PhD programs in Cognitive Science, late bloomer.
November 30, 2014 7:04 PM Subscribe
Thinking about applying to PhD programs in cognitive science after 4 years of tech job experience with no research experience. What do you say?
I am an international (white) student and graduated from Carnegie Mellon with a degree in Cognitive Science and Human-Computer Interaction in 2010. My GPA was around 3.55. Since graduating, I have been working in tech companies in the San Francisco, Bay Area as a software engineer I'm currently 28 years old (went to international prep schools which set me a couple years back).
I am very interested in going back to grad school, doing a PhD in Cognitive Science. My desired focus is information processing and possibly retrieval.
However, my biggest question / problem is that I have virtually no research experience in the area, this is something I missed out in college. I also wonder some of the Cs in my transcript are in the area I want to study. (No explanation other then personal irresponsibility).
The age issue is also a problem; the earliest I can apply is next year which would put at 30 years old when I happen to start.
In that sense, I am open to any suggestions, comments, concerns you guys have. Specifically, I'd appreciate some next step recommendations (how to get research experience?), school recommendations (the rankings are useful but I want to be realistic), and any other general feedback.
Thanks a lot everyone, I'll be looking forward to all your answers.
I am an international (white) student and graduated from Carnegie Mellon with a degree in Cognitive Science and Human-Computer Interaction in 2010. My GPA was around 3.55. Since graduating, I have been working in tech companies in the San Francisco, Bay Area as a software engineer I'm currently 28 years old (went to international prep schools which set me a couple years back).
I am very interested in going back to grad school, doing a PhD in Cognitive Science. My desired focus is information processing and possibly retrieval.
However, my biggest question / problem is that I have virtually no research experience in the area, this is something I missed out in college. I also wonder some of the Cs in my transcript are in the area I want to study. (No explanation other then personal irresponsibility).
The age issue is also a problem; the earliest I can apply is next year which would put at 30 years old when I happen to start.
In that sense, I am open to any suggestions, comments, concerns you guys have. Specifically, I'd appreciate some next step recommendations (how to get research experience?), school recommendations (the rankings are useful but I want to be realistic), and any other general feedback.
Thanks a lot everyone, I'll be looking forward to all your answers.
I agree with the above advice regarding research and playing up your current strengths, and suggest maybe also taking some nondegree courses in relevant subjects and getting As in them if possible so you can maybe offset some of the Cs on your transcript, and also have some extra recommendation possibilities if necessary. Good luck!
posted by hejrat at 8:18 PM on November 30, 2014
posted by hejrat at 8:18 PM on November 30, 2014
Lack of research experience will be the biggest barrier for you. Some grad schools may ask you to do a master's program before you're accepted as a PhD student. (This happened to a couple of my colleagues who wanted to enter a PhD program in a similar field, but this was at a top-tier university and I'm not sure how it's handled at other places.)
At the very least, I'd recommend the same as en forme de poire: try to get work in a lab, even as a volunteer. Your skills as a software engineer will be extremely attractive -- many labs have to write their own data acquisition and/or analysis scripts, and a lot of biology-oriented people have sub-par programming skills, so you could really step in here and do some good work. If you end up with a couple shining letters of recommendation, this will matter far more to an admissions committee than having a couple C's on your transcript.
posted by phoenix_rising at 8:31 PM on November 30, 2014 [5 favorites]
At the very least, I'd recommend the same as en forme de poire: try to get work in a lab, even as a volunteer. Your skills as a software engineer will be extremely attractive -- many labs have to write their own data acquisition and/or analysis scripts, and a lot of biology-oriented people have sub-par programming skills, so you could really step in here and do some good work. If you end up with a couple shining letters of recommendation, this will matter far more to an admissions committee than having a couple C's on your transcript.
posted by phoenix_rising at 8:31 PM on November 30, 2014 [5 favorites]
The age issue is also a problem; the earliest I can apply is next year which would put at 30 years old when I happen to start.
Just to address this concern: increasingly, serious students are of all ages, styles, backgrounds, physical ability, etc., and are appreciated specifically as serious and motivated students. At my son's graduation ceremony, which included undergraduate and graduate degree conferral, there was notably a 71-year-old gentleman receiving his doctorate, cheered on by his 5 grandchildren. He was achieving his lifelong desire, and it was a beautiful thing. Do not let your age be any factor at all in making your plans.
posted by RRgal at 8:39 PM on November 30, 2014 [2 favorites]
Just to address this concern: increasingly, serious students are of all ages, styles, backgrounds, physical ability, etc., and are appreciated specifically as serious and motivated students. At my son's graduation ceremony, which included undergraduate and graduate degree conferral, there was notably a 71-year-old gentleman receiving his doctorate, cheered on by his 5 grandchildren. He was achieving his lifelong desire, and it was a beautiful thing. Do not let your age be any factor at all in making your plans.
posted by RRgal at 8:39 PM on November 30, 2014 [2 favorites]
Best answer: As someone who entered and dropped out of a cog sci PhD with an undergrad GPA and pedigree approximating yours or a little less, I can tell you what got me in was 2 years full time research experience. This pays a tiny fraction of what software engineering pays, unfortunately. If I were you, I would strongly consider trying to get into a lab about 20-30 hours a week for at least 12 months, (under)paid or unpaid, if you can fill the remaining work hours in your week with enough freelance or contract engineering work to cover the high cost of living you're probably facing in the Bay.
This assumes you have a good reason for wanting to do the PhD and you will get in somewhere fully funded. I think given your background, if you complete the PhD and manage to keep your industry contacts fresh in grad school with internships or collaborations or side jobs, the degree might pay off in terms of being able to move into a high level tech position after. Is that what you intend? My former classmates are now working at Apple and Facebook, and they weren't engineers before. But ask yourself carefully what options that gives you vs. staying in engineering and getting more on the job experience to branch out and move up. 4-6 years of grad school is alot of lost wages at engineering rates.
posted by slow graffiti at 8:58 PM on November 30, 2014 [2 favorites]
This assumes you have a good reason for wanting to do the PhD and you will get in somewhere fully funded. I think given your background, if you complete the PhD and manage to keep your industry contacts fresh in grad school with internships or collaborations or side jobs, the degree might pay off in terms of being able to move into a high level tech position after. Is that what you intend? My former classmates are now working at Apple and Facebook, and they weren't engineers before. But ask yourself carefully what options that gives you vs. staying in engineering and getting more on the job experience to branch out and move up. 4-6 years of grad school is alot of lost wages at engineering rates.
posted by slow graffiti at 8:58 PM on November 30, 2014 [2 favorites]
I am a 31 year old who just now (literally! two hours ago!) hit "submit application" on PhD apps for research programs. I think your GPA won't be a barrier, but your lack of research experience will. phoenix_rising makes excellent points about where to look for research experience, and getting at least one glowing research-related reference letter is critical. hejrat's suggestion of nondegree courses also echoes an approach I took; I've been knocking some tough online courses out of the park through Coursera, and at the very least, they won't hurt my application.
Since you're only four years out of undergrad and your major seems reasonably closely related to the field you want to study, are there any old professors you had a good relationship you could contact to see if they have colleagues on the west coast who might be able to put you to good use?
posted by deludingmyself at 8:59 PM on November 30, 2014
Since you're only four years out of undergrad and your major seems reasonably closely related to the field you want to study, are there any old professors you had a good relationship you could contact to see if they have colleagues on the west coast who might be able to put you to good use?
posted by deludingmyself at 8:59 PM on November 30, 2014
Best answer: I would bet a pretty sizable number cognitive science PhDs and professors are either working for or directly collaborating with companies in the bay area. Likewise I bet there are software engineers who may not have PhDs in the field, but who are applying academic research in practice. I would suggest aiming to meet these people and talk to them. You could even try to angle your career in such a way as to work with such people in the future. And then you could skip the PhD and save yourself 6 years of pain for a similar end result. (I'm not really kidding.)
At the very least, take advantage of your surroundings and your network. In many areas tech firms are leapfrogging ahead of academia due to the scale of the systems, data, and resources they work with. Try to find the people in your industry who do this stuff for a living and ask them what's going on. Even better, if you can get on the inside of this stuff and actually do it for a while, then you could know exactly what problems exist in the field and which ones are coming down the pipe, and you could go into your PhD with a GOAL. Do you know how many grad students have no idea why they are there? Most of them. It is infinitely easier to do research when you are directly plugged into the practical applications.
Seriously, think about your goals. A PhD program is not a goal in and of itself -- it's a way to get to your goal. But many PhDs end up working in the valley after the abysmal academic job market spits them out, and you're already in the valley. If the goal is to boost your career, enhance your network, and let you crack into a higher tier of jobs, a Master's could be a better bet, especially since you're starting from scratch when it comes to research.
posted by PercussivePaul at 9:12 PM on November 30, 2014 [6 favorites]
At the very least, take advantage of your surroundings and your network. In many areas tech firms are leapfrogging ahead of academia due to the scale of the systems, data, and resources they work with. Try to find the people in your industry who do this stuff for a living and ask them what's going on. Even better, if you can get on the inside of this stuff and actually do it for a while, then you could know exactly what problems exist in the field and which ones are coming down the pipe, and you could go into your PhD with a GOAL. Do you know how many grad students have no idea why they are there? Most of them. It is infinitely easier to do research when you are directly plugged into the practical applications.
Seriously, think about your goals. A PhD program is not a goal in and of itself -- it's a way to get to your goal. But many PhDs end up working in the valley after the abysmal academic job market spits them out, and you're already in the valley. If the goal is to boost your career, enhance your network, and let you crack into a higher tier of jobs, a Master's could be a better bet, especially since you're starting from scratch when it comes to research.
posted by PercussivePaul at 9:12 PM on November 30, 2014 [6 favorites]
Best answer: Nthing that you'll want research experience before applying to grad school (age won't matter a whit). The research experience is not only to build your application, but to help you figure out whether you actually want to spend another 4-6 years doing research with a massive pay cut. You might end up loathing doing research (and that's okay!) so it's better to find out now rather than later. So absolutely volunteer some time in a lab! Basically google around to find some nearby universities' listings of psychology / cognitive science faculty. Find some who do research that aligns with your interests, check their lab websites or google scholar their name to see that they've published research articles in the last few years, then email them.
If you memail me I can give you more specific advice based on your interests.
posted by nicodine at 9:12 PM on November 30, 2014 [3 favorites]
If you memail me I can give you more specific advice based on your interests.
posted by nicodine at 9:12 PM on November 30, 2014 [3 favorites]
Yeah, my big question is "why?" If it's not to be a professor, stop and really think about whether it's worth the opportunity cost: your current salary minus the low stipend times 5-6 years. I bet it isn't.
Also willing to give you directed advice via memail based on your location/desired location or more details about what your goals are; I used to work in a cognitive neuroscience/memory lab.
posted by supercres at 9:53 PM on November 30, 2014 [2 favorites]
Also willing to give you directed advice via memail based on your location/desired location or more details about what your goals are; I used to work in a cognitive neuroscience/memory lab.
posted by supercres at 9:53 PM on November 30, 2014 [2 favorites]
Do not, repeat DO NOT, go into a CogSci PhD program without research experience. As it so happens I also majored in Cognitive Science (and Computer Science) as an undergrad, and strongly considered going on to get a further degree. Instead I got a job as a research assistant in a lab doing fMRI studies. After about a year and a half I left for a career in software and never looked back. Research is definitely not for everyone, and you will benefit immensely by being exposed to that world before you think about getting a PhD.
posted by sophist at 2:50 AM on December 1, 2014 [3 favorites]
posted by sophist at 2:50 AM on December 1, 2014 [3 favorites]
What about doing it in empirically-minded philosophy (maybe at a place like WashU) or psychology? Obviously, which would depend on your interests.
posted by persona au gratin at 3:18 AM on December 1, 2014
posted by persona au gratin at 3:18 AM on December 1, 2014
Best answer: My desired focus is information processing and possibly retrieval.
I'd be able to give some advice if I knew more about your research interests (you could mefi-mail me as well). I will say that I've (subjectively) found that Ph.D. applicants who use "information processing" as a description of their interests tend not to actually know what they want to do, as it isn't a description of much of anything and IMO it's a bit old-fashioned of a term anyways (perhaps outside of CMU). Here's some discussion that tries to work out what this term could actually mean, and may in the process give an idea of why it's not a useful way to describe your interests. You should think about narrowing along at least two dimensions: empirical domain (vision, language, humans or not, etc) and methods/theory (behavioral, computational (connectionist, bayesian, ...), brain imaging, etc). These are the dimensions along which the vast majority of labs describe themselves, and getting into some sort of CogSci-related Ph.D. program usually entails getting into some particular lab (setting aside philosophy and to some extent linguistics).
People have identified one reason for getting involved in research: to figure out if research is for you. But the other reason is to figure out what you actually might do, what is at the forefront of current work, and how your interests might fit into that. The best applicants will have some concrete and specific ideas about this, and if you really want to pursue this path it will be somewhat hard to develop this kind of focused application without direct experience.
posted by advil at 8:55 AM on December 1, 2014 [2 favorites]
I'd be able to give some advice if I knew more about your research interests (you could mefi-mail me as well). I will say that I've (subjectively) found that Ph.D. applicants who use "information processing" as a description of their interests tend not to actually know what they want to do, as it isn't a description of much of anything and IMO it's a bit old-fashioned of a term anyways (perhaps outside of CMU). Here's some discussion that tries to work out what this term could actually mean, and may in the process give an idea of why it's not a useful way to describe your interests. You should think about narrowing along at least two dimensions: empirical domain (vision, language, humans or not, etc) and methods/theory (behavioral, computational (connectionist, bayesian, ...), brain imaging, etc). These are the dimensions along which the vast majority of labs describe themselves, and getting into some sort of CogSci-related Ph.D. program usually entails getting into some particular lab (setting aside philosophy and to some extent linguistics).
People have identified one reason for getting involved in research: to figure out if research is for you. But the other reason is to figure out what you actually might do, what is at the forefront of current work, and how your interests might fit into that. The best applicants will have some concrete and specific ideas about this, and if you really want to pursue this path it will be somewhat hard to develop this kind of focused application without direct experience.
posted by advil at 8:55 AM on December 1, 2014 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: Hey everyone.
Thanks a lot for the great feedback, it's been very, very useful for me read all your answers, suggestions, feedback. To me, it feels like while I know I need to make change in my career, PhD might be jumping the gun immediately and as couple of you pointed out, a research experience isn't just for "getting in" but also making sure that I am both cut out for what it takes and also to make sure I am really interested enough.
I also need to figure what I'm *really* interested in, what I want to study. As I've been out of the loop academically, I haven't been able to phrase what I'm interested in correctly and it shows. Anything from specific questions, my domain, my methods, and everything else.
Again, I think my next step is to actually reach deeper into the material, see what interests me and try to "earn my way" using my pre-existing skills. It doesn't seem to be worth dropping what I have right now to pursue something I don't know if I really want.
If anyone has further comments, feel free to memail me too :)
posted by the_dude at 7:11 PM on December 1, 2014 [1 favorite]
Thanks a lot for the great feedback, it's been very, very useful for me read all your answers, suggestions, feedback. To me, it feels like while I know I need to make change in my career, PhD might be jumping the gun immediately and as couple of you pointed out, a research experience isn't just for "getting in" but also making sure that I am both cut out for what it takes and also to make sure I am really interested enough.
I also need to figure what I'm *really* interested in, what I want to study. As I've been out of the loop academically, I haven't been able to phrase what I'm interested in correctly and it shows. Anything from specific questions, my domain, my methods, and everything else.
Again, I think my next step is to actually reach deeper into the material, see what interests me and try to "earn my way" using my pre-existing skills. It doesn't seem to be worth dropping what I have right now to pursue something I don't know if I really want.
If anyone has further comments, feel free to memail me too :)
posted by the_dude at 7:11 PM on December 1, 2014 [1 favorite]
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FWIW, this was also my situation during grad school applications, and I was accepted to (and completed) a PhD program. I did also have quite a bit of research experience, though. My typical advice in this situation would be to find researchers whose work you're interested in and to send out your CV like crazy, offering to volunteer part time and/or be a full-time tech for them.
The typical undergrad applying to grad school has done at least a thesis project, which is often around 2 years -- but typically that's only ~15-20h/wk except during summers. I think being a tech for a year would make you a lot more competitive than you are now. But you can also play up the work you've done in the intervening time in the tech industry since that (together with good recs) shows you're responsible, motivated, and have relevant skills, like coding and analytical reasoning.
(There were definitely people who were near 30 in my entering graduate cohort, so I don't think that's a big issue; not all of them did research for the entire intervening time either, though most of them did at least some research.)
posted by en forme de poire at 7:32 PM on November 30, 2014