantasy of a world where I am too immobilized to function. On the other hand, I know that not even a whiff of an argument/debate will go well. Can someone help me find phrases or sentence structures I could use?
I will spare you the whole backstory, but I'll say that my father has pretty much attempted to pathologize me my whole life, always acting as if I was too weak or "sensitive" for this or that. He has a temper, and that has flared up during times I have asserted my independence, like when I first moved out. When I first tried to go away for college, he didn't want me to go and would talk to me almost nightly about how I would certainly get fat and depressed if I went. I did go, but very soon after I thought I couldn't handle it and returned home. (Still not over that.)
Anyway, I am 32 now, and I feel like our relationship has improved some in recent history. We live 800 miles apart now, too. In late December my therapist and I decided going inpatient (mostly for mania, ptsd, insomnia, and not so much for depression) would be helpful, so that's what I did, letting my family know that I was not in any danger and giving them the phone number where I could be reached.
The hospitalization was very helpful. I talked to my parents on the phone frequently so they could hear how I sounded and such. My parents are the sort to ignore even the most prominent crisis if it's unpleasant , and that came through in their phone calls. My mother would ask me what I'd eaten for each meal, for example, but never asked why I was there. I told her several times that I would not be answering any more questions about what I ate.
Near the end of my stay there, I was having a really crappy day just kind of regurgitating all the ways in which I had been letting people stomp on me. I thought about things that might transpire that evening, including being asked to narrate my dinner or sound amused at my father's puns and impressed by his monologues about his own accomplishments. I just didn't have it in me that night, and I asked staff to take messages if they called.
One of the staff people came into my room a bit later concerned about the messages piling up from my mom. (For the record, I am not questioning whether parents should/shouldn't be concerned about the wellbeing of their hospitalized daughter, so please don't mistake this for that. It's more that the messages were adding up quickly enough that the staff though something major was going on that I hadn't disclosed.
The next morning is when things get super juicy, though. I would have begun to take their callls again, I think, were it not for the staff coming to me again, this time about my father. I don't know how many times he'd called, but I know he was really trying to throw his weight around to make the staff either disclose info to him or somehow make me talk to him. Like, he was throwing around time he'd spent working in Virginia state government 20 years ago. To a person working at a hospital in Wisconsin. Staff didn't say too much, just wanted to see if they were missing something. I tried to explain and also ask how to deal with my parents, but unfortunately all their advice were the kinds of things you learn in your first few months of therapy (Have you tried writing a letter? Have you tried saying how you feel?
Now I am out of the hospital and back to real life, the same stuff that stressed me out so much in the first place. I had planned to call my parents Friday and I feel anxious and sick and rotten about it. Like, of course they were concerned--who wouldn't be--and I don't want to scare them when I have given them reason to be scared in the past. I accept all that and that if i needed a hiatus, however brief or long, I could have been more clear about that from the start. But, at the same time, they disregarded everything I said I need from them to heal. They ignored everything I've been saying for months now about being manic, having ptsd, etc. They embarrassed me and put me in a weird situation with their methods of attempting to get information.
And because they are both textbook narcissists (I don't know if I've made a case for that here), I know that even a tiny bit of "Well, I would have appreciated it if you had done this a little differently" would be seen as heresy. I don't think my parents will ever give me space when I ask for it or just take it, and I think they will always be more consumed by how a situation affects them (their worry upon not reaching me) rather than the primary person it involves (my needing to go in-patient).
I've read some good articles on talking to narcicissts, but I am still looking for good phrases and behaviors. I don't feel like I can afford to lose any ground right now, but, and I fear that if just keep giving in to them that I will keep living out their fantasy of a world where I am too immobilized to function. On the other hand, I know that not even a whiff of an argument/debate will go well. Can someone help me find phrases or sentence structures I could use?
You're asking for phrases to use in speaking to your parents, but it's not entirely clear what it is you'd like to communicate to them and/or accomplish with this conversation. I feel like that might be the more important place to start.
posted by bethnull at 10:19 PM on January 8, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by bethnull at 10:19 PM on January 8, 2015 [4 favorites]
Whether it's global thermonuclear war or talking to narcissistic parents, heed the advice of the computer from the movie Wargames:
Joshua/WOPR: "A strange game. The only winning move is not to play. How about a nice game of chess?"
If you do decide to play, plan out how you can stick to structured contact.
posted by Sophont at 11:47 PM on January 8, 2015 [5 favorites]
Joshua/WOPR: "A strange game. The only winning move is not to play. How about a nice game of chess?"
If you do decide to play, plan out how you can stick to structured contact.
posted by Sophont at 11:47 PM on January 8, 2015 [5 favorites]
What do your doctors say?
I'm confused by your narrative. You have illness including PTSD, yet you talk to people who traumatize you and actively make you feel upset and unsafe. You say they are Narcissists, but then misconstrue them terrorizing you and bullying the hospital staff as "worry" or "caring."
Has anybody told you the truth about them and how they are exacerbating your condition? I'm serious. Has anyone has ever discussed the consequences for your mental health and with you?
posted by jbenben at 12:16 AM on January 9, 2015 [8 favorites]
I'm confused by your narrative. You have illness including PTSD, yet you talk to people who traumatize you and actively make you feel upset and unsafe. You say they are Narcissists, but then misconstrue them terrorizing you and bullying the hospital staff as "worry" or "caring."
Has anybody told you the truth about them and how they are exacerbating your condition? I'm serious. Has anyone has ever discussed the consequences for your mental health and with you?
posted by jbenben at 12:16 AM on January 9, 2015 [8 favorites]
Best answer: I am very close to someone with narcissistic parents. The best thing this person has done for the sake of their mental health is to cut off contact with their parents. It's not an easy thing to do but it's been essential for mental health in this case. The person feels sad about it, but they've decided their mental health has to be the priority.
I feel like this is probably the case for you too, and like jbenben I'm surprised your doctors have not talked to you about this. With people like your parents, there isn't really a way to mitigate their ill effect on your mental health if they're not willing to work on their behaviour...and it sounds like they won't even acknowledge it. I'm very sorry, because I know it's not what you want, but I think your parents have the potential to undo the good work your inpatient stay did for your mental health.
posted by hurdy gurdy girl at 12:47 AM on January 9, 2015 [9 favorites]
I feel like this is probably the case for you too, and like jbenben I'm surprised your doctors have not talked to you about this. With people like your parents, there isn't really a way to mitigate their ill effect on your mental health if they're not willing to work on their behaviour...and it sounds like they won't even acknowledge it. I'm very sorry, because I know it's not what you want, but I think your parents have the potential to undo the good work your inpatient stay did for your mental health.
posted by hurdy gurdy girl at 12:47 AM on January 9, 2015 [9 favorites]
Best answer: When I signed myself into a Psych Unit about 10 years ago, I guess, I was there for a couple of weeks and then went to daily outpatient therapy. I was not released back into the same mess I left in the first place with no one to help me figure out how to handle the stuff that was overwhelming me. Yet you've just spent 8 days in the Psych Unit and now you're back in the same place with no new ideas, no new help, no new strategies to use to keep your head above water with parents who must be right in the middle of your life? How can that be? Was anything at all accomplished in the hospital? When I was there, it was intense. I couldn't wiggle around and avoid questions about my family and my problems if I tried - they were pushy and they called me on it if I was trying to change the subject and move away from something hurtful and too uncomfortable for comfort to me.
How can you be right back where you were after doing the inpatient thing?
Point is - you should not be trying to figure out how to deal with your overbearing parents without someone standing behind you and helping you strategize.
posted by aryma at 12:54 AM on January 9, 2015 [11 favorites]
How can you be right back where you were after doing the inpatient thing?
Point is - you should not be trying to figure out how to deal with your overbearing parents without someone standing behind you and helping you strategize.
posted by aryma at 12:54 AM on January 9, 2015 [11 favorites]
Best answer: It sounds like you want to briefly communicate that you are well(ish), they have no need to contact you, and you will be in contact later, ya? But without them then steamrolling over you and your emotions. It sounded like you had the solution yourself, write them a letter, do the structured contact, get a new phone number to use in your daily life while keeping the old one - but only check message once a week (or, ideally, have someone else quickly go through the messages and summerise just in case some calls come through from other people you don't want to miss - I love visual voicemail for this). It is great that you are taking control of your health in such an empowered way!
posted by saucysault at 12:59 AM on January 9, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by saucysault at 12:59 AM on January 9, 2015 [4 favorites]
Best answer: You specifically asked for phrases, sorry I skipped that:
Dear Mom and Dad,
I am out of the hospital and focusing on my health right now. While working hard with my team of professionals to get well I won't be able to contact you and I need you to not contact me. I will be in contact with you later and we can catch up then.
[love]
Mermaidcafe
You can optionally give them a specific date you WILL contact them (mother's day, parent's birthday) but it sounds like that may trigger your anxiety.
posted by saucysault at 1:05 AM on January 9, 2015 [4 favorites]
Dear Mom and Dad,
I am out of the hospital and focusing on my health right now. While working hard with my team of professionals to get well I won't be able to contact you and I need you to not contact me. I will be in contact with you later and we can catch up then.
[love]
Mermaidcafe
You can optionally give them a specific date you WILL contact them (mother's day, parent's birthday) but it sounds like that may trigger your anxiety.
posted by saucysault at 1:05 AM on January 9, 2015 [4 favorites]
Also, (gah, sorry for the third post, but my NMIL sounds like your mum), a therapist suggested I keep a blog, Facebook page or something along those lines for my NMIL to feel a connection as a way to assuage my NMIL'a separation anxiety and fear of rejection. The blog/Facebook was to only have positive things, photos, and nothing deeply personal or triggering (lots of look at this neat tree, here is a motivational quote, here is a photo of my lunch etc) and if it was a blog to disable comments (with FB you run the risk of her comments - my NMIL knows that if she comments in my FB I will defriend her and she won't have that tenuous connection).
posted by saucysault at 1:12 AM on January 9, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by saucysault at 1:12 AM on January 9, 2015 [2 favorites]
Best answer: I'm currently acting as a go-between for someone in your situation exactly - recently out of a psychiatric hospitalization, narcissistic parents making things worse, trying to focus on stability. This person went no contact with the parents and while that hasn't worked in the past, it's working now because they can contact me and get some reassurance their offspring is still here, doing okay, working on getting better, will contact them when healthy enough to do so. I take messages from them and mostly do not pass them on but in one or two cases I have. I am vague, I frankly flat out lie to them at times, but it's enough to keep them off my friend's back. I wonder if you might have someone in your life able to play this role for you and if it might work for your parents?
I'm sorry you're dealing with this at a time that is already stressful for you.
posted by Stacey at 3:07 AM on January 9, 2015 [10 favorites]
I'm sorry you're dealing with this at a time that is already stressful for you.
posted by Stacey at 3:07 AM on January 9, 2015 [10 favorites]
Best answer: I can't think of precise phrases but here's what I've learned about NPD parents and partners:
Practise speaking the truth in short sentences. Stuff that cannot be argued with, because if they are contested by the NPD, you are able to rely on the fact that you speak the simple truth, and stick simply, in a regulated manner, to the position you have asserted. eg 'I need time by myself to recover from my hospitalisation' or 'it is best for me if I have some time alone with my recovery, I will contact you in Xnumber days.' The NPD is alert for repudiation and criticism, and will find it everywhere. Just keep repeating the same short sentence and don't take any bait to make this simple statement of self about them.
Tell yourself what you need. What do you need? Write it down. Don't ask NPD to fill a need. Wean yourself from asking for things from people who can't ever give it to you. Recognise and factually mourn the absence of this need-filling capacity of your NPD parent/s. They. cannot. fill. your. needs. Hear that. They can't fill your needs. Stop asking or bidding for their help. Stop telling yourself that their controlling and manipulations are love. They are not. They are manifestations of their NPD pathology. Recognise this and stop seeing love in control. Hard task. Fucking hard. Pat yourself on the back each time you see where you sidestepped a black hole of their crap.
Step back. No messages need answering. The phone doesn't need to be answered. Say 'I'll contact you when I am ready' and don't contact them until you are ready.
Eight hundred miles apart is good. Don't go 'home' and don't back down.
posted by honey-barbara at 3:15 AM on January 9, 2015 [16 favorites]
Practise speaking the truth in short sentences. Stuff that cannot be argued with, because if they are contested by the NPD, you are able to rely on the fact that you speak the simple truth, and stick simply, in a regulated manner, to the position you have asserted. eg 'I need time by myself to recover from my hospitalisation' or 'it is best for me if I have some time alone with my recovery, I will contact you in Xnumber days.' The NPD is alert for repudiation and criticism, and will find it everywhere. Just keep repeating the same short sentence and don't take any bait to make this simple statement of self about them.
Tell yourself what you need. What do you need? Write it down. Don't ask NPD to fill a need. Wean yourself from asking for things from people who can't ever give it to you. Recognise and factually mourn the absence of this need-filling capacity of your NPD parent/s. They. cannot. fill. your. needs. Hear that. They can't fill your needs. Stop asking or bidding for their help. Stop telling yourself that their controlling and manipulations are love. They are not. They are manifestations of their NPD pathology. Recognise this and stop seeing love in control. Hard task. Fucking hard. Pat yourself on the back each time you see where you sidestepped a black hole of their crap.
Step back. No messages need answering. The phone doesn't need to be answered. Say 'I'll contact you when I am ready' and don't contact them until you are ready.
Eight hundred miles apart is good. Don't go 'home' and don't back down.
posted by honey-barbara at 3:15 AM on January 9, 2015 [16 favorites]
Best answer: Seconding that you need some additional strategy and support here.
There is no magic phrase that will get your parents to respond appropriately. You may have spent many hours in your 32 years trying...I know that battle, trust me. I know it is hard to get it but here it is: they are sick. You will never find the phrase that gets them to react to you the way you want because it is entirely dependent on their narcissistic narrative of the moment. My approach has been like this:
1. I say what I want to have said. My parent might freak out or might not, depending on where my parent is at. I personally choose to just keep things as surface level as possible: oh you were trying to reach me? Sorry about that. I am having a hard time. Oh hey, did you see the news story on x?
There is no perfect way for me to be that will make them be consistently decent. Nor is there a way for me to feel good about it when they randomly aren't. The rules of the game for me are get off the phone and let my feeling be feelings - legit feeling, that do not take down my entire week. This took loads of work and support and for the record, my therapist always has thought I should go no-contact instead.
2. I hope you know their behavior was freaking ridiculous. You were in hospital!!! That they couldn't manage their anxiety for a few days is their problem. You are not responsible for it.
3. I am so sorry but the reason so many children of NPD parents go no or very low contact is because it sucks so much when you are really needing some support. The trouble is NPD parents can be so helpful and nice, when it suits them. Then they aren't.
Growing up as a child learning how the world works of course you tried to figure out their responses. Now you know they are messed up but somewhere you are still trying (saying you know they have had cause to worry in the past...whatever. You were safe, they could talk to staff, they should have backed off but of course they couldn't because talking to you is how they cope which is so wildly inappropriate I can't even.) Their relationship cause and effect is broken.
There are some good resources out there and I think you need support. I like the sort of badly named Why is it always about you? for a read about the narcissist parent and its results. It sounds to me like you kind of know they are nuts but you are not quite understanding they are nuts.
There is no magic phrase for the phone that will make their treatment of you okay. So that rant over...what do you want to say? Jot it down and then make it short and as non-emotional (for you) as possible. "I'm home, doing okay. I don't want to get into it...how about that sports thingy...oh the cat just puked, I have to go!!!"
posted by warriorqueen at 3:45 AM on January 9, 2015 [8 favorites]
There is no magic phrase that will get your parents to respond appropriately. You may have spent many hours in your 32 years trying...I know that battle, trust me. I know it is hard to get it but here it is: they are sick. You will never find the phrase that gets them to react to you the way you want because it is entirely dependent on their narcissistic narrative of the moment. My approach has been like this:
1. I say what I want to have said. My parent might freak out or might not, depending on where my parent is at. I personally choose to just keep things as surface level as possible: oh you were trying to reach me? Sorry about that. I am having a hard time. Oh hey, did you see the news story on x?
There is no perfect way for me to be that will make them be consistently decent. Nor is there a way for me to feel good about it when they randomly aren't. The rules of the game for me are get off the phone and let my feeling be feelings - legit feeling, that do not take down my entire week. This took loads of work and support and for the record, my therapist always has thought I should go no-contact instead.
2. I hope you know their behavior was freaking ridiculous. You were in hospital!!! That they couldn't manage their anxiety for a few days is their problem. You are not responsible for it.
3. I am so sorry but the reason so many children of NPD parents go no or very low contact is because it sucks so much when you are really needing some support. The trouble is NPD parents can be so helpful and nice, when it suits them. Then they aren't.
Growing up as a child learning how the world works of course you tried to figure out their responses. Now you know they are messed up but somewhere you are still trying (saying you know they have had cause to worry in the past...whatever. You were safe, they could talk to staff, they should have backed off but of course they couldn't because talking to you is how they cope which is so wildly inappropriate I can't even.) Their relationship cause and effect is broken.
There are some good resources out there and I think you need support. I like the sort of badly named Why is it always about you? for a read about the narcissist parent and its results. It sounds to me like you kind of know they are nuts but you are not quite understanding they are nuts.
There is no magic phrase for the phone that will make their treatment of you okay. So that rant over...what do you want to say? Jot it down and then make it short and as non-emotional (for you) as possible. "I'm home, doing okay. I don't want to get into it...how about that sports thingy...oh the cat just puked, I have to go!!!"
posted by warriorqueen at 3:45 AM on January 9, 2015 [8 favorites]
Perhaps it would be good to make this sound like it's not THEM you're specifically trying to avoid, but you're deep in therapy and need to take some time away from everybody. A white lie, in other words. If you have a partner or close friend your parents know, you could say, "I need to focus on my recovery and take a little time away from (my partner,) from (my friend,) from you guys, from everybody." Maybe you could say it's your therapist's orders, make them the bad guy.
posted by Ursula Hitler at 4:02 AM on January 9, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Ursula Hitler at 4:02 AM on January 9, 2015 [1 favorite]
Best answer: Boundaries, you need them. Yes, Narcissistic parents can also love and want what's best for their child, while being a bad presence in their life.
You need to establish a boundary with them. It's hard, I've done it. Tell your parents:
1. I'll call you once a day to check in with you. No more, no less. I will not answer the phone if you call me.
2. I will not allow you to upset me or treat me badly. I am not responsible to tell you anything I don't want to disclose. If you persist, I will hang up on you.
3. I love you and your refusal to give me space and to allow me to recuperate in peace is detrimental to my health. I know you love me and your constant calls and bullying of my care givers is upsetting to me.
Then stick to it. "This is upsetting me, please stop or I'll hang up." Or, if you're with them, "I will not be spoken to like that, I'm leaving."
I had an escape plan for every encounter with my mother. I left my parents in Albuquerque and flew home early, I left my parents at the Liberty Bell in Philadelphia, I left my parents at a movie theater in Sacramento. I'm serious as death eating crackers.
You can manage this. You really, really can.
Their need to be reassured does not outweigh your need for peace and understanding.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 5:20 AM on January 9, 2015 [11 favorites]
You need to establish a boundary with them. It's hard, I've done it. Tell your parents:
1. I'll call you once a day to check in with you. No more, no less. I will not answer the phone if you call me.
2. I will not allow you to upset me or treat me badly. I am not responsible to tell you anything I don't want to disclose. If you persist, I will hang up on you.
3. I love you and your refusal to give me space and to allow me to recuperate in peace is detrimental to my health. I know you love me and your constant calls and bullying of my care givers is upsetting to me.
Then stick to it. "This is upsetting me, please stop or I'll hang up." Or, if you're with them, "I will not be spoken to like that, I'm leaving."
I had an escape plan for every encounter with my mother. I left my parents in Albuquerque and flew home early, I left my parents at the Liberty Bell in Philadelphia, I left my parents at a movie theater in Sacramento. I'm serious as death eating crackers.
You can manage this. You really, really can.
Their need to be reassured does not outweigh your need for peace and understanding.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 5:20 AM on January 9, 2015 [11 favorites]
Best answer: I have an auto responder on email that tells people I check my email once a day at X time Pacific standard time. I plan to change my voicemail to say that as well. And I'm not dealing with what you are dealing with, I am just tired of interruptions.
There is excellent advice upthread. I would just Nth the idea that you are not obligated to be in contact with your parents daily or even weekly if that is detrimental to your health.
I used to be very confused. I used to believe that I owed the people who loved me my entire life, basically. That's not true. Love yourself, take care of yourself, cherish yourself, and do what ever you need to do to get healthy. Including setting limits on contact with your parents as needed. We care about you, and we are rooting for your success.
posted by Bella Donna at 10:00 AM on January 9, 2015 [1 favorite]
There is excellent advice upthread. I would just Nth the idea that you are not obligated to be in contact with your parents daily or even weekly if that is detrimental to your health.
I used to be very confused. I used to believe that I owed the people who loved me my entire life, basically. That's not true. Love yourself, take care of yourself, cherish yourself, and do what ever you need to do to get healthy. Including setting limits on contact with your parents as needed. We care about you, and we are rooting for your success.
posted by Bella Donna at 10:00 AM on January 9, 2015 [1 favorite]
Best answer: Sorry, one more thing: my N dad has been really shocked that I've developed the ability to say no to him. I was driving us somewhere in his truck, and he was mad as hell that I would not agree to do something that was a really bad idea. He said, if you don't say yes I'm going to have a shit fit. And I was exhausted from saying no. He was being such a toddler about everything. I just said, that's okay, dad. You do that. Just have a shit fit. And he shut up for the rest of the drive.
posted by Bella Donna at 10:07 AM on January 9, 2015
posted by Bella Donna at 10:07 AM on January 9, 2015
Best answer: I'm sorry that you're dealing with this. Their behavior was completely inappropriate. What you're dealing with here is really complicated, and your parents sound ... pretty intense. (I wrote most of this comment last night, so apologies for repeating some of what's above and being a little longwinded.)
I've read some good articles on talking to narcicissts, but I am still looking for good phrases and behaviors.
I would submit that if they are textbook narcissists, then nothing you say will make them behave towards you in they way you deserve. They may never see your feelings and needs or ask about your health instead of your dinner no matter how well you explain what you want. They sound incapable of hearing "mermaidcafe needs to focus on her own health right now so s/he needs a break from phone calls" and respecting it. As part of thinking through what you want to do, it's important to keep your expectations of how they'll react very realistic. As your question implies, there may be no way to ask for what you want that won't provoke a tantrum. The trick is to think about what you can feel good about (or live with) having said no matter how they react.
Have you decided between "no contact" and a more structured version of lower contact? Obviously, the approaches all have pros and cons -- you'll get more space from them via "no contact, " but they might go more ballistic than via a subtler approach? Or not? You can guess this better than we can. I just want to say that there is a wide spectrum of approaches, not one right way. You know better than any of us how to balance the pros and cons and what will be most self protective.
Since you're feeling a bit precarious, it might be worth asking how they will react to whatever you ask for and how you would weather their reaction. How bad will it get? (Will they get the state troopers to knock on your door or fly out to "check on you?") It'll be important to choose a boundary you're comfortable defending. Giving in after setting boundaries is worse than not setting them, as they'll assume they can push through and get you to give in when you set future boundaries.
If you feel like it would be more self-protective and practical to stay in low contact, a strategy I've heard is to work on that contact being as innocuous and boring as possible, mentally checking out, and not letting their words get to you. I've heard this referred to as "medium chill." You can pretend they're talking to your external self while your real self sits there imagining something pleasant. This will be a work in progress, so don't feel like you have to do it perfectly; you won't always succeed at staying aloof.
Either way, I don't think you actually need our help with a script, as your question was worded well. I'm sure the hospital staff said things well, and yet your parents called back repeatedly. The problem is in your parents' ability to hear, understand, and respect your requests.
Your parents' behavior was completely inappropriate, and nothing you do is likely to cause them to consistently behave in appropriate ways. A big part of this is going to be changing your view on the whole situation. They are unlikely to ever truly give you what you need in a reliable and consistent way (if at all). It sucks and is unfair, but the more deeply you realize it, the less vulnerable you will be. The less you feel like their child trying to get the kind of parent-love you deserve, and the more you view them as they are, the more you view them out of the eyes of an adult who knows that you're the one who ultimately has to take care of yourself and is building their skills to do so, the more protection you will have. I'm not trying to call you childish or blame you -- far from it. You're having to do something very hard, which is find a way to mourn what you as a child didn't get, and then give it to yourself, and then deal with hard people. It sounds like you're already taking huge steps by identifying what you want and how to get it. The way you handled it during your hospitalization was excellent. Good luck!
posted by salvia at 11:06 AM on January 9, 2015 [5 favorites]
I've read some good articles on talking to narcicissts, but I am still looking for good phrases and behaviors.
I would submit that if they are textbook narcissists, then nothing you say will make them behave towards you in they way you deserve. They may never see your feelings and needs or ask about your health instead of your dinner no matter how well you explain what you want. They sound incapable of hearing "mermaidcafe needs to focus on her own health right now so s/he needs a break from phone calls" and respecting it. As part of thinking through what you want to do, it's important to keep your expectations of how they'll react very realistic. As your question implies, there may be no way to ask for what you want that won't provoke a tantrum. The trick is to think about what you can feel good about (or live with) having said no matter how they react.
Have you decided between "no contact" and a more structured version of lower contact? Obviously, the approaches all have pros and cons -- you'll get more space from them via "no contact, " but they might go more ballistic than via a subtler approach? Or not? You can guess this better than we can. I just want to say that there is a wide spectrum of approaches, not one right way. You know better than any of us how to balance the pros and cons and what will be most self protective.
Since you're feeling a bit precarious, it might be worth asking how they will react to whatever you ask for and how you would weather their reaction. How bad will it get? (Will they get the state troopers to knock on your door or fly out to "check on you?") It'll be important to choose a boundary you're comfortable defending. Giving in after setting boundaries is worse than not setting them, as they'll assume they can push through and get you to give in when you set future boundaries.
If you feel like it would be more self-protective and practical to stay in low contact, a strategy I've heard is to work on that contact being as innocuous and boring as possible, mentally checking out, and not letting their words get to you. I've heard this referred to as "medium chill." You can pretend they're talking to your external self while your real self sits there imagining something pleasant. This will be a work in progress, so don't feel like you have to do it perfectly; you won't always succeed at staying aloof.
Either way, I don't think you actually need our help with a script, as your question was worded well. I'm sure the hospital staff said things well, and yet your parents called back repeatedly. The problem is in your parents' ability to hear, understand, and respect your requests.
Your parents' behavior was completely inappropriate, and nothing you do is likely to cause them to consistently behave in appropriate ways. A big part of this is going to be changing your view on the whole situation. They are unlikely to ever truly give you what you need in a reliable and consistent way (if at all). It sucks and is unfair, but the more deeply you realize it, the less vulnerable you will be. The less you feel like their child trying to get the kind of parent-love you deserve, and the more you view them as they are, the more you view them out of the eyes of an adult who knows that you're the one who ultimately has to take care of yourself and is building their skills to do so, the more protection you will have. I'm not trying to call you childish or blame you -- far from it. You're having to do something very hard, which is find a way to mourn what you as a child didn't get, and then give it to yourself, and then deal with hard people. It sounds like you're already taking huge steps by identifying what you want and how to get it. The way you handled it during your hospitalization was excellent. Good luck!
posted by salvia at 11:06 AM on January 9, 2015 [5 favorites]
Response by poster: Thank you all. So many good ideas here. And me finally really realizing for real that there's no winning answer with them, and I can reword all day but only total submission would be acceptable.
I also agree that I should have had been released with more support, especially since my therapist only works three days a week. I'm trying my case manager in case things get harder here. And, yes, fully prepared for the cops to come do a well-check (been there before with them after 3 days of silence), other fallout, etc. My sister is bombarded with messages from my dad asking why I am doing this to him. She's mostly staying out but told him that if i told him i needed space, this is not the way to get it.
I really hate this situation, but it's not my fault I'm in it. I so want to break free of this cycle.
posted by mermaidcafe at 11:48 AM on January 9, 2015 [5 favorites]
I also agree that I should have had been released with more support, especially since my therapist only works three days a week. I'm trying my case manager in case things get harder here. And, yes, fully prepared for the cops to come do a well-check (been there before with them after 3 days of silence), other fallout, etc. My sister is bombarded with messages from my dad asking why I am doing this to him. She's mostly staying out but told him that if i told him i needed space, this is not the way to get it.
I really hate this situation, but it's not my fault I'm in it. I so want to break free of this cycle.
posted by mermaidcafe at 11:48 AM on January 9, 2015 [5 favorites]
It doesn't sound like it's your fault at all - it sounds like you're doing exactly what you need to do to get to a better healthier place, which is awesome. And hard. And brave. Good for you!
I realized that I missed saucysault's suggestion above re: FB/blog, and wanted to second that. I suspect that's another reason the Unbelievably Self-Centered Parents are staying off my friend's back for real this time versus every other time the no-contact attempt has been made - occasional, mostly lightweight, Facebook posts prove that my friend is alive and doing stuff in the world and that may also be part of why they are miraculously keeping their distance as requested.
I suspect that another suggestion above is also relevant here - my friend has phrased it as needing "no contact with family members to avoid triggers" right now. What he really means is "no contact with you two in particular and ideally also that one terrible uncle," because he is in fact quietly in touch with his siblings, but making it Not All About Them prevents the parents from making it, well, All About Them.
I hope you find whatever combination of things helps in your situation, and that you have a few friends or loved ones you can lean on as you need to. You're doing great. If you need someone to tell you you're doing great, MeMail me anytime.
posted by Stacey at 12:24 PM on January 9, 2015
I realized that I missed saucysault's suggestion above re: FB/blog, and wanted to second that. I suspect that's another reason the Unbelievably Self-Centered Parents are staying off my friend's back for real this time versus every other time the no-contact attempt has been made - occasional, mostly lightweight, Facebook posts prove that my friend is alive and doing stuff in the world and that may also be part of why they are miraculously keeping their distance as requested.
I suspect that another suggestion above is also relevant here - my friend has phrased it as needing "no contact with family members to avoid triggers" right now. What he really means is "no contact with you two in particular and ideally also that one terrible uncle," because he is in fact quietly in touch with his siblings, but making it Not All About Them prevents the parents from making it, well, All About Them.
I hope you find whatever combination of things helps in your situation, and that you have a few friends or loved ones you can lean on as you need to. You're doing great. If you need someone to tell you you're doing great, MeMail me anytime.
posted by Stacey at 12:24 PM on January 9, 2015
When they call repeatedly, it's a way for them to try to do something about their own feelings. It does not mean that you're doing something bad or wrong in maintaining some privacy. Stick to your guns, and when you want to make contact, make contact.
posted by MrBobinski at 6:06 PM on January 9, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by MrBobinski at 6:06 PM on January 9, 2015 [1 favorite]
This might not be helpful for right now, but I've found that long term, the best way to deal with my N parents is to rely on email as my main source of interaction. There's something about seeing my mother's words written out that makes them easier to deal with. And when an email arrives, if I'm not up for reading it right away, I let it sit there a while. I take my time responding, and have trained them to think that I'm so, so busy with work -- the only thing about my life they seem to respect -- that I can't always reply as quickly as they'd like. My replies are always focussed on a set of neutral, dispassionate topics (e.g. what my choir is working on, interesting meals I've had, friends I've run into, PBS specials she might like) and never address any of the awful things she's written me about, although I always make a point to respond to any nice or neutral things she's said. She gets nothing from me about my personal life, whether it's work, dating or mental/physical health.
They get a phone call about once a month. It took a while to get here, and it's not always perfect, but it's what's worked for me. Best of luck to you.
posted by LynnDee at 9:25 PM on January 9, 2015 [1 favorite]
They get a phone call about once a month. It took a while to get here, and it's not always perfect, but it's what's worked for me. Best of luck to you.
posted by LynnDee at 9:25 PM on January 9, 2015 [1 favorite]
There's a line in a Tracy Chapman song that always resonates with me about narcs 'If I said the right words, at the right time.. would you be mine?' the targets turn in on themselves believing they are at fault/'less than' and take this out into the world :( but actually the 'standards' are unreachable and ever changing. There is no perfect sentence. This sucks.. oh how I know!
Yep neutral words, visualising being in a protective 'bubble' helps some, email and/or limited contact and learning to feel this is your right to survive. Daniel Mackler is an interesting ex therapist who kind of says how it is about dysfunctional families - you may want to look him up, also look up Karyl McBride/Good Enough Rocks radio and I think there is a Reddit threat for adult kids of narcs.
Good self care so so important with PTSD. Increase your 'exposures' very gradually, listen to what you need and draw on all the support you can. This all sucks but you are not alone with this crap and there is hope.
posted by tanktop at 4:40 AM on January 10, 2015
Yep neutral words, visualising being in a protective 'bubble' helps some, email and/or limited contact and learning to feel this is your right to survive. Daniel Mackler is an interesting ex therapist who kind of says how it is about dysfunctional families - you may want to look him up, also look up Karyl McBride/Good Enough Rocks radio and I think there is a Reddit threat for adult kids of narcs.
Good self care so so important with PTSD. Increase your 'exposures' very gradually, listen to what you need and draw on all the support you can. This all sucks but you are not alone with this crap and there is hope.
posted by tanktop at 4:40 AM on January 10, 2015
If you have the financial wherewithal, getting a burner cell phone and giving that number to your parents might be a way to get some breathing room. It sounds like your sister is supportive and in a better place - maybe she can hold the phone when you feel fragile and you can ask for it back when you want it. Then change your number and give the new number to people with the understanding that they won't pass it on to your parents. A similar thing can be done, much more cheaply, with email.
Are there support groups in the area? Not necessarily for people with Narcissistic personality disorder per se, but having a place where the focus is on supporting each other can be a big help. Your case manager or therapist might have a recommendation, or if you have a local paper, it might have listings of groups. I work with someone who is tackling a complex combination of Anxiety, Depression, and Personality struggles and she has me, her therapist, a second grief therapist, and alternative health support like an acupuncturist all focused on helping her manage a variety of symptoms. Often broadening out the support between several professionals can really help in times of crisis.
posted by Deoridhe at 2:03 PM on January 12, 2015
Are there support groups in the area? Not necessarily for people with Narcissistic personality disorder per se, but having a place where the focus is on supporting each other can be a big help. Your case manager or therapist might have a recommendation, or if you have a local paper, it might have listings of groups. I work with someone who is tackling a complex combination of Anxiety, Depression, and Personality struggles and she has me, her therapist, a second grief therapist, and alternative health support like an acupuncturist all focused on helping her manage a variety of symptoms. Often broadening out the support between several professionals can really help in times of crisis.
posted by Deoridhe at 2:03 PM on January 12, 2015
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by stowaway at 10:12 PM on January 8, 2015 [27 favorites]