Great industry but the people suck. Help?
November 14, 2014 11:43 PM Subscribe
I'm a university graduate with entirely separate vocational training in an industry that always interested me. I've since worked an entry-level position in said industry but I've discovered that the employers and employees alike are similar culturally in a way that I am not. If I were to draw a Venn diagram of my interests and theirs, it would look like this: O O.
I can't change everyone, so do I change myself or my job?
I've had a range of jobs (food service, construction, airline customer service, and other seasonal labour positions) which seemed to have fairly heterogeneous workforces, but the industry that I've spent the better part of $60,000 to $70,000 and several years of training for seems to have attracted a certain type of person. This was not apparent during school because the training can be used in different workplaces - I liked my classmates. I also went to university and enjoyed those people even more.
But these new people are often racist, ignorant (no fault of their own), simple, and all tend to value the same things and prefer to do the same activities. And they're not receptive to new ideas or even thinking marginally critically. I don't fit in, but I don't know whether or not I should try to.
If I can pre-emptively respond to possible answers...
"It's just a job, these people aren't meant to be your best friends."
Yes, but... I will spend many hours of my life interacting with them, talking with them, feeling obligated to be a part of the team after hours, and so on. Being an outsider for an entire career is not a pleasant prospect and the work is often in smaller and/or more isolated locations which means limited opportunities to meet other people. Also, hiring is word of mouth: you need friends to move up.
"Don't bother. Find a new job you enjoy. No sense in punishing yourself."
Yes, but... I like the work! It's unconventional, challenging, and I feel good when I do it. It's the people in it that make things difficult.
"You can't change people. Try and find a company that tends to be on the fringe of the mainstream."
Yes, but... the industry is small and clustered and globally distributed and it runs entirely on word of mouth for the most part. I would forever be relegated to a subset of companies in a world where rapid turnover is key to move your career forward."
I realise the job seems cryptic but trying to explain it in a non-abstract way probably wouldn't lead to better answers, just more questions.
I've had a range of jobs (food service, construction, airline customer service, and other seasonal labour positions) which seemed to have fairly heterogeneous workforces, but the industry that I've spent the better part of $60,000 to $70,000 and several years of training for seems to have attracted a certain type of person. This was not apparent during school because the training can be used in different workplaces - I liked my classmates. I also went to university and enjoyed those people even more.
But these new people are often racist, ignorant (no fault of their own), simple, and all tend to value the same things and prefer to do the same activities. And they're not receptive to new ideas or even thinking marginally critically. I don't fit in, but I don't know whether or not I should try to.
If I can pre-emptively respond to possible answers...
"It's just a job, these people aren't meant to be your best friends."
Yes, but... I will spend many hours of my life interacting with them, talking with them, feeling obligated to be a part of the team after hours, and so on. Being an outsider for an entire career is not a pleasant prospect and the work is often in smaller and/or more isolated locations which means limited opportunities to meet other people. Also, hiring is word of mouth: you need friends to move up.
"Don't bother. Find a new job you enjoy. No sense in punishing yourself."
Yes, but... I like the work! It's unconventional, challenging, and I feel good when I do it. It's the people in it that make things difficult.
"You can't change people. Try and find a company that tends to be on the fringe of the mainstream."
Yes, but... the industry is small and clustered and globally distributed and it runs entirely on word of mouth for the most part. I would forever be relegated to a subset of companies in a world where rapid turnover is key to move your career forward."
I realise the job seems cryptic but trying to explain it in a non-abstract way probably wouldn't lead to better answers, just more questions.
Are you sure this industry is so homogeneous as you describe? It's easy to let a selection color your impression of everyone. Perhaps there are a couple others who think the way you do as well, but they've put on a mask to make things better.
You're still in the entry level position after all. I doubt you have gotten to know much about *everyone* in the industry. Stay with it, work with the constraints, and see where it takes you.
posted by movablesingularity at 2:08 AM on November 15, 2014 [1 favorite]
You're still in the entry level position after all. I doubt you have gotten to know much about *everyone* in the industry. Stay with it, work with the constraints, and see where it takes you.
posted by movablesingularity at 2:08 AM on November 15, 2014 [1 favorite]
Describing it might lead to better answers because as it stands things don't really add up, although it's 100% possible I'm reading your question wrong because I am a bit confused
-your job is challenging and unconventional but your coworkers and everyone else in the industry...are all simple bigoted one-size-fits -all ignoramuses?
-you spent a ton of money and time training for your career but everyone else in it is dumb?
Is it that they have a very different role from you and you just sort of work alongside them? Or are these people in a similar position to you?
you've answered a lot of the more reasonable responses to your question. I would suggest that despite your differences you try to relate to them anyway. Tolerate them (unless they are truly outwardly racist/horrible, then report them to HR) and do your job as well as you can. For instance, if they don't think critically but you can, continue doing that. Often in Sometimes life we just have to deal with people with whom we have zero overlapping interests/traits. Unless they are straight up Bad People, that doesn't mean you still can't get on with them decently enough to benefit your career.
posted by hejrat at 2:09 AM on November 15, 2014 [2 favorites]
-your job is challenging and unconventional but your coworkers and everyone else in the industry...are all simple bigoted one-size-fits -all ignoramuses?
-you spent a ton of money and time training for your career but everyone else in it is dumb?
Is it that they have a very different role from you and you just sort of work alongside them? Or are these people in a similar position to you?
you've answered a lot of the more reasonable responses to your question. I would suggest that despite your differences you try to relate to them anyway. Tolerate them (unless they are truly outwardly racist/horrible, then report them to HR) and do your job as well as you can. For instance, if they don't think critically but you can, continue doing that. Often in Sometimes life we just have to deal with people with whom we have zero overlapping interests/traits. Unless they are straight up Bad People, that doesn't mean you still can't get on with them decently enough to benefit your career.
posted by hejrat at 2:09 AM on November 15, 2014 [2 favorites]
Can you work for the same industry at a different location? Social attitudes and politics can vary widely from city to city.
Or even a different branch of the same company, or a job with a competitor.
I'm not sure where the culture comes from, but I don't think it comes from the job. (Unless the job is in itself cultural... like working for a church or a political party.)
posted by mmoncur at 2:21 AM on November 15, 2014
Or even a different branch of the same company, or a job with a competitor.
I'm not sure where the culture comes from, but I don't think it comes from the job. (Unless the job is in itself cultural... like working for a church or a political party.)
posted by mmoncur at 2:21 AM on November 15, 2014
Response by poster: It's not homogeneous to an extreme extent, but it is by far the most compared to all other jobs I've worked. Homogeneous enough that I couldn't figure it out and came here.
Many of the answers also imply positions of power or management but this is mostly a skilled labour environment. However: "Perhaps there are a couple others who think the way you do as well, but they've put on a mask to make things better."
I think you may be right about that and I overlooked it before. I do recall that when I was with just one or two people it was much better. Egos die down and people actually behave like themselves compared to when there's a larger group.
"The people whose company you enjoyed back in school might be present in the higher levels of the industry, and you'll be able to find your own people by climbing up."
This is my other way out. A move laterally, though it's another start from the bottom and another $10,000 to train up.
Thank you for the answers so far. Unless there any aviation experts here, I'll leave things vague.
posted by thethirdoption at 3:00 AM on November 15, 2014
Many of the answers also imply positions of power or management but this is mostly a skilled labour environment. However: "Perhaps there are a couple others who think the way you do as well, but they've put on a mask to make things better."
I think you may be right about that and I overlooked it before. I do recall that when I was with just one or two people it was much better. Egos die down and people actually behave like themselves compared to when there's a larger group.
"The people whose company you enjoyed back in school might be present in the higher levels of the industry, and you'll be able to find your own people by climbing up."
This is my other way out. A move laterally, though it's another start from the bottom and another $10,000 to train up.
Thank you for the answers so far. Unless there any aviation experts here, I'll leave things vague.
posted by thethirdoption at 3:00 AM on November 15, 2014
Hmmm, can kind of relate to this as kind of contrary to my assumptions about my professional training where I was expecting to find loads of open minded people who'd lived a bit, I found the over privileged and under-aware and 2 I wanted to hang out with.. after a lot of searching!! (one of whom later turned out to have a raging and dangerous personality disorder). It was very tough. The work itself (for me) had different specialities if you will and in time I was able to gravitate more to areas where I could find people I could get along with (I like to think I'm fairly easy to get along with).
For various reasons later I ended up working on a more temp basis. I don't know if this might be an option for you (sounds possibly not?) but I did find this helped with that.. if a place really really sucks (and yeah the people and culture are the biggest factors for a lot of us) I'm generally off quite soon. Be honest with yourself about the limits of what you can stand.
That said, there's still scope to be resourceful. I can find a bit of common ground with a lot of people who otherwise aren't my cup of tea. This helps a little. There is likely to be some common ground.. you are all in the same place and sharing time and experience. Maybe some of them have something to teach you about something you are marginally interested in?
I'm with you re: the shitty racist attitudes etc.. but remember people have had different histories. My background has been culturally mixed. But I know for a lot of people in the UK the closest they have experienced to cultural mix is watching some shit soap. This really is true. They have walked a totally different path to me. I try to cut a bit of slack for this and weave my take on things into chats in a non confrontational way where possible.. cos I know I canget passionate and wound up, not saying that has to be a bad thing but I have to work with these people... and have to make it workable too.
Maintain your ourside relationships ofcourse, you may be needing them more than usual to hold onto your sense of self. If all else fails take breaks outside your workplace for headspace.
posted by tanktop at 5:37 AM on November 15, 2014
For various reasons later I ended up working on a more temp basis. I don't know if this might be an option for you (sounds possibly not?) but I did find this helped with that.. if a place really really sucks (and yeah the people and culture are the biggest factors for a lot of us) I'm generally off quite soon. Be honest with yourself about the limits of what you can stand.
That said, there's still scope to be resourceful. I can find a bit of common ground with a lot of people who otherwise aren't my cup of tea. This helps a little. There is likely to be some common ground.. you are all in the same place and sharing time and experience. Maybe some of them have something to teach you about something you are marginally interested in?
I'm with you re: the shitty racist attitudes etc.. but remember people have had different histories. My background has been culturally mixed. But I know for a lot of people in the UK the closest they have experienced to cultural mix is watching some shit soap. This really is true. They have walked a totally different path to me. I try to cut a bit of slack for this and weave my take on things into chats in a non confrontational way where possible.. cos I know I canget passionate and wound up, not saying that has to be a bad thing but I have to work with these people... and have to make it workable too.
Maintain your ourside relationships ofcourse, you may be needing them more than usual to hold onto your sense of self. If all else fails take breaks outside your workplace for headspace.
posted by tanktop at 5:37 AM on November 15, 2014
I really hope you are not a cop. 😃
But taking US policing as a model, its apparent that there are departments that meet your description, but there are many that don't. I'm wondering if a change of venue is what you need, ideally to a city where the cultural norms are different.
posted by SemiSalt at 5:49 AM on November 15, 2014
But taking US policing as a model, its apparent that there are departments that meet your description, but there are many that don't. I'm wondering if a change of venue is what you need, ideally to a city where the cultural norms are different.
posted by SemiSalt at 5:49 AM on November 15, 2014
I was in a work situation where I was the only college grad, and my coworkers were homogeneously mean about that and intent on behaving opposite of any of my "college" behaviors. I defended the value of education, and they dug in harder, and I started counting the days until I could work somewhere else, with other college grads.
Just before I got out, I ended up having some real talk with one coworker (echoing the idea of one or two at a time instead of the big group), who admitted that she was jealous that I'd had the opportunity for college. Which was news to me, because previously she had been saying my degree was worthless and made me worse at the job we were doing, etc. Lightbulb! She had been protesting too much all along. That was when I realized that defending the value of my degree and the importance of critical thinking had been exactly the wrong approach. I needed to downplay its importance, show that it didn't make me think I was better than them, and look for qualities that I could genuinely appreciate about my coworkers.
It was still for the best that I ended up elsewhere, but yeah, in retrospect I should have recognized my privilege and made more of an effort to connect while the job lasted.
posted by Bentobox Humperdinck at 6:16 AM on November 15, 2014 [1 favorite]
Just before I got out, I ended up having some real talk with one coworker (echoing the idea of one or two at a time instead of the big group), who admitted that she was jealous that I'd had the opportunity for college. Which was news to me, because previously she had been saying my degree was worthless and made me worse at the job we were doing, etc. Lightbulb! She had been protesting too much all along. That was when I realized that defending the value of my degree and the importance of critical thinking had been exactly the wrong approach. I needed to downplay its importance, show that it didn't make me think I was better than them, and look for qualities that I could genuinely appreciate about my coworkers.
It was still for the best that I ended up elsewhere, but yeah, in retrospect I should have recognized my privilege and made more of an effort to connect while the job lasted.
posted by Bentobox Humperdinck at 6:16 AM on November 15, 2014 [1 favorite]
Best answer: In my field, the entire industry is relatively mixed (though with a pronounced bias towards white guys overall), but areas within it can be much less so, and when you get to the level of a specific company or a specific agency office, it can be extremely homogenous. So you can likely change your immediate surroundings without changing fields just by switching companies or (if this is an option in your field) moving between public and private sectors, though you may need to refocus your skillset slightly to do so.
It was still for the best that I ended up elsewhere, but yeah, in retrospect I should have recognized my privilege and made more of an effort to connect while it lasted.
I have a couple of degrees from Fancypants U; a lot of the people I work with went to the local campus of the School of Hard Knocks and are legitimately proud of graduating from high school. It's very much on me to not be an asshole about that and to recognize that people will have feelings about it that are neither my fault nor in my immediate ability to address. If that's a factor at all in your situation (as in, you got the university training and coworkers learned on the job, or if the likely trajectory is that in ten years you will be in a management/supervisory position and your coworkers will not), that might be playing out in ways that aren't immediately apparent -- it's not usually as simple as being called "College Boy" at lunchtime, say.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:27 AM on November 15, 2014 [1 favorite]
It was still for the best that I ended up elsewhere, but yeah, in retrospect I should have recognized my privilege and made more of an effort to connect while it lasted.
I have a couple of degrees from Fancypants U; a lot of the people I work with went to the local campus of the School of Hard Knocks and are legitimately proud of graduating from high school. It's very much on me to not be an asshole about that and to recognize that people will have feelings about it that are neither my fault nor in my immediate ability to address. If that's a factor at all in your situation (as in, you got the university training and coworkers learned on the job, or if the likely trajectory is that in ten years you will be in a management/supervisory position and your coworkers will not), that might be playing out in ways that aren't immediately apparent -- it's not usually as simple as being called "College Boy" at lunchtime, say.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:27 AM on November 15, 2014 [1 favorite]
I realise the job seems cryptic but trying to explain it in a non-abstract way probably wouldn't lead to better answers, just more questions.
More questions often do lead to better answers, though. More questions clarify the situation for the people who are trying to answer, and force you to look more critically at your question. What you've done here is given yourself an "out." You've said there's a problem within this industry, what should I do? And then preemptively dismissed several potentially helpful discussions. Without naming the industry or the work that you do, you are able to say "that may work in most industries but it won't work in my secret snowflake industry."
Unless there any aviation experts here, I'll leave things vague.
Well, there are. There are thousands of active members on this site, and some of them are aviation experts. You can add an aviation tag to get their attention. Give some examples, describe a typical day, etc.
posted by headnsouth at 6:31 AM on November 15, 2014 [1 favorite]
More questions often do lead to better answers, though. More questions clarify the situation for the people who are trying to answer, and force you to look more critically at your question. What you've done here is given yourself an "out." You've said there's a problem within this industry, what should I do? And then preemptively dismissed several potentially helpful discussions. Without naming the industry or the work that you do, you are able to say "that may work in most industries but it won't work in my secret snowflake industry."
Unless there any aviation experts here, I'll leave things vague.
Well, there are. There are thousands of active members on this site, and some of them are aviation experts. You can add an aviation tag to get their attention. Give some examples, describe a typical day, etc.
posted by headnsouth at 6:31 AM on November 15, 2014 [1 favorite]
Best answer: Sorry pal, but what you have here is a grown-up life situation on your hand. :) It's a part of life. Part of being a grown up is realizing that you Don't get to have everything you want. Either you quit to find a job that you may or may not hate which attracts the type of personality you like, or you quit this job you like and deal with the personality types you don't like. You seem to have let your wants and desires push you into a little teeny tiny corner that doesn't allow for much variety. Anything NOT in your list of wants is now perceived by you as some huge problem that needs to be fixed. It is unlikely you will get everything you want out of a job. Few people do. There are going to be things you don't like that you will have to accept should you decide to stay.
I've worked in the Staffing agency for a long while now and that's primarily a sales industry in many ways so the characters attracted to it can be... shall we say- Shady characters. Some openly racist, some sexist, some who are lying liars who lie...A lot of wheeling and dealing and stealing of candidates and money and doing it while smiling to your face while stabbing you in the back as you walk away. Some offices are worse than others, but I've never been in a commision-based sales industry that didn't have plenty of these types of people. It's just something I have to deal with if I want to remain in the industry. I just stick to my work.
If you try to find another position in the same field you MIGHT have a different experience despite the pull of a certain type of character because different managers and supervisors foster and encourage different types of environments. If you feel that people are acting ignorantly etc, there is a good chance that management is in some way fostering that attitude. So perhaps you can keep your eyes open and ask around for a place where management discourages certain behaviors. But even then- managers, supervisors and coworkers leave all the time... and they can easily be replaced by opposite personalities. It's not like you find a job with people you like and you're set for life. You may just have to ease up on yourself for a bit and once you've had a break of thinking about this, maybe you can revisit your concern by asking yourself whether you can live with some of the things that aren't perfect. If there are certain things that you know you absolutely cannot live with, then there's no harm in looking for a new job while deciding later whether or not to actually leave.
posted by rancher at 8:35 AM on November 15, 2014 [1 favorite]
I've worked in the Staffing agency for a long while now and that's primarily a sales industry in many ways so the characters attracted to it can be... shall we say- Shady characters. Some openly racist, some sexist, some who are lying liars who lie...A lot of wheeling and dealing and stealing of candidates and money and doing it while smiling to your face while stabbing you in the back as you walk away. Some offices are worse than others, but I've never been in a commision-based sales industry that didn't have plenty of these types of people. It's just something I have to deal with if I want to remain in the industry. I just stick to my work.
If you try to find another position in the same field you MIGHT have a different experience despite the pull of a certain type of character because different managers and supervisors foster and encourage different types of environments. If you feel that people are acting ignorantly etc, there is a good chance that management is in some way fostering that attitude. So perhaps you can keep your eyes open and ask around for a place where management discourages certain behaviors. But even then- managers, supervisors and coworkers leave all the time... and they can easily be replaced by opposite personalities. It's not like you find a job with people you like and you're set for life. You may just have to ease up on yourself for a bit and once you've had a break of thinking about this, maybe you can revisit your concern by asking yourself whether you can live with some of the things that aren't perfect. If there are certain things that you know you absolutely cannot live with, then there's no harm in looking for a new job while deciding later whether or not to actually leave.
posted by rancher at 8:35 AM on November 15, 2014 [1 favorite]
It's quite possible that it isn't the industry itself that's inherently that way, but just that industry IN THAT PARTICULAR LOCALE that's that way. So you may be able to find perfectly lovely people in your industry in another city -- is there any way you can investigate that?
posted by Jacqueline at 1:01 AM on November 16, 2014
posted by Jacqueline at 1:01 AM on November 16, 2014
Response by poster: Thanks to everyone who contributed. Some of the answers will certainly help day-to-day and a few answers have reminded me of the bigger picture. I'll continue to press on with a different mindset and see how that goes!
posted by thethirdoption at 12:45 PM on February 17, 2015
posted by thethirdoption at 12:45 PM on February 17, 2015
This thread is closed to new comments.
Study the people as though you are a social scientist. Direct your study with an eye to a master plan in which they are your future employees and you are learning how to utilize them effectively. Simple, ignorant, conservative, consistent, uncritical, these are all qualities that can be very useful in employees if you respect and work within the constrains and opportunities thus presented. E.g., if you make good decisions visibly and consistently, you can earn their loyalty and they will reliably follow your orders.
Create a professional persona, a mask you wear, comfortable for you, that will let you fit in with the foremast jacks.
Work out the power structure all the way up. Identify the people whose help you'll need to move up, and then do favors for them. Exercise your creativity in spotting possible favors, which will likely be unusual, more challenging work. Exercise your social skills; glad-hand. The idea is to mark yourself as a "comer" in the eyes of decisionmakers, so that when a higher-level position opens up, word'll be out about you, and you'll get the nod.
The people whose company you enjoyed back in school might be present in the higher levels of the industry, and you'll be able to find your own people by climbing up.
I personally would not care to do all this, but it's a possible approach.
posted by kadonoishi at 2:05 AM on November 15, 2014 [14 favorites]