Really? You want to debate hipster donuts?
November 8, 2014 11:42 PM Subscribe
The guy I'm dating loves to argue and has really strong opinions about everything. I don't. Where do we go from here?
It seems like every single time we're on a date, we end up having a conversation where he expresses outrage at something: from the way people act, to things a politician did, the situation in a war torn country, the way society is, all the way to diet trends.
I like discussing all of these things, but don't usually get worked up about much. I tend to analyze with some detachment, even amusement. He seems to always have a strong opinion about whatever the subject matter at end might be. His go to emotion while arguing is outrage. It's increasingly turning me off.
We've been dating a couple a months. I otherwise like him and I would like to continue seeing him. This arguing style is never directed at me. If anything, he's incredibly caring, a good communicator and easy to get along with. Any ideas on how to negotiate this with him? Also, why does this even bother me?
It seems like every single time we're on a date, we end up having a conversation where he expresses outrage at something: from the way people act, to things a politician did, the situation in a war torn country, the way society is, all the way to diet trends.
I like discussing all of these things, but don't usually get worked up about much. I tend to analyze with some detachment, even amusement. He seems to always have a strong opinion about whatever the subject matter at end might be. His go to emotion while arguing is outrage. It's increasingly turning me off.
We've been dating a couple a months. I otherwise like him and I would like to continue seeing him. This arguing style is never directed at me. If anything, he's incredibly caring, a good communicator and easy to get along with. Any ideas on how to negotiate this with him? Also, why does this even bother me?
It sounds like a big difference in personalities (but not one that's necessarily a dealbreaker!): perhaps you're super chill and he's super intense, perhaps his strong emotions are a strength and endearing trait or perhaps he's got some issues with misplaced emotions that could use some professional assistance. Like J.Wilson can say, it can get draining for others (and probably himself, too!) Does he feel "heard" in life, like does he feel what he says and does matters to others? If he's at a low-point career-wise or at a hard time of transition, perhaps this behavior is due in part to feeling a lack of empowerment. (Hmm, I had some difficulty with phrasing but you get the gist!)
I don't think it necessarily has to be a reason to break up but it's also a perfectly legitimate reason if you do want to break up over it, ya know? I think the key to working it out is to talk to him about it work and see how he feels about your reaction to his reaction. Does he want freedom to get worked up like this, like does he consider having and expressing such passionate opinions to be an essential part of his being? Or does he know he can get a little over-the-top and be OK with saving such discussions for other people in his life and just dialing things back in conversations with you, like if you two develop a neutral symbol to tell him you're feeling overwhelmed?
Have other friends noticed this in him, too? I wouldn't want it to get gossipy or negative but perhaps they could offer you some constructive criticism as outsiders, both in terms of his actions and your reactions. Maybe he's a jerk, maybe you're the jerk, maybe you both are jerks in different ways ;-) or, most likely, you two just have different discussion styles but can work on finding a way to meet in the middle.
posted by smorgasbord at 12:15 AM on November 9, 2014 [2 favorites]
I don't think it necessarily has to be a reason to break up but it's also a perfectly legitimate reason if you do want to break up over it, ya know? I think the key to working it out is to talk to him about it work and see how he feels about your reaction to his reaction. Does he want freedom to get worked up like this, like does he consider having and expressing such passionate opinions to be an essential part of his being? Or does he know he can get a little over-the-top and be OK with saving such discussions for other people in his life and just dialing things back in conversations with you, like if you two develop a neutral symbol to tell him you're feeling overwhelmed?
Have other friends noticed this in him, too? I wouldn't want it to get gossipy or negative but perhaps they could offer you some constructive criticism as outsiders, both in terms of his actions and your reactions. Maybe he's a jerk, maybe you're the jerk, maybe you both are jerks in different ways ;-) or, most likely, you two just have different discussion styles but can work on finding a way to meet in the middle.
posted by smorgasbord at 12:15 AM on November 9, 2014 [2 favorites]
Being passionate is a virtue; being a bore, failing to recognize that you're sucking all the air out of the room, mistaking conflict for communication (and eternally seeking or creating the first), wanting to dominate your interlocutors (does he often interrupt you?), and lack of discrimination around outrage objects are not.
It's definitely tiring (imo) to be around someone who "loves to argue" about everything. If someone shows this behaviour (and doesn't let up, ever), I now know to walk away. Time and disappointment eventually mellow people like this out, a bit (say by late 30s. A bit.), but the inclination's always there, imo.
posted by cotton dress sock at 12:51 AM on November 9, 2014 [29 favorites]
It's definitely tiring (imo) to be around someone who "loves to argue" about everything. If someone shows this behaviour (and doesn't let up, ever), I now know to walk away. Time and disappointment eventually mellow people like this out, a bit (say by late 30s. A bit.), but the inclination's always there, imo.
posted by cotton dress sock at 12:51 AM on November 9, 2014 [29 favorites]
I consider myself to be a passionate / opinionated person, prone to argument for the sake of it (because I enjoy a debate). My other half loves me for it, but yes, in the past I have gone too far and broken the occasional romantic evening. It is because I enjoy the companionship of my girlfriend so much that I tend to let it all out with her. I also value her opinion enough, and she is considerate and loving enough, that when she tells me to chill I don't take it too personally. We can laugh about it.
You like this guy? Then give him some support and tell him how you feel about this. Be generous and loving about it. Channel that humorous streak of yours into your response to his flaring temper. When he gets too dramatic, tell him. Agree between yourselves on a codeword, a white flag symbol. Tell him you love his passion and enthusiasm and you'd like to lighten up your conversations sometimes with humour, fun and light.
If he reacts poorly to this then maybe you aren't going to work well in the long run. But give him some time before you decide its a deal breaker.
posted by 0bvious at 1:22 AM on November 9, 2014 [8 favorites]
You like this guy? Then give him some support and tell him how you feel about this. Be generous and loving about it. Channel that humorous streak of yours into your response to his flaring temper. When he gets too dramatic, tell him. Agree between yourselves on a codeword, a white flag symbol. Tell him you love his passion and enthusiasm and you'd like to lighten up your conversations sometimes with humour, fun and light.
If he reacts poorly to this then maybe you aren't going to work well in the long run. But give him some time before you decide its a deal breaker.
posted by 0bvious at 1:22 AM on November 9, 2014 [8 favorites]
Be careful - this could be a red flag.
In the first few months of a relationship, people generally put their best face forward. So I'm not surprised you haven't seen the ragey behaviour directed at you.
But, as time goes on and he gets more comfortable with you, don't be surprised if you become an ongoing target of his outrage.
I'm glad there is no indication of that yet, but be careful and on the lookout for it.
You are well within your rights for being bothered by this. Two people with fundamentally different styles of arguing will have difficulty getting along long-term. I dated someone like your bf for 7 years. He never changed and despite loving him to bits his ragey style of arguing was not my thing and did inevitably get regularly directed at me. I didn't want any future kids to have it directed at them, either.
posted by peanut butter milkshake at 1:32 AM on November 9, 2014 [13 favorites]
In the first few months of a relationship, people generally put their best face forward. So I'm not surprised you haven't seen the ragey behaviour directed at you.
But, as time goes on and he gets more comfortable with you, don't be surprised if you become an ongoing target of his outrage.
I'm glad there is no indication of that yet, but be careful and on the lookout for it.
You are well within your rights for being bothered by this. Two people with fundamentally different styles of arguing will have difficulty getting along long-term. I dated someone like your bf for 7 years. He never changed and despite loving him to bits his ragey style of arguing was not my thing and did inevitably get regularly directed at me. I didn't want any future kids to have it directed at them, either.
posted by peanut butter milkshake at 1:32 AM on November 9, 2014 [13 favorites]
This is a big red flag. If it is not how you are then after the first flush it would get really tiresome. I know some couples who have an argumentative style of interaction and seem to do well with each other, I know others who are temperamentally the opposite. Neither type would thrive in partnership with the other.
posted by epo at 2:19 AM on November 9, 2014
posted by epo at 2:19 AM on November 9, 2014
Tell him it bothers you. He might not realise it's draining to you, especially if he enjoys it. Righteous indignation is a very addictive drug and it might be that he's hooked on it. If you want to keep seeing him, then you're going to have to deal with the problem at some point or it's going to wear you down.
Tell him there's a problem and see how he handles it. If you want things to change, then it's fair to let him know what the problem is so he can change or not as he sees fit. Be prepared for him to not change, though. He's OK to continue behaving like this, and you need to decide how much of it you're prepared to put up with if he doesn't alter his behaviour.
Next time he's feeling calm, make the conversation about you and how you feel when he gets upset. Don't try to make out that he's in the wrong as that will only make the situation worse. When someone gets so worked up about persecution like this feels that they themselves are being persecuted, they tend to get even more wound up, in my experience. Try using "I feel" statements such as "I feel agitated when you express your feelings in an exited way" (you can hopefully choose a better example than that, but you get the idea).
I find it bothers me when people are like this because I get the implicit impression that I'm supposed to care as much as they do about {whatever}, and display that caring. Everybody has their own battle to fight, and some folk just don't care as much about anything as other people do - they're just more laid back and that's OK. It's almost like I'm doing it wrong if I don't get so agitated about the plight of the {whatever} that I can't sit still in my chair and maintain an inside voice. There's not necessarily any overt judgement, but one can still feel judged. And few people like to feel like they're being judged.
posted by Solomon at 2:30 AM on November 9, 2014 [3 favorites]
Tell him there's a problem and see how he handles it. If you want things to change, then it's fair to let him know what the problem is so he can change or not as he sees fit. Be prepared for him to not change, though. He's OK to continue behaving like this, and you need to decide how much of it you're prepared to put up with if he doesn't alter his behaviour.
Next time he's feeling calm, make the conversation about you and how you feel when he gets upset. Don't try to make out that he's in the wrong as that will only make the situation worse. When someone gets so worked up about persecution like this feels that they themselves are being persecuted, they tend to get even more wound up, in my experience. Try using "I feel" statements such as "I feel agitated when you express your feelings in an exited way" (you can hopefully choose a better example than that, but you get the idea).
I find it bothers me when people are like this because I get the implicit impression that I'm supposed to care as much as they do about {whatever}, and display that caring. Everybody has their own battle to fight, and some folk just don't care as much about anything as other people do - they're just more laid back and that's OK. It's almost like I'm doing it wrong if I don't get so agitated about the plight of the {whatever} that I can't sit still in my chair and maintain an inside voice. There's not necessarily any overt judgement, but one can still feel judged. And few people like to feel like they're being judged.
posted by Solomon at 2:30 AM on November 9, 2014 [3 favorites]
Personally, I think this IS a deal breaker.
It shows that you are two very different and distinct personalities.
This will influence how you talk, how you argue, how you discuss the every day things that need to be discussed should you move in together or even get married.
Who you are influences how you act.
He has show you who he is, he has shown you a brief glimpse into how he will act and react to certain things.
If he gets this argumentative over hipster donuts (to use your example), how is he going to discuss things such as finances, children, employment, retirement, etc.
I'm putting the romantic cart before the horse a bit, but you need to think long term and it sounds like this is not the guy for you.
posted by John Kennedy Toole Box at 4:36 AM on November 9, 2014 [3 favorites]
It shows that you are two very different and distinct personalities.
This will influence how you talk, how you argue, how you discuss the every day things that need to be discussed should you move in together or even get married.
Who you are influences how you act.
He has show you who he is, he has shown you a brief glimpse into how he will act and react to certain things.
If he gets this argumentative over hipster donuts (to use your example), how is he going to discuss things such as finances, children, employment, retirement, etc.
I'm putting the romantic cart before the horse a bit, but you need to think long term and it sounds like this is not the guy for you.
posted by John Kennedy Toole Box at 4:36 AM on November 9, 2014 [3 favorites]
Unless you can find a way to turn this into foreplay for hot post-argument sex, it's not worth it. There are other guys out there who are just as good and not as exhausting to converse with.
posted by Jacqueline at 4:42 AM on November 9, 2014
posted by Jacqueline at 4:42 AM on November 9, 2014
As a teenager, I was prone to outrage as a main mode of political discourse and then burned out on it. (This was partly growing up, but mostly not, I think.) Some of my family members are into it and it's just not worth discussing politics with them. It's too tiring and it's not much of a discussion anyway if we're just supposed to be outraged about things. If we're talking about outrage as the way of talking about politics, it probably is a deal breaker in a relationship for me--I'm interested in politics and I don't want the answer to be "don't talk about politics". However, there are plenty of couples who use the "don't talk about politics" strategy with great success.
I'm inclined to find someone like your boyfriend exhausting, maybe a bit shallow (outrage taking the place of having to think too hard about things) and someone who doesn't bring out the best in me. I will act outraged about the lack of donut shops in Minneapolis (and have on Metafilter) even though I don't much like donuts and that's fun now and again, but it's no fun in every single discussion.
This is all a long, wandering way of saying that I think you're seeing the relationship start to run its course. His outrage isn't a red flag in the sense of "this guy is awful and no one should be dating him", but that doesn't mean it doesn't make the two of you ultimately incompatible.
posted by hoyland at 5:05 AM on November 9, 2014 [3 favorites]
I'm inclined to find someone like your boyfriend exhausting, maybe a bit shallow (outrage taking the place of having to think too hard about things) and someone who doesn't bring out the best in me. I will act outraged about the lack of donut shops in Minneapolis (and have on Metafilter) even though I don't much like donuts and that's fun now and again, but it's no fun in every single discussion.
This is all a long, wandering way of saying that I think you're seeing the relationship start to run its course. His outrage isn't a red flag in the sense of "this guy is awful and no one should be dating him", but that doesn't mean it doesn't make the two of you ultimately incompatible.
posted by hoyland at 5:05 AM on November 9, 2014 [3 favorites]
Hipster donuts? Does he really talk about hipster donuts? That'd be cool if he were passionate, yet chill about it. I'm curious about how old he/you are. I'm guessing if he's in his mid-late twenties, it could be something that mellows out. I wouldn't say it's a dealbreaker or a hot red flag. Maybe a wee reddish colored flag. But it depends a lot on you and where you are. The main thing to consider is how you feel and how you deal with it. Stuff like this in a relationship is actually a great opportunity to find out how two people communicate, work through issues. Cause they always be issues in relationships.
Definitely talk to him about it, and seconding the using humor. If he mellows, awesome. If he doesn't, it probably means he's really that argumentative, and it could take you leaving him for him to learn to modify his behavior and get in touch with how much he cares (or doesn't) about other people.
I'm reminded of when this kind of thing would happen to me in relationships/friendships. I had to learn how to have my own voice and really be able to stand my own ground before I could deal with it well. That's just to say, you may have to deal with your own concept of who you are - are you someone who can stand up to this behavior and get what you need, or are you someone who would really prefer a gentler, softer partner. This could be a point of great learning for you, which could be something to embrace (even though it might carry a certain amount of pain). Good luck!
posted by ihavequestions at 5:34 AM on November 9, 2014 [1 favorite]
Definitely talk to him about it, and seconding the using humor. If he mellows, awesome. If he doesn't, it probably means he's really that argumentative, and it could take you leaving him for him to learn to modify his behavior and get in touch with how much he cares (or doesn't) about other people.
I'm reminded of when this kind of thing would happen to me in relationships/friendships. I had to learn how to have my own voice and really be able to stand my own ground before I could deal with it well. That's just to say, you may have to deal with your own concept of who you are - are you someone who can stand up to this behavior and get what you need, or are you someone who would really prefer a gentler, softer partner. This could be a point of great learning for you, which could be something to embrace (even though it might carry a certain amount of pain). Good luck!
posted by ihavequestions at 5:34 AM on November 9, 2014 [1 favorite]
I have people in my life like this, that I care about and very much like otherwise. When they go off on something, I pretend I'm listening to the radio, which creates distance so I don't feel like I'm being argued with.
People I'm very very close to, I can get away with saying at the end, "Oh, I'm sorry, you were ranting, so I kind of stopped listening." My ranters tend generally to have a sense of humor about themselves, which is why I like them in spite of the ranting.
posted by JanetLand at 5:47 AM on November 9, 2014 [10 favorites]
People I'm very very close to, I can get away with saying at the end, "Oh, I'm sorry, you were ranting, so I kind of stopped listening." My ranters tend generally to have a sense of humor about themselves, which is why I like them in spite of the ranting.
posted by JanetLand at 5:47 AM on November 9, 2014 [10 favorites]
I'd try to get a little deeper: "you sound very frustrated by that, why is it so personal to you?" Or "it sounds like you feel powerless about it, how about volunteering?" Or "well no use getting angry at how other people are, who are we to judge? There is no perfect answer to these grey issues and I don't expect one" or "stop! Tonight is romance night only. You have 2mins to rant about this topic and then we change topics. Ok go!" or "has anyone ever remarked how you like to vent?" Then see how he responds. If he comes round to reason and calms down and shows self-reflection then maybe he's just a venter and that's how he copes with frustration. If he keeps on ranting, well that's a turn off to anybody and he really won't change. Just don't feel responsible for his frustration or that you have to make nice about it or "meet him in his outrage". Sometimes your partner will express anger at things and it's good to learn how to respond to it. So I agree with ihavequestions, I don't see red flags but a good chance to show up as you are and see if there is a real relationship here despite the differences you have. If it still gets under your skin, well that's something you can't ignore away but at least you can leave knowing that you handled it really well. Good luck.
posted by St. Peepsburg at 6:30 AM on November 9, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by St. Peepsburg at 6:30 AM on November 9, 2014 [1 favorite]
I told my boyfriend that this style of conversation was too much like my job and that almost did the trick but the real solution came when we found a friend who does the same thing. Now they argue with each other so vehemently that people think they're about to get into a fist fight but they are having a blast and i don't have to join in or worry. Baseball. Wall Street. Politics. You name it. And it gets out of my boyfriend's system.
posted by janey47 at 6:45 AM on November 9, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by janey47 at 6:45 AM on November 9, 2014 [2 favorites]
This is my significant other's personality... Intensely passionate about things he hates but also gets worked up and excited about things he loves. We''ve been together for over four years so unless he's going to present with a new personality after five years it wasn't a red flag.
I considered breaking up with him a couple times within the first year of us dating but never did because the positives always outweighed the negatives. I've also learned to tune him out sometimes (especially if he gets worked up about donuts) I know this probably isn't the " recommended" way to deal with it but I feel once he gets whatever it is off his chest the conversation is much better than if I ask him to simmer down.
I'm still generally quite and unopinionated but he has brought out a small part of my argumennative side which comes in handy sometimes. The only problem we have now is when we get together with one of my old friends who also has a history of arguing for sport. They never see eye to eye and they'll both start shit just to annoy the other person and they're never very happy to see each other.
So, as with most things, if it bothers you more than you can handle you are allowed to break up because of it. But you don't absolutely have to.
posted by missriss89 at 6:54 AM on November 9, 2014
I considered breaking up with him a couple times within the first year of us dating but never did because the positives always outweighed the negatives. I've also learned to tune him out sometimes (especially if he gets worked up about donuts) I know this probably isn't the " recommended" way to deal with it but I feel once he gets whatever it is off his chest the conversation is much better than if I ask him to simmer down.
I'm still generally quite and unopinionated but he has brought out a small part of my argumennative side which comes in handy sometimes. The only problem we have now is when we get together with one of my old friends who also has a history of arguing for sport. They never see eye to eye and they'll both start shit just to annoy the other person and they're never very happy to see each other.
So, as with most things, if it bothers you more than you can handle you are allowed to break up because of it. But you don't absolutely have to.
posted by missriss89 at 6:54 AM on November 9, 2014
An old friend of mine slowly evolved into exactly this sort of person. He has a standing Wednesday night get-together with the guys (well, anyone who wants to join, really.) I went quite often in the beginning. But, after awhile, it became obvious to me that the evenings were pretty much my friend's forum to vent his spleen over politics, art, music, etc. He was especially adamant that we should share his outrage. It became really, really exhausting and, eventually, I just stopped going.
I still think of him as my friend, and we run into each other fairly often, but I simply can't do the night-o-argument anymore.
I had the luxury of simply not participating anymore. You, unfortunately, are in a relationship. My suggestion is to be completely honest with him about this. Ask if he could find a way to engage in conversation over these topics without the constant forceful outrage. It's definitely something you two need to discuss and hopefully come to an understanding about before you get further into the relationship.
posted by Thorzdad at 6:57 AM on November 9, 2014 [2 favorites]
I still think of him as my friend, and we run into each other fairly often, but I simply can't do the night-o-argument anymore.
I had the luxury of simply not participating anymore. You, unfortunately, are in a relationship. My suggestion is to be completely honest with him about this. Ask if he could find a way to engage in conversation over these topics without the constant forceful outrage. It's definitely something you two need to discuss and hopefully come to an understanding about before you get further into the relationship.
posted by Thorzdad at 6:57 AM on November 9, 2014 [2 favorites]
I've known people like this and yes, their outragefilters were overly developed and they were ranters about ALLTHETHINGS and I realized just now that over the years I've gotten away from these types of people for a few reasons:
1. Their ranty outrage is just EXHAUSTING to listen to. It's not a conversation; it's having to sit still for their rants. They want an audience, not a conversational partner. And the tone of all their conversations is outrage. It's like sitting in front of stadium-wall-sized speakers at an ACDC concert and being blasted in the face with Angus Young. After a while you need a break because it batters you.
2. Intelligent reasons for rant or no, they're kind of a drag, ultimately. People who have such ISSUES with hipster donuts, with the GOP, with puppies in pet stores, with Spirit Air, with WHATEVER...their anger and unhappiness about pretty much everything is just really depressing when all is said and done. I get it. Many things suck. But many things do not and when you're with someone who has to FEELALLTHETHINGS and ALLTHETHINGSSUCK? It's just depressing to listen to them after a while and I want to tell them to just calm the eff down already and chill. I think of the Eeyore syndrome.
3. It's one thing to view the world through a negative lens, but it's another to take all that negativity and get shouty and ranty about it. I think of the Sam Kinison type here. All that anger and venom.
I stay away from people like this, but if you like this guy and want to give it a whirl, then you need to just tell him what you've said: you appreciate he's passionate, but it feels less conversational and more confrontational than you're comfortable with and how would he feel about reining himself in?
posted by kinetic at 6:58 AM on November 9, 2014 [5 favorites]
1. Their ranty outrage is just EXHAUSTING to listen to. It's not a conversation; it's having to sit still for their rants. They want an audience, not a conversational partner. And the tone of all their conversations is outrage. It's like sitting in front of stadium-wall-sized speakers at an ACDC concert and being blasted in the face with Angus Young. After a while you need a break because it batters you.
2. Intelligent reasons for rant or no, they're kind of a drag, ultimately. People who have such ISSUES with hipster donuts, with the GOP, with puppies in pet stores, with Spirit Air, with WHATEVER...their anger and unhappiness about pretty much everything is just really depressing when all is said and done. I get it. Many things suck. But many things do not and when you're with someone who has to FEELALLTHETHINGS and ALLTHETHINGSSUCK? It's just depressing to listen to them after a while and I want to tell them to just calm the eff down already and chill. I think of the Eeyore syndrome.
3. It's one thing to view the world through a negative lens, but it's another to take all that negativity and get shouty and ranty about it. I think of the Sam Kinison type here. All that anger and venom.
I stay away from people like this, but if you like this guy and want to give it a whirl, then you need to just tell him what you've said: you appreciate he's passionate, but it feels less conversational and more confrontational than you're comfortable with and how would he feel about reining himself in?
posted by kinetic at 6:58 AM on November 9, 2014 [5 favorites]
"Any ideas on how to negotiate this with him?"
In my experience, the best you can hope for is to negotiate a very limited change -- such as not ranting in front of your parents. Sounds to me like this trait is deeply ingrained in his personality. I suspect that you will not be able to change him in any sort of meaningful, long-lasting way. So you should resolve to find ways to cope with it on your end, or just end the relationship.
posted by alex1965 at 6:59 AM on November 9, 2014
In my experience, the best you can hope for is to negotiate a very limited change -- such as not ranting in front of your parents. Sounds to me like this trait is deeply ingrained in his personality. I suspect that you will not be able to change him in any sort of meaningful, long-lasting way. So you should resolve to find ways to cope with it on your end, or just end the relationship.
posted by alex1965 at 6:59 AM on November 9, 2014
Hi, your boyfriend (or someone kinda like him), here.
Some people think/process things out loud, i.e. more or less in real-time. That's where the "crescendo" style of oratory comes from, at least for me; a thing comes to my attention, and as I talk about it I discover/remember new aspects of the thing, or new connections to other things. This is true for things I approve of and things that anger me. It's just a sort of time-stretched "eureka" moment.
I can totally see why this might be irritating. Even if the topics were always positive, it would be exhausting to have the bulk of conversation feel like it was taking place in a pressure-cooker. A reasonably self-aware person will eventually figure this out, and start trying to modify their behavior. For instance, I've become fairly well-attuned to non-verbal signals that my girlfriend isn't in the mood for one of my impassioned opinions, and is becoming annoyed or tuning out. (I don't go on rants to waste my brilliance in a void; I want the other person to join me in my mounting excitement. If that's not happening, I try to start ratcheting down and giving them room to join in at their own speed, or just change the topic.) But the most effective thing she does is use her words, and Peepsburg has some great suggestions in that vein.
Also, why does this even bother me?
Do you perhaps feel unheard in these situations, or talked-over? If one person is highly-verbal and on a tear, the less verbal person is likely to feel "interrupted." They aren't being interrupted, technically, because they aren't saying anything, but they might feel like they don't see space to jump in. If you are operating at "amused detachment" speed, and he's always shifting up through the gears, you may feel shut down/shut out. If so, express that to him; if he's a decent guy, he'll hear it and try to moderate his behavior.
Ultimately, this will hinge on how much you value this guy, and how much he values you. It's not necessarily a red-flag/DTMFA situation at all; more likely, it's a potential learning/growth opportunity for both parties.
posted by credible hulk at 7:11 AM on November 9, 2014 [4 favorites]
Some people think/process things out loud, i.e. more or less in real-time. That's where the "crescendo" style of oratory comes from, at least for me; a thing comes to my attention, and as I talk about it I discover/remember new aspects of the thing, or new connections to other things. This is true for things I approve of and things that anger me. It's just a sort of time-stretched "eureka" moment.
I can totally see why this might be irritating. Even if the topics were always positive, it would be exhausting to have the bulk of conversation feel like it was taking place in a pressure-cooker. A reasonably self-aware person will eventually figure this out, and start trying to modify their behavior. For instance, I've become fairly well-attuned to non-verbal signals that my girlfriend isn't in the mood for one of my impassioned opinions, and is becoming annoyed or tuning out. (I don't go on rants to waste my brilliance in a void; I want the other person to join me in my mounting excitement. If that's not happening, I try to start ratcheting down and giving them room to join in at their own speed, or just change the topic.) But the most effective thing she does is use her words, and Peepsburg has some great suggestions in that vein.
Also, why does this even bother me?
Do you perhaps feel unheard in these situations, or talked-over? If one person is highly-verbal and on a tear, the less verbal person is likely to feel "interrupted." They aren't being interrupted, technically, because they aren't saying anything, but they might feel like they don't see space to jump in. If you are operating at "amused detachment" speed, and he's always shifting up through the gears, you may feel shut down/shut out. If so, express that to him; if he's a decent guy, he'll hear it and try to moderate his behavior.
Ultimately, this will hinge on how much you value this guy, and how much he values you. It's not necessarily a red-flag/DTMFA situation at all; more likely, it's a potential learning/growth opportunity for both parties.
posted by credible hulk at 7:11 AM on November 9, 2014 [4 favorites]
I disagree that this is a red flag. His response to a measured "the outrage is getting exhausting, can you dial it back please?" (use better words; you know the sorts of communication he'll respond to) is what will tell you whether it's worth sticking around or no.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 7:13 AM on November 9, 2014 [4 favorites]
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 7:13 AM on November 9, 2014 [4 favorites]
This arguing style is never directed at me.
It's unclear to me that this is his arguing style at all - is it? Him being ranty about bad things when in your company doesn't necessarily mean that he shouts or berates when arguing.
You can try just straight-up telling him that the everything-turned-up-to-11 is exhausting for you, as a listener. If you want to keep seeing him, do not cast his passionate/emotional style as negative, especially in comparison to your relatively dispassionate take - unless you really do see your way as preferable for everyone and not just you, in which case, you might consider whether or not you two are a good fit.
Some of us deal with the crappy things in the world by ranting to those we love rather than distancing them with amused detachment. Neither style is wrong; they're just different styles, and may not always be compatible.
posted by rtha at 7:25 AM on November 9, 2014 [2 favorites]
It's unclear to me that this is his arguing style at all - is it? Him being ranty about bad things when in your company doesn't necessarily mean that he shouts or berates when arguing.
You can try just straight-up telling him that the everything-turned-up-to-11 is exhausting for you, as a listener. If you want to keep seeing him, do not cast his passionate/emotional style as negative, especially in comparison to your relatively dispassionate take - unless you really do see your way as preferable for everyone and not just you, in which case, you might consider whether or not you two are a good fit.
Some of us deal with the crappy things in the world by ranting to those we love rather than distancing them with amused detachment. Neither style is wrong; they're just different styles, and may not always be compatible.
posted by rtha at 7:25 AM on November 9, 2014 [2 favorites]
I was in a similar situation, and I couldn't help shake the feeling that the outrage that was directed a Hyundais and people who wear navy socks with black pants would eventually get directed at me.
posted by deanc at 7:42 AM on November 9, 2014 [16 favorites]
posted by deanc at 7:42 AM on November 9, 2014 [16 favorites]
"Hey, can we talk about positive things? All this anger is wearing me out. What's going well in the world/your life/your job/our city?"
I think some people just forget that there are things they like in the world. Other people have weird distorted thinking that tells them only stupid people talk about things they like. It bothers me when every conversation is about how awful the world is (a) because it's depressing, and (b) because people who spend that much time talking about how much smarter they are than all those idiots who do or believe X are often themselves insecure control freaks, and I worry that their inability to take other people's feelings or beliefs into consideration bodes ill for any future conflict they have with me.
A former boyfriend once challenged me to say something nice about people at least once a day. I hadn't realized how negative and complaining I had been until he (nicely) made the suggestion. There are those Facebook memes that go around, too, of "Name five things you're grateful for." I wonder if prompting him to talk more about good things, at least around you, would help shift this dynamic.
posted by jaguar at 7:45 AM on November 9, 2014 [8 favorites]
I think some people just forget that there are things they like in the world. Other people have weird distorted thinking that tells them only stupid people talk about things they like. It bothers me when every conversation is about how awful the world is (a) because it's depressing, and (b) because people who spend that much time talking about how much smarter they are than all those idiots who do or believe X are often themselves insecure control freaks, and I worry that their inability to take other people's feelings or beliefs into consideration bodes ill for any future conflict they have with me.
A former boyfriend once challenged me to say something nice about people at least once a day. I hadn't realized how negative and complaining I had been until he (nicely) made the suggestion. There are those Facebook memes that go around, too, of "Name five things you're grateful for." I wonder if prompting him to talk more about good things, at least around you, would help shift this dynamic.
posted by jaguar at 7:45 AM on November 9, 2014 [8 favorites]
Have you met this guy's friends? Have you seen him interact with others? If he's in a pack of people who argue with each other about shit like this...no thank you.
People can have awesome qualities, mixed in with some really shitty ones. You get to a place where you have to decide, 'can I live with this?'
Talk to him and tell him, "Cletus, I realize that you feel passionately about a lot of things, and frankly I find it exhausting. Is it possible for you to tone it down?" Either he can, and you continue to get to know him and see if you're right for each other, or he can't and you decide to break it off.
Personally, if you're asking, you should probably just let him go. I think you're 75% at that point. You're dating, not more encumbered. Sure, he has good qualities, but this one thing is a deal breaker for you.
I promise, you'll find another guy who has lots of good qualities who doesn't feel the need to advocate for a bacon/beer/maple donut.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 7:49 AM on November 9, 2014
People can have awesome qualities, mixed in with some really shitty ones. You get to a place where you have to decide, 'can I live with this?'
Talk to him and tell him, "Cletus, I realize that you feel passionately about a lot of things, and frankly I find it exhausting. Is it possible for you to tone it down?" Either he can, and you continue to get to know him and see if you're right for each other, or he can't and you decide to break it off.
Personally, if you're asking, you should probably just let him go. I think you're 75% at that point. You're dating, not more encumbered. Sure, he has good qualities, but this one thing is a deal breaker for you.
I promise, you'll find another guy who has lots of good qualities who doesn't feel the need to advocate for a bacon/beer/maple donut.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 7:49 AM on November 9, 2014
There are lots of people who love to debate and have strong opinions who don't display emotional outrage about said opinions. I think I know the type of personality you're describing -- kind of like, Louis C.K.'s standup persona but in an everyday guy? I would find that very tiresome to be around. If, just a couple months in, you're already having to have Talks about Communication and Negativity and Feelings, and you're frequently feeling annoyed by his personality... is this something you really want to invest in, or do you want to look for a relationship where you're not emailing internet strangers for advice after just a handful of weeks?
posted by rogerrogerwhatsyourrvectorvicto at 7:57 AM on November 9, 2014 [3 favorites]
posted by rogerrogerwhatsyourrvectorvicto at 7:57 AM on November 9, 2014 [3 favorites]
It sounds pretty tiresome, and if you're already wondering whether it's worth it, you'll probably find yourself deciding pretty soon whether it is or not.
posted by fivesavagepalms at 8:44 AM on November 9, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by fivesavagepalms at 8:44 AM on November 9, 2014 [1 favorite]
I think you owe it to yourself to talk to him about it. If he's truly into you, he'll do what he can to amend his behavior. I don't think it's a good idea to just walk away and end the relationship over something he might be able to fix.
Now, if he can't fix it, then maybe you'll want to reevaluate things.
posted by evil otto at 8:54 AM on November 9, 2014
Now, if he can't fix it, then maybe you'll want to reevaluate things.
posted by evil otto at 8:54 AM on November 9, 2014
I have been your boyfriend. I recommend bringing it up at a neutral time - not in the middle of one of his rants - in the kindest way you can. Focus on your experience ("I feel bored/put off/lonely when you start doing this.") Then, if you really like him, give him time to figure this out. It won't change overnight.
posted by latkes at 8:57 AM on November 9, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by latkes at 8:57 AM on November 9, 2014 [1 favorite]
Recreational outrage is boring, and opinions are cheap. If he really is this stunted in his interactions with the world, you might be doing yourself a favor by moving on sooner than later.
posted by Emperor SnooKloze at 9:03 AM on November 9, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by Emperor SnooKloze at 9:03 AM on November 9, 2014 [1 favorite]
I tend to analyze with some detachment, even amusement. ... His go to emotion while arguing is outrage. It's increasingly turning me off.
What happens if you respond to his outrage and/or your turned-off feelings by analyzing them out loud, in a detached or even amused style?
posted by feral_goldfish at 9:58 AM on November 9, 2014 [2 favorites]
What happens if you respond to his outrage and/or your turned-off feelings by analyzing them out loud, in a detached or even amused style?
posted by feral_goldfish at 9:58 AM on November 9, 2014 [2 favorites]
I was in a similar situation, and I couldn't help shake the feeling that the outrage that was directed at Hyundais and people who wear navy socks with black pants would eventually get directed at me.
QFT. And we're still married! Part of the trick is, y'all need a way for you to jolt him out of that mode. In my experience, it's only partly about using your words -- those get through a lot better if you're also curling around the other person, pressing your eyebrows against theirs, poking them vigorously, etc.
posted by feral_goldfish at 10:08 AM on November 9, 2014 [2 favorites]
QFT. And we're still married! Part of the trick is, y'all need a way for you to jolt him out of that mode. In my experience, it's only partly about using your words -- those get through a lot better if you're also curling around the other person, pressing your eyebrows against theirs, poking them vigorously, etc.
posted by feral_goldfish at 10:08 AM on November 9, 2014 [2 favorites]
You have every right to be upset by this. It's immature and ego-driven, annoying, and not conducive to actual conversation.
I dated a guy like this once. He would get righteously indignant, ranty, and outraged over things ALL THE TIME. At first I thought it was great that he was so passionate, but then I realized that he never really did anything about these things he claimed to care so much about, and I realized he was just ranting to show off his political or social knowledge, and putting down the intelligence of people who did not share his highly specific opinion. Essentially, he was showing off -- and it got old real quick.
I used a lot of redirection -- I would let him ramble for a bit and then say, "Yeah, I see how you would feel that way. What do you think about [non-rant-inducing topic]?"
But eventually I broke up with him because I just could not take the mansplaining and condescension any more, whether it was directed at me or not (it usually was not).
Now that he doesn't have me around to vent to, he trolls people on Facebook and provokes them into arguments. It's so lame.
posted by ananci at 10:25 AM on November 9, 2014 [1 favorite]
I dated a guy like this once. He would get righteously indignant, ranty, and outraged over things ALL THE TIME. At first I thought it was great that he was so passionate, but then I realized that he never really did anything about these things he claimed to care so much about, and I realized he was just ranting to show off his political or social knowledge, and putting down the intelligence of people who did not share his highly specific opinion. Essentially, he was showing off -- and it got old real quick.
I used a lot of redirection -- I would let him ramble for a bit and then say, "Yeah, I see how you would feel that way. What do you think about [non-rant-inducing topic]?"
But eventually I broke up with him because I just could not take the mansplaining and condescension any more, whether it was directed at me or not (it usually was not).
Now that he doesn't have me around to vent to, he trolls people on Facebook and provokes them into arguments. It's so lame.
posted by ananci at 10:25 AM on November 9, 2014 [1 favorite]
this is not a red flag
we have zero information.
You should change the subject as quickly as possible when he does those things. Just don't get to involved in them.
see how he reacts. This is "What Shamu Taught Me About my Marriage" not "The Burning Bed"
posted by Ironmouth at 11:14 AM on November 9, 2014 [2 favorites]
we have zero information.
You should change the subject as quickly as possible when he does those things. Just don't get to involved in them.
see how he reacts. This is "What Shamu Taught Me About my Marriage" not "The Burning Bed"
posted by Ironmouth at 11:14 AM on November 9, 2014 [2 favorites]
It would bother me too. I prioritize building goodwill in all my interactions--I admire "passionate" people, but I get turned off when they forget the importance of tact and sensitivity to others' reaction and engagement. This particular quality of his is not bad, it just doesn't mesh well with your sensibilities, hinting at a (possibly) major incompatibility. I agree with others that you should communicate to him how it makes you feel. He'll most likely make adjustments and be more mindful in his future conversations with you... but remember that it will always be a feature of who he is, and you should reflect on whether it's something you're prepared to tolerate.
posted by tackypink at 12:16 PM on November 9, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by tackypink at 12:16 PM on November 9, 2014 [1 favorite]
I don't think this is red flag behavior in that this guy is angry or potentially abusive.
This is red flag behavior in that he sounds like a total pain in the ass.
posted by ablazingsaddle at 12:16 PM on November 9, 2014 [7 favorites]
This is red flag behavior in that he sounds like a total pain in the ass.
posted by ablazingsaddle at 12:16 PM on November 9, 2014 [7 favorites]
I could be your bf. I wasn't always this way...it's a recent development. Before, I was detached and numb. The awful things I saw in the world around me, and that I had experienced in my own life, made me think they were normal. Everyone around me reinforced it. It happened to everyone. So why talk about it. Who cares.
But then I started meeting and talking to good people. Good people who let me finally see that those awful things? Well, they aren't normal. They shouldn't be normal. And not talking about them isn't the solution. Let's talk about them.
It's tough to feel as though you've just truly opened your eyes to what's going on around you. It's tough to not want to shout at everyone that these things are awful and shouldn't happen...in hopes that they'll truly believe that too. What else can we do? So much misdirected emotion is there. It's easy to forget you might be preaching to the choir. Now, I want to talk to the choir and find out why they're in it. If some people share these same ideals, how did they get them? What experiences did they have? I want to know what their life has been like.
I started to become aware (insecure about) this on my own but being gently called out by my partner would've been as effective (and I would've been thankful). For me, i feel i'm going from voicing outrage to wanting to know -why- the other person is or isn't. It has resulted in a monumental shift in my thinking (re: caring about others) that I am incredibly grateful for.
So i'd suggest gently calling him out and if he continues it's up to you to decide whether you want to deal with such an incompatibility.
posted by stubbehtail at 12:28 PM on November 9, 2014 [1 favorite]
But then I started meeting and talking to good people. Good people who let me finally see that those awful things? Well, they aren't normal. They shouldn't be normal. And not talking about them isn't the solution. Let's talk about them.
It's tough to feel as though you've just truly opened your eyes to what's going on around you. It's tough to not want to shout at everyone that these things are awful and shouldn't happen...in hopes that they'll truly believe that too. What else can we do? So much misdirected emotion is there. It's easy to forget you might be preaching to the choir. Now, I want to talk to the choir and find out why they're in it. If some people share these same ideals, how did they get them? What experiences did they have? I want to know what their life has been like.
I started to become aware (insecure about) this on my own but being gently called out by my partner would've been as effective (and I would've been thankful). For me, i feel i'm going from voicing outrage to wanting to know -why- the other person is or isn't. It has resulted in a monumental shift in my thinking (re: caring about others) that I am incredibly grateful for.
So i'd suggest gently calling him out and if he continues it's up to you to decide whether you want to deal with such an incompatibility.
posted by stubbehtail at 12:28 PM on November 9, 2014 [1 favorite]
communication is pretty much the MAIN thing in a relationship isn't it? when your guy's conversation style annoys you so much, you need to move on.
in earlier years I might have done what you are trying to do ... figure out a way to salvage the relationship.
but as I've grown older I've concluded that with stuff like this it really isn't fair to put up with it, or to ask the other person to change.
the right person will not annoy you. their conversation style will feel SO right, so perfect to you. you will have no need to ask them to tone anything down.
posted by jayder at 5:52 PM on November 9, 2014 [1 favorite]
in earlier years I might have done what you are trying to do ... figure out a way to salvage the relationship.
but as I've grown older I've concluded that with stuff like this it really isn't fair to put up with it, or to ask the other person to change.
the right person will not annoy you. their conversation style will feel SO right, so perfect to you. you will have no need to ask them to tone anything down.
posted by jayder at 5:52 PM on November 9, 2014 [1 favorite]
To me this is not a red flag. There is an aspect of my partner's personality that is like this; it reads as aggressive to me and I can't cope with that. After really analysing it I just expressed it as "It makes me defensive and flighty to be around that kind of anger, even if it's not directed at me." The reason it's not a red flag is that he then stopped doing it.
Very occasionally I find myself saying "Hey can you tone down the outrage" but in general, people in my house say things like "I am very angry about this" and other people believe those words without the need for demonstrations of volume or aggression.
posted by DarlingBri at 11:38 PM on November 9, 2014
Very occasionally I find myself saying "Hey can you tone down the outrage" but in general, people in my house say things like "I am very angry about this" and other people believe those words without the need for demonstrations of volume or aggression.
posted by DarlingBri at 11:38 PM on November 9, 2014
The MBTI personality inventory is super unscientific and weird, but one of the things I think I gained from reading about it extensively is getting into the mindset where it's assumed that people are processing the same stuff in very different ways. This sounds like a classic INTP/ENFP split, ie you are doing TiNeSe and your guy is doing NiFeTe. What you think is the purpose of conversation is going to be fundamentally different if he is busy sorting everything into a vast interconnecting system of Good and Bad, and you are playing around with ideas to find out if they are internally consistent. Starting from this position may make it easier to work out a way of bridging the divide.
posted by Acheman at 4:32 AM on November 10, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by Acheman at 4:32 AM on November 10, 2014 [2 favorites]
With regard to your question, there are two kind of people: people who don't mind a continually out-raged partner and people who do. You have discovered that you are of the latter variety, and the reality is that this makes your boyfriend not so much fun to be around (and, therefore, less attractive to you than someone who was less outraged).
So, basically I would say this: your relationship is doomed if you cannot express the concerns you've outlined here with your partner and have him respond with care. There's hope, however, if he's the type of guy who totally gets why perpetual outrage can be a turn-off and is willing (and able) to adjust his communication style. He may not be able to adjust, though, and so y'all just might not be compatible.
Shorter version: You should be with someone you can comfortably communicate with. If his basic modus operandi turns you off, he's probably not a good match for you.
posted by Gray Skies at 1:30 PM on November 10, 2014 [1 favorite]
So, basically I would say this: your relationship is doomed if you cannot express the concerns you've outlined here with your partner and have him respond with care. There's hope, however, if he's the type of guy who totally gets why perpetual outrage can be a turn-off and is willing (and able) to adjust his communication style. He may not be able to adjust, though, and so y'all just might not be compatible.
Shorter version: You should be with someone you can comfortably communicate with. If his basic modus operandi turns you off, he's probably not a good match for you.
posted by Gray Skies at 1:30 PM on November 10, 2014 [1 favorite]
I used to do this more until a girl I was dating at the time said, "You sound really judgmental." Weirdly, I'd always thought of her as really judgmental too, so it kind of shook me into asking myself, "Why do I care?" I mean, I still think lots of things are stupid, but for the most part they don't actually affect my life — people listening to the wrong type of music are punishing themselves, and OPINIONS! was just kinda blocking me from enjoying a lot of things I dismissed out of hand.
Talk to him. He might not be able to see this part of himself; sometimes the best part of a relationship is realizing that things you think of as totally innocent make you seem like an asshole to others.
posted by klangklangston at 7:10 PM on November 13, 2014 [2 favorites]
Talk to him. He might not be able to see this part of himself; sometimes the best part of a relationship is realizing that things you think of as totally innocent make you seem like an asshole to others.
posted by klangklangston at 7:10 PM on November 13, 2014 [2 favorites]
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by J. Wilson at 12:01 AM on November 9, 2014 [13 favorites]