How to write olde English without being annoying
November 13, 2014 11:34 AM Subscribe
In a Swords and Sorcery middle grade children's book set in the medieval times I want to give a feeling of old English without the dense cryptic reality of old English. What makes for a good balance of thee and thous, doth and dosts?
My book has a tongue-in-cheek feel to it as well as permitting anachronisms: e.g., balloons are handed out to the crowd during an execution. There is even an air of "this is cheap imitation of medieval reality" to the book, but I don't want that to be an excuse for sloppiness.
All of my concerns pertain to the characters' dialogue and various pieces of writing encountered, such as instructions. The story itself is not told in the narrative voice of the times.
#1. Although it makes for a generally good suggestion, I don't want to eliminate the thees and thous altogether. A sign at the entrance to a park that says "Thou Art Here" is part of the flavor of the book. "Come with me if thou seekest to live" is intended as a whimsical variation of "Come with me if you want to live," which is, well, cliche.
#2. Thou (the familiar form of you) does not look good without modifying the verb. "Thou are here," doesn't feel right. Neither does "Thou know me." It feels like I need, thou knowest me. And if I go with thou knowest, don't I have to use "he knoweth me?"
#3. Should I try to settle for a select few words and keep them consistent? Thou, thee, doth, dost, hath, hast, thy, thine, ye and the occasional methinks and drop all others? This is my preference, although it breaks grammar rules.
#4. Or, do I need to make all changes in verb tenses?
#5. I don't want to break the spell of the book by annoying those who notice the inconsistency in the verbiage and I don't want to bog down the book with too many medieval-isms. Have you seen some author who obtains a good balance?
#6. And, finally, yes, I do realize medieval speak is a whole lot more than these few words. I am trying to structure sentences and non-archaic words to reflect that.
I have a feeling that these sorts of grammatical matters and attendant inaccuracies can trigger some reader's pet peeves like any sort of poorly written dialect, or even the way well-written dialect becomes too showy and writerly.
My book has a tongue-in-cheek feel to it as well as permitting anachronisms: e.g., balloons are handed out to the crowd during an execution. There is even an air of "this is cheap imitation of medieval reality" to the book, but I don't want that to be an excuse for sloppiness.
All of my concerns pertain to the characters' dialogue and various pieces of writing encountered, such as instructions. The story itself is not told in the narrative voice of the times.
#1. Although it makes for a generally good suggestion, I don't want to eliminate the thees and thous altogether. A sign at the entrance to a park that says "Thou Art Here" is part of the flavor of the book. "Come with me if thou seekest to live" is intended as a whimsical variation of "Come with me if you want to live," which is, well, cliche.
#2. Thou (the familiar form of you) does not look good without modifying the verb. "Thou are here," doesn't feel right. Neither does "Thou know me." It feels like I need, thou knowest me. And if I go with thou knowest, don't I have to use "he knoweth me?"
#3. Should I try to settle for a select few words and keep them consistent? Thou, thee, doth, dost, hath, hast, thy, thine, ye and the occasional methinks and drop all others? This is my preference, although it breaks grammar rules.
#4. Or, do I need to make all changes in verb tenses?
#5. I don't want to break the spell of the book by annoying those who notice the inconsistency in the verbiage and I don't want to bog down the book with too many medieval-isms. Have you seen some author who obtains a good balance?
#6. And, finally, yes, I do realize medieval speak is a whole lot more than these few words. I am trying to structure sentences and non-archaic words to reflect that.
I have a feeling that these sorts of grammatical matters and attendant inaccuracies can trigger some reader's pet peeves like any sort of poorly written dialect, or even the way well-written dialect becomes too showy and writerly.
Just remember that thee and thou are informal, not formal (the formal is you). That's why the Quakers used "plain speech" - all people were Friends, and therefore you spoke informally.
So if you have kings and princes and such, they're going to use the informal with their subordinates, and everyone else is going to use the formal when speaking to them. Etc, etc.
posted by annathea at 11:51 AM on November 13, 2014 [2 favorites]
So if you have kings and princes and such, they're going to use the informal with their subordinates, and everyone else is going to use the formal when speaking to them. Etc, etc.
posted by annathea at 11:51 AM on November 13, 2014 [2 favorites]
Best answer: You're not looking for Old English, or even Middle English, you're looking for archaic Modern English, which starts roughly in the 1500s. Older than that and your readers won't be able to parse the weird Danish and Old French in it.
"Thou" is second-person familiar or intimate and it conjugates with an (e)st suffix, ergo "Thou art here" or "Thou drovest here."
The King James bible will be your biggest asset here, and you might also want to look up a Shakespeare's Language book (there are a bunch of them, and I can't remember which one my prof used, I don't doubt people will be along with recs soon).
The real secret to stuff like this is to read from the approximate time period. That will give you a much better sense of what works and what doesn't, and there's no real substitute for doing that kind of research for something you're writing.
posted by klangklangston at 11:54 AM on November 13, 2014 [5 favorites]
"Thou" is second-person familiar or intimate and it conjugates with an (e)st suffix, ergo "Thou art here" or "Thou drovest here."
The King James bible will be your biggest asset here, and you might also want to look up a Shakespeare's Language book (there are a bunch of them, and I can't remember which one my prof used, I don't doubt people will be along with recs soon).
The real secret to stuff like this is to read from the approximate time period. That will give you a much better sense of what works and what doesn't, and there's no real substitute for doing that kind of research for something you're writing.
posted by klangklangston at 11:54 AM on November 13, 2014 [5 favorites]
Response by poster: Honestly, it will have to be a mismatched English. The time is about 1400 but they cannot talk like that or no one will understand them.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 12:05 PM on November 13, 2014
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 12:05 PM on November 13, 2014
I think sticking with a couple of archaic simple pronouns like thou and ye is fine (though personally as a reader I would find it tedious over an entire book). I think in general, rather than duplicating verb tenses and pronouns, though, you are better off using a few alternative/archaic common nouns or verbs every so often (as long as they will still be understandable to a modern reader) to give a feeling of "ye olde" English without becoming too inconsistent/confusing/cloying. For example, a "twattler," meaning a gossip or fussy chatterbox. This seems like the most common approach in the fiction I'm familiar with.
posted by AndrewInDC at 12:19 PM on November 13, 2014
posted by AndrewInDC at 12:19 PM on November 13, 2014
What AndrewInDC said. Ignore the Quakers and the Bible; just drop in some "thou -est" and "he -eth" and a few archaic words. Keep it simple, don't overdo it. But for god's sake don't mix and match; I really really hate seeing monstrosities like "thou goeth" in this sort of thing.
posted by languagehat at 12:22 PM on November 13, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by languagehat at 12:22 PM on November 13, 2014 [1 favorite]
If you're doing this, do it right, or at least vaguely right-ish.
The main thing that takes me out of Ye Olde Englisshhee is that people tend to bastardize it really badly.
Thee and thou are informal pronouns. (They correspond to "tu" as opposed to "vous" or "usted" in Romance languages.) So you wouldn't ever say, "Sire, thy glory is truly great!" or whatever. Because you'd never call your lord "thou". That would be like calling your boss "kiddo" nowadays.
Similarly, thee/thou/thy/thine operate according to grammatical rules. If you're not dead certain about what they are, don't just throw them around interchangeably. The same is true for knoweth/knowest, as you mention. Either do the research and use these verb conjugations correctly, or leave it.
Ye means "the", not "you". It is pronounced "the". Unless you're using some kind of weird blackletter typeface that incorporates thorns and eths and the like, please skip that entirely. It might be fun to use the thorn for other instances of "th", though, if you are playing around with fun typography.
Instead of getting bogged down in pronouns and verb tenses, it might be easier to make a list of ordinary vocabulary words with a "medieval" feel and then make a point of using them. Words like "verily", "methinks"/"methinketh", "perchance", "anon", "unto" etc.
I highly recommend the Chaucer Doth Tweet account for inspiration, though I think you'll want to avoid the wild spellings. You might also find inspiration in the Bayeux Tapestry memes that tend to float around, though I've seen a lot of very wrong grammar/usage in them.
posted by Sara C. at 12:26 PM on November 13, 2014 [4 favorites]
The main thing that takes me out of Ye Olde Englisshhee is that people tend to bastardize it really badly.
Thee and thou are informal pronouns. (They correspond to "tu" as opposed to "vous" or "usted" in Romance languages.) So you wouldn't ever say, "Sire, thy glory is truly great!" or whatever. Because you'd never call your lord "thou". That would be like calling your boss "kiddo" nowadays.
Similarly, thee/thou/thy/thine operate according to grammatical rules. If you're not dead certain about what they are, don't just throw them around interchangeably. The same is true for knoweth/knowest, as you mention. Either do the research and use these verb conjugations correctly, or leave it.
Ye means "the", not "you". It is pronounced "the". Unless you're using some kind of weird blackletter typeface that incorporates thorns and eths and the like, please skip that entirely. It might be fun to use the thorn for other instances of "th", though, if you are playing around with fun typography.
Instead of getting bogged down in pronouns and verb tenses, it might be easier to make a list of ordinary vocabulary words with a "medieval" feel and then make a point of using them. Words like "verily", "methinks"/"methinketh", "perchance", "anon", "unto" etc.
I highly recommend the Chaucer Doth Tweet account for inspiration, though I think you'll want to avoid the wild spellings. You might also find inspiration in the Bayeux Tapestry memes that tend to float around, though I've seen a lot of very wrong grammar/usage in them.
posted by Sara C. at 12:26 PM on November 13, 2014 [4 favorites]
Personally I would find even just using "ye", "thou", "-est" for all the dialogue of the book quite tedious and annoying, especially if I was a kid. How about just using those for written signs and formal speech, or the speech of older/high status characters? For everyone else speaking informally, just sprinkle a couple of "prithees" and archaic terms in.
posted by dontjumplarry at 12:28 PM on November 13, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by dontjumplarry at 12:28 PM on November 13, 2014 [2 favorites]
>Ye means "the", not "you". It is pronounced "the". Unless you're using some kind of weird blackletter typeface that incorporates thorns and eths and the like, please skip that entirely. It might be fun to use the thorn for other instances of "th", though, if you are playing around with fun typography.
Ye usually means "you." Source: KJV Bible and the complete works of Shakespeare. (Unless I'm misunderstanding you?)
posted by BurntHombre at 1:24 PM on November 13, 2014 [1 favorite]
Ye usually means "you." Source: KJV Bible and the complete works of Shakespeare. (Unless I'm misunderstanding you?)
posted by BurntHombre at 1:24 PM on November 13, 2014 [1 favorite]
"Hear ye, hear ye," is ye=you.
"Ye Olde Numbles Shoppe" is ye=the (the y was substituted for the thorn character because printing shops didn't have it).
posted by klangklangston at 1:29 PM on November 13, 2014 [2 favorites]
"Ye Olde Numbles Shoppe" is ye=the (the y was substituted for the thorn character because printing shops didn't have it).
posted by klangklangston at 1:29 PM on November 13, 2014 [2 favorites]
#5. I don't want to break the spell of the book by annoying those who notice the inconsistency in the verbiage and I don't want to bog down the book with too many medieval-isms. Have you seen some author who obtains a good balance?
Yes, Terry Pratchett when the wizards summon Death. I like the juxtaposition of formal language surrounding the spell vs. the more casual conversation that evolves once Death appears. Same thing with discussions of police work (Carrot's by-the-book quoting vs. Nobbby's more earthy interpretations.) There's something funny about precise high speech for formal occasions juxtaposed with contemporary slang going on backstage/behind the speaker's back/off-mic.
posted by MonkeyToes at 3:23 PM on November 13, 2014
Yes, Terry Pratchett when the wizards summon Death. I like the juxtaposition of formal language surrounding the spell vs. the more casual conversation that evolves once Death appears. Same thing with discussions of police work (Carrot's by-the-book quoting vs. Nobbby's more earthy interpretations.) There's something funny about precise high speech for formal occasions juxtaposed with contemporary slang going on backstage/behind the speaker's back/off-mic.
posted by MonkeyToes at 3:23 PM on November 13, 2014
I think you can go read some fantasy -- David Eddings or something -- and do what they do. That's probably what readers will expect.
posted by J. Wilson at 3:49 PM on November 13, 2014
posted by J. Wilson at 3:49 PM on November 13, 2014
"Ye" is also sometimes used to represent an Early Modern English form of the word "the" (traditionally pronounced /ðiː/), such as in "Ye Olde Shoppe". In this transcription the letter which resembles a 'Y' is actually a thorn (þ), the predecessor to the modern digraph "th". The word "The" was thus written Þe. Medieval printing presses did not contain the letter thorn, so the letter y was substituted owing to its similarity with some medieval scripts, especially later ones. This orthography has sometimes led speakers of Modern English to pronounce "ye" as /ji:/.posted by Fukiyama at 4:18 PM on November 13, 2014 [1 favorite]
Short words. Churchill had a famous line about old words being good and short old words being better.
Have a look at this bit of Old English vocab and consider what it would be in a word-for-word translation:
An mann hæfde docgan. His hund wæs blæc and æc wæs eald. Se docga æt ban. Se mann æt flæsc. tha ban wæron heard and thæt flæsc wæs god. Se hund dranc wæter ac se mann dranc win. se mann weox thynne and se docga weox great. Sona wæs se hund dead ac se mann is nu mid us. Hwæt leorniath we fram thissum? Mann lifeth lengest the ne drincth wæter.
(Note that every word of the above survives into modern English, although weox -- "wax" in the sense of "to grow" -- is less common than it once was. )
posted by ricochet biscuit at 4:20 PM on November 13, 2014 [2 favorites]
Have a look at this bit of Old English vocab and consider what it would be in a word-for-word translation:
An mann hæfde docgan. His hund wæs blæc and æc wæs eald. Se docga æt ban. Se mann æt flæsc. tha ban wæron heard and thæt flæsc wæs god. Se hund dranc wæter ac se mann dranc win. se mann weox thynne and se docga weox great. Sona wæs se hund dead ac se mann is nu mid us. Hwæt leorniath we fram thissum? Mann lifeth lengest the ne drincth wæter.
(Note that every word of the above survives into modern English, although weox -- "wax" in the sense of "to grow" -- is less common than it once was. )
posted by ricochet biscuit at 4:20 PM on November 13, 2014 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: It will be hard to choose a best answer. I think a few of these have the clues. I might try balancing between formal pronouncements and signs and kill it completely from casual dialogue. Maybe I can have a character explicitly state that early on: drop the thee and thous, it's just us now.
I suppose there are two deeper motives for why I wrote this question. One is, I'm one of those people who don't like too many thees and thous defining older English. (Although this may be because I've seen it misused.) The other is, someone else told me she felt pretty much the same. I wanted to see if it was a common feeling.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 4:39 PM on November 13, 2014
I suppose there are two deeper motives for why I wrote this question. One is, I'm one of those people who don't like too many thees and thous defining older English. (Although this may be because I've seen it misused.) The other is, someone else told me she felt pretty much the same. I wanted to see if it was a common feeling.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 4:39 PM on November 13, 2014
drop the thee and thous, it's just us now.
This doesn't make any sense, as thee and thou are informal "just us" words.
posted by Sara C. at 5:08 PM on November 13, 2014 [3 favorites]
This doesn't make any sense, as thee and thou are informal "just us" words.
posted by Sara C. at 5:08 PM on November 13, 2014 [3 favorites]
> Thee and thou are informal pronouns. (They correspond to "tu" as opposed to "vous" or "usted" in Romance languages.) So you wouldn't ever say, "Sire, thy glory is truly great!" or whatever. Because you'd never call your lord "thou". That would be like calling your boss "kiddo" nowadays.
This is not true. Thou/thee began as the (only) singular second-person pronoun and ye/you as the corresponding plural. After the Norman Conquest, to quote the OED (updated 2012), "use of historically plural forms with singular reference, for reasons of showing respect, deference, or formality, is found from the 13th cent. onwards: see ye pron. 3, your adj. 1a(b), and branch A. II. This has contemporary parallels in many other European languages, Germanic as well as Romance; in Britain, usage in Latin and French was a key influence. Such usage appears at first to have been particularly characteristic of courtly or upper-class speech, and to have spread gradually through other social strata." So it all depends on time and place; in the early Middle Ages, and certainly in Old English, it was perfectly normal to call your lord "thou."
> Ye means "the", not "you". It is pronounced "the".
This is completely ridiculous. Please do not try to answer questions when you don't know what you're talking about.
posted by languagehat at 9:12 AM on November 14, 2014 [4 favorites]
This is not true. Thou/thee began as the (only) singular second-person pronoun and ye/you as the corresponding plural. After the Norman Conquest, to quote the OED (updated 2012), "use of historically plural forms with singular reference, for reasons of showing respect, deference, or formality, is found from the 13th cent. onwards: see ye pron. 3, your adj. 1a(b), and branch A. II. This has contemporary parallels in many other European languages, Germanic as well as Romance; in Britain, usage in Latin and French was a key influence. Such usage appears at first to have been particularly characteristic of courtly or upper-class speech, and to have spread gradually through other social strata." So it all depends on time and place; in the early Middle Ages, and certainly in Old English, it was perfectly normal to call your lord "thou."
> Ye means "the", not "you". It is pronounced "the".
This is completely ridiculous. Please do not try to answer questions when you don't know what you're talking about.
posted by languagehat at 9:12 AM on November 14, 2014 [4 favorites]
Response by poster: Okay, my mistake for that little "we can drop the thees and thous." I'm going back over the material and looking for instances where I can simply rephrase the sentence to drop out the archaic word choice. This actually solved the problem a lot and now the "thees and thous" are down to intimate scenes and signage. I believe a sign saying, "Thou Art Here" is not grammatically correct, but feels correct within the whimsical character of the book.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 10:38 AM on November 14, 2014
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 10:38 AM on November 14, 2014
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by corb at 11:44 AM on November 13, 2014 [1 favorite]