Help me Focus.
January 4, 2015 6:45 PM Subscribe
My 2007 Ford Focus just refused to brake on a wet, slightly snowy road at 30 mph. The weather conditions really weren't that bad and everyone else on the road was driving at normal speeds. This car has failed to brake in snow before; I thought brand new tires last year had solved the issue. I just had the car checked over completely, in preparation for winter, and the tires were pronounced totally fine. I've noticed nothing wrong with the brakes and the car's had regular maintenance. It has less than 100,000 miles.
1. Does this just happen with lightweight cars sometimes? If you want to be sure not to slide into an intersection in the snow, do you just need a heavier car?
2. I finally managed to stop after several seconds, pulling up the emergency brake and shifting down. I am curious about the most effective down shift technique in an automatic car specifically to help stop a car: when you shift down during a stopping failure (not really a skid as I had control of steering) do you shift down while your foot is all the way down on the brake? Does this normally stop the car really quickly?
3. When this happened a couple of years ago it was not the fault of the brakes themselves. So I doubt it's the brakes now.
I would like to hear how car-savvy mefites drive small cars in the winter and whether this is something that people put up with. None of my past other cars have done this. I know I can't tolerate the risk of this and wonder how often other people have found themselves unable to stop as they approach intersections in normal, not-blizzard, winter weather.
(Also for whatever reason my traction light didn't come on; I had to push the traction manually. Normally it comes on for every slick spot on the road.)
1. Does this just happen with lightweight cars sometimes? If you want to be sure not to slide into an intersection in the snow, do you just need a heavier car?
2. I finally managed to stop after several seconds, pulling up the emergency brake and shifting down. I am curious about the most effective down shift technique in an automatic car specifically to help stop a car: when you shift down during a stopping failure (not really a skid as I had control of steering) do you shift down while your foot is all the way down on the brake? Does this normally stop the car really quickly?
3. When this happened a couple of years ago it was not the fault of the brakes themselves. So I doubt it's the brakes now.
I would like to hear how car-savvy mefites drive small cars in the winter and whether this is something that people put up with. None of my past other cars have done this. I know I can't tolerate the risk of this and wonder how often other people have found themselves unable to stop as they approach intersections in normal, not-blizzard, winter weather.
(Also for whatever reason my traction light didn't come on; I had to push the traction manually. Normally it comes on for every slick spot on the road.)
I'm super confused by your post. Is the car not braking or is it braking and then skidding? You said you weren't skidding because you could steer but you can usually steer in a skid so I don't understand what happened. If you could clarify it would be helpful.
To me, a regular snow driver, it.sounds like you lost traction and slid on ice or snow. It happens. The weight of your car won't help much unless you have snow tires or studs (they have an optimal weight range for sure). But even with 4wd and winter tires once you lose traction you're going to slide.
Just because other people are going normal speeds doesn't mean much about the road. They may have AWD or 4wd, which makes a huge difference, or they might just be lucky idiots. Or more experienced at driving on snow. Or better tires.
Speaking of which, what kind of tires do you have on it? All weather's will slide on snow and ice, even in an awd vehicle, more so in a fwd.
posted by fshgrl at 6:59 PM on January 4, 2015 [8 favorites]
To me, a regular snow driver, it.sounds like you lost traction and slid on ice or snow. It happens. The weight of your car won't help much unless you have snow tires or studs (they have an optimal weight range for sure). But even with 4wd and winter tires once you lose traction you're going to slide.
Just because other people are going normal speeds doesn't mean much about the road. They may have AWD or 4wd, which makes a huge difference, or they might just be lucky idiots. Or more experienced at driving on snow. Or better tires.
Speaking of which, what kind of tires do you have on it? All weather's will slide on snow and ice, even in an awd vehicle, more so in a fwd.
posted by fshgrl at 6:59 PM on January 4, 2015 [8 favorites]
Response by poster: To me, a regular snow driver, it.sounds like you lost traction and slid on ice or snow. It happens.
Yes, this is exactly what I mean. I mean I hit the brakes, and the car didn't stop right away because I was on slippery road. It didn't feel like what I think of as a skid because I wasn't veering, spinning or going in an uncontrolled direction. It didn't seem to brake and then skid, it just refused to stop when I told it to.
Sorry for any confusion in my driving terminology....
posted by third rail at 7:23 PM on January 4, 2015
Yes, this is exactly what I mean. I mean I hit the brakes, and the car didn't stop right away because I was on slippery road. It didn't feel like what I think of as a skid because I wasn't veering, spinning or going in an uncontrolled direction. It didn't seem to brake and then skid, it just refused to stop when I told it to.
Sorry for any confusion in my driving terminology....
posted by third rail at 7:23 PM on January 4, 2015
You locked up your wheels and slid? In that case its 95% you didn't leave yourself enough room to stop given the road conditions and abrupt braking caused you to break traction on all 4 wheels at once/ 5% one of those inexplicable weird slides that happen on snow and ice even when you're being cautious. Which is why you should be more cautious.
Sliding through intersections is a common thing in the snow because there is always tons of ice built up and polished smooth right where you need to stop from cars spinning their tires. Its the slidiest part of the road. Always aim to stop well before the intersection and just roll up to it.
Honestly, this sounds like driver inexperience and over confidence to me not a car issue. Can't hurt to have the mechanic take a look at the traction control, but keep in mind it can do nothing at all once all 4 wheels are already sliding.
posted by fshgrl at 7:31 PM on January 4, 2015 [9 favorites]
Sliding through intersections is a common thing in the snow because there is always tons of ice built up and polished smooth right where you need to stop from cars spinning their tires. Its the slidiest part of the road. Always aim to stop well before the intersection and just roll up to it.
Honestly, this sounds like driver inexperience and over confidence to me not a car issue. Can't hurt to have the mechanic take a look at the traction control, but keep in mind it can do nothing at all once all 4 wheels are already sliding.
posted by fshgrl at 7:31 PM on January 4, 2015 [9 favorites]
Not car-savvy, but did get into a minor accident last year because I didn't know what to do with anti-lock brakes in slushy/snowy conditions (and because I had year-round tires - the treads got packed with snow, but the brakes just seized, and it was because I didn't pump the brakes like vegartanipla described).
posted by cotton dress sock at 7:32 PM on January 4, 2015
posted by cotton dress sock at 7:32 PM on January 4, 2015
Anti-lock brakes do the pumping for you (down to about 5mph, below that they don't kick in). You shouldn't have to pump them, you should gold the pedal down and feel the car bumping itself . If that doesn't happen during a slide, it's mechanic time.
posted by fshgrl at 7:37 PM on January 4, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by fshgrl at 7:37 PM on January 4, 2015 [6 favorites]
Response by poster: In that case its 95% you didn't leave yourself enough room to stop given the road conditions and abrupt braking caused you to break traction on all 4 wheels at once
I don't want to thread sit, but to help with other answers: this is not what happened. I left plenty of time to brake, which is why I did manage to stop well before the intersection. I was going 30 in a 40 mph zone, along with the other traffic. I'm an experienced driver, I was careful to brake well ahead of time, and I have noticed that this particular car does not brake well on slippery roads. I'm also concerned with other people not being able to stop at intersections during my right of way. My question is about how the weight of the car, or other factors I have not considered, makes this problem worse and what to do to make it less likely to occur.
posted by third rail at 7:38 PM on January 4, 2015
I don't want to thread sit, but to help with other answers: this is not what happened. I left plenty of time to brake, which is why I did manage to stop well before the intersection. I was going 30 in a 40 mph zone, along with the other traffic. I'm an experienced driver, I was careful to brake well ahead of time, and I have noticed that this particular car does not brake well on slippery roads. I'm also concerned with other people not being able to stop at intersections during my right of way. My question is about how the weight of the car, or other factors I have not considered, makes this problem worse and what to do to make it less likely to occur.
posted by third rail at 7:38 PM on January 4, 2015
Ah, interesting, I stand corrected. (That's what I was told.. We were indeed going extremely slowly, but I didn't understand that that mattered:/). Ignore my bit!
posted by cotton dress sock at 7:40 PM on January 4, 2015
posted by cotton dress sock at 7:40 PM on January 4, 2015
When driving in snow, the best thing is to let off the gas, and not hit the break. That is, you were going 30, when you should have been going 20 when leading up to a stop, given current conditions. If you had to hit your hand break, you were indeed going too fast, no matter the weight of your car.
posted by Marie Mon Dieu at 7:49 PM on January 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Marie Mon Dieu at 7:49 PM on January 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
I'm still confused by your update. You agree that it felt exactly like you lost traction and slid, but then said it didn't feel like a skid and felt more like you didn't have any brakes. I've lost brakes before in the middle of summer, and it feels nothing like a slide or a skid. Not trying to pick on you. It would also be helpful to know how cold it was when this happened; slushy snow at 33-35 degrees is a different story than slushy snow at 32 degrees or less.
Anyhow, I'm a frequent snow/ice driver. Skidding doesn't mean you're out of control (veering, spinning, or going in an uncontrolled direction). When my 2008 Chevy Cobalt skids on ice or snow (and that's every single time there's ice or snow, and almost always at intersections), there's usually a slight pull to one direction and the brakes feel like they're shuddering, while my car refuses to brake instantly; the pull usually depends on how hard and suddenly I'm braking. Speed is a huge factor, too; I know when I'm going too fast, because that's when I'm yelling "oh, shit" as I'm skidding toward an intersection and can't stop my car. When I'm driving at a safe rate of speed, that doesn't happen.
I drove home on unsalted ice two nights ago at 3am, at 32-33 degrees F, and was going about 25-30 in a 55mph zone; I kid you not, I passed four separate accidents on that 30 mile stretch of road. At 30mph, my car was losing traction. This was minor ice--but fresh, untreated ice. Good thing I wasn't trying to keep up with traffic. So, yes, my answer to your first question is that your typical modern sedan will skid when you're braking on ice/snow. I've never had a sedan that didn't (and that includes a 1997 Taurus, a 2004 Jetta, and my Cobalt), but I've never had to use the e-brake to control or stop the skid.
posted by coast99 at 7:51 PM on January 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
Anyhow, I'm a frequent snow/ice driver. Skidding doesn't mean you're out of control (veering, spinning, or going in an uncontrolled direction). When my 2008 Chevy Cobalt skids on ice or snow (and that's every single time there's ice or snow, and almost always at intersections), there's usually a slight pull to one direction and the brakes feel like they're shuddering, while my car refuses to brake instantly; the pull usually depends on how hard and suddenly I'm braking. Speed is a huge factor, too; I know when I'm going too fast, because that's when I'm yelling "oh, shit" as I'm skidding toward an intersection and can't stop my car. When I'm driving at a safe rate of speed, that doesn't happen.
I drove home on unsalted ice two nights ago at 3am, at 32-33 degrees F, and was going about 25-30 in a 55mph zone; I kid you not, I passed four separate accidents on that 30 mile stretch of road. At 30mph, my car was losing traction. This was minor ice--but fresh, untreated ice. Good thing I wasn't trying to keep up with traffic. So, yes, my answer to your first question is that your typical modern sedan will skid when you're braking on ice/snow. I've never had a sedan that didn't (and that includes a 1997 Taurus, a 2004 Jetta, and my Cobalt), but I've never had to use the e-brake to control or stop the skid.
posted by coast99 at 7:51 PM on January 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
Tires vary widely in how well they grip the road, especially in slick, cold conditions. I'd guess you hit a slick spot with some tires that aren't especially good at solving that problem. Tire make and model would help, as would road conditions.
posted by wotsac at 7:53 PM on January 4, 2015
posted by wotsac at 7:53 PM on January 4, 2015
The weight has nothing to do with it. If anything cars (on average) are heavier now than they have been historically due to more required safety components and systems. If you want a comparison, just to set your mind at ease, the lightest four-door sedan 2012 Accord I can find (an LX version) weighs in at 3,216 lbs. To contrast a 1982 Pontiac Grand Prix weighed 3202 lbs. A 1.6L 1982 four-door Accord seems to weigh in at 2083.4 lbs. So believe people when they say your car is heavy enough to stop.
It's more likely due to a combination of your tires and your technique.
posted by sardonyx at 7:58 PM on January 4, 2015
It's more likely due to a combination of your tires and your technique.
posted by sardonyx at 7:58 PM on January 4, 2015
Can you clarify what tyres you have on your car? What size and what designation/manufacturer (ie Kumho all seasons or Michelin winter tyres).
Your car will, without any fault of the car, take longer to stop in slippery conditions. None of your clarifications have shed any light on what exactly the step difference was between what you wanted to happen (or expected to) or what actually did - are we talking about a few feet of extra stopping distance or several yards?
Wet snowy roads are THE worst conditions. You have layers of slushy snow that build up as the car shovels them ahead and then it slides over itself. So your wheels end up sitting on a piece of slush that is not moving relative to the wheel, but the wheel and slush itself is sliding over the road surface - kind of like a slush island with your wheel on it. Nothing you can do, it's just shitty road conditions. The brakes think it has stopped the car (so no fault) but you're just sliding on something a bit. Or (one or more of) the wheels are turning slightly slower than the road is and so the stopping distance is elongated.
So all cars are much harder to stop and control in those conditions. We had that exact stuff here over the weekend (Toronto/Oakville) and it was brutal, despite there being hardly anything on the ground in terms of volume of snow. It was slushy, horrible crap that you could largely see the road surface through for the most part but it was really slippy. I nearly fell over walking across Costco car park. It's just 'bad' friction and wet snow is the worst. At least with dry snow you get some retardation and friction/control.
2. I finally managed to stop after several seconds, pulling up the emergency brake and shifting down.
I suspect it was nowhere near as long as it felt , but you did the right thing for the most part. I'd avoid the emergency brake if you can, but if you were worried you wouldn't stop it's a good instinct anyway. Just consider it last resort (hence 'emergency') Gearing down and slowing the car over a greater distance is the only real answer in those kinds of conditions, though.
Basically, in snow and slippery conditions you need to use your brakes MUCH less. Do your slowing more gradually and early. Give more room. Driving normally and just giving yourself an extra 30 feet is not enough. The conditions preclude any rapid changes of speed and/or loads and normal braking to a stop uses much more of the tyres than you perhaps have appreciated. So try and slow as much as possible just by letting the car slow, not braking. When I drive in slippery conditions I try not to use the brake at all except for the last 10 feet (ie 5mph to stop). Preparation and planning is key.
3. When this happened a couple of years ago it was not the fault of the brakes themselves. So I doubt it's the brakes now.
It's not the car. It's purely conditions. There was just less grip than you realised and your car is susceptible to those conditions a bit. It probably means it is better in deeper snow than a heavier car so it's more of a trade off than an issue with your car. Weight does make a difference - especially in slush, actually - but it is not a 'problem' as such, just a characteristic.
So TL/DR:
1: You were trying to stop in too short a space for the conditions. Sorry, but it's true. Try and slow the car over a longer distance and more gradually.
2: There is nothing wrong with your car. UNLESS:
3: You don't have winter tyres. If you have summer tyres, beat yourself and change them IMMEDIATELY. If you have all season tyres, then you really should consider proper winter tyres. They are a TON better in poor conditions than all seasons. 'All season' is not possible. You end up with just a compromised tyre for winter and summer (better than a summer tyre in winter, better than a winter tyre in summer, better than neither in the right conditions).
posted by Brockles at 8:02 PM on January 4, 2015 [11 favorites]
Your car will, without any fault of the car, take longer to stop in slippery conditions. None of your clarifications have shed any light on what exactly the step difference was between what you wanted to happen (or expected to) or what actually did - are we talking about a few feet of extra stopping distance or several yards?
Wet snowy roads are THE worst conditions. You have layers of slushy snow that build up as the car shovels them ahead and then it slides over itself. So your wheels end up sitting on a piece of slush that is not moving relative to the wheel, but the wheel and slush itself is sliding over the road surface - kind of like a slush island with your wheel on it. Nothing you can do, it's just shitty road conditions. The brakes think it has stopped the car (so no fault) but you're just sliding on something a bit. Or (one or more of) the wheels are turning slightly slower than the road is and so the stopping distance is elongated.
So all cars are much harder to stop and control in those conditions. We had that exact stuff here over the weekend (Toronto/Oakville) and it was brutal, despite there being hardly anything on the ground in terms of volume of snow. It was slushy, horrible crap that you could largely see the road surface through for the most part but it was really slippy. I nearly fell over walking across Costco car park. It's just 'bad' friction and wet snow is the worst. At least with dry snow you get some retardation and friction/control.
2. I finally managed to stop after several seconds, pulling up the emergency brake and shifting down.
I suspect it was nowhere near as long as it felt , but you did the right thing for the most part. I'd avoid the emergency brake if you can, but if you were worried you wouldn't stop it's a good instinct anyway. Just consider it last resort (hence 'emergency') Gearing down and slowing the car over a greater distance is the only real answer in those kinds of conditions, though.
Basically, in snow and slippery conditions you need to use your brakes MUCH less. Do your slowing more gradually and early. Give more room. Driving normally and just giving yourself an extra 30 feet is not enough. The conditions preclude any rapid changes of speed and/or loads and normal braking to a stop uses much more of the tyres than you perhaps have appreciated. So try and slow as much as possible just by letting the car slow, not braking. When I drive in slippery conditions I try not to use the brake at all except for the last 10 feet (ie 5mph to stop). Preparation and planning is key.
3. When this happened a couple of years ago it was not the fault of the brakes themselves. So I doubt it's the brakes now.
It's not the car. It's purely conditions. There was just less grip than you realised and your car is susceptible to those conditions a bit. It probably means it is better in deeper snow than a heavier car so it's more of a trade off than an issue with your car. Weight does make a difference - especially in slush, actually - but it is not a 'problem' as such, just a characteristic.
So TL/DR:
1: You were trying to stop in too short a space for the conditions. Sorry, but it's true. Try and slow the car over a longer distance and more gradually.
2: There is nothing wrong with your car. UNLESS:
3: You don't have winter tyres. If you have summer tyres, beat yourself and change them IMMEDIATELY. If you have all season tyres, then you really should consider proper winter tyres. They are a TON better in poor conditions than all seasons. 'All season' is not possible. You end up with just a compromised tyre for winter and summer (better than a summer tyre in winter, better than a winter tyre in summer, better than neither in the right conditions).
posted by Brockles at 8:02 PM on January 4, 2015 [11 favorites]
Response by poster: In answer to the tire question: I have all season (Firestone) tires. That's what the dealer/mechanic recommended for my region but thanks to these answers, I'll be investing in winter tires.
Finally, for the last time: I did not leave too little time to stop; in fact I left *so much* room to brake that there was no danger of going into the intersection. This simply happened on the road. (There was barely any precipitation, and it's good to know this actually makes the traction worse.) The question is that *I was just gently braking and noticing that the car wouldn't respond immediately to the braking action.* That's why there was no question of my rear ending anyone or going into an intersection. But I STILL don't like the feeling of not having total control when braking and hence this question.
posted by third rail at 8:12 PM on January 4, 2015
Finally, for the last time: I did not leave too little time to stop; in fact I left *so much* room to brake that there was no danger of going into the intersection. This simply happened on the road. (There was barely any precipitation, and it's good to know this actually makes the traction worse.) The question is that *I was just gently braking and noticing that the car wouldn't respond immediately to the braking action.* That's why there was no question of my rear ending anyone or going into an intersection. But I STILL don't like the feeling of not having total control when braking and hence this question.
posted by third rail at 8:12 PM on January 4, 2015
What's your tire pressure like? Incorrect pressurization reduces traction. Remember it's variable with temperature.
posted by feloniousmonk at 8:16 PM on January 4, 2015
posted by feloniousmonk at 8:16 PM on January 4, 2015
The question is that *I was just gently braking and noticing that the car wouldn't respond immediately to the braking action.
Yep. And the response still is - no matter how much you don't like it - that you were trying to brake too hard for the conditions. It's just *is*. Whether you could have predicted that, I'm not prepared to comment as I have no way of knowing - maybe not, maybe so. But the friction was not there for you to slow the car at the rate you wanted to, which was sufficiently different to your expected response from the car that this is an issue. If the car lost grip then you were asking too much of it. That is just fact.
You are quite right to not like the feeling of not having full control of the car under braking. But the issue is that you were asking too much braking force for the conditions to supply you with.
The car was not able to slow on that surface in the way you wanted. It looks like you need to adjust your perception of what 'gentle' braking is for the conditions you were in because you were wrong. Proof: the car was unable to slow as you expected it to. It's not about where you brake (how much room) so much, as the distance within which you expect to lose the speed once you started braking. You were asking too much from your car, the conditions and the tyres. That is why the car slid. It is no judgment on you, just a learning experience.
You are quite right to not like the feeling of not having full control of the car under braking. But the issue is you asking too much braking force for conditions to supply. Please take the learning experience and stop trying to dig in and insist you left enough room and other irrelevancies. You didn't have an accident (through leaving enough room through your experience), but you have a misconception related to one aspect of winter driving and you need to recognise it and react accordingly. And change your driving style accordingly.
posted by Brockles at 8:23 PM on January 4, 2015 [11 favorites]
Yep. And the response still is - no matter how much you don't like it - that you were trying to brake too hard for the conditions. It's just *is*. Whether you could have predicted that, I'm not prepared to comment as I have no way of knowing - maybe not, maybe so. But the friction was not there for you to slow the car at the rate you wanted to, which was sufficiently different to your expected response from the car that this is an issue. If the car lost grip then you were asking too much of it. That is just fact.
You are quite right to not like the feeling of not having full control of the car under braking. But the issue is that you were asking too much braking force for the conditions to supply you with.
The car was not able to slow on that surface in the way you wanted. It looks like you need to adjust your perception of what 'gentle' braking is for the conditions you were in because you were wrong. Proof: the car was unable to slow as you expected it to. It's not about where you brake (how much room) so much, as the distance within which you expect to lose the speed once you started braking. You were asking too much from your car, the conditions and the tyres. That is why the car slid. It is no judgment on you, just a learning experience.
You are quite right to not like the feeling of not having full control of the car under braking. But the issue is you asking too much braking force for conditions to supply. Please take the learning experience and stop trying to dig in and insist you left enough room and other irrelevancies. You didn't have an accident (through leaving enough room through your experience), but you have a misconception related to one aspect of winter driving and you need to recognise it and react accordingly. And change your driving style accordingly.
posted by Brockles at 8:23 PM on January 4, 2015 [11 favorites]
This is an honest question, it's not meant to be snarky: how much recent winter driving experience do you have with snow, slush and ice? I ask because your profile indicates you're in LA, and I can't imagine the conditions being too common.
Here in the Great White North, it usually takes people two or three good snowfalls to get the feeling back and become acclimatized to winter driving. Even then it's really easy to misjudge the conditions, especially if they are variable. Which is why we have accidents that close down everything from major highways to country lanes. Mistakes happen in winter more frequently than they do in good, dry, warm conditions.
posted by sardonyx at 8:28 PM on January 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
Here in the Great White North, it usually takes people two or three good snowfalls to get the feeling back and become acclimatized to winter driving. Even then it's really easy to misjudge the conditions, especially if they are variable. Which is why we have accidents that close down everything from major highways to country lanes. Mistakes happen in winter more frequently than they do in good, dry, warm conditions.
posted by sardonyx at 8:28 PM on January 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
Best answer: Then again, yeah, driving in slush is a different beast. You need snow tires, not all-season radials. If it is slushy or snowy then you are not going to stop.
I say this as someone who lives in a region where it almost never ever snows, and people have all season tires. When it does snow even an eighth of an inch, it is chaos here.
I have also lived in "snow country" and have a lot of experience with winter driving. Snow tires are a must and make all the difference in the world even in slushy conditions.
That is your problem right there.
posted by Nevin at 8:31 PM on January 4, 2015
I say this as someone who lives in a region where it almost never ever snows, and people have all season tires. When it does snow even an eighth of an inch, it is chaos here.
I have also lived in "snow country" and have a lot of experience with winter driving. Snow tires are a must and make all the difference in the world even in slushy conditions.
That is your problem right there.
posted by Nevin at 8:31 PM on January 4, 2015
Best answer: the weight of the car absolutely matters, especially how much weight is over the drive axle. your focus weighs around 2000lbs, which is pretty light. if you were driving a rwd pickup you could load up the bed and get much better traction... there's not much you can do but get snow tires.
on the other hand, I've found driving small cars in the snow is all about managing the skids. you can manage if you can handle sliding around a bit, but stopping is always going to be less possible.
posted by ennui.bz at 8:34 PM on January 4, 2015
on the other hand, I've found driving small cars in the snow is all about managing the skids. you can manage if you can handle sliding around a bit, but stopping is always going to be less possible.
posted by ennui.bz at 8:34 PM on January 4, 2015
Your description of the situation makes it sound like it's weather related. It doesn't matter how good your tires are or how much experience you have sometimes the ice can just do you in.
posted by lester at 8:34 PM on January 4, 2015
posted by lester at 8:34 PM on January 4, 2015
Sorry. For some reason I thought you had an Accord, not a focus (probably got too many tabs open). To provide you with actually relevant numbers, Edmunds is listing a 2012 Focus' curb weight at 2,935 (manufacturer's estimate). In 2000 the website says it was 2,564 lbs. So it's a) heavier and b) heavy enough to stop.
posted by sardonyx at 8:35 PM on January 4, 2015
posted by sardonyx at 8:35 PM on January 4, 2015
Ford Focus seems to have notable brake issues. That could be it too.
That random google search is incredibly misleading and not at all helpful. Nor is it indicative of any 'problem' with a Ford Focus brake system. So your link is just noise - replace Ford Focus with any other car model and you get similar results. None of the major results show any actual 'problems' with the Focus, but people asking about servicing issues - brakes are a wear component. They wear out.
ethe weight of the car absolutely matters, especially how much weight is over the drive axle.
We're talking about braking. Weight over the drive axle *is* irrelevant. The weight of the car can affect how the car brakes in different conditions but it is not a major factor to the issue in the OP.
posted by Brockles at 8:36 PM on January 4, 2015 [4 favorites]
That random google search is incredibly misleading and not at all helpful. Nor is it indicative of any 'problem' with a Ford Focus brake system. So your link is just noise - replace Ford Focus with any other car model and you get similar results. None of the major results show any actual 'problems' with the Focus, but people asking about servicing issues - brakes are a wear component. They wear out.
ethe weight of the car absolutely matters, especially how much weight is over the drive axle.
We're talking about braking. Weight over the drive axle *is* irrelevant. The weight of the car can affect how the car brakes in different conditions but it is not a major factor to the issue in the OP.
posted by Brockles at 8:36 PM on January 4, 2015 [4 favorites]
Okay how can you tell it's way past my bedtime. A 2007 Focus (have I finally got that right) seems to be about 2,685 lbs. But my general answer still stands: it's not the car's weight that was the problem in your situation. Good night.
posted by sardonyx at 8:41 PM on January 4, 2015
posted by sardonyx at 8:41 PM on January 4, 2015
Response by poster: Thanks folks. I'm going to get snow tires to help with the traction.
Someone just sent me a review saying the 2007 Focus is awful in snow and needs snow tires...! Sigh, it was barely even snowing tonight.
Thanks for answering, all!
posted by third rail at 8:59 PM on January 4, 2015
Someone just sent me a review saying the 2007 Focus is awful in snow and needs snow tires...! Sigh, it was barely even snowing tonight.
Thanks for answering, all!
posted by third rail at 8:59 PM on January 4, 2015
Yes, this is exactly what I mean. I mean I hit the brakes, and the car didn't stop right away because I was on slippery roadSo, just to be totally explicit, you lost traction with the road. That is, the brakes successfully slowed or stopped the wheels, but the wheels did not successfully slow or stop the car. Instead, the tires slipped or slid against the road.
If that's correct, then it's as everyone above says—the problem is not in the braking system; it is between the tires and the road surface. The brakes did their job by making the wheels spin slower. The tires failed to do their job, because that particular combination of surface and tire didn't provide enough grip to match the braking power that was used. For that surface, you needed higher-traction tires or less braking power or both.
posted by mbrubeck at 9:00 PM on January 4, 2015 [3 favorites]
the heavier the vehicle, the more the tread can push the slush away and come in contact with the road surface. depending on how the weight is distributed over your axles, your car will absolutely brake differently, though that might not come out strictly in stopping power when there is loss of traction.
posted by ennui.bz at 9:05 PM on January 4, 2015
posted by ennui.bz at 9:05 PM on January 4, 2015
The brakes will respond differently in snow/slush than on dry pavement. They will still work, though. Snow tires may improve things; adding weight to the car (bags of kitty litter, etc.) may as well. But largely I think it's just something you need to learn to manage.
I would take the car to a nice big parking lot on an early morning and practice getting up to speed and braking. Pick some mark out in the distance and imagine it's a stopped vehicle, and then let yourself get various distances away from it, so you have to brake softly / hard / panic-brake, so you can learn how the car responds.
It may be that you just have to apply the brakes harder in snow than you are used to on dry pavement, in order to get the car's weight to shift to the front wheels, which amplifies your stopping power.
(As an aside: If you are not used to driving with ABS, you should definitely play around with braking hard enough to engage it, so you know what it feels like and you learn not to panic and take your foot off. Don't tap or pump the brakes, let the system do its thing if you need to stop quickly, but knowing approximately when it'll kick in is good.)
A gradual, controlled stop is the best-case scenario for winter driving; 4- or 2-wheel skids, loss of ability to steer, etc., are not. But you should under no circumstances be able to get shorter stopping distances by downshifting than by using the brakes. That's very weird and hard to explain. The brakes have more stopping power available than the engine. Barring some problem with the car's brakes—unlikely, but possible, and worth getting ruled out certainly—you may just need to apply the brakes harder.
posted by Kadin2048 at 9:06 PM on January 4, 2015
I would take the car to a nice big parking lot on an early morning and practice getting up to speed and braking. Pick some mark out in the distance and imagine it's a stopped vehicle, and then let yourself get various distances away from it, so you have to brake softly / hard / panic-brake, so you can learn how the car responds.
It may be that you just have to apply the brakes harder in snow than you are used to on dry pavement, in order to get the car's weight to shift to the front wheels, which amplifies your stopping power.
(As an aside: If you are not used to driving with ABS, you should definitely play around with braking hard enough to engage it, so you know what it feels like and you learn not to panic and take your foot off. Don't tap or pump the brakes, let the system do its thing if you need to stop quickly, but knowing approximately when it'll kick in is good.)
A gradual, controlled stop is the best-case scenario for winter driving; 4- or 2-wheel skids, loss of ability to steer, etc., are not. But you should under no circumstances be able to get shorter stopping distances by downshifting than by using the brakes. That's very weird and hard to explain. The brakes have more stopping power available than the engine. Barring some problem with the car's brakes—unlikely, but possible, and worth getting ruled out certainly—you may just need to apply the brakes harder.
posted by Kadin2048 at 9:06 PM on January 4, 2015
Best answer: I have a ford focus that I love because it is as light as a feather!! It has zero traction and I would never ever ever take it into snow or ice. Snow tires are a must and consider putting something heavy in the trunk over the winter - other than that I'd say, not an ideal winter road car...
posted by Toddles at 10:06 PM on January 4, 2015
posted by Toddles at 10:06 PM on January 4, 2015
Note that winter tires aren't strictly for snowy conditions - below 7°C/45°F, they are supposed to have better traction in general than all-seasons.
posted by parudox at 10:14 PM on January 4, 2015
posted by parudox at 10:14 PM on January 4, 2015
Best answer: My 2007 Ford Focus just refused to brake on a wet, slightly snowy road at 30 mph. The weather conditions really weren't that bad and everyone else on the road was driving at normal speed.
This is what I'd expect if your ABS (Anti-lock Braking System) wasn't working, but everyone else's was.
I found a number of UK sites claiming that Ford Focuses of your's year are known for frequent ABS pump module failures; this one, for example:
(Also for whatever reason my traction light didn't come on; I had to push the traction manually. Normally it comes on for every slick spot on the road.)
The ABS and traction control do both depend on wheel speed sensors, though:
posted by jamjam at 11:02 PM on January 4, 2015
This is what I'd expect if your ABS (Anti-lock Braking System) wasn't working, but everyone else's was.
I found a number of UK sites claiming that Ford Focuses of your's year are known for frequent ABS pump module failures; this one, for example:
This ABS Pump Module is a very common failure for the Ford Focus & C-Max vehicles built between 2004 - 2008. The fault causes the ESP light to illuminate permanently on the instrument cluster.However, you don't describe such a light, and I'm not sure a failure of the ABS pump module would explain the anomalies of the Traction Control light you mention:
(Also for whatever reason my traction light didn't come on; I had to push the traction manually. Normally it comes on for every slick spot on the road.)
The ABS and traction control do both depend on wheel speed sensors, though:
Traction control monitors wheel speed using ABS wheel speed sensors ...so perhaps the failure is somewhere in the chain of devices that detect and compare wheel speeds -- but it still surprises me you aren't seeing a pattern of warning lights if that's the case.
posted by jamjam at 11:02 PM on January 4, 2015
Where I live we get maybe four or five major snowfalls a winter and there are many slushy days and icy mornings and nights and black ice and piles of snow. There are a whole lot of places around town to avoid like the plague when the snow is flying or the roads are icy - most everyone knows about these - but there are also a few that aren't well known. One is a small hill on a somewhat busy arterial with a traffic light at the bottom. There's a pub on the corner and it would be a great spot to just sit and watch the show because it's nearly impossible for anyone to stop their car or truck effectively at that stoplight when coming down that little bitty hill when the road is icy or snow-packed; if you're unfortunate enough to be on that street and headed down the hill, you want to be going no more than 5 mph - I mean, barely crawling - as you tip the nose of your car over the hill and start down and it's still almost guaranteed that you'll slide to either the right or left as you come down the hill and when you hit the intersection you'll slide sideways into it. Over the years, I've been told a dozen times that only a poor driver slides, you don't know what you're doing, you're braking too hard, your tires aren't right, you're going too fast, etc. Huh.
I've lived so many years in the high country of Colorado, in Flagstaff and Alpine, Arizona, Salt Lake City, and I drove for about 10 years here, and I've slid all over the place, buried my nose in snowbanks (a kick in a VW bus) and yes, had a few fender benders, but I've also logged thousands of miles of driving successfully on icy and slushy and snow-packed roads, through blizzards and the horror of night-time blizzards, and I do know what I'm doing. But hey - that little bitty hill over here on the NW side of Spokane? It's waiting for you.
Sometimes ice and slush and snow wins. By all means get snow tires on your vehicle and if it's not front-wheel drive, put weight in the trunk or the back seat - a couple of bags of sand will do it. Remember where the tricky spots are and avoid them, find out what kind of brakes you have and if there are any tricks to driving with those brakes, and then just relax and figure it's winter and sooner or later the ice or snow will beat you - hopefully, just a little bit.
Spring is coming!
posted by aryma at 2:35 AM on January 5, 2015
I've lived so many years in the high country of Colorado, in Flagstaff and Alpine, Arizona, Salt Lake City, and I drove for about 10 years here, and I've slid all over the place, buried my nose in snowbanks (a kick in a VW bus) and yes, had a few fender benders, but I've also logged thousands of miles of driving successfully on icy and slushy and snow-packed roads, through blizzards and the horror of night-time blizzards, and I do know what I'm doing. But hey - that little bitty hill over here on the NW side of Spokane? It's waiting for you.
Sometimes ice and slush and snow wins. By all means get snow tires on your vehicle and if it's not front-wheel drive, put weight in the trunk or the back seat - a couple of bags of sand will do it. Remember where the tricky spots are and avoid them, find out what kind of brakes you have and if there are any tricks to driving with those brakes, and then just relax and figure it's winter and sooner or later the ice or snow will beat you - hopefully, just a little bit.
Spring is coming!
posted by aryma at 2:35 AM on January 5, 2015
Cars aren't going to be too light for snow. People up here race motorcycles on frozen lakes to give an extreme example of lightness on snow and ice. And rally cars have often been lighter than your car.
fshgrl: "You shouldn't have to pump them, you should gold the pedal down and feel the car bumping itself . If that doesn't happen during a slide, it's mechanic time"
ABS senses a difference in rotation speed of your four wheels; in a four wheel skid there is no difference and the ABS will not engage. (And if the road conditions are uniform you will slid directly forward; Newton's first Law). This is why pumping ABS brakes in a four wheel skid will sometimes break the skid though what you really want to do is ease off the brakes until you regain traction. In extreme conditions this might mean no braking at all.
ennui.bz: "the weight of the car absolutely matters, especially how much weight is over the drive axle. your focus weighs around 2000lbs, which is pretty light. if you were driving a rwd pickup you could load up the bed and get much better traction... there's not much you can do but get snow tires.
"
I drove a 2000lb, non-ABS, RWD coupe for years during Canadian winters without a problem. Overall mass is not a factor per se, rather the distribution of that mass. Tire selection (type and size), driving technique and awareness of limitations are the important thing. Adding mass increases stopping distances but in pickups the increased traction to the rear axle to a certain extent distributes the weight in a way that is more helpful than the harm imposed by the mass. But that affect is most pronounced when accelerating not stopping. This situation is almost never the case in relatively well balanced FWD cars.
posted by Mitheral at 6:09 AM on January 5, 2015
fshgrl: "You shouldn't have to pump them, you should gold the pedal down and feel the car bumping itself . If that doesn't happen during a slide, it's mechanic time"
ABS senses a difference in rotation speed of your four wheels; in a four wheel skid there is no difference and the ABS will not engage. (And if the road conditions are uniform you will slid directly forward; Newton's first Law). This is why pumping ABS brakes in a four wheel skid will sometimes break the skid though what you really want to do is ease off the brakes until you regain traction. In extreme conditions this might mean no braking at all.
ennui.bz: "the weight of the car absolutely matters, especially how much weight is over the drive axle. your focus weighs around 2000lbs, which is pretty light. if you were driving a rwd pickup you could load up the bed and get much better traction... there's not much you can do but get snow tires.
"
I drove a 2000lb, non-ABS, RWD coupe for years during Canadian winters without a problem. Overall mass is not a factor per se, rather the distribution of that mass. Tire selection (type and size), driving technique and awareness of limitations are the important thing. Adding mass increases stopping distances but in pickups the increased traction to the rear axle to a certain extent distributes the weight in a way that is more helpful than the harm imposed by the mass. But that affect is most pronounced when accelerating not stopping. This situation is almost never the case in relatively well balanced FWD cars.
posted by Mitheral at 6:09 AM on January 5, 2015
Overall mass is not a factor per se, rather the distribution of that mass.
Completely correct and I missed that earlier - the size of the tyre relative to the vehicle dictates the pressure each tyre exerts on the road. A smaller tyre on a lighter car may well have exactly the same loading per square inch of contact patch as a larger tyre on a heavier car. So the mass of the vehicle *is* irrelevant unless you take into account contact patch size.
This, incidentally, is often why thinner tyres work better in winter (and saves you money) - snow tyres on full rally cars (to give an extreme example) are often nearly half the width of their tarmac/dry versions.
posted by Brockles at 6:28 AM on January 5, 2015 [1 favorite]
Completely correct and I missed that earlier - the size of the tyre relative to the vehicle dictates the pressure each tyre exerts on the road. A smaller tyre on a lighter car may well have exactly the same loading per square inch of contact patch as a larger tyre on a heavier car. So the mass of the vehicle *is* irrelevant unless you take into account contact patch size.
This, incidentally, is often why thinner tyres work better in winter (and saves you money) - snow tyres on full rally cars (to give an extreme example) are often nearly half the width of their tarmac/dry versions.
posted by Brockles at 6:28 AM on January 5, 2015 [1 favorite]
The trick with driving small, light cars in snow is that it is all about managing the skid. They make it easy, because you get lots of tactile, seat-of-the-pants feedback. It can be lots of fun, once you get good at it.
Better tires will definitely help, but really, you should find a vacant parking lot and practice some skids and spins until you get a feel for how the car handles and responds.
One other tip - with a FWD car in snow, you can use the throttle to regain steering authority. It is helpful to be in a lower gear, but the idea is that over-rotation (spinning) can be more helpful than under-rotation (skidding) - so point the wheel where you want to go and give a little gas. Again, it takes some practice, but is a very useful technique.
One last thing. The weakness of ABS systems on snow/ice is that if all tires have stopped rotating (a skid in near total loss of traction), the ABS system has no idea what the actual speed should be and can behave strangely. In my Tacoma, this results in the ABS system believing the truck is stopped even as it slides and so the ABS goes idle. Judicious engine braking can help avoid this situation. Again, practice.
Some VSC/Traction Control systems will fight you for control. I had a Ford Contour rental in a snowstorm few weeks ago, and it was nerve wracking trying to steer against the computer. I have no good advice for that - in my Tacoma, I can turn that stuff off
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 7:55 AM on January 5, 2015
Better tires will definitely help, but really, you should find a vacant parking lot and practice some skids and spins until you get a feel for how the car handles and responds.
One other tip - with a FWD car in snow, you can use the throttle to regain steering authority. It is helpful to be in a lower gear, but the idea is that over-rotation (spinning) can be more helpful than under-rotation (skidding) - so point the wheel where you want to go and give a little gas. Again, it takes some practice, but is a very useful technique.
One last thing. The weakness of ABS systems on snow/ice is that if all tires have stopped rotating (a skid in near total loss of traction), the ABS system has no idea what the actual speed should be and can behave strangely. In my Tacoma, this results in the ABS system believing the truck is stopped even as it slides and so the ABS goes idle. Judicious engine braking can help avoid this situation. Again, practice.
Some VSC/Traction Control systems will fight you for control. I had a Ford Contour rental in a snowstorm few weeks ago, and it was nerve wracking trying to steer against the computer. I have no good advice for that - in my Tacoma, I can turn that stuff off
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 7:55 AM on January 5, 2015
I have a light (Mazda3 hatchback) car with all-season tires without ABS that I drive in Chicago. What I do is not only give plenty of room for myself to stop in snowy/slushy conditions, but also push the brake verrrrrry gently and if i feel even the slightest bit of slip I release the brake for a split second and re-apply, again verrrrry gently. I'm not sure how this technique works if you do have ABS but for me, once you've started sliding, pushing the brake harder isn't going to help because the wheels have already stopped rotating.
(Actually, I do the same thing when I'm riding my bicycle in the snow. You just have to let the wheel rotate a bit to get past the packed up slush that has turned your wheels into sleds.)
posted by misskaz at 8:02 AM on January 5, 2015
(Actually, I do the same thing when I'm riding my bicycle in the snow. You just have to let the wheel rotate a bit to get past the packed up slush that has turned your wheels into sleds.)
posted by misskaz at 8:02 AM on January 5, 2015
It seems the question has been answered, but I would note that the only button in the car related to traction is the one that turns the traction control off (or back on again). There's no way to manually make the traction control activate.
posted by ftm at 8:51 AM on January 5, 2015
posted by ftm at 8:51 AM on January 5, 2015
ABS senses a difference in rotation speed of your four wheels; in a four wheel skid there is no difference and the ABS will not engage.
In theory. In reality on snowy roads it engages a lot on most cars that have it because you rarely lock up all 4 wheels in perfect synchronicity.
posted by fshgrl at 9:20 AM on January 5, 2015
In theory. In reality on snowy roads it engages a lot on most cars that have it because you rarely lock up all 4 wheels in perfect synchronicity.
posted by fshgrl at 9:20 AM on January 5, 2015
I want to second the person who said to aim to not brake in snowy or icy conditions, but to coast to a stop in a small car with all season tires. Snow tires are expensive and kind of unecessary if you do not live in a snowy area. If you're just getting this weatehr occasionally, changing your technique slightly is best.
posted by WeekendJen at 9:52 AM on January 5, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by WeekendJen at 9:52 AM on January 5, 2015 [1 favorite]
Best answer: Snow tires are expensive and kind of unecessary if you do not live in a snowy area.
This is incorrect and is oft repeated urban myth based on a lack of understanding of how tyres are rated.
Winter tyres are designed for cold conditions *and* snow. If your location sees temperatures below 7 deg C (44 fahrenheit) for prolonged periods, then winter tyres will give a marked improvement in grip and safety even on dry roads.
posted by Brockles at 11:00 AM on January 5, 2015 [1 favorite]
This is incorrect and is oft repeated urban myth based on a lack of understanding of how tyres are rated.
Winter tyres are designed for cold conditions *and* snow. If your location sees temperatures below 7 deg C (44 fahrenheit) for prolonged periods, then winter tyres will give a marked improvement in grip and safety even on dry roads.
posted by Brockles at 11:00 AM on January 5, 2015 [1 favorite]
If you heard a thumping sound, your anti-lock braking features may have kicked in. That happens when your car senses a skid, and refuses to engage the brakes on the tires that are sliding. On an AWD vehicle, you may actually feel the system searching for traction from one tire to the next. The idea is that when you skid you aren't slowing down much anyway, and besides that, you can't steer.
Even downshifting can be problematic if it causes you to lose traction. Using the emergency brake could be spectacularly bad. On ice nothing works well, but picking your foot off the accelerator often is your only workable ploy. With a standard tranny, even that ought to be done gradually.
posted by mule98J at 11:38 AM on January 5, 2015
Even downshifting can be problematic if it causes you to lose traction. Using the emergency brake could be spectacularly bad. On ice nothing works well, but picking your foot off the accelerator often is your only workable ploy. With a standard tranny, even that ought to be done gradually.
posted by mule98J at 11:38 AM on January 5, 2015
I'm surprised Brockles didn't comment on this, because it made me wince inside when I read it -- using the e-brake when in a skid seems like one of the worst things you could possibly do. (Although I could be wrong about this, because it seems bad enough to me that I'd never even think of trying it... If so, I aplogize andI welcome a correction.) Traditionally, and I'm pretty sure this is still the case even with increasing automation and drive-by-wire, a parking brake is almost always a direct physical connection to the brakes of the rear wheels. Yanking this in a low-traction situation has a very good chance of locking your rear wheels, and only your rear wheels, and with the physical linkage ABS is going to be able to do nothing about it. Once your rear wheels are locked you have an uneven braking situation and it becomes much easier for your rear end to come around on you. Now you have a bigger problem.
I'd even be careful of down-shifting in an automatic, once already in a skid. Those automated downshifts never seem very smooth to me, and if you're sufficiently unlucky a sudden forward weight transfer could have the effect of giving you traction on the front wheels at the same time as your rears come loose, and then, again... your back end will decide it wants to go faster than your front end, and you will be sad. The time for downshifting is before you lose traction. Once you're in it you want to do everything you can to slow the car with smooth, gradual inputs.
And from someone who grew up in the south but has been a driver in snow country for 10 years now: do not under-estimate the value of winter tires even if you don't frequently drive in snow. As as been noted above, all-season tire compounds (and summer even more so) get hard when the weather gets cold, and you lose overall traction. Add a nice loose covering of salt-dust, if you live in an area where they salt the roads, and even good all-season tires can do a surprisingly good ice skate impression on perfectly dry but cold roads.
posted by jammer at 12:40 PM on January 5, 2015 [2 favorites]
I'd even be careful of down-shifting in an automatic, once already in a skid. Those automated downshifts never seem very smooth to me, and if you're sufficiently unlucky a sudden forward weight transfer could have the effect of giving you traction on the front wheels at the same time as your rears come loose, and then, again... your back end will decide it wants to go faster than your front end, and you will be sad. The time for downshifting is before you lose traction. Once you're in it you want to do everything you can to slow the car with smooth, gradual inputs.
And from someone who grew up in the south but has been a driver in snow country for 10 years now: do not under-estimate the value of winter tires even if you don't frequently drive in snow. As as been noted above, all-season tire compounds (and summer even more so) get hard when the weather gets cold, and you lose overall traction. Add a nice loose covering of salt-dust, if you live in an area where they salt the roads, and even good all-season tires can do a surprisingly good ice skate impression on perfectly dry but cold roads.
posted by jammer at 12:40 PM on January 5, 2015 [2 favorites]
I did comment on it. I said to avoid using the e-0brake if at all possible and only as a last gasp emergency measure. If your wheels are already locked in a slushy/snow situation, then it does no harm (the wheels are potentially already locked) but does help if the brakes are the issue (if they are not being slowed by the brakes themselves). But it *is* an emergency issue. Not at all advisable unless as a last resort.
I'd even be careful of down-shifting in an automatic, once already in a skid.
I wasn't referring to being in a skid for the most part, but in avoiding it. If you're already in a skid and don't have the option of getting the wheels rolling again to regain control (which is the correct response but presumably you can't because you don't have enough room) then it won't make it worse, that's for sure. Throwing everything at it is a good idea and a transmission jolt may actually force an already locked wheel to rotate and you *could* regain some control that way. It's last gasp stuff, sure, but if you're sliding anyway and need to keep stopping I'm ok with pulling all the levers and knobs to try and stop. There may not be enough time to establish (for a less experienced driver) if you're sliding or if the brakes aren't working.
But as for downshifting: I'm talking about the gentlest of gentle really, and maybe only one gear (so using 5th or 4th depending on your gearbox and at already low speeds. Just above 'negligible to noticeable' engine braking. Ideally only slowing through lifting off throttle is the best approach if it is really slippy. You want the bare minimum of deceleration to retain traction in slippery conditions and I'd only downshift if you were in a high enough gear (ie low enough rpm) that zero throttle produced no discernible slowing effect.
posted by Brockles at 2:38 PM on January 5, 2015
I'd even be careful of down-shifting in an automatic, once already in a skid.
I wasn't referring to being in a skid for the most part, but in avoiding it. If you're already in a skid and don't have the option of getting the wheels rolling again to regain control (which is the correct response but presumably you can't because you don't have enough room) then it won't make it worse, that's for sure. Throwing everything at it is a good idea and a transmission jolt may actually force an already locked wheel to rotate and you *could* regain some control that way. It's last gasp stuff, sure, but if you're sliding anyway and need to keep stopping I'm ok with pulling all the levers and knobs to try and stop. There may not be enough time to establish (for a less experienced driver) if you're sliding or if the brakes aren't working.
But as for downshifting: I'm talking about the gentlest of gentle really, and maybe only one gear (so using 5th or 4th depending on your gearbox and at already low speeds. Just above 'negligible to noticeable' engine braking. Ideally only slowing through lifting off throttle is the best approach if it is really slippy. You want the bare minimum of deceleration to retain traction in slippery conditions and I'd only downshift if you were in a high enough gear (ie low enough rpm) that zero throttle produced no discernible slowing effect.
posted by Brockles at 2:38 PM on January 5, 2015
Fair enough, Brockles. Sorry I missed your existing commentary on the e-brake. I don't claim to have nearly the experience with performance driving you do -- the bulk of my wheel time is no higher than regional level Solo 1 with the SCCA -- but yeah, I think if I suspected I was having issues with brakes, rather than traction, my immediate reaction would be a downshift followed by an e-brake application as a last recourse. I'd still be personally nervous doing it on a slick surface, but I guess when you're to the point where your laundry-man is going to know how scared you were, it wouldn't hurt...
That said, I just tend to be careful giving 'last ditch' advice to inexperienced drivers, as the ones I've coached have thought that last ditch came too soon. I'd be worried about someone who thought 'if I think I'm skidding and nothing else works, yank the handle' doing so when it was merely a case of being marginally over the threshold but they didn't have the experience or calmness of thought to realize it.
Probably getting a bit far afield, though. And as I said, I think you have a lot more experience in this area than a weekend warrior like myself.
posted by jammer at 3:10 PM on January 5, 2015
That said, I just tend to be careful giving 'last ditch' advice to inexperienced drivers, as the ones I've coached have thought that last ditch came too soon. I'd be worried about someone who thought 'if I think I'm skidding and nothing else works, yank the handle' doing so when it was merely a case of being marginally over the threshold but they didn't have the experience or calmness of thought to realize it.
Probably getting a bit far afield, though. And as I said, I think you have a lot more experience in this area than a weekend warrior like myself.
posted by jammer at 3:10 PM on January 5, 2015
Best answer: My husband always insists I carry a bunch of bags of road salt in my trunk in the winter. It's extra weight in the back to help with traction, and the salt is good if I ever get stuck in a snowbank.
It means I have to put some of my groceries in the back seat, but it also means I have more stopping power.
posted by TooFewShoes at 1:43 AM on January 6, 2015
It means I have to put some of my groceries in the back seat, but it also means I have more stopping power.
posted by TooFewShoes at 1:43 AM on January 6, 2015
Response by poster: For anyone coming to this thread after the fact: I invested in snow tires based on this advice, and it has changed my life. Obviously, as per Brockles excellent advice I still leave plenty of room to brake in slippery conditions, but now... the car actually stops. So happy that Askme pointed me in the right direction!
posted by third rail at 10:21 AM on March 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by third rail at 10:21 AM on March 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
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I hate it, but I'm dealing. In snow, it helps to tap the brakes instead of solidly push down on them and as you noted it helps to drive in a lower gear (not even shifting down mid-issue, but just going at a lower gear from the get-go). I also start to brake at least three times as far away since I know I'll be tapping my way into slowing down.
Hydroplaning, I just try to drop speed until I'm no longer regularly hydroplaning and to keep the steering wheel straight and not react when I do start to hydroplane.
posted by vegartanipla at 6:55 PM on January 4, 2015