New washing machine that actually uses water?
December 24, 2014 9:31 AM Subscribe
We just got a new washing machine we want to return. It seems like almost all new washing machines use almost no water and despite the claims they don't clean well. Stains remain, hairs remain, soap doesn't get rinsed out properly, clothes dont feel or smell clean, etc.
Has anyone else gone through the process of buying a new washing machine recently that has some insight on what machines actually use water or give you control over the water or at the very least clean really well?
Are you using a High Efficiency (HE) Detergent?
posted by zinon at 9:43 AM on December 24, 2014 [7 favorites]
posted by zinon at 9:43 AM on December 24, 2014 [7 favorites]
We have a Kenmore front-loader that has an extra rinse option. It is an Energy Star model (aren't they all these days?) and does use less water, and we haven't noticed it not getting things clean. You probably will get better tips or recommendations if you tell us what brand/model you have now, and if you're not in the US, tell us that, too!
posted by rtha at 9:44 AM on December 24, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by rtha at 9:44 AM on December 24, 2014 [1 favorite]
I have a front-loading HE washer and it is huge - but I find that smaller loads get cleaner. If I really stuff it to the gills, clothes definitely do not get as clean as they could be.
posted by sutel at 9:45 AM on December 24, 2014 [3 favorites]
posted by sutel at 9:45 AM on December 24, 2014 [3 favorites]
In addition to making sure you're using HE detergent, something else to consider is that some models have an "extra rinse" mode which can help with rinsing away all the extra gunk. I have an LG front loader that does superbly with dirty kitchen rags.
on preview: @rtha
posted by scalespace at 9:46 AM on December 24, 2014
on preview: @rtha
posted by scalespace at 9:46 AM on December 24, 2014
We have a top-loading HE washer that was the winner on Consumer Reports a few years ago and it doesn’t have any of the problems you’re mentioning. It does require that you use way less detergent than you would expect—like 2 tablespoons.
There are some good recommendations on The Sweethome if you want to do some research before you pick your replacement.
posted by bcwinters at 9:48 AM on December 24, 2014 [3 favorites]
There are some good recommendations on The Sweethome if you want to do some research before you pick your replacement.
posted by bcwinters at 9:48 AM on December 24, 2014 [3 favorites]
Response by poster: We have a whirlpool top loader. It is actually highest rated in consumer reports for its category. It fills up to maybe 1/5th the tub, clothes don't really circulate and just stay on top. Hairs and particulates stay on stuff, clothes come out crunchy and stains aren't really removed. If clothes don't circulate in these washers there is no way they can get clean. Without an agitator to move the clothes around and enough water to cause friction so things actually come off I can't see how these new washers can work well. It's not the amount or type of detergent. It's the process.
posted by blueyellow at 10:00 AM on December 24, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by blueyellow at 10:00 AM on December 24, 2014 [1 favorite]
blueyellow: "It fills up to maybe 1/5th the tub"
This washer is broken, call for service.
posted by Mitheral at 10:11 AM on December 24, 2014 [26 favorites]
This washer is broken, call for service.
posted by Mitheral at 10:11 AM on December 24, 2014 [26 favorites]
We have a Bosch frontloader and it cleans very nicely while supposedly using very little water. The previous washer was a Whirlpool frontloader; it cleaned just fine but only lasted two years before developing a problem that would have cost almost as much to fix as it would to buy a new one. Whirlpool acknowledged that it was a known problem but wasn't willing to offer any fixes, so they went on my "never again" list.
posted by Dip Flash at 10:13 AM on December 24, 2014
posted by Dip Flash at 10:13 AM on December 24, 2014
Response by poster: It's not broken. That's how these new washers "work".
posted by blueyellow at 10:13 AM on December 24, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by blueyellow at 10:13 AM on December 24, 2014 [1 favorite]
I don't know which model you have, but googling Whirlpool top loaders shows a really mixed bag of reviews. People complaining that the machines don't spin out the water, or that their clothes aren't getting clean.
For CR to rate them highly, and then to see so many bad reviews from actual users online, makes me think that there's poor quality control. It sounds like a brand to avoid, in my opinion.
posted by cabingirl at 10:16 AM on December 24, 2014 [2 favorites]
For CR to rate them highly, and then to see so many bad reviews from actual users online, makes me think that there's poor quality control. It sounds like a brand to avoid, in my opinion.
posted by cabingirl at 10:16 AM on December 24, 2014 [2 favorites]
After asking a washing machine askme question I bought this Siemens iQ300 WM14E425 front loading machine a bit over a year ago. I love it. Like, I still find myself smiling and thinking about how awesome it is when I do my laundry now. It has water-saving and power-saving options which I don't use, and extra-long rinse options that I sometimes do use, and is still economical on both water and power (while still getting the clothes properly wet). But more importantly my clothes come out so clean and well spun and not-damaged.
So for a recommendation for a totally different type of machine I have no hesitations in suggesting something like mine.
It sounds like you have a top loader though? I had a fairly standard Fisher and Pykel top loader that we loved for many years and never had problems like yours, but I don't know if they've also updated to the more modern design.
posted by shelleycat at 10:16 AM on December 24, 2014 [4 favorites]
So for a recommendation for a totally different type of machine I have no hesitations in suggesting something like mine.
It sounds like you have a top loader though? I had a fairly standard Fisher and Pykel top loader that we loved for many years and never had problems like yours, but I don't know if they've also updated to the more modern design.
posted by shelleycat at 10:16 AM on December 24, 2014 [4 favorites]
From the above Sweethome link:
For most users, a front loader is the way to go as if offers better clothes washing and using much less water and electricity. Top loader washing machines used to be the king of the hill; your parents used one, and they were pretty much the only ones available. That changed in the 1980s and 1990s when the US government brought in limits on how much power and water they could use, and the manufacturers scrambled to comply with them. This meant that most of their research switched from the power-hungry and water-guzzling top loaders to the more efficient front loaders, which use less of both. They use less water because the water is more agitated inside the washing drum, and less electricity because the drum is smaller, lighter and easier to turn.
And although modern top loaders are getting better, they still struggle to match their front-loading cousins for washing performance, efficiency, and how gentle they are on clothes. The top loaders tested by Consumer Reports consistently earn lower scores.
Sounds like modern top loaders are a problem in general.
posted by ohisee at 10:18 AM on December 24, 2014 [4 favorites]
For most users, a front loader is the way to go as if offers better clothes washing and using much less water and electricity. Top loader washing machines used to be the king of the hill; your parents used one, and they were pretty much the only ones available. That changed in the 1980s and 1990s when the US government brought in limits on how much power and water they could use, and the manufacturers scrambled to comply with them. This meant that most of their research switched from the power-hungry and water-guzzling top loaders to the more efficient front loaders, which use less of both. They use less water because the water is more agitated inside the washing drum, and less electricity because the drum is smaller, lighter and easier to turn.
And although modern top loaders are getting better, they still struggle to match their front-loading cousins for washing performance, efficiency, and how gentle they are on clothes. The top loaders tested by Consumer Reports consistently earn lower scores.
Sounds like modern top loaders are a problem in general.
posted by ohisee at 10:18 AM on December 24, 2014 [4 favorites]
I think the front loaders that use little water might work better than what you describe because the clothes are constantly picked up and plopped down into the soapy water to agitate and clean. I've had a very low water front loading Kenmore for over 10 years and it does a super job.
posted by cecic at 10:19 AM on December 24, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by cecic at 10:19 AM on December 24, 2014 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: What happened is the Department of Energy put out new efficiency guidelines. So all new machines are like this now :-(. I think the guidelines are actually getting stricter in a few years. So hold on to your machines.
posted by blueyellow at 10:20 AM on December 24, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by blueyellow at 10:20 AM on December 24, 2014 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: The new front loaders are also problematic, using miniscule amounts of water. People are "hacking" their machines now to get them to use more water.
I don't trust consumer reports in that respect. I don't think the testing is dealing with these issues properly. I have a membership to their site and they don't even talk about this.
posted by blueyellow at 10:24 AM on December 24, 2014
I don't trust consumer reports in that respect. I don't think the testing is dealing with these issues properly. I have a membership to their site and they don't even talk about this.
posted by blueyellow at 10:24 AM on December 24, 2014
Response by poster: I would love to get a European Siemens. But you can't get them in the USA.
posted by blueyellow at 10:26 AM on December 24, 2014
posted by blueyellow at 10:26 AM on December 24, 2014
My front loader uses a very small amount of water and my clothes are totally clean. They are animal hair covered and smelly going in, I use perfume free detergent and need it all fully rinsed off due to allergies, and the clothes come out fully clean and wonderful at the end. So maybe European manufacturing would help?
posted by shelleycat at 10:28 AM on December 24, 2014
posted by shelleycat at 10:28 AM on December 24, 2014
(Ha! Cross posting, sorry!)
posted by shelleycat at 10:28 AM on December 24, 2014
posted by shelleycat at 10:28 AM on December 24, 2014
The title of your question is New washing machine that actually uses water.
I believe the answer to that in the United States is "no". You cannot get a new washing machine that uses a lot of water. You have several choices.
1. Buy a very old used washer that was made before the efficiency guidelines kicked in. If you find one in good condition, it may work well for you.
2. Buy a new top loader. It may not work very well, because top loaders generally require a lot of water.
3. Buy a new front loader. It will get your clothes clean, and your clothes will also last longer because the agitation isn't as likely to damage clothes.
Unfortunately, you went with #2 and so you're having problems. I would suggest #3 as the best route forward (I love front loaders), but you could also go with #1 if your goal is to use a top loader and you want your clothes to get clean.
posted by alms at 10:30 AM on December 24, 2014 [3 favorites]
I believe the answer to that in the United States is "no". You cannot get a new washing machine that uses a lot of water. You have several choices.
1. Buy a very old used washer that was made before the efficiency guidelines kicked in. If you find one in good condition, it may work well for you.
2. Buy a new top loader. It may not work very well, because top loaders generally require a lot of water.
3. Buy a new front loader. It will get your clothes clean, and your clothes will also last longer because the agitation isn't as likely to damage clothes.
Unfortunately, you went with #2 and so you're having problems. I would suggest #3 as the best route forward (I love front loaders), but you could also go with #1 if your goal is to use a top loader and you want your clothes to get clean.
posted by alms at 10:30 AM on December 24, 2014 [3 favorites]
It's not pretty, it's not fancy, and it doesn't have loads of cycles and options, but my mother purchased a commercial washing machine and loves it. It's something like this but hers is an older model. Any time I've used it, I've been impressed too. They have front-load ones too, if that's your preference, although I personally wouldn't buy one. I like a washer I can open up during the cycle to add more things/check on things.
posted by sardonyx at 10:31 AM on December 24, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by sardonyx at 10:31 AM on December 24, 2014 [1 favorite]
While it may be true that some people hack their front loaders to use more water, the vast majority of people don't do that. Everyone I know who has a front loader is happy with it. America has an increasing number of front loaders in use, and we haven't been overcome by smelly dirty clothes that our washers aren't getting clean.
posted by alms at 10:32 AM on December 24, 2014 [8 favorites]
posted by alms at 10:32 AM on December 24, 2014 [8 favorites]
Response by poster: Happy to go with a front loader. Unfortunately the guidelines seem to be affecting them too. Like I said people seem to be hacking their front loading machines so they actually use more water. If you know a decent new front loader in the USA that doesn't have water issues. I would be happy to hear about it.
posted by blueyellow at 10:32 AM on December 24, 2014
posted by blueyellow at 10:32 AM on December 24, 2014
How many gallons does yours use? The front-load Huebsch says it uses 13.9 gallons. Is that more or less than what yours uses?
posted by sardonyx at 10:37 AM on December 24, 2014
posted by sardonyx at 10:37 AM on December 24, 2014
i have a top loading HE machine bought in the last 5 months. I will fill up more than 1/5th full depending on the load. They actually check the movement of the clothing as filling to make sure they put enough water in and will vary the depth depending on how packed the clothes are. If your machine is always using the same amount of water every wash & not checking then I suspect there is something wrong with your machine. I am assuming you are using correct detergent types & amounts as well as loads. I had trouble with mine not rinsing clean, but it turned out to be a hard water problem not the machine & putting white vinegar in the fabric softer compartment fixed that for us.
If you want a new machine that uses more water you are not going to find it, unless you are willing to hack your machine. I would check Craigslist out for second hand machines, you can pick up reasonably new ones for good prices.
posted by wwax at 10:41 AM on December 24, 2014 [2 favorites]
If you want a new machine that uses more water you are not going to find it, unless you are willing to hack your machine. I would check Craigslist out for second hand machines, you can pick up reasonably new ones for good prices.
posted by wwax at 10:41 AM on December 24, 2014 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: That's more than the samsung ... they are supposed to use something like 12 gallons. But a guy measured it out to be only around 7-8.
posted by blueyellow at 10:42 AM on December 24, 2014
posted by blueyellow at 10:42 AM on December 24, 2014
I think if you go out in search of anecdotes from people who feel the need to hack their machines because they think they're working poorly, you're going to find exactly that.
I have a front-loading LG from a few years ago that gets cat hair-covered clothing perfectly clean, and when using the "sanitary" mode it's gotten mildewy towels and washcloths back to sparkling clean. A family member had a first-generation Maytag front-loader and had some problems with the seals retaining mold, but that was something endemic to early front-loaders in the US, as far as I've heard.
As far as I can tell, you're working under the assumption that less water intrinsically means less cleanliness, which isn't true in my experience. I do know that top-loading machines are few and far between, now, due to the difficulty in making one that cleans efficiently.
posted by mikeh at 10:42 AM on December 24, 2014 [13 favorites]
I have a front-loading LG from a few years ago that gets cat hair-covered clothing perfectly clean, and when using the "sanitary" mode it's gotten mildewy towels and washcloths back to sparkling clean. A family member had a first-generation Maytag front-loader and had some problems with the seals retaining mold, but that was something endemic to early front-loaders in the US, as far as I've heard.
As far as I can tell, you're working under the assumption that less water intrinsically means less cleanliness, which isn't true in my experience. I do know that top-loading machines are few and far between, now, due to the difficulty in making one that cleans efficiently.
posted by mikeh at 10:42 AM on December 24, 2014 [13 favorites]
If yours is one of the top loaders that weighs the clothes in order to determine how much water to add, toss in something heavy and waterproof while the tub is filling. A tightly-capped plastic jug of detergent will work. Just take it out before the cycle starts.
posted by corey flood at 10:45 AM on December 24, 2014 [3 favorites]
posted by corey flood at 10:45 AM on December 24, 2014 [3 favorites]
We bought a new washer/dryer in June - the cheapest ones the store had. I think they are Amana brand, and they clean our clothes just fine. Top loader washer, not necessarily the most energy efficient.
posted by Ms Vegetable at 10:49 AM on December 24, 2014
posted by Ms Vegetable at 10:49 AM on December 24, 2014
We got a GE top loader about a year maybe two ago. I think this is it or close to it. It is very basic and works great. No electronic buttons etc. and if I chose "Super" for the load size it will fill to the top. Just a data point.
posted by Busmick at 10:52 AM on December 24, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by Busmick at 10:52 AM on December 24, 2014 [1 favorite]
I would love to get a European Siemens. But you can't get them in the USA.
In North America the Bosch brand is built by Bosch/Siemens Home Appliances, a joint venture of the two companies.
I've been to their factory and their washers (and dryers and ovens and dishwashers) are pretty much built to the German specifications. The trick here will be finding a Bosch model that's equivalent to the European Siemens models that people are raving about. Euro washers tend to be smaller and undercounter.
posted by JoeZydeco at 10:52 AM on December 24, 2014 [1 favorite]
In North America the Bosch brand is built by Bosch/Siemens Home Appliances, a joint venture of the two companies.
I've been to their factory and their washers (and dryers and ovens and dishwashers) are pretty much built to the German specifications. The trick here will be finding a Bosch model that's equivalent to the European Siemens models that people are raving about. Euro washers tend to be smaller and undercounter.
posted by JoeZydeco at 10:52 AM on December 24, 2014 [1 favorite]
Mod note: Heya, blueyllow, Ask is intended more as a place to ask a question and take folks' answers as they come than as a conversation/chat/argument space; it's fine if you need to add one or two comments to clarify some specific facts related to the question, but please keep the back-and-forth to a bare minimum.
posted by cortex (staff) at 10:53 AM on December 24, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by cortex (staff) at 10:53 AM on December 24, 2014 [2 favorites]
As a matter of fact, just last week, we replaced our almost 30-year-old Kenmore with a new Kenmore HE top-loader. I had a couple of initial washes where some soap remained, necessitating an additional rinse.
Now, for all of these loads, I left the settings at default...normal wash, cold water. The only thing I activated was to opt for two rinses.
Reading through the instruction book, the multiplicity of different cycle settings is highly daunting and confusing. I mean...wtf is the operative difference between "cool lights" and "cool darks"? And, I swear, three different settings say they are for lightly soiled cottons. ?????
Anyway, I discovered that I was probably adding too much detergent for the size of the load. My rule of thumb now is "If you think it's not enough detergent, it's probably perfect"
posted by Thorzdad at 11:01 AM on December 24, 2014 [1 favorite]
Now, for all of these loads, I left the settings at default...normal wash, cold water. The only thing I activated was to opt for two rinses.
Reading through the instruction book, the multiplicity of different cycle settings is highly daunting and confusing. I mean...wtf is the operative difference between "cool lights" and "cool darks"? And, I swear, three different settings say they are for lightly soiled cottons. ?????
Anyway, I discovered that I was probably adding too much detergent for the size of the load. My rule of thumb now is "If you think it's not enough detergent, it's probably perfect"
posted by Thorzdad at 11:01 AM on December 24, 2014 [1 favorite]
So I have a question for you that comes from my own experience.
Top loaders use a rear drain line that is not (was news to me!) stoppered, rather, it fills to the same level the washer fills and then a pump pushes out the water from the drum.
When I moved a washer, I didn't bother to make sure that the drain line ran up to the height of the tub before it tied into the hard pvc drain pipe, rather, it just came up some and then ran across the wall to the pipe.
I had EXACTLY the same problem you're having, and it turned out that the water was filling but simply draining out as it filled because the level of the drain line was lower than the top fill level.
Are you totally sure that your drain line is high enough?
posted by TomMelee at 11:18 AM on December 24, 2014 [20 favorites]
Top loaders use a rear drain line that is not (was news to me!) stoppered, rather, it fills to the same level the washer fills and then a pump pushes out the water from the drum.
When I moved a washer, I didn't bother to make sure that the drain line ran up to the height of the tub before it tied into the hard pvc drain pipe, rather, it just came up some and then ran across the wall to the pipe.
I had EXACTLY the same problem you're having, and it turned out that the water was filling but simply draining out as it filled because the level of the drain line was lower than the top fill level.
Are you totally sure that your drain line is high enough?
posted by TomMelee at 11:18 AM on December 24, 2014 [20 favorites]
I have a Samsung front-loader that I bought in 2011. It uses very little water, and my clothes, which are inevitably covered in cat hair by the end of the day, come out pristinely clean.
I will repeat what others have said - there is something wrong with your washer. High-efficiency washers, which use little water, clean loads of crusty, marinara-sauce-stained, pet-hair-covered clothes every day, all across the country. People aren't having to "hack" their machines left and right in order to get clean clothes. So I would suggest getting a repair person in to look at your washer, rather than trying some kind of home hack to get your washer to use more water.
Thorzdad is right that many people use too much detergent. I use a very small amount of The Laundress - about half the recommended amount, unless I'm washing a very large load of bedding - and my clothes come out clean. Don't use those detergent pods; I find that they leave a film in the washer drum which means that the clothes never rinse clean. And I love the extra rinse cycle for getting every last bit of soap out.
I reiterate - your washer is defective. It isn't because it uses too little water - your washer is defective and needs to be fixed or replaced.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 11:26 AM on December 24, 2014 [17 favorites]
I will repeat what others have said - there is something wrong with your washer. High-efficiency washers, which use little water, clean loads of crusty, marinara-sauce-stained, pet-hair-covered clothes every day, all across the country. People aren't having to "hack" their machines left and right in order to get clean clothes. So I would suggest getting a repair person in to look at your washer, rather than trying some kind of home hack to get your washer to use more water.
Thorzdad is right that many people use too much detergent. I use a very small amount of The Laundress - about half the recommended amount, unless I'm washing a very large load of bedding - and my clothes come out clean. Don't use those detergent pods; I find that they leave a film in the washer drum which means that the clothes never rinse clean. And I love the extra rinse cycle for getting every last bit of soap out.
I reiterate - your washer is defective. It isn't because it uses too little water - your washer is defective and needs to be fixed or replaced.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 11:26 AM on December 24, 2014 [17 favorites]
I was going to recommend to you my front loader which I LOVE!! but it sounds like you really want something with more water-usage. So my suggestion is to buy an old top-loader. At my other place, we have one that has lasted 10+ years. It uses tons of water and I bet you could find a working one cheap or free as people switch them out for the new hi-efficiency ones.
posted by Toddles at 11:30 AM on December 24, 2014
posted by Toddles at 11:30 AM on December 24, 2014
Another front-loader owner (LG dual washer/dryer), and it cleans our clothes fine. It does make sense to me that a top-loader would not be as good in a HE model- with less water, the spin of the drum is not going to easily circulate clothes on the top down to the bottom where the water is. Front-loaders are better designed to circulate your clothes this way.
posted by mkultra at 11:45 AM on December 24, 2014
posted by mkultra at 11:45 AM on December 24, 2014
After many months of talking to many people about their experiences, we got a new Speed Queen top-loading washer from a local dealer (who could also provide repair service if needed) and I like it very much. Built well and gets the clothes clean. Works the same as the old-fashioned top-loaders; not HE, you would want to see if the water usage is acceptable to you. One thing I like about ours is the manual control knobs; I have heard that those are being phased out soon (in favor of electronic controls), not sure how that will affect the operation.
posted by hsieu at 12:01 PM on December 24, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by hsieu at 12:01 PM on December 24, 2014 [2 favorites]
I have no recent experience with washer buying as my current washer is a 15 year old Maytag light commercial unit I bought from a local Maytag store. This one looks similar to the residential models of the time, but had a higher capacity and quiet motor. They did not sell these at the big box stores, but the price at the time was comparable to the higher end residential units that were "prettier" but did not have the capacity or quality of this one.
If this one ever dies, my first stop would be back to the Maytag store to see what was comparable. It does not look like they have one in New Brunswick, but Derby Appliances looks like they may carry some of the Maytag commercial products. I do not know if the commercial units have the same water restrictions as the residential ones or if the prices are still comparable. An actual appliance store like this that does repairs themselves would probably be able to answer questions like yours for water usage, etc for other makers as well.
I would have to agree with others that the front load design is better to deal with the new high efficiency concepts (less water, no agitator) than the top load.
posted by Yorrick at 12:01 PM on December 24, 2014 [2 favorites]
If this one ever dies, my first stop would be back to the Maytag store to see what was comparable. It does not look like they have one in New Brunswick, but Derby Appliances looks like they may carry some of the Maytag commercial products. I do not know if the commercial units have the same water restrictions as the residential ones or if the prices are still comparable. An actual appliance store like this that does repairs themselves would probably be able to answer questions like yours for water usage, etc for other makers as well.
I would have to agree with others that the front load design is better to deal with the new high efficiency concepts (less water, no agitator) than the top load.
posted by Yorrick at 12:01 PM on December 24, 2014 [2 favorites]
most of the people you see in your day-to-day life are using one of the new HE machines. Even laundromats are using them. They get clothes clean just fine when working properly.
Seriously. We've been using HE washing machines (front loaders, three different makes/models) for over ten years. They get our clothes at least as clean as any machines we've used before. You seem convinced that it's a given that:
1. No current washing machine uses enough water, and
2. Your clothes can't get clean if the machine doesn't use a lot of water.
I think at least one of these assumptions, if not both, is incorrect. There may be reasons that your clothes aren't getting clean aside from the amount of water the machine is using. And it's demonstrably false that current machines don't use enough water to get clothes clean, because I (and many, many other people) get their clothes perfectly clean with current washing machines.
Either something is wrong with your machine, or you're using it wrong.
posted by primethyme at 12:03 PM on December 24, 2014 [12 favorites]
Seriously. We've been using HE washing machines (front loaders, three different makes/models) for over ten years. They get our clothes at least as clean as any machines we've used before. You seem convinced that it's a given that:
1. No current washing machine uses enough water, and
2. Your clothes can't get clean if the machine doesn't use a lot of water.
I think at least one of these assumptions, if not both, is incorrect. There may be reasons that your clothes aren't getting clean aside from the amount of water the machine is using. And it's demonstrably false that current machines don't use enough water to get clothes clean, because I (and many, many other people) get their clothes perfectly clean with current washing machines.
Either something is wrong with your machine, or you're using it wrong.
posted by primethyme at 12:03 PM on December 24, 2014 [12 favorites]
Best answer: I am pretty sure—and maybe this varies by state, so it may not be applicable if you live in a state with very rigid environmental or water-conservation laws—that you can still buy non-HE washers. I wasn't looking at them specifically, but I saw a bunch at Home Depot the other day that looked like very generic top-loading washers of the sort that have been made for decades. They didn't advertise anything "HE".
I'm pretty sure this is one of them. No automatic load-sensing crap, just a rotary load-size selector. In fact, the specifications section says specifically "Energy Efficiency Tier Rating: Not CEE rated" and "High Efficiency Washer: No".
They have a few other models like that for sale (you can actually search for "High Efficiency"=No, which leads me to believe you are not the only person who thinks it's a misfeature), but the key seems to basically be to not buy some fancy one. Get one that has roughly the brains of a kitchen timer and you'll do okay.
You may need to drive your nearest red state to buy one, I guess, depending on state laws, although when I repeated the same search in New Jersey and California I was still able to find some non-HE machines. I'm not sure if the "non-HE washers are illegal" is a sort of urban legend ("Obama wants you to wear dirty clothes!") or if there's some loophole the manufacturers are using, but you can pretty clearly not buy one if you don't want to.
posted by Kadin2048 at 12:04 PM on December 24, 2014 [3 favorites]
I'm pretty sure this is one of them. No automatic load-sensing crap, just a rotary load-size selector. In fact, the specifications section says specifically "Energy Efficiency Tier Rating: Not CEE rated" and "High Efficiency Washer: No".
They have a few other models like that for sale (you can actually search for "High Efficiency"=No, which leads me to believe you are not the only person who thinks it's a misfeature), but the key seems to basically be to not buy some fancy one. Get one that has roughly the brains of a kitchen timer and you'll do okay.
You may need to drive your nearest red state to buy one, I guess, depending on state laws, although when I repeated the same search in New Jersey and California I was still able to find some non-HE machines. I'm not sure if the "non-HE washers are illegal" is a sort of urban legend ("Obama wants you to wear dirty clothes!") or if there's some loophole the manufacturers are using, but you can pretty clearly not buy one if you don't want to.
posted by Kadin2048 at 12:04 PM on December 24, 2014 [3 favorites]
I would also add, though, that when I did some research a while back into washers, because the current one seemed to be on its last legs, I'd concur that Speed Queen non-HE top-loading machines are definitely the head-and-shoulders winner. (Miele front loaders are also beloved by their owners, including at one point Steve Jobs, but they no longer sell the really good ones in the US for some ridiculous reason, and as a result they command stupendous prices.)
Speed Queen machines are pretty expensive, but if you're not averse to moving them from place to place like good furniture in the future they seem like a pretty good investment. They are used in laundromats, so spare parts availability is good. I found a place locally that sells rebuilt ones that are a fairly good deal; you might want to check around if you are in the market. SQ front-loaders are good stuff too, but the majority of the ones you find around have to be bolted down or they'll walk away (they are "hard mount" machines).
The threat of being sent to the scrapyard to become cat-food cans was apparently enough to bring the current washer back to life, though, so I haven't actually had to go through with buying the Speed Queen.
posted by Kadin2048 at 12:18 PM on December 24, 2014 [3 favorites]
Speed Queen machines are pretty expensive, but if you're not averse to moving them from place to place like good furniture in the future they seem like a pretty good investment. They are used in laundromats, so spare parts availability is good. I found a place locally that sells rebuilt ones that are a fairly good deal; you might want to check around if you are in the market. SQ front-loaders are good stuff too, but the majority of the ones you find around have to be bolted down or they'll walk away (they are "hard mount" machines).
The threat of being sent to the scrapyard to become cat-food cans was apparently enough to bring the current washer back to life, though, so I haven't actually had to go through with buying the Speed Queen.
posted by Kadin2048 at 12:18 PM on December 24, 2014 [3 favorites]
Either something is wrong with your machine, or you're using it wrong.
For real. My parents own four dogs, three cats, and seven horses, and they use a cheap Kenmore front load HE washer to wash everything not made of leather. It gets their clothes clean. It gets my clothes clean when I visit. HE washers work fine when in good working order and used correctly.
posted by Sternmeyer at 12:29 PM on December 24, 2014 [5 favorites]
For real. My parents own four dogs, three cats, and seven horses, and they use a cheap Kenmore front load HE washer to wash everything not made of leather. It gets their clothes clean. It gets my clothes clean when I visit. HE washers work fine when in good working order and used correctly.
posted by Sternmeyer at 12:29 PM on December 24, 2014 [5 favorites]
I have a Maytag Bravos and I miss the water-hogging washer I used to have. The clothes in my household aren't very dirty so I can make it work. If you do end up with a water-saving machine, I have some suggestions to make things better.
Since so little water enters, it's often not warm enough. Before starting the machine, run the water at a nearby faucet to let it heat up.
Use very little detergent -- see how little you can get away with. For most loads, I fill the cup to "line one." When I have to use more detergent for things like smelly kitchen towels and dish rags, I have to use the water-heating feature of the washer, and I like to do a second rinse. If I'm using bleach, it's 1/4 of a cup at most.
Pre-treat stains that might be stubborn. Zout is a great spray for this.
If you want a higher water level, select the cycle for bulky items if you have that. The tub fills up to about 2/3 in my washer if I use that.
posted by wryly at 12:39 PM on December 24, 2014 [3 favorites]
Since so little water enters, it's often not warm enough. Before starting the machine, run the water at a nearby faucet to let it heat up.
Use very little detergent -- see how little you can get away with. For most loads, I fill the cup to "line one." When I have to use more detergent for things like smelly kitchen towels and dish rags, I have to use the water-heating feature of the washer, and I like to do a second rinse. If I'm using bleach, it's 1/4 of a cup at most.
Pre-treat stains that might be stubborn. Zout is a great spray for this.
If you want a higher water level, select the cycle for bulky items if you have that. The tub fills up to about 2/3 in my washer if I use that.
posted by wryly at 12:39 PM on December 24, 2014 [3 favorites]
We have a new Miele front loader, and it cleans amazingly well (Its a European model). Front loaders are meant to only be about half filled or a little more: it needs the extra room to agitate the wash properly. Use only a little detergent (we use about a tablespoon), pay attention to load amounts, and a front loader can be your friend.
My old place had a top loader: it was about 2 years old, but would fill to about 3/4 full, no problem. Don't know if it was just magic. But even with all of that water, it wasn't great, as it had a crappy drainage system and didn't do rinses well. This was a settings issue, not a water amount issue. I just love front loaders, and will be sticking with them. But it does take a different way of washing.
I agree with primethyme: current washer settings are capable of getting clothes clean.
posted by troytroy at 1:12 PM on December 24, 2014 [2 favorites]
My old place had a top loader: it was about 2 years old, but would fill to about 3/4 full, no problem. Don't know if it was just magic. But even with all of that water, it wasn't great, as it had a crappy drainage system and didn't do rinses well. This was a settings issue, not a water amount issue. I just love front loaders, and will be sticking with them. But it does take a different way of washing.
I agree with primethyme: current washer settings are capable of getting clothes clean.
posted by troytroy at 1:12 PM on December 24, 2014 [2 favorites]
Another vote for broken or incorrect use. My whirlpool front-loader only uses enough water to get the clothes wet - it doesn't "fill up".
posted by ArgentCorvid at 2:39 PM on December 24, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by ArgentCorvid at 2:39 PM on December 24, 2014 [1 favorite]
Well, let me chime in as I am definitely not happy with my THIRD high efficiency washer (all different brands), and yes I am using them correctly.
My clothes and towels are either ruined or they reek. Some smell like mildew, some like BO or piss, some like sour milk. My towels smell like butt and they are frayed as hell - just thrashed.
I have a top loader - no rubber seal, so that's not the problem. I use 1-2 tablespoons of HE detergent. I use the "refresh" tablets regularly and also sometimes run a heavy duty load of just bleach.
So here's how I've modified my life/laundry. Maybe it will help you.
1. I replaced almost all of my towels. I bought the cheapest, thinnest, white towels I could. I always bleach them (never used to need to do this). That seems to work. Less smell, and frankly I just throw them away when they start to get an odor that I can't remove.
2. I hand wash most of my work clothes, and all my undies (not just bras, that's a given). I can't afford to have them ruined. These aren't dry clean only clothes, they are regular clothes. I machine wash jeans, sweats, socks, and workout clothes.
3. I wash and dry everything on the hottest settings possible (while this might not be great for clothes, it's NO WORSE than when I was using more moderate or gentle settings).
4. I wash EVERYTHING on the bulky setting. This uses the most water; almost a full tub. Depending on what I'm washing, I may also change the wash setting to heavy duty, fast agitation, etc. Again, those are harsh settings but my clothes are not any worse than they were before; they were already being ruined.
I think HE sucks. I am really surprised to read about all the fans here. I routinely found - with all three washers! - huge dry patches on most of the items that came straight out of the washer. I was putting fewer and fewer items in to the point of absurdity - 5 pairs of children's jeans, for example, very loosely and gently placed evenly around the cylinder. And they came out with patches untouched by water. That's bullshit. Hope some of this is helpful.
posted by peep at 2:55 PM on December 24, 2014 [1 favorite]
My clothes and towels are either ruined or they reek. Some smell like mildew, some like BO or piss, some like sour milk. My towels smell like butt and they are frayed as hell - just thrashed.
I have a top loader - no rubber seal, so that's not the problem. I use 1-2 tablespoons of HE detergent. I use the "refresh" tablets regularly and also sometimes run a heavy duty load of just bleach.
So here's how I've modified my life/laundry. Maybe it will help you.
1. I replaced almost all of my towels. I bought the cheapest, thinnest, white towels I could. I always bleach them (never used to need to do this). That seems to work. Less smell, and frankly I just throw them away when they start to get an odor that I can't remove.
2. I hand wash most of my work clothes, and all my undies (not just bras, that's a given). I can't afford to have them ruined. These aren't dry clean only clothes, they are regular clothes. I machine wash jeans, sweats, socks, and workout clothes.
3. I wash and dry everything on the hottest settings possible (while this might not be great for clothes, it's NO WORSE than when I was using more moderate or gentle settings).
4. I wash EVERYTHING on the bulky setting. This uses the most water; almost a full tub. Depending on what I'm washing, I may also change the wash setting to heavy duty, fast agitation, etc. Again, those are harsh settings but my clothes are not any worse than they were before; they were already being ruined.
I think HE sucks. I am really surprised to read about all the fans here. I routinely found - with all three washers! - huge dry patches on most of the items that came straight out of the washer. I was putting fewer and fewer items in to the point of absurdity - 5 pairs of children's jeans, for example, very loosely and gently placed evenly around the cylinder. And they came out with patches untouched by water. That's bullshit. Hope some of this is helpful.
posted by peep at 2:55 PM on December 24, 2014 [1 favorite]
My GE quiet washer broke recently, and my local repairman/Guru told me that it wasn't worth it to fix. He said that he had bought his wife a used Whirlpool with direct drive (top loader). And he recommended a local used appliance store.
Not wanting to pay a ton of money, we went there and I got a Whirlpool Estate, for about $200. Plus delivery and taking away my old washer. It is a top loader, with an agitator. Dial settings for hot or warm or cold and how long it takes. I am guessing it uses more water than the other washers people are recommending. It has a 6 month warrantee, which I am cool with, given its price.
So far it works fine. I don't feel bad, as I don't do a ton of laundry. Clothes, towels, blankets here and there, but not every day. It has settings for low, medium and high. I am not sure why you need a new washer if you are angry at them. There are plenty of the old school washers around. I am quite happy with this washer.
posted by Marie Mon Dieu at 4:58 PM on December 24, 2014
Not wanting to pay a ton of money, we went there and I got a Whirlpool Estate, for about $200. Plus delivery and taking away my old washer. It is a top loader, with an agitator. Dial settings for hot or warm or cold and how long it takes. I am guessing it uses more water than the other washers people are recommending. It has a 6 month warrantee, which I am cool with, given its price.
So far it works fine. I don't feel bad, as I don't do a ton of laundry. Clothes, towels, blankets here and there, but not every day. It has settings for low, medium and high. I am not sure why you need a new washer if you are angry at them. There are plenty of the old school washers around. I am quite happy with this washer.
posted by Marie Mon Dieu at 4:58 PM on December 24, 2014
If you do end up getting a front loader, be absolutely sure you aren't using too much detergent. If you see a bunch of suds, it's too much. The suds prevent the clothes from getting clean because they keep the clothes from hitting the bottom of the drum, which is what gets them clean. (The fibers flex when this happens, allowing the dirt to be flushed away)
My front loader fills so little water that it isn't even visible in the bottom of the drum, yet the clothes come out clean and free of the mass of pet hair they went in with. The drum has internal baffles that scoop up the water and rain it down from above, keeping the clothes wet and ensuring a flow of water to wash away the dirt.
It's a Frigidaire Gallery series (one of the many brands made by Electrolux), if that helps.
posted by wierdo at 7:31 PM on December 24, 2014 [1 favorite]
My front loader fills so little water that it isn't even visible in the bottom of the drum, yet the clothes come out clean and free of the mass of pet hair they went in with. The drum has internal baffles that scoop up the water and rain it down from above, keeping the clothes wet and ensuring a flow of water to wash away the dirt.
It's a Frigidaire Gallery series (one of the many brands made by Electrolux), if that helps.
posted by wierdo at 7:31 PM on December 24, 2014 [1 favorite]
LG front loader, 2 years old. Piece of shit. Works great if the drum's half full, but one of the selling points was supposed to be the fact that you could actually load the drum. So I get the load started, fill up a 5 gallon bucket with water, and pour it into the detergent drawer once the load sensing part is done.
posted by disconnect at 8:16 PM on December 24, 2014
posted by disconnect at 8:16 PM on December 24, 2014
Oh, and even running it on default settings with the drum less than half filled I have the same experience as peep. Funky smells, clothes not getting clean, really goddamn irritating.
posted by disconnect at 8:20 PM on December 24, 2014
posted by disconnect at 8:20 PM on December 24, 2014
When we were recently in the market for a replacement washing machine, we were told by the salesperson that HE machines didn't work for farmers and other folks that tend to have heavily soiled clothes, and that they usually ended up buying a Speed Queen.
posted by zamboni at 9:15 PM on December 24, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by zamboni at 9:15 PM on December 24, 2014 [1 favorite]
> If you know a decent new front loader in the USA that doesn't have water issues. I would be happy to hear about it.
My Kenmore is three years old, is a front loader, gets all my clothes clean, and I don't know what hacking a washing machine would involve. I believe it's a model #40272. I had to have a repair guy come by once or twice when it was new; I recommend getting the service plan. We have two kids and two cats, we're outdoorsy, and Mr. Corpse is a runner, so our clothes get filthy. It isn't a problem.
posted by The corpse in the library at 9:16 PM on December 24, 2014
My Kenmore is three years old, is a front loader, gets all my clothes clean, and I don't know what hacking a washing machine would involve. I believe it's a model #40272. I had to have a repair guy come by once or twice when it was new; I recommend getting the service plan. We have two kids and two cats, we're outdoorsy, and Mr. Corpse is a runner, so our clothes get filthy. It isn't a problem.
posted by The corpse in the library at 9:16 PM on December 24, 2014
Multiple washers, different brands, in different places: all the HE washers I've had have been kind of shit. One started pumping so much water it actually overflowed into the floor. Computer problem. "You want a new one," according to the repair man. Maytag. Next was a Frigidaire Affinity. Tops on CR. Never felt it for my clothes clean, and everything seemed to fade in a few washes. Next is a Samsung. This thing has eaten a sock, requiring surgery; and the rubber seal has molded (a result of leaving it closed by accident once). I get around it with hot water, bleach, and smelly laundry products to avoid the smell of the literally irreparable seal. (Two separate repairmen have told me the seal cannot be removed. Joy!)
HE is pretty shit.
posted by sonic meat machine at 11:01 PM on December 24, 2014
HE is pretty shit.
posted by sonic meat machine at 11:01 PM on December 24, 2014
We have a cheap HE front-loader in our dual-national household, because old-school American top-loaders are pretty primitive and the agitators are fairly aggressive towards modern fabrics, while newer top-loaders appear to be piss-poor imitations of those inefficient old beasts. It's been fine: had we paid a bit more, we'd have got a higher final spin, but that's manageable.
It's a tricky question because the sense of "clean" is tied to what you grow up with, which for many Americans is something big and industrial that uses a lake's worth of water to leave clothes smelling of Tide and Downy. If you want that these days, you might need to go to the laundromat.
posted by holgate at 3:52 AM on December 25, 2014
It's a tricky question because the sense of "clean" is tied to what you grow up with, which for many Americans is something big and industrial that uses a lake's worth of water to leave clothes smelling of Tide and Downy. If you want that these days, you might need to go to the laundromat.
posted by holgate at 3:52 AM on December 25, 2014
It fills up to maybe 1/5th the tub, clothes don't really circulate and just stay on top.
Faulty pressure switch. Get that repaired under warranty.
posted by flabdablet at 4:25 AM on December 25, 2014 [2 favorites]
Faulty pressure switch. Get that repaired under warranty.
posted by flabdablet at 4:25 AM on December 25, 2014 [2 favorites]
I have a front-loading HE washer and it is huge ... If I really stuff it to the gills, clothes definitely do not get as clean as they could be.
Front loading washers force soiling out of fabric the same way as this ancient method; the clothes need to be lifted up one side of the drum and then dropped with a splat. If the drum is more than half full, that can't happen and they don't work properly.
posted by flabdablet at 4:36 AM on December 25, 2014
Front loading washers force soiling out of fabric the same way as this ancient method; the clothes need to be lifted up one side of the drum and then dropped with a splat. If the drum is more than half full, that can't happen and they don't work properly.
posted by flabdablet at 4:36 AM on December 25, 2014
The Sears repair guy told me to load the washer up, and showed me what a load should look like (terrifyingly full), because it cleans by the clothes rubbing together.
Using the right detergent is key. I find liquid detergent is terrible (and liquid Tide is disgusting); lately I've been using 1 - 2 Tbs of Persil powder and I'm happy with the results.
posted by The corpse in the library at 7:07 AM on December 25, 2014
Using the right detergent is key. I find liquid detergent is terrible (and liquid Tide is disgusting); lately I've been using 1 - 2 Tbs of Persil powder and I'm happy with the results.
posted by The corpse in the library at 7:07 AM on December 25, 2014
We owned one of the first HE top loaders and it was AWFUL.
I've owned several mid-range, front loader, whirlpool duets and they work great.
- You have to use HE detergent. Powdered, if possible.
- You MUST leave the doors open whenever they are not in use.
- You have to run a bleach cleaning cycle once a month.
My boys' muddy camping clothes and stinky gym clothes and nasty towels they leave on the floor till they are funky all get nice and clean...
posted by LittleMy at 9:19 AM on December 25, 2014
I've owned several mid-range, front loader, whirlpool duets and they work great.
- You have to use HE detergent. Powdered, if possible.
- You MUST leave the doors open whenever they are not in use.
- You have to run a bleach cleaning cycle once a month.
My boys' muddy camping clothes and stinky gym clothes and nasty towels they leave on the floor till they are funky all get nice and clean...
posted by LittleMy at 9:19 AM on December 25, 2014
Random anecdote, but my friends dad(who is a bit of a conspiracy nut in many categories) flat out refused to buy anything but used ones of the apartment building-type "commercial" washers and dryers. He was convinced they broke less(which is probably true, they're made to run essentially non stop) and that they got stuff cleaner since you're putting a normal sized load in a larger drum with more water, etc.
He got a bosch set from a friend who moved in to a house that came with them and "upgraded", and the dryer almost instantly kerploded(i seriously don't remember if it ran correctly for an entire month). The washer is making upsetting noises now, and already ate a door seal and some other parts. He also had to have an electrician install a weird high amp 120v socket, and a small 220v socket that i had seen before but is unusual.
As far as i know, he really misses his old commercial w/d set.
They are something that are out there and available, and they aren't always worn out or busted when they're put up for sale. Not all apartment complexes lease them, big property management companies gobble up apartment buildings owned by random grandmas, places upgrade to more machines and just uniformly buy all new ones, etc. They seem to pop up on craigslist fairly often.
posted by emptythought at 8:04 PM on December 26, 2014
He got a bosch set from a friend who moved in to a house that came with them and "upgraded", and the dryer almost instantly kerploded(i seriously don't remember if it ran correctly for an entire month). The washer is making upsetting noises now, and already ate a door seal and some other parts. He also had to have an electrician install a weird high amp 120v socket, and a small 220v socket that i had seen before but is unusual.
As far as i know, he really misses his old commercial w/d set.
They are something that are out there and available, and they aren't always worn out or busted when they're put up for sale. Not all apartment complexes lease them, big property management companies gobble up apartment buildings owned by random grandmas, places upgrade to more machines and just uniformly buy all new ones, etc. They seem to pop up on craigslist fairly often.
posted by emptythought at 8:04 PM on December 26, 2014
This thread is closed to new comments.
Can you link to the model you currently have?
posted by Klaxon Aoooogah at 9:39 AM on December 24, 2014 [5 favorites]