is this a red flag or am I too sensitive?
November 19, 2014 10:04 AM Subscribe
New guy I'm seeing came over completely wasted and seems to drink quite a bit. I have alcoholism/drug addiction in my family so I feel like sometimes I can be too judgmental about things that others deem normal. I also am petrified of vulnerability and have a tendency to push people away. How do I know what's normal and what's not when it comes to drinking and dating?
Before he came over super drunk I was totally into him. We had 4 dates prior to that and they were all romantic, perfect, long, amazing dates that gave me butterflies. We didn't rush into the physical stuff, which I usually do rush into as a safeguard against emotional intimacy. But now I'm beginning to think it's strange that he hasn't tried to do more (i.e., sleep with me) and that maybe he's just been too drunk on other dates and I didn't notice.
On our dinner dates we'd order a bottle of wine, and I didn't notice anything out of the ordinary about his drinking habits. He doesn't do drugs. On our 4th date he cooked dinner, and when I got to his place he had already started drinking wine. I thought this was strange, but please correct me if it's not. I barely know him so my frame of reference is limited.
The night he came over it was late on a weekend night. He and I had tentative plans, then I said I was going to go out with a friend and that we could meet up later. So he came over after midnight and he was just a babbling, drunk, red-eyed mess. He could barely keep his eyes open. I made it clear that I didn't like being around him when he was like that, and that it was really uncool of him to get that fucked up and then come over. He apologized, blah blah, I let him sleep on the couch. In the morning he came into my room and apologized profusely (I appreciated the sober apology). I said I wasn't angry but that if this is a regular thing I can't stick around. The thing is, how do I know if it's a regular thing without waiting longer and getting more emotionally attached? If someone would show me this side of themselves so early on, what am I waiting for? Seeing him like that left me feeling so broken, because I was starting to open up to someone and feel okay with closeness, and then I felt like I was hit in the face by my childhood struggles again.
He doesn't know about my alcoholic dad and alcoholic/drug-abusing brother. He knows some stuff about my brother but I don't think I touched on the substance abuse.
I was going to end things completely after the drunk episode, but a couple of my friends said I was being hyper-judgmental because of my background and that he "got too drunk one time, it happens." I had already agreed to go to a sporting event this week and he said we could go as friends if I wanted b/c he really enjoys my company. So I'm seeing him again.
Since this weekend when it happened, my anxiety has been through the roof and I feel like a brick wall has gone back up around my heart, the wall that I was slowing starting to chip away at. I do not have room in my life for more of the same type of pain. I can't date an alcoholic. But I don't want to dismiss someone for exhibiting normal drinking behaviors that I hyperbolize because of my upbringing.
The other thing-- he seems to have a lot of social events based around drinking. He seems much more upbeat/extroverted/energetic than I am, so I don't understand if I'm overanalyzing this as well. Like, he'll meet his friend for drinks on a Sunday night. Or he'll have a birthday party on a weeknight and stay out til 4 (drinking, I presume).
What should I do? I like this guy in every other possible way. He makes me laugh, he's sweet and smart and romantic and generous. He's a good listener and wants to know every dumb detail about what makes me who I am.
I'm in therapy. The last time I was fearful about a guy I had started seeing, my therapist told me "If he ends up being crazy/whatever you're scared of, you can simply end it. You've been on a few dates. You're not trapped." Thinking about it like this has really helped me.
Still, I'm confused. What would you do in my position? Should I give him another chance? Wait until another super-drunk episode and re-evaluate? I'm so scared of being vulnerable/intimate, but I'm even more scared of letting my guard down and finding myself with an addict or someone that I'll try to "fix" with love.
Thanks in advance.
Before he came over super drunk I was totally into him. We had 4 dates prior to that and they were all romantic, perfect, long, amazing dates that gave me butterflies. We didn't rush into the physical stuff, which I usually do rush into as a safeguard against emotional intimacy. But now I'm beginning to think it's strange that he hasn't tried to do more (i.e., sleep with me) and that maybe he's just been too drunk on other dates and I didn't notice.
On our dinner dates we'd order a bottle of wine, and I didn't notice anything out of the ordinary about his drinking habits. He doesn't do drugs. On our 4th date he cooked dinner, and when I got to his place he had already started drinking wine. I thought this was strange, but please correct me if it's not. I barely know him so my frame of reference is limited.
The night he came over it was late on a weekend night. He and I had tentative plans, then I said I was going to go out with a friend and that we could meet up later. So he came over after midnight and he was just a babbling, drunk, red-eyed mess. He could barely keep his eyes open. I made it clear that I didn't like being around him when he was like that, and that it was really uncool of him to get that fucked up and then come over. He apologized, blah blah, I let him sleep on the couch. In the morning he came into my room and apologized profusely (I appreciated the sober apology). I said I wasn't angry but that if this is a regular thing I can't stick around. The thing is, how do I know if it's a regular thing without waiting longer and getting more emotionally attached? If someone would show me this side of themselves so early on, what am I waiting for? Seeing him like that left me feeling so broken, because I was starting to open up to someone and feel okay with closeness, and then I felt like I was hit in the face by my childhood struggles again.
He doesn't know about my alcoholic dad and alcoholic/drug-abusing brother. He knows some stuff about my brother but I don't think I touched on the substance abuse.
I was going to end things completely after the drunk episode, but a couple of my friends said I was being hyper-judgmental because of my background and that he "got too drunk one time, it happens." I had already agreed to go to a sporting event this week and he said we could go as friends if I wanted b/c he really enjoys my company. So I'm seeing him again.
Since this weekend when it happened, my anxiety has been through the roof and I feel like a brick wall has gone back up around my heart, the wall that I was slowing starting to chip away at. I do not have room in my life for more of the same type of pain. I can't date an alcoholic. But I don't want to dismiss someone for exhibiting normal drinking behaviors that I hyperbolize because of my upbringing.
The other thing-- he seems to have a lot of social events based around drinking. He seems much more upbeat/extroverted/energetic than I am, so I don't understand if I'm overanalyzing this as well. Like, he'll meet his friend for drinks on a Sunday night. Or he'll have a birthday party on a weeknight and stay out til 4 (drinking, I presume).
What should I do? I like this guy in every other possible way. He makes me laugh, he's sweet and smart and romantic and generous. He's a good listener and wants to know every dumb detail about what makes me who I am.
I'm in therapy. The last time I was fearful about a guy I had started seeing, my therapist told me "If he ends up being crazy/whatever you're scared of, you can simply end it. You've been on a few dates. You're not trapped." Thinking about it like this has really helped me.
Still, I'm confused. What would you do in my position? Should I give him another chance? Wait until another super-drunk episode and re-evaluate? I'm so scared of being vulnerable/intimate, but I'm even more scared of letting my guard down and finding myself with an addict or someone that I'll try to "fix" with love.
Thanks in advance.
Showing up wasted to the fifth date is not normal. I also think your friends are idiots and this behavior so early in a relationship is not a good sign. He might be lovely otherwise, but you should not feel that you are over reacting or need to stick it out any longer.
posted by florencetnoa at 10:14 AM on November 19, 2014 [40 favorites]
posted by florencetnoa at 10:14 AM on November 19, 2014 [40 favorites]
A person doesn't have to be wrong or abnormal to be wrong for you.
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 10:14 AM on November 19, 2014 [52 favorites]
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 10:14 AM on November 19, 2014 [52 favorites]
I come from a family of problem drinkers and for me this is over the line.
Not just the showing up late drunk and babbling (what? not okay!) but if he's a regular heavy drinker then it seems like it's a bad fit for you. Nothing necessarily wrong with him for it to be a bad fit, just a bad fit. I've also had friends try to "talk me out of" ending a relationship because I was uncomfortable with my SOs level of drinking and honestly, they're not me. I need to be with someone who can control their drinking (or smoking, or whatever it is) and not have it control them and not have it get in the way of my life. This guy is already having trouble with you and boundaries and doing things he has to abjectly apologize for. That's too much drama too early.
One of the worst things about growing up with problem drinkers is the continual gaslighting that you are the one with the problem, not them. And that limits you try to set are about you being uptight and not them making their drinking your problem. Fuck that. You're allowed to have boundaries and you're allowed to be with people who don't drink this heavily (there are many of them, I am dating one now) just because that's what you're looking for in a partner, not because you may think he's an alcoholic.
posted by jessamyn at 10:15 AM on November 19, 2014 [58 favorites]
Not just the showing up late drunk and babbling (what? not okay!) but if he's a regular heavy drinker then it seems like it's a bad fit for you. Nothing necessarily wrong with him for it to be a bad fit, just a bad fit. I've also had friends try to "talk me out of" ending a relationship because I was uncomfortable with my SOs level of drinking and honestly, they're not me. I need to be with someone who can control their drinking (or smoking, or whatever it is) and not have it control them and not have it get in the way of my life. This guy is already having trouble with you and boundaries and doing things he has to abjectly apologize for. That's too much drama too early.
One of the worst things about growing up with problem drinkers is the continual gaslighting that you are the one with the problem, not them. And that limits you try to set are about you being uptight and not them making their drinking your problem. Fuck that. You're allowed to have boundaries and you're allowed to be with people who don't drink this heavily (there are many of them, I am dating one now) just because that's what you're looking for in a partner, not because you may think he's an alcoholic.
posted by jessamyn at 10:15 AM on November 19, 2014 [58 favorites]
If you have to ask if somebody is wrong for you, the answer is yes. Dump him, and find a guy who doesn't drink to excess.
posted by starbreaker at 10:17 AM on November 19, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by starbreaker at 10:17 AM on November 19, 2014 [2 favorites]
This is a flag and you should move on. I drink; most of my friends drink; his behavior would be considered over the line by pretty much all of us, I think.
posted by rtha at 10:17 AM on November 19, 2014 [6 favorites]
posted by rtha at 10:17 AM on November 19, 2014 [6 favorites]
a couple of my friends said I was being hyper-judgmental because of my background and that he "got too drunk one time, it happens."
I don't think your friends are doing you any favors here.
The thing is: This is your love life. You can have any standards you want and not be too judgmental. If you don't want to date guys who don't want kids, or guys who do want kids, or guys who are or are not of your religion, that is YOUR PREROGATIVE. If you don't want to date guys who eat toast, or who are over 6"1', or who have tattoos, or who are named Dave, that is totally up to you.
And if you want to date a guy who doesn't drink -- dude, that is an option too. There are awesome guys out there who, for whatever reason, choose not to drink. And there are even more guys out there who drink in a responsible way and wouldn't dream of staying out until 4 AM on a weeknight.
I call bullshit on wanting to date a guy who doesn't show up drunk and unexpected as being somehow "too judgmental."
I had already agreed to go to a sporting event this week and he said we could go as friends if I wanted b/c he really enjoys my company
Depending on how he phrased this, and when he said it, I could see it being a separate red flag. Did you try to back out of going to the event? If so, it kind of seems like he was pushing your boundaries here.
posted by pie ninja at 10:18 AM on November 19, 2014 [7 favorites]
I don't think your friends are doing you any favors here.
The thing is: This is your love life. You can have any standards you want and not be too judgmental. If you don't want to date guys who don't want kids, or guys who do want kids, or guys who are or are not of your religion, that is YOUR PREROGATIVE. If you don't want to date guys who eat toast, or who are over 6"1', or who have tattoos, or who are named Dave, that is totally up to you.
And if you want to date a guy who doesn't drink -- dude, that is an option too. There are awesome guys out there who, for whatever reason, choose not to drink. And there are even more guys out there who drink in a responsible way and wouldn't dream of staying out until 4 AM on a weeknight.
I call bullshit on wanting to date a guy who doesn't show up drunk and unexpected as being somehow "too judgmental."
I had already agreed to go to a sporting event this week and he said we could go as friends if I wanted b/c he really enjoys my company
Depending on how he phrased this, and when he said it, I could see it being a separate red flag. Did you try to back out of going to the event? If so, it kind of seems like he was pushing your boundaries here.
posted by pie ninja at 10:18 AM on November 19, 2014 [7 favorites]
I wouldn't say that anything he's doing is weird, or abnormal, or problematic in and of itself. I drink, my friends drink. Dealing with a super-drunk person when you're sober is annoying as hell, but it's not necessarily a horrible sign of things to come. Each of the people I've dated has done this exactly once, come to think of it--it's really easy to accidentally get drunker than you planned, but it's usually an unpleasant lesson learned and not repeated.
Nonetheless I don't think YOU, personally, are comfortable with it or are ever going to be, and that's all that matters.
It may be that you should focus your dating efforts on people who do not drink at all, or who drink only very very rarely (and you should specify this on your profile if you're doing online dating).
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 10:20 AM on November 19, 2014 [8 favorites]
Nonetheless I don't think YOU, personally, are comfortable with it or are ever going to be, and that's all that matters.
It may be that you should focus your dating efforts on people who do not drink at all, or who drink only very very rarely (and you should specify this on your profile if you're doing online dating).
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 10:20 AM on November 19, 2014 [8 favorites]
Well, you've got a range of different behaviours here, some of which seem perfectly healthy to me, some less so.
1) Having a glass of wine while cooking seems perfectly normal and unobjectionable to me.
2) going out a lot during the week again doesn't seem inherently sketchy --- depends on his job and his personality. There are some professions --- PR, for example --- where schmoozing a bit at evening cocktail events a few times a week is pretty much a job requirement
3) staying out till four on a weeknight...eh, that suggests some potential irresponsibility. If he's getting hammered while doing so, then I'd say definitely irresponsible. Bit of a sliding scale --- it seems sketchier to me if he's 42 than if he's 22.
4) finally, showing up at your place hammered: all by itself, I don't think it's the worst thing in the world. Plenty of people who have perfectly healthy relationship with alcohol and have a off night where nerves or bad judgement lead them to over-indulge; by itself it doesn't seem to me a deal breaker. Combined with the other stuff....I don't think he necessarily has a drinking problem per se, but it does seem like he's someone who drinks more than you are personally going to be comfortable with.
And that's okay. But your therapist is right: it's not like if you go on one more date with this guy, that's it, you're going to be chained to an alcoholic for the rest of your life. It's a date. Continue to monitor the situation, and if it turns out that his level of drinking bugs you break up with him. You don't have to pour out your family history to him at this point either, but it might be wise to at least make clear to him that this is something you're sensitive about to the point of it being potentially a deal breaker. After all, if he doesn't have a drinking problem, he'll have no trouble drinking less around you if it bugs you.
posted by Diablevert at 10:25 AM on November 19, 2014 [20 favorites]
1) Having a glass of wine while cooking seems perfectly normal and unobjectionable to me.
2) going out a lot during the week again doesn't seem inherently sketchy --- depends on his job and his personality. There are some professions --- PR, for example --- where schmoozing a bit at evening cocktail events a few times a week is pretty much a job requirement
3) staying out till four on a weeknight...eh, that suggests some potential irresponsibility. If he's getting hammered while doing so, then I'd say definitely irresponsible. Bit of a sliding scale --- it seems sketchier to me if he's 42 than if he's 22.
4) finally, showing up at your place hammered: all by itself, I don't think it's the worst thing in the world. Plenty of people who have perfectly healthy relationship with alcohol and have a off night where nerves or bad judgement lead them to over-indulge; by itself it doesn't seem to me a deal breaker. Combined with the other stuff....I don't think he necessarily has a drinking problem per se, but it does seem like he's someone who drinks more than you are personally going to be comfortable with.
And that's okay. But your therapist is right: it's not like if you go on one more date with this guy, that's it, you're going to be chained to an alcoholic for the rest of your life. It's a date. Continue to monitor the situation, and if it turns out that his level of drinking bugs you break up with him. You don't have to pour out your family history to him at this point either, but it might be wise to at least make clear to him that this is something you're sensitive about to the point of it being potentially a deal breaker. After all, if he doesn't have a drinking problem, he'll have no trouble drinking less around you if it bugs you.
posted by Diablevert at 10:25 AM on November 19, 2014 [20 favorites]
when I got to his place he had already started drinking wine. I thought this was strange, but please correct me if it's not.
I don't think that's strange at all, but he was way out of line showing up drunk at your house. As others have said above, even if his drinking isn't A Big Bad Thing, you're sounding uncomfortable with his behavior and that's a perfectly good reason not to continue seeing him.
posted by Admiral Haddock at 10:25 AM on November 19, 2014 [1 favorite]
I don't think that's strange at all, but he was way out of line showing up drunk at your house. As others have said above, even if his drinking isn't A Big Bad Thing, you're sounding uncomfortable with his behavior and that's a perfectly good reason not to continue seeing him.
posted by Admiral Haddock at 10:25 AM on November 19, 2014 [1 favorite]
Ugh, you're allowed to be judgmental about what is right for you and what you're comfortable with and what you like! Don't listen to anybody who says you have to not judge people you're dating. If you don't, then you might as well just date anybody.
(My friends tried to encourage me to continue to date a substance abuser, saying I could issue ultimatums or change him (No, thank you, I have enough on my plate). Some people think it's better to have a boyfriend than be single and be a bit picky. They're nuts.)
He should not have come over wasted period. It's disrespectful, and you're not his mom that you have to sober him up.
posted by discopolo at 10:29 AM on November 19, 2014 [4 favorites]
(My friends tried to encourage me to continue to date a substance abuser, saying I could issue ultimatums or change him (No, thank you, I have enough on my plate). Some people think it's better to have a boyfriend than be single and be a bit picky. They're nuts.)
He should not have come over wasted period. It's disrespectful, and you're not his mom that you have to sober him up.
posted by discopolo at 10:29 AM on November 19, 2014 [4 favorites]
On our 4th date he cooked dinner, and when I got to his place he had already started drinking wine. I thought this was strange, but please correct me if it's not.
Not strange. In my circle of friends, if the oven is on, the wine is flowing.
The night he came over it was late on a weekend night. He and I had tentative plans, then I said I was going to go out with a friend and that we could meet up later. So he came over after midnight and he was just a babbling, drunk, red-eyed mess.
Not cool. BUT, it is not uncommon for people (esp. in their early 20s) to drink more than they planned or to feel fine when agreeing to come over and then the drunkeness hits all at once. Not saying that this excuses it, but I've known many people who have had a bit too much on occasion, especially at that age - only on weekends and when out with friends. Most of us grew out of it, and it wasn't really a symptom of a larger/persistent problem (other than, perhaps, a problem with US alcohol culture in general).
That said, you can of course break it off it you want to. You don't owe it to anyone to stick around for any period of time. My mom's father was an alcoholic and she gets very uncomfortable around anyone who is visibly intoxicated - it's a trigger for her. I'd maybe say something to him along the lines of "Several people in my family have substance abuse problems, and because of that I'm really uncomfortable around anyone who is visibly drunk. I don't care what you do in your free time, but if we're going to continue seeing each other, it would make me more comfortable if you don't drink prior to our dates." If he can do that, great; if not, then show him the door.
posted by melissasaurus at 10:29 AM on November 19, 2014 [7 favorites]
Not strange. In my circle of friends, if the oven is on, the wine is flowing.
The night he came over it was late on a weekend night. He and I had tentative plans, then I said I was going to go out with a friend and that we could meet up later. So he came over after midnight and he was just a babbling, drunk, red-eyed mess.
Not cool. BUT, it is not uncommon for people (esp. in their early 20s) to drink more than they planned or to feel fine when agreeing to come over and then the drunkeness hits all at once. Not saying that this excuses it, but I've known many people who have had a bit too much on occasion, especially at that age - only on weekends and when out with friends. Most of us grew out of it, and it wasn't really a symptom of a larger/persistent problem (other than, perhaps, a problem with US alcohol culture in general).
That said, you can of course break it off it you want to. You don't owe it to anyone to stick around for any period of time. My mom's father was an alcoholic and she gets very uncomfortable around anyone who is visibly intoxicated - it's a trigger for her. I'd maybe say something to him along the lines of "Several people in my family have substance abuse problems, and because of that I'm really uncomfortable around anyone who is visibly drunk. I don't care what you do in your free time, but if we're going to continue seeing each other, it would make me more comfortable if you don't drink prior to our dates." If he can do that, great; if not, then show him the door.
posted by melissasaurus at 10:29 AM on November 19, 2014 [7 favorites]
One of the really hard things about having alcoholism in your family is that their attempts at manipulation eventually cause you to constantly question your own judgment. It takes a lot of work to get back to the point where you have faith in what you know is right.
Trust yourself. You know what's right for you, and you know that this isn't it. That is absolutely, positively, 100% okay. I know it's hard when he seems good in all other ways. But that one way in which he isn't is going to cause you so much grief as to render all the other positives meaningless. You can find someone else who has all those positives without this one screaming red flag.
posted by something something at 10:30 AM on November 19, 2014 [17 favorites]
Trust yourself. You know what's right for you, and you know that this isn't it. That is absolutely, positively, 100% okay. I know it's hard when he seems good in all other ways. But that one way in which he isn't is going to cause you so much grief as to render all the other positives meaningless. You can find someone else who has all those positives without this one screaming red flag.
posted by something something at 10:30 AM on November 19, 2014 [17 favorites]
To share an anecdote from a recent personal experience I've had:
I dated a guy for a not-insignificant amount of time and I was always uneasy with the amount of drinking he was doing. Nothing on its own was a huge huge red flag, but there were a lot of things like what you describe. Staying out getting wasted super-late on weeknights, showing up at my place smelling of alcohol, etc. I dismissed these concerns as projections from my own boozy family history and made excuses for him.
Then he got sober, and the confessions started. He was almost always drunker than he'd let on, the alcohol was very much a crutch for a range of issues, and etc. etc. The impulse control issue was larger than anything I cared to deal with, and it had already hurt me in a handful of ways. I was incorrect to dismiss my concerns when I first felt them, and I consider it a lesson learned.
One good thing to come out of the experience is that I started going to Al-Anon meetings. I was really skeptical, but it gives me a lot of valuable perspective and encouragement as I process this relationship AND the alcoholism I grew up with. Al-Anon is worth at least a try. Good luck.
posted by magdalemon at 10:31 AM on November 19, 2014 [3 favorites]
I dated a guy for a not-insignificant amount of time and I was always uneasy with the amount of drinking he was doing. Nothing on its own was a huge huge red flag, but there were a lot of things like what you describe. Staying out getting wasted super-late on weeknights, showing up at my place smelling of alcohol, etc. I dismissed these concerns as projections from my own boozy family history and made excuses for him.
Then he got sober, and the confessions started. He was almost always drunker than he'd let on, the alcohol was very much a crutch for a range of issues, and etc. etc. The impulse control issue was larger than anything I cared to deal with, and it had already hurt me in a handful of ways. I was incorrect to dismiss my concerns when I first felt them, and I consider it a lesson learned.
One good thing to come out of the experience is that I started going to Al-Anon meetings. I was really skeptical, but it gives me a lot of valuable perspective and encouragement as I process this relationship AND the alcoholism I grew up with. Al-Anon is worth at least a try. Good luck.
posted by magdalemon at 10:31 AM on November 19, 2014 [3 favorites]
Whether this guy is an alcoholic or not, the weird feeling you have about this situation and all of its details could simply be your gut telling you that this is not the right guy for you. Go with your gut on this one.
posted by strelitzia at 10:33 AM on November 19, 2014 [5 favorites]
posted by strelitzia at 10:33 AM on November 19, 2014 [5 favorites]
Some of this behavior seems fairly normal to me (i.e. having a glass of wine while preparing dinner), some of it does not (especially showing up at your apartment wasted -- early in a relationship, my response to accidentally getting super drunk would be to call off the date, not continue and show up falling-apart-drunk). Regardless, you are allowed to have your own boundaries around this, and that's perfectly ok. If you prefer to date someone who doesn't drink heavily on your dates, it is 100% your right to do so! And given your family history, I think it sounds like a wise choice. Drinking patterns that might not be a problem for someone else could totally be a legitimate issue for you. In particular, if lots of his social life revolves around drinking, and you guys get serious, suddenly lots of YOUR social life might start to revolve around drinking, and that is rightfully something you may not want. You're not making a judgement that he's a terrible person and deserves to be alone for his entire life; you're merely saying he's not a great fit for you. Honestly, if I have been on 4 dates with someone and they are causing me this level of anxiety, for whatever reason, I know it's a red flag and I should end things.
And, if the anxiety thing happens with everyone you try to date, maybe that's a sign that you've got more stuff to work on with yourself before you try bringing another person into the picture? I don't think it's a sign that you should just ignore the anxiety and date someone who makes you feel icky and uncomfortable.
posted by rainbowbrite at 10:41 AM on November 19, 2014
And, if the anxiety thing happens with everyone you try to date, maybe that's a sign that you've got more stuff to work on with yourself before you try bringing another person into the picture? I don't think it's a sign that you should just ignore the anxiety and date someone who makes you feel icky and uncomfortable.
posted by rainbowbrite at 10:41 AM on November 19, 2014
If the dude can't control his behavior well enough to get through five freakin' dates without turning up wasted and babbling, I'd say there's a good chance that he can't control himself period. People have off days to be sure, but when you've got a new partner you should be on your best behavior. Expecting someone to deal with your slobbering-drunk ass on no notice when you've only gone out four times previously means that either you don't know how to control yourself or that you think showing up drunk and unexpected is perfectly normal. Either way, it's not something you should feel in any way obligated to deal with; this guy hasn't racked up nearly enough credit with you for this to be something that can be just overlooked, and the fact that he's doing this so soon means that it's likely to happen a lot.
It's not guaranteed, mind you. Maybe he's almost always perfectly responsible about his drinking, and this was just an aberration that happened to occur unusually early on. Maybe it would never happen again. I wouldn't bet on it though, and I can't see a way for you to find out without hamstringing the whole relationship right from the start. You don't want to begin a partnership by interrogating someone about their drinking habits; that sets a strong note of distrust on top of the already sour taste left by his poor behavior.
You don't have enough invested in this guy to make trying to get past this incident worthwhile. Write him off and look for someone else whose best behavior doesn't include showing up sloppy drunk on your couch at four in the morning. Maybe he'll learn a lesson for next time.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 10:43 AM on November 19, 2014 [9 favorites]
It's not guaranteed, mind you. Maybe he's almost always perfectly responsible about his drinking, and this was just an aberration that happened to occur unusually early on. Maybe it would never happen again. I wouldn't bet on it though, and I can't see a way for you to find out without hamstringing the whole relationship right from the start. You don't want to begin a partnership by interrogating someone about their drinking habits; that sets a strong note of distrust on top of the already sour taste left by his poor behavior.
You don't have enough invested in this guy to make trying to get past this incident worthwhile. Write him off and look for someone else whose best behavior doesn't include showing up sloppy drunk on your couch at four in the morning. Maybe he'll learn a lesson for next time.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 10:43 AM on November 19, 2014 [9 favorites]
Your lifestyles are not compatible.
Move on.
posted by jbenben at 10:46 AM on November 19, 2014 [7 favorites]
Move on.
posted by jbenben at 10:46 AM on November 19, 2014 [7 favorites]
I'm curious how he got to your place the night he was blind drunk. Did he drive?
Anyway, just move on. Your friends are wrong. There are a ton of guys out there who aren't problematic drinkers; if you're going to be with anyone, it needs to be one of them. You don't necessarily need to be with a teetotaler -- just someone who has it together enough to not make his drinking your problem, which is what this guy already did there on Date 5.
posted by fingersandtoes at 10:50 AM on November 19, 2014 [4 favorites]
Anyway, just move on. Your friends are wrong. There are a ton of guys out there who aren't problematic drinkers; if you're going to be with anyone, it needs to be one of them. You don't necessarily need to be with a teetotaler -- just someone who has it together enough to not make his drinking your problem, which is what this guy already did there on Date 5.
posted by fingersandtoes at 10:50 AM on November 19, 2014 [4 favorites]
There are no problem drinkers in my family and I still say this is a dump-able offense and a BIG red flag. This is not normal, your friends sound young or naive (no offense). Break up with him, please, for your own sanity.
posted by Toddles at 10:52 AM on November 19, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by Toddles at 10:52 AM on November 19, 2014 [1 favorite]
Earlier this year I showed up at a guy's house to pick him up for our third date, and he asked me what I was doing there. I reminded him of our date, and he had forgotten. And gotten stinking, weaving drunk. At 6pm on a Monday night.
Yes, I liked him a lot. Yes, I felt like we were comfortable together and attracted to each other. Yes, I still think about him and wish things had gone differently. But I listened to my gut: I have a family history of alcoholism and a lifelong aversion to alcohol & anyone drinking. This was a grown man with a job and responsibilities. His forgetting our third date and getting drunk instead made me feel like, given a long hard day and a choice between me and drinking, he was probably not going to choose me. I didn't wait around to see a pattern. I stopped contacting him.
I still don't know whether I was right. But I didn't want to risk the heartache of DISCOVERING I was right. And in that, I believe I made the right choice.
You have to make a choice, because obviously this situation is really bothering you. If I were you I would let him know you cannot continue the relationship because you are not comfortable with how much he drinks, and then go on with life. But it's up to you. Just be aware: you can be okay with your choice and still feel really bad about losing him, not be sure you did the right thing, etc. The important thing is that YOU are okay with your choice and stick by it because it was the right thing for YOU. Not easy to know sometimes...but you can do it.
posted by gillyflower at 10:54 AM on November 19, 2014 [26 favorites]
Yes, I liked him a lot. Yes, I felt like we were comfortable together and attracted to each other. Yes, I still think about him and wish things had gone differently. But I listened to my gut: I have a family history of alcoholism and a lifelong aversion to alcohol & anyone drinking. This was a grown man with a job and responsibilities. His forgetting our third date and getting drunk instead made me feel like, given a long hard day and a choice between me and drinking, he was probably not going to choose me. I didn't wait around to see a pattern. I stopped contacting him.
I still don't know whether I was right. But I didn't want to risk the heartache of DISCOVERING I was right. And in that, I believe I made the right choice.
You have to make a choice, because obviously this situation is really bothering you. If I were you I would let him know you cannot continue the relationship because you are not comfortable with how much he drinks, and then go on with life. But it's up to you. Just be aware: you can be okay with your choice and still feel really bad about losing him, not be sure you did the right thing, etc. The important thing is that YOU are okay with your choice and stick by it because it was the right thing for YOU. Not easy to know sometimes...but you can do it.
posted by gillyflower at 10:54 AM on November 19, 2014 [26 favorites]
I think this is a judgement call with no strictly right or wrong answer, so I encourage you to follow your gut and go with what you feel is right in your heart. It seems like you feel this is not okay, so it isn't for you. It doesn't have to be a problem to be an incompatibility. Even ignoring the showing up drunk incident, it sounds like alcohol is a pretty big part of his life. If you don't want it to be a part of yours, you might want to let this one go.
As an intermediate step, you could talk with him about how uncomfortable you were with the situation and drinking and see how he reacts.
posted by zug at 11:04 AM on November 19, 2014
As an intermediate step, you could talk with him about how uncomfortable you were with the situation and drinking and see how he reacts.
posted by zug at 11:04 AM on November 19, 2014
I think that with your history and your sensitivity in the areas of alcohol and drug use, you should say goodbye to this guy. His behavior isn't necessarily wrong, it's just wrong for you. I think you'd do better to find someone who isn't much of a social drinker and who doesn't do recreational drugs. There's no need for you to muscle through with someone who has a very different orientation from you when it comes to drinking/drugs. Move on and find someone who is a better lifestyle match for you.
posted by quince at 11:12 AM on November 19, 2014
posted by quince at 11:12 AM on November 19, 2014
When it comes to finding reasons for bowing out, you can take your pick. What's less attractive: a relationship-long reminiscence of a "babbling, drunk, red-eyed mess", or the fact that that mess was presented to you at a point when you still "barely knew him."
No, in the combined field of dating and drinking, this isn't "normal". It's about fucking poor judgment on his part, and about your gratitude to the universe of having found out so early.
posted by Namlit at 11:13 AM on November 19, 2014 [2 favorites]
No, in the combined field of dating and drinking, this isn't "normal". It's about fucking poor judgment on his part, and about your gratitude to the universe of having found out so early.
posted by Namlit at 11:13 AM on November 19, 2014 [2 favorites]
This would have been a red flag for me. And I think it's perfectly fine to start a glass of wine while you cook dinner.
It's up to you whether it's a red flag for you. Maybe you want to ask him about his drinking habits, or maybe you just want to be done with him. You are entitled to be as judgemental as you see fit in early dating.
posted by zennie at 11:13 AM on November 19, 2014
It's up to you whether it's a red flag for you. Maybe you want to ask him about his drinking habits, or maybe you just want to be done with him. You are entitled to be as judgemental as you see fit in early dating.
posted by zennie at 11:13 AM on November 19, 2014
You shouldn't have to put up with behaviour that makes you uncomfortable. BUT, this guy didn't have any reason to know know that his behaviour made you uncomfortable (except for the coming over drunk thing, that's not really normal, and not OK, imho).
When you voiced discomfort at his abnormal behaviour, he apologized. Good, he passed that test. The next test will come when you let him know that his more normal behaviour makes you uncomfortable. Because you really need to dump him, or tell him.
Like others have said, there is a very good chance that this guy isn't for you -- and that doesn't make you abnormal, nor him an alcoholic. But maybe if you let him know that his drinking is going to be a dealbreaker something might click for him and he might decide to cut back some.
I vote give him a chance, but don't hang your heart on him for now either.
posted by sparklemotion at 11:23 AM on November 19, 2014 [2 favorites]
When you voiced discomfort at his abnormal behaviour, he apologized. Good, he passed that test. The next test will come when you let him know that his more normal behaviour makes you uncomfortable. Because you really need to dump him, or tell him.
Like others have said, there is a very good chance that this guy isn't for you -- and that doesn't make you abnormal, nor him an alcoholic. But maybe if you let him know that his drinking is going to be a dealbreaker something might click for him and he might decide to cut back some.
I vote give him a chance, but don't hang your heart on him for now either.
posted by sparklemotion at 11:23 AM on November 19, 2014 [2 favorites]
I think that going to Al-Anon would be super-helpful for you. Also, if you don't want to be with someone who drinks to drunkeness, that's perfectly okay and non-judgemental.
I think drunks are a bore and I found someone who also doesn't drink to share my life with. Imagine how easy it is to know that we're both on the same page about it.
After 4 dates, if someone showed up THAT drunk for the fifth, I'd be writing him off. WTF dude?
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 11:37 AM on November 19, 2014 [5 favorites]
I think drunks are a bore and I found someone who also doesn't drink to share my life with. Imagine how easy it is to know that we're both on the same page about it.
After 4 dates, if someone showed up THAT drunk for the fifth, I'd be writing him off. WTF dude?
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 11:37 AM on November 19, 2014 [5 favorites]
I just want to address the part about whether you're too judgmental, over-reacting, etc.
I'd just forget about the word "alcoholism" for a minute and instead say "a problem with alcohol." To me, that means the person can't control how much they drink, or how they act when they're drinking. Or that alcohol is interfering with their life and their judgment. If this guy drove drunk to your place, then he does have a problem with alcohol. He showed up so inebriated that he couldn't converse, and could hardly stay awake -- this shows a problem with alcohol.
Then there's the part about your own personal beliefs and comfort level. Sure, it was "just one time" and you could wait and see, as your friends suggested. But there's absolutely nothing wrong if you want to say "forget it, no more." So what if your low tolerance for alcohol and drug use is influenced by your past experiences? Your feelings are valid for you.
By the way, in the beginning of a relationship, people are on their best behavior.
posted by wryly at 11:40 AM on November 19, 2014 [2 favorites]
I'd just forget about the word "alcoholism" for a minute and instead say "a problem with alcohol." To me, that means the person can't control how much they drink, or how they act when they're drinking. Or that alcohol is interfering with their life and their judgment. If this guy drove drunk to your place, then he does have a problem with alcohol. He showed up so inebriated that he couldn't converse, and could hardly stay awake -- this shows a problem with alcohol.
Then there's the part about your own personal beliefs and comfort level. Sure, it was "just one time" and you could wait and see, as your friends suggested. But there's absolutely nothing wrong if you want to say "forget it, no more." So what if your low tolerance for alcohol and drug use is influenced by your past experiences? Your feelings are valid for you.
By the way, in the beginning of a relationship, people are on their best behavior.
posted by wryly at 11:40 AM on November 19, 2014 [2 favorites]
I don't think you're being too sensitive at all. Showing up that drunk and that late at your place instead of having the self-awareness to bow out for the night and go home is a huge red flag.
posted by MsMolly at 11:44 AM on November 19, 2014 [3 favorites]
posted by MsMolly at 11:44 AM on November 19, 2014 [3 favorites]
I have a lot of family members and friends whose social lives revolve around drinking, and I wouldn't call any of them alcoholics (and not all or even most of them are problem drinkers, even), but: I am so glad that my husband's social life does NOT revolve around drinking like that, and neither does mine. It really snapped into focus when I was pregnant and my husband had no problem with not having beer in the fridge and not drinking at home in front of me, and I had so many people tell me "Oh my god I could/would *never* stop drinking just because my partner was pregnant! That's crazy!"
I mean, that's fine, and obviously they all have lovely and wonderful qualities or I wouldn't still be good friends with them, but personally I would put having a "take it or leave it" attitude towards alcohol and recreational drugs as right up there with being financially responsible, knowing how to fight fair, and other parts of what makes someone a really great partner. Other people have different criteria, and that's fine too.
The showing up drunk I could maybe write off as a one-time mistake with misjudging his tolerance, but the social life revolving around drinking and the starting on the wine before you showed up definitely marks this guy as someone who does NOT have a "take it or leave it" attitude towards alcohol. I'd break it off and feel fine doing it. This guy sounds like not a great fit for you.
posted by iminurmefi at 11:46 AM on November 19, 2014 [8 favorites]
I mean, that's fine, and obviously they all have lovely and wonderful qualities or I wouldn't still be good friends with them, but personally I would put having a "take it or leave it" attitude towards alcohol and recreational drugs as right up there with being financially responsible, knowing how to fight fair, and other parts of what makes someone a really great partner. Other people have different criteria, and that's fine too.
The showing up drunk I could maybe write off as a one-time mistake with misjudging his tolerance, but the social life revolving around drinking and the starting on the wine before you showed up definitely marks this guy as someone who does NOT have a "take it or leave it" attitude towards alcohol. I'd break it off and feel fine doing it. This guy sounds like not a great fit for you.
posted by iminurmefi at 11:46 AM on November 19, 2014 [8 favorites]
Your feelings are your own, and if your trigger warnings are being tripped, please honor them.
The only real regrets I have in my life is when I have allowed others to talk me out of heeding my own instincts. I'm am still living with the consequencvs of those decisions many year later, while some of the advice-givers are no longer even in my life. They don't have to live with the consequences of the advice they gave, but I have to live with the consequences of the decisions I made based on their advice, and I gotta say while they have been lessons learned, I'm still a bit bitter and angry at myself for not trusting myself.
Trust yourself, live your truth. If the guy does things that make you uncomfortable better to move along now so that you will have the time and energy to find the guy with whom you will feel perfectly comfortable.
posted by vignettist at 11:50 AM on November 19, 2014 [7 favorites]
The only real regrets I have in my life is when I have allowed others to talk me out of heeding my own instincts. I'm am still living with the consequencvs of those decisions many year later, while some of the advice-givers are no longer even in my life. They don't have to live with the consequences of the advice they gave, but I have to live with the consequences of the decisions I made based on their advice, and I gotta say while they have been lessons learned, I'm still a bit bitter and angry at myself for not trusting myself.
Trust yourself, live your truth. If the guy does things that make you uncomfortable better to move along now so that you will have the time and energy to find the guy with whom you will feel perfectly comfortable.
posted by vignettist at 11:50 AM on November 19, 2014 [7 favorites]
You have a finite amount of emotional resources and this guy is setting off alarms because it looks like he might be incredibly draining.
He might be. He might not be. Maybe he has a serious problem with alcohol that he'll never get over. Maybe it will take him a decade. Maybe he doesn't have a real problem at all, he's just young and a little irresponsible and learning and he will shape up real nice real soon.
It doesn't matter! It's not about him, it's about you. It's completely OK to put up boundaries. Your only obligations here are to yourself. You're not the criminal justice system, he's not entitled to a fair and speedy trial. Take care of yourself.
posted by leopard at 11:52 AM on November 19, 2014 [1 favorite]
He might be. He might not be. Maybe he has a serious problem with alcohol that he'll never get over. Maybe it will take him a decade. Maybe he doesn't have a real problem at all, he's just young and a little irresponsible and learning and he will shape up real nice real soon.
It doesn't matter! It's not about him, it's about you. It's completely OK to put up boundaries. Your only obligations here are to yourself. You're not the criminal justice system, he's not entitled to a fair and speedy trial. Take care of yourself.
posted by leopard at 11:52 AM on November 19, 2014 [1 favorite]
Run. There are a zillion guys out there who aren't idiots. This guy clearly is.
Also, as someone else said, did he drive? Because that would be a much bigger problem.
posted by Slinga at 12:03 PM on November 19, 2014 [3 favorites]
Also, as someone else said, did he drive? Because that would be a much bigger problem.
posted by Slinga at 12:03 PM on November 19, 2014 [3 favorites]
A couple of your friends say you are being hyper-judgemental.... so what?!? If they think his behavior is acceptable then they can date him. Right now you're the one dating him, not them, so only you get to say what is and what is not acceptable to you.
However, that said, yeah his drinking is a big red flag. He knows you try to avoid alcohol, he knows at least some of the 'why', and this was all after just four dates..... four dates, still well within the getting-to-know-you phase, when it's safe to assume he's on his best behavior. So: if this is his best behavior, then you can only expect more of the same as time goes by.
posted by easily confused at 12:11 PM on November 19, 2014 [2 favorites]
However, that said, yeah his drinking is a big red flag. He knows you try to avoid alcohol, he knows at least some of the 'why', and this was all after just four dates..... four dates, still well within the getting-to-know-you phase, when it's safe to assume he's on his best behavior. So: if this is his best behavior, then you can only expect more of the same as time goes by.
posted by easily confused at 12:11 PM on November 19, 2014 [2 favorites]
If you don't want to keep seeing this guy, then you do NOT, repeat do NOT, owe him "a chaaaance!" Women are always pressured into giving some guy a chance. Not attracted to him? Irresponsible and flaky? Shows up on your doorstep wasted off his gourd after five dates? Give him a chaaaance! I think this is so damaging to women, and is yet another message that we must second-guess ourselves and be too accommodating.
You don't owe him, or anyone, a chance. If he trips your triggers or makes you uncomfortable or you just don't want to deal with his drinking, you don't have to. Your friends can go pound sand - or THEY can date him! There are plenty of guys who don't drink to this extent. Hold out for someone compatible, who doesn't trigger you.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 12:17 PM on November 19, 2014 [11 favorites]
You don't owe him, or anyone, a chance. If he trips your triggers or makes you uncomfortable or you just don't want to deal with his drinking, you don't have to. Your friends can go pound sand - or THEY can date him! There are plenty of guys who don't drink to this extent. Hold out for someone compatible, who doesn't trigger you.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 12:17 PM on November 19, 2014 [11 favorites]
Response by poster: Just some additional info: he did NOT drive (we live in a city); his showing up at my apt was not unexpected but his level of inebriation was; he is 30 and I am 23; I am by no means straight-edge or looking for someone who abstains from drinking altogether. I enjoy drinking and I smoke pot recreationally. He does not know that I am sensitive to others' drinking behaviors.
posted by DayTripper at 12:17 PM on November 19, 2014
posted by DayTripper at 12:17 PM on November 19, 2014
This is about this guy, or any other guy. This is about your ability to effectively cope with your own feelings around a) your family history of alcohol/substance abuse; and b) your own boundaries with regard to how your friends/lovers use alcohol or other substances.
You need to have answers to these things for yourself first. If you can't cope with a situation because you don't have answers, what do you think you should do?
posted by gsh at 12:20 PM on November 19, 2014 [1 favorite]
You need to have answers to these things for yourself first. If you can't cope with a situation because you don't have answers, what do you think you should do?
posted by gsh at 12:20 PM on November 19, 2014 [1 favorite]
A red flag isn't a set in stone axiom for all humans. It's the type of things that signal problems for you, in this relationship.
If you dislike being around people who drink to the point of being "completely wasted", don't plan on a future with this dude, who has shown you that he sometimes drinks to the point of being completely wasted.
posted by Sara C. at 12:34 PM on November 19, 2014 [5 favorites]
If you dislike being around people who drink to the point of being "completely wasted", don't plan on a future with this dude, who has shown you that he sometimes drinks to the point of being completely wasted.
posted by Sara C. at 12:34 PM on November 19, 2014 [5 favorites]
Trust yourself. Fifth date? He's still on "good behavior." Showing up that drunk was a bad judgment call at best. You don't have to "wait and see" if you don't want to. I wouldn't want to. I've dated so many alcoholics it's almost laughable (except it's really more tragic than actually funny) and this type of thing would be a perfectly fine reason for me to tell myself "nope" - no matter what my friends were saying.
You don't owe him anything. You owe it to yourself to honor your feelings here and to walk away. Think of how strong you'll feel!
posted by sockermom at 12:43 PM on November 19, 2014 [2 favorites]
You don't owe him anything. You owe it to yourself to honor your feelings here and to walk away. Think of how strong you'll feel!
posted by sockermom at 12:43 PM on November 19, 2014 [2 favorites]
Your instincts are telling you that there's something to look out for here. Now, when those pop up, we aren't under some obligation to flee. It's totally OK to cut your losses and move on and it's totally OK to talk about how you felt when these things happened.
I could see myself doing some of the things he did here, but I often go months without even thinking about a drink. It's all somewhat situational and I could see how I might choose to behave differently if it mattered for my partner.
Right now, I believe in a second chance here. If he crosses the line now that he knows where there is one, then it's probably time to move on.
posted by advicepig at 12:44 PM on November 19, 2014
I could see myself doing some of the things he did here, but I often go months without even thinking about a drink. It's all somewhat situational and I could see how I might choose to behave differently if it mattered for my partner.
Right now, I believe in a second chance here. If he crosses the line now that he knows where there is one, then it's probably time to move on.
posted by advicepig at 12:44 PM on November 19, 2014
Re: your update. He's 30 years old? Then what you see now is what you get: this wasn't aberrant behavior on his part, this was his normal behavior. I'm not saying he's an alcoholic or anything, just that getting drunk like that is his normal. You say you don't want to be around him if this is his regular behavior..... like your therapist said, you can simply end it, you are not trapped.
posted by easily confused at 1:08 PM on November 19, 2014 [7 favorites]
posted by easily confused at 1:08 PM on November 19, 2014 [7 favorites]
he is 30 and I am 23
Nope; I revoke my previous comment. Deal breaker, imo. I'd cut him some slack if he were also 23 (learning that, as an adult, just because one can have ice cream for dinner but that one maybe shouldn't takes some time). But he's 30? Nope, no, nein, non, nyet. Sorry dude, your time to be a shitfaced douche-canoe has passed.
The age difference itself is on the edge of concerning for me - large differences in age come with certain power differentials that can be dangerous, especially for if the younger person is not a pro at listening to their inner voice and communicating their needs. Seven years isn't a big deal once you're both in your 30s, but 23-30 is a huge time of self-evolution and life experience. Of course, due to life circumstances you may be in roughly the same place (if, say, you're 2 years out of college and he's just a year or so out of a grad school program), so it would be less of an issue; but in general I'd say to try to date someone closer to your age.
posted by melissasaurus at 1:44 PM on November 19, 2014 [19 favorites]
Nope; I revoke my previous comment. Deal breaker, imo. I'd cut him some slack if he were also 23 (learning that, as an adult, just because one can have ice cream for dinner but that one maybe shouldn't takes some time). But he's 30? Nope, no, nein, non, nyet. Sorry dude, your time to be a shitfaced douche-canoe has passed.
The age difference itself is on the edge of concerning for me - large differences in age come with certain power differentials that can be dangerous, especially for if the younger person is not a pro at listening to their inner voice and communicating their needs. Seven years isn't a big deal once you're both in your 30s, but 23-30 is a huge time of self-evolution and life experience. Of course, due to life circumstances you may be in roughly the same place (if, say, you're 2 years out of college and he's just a year or so out of a grad school program), so it would be less of an issue; but in general I'd say to try to date someone closer to your age.
posted by melissasaurus at 1:44 PM on November 19, 2014 [19 favorites]
Wine with dinner, normal; having a glass or two while cooking, fine.
Regarding the rest, your friends' early-twenties binge drinking standards (which are typical for that age, ok, but usually temporary) do not apply. Being 30 years old and drinking until 4 am on weeknights and late into Sundays, showing up blottoed on your 5th date - this is a grown-ass man who is more committed to drinking and partying than he is to other things, it's how he lives, that is clear. You don't need more information to figure that out.
Your therapist is right, of course, it is possible to stop seeing him at any time. But it's harder to do that once you've become invested in the relationship, and also habituated to his behaviour. Better to get out early, imo.
There are decent, attractive, sensitive men who don't live this way.
posted by cotton dress sock at 2:50 PM on November 19, 2014 [3 favorites]
Regarding the rest, your friends' early-twenties binge drinking standards (which are typical for that age, ok, but usually temporary) do not apply. Being 30 years old and drinking until 4 am on weeknights and late into Sundays, showing up blottoed on your 5th date - this is a grown-ass man who is more committed to drinking and partying than he is to other things, it's how he lives, that is clear. You don't need more information to figure that out.
Your therapist is right, of course, it is possible to stop seeing him at any time. But it's harder to do that once you've become invested in the relationship, and also habituated to his behaviour. Better to get out early, imo.
There are decent, attractive, sensitive men who don't live this way.
posted by cotton dress sock at 2:50 PM on November 19, 2014 [3 favorites]
If he were 20-ish, I'd write this up to immaturity/inexperience with drinking.
At 30+, this is just how this guy is.
Without your history, it might be workable. With it, you're heading to co-dependency for sure. Trust your instincts on this one.
posted by empath at 3:09 PM on November 19, 2014 [3 favorites]
At 30+, this is just how this guy is.
Without your history, it might be workable. With it, you're heading to co-dependency for sure. Trust your instincts on this one.
posted by empath at 3:09 PM on November 19, 2014 [3 favorites]
My opinion:
30-years-old is too old to be out until 4am on a work night and too old to show up incoherently drunk after only four dates. You're still in the courting phase and this guy definitely isn't putting his best food forward, which makes me think he has a problem.
There is nothing wrong with the age difference per se, but if he has a drinking problem, he may be dating a younger person because often times young people don't have the life experience or confidence to say no thanks to this kind of relationship.
posted by Fairchild at 3:33 PM on November 19, 2014 [10 favorites]
30-years-old is too old to be out until 4am on a work night and too old to show up incoherently drunk after only four dates. You're still in the courting phase and this guy definitely isn't putting his best food forward, which makes me think he has a problem.
There is nothing wrong with the age difference per se, but if he has a drinking problem, he may be dating a younger person because often times young people don't have the life experience or confidence to say no thanks to this kind of relationship.
posted by Fairchild at 3:33 PM on November 19, 2014 [10 favorites]
Agreed that considering he's supposed to be on his best behavior right now this can only get worse. Follow your gut and move on.
posted by lillian.elmtree at 5:55 PM on November 19, 2014
posted by lillian.elmtree at 5:55 PM on November 19, 2014
I also grew up with a problem drinker in my family. A lot of growing up around a problem drinker (especially a parent) means slowly coming to terms with the fact that they're a drunk. It can take awhile, usually because the problem is well hidden and because you're often taught that you are overreacting.
I think as the child of alcoholic parents you can carry the burden of feeling that you are always overreacting to drinking because that is how you were taught to feel. Maybe sometimes you are. But usually, I find, when you instinctively feel that some kind of drinking behaviour is a red flag, it's based on your own experience. And it's usually accurate. A lot of people (particularly a younger crowd) do not know the signs, but you do. You know the difference between getting smashed one night and having a problem with drinking.
Honestly, I dated someone for three years who was at all periods a problem drinker. Early in the relationship, she crashed my place exactly like your date did. I wrote it off as a one-off. By year three, I was begging her to stop binge drinking. It was really sad for both of us and I wish I had listened to myself earlier in year 1 when the signs were unmistakably clear to me (though less so for my friends, as we were all early twenties and partied). Not to get all heavy on your fourth date here, but just I think a red flag is usually a red flag and I would proceed with caution.
posted by thelivingsea at 7:11 PM on November 19, 2014 [2 favorites]
I think as the child of alcoholic parents you can carry the burden of feeling that you are always overreacting to drinking because that is how you were taught to feel. Maybe sometimes you are. But usually, I find, when you instinctively feel that some kind of drinking behaviour is a red flag, it's based on your own experience. And it's usually accurate. A lot of people (particularly a younger crowd) do not know the signs, but you do. You know the difference between getting smashed one night and having a problem with drinking.
Honestly, I dated someone for three years who was at all periods a problem drinker. Early in the relationship, she crashed my place exactly like your date did. I wrote it off as a one-off. By year three, I was begging her to stop binge drinking. It was really sad for both of us and I wish I had listened to myself earlier in year 1 when the signs were unmistakably clear to me (though less so for my friends, as we were all early twenties and partied). Not to get all heavy on your fourth date here, but just I think a red flag is usually a red flag and I would proceed with caution.
posted by thelivingsea at 7:11 PM on November 19, 2014 [2 favorites]
It took me a while to phrase my answer to your question, because I think that his alcohol use is a side problem to another issue.
Generally speaking, society expects that most people make a good faith effort to take care of themselves. People may not always be in a position to do this in a healthy way, which is why it's important that we make an effort to help each other. However, its assumed that you will, at the very least, try not to throw your issues onto an unsuspecting or unwilling person. Especially if there is a way to handle your issues that wouldn’t be an imposition to others. This isn't just about being respectful, its about realizing that you aren't entitled to a position inside of someone else's life.
This is how I see your issue: he became so drunk that: "he was just a babbling, drunk, red-eyed mess. He could barely keep his eyes open." And who exactly was supposed to care for him in this state? Most reasonable people would stay in, or seek the help of a close friend, not put the burden on someone who is still functionally an acquaintance. Instead of crashing on his own couch, he came and crashed on yours, thereby putting the burden on you to deal with him.
No, he probably isn’t the worst guy who has done the worst thing ever, but he does seem to be taking great liberty with your good will. To add to the injury, he made the date that you two were supposed to share, all about caring for the results of follies that didn't even involve you. Are you sure that you want the kind of partner that, either due to entitlement or ignorance, imposes this kind of unsolicited responsibility on you?
posted by Shouraku at 8:06 PM on November 19, 2014 [6 favorites]
Generally speaking, society expects that most people make a good faith effort to take care of themselves. People may not always be in a position to do this in a healthy way, which is why it's important that we make an effort to help each other. However, its assumed that you will, at the very least, try not to throw your issues onto an unsuspecting or unwilling person. Especially if there is a way to handle your issues that wouldn’t be an imposition to others. This isn't just about being respectful, its about realizing that you aren't entitled to a position inside of someone else's life.
This is how I see your issue: he became so drunk that: "he was just a babbling, drunk, red-eyed mess. He could barely keep his eyes open." And who exactly was supposed to care for him in this state? Most reasonable people would stay in, or seek the help of a close friend, not put the burden on someone who is still functionally an acquaintance. Instead of crashing on his own couch, he came and crashed on yours, thereby putting the burden on you to deal with him.
No, he probably isn’t the worst guy who has done the worst thing ever, but he does seem to be taking great liberty with your good will. To add to the injury, he made the date that you two were supposed to share, all about caring for the results of follies that didn't even involve you. Are you sure that you want the kind of partner that, either due to entitlement or ignorance, imposes this kind of unsolicited responsibility on you?
posted by Shouraku at 8:06 PM on November 19, 2014 [6 favorites]
You're 23, I'm going to go ahead and assume that your friends are too. They very very likely do not have the life experience that you do in order the judge the real problems this guy may have. They probably just think he's fun rather than a boring 30-year-old. As per my previous comment, please disregard their opinions and listen to your own instincts.
posted by vignettist at 8:22 PM on November 19, 2014
posted by vignettist at 8:22 PM on November 19, 2014
Ok, i'm turning on my big high power IMAX projector here but,
he is 30 and I am 23
This is borderline behavior for another 23 year old, but it's kind of abjectly pathetic for a 30 year old. I'm 24, and most of my friends are 23-25. While this is pretty much all exactly the kind of stuff me and my friends would do occasionally, anyone i've met and especially the guys my friends have dated(and somehow it's always guys?) were just huge bags of NOPE.
Like, there's a reason he's not dating women his own age, and it's because he's not at that level of maturity and they wont put up with his crap.
Every guy i've known or met like that was really incredibly great at putting on a really strong showing as a first impression, and even getting beyond the 3rd date/hangout/etc while still going really strong and just seeming like a great dude... and then it wasn't so much that the cracks began to show as the entire thing fell apart.
I've made tons of jokes with friends about the elevator pitch nature of this, like they're great at seeming like just the perfect guy for the proverbial 15 minutes. But they're actually just fucking disasters.
Several of my friends have taken it to the next logical step beyond this and moved belongings into the guys house for staying over, etc, only to have it graduate from this to really fucked up weird shit and drama or having some super angry drunken freakout/breakdown or oh actually he does hardcore drugs totally flippantly or... just... something like, totally left field BAD like that.
Still acting like you're in your early 20s at thirty is a failure to launch thing, you're picking up on something here.
Pretty much, i think there's more than enough to walk away from here. Incompatible lifestyles, potential for this being the tip of the iceberg, it being a shitty thing to push yourself into something that REALLY feels wrong just because you think your feelings are "dumb" and unfounded, etc.
But just, really, every guy i've ever met or known who mysteriously always seemed to date younger women and would show up blubbering butthoused drunk that early on was just a huge trash can of bad news. I really wish several of my friends who have been through this(some multiple times, ugh) had accounts here, because they'd just say the same damn thing.
I just don't see the need to take this to it's logical, pathetic conclusion where you do end up hurt just to teach yourself to push through feeling weird about it. The fact that you are feeling weird now is a feature, not a bug.
posted by emptythought at 3:43 AM on November 20, 2014 [8 favorites]
he is 30 and I am 23
This is borderline behavior for another 23 year old, but it's kind of abjectly pathetic for a 30 year old. I'm 24, and most of my friends are 23-25. While this is pretty much all exactly the kind of stuff me and my friends would do occasionally, anyone i've met and especially the guys my friends have dated(and somehow it's always guys?) were just huge bags of NOPE.
Like, there's a reason he's not dating women his own age, and it's because he's not at that level of maturity and they wont put up with his crap.
Every guy i've known or met like that was really incredibly great at putting on a really strong showing as a first impression, and even getting beyond the 3rd date/hangout/etc while still going really strong and just seeming like a great dude... and then it wasn't so much that the cracks began to show as the entire thing fell apart.
I've made tons of jokes with friends about the elevator pitch nature of this, like they're great at seeming like just the perfect guy for the proverbial 15 minutes. But they're actually just fucking disasters.
Several of my friends have taken it to the next logical step beyond this and moved belongings into the guys house for staying over, etc, only to have it graduate from this to really fucked up weird shit and drama or having some super angry drunken freakout/breakdown or oh actually he does hardcore drugs totally flippantly or... just... something like, totally left field BAD like that.
Still acting like you're in your early 20s at thirty is a failure to launch thing, you're picking up on something here.
Pretty much, i think there's more than enough to walk away from here. Incompatible lifestyles, potential for this being the tip of the iceberg, it being a shitty thing to push yourself into something that REALLY feels wrong just because you think your feelings are "dumb" and unfounded, etc.
But just, really, every guy i've ever met or known who mysteriously always seemed to date younger women and would show up blubbering butthoused drunk that early on was just a huge trash can of bad news. I really wish several of my friends who have been through this(some multiple times, ugh) had accounts here, because they'd just say the same damn thing.
I just don't see the need to take this to it's logical, pathetic conclusion where you do end up hurt just to teach yourself to push through feeling weird about it. The fact that you are feeling weird now is a feature, not a bug.
posted by emptythought at 3:43 AM on November 20, 2014 [8 favorites]
It doesn't matter if he's "normal" or not. You don't need to manufacture reasons to disapprove of his while lifestyle. ("Social events centered around drinking". That's called a party. You're worried he had some wine while cooking? Stuff like that is why your friends are saying you are being judgmental.) I completely agree with your friends, that so far, this is just a guy who got too drunk one time.
Guess what? That doesn't matter. You're not compatible. You don't need to be "objectively" right in choosing who to date. Move on.
posted by spaltavian at 6:12 AM on November 20, 2014 [1 favorite]
Guess what? That doesn't matter. You're not compatible. You don't need to be "objectively" right in choosing who to date. Move on.
posted by spaltavian at 6:12 AM on November 20, 2014 [1 favorite]
I think there's a lot of ambiguity here. It's early days, and he may be a great guy who acted stupid or he may be a roaring drunk who can put on a good front. I don't really know, and neither does anybody else here.
I grew up with an alcoholic parent and I don't drink at all and am kind of weird and uptight about alcohol, but even so I'd be inclined to cut the guy some slack. The thing about drunk people is that they're drunk, and that makes them do really stupid things. This guy got drunk and did something stupid once, that you know of. This isn't a pattern of behavior, yet. This was one drunken mistake. If you know he does a lot of partying, I can see how that alarms you. But you don't know if he has a problem, yet.
I don't mean to make this sound easier than it is, but you should be honest with him. Tell him there is a history of alcohol abuse in your family, and it's something you're very worried about. Get it out there. Ask him about how often he drinks, and whether these drunken episodes are a regular thing. Let him know that if this is a problem, you won't stick around. And pay close attention to his response, looking for any signs he's being dishonest. Talking this out is probably your only option, other than just breaking up.
While you're sorting this out, I think you need to find a middle ground between totally giving your heart to this guy and shutting down emotionally. Try to put on the brakes a little and enjoy hanging out, with the knowledge that this may not work but you're giving it a go. This relationship has potential, but it could end at any time. That's where you're at, for now.
This is borderline behavior for another 23 year old, but it's kind of abjectly pathetic for a 30 year old.
30 is a lot younger than it sounds to some folks in their early twenties.
posted by Ursula Hitler at 6:15 AM on November 20, 2014 [2 favorites]
I grew up with an alcoholic parent and I don't drink at all and am kind of weird and uptight about alcohol, but even so I'd be inclined to cut the guy some slack. The thing about drunk people is that they're drunk, and that makes them do really stupid things. This guy got drunk and did something stupid once, that you know of. This isn't a pattern of behavior, yet. This was one drunken mistake. If you know he does a lot of partying, I can see how that alarms you. But you don't know if he has a problem, yet.
I don't mean to make this sound easier than it is, but you should be honest with him. Tell him there is a history of alcohol abuse in your family, and it's something you're very worried about. Get it out there. Ask him about how often he drinks, and whether these drunken episodes are a regular thing. Let him know that if this is a problem, you won't stick around. And pay close attention to his response, looking for any signs he's being dishonest. Talking this out is probably your only option, other than just breaking up.
While you're sorting this out, I think you need to find a middle ground between totally giving your heart to this guy and shutting down emotionally. Try to put on the brakes a little and enjoy hanging out, with the knowledge that this may not work but you're giving it a go. This relationship has potential, but it could end at any time. That's where you're at, for now.
This is borderline behavior for another 23 year old, but it's kind of abjectly pathetic for a 30 year old.
30 is a lot younger than it sounds to some folks in their early twenties.
posted by Ursula Hitler at 6:15 AM on November 20, 2014 [2 favorites]
I'm 33. Most of my friends are in the same age range, and many of them like to drink, pretty heavily. However, they do it on Fridays or Saturdays... in a group setting... with beds available... and not if they have work/kids/ other obligations to take priority first. A glass of wine after the monster-child goes to sleep? Ok. One while cooking? ok. A few close to too many at the party? Well, ok, but we are getting a lil old for this. Showing up at a friends house wasted to collapse on their couch? Better be an emergency.
posted by Jacen at 11:07 AM on November 20, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by Jacen at 11:07 AM on November 20, 2014 [2 favorites]
This thread is closed to new comments.
I would not have been made frightened or anxious by this guy's behavior but I still would have been super annoyed (and would almost certainly not have allowed him to sleep on the couch). I think it is 100% OK not to want to be in a relationship with someone who goes out until 4AM on a weeknight. Hang out with the guy if it's fun, but it doesn't sound like you two have very similar lifestyles.
posted by mskyle at 10:13 AM on November 19, 2014 [11 favorites]