Being a Gentleman - 21st Century Edition
November 4, 2014 10:23 AM Subscribe
What is with all this misogyny and hate against women? What can I as a good male of the species do, to stop this?
This question is slighlty convoluted, but please bear with me. I'd like to reference my previous question on dating.
I've recently taken the plunge to internet dating and have had one date so far (credit = Tinder) and two more possibly lined up for this week (again, credit = Tinder).
The recent spate of hate and vitriol I'm seeing against women deeply bothers me. Today's Metafilter link to Buy Felipe and why the author created it struck a nerve.
Is the reason that dating is hard for guys, simply because a lot of us don't really know how to treat women as equals and as humans?
What can I do to make sure that I don't get categorized as someone that belongs to that category (you can read my previous AskMe - my closest friends are all women I truly adore)?
How can I make women feel at ease during my interactions and on my dates with them?
What else can I do to not be labeled as a creep?
My only aim is to go on as many dates as possible, with a genuine interest to get to know the person.
Is all hope lost for mankind?
This question is slighlty convoluted, but please bear with me. I'd like to reference my previous question on dating.
I've recently taken the plunge to internet dating and have had one date so far (credit = Tinder) and two more possibly lined up for this week (again, credit = Tinder).
The recent spate of hate and vitriol I'm seeing against women deeply bothers me. Today's Metafilter link to Buy Felipe and why the author created it struck a nerve.
Is the reason that dating is hard for guys, simply because a lot of us don't really know how to treat women as equals and as humans?
What can I do to make sure that I don't get categorized as someone that belongs to that category (you can read my previous AskMe - my closest friends are all women I truly adore)?
How can I make women feel at ease during my interactions and on my dates with them?
What else can I do to not be labeled as a creep?
My only aim is to go on as many dates as possible, with a genuine interest to get to know the person.
Is all hope lost for mankind?
Also: all hope is not lost. In fact, the only reason all this stuff is coming up now is because we are finally actually trying to deal with it. We're listing up the rug and trying to sweep out all the crap under there. It looks ugly and it feels ugly, but it's better than leaving it all under there and never dealing with it.
posted by showbiz_liz at 10:30 AM on November 4, 2014 [11 favorites]
posted by showbiz_liz at 10:30 AM on November 4, 2014 [11 favorites]
What can I do to make sure that I don't get categorized as someone that belongs to that category?
Listen to us and believe what we are saying.
posted by melissasaurus at 10:31 AM on November 4, 2014 [15 favorites]
Listen to us and believe what we are saying.
posted by melissasaurus at 10:31 AM on November 4, 2014 [15 favorites]
I think all you need to do is continue to treat women with respect, kindness and consideration (and sure, stand up for women to other men if the opportunity arises). I've gone out with a lot of guys I met online, and all were decent, respectful people. 99% of the messages I got were the same way. I don't think all hope is lost, by any means.
posted by three_red_balloons at 10:33 AM on November 4, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by three_red_balloons at 10:33 AM on November 4, 2014 [2 favorites]
Some of this is internet anonymity. That said, the thing you can do is call other men out on their misogyny. Men like that are just going to dismiss women as fem-nazis if they call them out on it. Women should stick up for themselves regardless; but it might actually make an impact if you, another male, lets a man know that he is being unacceptable.
What can I do to make sure that I don't get categorized..
Do not insult women or call them fat if you get rejected. Also don't automatically assume you deserve to go out on a date with them or have sex with them because you were friendly.
How can I make women feel at ease during my interactions and on my dates with them?
Treat them like a human being.
What else can I do to not be labeled as a creep?
Don't call or text all the time. Don't ask women to take their profiles down or ask them to mark themselves in a relationship on facebook. Don't try to control her actions. Don't string them along in thinking this is going to turn into a long term relationship if that's not what you're looking for.
posted by royalsong at 10:36 AM on November 4, 2014 [3 favorites]
What can I do to make sure that I don't get categorized..
Do not insult women or call them fat if you get rejected. Also don't automatically assume you deserve to go out on a date with them or have sex with them because you were friendly.
How can I make women feel at ease during my interactions and on my dates with them?
Treat them like a human being.
What else can I do to not be labeled as a creep?
Don't call or text all the time. Don't ask women to take their profiles down or ask them to mark themselves in a relationship on facebook. Don't try to control her actions. Don't string them along in thinking this is going to turn into a long term relationship if that's not what you're looking for.
posted by royalsong at 10:36 AM on November 4, 2014 [3 favorites]
Is the reason that dating is hard for guys, simply because a lot of us don't really know how to treat women as equals and as humans?
In some cases, yes. But there are a lot of other reasons too - social anxiety, being physically unattractive, etc.
What can I do to make sure that I don't get categorized as someone that belongs to that category (you can read my previous AskMe - my closest friends are all women I truly adore)?
Take a long, hard, undefensive look at your own attitudes and opinions about women.
Do some reading about feminism (this anthology, now somewhat dated but still pretty powerful, was an eye-opener on my own "unknown unknowns" about my own privilege as a man. AskMe has more recommendations).
Listen to the women in your life when they talk to you, and make a good faith effort to treat them with seriously and with respect.
posted by ryanshepard at 10:40 AM on November 4, 2014 [2 favorites]
In some cases, yes. But there are a lot of other reasons too - social anxiety, being physically unattractive, etc.
What can I do to make sure that I don't get categorized as someone that belongs to that category (you can read my previous AskMe - my closest friends are all women I truly adore)?
Take a long, hard, undefensive look at your own attitudes and opinions about women.
Do some reading about feminism (this anthology, now somewhat dated but still pretty powerful, was an eye-opener on my own "unknown unknowns" about my own privilege as a man. AskMe has more recommendations).
Listen to the women in your life when they talk to you, and make a good faith effort to treat them with seriously and with respect.
posted by ryanshepard at 10:40 AM on November 4, 2014 [2 favorites]
How can I make women feel at ease during my interactions and on my dates with them?
What else can I do to not be labeled as a creep?
Treat women, and men, and humans in general, as independent beings with rights to their own opinions, feelings, and bodily autonomy. Really, that's the main idea here.
More specifically, don't suggest dates like hiking in the woods, taking a boat someplace, taking a ferry/train someplace... make sure any first dates you suggest are things where the woman has her own independent escape route and can leave at any time. They don't have to be getting coffee, but they also shouldn't be "Hey, let's stargaze in a remote field!" (And on a related note, don't joke around about how you're not a serial killer/rapist. This is not as comforting as men seem to think it is.)
Also, if someone turns you down, DO NOT REPLY unless it is to say "Thanks for your response. Best of luck to you!" If you feel the need to make ANY defense of yourself... just walk away. And if a woman doesn't respond, understand that it's because she's gotten messages like the ones from Bye Felipe, and she's not willing to play the odds.
Also, if you have lots of good female friends -- why aren't they setting you up with their friends? I would (gently) feel them out on that. Maybe they're willing to set you up but didn't want to be presumptuous. Or maybe they have some reservations about setting you up, in which case you might find talking to them useful.
posted by pie ninja at 10:41 AM on November 4, 2014 [19 favorites]
What else can I do to not be labeled as a creep?
Treat women, and men, and humans in general, as independent beings with rights to their own opinions, feelings, and bodily autonomy. Really, that's the main idea here.
More specifically, don't suggest dates like hiking in the woods, taking a boat someplace, taking a ferry/train someplace... make sure any first dates you suggest are things where the woman has her own independent escape route and can leave at any time. They don't have to be getting coffee, but they also shouldn't be "Hey, let's stargaze in a remote field!" (And on a related note, don't joke around about how you're not a serial killer/rapist. This is not as comforting as men seem to think it is.)
Also, if someone turns you down, DO NOT REPLY unless it is to say "Thanks for your response. Best of luck to you!" If you feel the need to make ANY defense of yourself... just walk away. And if a woman doesn't respond, understand that it's because she's gotten messages like the ones from Bye Felipe, and she's not willing to play the odds.
Also, if you have lots of good female friends -- why aren't they setting you up with their friends? I would (gently) feel them out on that. Maybe they're willing to set you up but didn't want to be presumptuous. Or maybe they have some reservations about setting you up, in which case you might find talking to them useful.
posted by pie ninja at 10:41 AM on November 4, 2014 [19 favorites]
I would separate "things I can do to help women in general in the world" from those things which you should do on a date because you are on a date.
When you are on a date, just show up and treat your date as a fellow person. Read How to Win Friends and Influence People if you want a general-purpose fluff-up for interpersonal interaction.
Is the reason that dating is hard for guys, simply because a lot of us don't really know how to treat women as equals and as humans?
That's a reason that dating can be hard, but I wouldn't say it's "the" reason that dating can be hard. It bleeds over into dating to the extent that women must adopt certain practices to filter out Felipes, etc. Taken out of context, this can sometimes be jarring to a guy who would never do anything Felipe-like himself, and who doesn't see the Felipe-esque side of other guys. For example, women are constantly barraged with (often unwanted) attention in a way that men typically are not. This helps create different dating rituals. Such is life, just navigate it.
What can I do to make sure that I don't get categorized as someone that belongs to that category (you can read my previous AskMe - my closest friends are all women I truly adore)?
To be perfectly honest, if you just treat your dates as fellow people, then you should be good. Do *you* think that you put people off, or that you do anything to put people off? Or, are you becoming nervous because you see things that women put up with, but which you yourself do not do? I mean, it's not like you're going to have a bad day and then suddenly mass email dick pics to everyone on your OKCupid list.
How can I make women feel at ease during my interactions and on my dates with them?
Treat them as fellow people. When people are complaining about creeps, they're not talking about not being treated with a weird level of extra care. They're talking about things like being told to eat shit because they've declined a second date. Don't put women on pedestals, don't think that women are alien or scary or permanent victims, or anything like that.
What else can I do to not be labeled as a creep?
Don't be one? Sympathize if somebody else complains about creeps?
posted by Sticherbeast at 10:44 AM on November 4, 2014 [3 favorites]
When you are on a date, just show up and treat your date as a fellow person. Read How to Win Friends and Influence People if you want a general-purpose fluff-up for interpersonal interaction.
Is the reason that dating is hard for guys, simply because a lot of us don't really know how to treat women as equals and as humans?
That's a reason that dating can be hard, but I wouldn't say it's "the" reason that dating can be hard. It bleeds over into dating to the extent that women must adopt certain practices to filter out Felipes, etc. Taken out of context, this can sometimes be jarring to a guy who would never do anything Felipe-like himself, and who doesn't see the Felipe-esque side of other guys. For example, women are constantly barraged with (often unwanted) attention in a way that men typically are not. This helps create different dating rituals. Such is life, just navigate it.
What can I do to make sure that I don't get categorized as someone that belongs to that category (you can read my previous AskMe - my closest friends are all women I truly adore)?
To be perfectly honest, if you just treat your dates as fellow people, then you should be good. Do *you* think that you put people off, or that you do anything to put people off? Or, are you becoming nervous because you see things that women put up with, but which you yourself do not do? I mean, it's not like you're going to have a bad day and then suddenly mass email dick pics to everyone on your OKCupid list.
How can I make women feel at ease during my interactions and on my dates with them?
Treat them as fellow people. When people are complaining about creeps, they're not talking about not being treated with a weird level of extra care. They're talking about things like being told to eat shit because they've declined a second date. Don't put women on pedestals, don't think that women are alien or scary or permanent victims, or anything like that.
What else can I do to not be labeled as a creep?
Don't be one? Sympathize if somebody else complains about creeps?
posted by Sticherbeast at 10:44 AM on November 4, 2014 [3 favorites]
The recent spate of hate and vitriol I'm seeing against women deeply bothers me.
It's not recent, and it isn't a spate.
posted by flabdablet at 10:46 AM on November 4, 2014 [46 favorites]
It's not recent, and it isn't a spate.
posted by flabdablet at 10:46 AM on November 4, 2014 [46 favorites]
I would just say realize the difference between "recent spate" and "something that's getting play in the media right now". They aren't the same thing. Understand and believe the historical context of women being treated like objects for the past few thousand years. We're making a lot of progress very fast, but/and that scares some people and they act out.
posted by bleep at 10:49 AM on November 4, 2014 [9 favorites]
posted by bleep at 10:49 AM on November 4, 2014 [9 favorites]
You're just seeing dense concentrations of unusual internet people. Go to a popular restaurant on a Friday and see how people are acting; it's all very normal.
posted by michaelh at 10:58 AM on November 4, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by michaelh at 10:58 AM on November 4, 2014 [2 favorites]
The recent spate of hate and vitriol I'm seeing against women deeply bothers me.
I appreciate that you've only recently noticed this, but the 'recent spate' is just pretty much just regular old patriarchy that happens to have been amplified to a volume where men are no longer able to ignore it or reliably explain it away. An intense awareness of society's hatred and vitriol toward women has been a very prominent aspect of my consciousness since I was old enough to think. A lot of men live in a completely different world than a lot of women do.
What can I do to make sure that I don't get categorized as someone that belongs to that category (you can read my previous AskMe - my closest friends are all women I truly adore)?
When and where you see injustice, speak up, and if other people see injustice where you see none, rather than leaping to dismiss others' perspectives and experiences as flawed or incorrect, take a minute to consider that your perspective may have limited or obscured your ability to see this particular type of injustice. In general, I feel like I can trust a guy when I see him reliably and consistently speaking out against instances of sexism, racism, etc. without getting hyper-defensive when someone who has boots-on-the-ground experience with those prejudices takes issue with the way he has chosen to speak out about them. To me, that's the difference between saying you're an ally and really being one. It's also really awesome whenever I see a guy decrying misogyny without tacking on so much as a single syllable of addendum to imply that Women Should Just or that we Just Need To [X]TM in order to somehow magically transcend or avoid sexism.
How can I make women feel at ease during my interactions and on my dates with them?
Treat us like regular, boring, normal people. Zzzzzz. Don't get up in our personal space unless you're invited to do so, don't stare at us, don't isolate us, don't test our boundaries, don't nitpick or push back on the choices we make for ourselves, don't blame us for things other people have done or could do to us, don't shit-talk your ex-girlfriends. Don't ever call an ex "crazy," nothing makes me more aware that a guy is utterly two-faced than if he shit-talks his exes or calls them "crazy" while we're out together. Don't get kneejerk defensive about phenomena like "mansplaining," don't go full-tilt #notallmen when a woman is talking about her experiences with sexism. Just take our words at face value, trust that we know what we're talking about when we're talking about our own thoughts and feelings and lives, and believe what we say. If we share something personal and painful with you, don't rush to try to explain it away or fix it -- it's OK to just say, "Wow, that must have been tough." And if you're not sure what to do or say, just ask. We don't bite. Well, most of us don't.
What else can I do to not be labeled as a creep?
Listen and learn. Take "no" as an answer -- a final answer -- with grace and poise. If someone nudges you about a potentially problematic aspect of your behavior or personality, turn your gaze inward instead of lashing out. Empathize, sympathize, and cultivate compassion. Remember that no one owes you anything, not attention, not affection, not a single moment of their time. Oh, and if you haven't already, please read this.
posted by divined by radio at 11:02 AM on November 4, 2014 [30 favorites]
I appreciate that you've only recently noticed this, but the 'recent spate' is just pretty much just regular old patriarchy that happens to have been amplified to a volume where men are no longer able to ignore it or reliably explain it away. An intense awareness of society's hatred and vitriol toward women has been a very prominent aspect of my consciousness since I was old enough to think. A lot of men live in a completely different world than a lot of women do.
What can I do to make sure that I don't get categorized as someone that belongs to that category (you can read my previous AskMe - my closest friends are all women I truly adore)?
When and where you see injustice, speak up, and if other people see injustice where you see none, rather than leaping to dismiss others' perspectives and experiences as flawed or incorrect, take a minute to consider that your perspective may have limited or obscured your ability to see this particular type of injustice. In general, I feel like I can trust a guy when I see him reliably and consistently speaking out against instances of sexism, racism, etc. without getting hyper-defensive when someone who has boots-on-the-ground experience with those prejudices takes issue with the way he has chosen to speak out about them. To me, that's the difference between saying you're an ally and really being one. It's also really awesome whenever I see a guy decrying misogyny without tacking on so much as a single syllable of addendum to imply that Women Should Just or that we Just Need To [X]TM in order to somehow magically transcend or avoid sexism.
How can I make women feel at ease during my interactions and on my dates with them?
Treat us like regular, boring, normal people. Zzzzzz. Don't get up in our personal space unless you're invited to do so, don't stare at us, don't isolate us, don't test our boundaries, don't nitpick or push back on the choices we make for ourselves, don't blame us for things other people have done or could do to us, don't shit-talk your ex-girlfriends. Don't ever call an ex "crazy," nothing makes me more aware that a guy is utterly two-faced than if he shit-talks his exes or calls them "crazy" while we're out together. Don't get kneejerk defensive about phenomena like "mansplaining," don't go full-tilt #notallmen when a woman is talking about her experiences with sexism. Just take our words at face value, trust that we know what we're talking about when we're talking about our own thoughts and feelings and lives, and believe what we say. If we share something personal and painful with you, don't rush to try to explain it away or fix it -- it's OK to just say, "Wow, that must have been tough." And if you're not sure what to do or say, just ask. We don't bite. Well, most of us don't.
What else can I do to not be labeled as a creep?
Listen and learn. Take "no" as an answer -- a final answer -- with grace and poise. If someone nudges you about a potentially problematic aspect of your behavior or personality, turn your gaze inward instead of lashing out. Empathize, sympathize, and cultivate compassion. Remember that no one owes you anything, not attention, not affection, not a single moment of their time. Oh, and if you haven't already, please read this.
posted by divined by radio at 11:02 AM on November 4, 2014 [30 favorites]
Pay attention to how much respect and attention you accord to women who don't fall into your "real person/fuckable" category - pay attention to how you treat elderly women, for instance, or women of a different subcultural demographic, or from a different class background, etc. Do you assume that a woman who looks like she has less education than you is stupid? Are you unwilling to engage with older women at work, when shopping, etc? Do you assume that someone who is from a different subculture is stupid and has bad values?
Are you more patient with men who are late or slow or grumpy than with women? Is this especially true with older women, ie do you treat grumpy old dudes with more respect than grumpy old women?
Do you read books by women on a regular basis? Are you familiar with a broad range of women writers? Can you think of important women writers in your favorite genre of book?
Do you assume that if something is associated with women (make-up, "women's magazines", "chick flicks", etc) it is automatically unsophisticated and boring? Do you assume that "women's history" is lightweight and lacks intellectual rigor? (Do you seek out any kind of "women's history" to read?)
Do you constantly evaluate women's bodies and appearance even when it's not appropriate or germane? (Ie, do you look over at Random Mom On The Bus and think that she really should wear different jeans, or look at your supervisor and decide that her shirt is too tight? Do you look at elderly women at the beach and think "ew, why don't they go to the gym more"?)
Are you familiar with common life, health and safety concerns that affect women's daily lives so that you have a practical understanding of why women tend to do (or not do) things even if you are not pleased by the result? Ie, do you understand that a woman who is sixty is going to experience hormonal changes that affect the shape of her body, texture of her hair, etc, or do you assume that older women who perm their hair or don't have perfectly smooth make-up are somehow failing to do things right? Do you understand the amount of time and money that it takes to manage both head and body hair to the dominant cultural standard? Do you understand how women's lowered earning potential and the mommy track translate into poverty in old age? Do you understand how child support works and how it is enforced/fails to be enforced? Etc, etc.
Do you constantly second guess mothers? Do you resent women in authority because they remind you of your mom? (If you hate your mom, pay attention to what that can trigger in your treatment of older or authoritative women.)
Very often, misogyny is discussed as though it is primarily about sexual harassment and assault - partly because sexual harassment is the most visible, frustrating, violent and scary aspect. One reason it took me a long time to feel that feminism was relevant to me, actually, was because I am sexually unappealing to straight men and even in my young day was not generally inappropriately sexualized, propositioned, etc....so I figured that really, feminism would never do anything for me because it was for pretty girls. But misogyny impacts all women at all ages.
posted by Frowner at 11:03 AM on November 4, 2014 [56 favorites]
Are you more patient with men who are late or slow or grumpy than with women? Is this especially true with older women, ie do you treat grumpy old dudes with more respect than grumpy old women?
Do you read books by women on a regular basis? Are you familiar with a broad range of women writers? Can you think of important women writers in your favorite genre of book?
Do you assume that if something is associated with women (make-up, "women's magazines", "chick flicks", etc) it is automatically unsophisticated and boring? Do you assume that "women's history" is lightweight and lacks intellectual rigor? (Do you seek out any kind of "women's history" to read?)
Do you constantly evaluate women's bodies and appearance even when it's not appropriate or germane? (Ie, do you look over at Random Mom On The Bus and think that she really should wear different jeans, or look at your supervisor and decide that her shirt is too tight? Do you look at elderly women at the beach and think "ew, why don't they go to the gym more"?)
Are you familiar with common life, health and safety concerns that affect women's daily lives so that you have a practical understanding of why women tend to do (or not do) things even if you are not pleased by the result? Ie, do you understand that a woman who is sixty is going to experience hormonal changes that affect the shape of her body, texture of her hair, etc, or do you assume that older women who perm their hair or don't have perfectly smooth make-up are somehow failing to do things right? Do you understand the amount of time and money that it takes to manage both head and body hair to the dominant cultural standard? Do you understand how women's lowered earning potential and the mommy track translate into poverty in old age? Do you understand how child support works and how it is enforced/fails to be enforced? Etc, etc.
Do you constantly second guess mothers? Do you resent women in authority because they remind you of your mom? (If you hate your mom, pay attention to what that can trigger in your treatment of older or authoritative women.)
Very often, misogyny is discussed as though it is primarily about sexual harassment and assault - partly because sexual harassment is the most visible, frustrating, violent and scary aspect. One reason it took me a long time to feel that feminism was relevant to me, actually, was because I am sexually unappealing to straight men and even in my young day was not generally inappropriately sexualized, propositioned, etc....so I figured that really, feminism would never do anything for me because it was for pretty girls. But misogyny impacts all women at all ages.
posted by Frowner at 11:03 AM on November 4, 2014 [56 favorites]
Recognize that no woman owes you anything. If she declines a date with you, declines sex, or even just straight-up ignores you, it is well within her rights to do so.
posted by Librarypt at 11:10 AM on November 4, 2014 [5 favorites]
posted by Librarypt at 11:10 AM on November 4, 2014 [5 favorites]
Oh, also, if you're ever in any kind of authoritative or hiring position - make sure that you do not treat gender-non-conforming women as discipline cases. There is a tendency to assume that "mainstream feminine self-presentation" equals "good" and anything different is trouble.
Basically, don't assume that women are doing things at you unless there's a strong reason to assume they are - I don't wear my hair really short because I want to indicate "I hate cis dudes".
posted by Frowner at 11:13 AM on November 4, 2014 [7 favorites]
Basically, don't assume that women are doing things at you unless there's a strong reason to assume they are - I don't wear my hair really short because I want to indicate "I hate cis dudes".
posted by Frowner at 11:13 AM on November 4, 2014 [7 favorites]
After years of being in relationships with decent men with whom things didn't work out for whatever reason, I am now in my early thirties and recently dating. It is truly amazing to me that men are consistently late to dates, lack basic manners (I'm not the kind of girl for whom it's a dealbreaker when a man doesn't hold a door open for me), and refuse to see their own "issues" (one memorable individual badmouthed all his exes in under half an hour on our second date)... all the while pointing fingers at the woman as if her sensitivity/ emotions were unreasonable and/ or illogical and 'she's not the right one because we're incompatible.' NO woman worth her salt is compatible with a dick, period.
Perpetuate the notion among your fellow men that (some? most?) women are reasonable, and when they do get emotional or sensitive, it might just be justifiable because they did something idiotic. Sure, there are some members of our sex that give us a bad name, and there are times when ALL women are unreasonable - but men shouldn't paint all women with the same brush. The fact that a man is likely to value the same advice of a male friend over a woman he's dating is in itself a double standard. I've been lucky enough to have met good men, but the handful of 'bad' apples I've run into are just... yikes.
posted by Everydayville at 11:16 AM on November 4, 2014 [1 favorite]
Perpetuate the notion among your fellow men that (some? most?) women are reasonable, and when they do get emotional or sensitive, it might just be justifiable because they did something idiotic. Sure, there are some members of our sex that give us a bad name, and there are times when ALL women are unreasonable - but men shouldn't paint all women with the same brush. The fact that a man is likely to value the same advice of a male friend over a woman he's dating is in itself a double standard. I've been lucky enough to have met good men, but the handful of 'bad' apples I've run into are just... yikes.
posted by Everydayville at 11:16 AM on November 4, 2014 [1 favorite]
Oh hey, also, and in a spirit of helpfulness and non-judgeyness:
Your above-the-cut question is "What can I as a good male of the species do to stop misogyny and hate against women?" Then below the cut it's "How can I make women feel at ease during my interactions and on my dates with them? What else can I do to not be labeled as a creep?"
Those are not the same questions.
One is about other people, and one is about yourself and how you're perceived. Neither is a bad question to ask, but the answer to the first question is a HELL of a lot broader than the second one, because this isn't an 'individual guys on dates' problem, it's a societal problem.
posted by showbiz_liz at 11:19 AM on November 4, 2014 [9 favorites]
Your above-the-cut question is "What can I as a good male of the species do to stop misogyny and hate against women?" Then below the cut it's "How can I make women feel at ease during my interactions and on my dates with them? What else can I do to not be labeled as a creep?"
Those are not the same questions.
One is about other people, and one is about yourself and how you're perceived. Neither is a bad question to ask, but the answer to the first question is a HELL of a lot broader than the second one, because this isn't an 'individual guys on dates' problem, it's a societal problem.
posted by showbiz_liz at 11:19 AM on November 4, 2014 [9 favorites]
I'm not the first to mention this, but it bears repeating: one of the most important things men can do is not express defensiveness when a woman is discussing misogyny or pointing out patterns of patriarchy. The minute a man expresses defensiveness, it lends credence to the idea that women are making this shit up and patriarchal structures don't really exist, or at least not to the extent we say they do.
Any individual man might not intend it this way, but this (very common!) defensiveness functions as another brick in the wall and it is harmful.
posted by hurdy gurdy girl at 11:20 AM on November 4, 2014 [15 favorites]
Any individual man might not intend it this way, but this (very common!) defensiveness functions as another brick in the wall and it is harmful.
posted by hurdy gurdy girl at 11:20 AM on November 4, 2014 [15 favorites]
My only aim is to go on as many dates as possible, with a genuine interest to get to know the person.
From my perspective, you are saying "I want something to be both heavy and light at the same time." I will suggest that the first half of your sentence conflicts with the second.
I am not a big fan of dating. That is not to rain on your parade, it is just to say that I think dating is basically a situation in which two people have agreed beforehand that this is a negotiation with regards to whether or not sex will happen (maybe not TONIGHT, but at some point) and very frequently occurs in a situation where they barely know each other. So I think that dating in that fashion tends to create barriers to genuinely getting to know someone as a person. Thus, I do not date. I went on maybe six dates in my teens. I hated every single one of them. Instead, I have a history of making real friends with men and sometimes becoming sexually intimate with them if, after getting to know each other as friends, we decide we are also attracted.
So what I would personally suggest is that you consider skipping the internet dating thing and just continue to make friends with women -- real friends.
As for social situations, I have not found it very helpful for men to call out other men for mistreating me or for being misogynistic or what have you. Instead, I have found it priceless when men talk with me like a human being, take me seriously like they would a man, and not engage in any of the dismissive behavior that so many men engage in vis-à-vis mostly talking in a seriously engaged fashion with a woman only if they are hoping to get into her pants. An alternative to "calling men out" for misogynistic things they say is to just quietly bring up things in a way that validates better options or other views so that those things are not the only things getting press, so to speak. Calling people out is something that tends to put people on the defensive and when people feel defensive, they tend to not want to admit that what they are doing is wrong. There is a means of speaking to issues in a non-combative manner which helps them get heard and which begins eroding the hold the majority view has without turning it unnecessarily into a battle.
FWIW, I probably have the highest karma of any openly female member of hacker news, a place that is still a serious boyzone. This is a thing I have talked about a fair amount there in trying to make it possible for me to participate productively and it is something I have blogged about some. A few of those blog posts made the front page of hacker news.
I realize that getting to know potential lovers or mates is challenging if you don't frame it as a date. I am not saying you can never go out to dinner and a movie with a woman to whom you are attracted. I just tended to do that with people at a later stage in the relationship, where I knew them some already and was willing to put the question of sex on the table or we were already sleeping together.
I just sincerely feel that going out to dinner with someone for the express purpose of negotiating for a sexual relationship when you barely know each other causes both parties to start trying to give an impression that will lure in the other party while they themselves try to poke holes in a presumed façade. This is made fun of at times in sitcoms or other kinds of humor. As just one example, in the movie "White Chicks," a black male cop disguised as a white woman is trying to get a black man to not be interested in him when they are on a date. Every single thing he does to be intentionally offensive and revolting just makes the other guy adore him all the more. These games are well known as part of dating culture. For me, it makes it a strange game where the only winning move is not to play.
I am just trying to make the point that if you have a genuine interest in getting to know a woman as a person, then a date may not the best way to make that happen. Perhaps a group get together with a bunch of friends, perhaps meeting to engage in a hobby you have in common and some other purely social activities would better serve your stated goal.
posted by Michele in California at 11:30 AM on November 4, 2014 [4 favorites]
From my perspective, you are saying "I want something to be both heavy and light at the same time." I will suggest that the first half of your sentence conflicts with the second.
I am not a big fan of dating. That is not to rain on your parade, it is just to say that I think dating is basically a situation in which two people have agreed beforehand that this is a negotiation with regards to whether or not sex will happen (maybe not TONIGHT, but at some point) and very frequently occurs in a situation where they barely know each other. So I think that dating in that fashion tends to create barriers to genuinely getting to know someone as a person. Thus, I do not date. I went on maybe six dates in my teens. I hated every single one of them. Instead, I have a history of making real friends with men and sometimes becoming sexually intimate with them if, after getting to know each other as friends, we decide we are also attracted.
So what I would personally suggest is that you consider skipping the internet dating thing and just continue to make friends with women -- real friends.
As for social situations, I have not found it very helpful for men to call out other men for mistreating me or for being misogynistic or what have you. Instead, I have found it priceless when men talk with me like a human being, take me seriously like they would a man, and not engage in any of the dismissive behavior that so many men engage in vis-à-vis mostly talking in a seriously engaged fashion with a woman only if they are hoping to get into her pants. An alternative to "calling men out" for misogynistic things they say is to just quietly bring up things in a way that validates better options or other views so that those things are not the only things getting press, so to speak. Calling people out is something that tends to put people on the defensive and when people feel defensive, they tend to not want to admit that what they are doing is wrong. There is a means of speaking to issues in a non-combative manner which helps them get heard and which begins eroding the hold the majority view has without turning it unnecessarily into a battle.
FWIW, I probably have the highest karma of any openly female member of hacker news, a place that is still a serious boyzone. This is a thing I have talked about a fair amount there in trying to make it possible for me to participate productively and it is something I have blogged about some. A few of those blog posts made the front page of hacker news.
I realize that getting to know potential lovers or mates is challenging if you don't frame it as a date. I am not saying you can never go out to dinner and a movie with a woman to whom you are attracted. I just tended to do that with people at a later stage in the relationship, where I knew them some already and was willing to put the question of sex on the table or we were already sleeping together.
I just sincerely feel that going out to dinner with someone for the express purpose of negotiating for a sexual relationship when you barely know each other causes both parties to start trying to give an impression that will lure in the other party while they themselves try to poke holes in a presumed façade. This is made fun of at times in sitcoms or other kinds of humor. As just one example, in the movie "White Chicks," a black male cop disguised as a white woman is trying to get a black man to not be interested in him when they are on a date. Every single thing he does to be intentionally offensive and revolting just makes the other guy adore him all the more. These games are well known as part of dating culture. For me, it makes it a strange game where the only winning move is not to play.
I am just trying to make the point that if you have a genuine interest in getting to know a woman as a person, then a date may not the best way to make that happen. Perhaps a group get together with a bunch of friends, perhaps meeting to engage in a hobby you have in common and some other purely social activities would better serve your stated goal.
posted by Michele in California at 11:30 AM on November 4, 2014 [4 favorites]
That's something women can't do for themselves, because often, men just won't listen
Having told a few men to respect women, and been laughed at, I'd describe the problem by paraphrasing the Athenians at Melos: justice only exists between equally-powerful people; otherwise the more powerful do what they want. Bullies respond to threats, not compassion, and threats don't belong in civil society, making it difficult to appropriately respond to bullying.
the reason that dating is hard for guys?
Dating is hard for pretty much everyone. Love is mercilessly transactional: most people agree on what traits are positive and want someone slightly "better" than them. Some people date "down" and get (sex/validation) by stringing along less attractive people, arguably making it harder for other people to have good relationships. People who know what you're doing wrong have no incentive to tell you, and idealistic people like to believe love is incomprehensible.
I will say this: if someone has much better social skills than you, such that they could usually lie to you without you noticing, the odds are good that they will mislead you (about their desires, past, etc.) because human nature is (often) self-serving.
To date without being creepy, listen and don't push boundaries.
To end misogyny, invent something (a technology or social/legal innovation) that equalizes the balance of power between men and women. This is hard to do: most solutions would make things worse by giving people more ways to hurt each other or by adding oppressive Government monitoring.
posted by sninctown at 11:49 AM on November 4, 2014 [3 favorites]
Having told a few men to respect women, and been laughed at, I'd describe the problem by paraphrasing the Athenians at Melos: justice only exists between equally-powerful people; otherwise the more powerful do what they want. Bullies respond to threats, not compassion, and threats don't belong in civil society, making it difficult to appropriately respond to bullying.
the reason that dating is hard for guys?
Dating is hard for pretty much everyone. Love is mercilessly transactional: most people agree on what traits are positive and want someone slightly "better" than them. Some people date "down" and get (sex/validation) by stringing along less attractive people, arguably making it harder for other people to have good relationships. People who know what you're doing wrong have no incentive to tell you, and idealistic people like to believe love is incomprehensible.
I will say this: if someone has much better social skills than you, such that they could usually lie to you without you noticing, the odds are good that they will mislead you (about their desires, past, etc.) because human nature is (often) self-serving.
To date without being creepy, listen and don't push boundaries.
To end misogyny, invent something (a technology or social/legal innovation) that equalizes the balance of power between men and women. This is hard to do: most solutions would make things worse by giving people more ways to hurt each other or by adding oppressive Government monitoring.
posted by sninctown at 11:49 AM on November 4, 2014 [3 favorites]
don't try to turn a No into a Yes, during sex or anytime else.
listen to us and believe what we are saying even though we will describe an experience that is really different from yours.
Nthing those above who are asking you to call out other men when they say and do things that are misogynistic and hurtful. be willing to have that uncomfortable conversation.
dating is hard for everyone. remember when you're interested in a woman and she rejects you, she may seem so desirable and wanted to you in that moment, or before that moment - but she has also been rejected, and had her heart broken.
normal human empathy goes a long way.
posted by zdravo at 11:51 AM on November 4, 2014 [2 favorites]
listen to us and believe what we are saying even though we will describe an experience that is really different from yours.
Nthing those above who are asking you to call out other men when they say and do things that are misogynistic and hurtful. be willing to have that uncomfortable conversation.
dating is hard for everyone. remember when you're interested in a woman and she rejects you, she may seem so desirable and wanted to you in that moment, or before that moment - but she has also been rejected, and had her heart broken.
normal human empathy goes a long way.
posted by zdravo at 11:51 AM on November 4, 2014 [2 favorites]
What I want men to do is talk to other men. Call them out whenever possible when they say shitty things. That's something women can't do for themselves, because often, men just won't listen to us when we say things make us uncomfortable.
Along with this: be ready for those men to avoid responding to you, or to blow you off without really defending themselves. Chris Kluwe's piece on Gamergate was absolutely vicious, while Anita Sarkeesian's videos have been exceptionally neutral and academic in tone...and yet she's the one getting the death threats.
That doesn't mean you shouldn't wade in there where you see the need. I agree with showbiz_liz: it needs to be done. You're not being a "white knight" by calling bullshit out for what it is. You're just being the sort of person that more people should be.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 11:51 AM on November 4, 2014
Along with this: be ready for those men to avoid responding to you, or to blow you off without really defending themselves. Chris Kluwe's piece on Gamergate was absolutely vicious, while Anita Sarkeesian's videos have been exceptionally neutral and academic in tone...and yet she's the one getting the death threats.
That doesn't mean you shouldn't wade in there where you see the need. I agree with showbiz_liz: it needs to be done. You're not being a "white knight" by calling bullshit out for what it is. You're just being the sort of person that more people should be.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 11:51 AM on November 4, 2014
You're not being a "white knight" by calling bullshit out for what it is.
Just don't forget to call out bullshit when it's just you and the guys and there's nobody around to give you brownie points for it.
posted by prize bull octorok at 12:19 PM on November 4, 2014 [10 favorites]
Just don't forget to call out bullshit when it's just you and the guys and there's nobody around to give you brownie points for it.
posted by prize bull octorok at 12:19 PM on November 4, 2014 [10 favorites]
Probably step one would be to take the word "gentleman" out back and shoot it in the head, like they do with terminally ill or injured horses.
The descriptive phrase you're looking for is "decent human being in the 21st century."
posted by like_a_friend at 12:24 PM on November 4, 2014 [18 favorites]
The descriptive phrase you're looking for is "decent human being in the 21st century."
posted by like_a_friend at 12:24 PM on November 4, 2014 [18 favorites]
Best advice I ever had (from my wife) was that sometimes women just want you to listen and not solve their problems, which seems to be a male instinct. Not ever issue has a solution (or needs one).
posted by RafikiGuy at 12:39 PM on November 4, 2014
posted by RafikiGuy at 12:39 PM on November 4, 2014
#1 is always, always, always, if she says "No" or seems hesitant or gives you a veiled excuse, do not push it. Do not try to persuade her, regardless of what it is, even if it's a tiny little thing. Say, "Oh, no worries, we'll do X or Y then, does that work?" This lets the women you're with know that you listen to a no and that you want us to consent. These are things that make us feel safer around people we don't know very well.
This may be something that benefits you further along the relationship path than on first dates, but when women bring up issues that upset them, do not minimize their anger or sadness, even if it makes you uncomfortable. Do not offer explanations or excuses. Just. Listen. And say something like, "That totally sucks and it shouldn't have happened, I'm sorry you're hurting."
And, this one has been a big issue for me and my current SO, do not assume that they know you agree with them when they present a gender issue. Do not assume that they can make the intuitive leap from, "Well, I'm a good person, so she must know that I don't agree with catcalling." We can't. We can't make that leap. We have been burned too many times by 'good men' in the past who have presented one polite face and then turned around and said something incredibly damaging. If your date brings up a gender-based social issue, agree with her that it is an injustice (obviously this is only if you do actually agree), don't rely on her to read your mind or make assumptions.
posted by WidgetAlley at 12:56 PM on November 4, 2014 [5 favorites]
This may be something that benefits you further along the relationship path than on first dates, but when women bring up issues that upset them, do not minimize their anger or sadness, even if it makes you uncomfortable. Do not offer explanations or excuses. Just. Listen. And say something like, "That totally sucks and it shouldn't have happened, I'm sorry you're hurting."
And, this one has been a big issue for me and my current SO, do not assume that they know you agree with them when they present a gender issue. Do not assume that they can make the intuitive leap from, "Well, I'm a good person, so she must know that I don't agree with catcalling." We can't. We can't make that leap. We have been burned too many times by 'good men' in the past who have presented one polite face and then turned around and said something incredibly damaging. If your date brings up a gender-based social issue, agree with her that it is an injustice (obviously this is only if you do actually agree), don't rely on her to read your mind or make assumptions.
posted by WidgetAlley at 12:56 PM on November 4, 2014 [5 favorites]
just want you to listen and not solve their problems
Especially because men who do this often offer "solutions" that the majority of women know to be useless, but they feel that their masculine authority has hit on a perfect magical end to all problems. (This is not aimed at you, RafikiGuy!) More: check out how every thread ever about street harassment results in "just learn self defense!" and "take a cab!" and "never walk alone or after dark or outdoors!" as if these are shining insights.
If you feel like offering a woman advice, think SEVERAL TIMES about whether it is likely that you have hit on a too-simple solution to an extremely complicated problem.
Also, seconding getting rid of "gentleman" as your rubric. It was a fraught term for the Victorians, for pity's sake, and by now it is so loaded with baggage as to be absolutely counterproductive.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 12:56 PM on November 4, 2014 [8 favorites]
Especially because men who do this often offer "solutions" that the majority of women know to be useless, but they feel that their masculine authority has hit on a perfect magical end to all problems. (This is not aimed at you, RafikiGuy!) More: check out how every thread ever about street harassment results in "just learn self defense!" and "take a cab!" and "never walk alone or after dark or outdoors!" as if these are shining insights.
If you feel like offering a woman advice, think SEVERAL TIMES about whether it is likely that you have hit on a too-simple solution to an extremely complicated problem.
Also, seconding getting rid of "gentleman" as your rubric. It was a fraught term for the Victorians, for pity's sake, and by now it is so loaded with baggage as to be absolutely counterproductive.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 12:56 PM on November 4, 2014 [8 favorites]
RafikiGuy brings up a good point,
Sometimes, humans want empathy and commiseration, and sometimes, they want you to solve their problem. Being able to tell which thing a person wants, and to be able to provide it appropriately, takes some skill.
posted by Flipping_Hades_Terwilliger at 1:30 PM on November 4, 2014 [7 favorites]
Best advice I ever had (from my wife) was that sometimes women just want you to listen and not solve their problems, which seems to be a male instinct. Not ever issue has a solution (or needs one).but I think it could be better framed as a difference between personality types than between genders and gendered "instincts".
Sometimes, humans want empathy and commiseration, and sometimes, they want you to solve their problem. Being able to tell which thing a person wants, and to be able to provide it appropriately, takes some skill.
posted by Flipping_Hades_Terwilliger at 1:30 PM on November 4, 2014 [7 favorites]
I am a woman who did a lot of Online Dating. I chose to go out with men who seemed to recognize me as a fellow person, rather than as a woman. This seems super obvious, but it's a big deal. Also important to note that this doesn't preclude gender-based sexual and romantic attraction. (I guess what I mean is that I am a woman, I'm just a person first.)
Is the reason that dating is hard for guys, simply because a lot of us don't really know how to treat women as equals and as humans?
Certainly part of it. I think another big part of it is that many of us are socialized to believe that men must initiate, and that women must be coy. But certainly a big part of it is that many women are outright afraid of men for the reasons demonstrated by Bye Felipe.
posted by i_am_a_fiesta at 2:12 PM on November 4, 2014
Is the reason that dating is hard for guys, simply because a lot of us don't really know how to treat women as equals and as humans?
Certainly part of it. I think another big part of it is that many of us are socialized to believe that men must initiate, and that women must be coy. But certainly a big part of it is that many women are outright afraid of men for the reasons demonstrated by Bye Felipe.
posted by i_am_a_fiesta at 2:12 PM on November 4, 2014
And, to illustrate the remarkable diversity of women, contrary to Michele in California's suggestion to drop dating in favor of friendship, my own preference is for dating over making friends as a conduit toward relationships. (And her opinion is just as valid as mine.)
I prefer it because everything is above board: dating (especially online) means that the people you meet have declared themselves interested in a possible relationship. You're starting from a pool of candidates whom you know to be available and interested (regardless of whether or not you end up working out).
The friendship to relationship model can be really fraught because one person is interested but the other isn't, and for women in particular, it often results in realizing that your friend was never really interested in being just friends anyway, which can be frustrating and demoralizing.
With dating, by contrast, you know where you stand.
posted by ocherdraco at 2:15 PM on November 4, 2014 [6 favorites]
I prefer it because everything is above board: dating (especially online) means that the people you meet have declared themselves interested in a possible relationship. You're starting from a pool of candidates whom you know to be available and interested (regardless of whether or not you end up working out).
The friendship to relationship model can be really fraught because one person is interested but the other isn't, and for women in particular, it often results in realizing that your friend was never really interested in being just friends anyway, which can be frustrating and demoralizing.
With dating, by contrast, you know where you stand.
posted by ocherdraco at 2:15 PM on November 4, 2014 [6 favorites]
I am only going to pop in to briefly to try to clarify that my only point was that if your explicit goal is to get to genuinely know them, then perhaps dating is not the right path. If your goal is something else, which is totally valid, no problem.
And maybe if your real goal is something else, you (the OP) would be less frustrated if you clarified for yourself exactly what that is instead of having a stated goal and potentially conflicting path forward. In which case, this might be a case of "I want to think of myself as a nice guy and I think nice guys do x, but what I really want is sex and for some reason I have some kind of idea that that's not really an okay goal and I am getting hung up on that."
I don't have any problem with a man wanting sex (or a romantic relationship or marriage) and trying to find a means to find a lady who will get with him for that. But that is a completely different goal from the stated goal in the question.
posted by Michele in California at 2:38 PM on November 4, 2014 [1 favorite]
And maybe if your real goal is something else, you (the OP) would be less frustrated if you clarified for yourself exactly what that is instead of having a stated goal and potentially conflicting path forward. In which case, this might be a case of "I want to think of myself as a nice guy and I think nice guys do x, but what I really want is sex and for some reason I have some kind of idea that that's not really an okay goal and I am getting hung up on that."
I don't have any problem with a man wanting sex (or a romantic relationship or marriage) and trying to find a means to find a lady who will get with him for that. But that is a completely different goal from the stated goal in the question.
posted by Michele in California at 2:38 PM on November 4, 2014 [1 favorite]
Is all hope lost for mankind?
Not while Jane Elliott is still breathing.
Racism and sexism have a great deal of behavioral overlap, and Elliott's work is a useful starting place for examining personal attitudes to both.
posted by flabdablet at 7:40 PM on November 4, 2014 [1 favorite]
Not while Jane Elliott is still breathing.
Racism and sexism have a great deal of behavioral overlap, and Elliott's work is a useful starting place for examining personal attitudes to both.
posted by flabdablet at 7:40 PM on November 4, 2014 [1 favorite]
Totally agree about talking to other men--I think that's the number one radical thing a guy can do personally, and yes I doubt it's easy to do but I think it'd make more difference than so many things, eventually, if enough did. Also yes, listening and doing your best to default to believing women about their experiences of sexism even when what they're saying sounds totally alien to you--this includes not getting kneejerk "not all men" defensive, not trying to change the subject to center around you. That's a big one too--just realizing generally the world doesn't revolve around you or your perspective alone (it sounds obvious but you'd be surprised, or at least I am, how easy it is for some dudes to not actually realize this in an everyday-humming-in-their-bones way the way women often do due to socialization/different levels of socialized otherness). I have had so many frustrating "conversations" with male peers the past couple years where suddenly they're all interested in feminism supposedly, but what that translates into is them talking at me one-sidedly (and talking, and talking...) and it's all about, if I'm given an in to speak at all, me reassuring them they're fine, they're good, whatever, and me listening to them rattle off 101 truisms (or much worse, and often, strawmen, ugh) like I have no idea for some reason even though I've been a feminist my entire life and they know that (?!). Uh...so yeah. Don't do that. I mean, not that you would, but it seems like a thing that sometimes happens and is rich in irony...
A big one I think has to do with discomfort, particularly around things like rape and abuse. If you find out someone, or multiple people, have come forward to say someone has abused or raped or grievously harmed them, be truly open to the notion it's true instead of defaulting to a "how can that be, I like him, does not compute" (either as a famous person or an actual friend or family member). It's really hard to accept this because of the cognitive dissonance. But it is this difficulty handling the dissonance that throws victims under the bus again and again and because that victimhood and how it's treated still has gendered dimensions to it it is typically a form of sexism. I admit for me this one's personal so it's hard to be cool when talking about it (I have seen the usual rote forms of victim blaming and denial and shame and people circling wagons around the perpetrator in my immediate life as well as over and over culturally my entire life and it seriously affected my sense of safety, value, and well being growing up female).
posted by ifjuly at 8:47 AM on November 5, 2014
A big one I think has to do with discomfort, particularly around things like rape and abuse. If you find out someone, or multiple people, have come forward to say someone has abused or raped or grievously harmed them, be truly open to the notion it's true instead of defaulting to a "how can that be, I like him, does not compute" (either as a famous person or an actual friend or family member). It's really hard to accept this because of the cognitive dissonance. But it is this difficulty handling the dissonance that throws victims under the bus again and again and because that victimhood and how it's treated still has gendered dimensions to it it is typically a form of sexism. I admit for me this one's personal so it's hard to be cool when talking about it (I have seen the usual rote forms of victim blaming and denial and shame and people circling wagons around the perpetrator in my immediate life as well as over and over culturally my entire life and it seriously affected my sense of safety, value, and well being growing up female).
posted by ifjuly at 8:47 AM on November 5, 2014
And to clarify, the reason I think talking to other men is so important is that it frees these issues from a cordoned-off ghetto women think about and talk about, that it's solely "women's issues" and becomes more a humanity issue. It also gets to the heart of how so much of why this stuff prevails is that it's uncomfortable and painful, uneasy work to confront and think about and deal with (and hence doing so is met with understandable resistance--it's unpleasant at first for sure...I spent the early days of my solidifying it and naming it unhappy and frustrated), and for the women it affects it's not something they can just escape dealing with but for sympathetic men too often it's like traveling to a place that's uncomfortable by choice if they feel like it, and leaving when it's too uncomfortable. Don't make it social justice tourism, I guess. Being willing to inhabit it and realize it affects everybody and hence everybody can talk about it and try to change it is important.
posted by ifjuly at 9:06 AM on November 5, 2014
posted by ifjuly at 9:06 AM on November 5, 2014
solely "women's issues"
Elliott makes the excellent point that putting the responsibility for fixing oppression on the oppressed is completely unjust.
That doesn't stop it being frequently expressed as desirable, e.g. "if Muslims want people to stop treating them all like terrorists it's up to them to rein in their extremists" etc.
Oppression causes social stresses and fractures that ultimately hurt everybody. It's absolutely a humanity issue.
posted by flabdablet at 10:20 AM on November 5, 2014
Elliott makes the excellent point that putting the responsibility for fixing oppression on the oppressed is completely unjust.
That doesn't stop it being frequently expressed as desirable, e.g. "if Muslims want people to stop treating them all like terrorists it's up to them to rein in their extremists" etc.
Oppression causes social stresses and fractures that ultimately hurt everybody. It's absolutely a humanity issue.
posted by flabdablet at 10:20 AM on November 5, 2014
...sorry I didn't see this was an ancient thread. Nevermind!...
posted by bitteschoen at 4:17 PM on December 28, 2014
posted by bitteschoen at 4:17 PM on December 28, 2014
One of the biggest causes of misogyny is simply that Society forces men to hate Weakness. Weakness has a lot of overlap with Femininity. Being feminine is, traditionally, being subservient, being accommodating, being nice, being selfless.
"You throw like a girl."
"Grow a pair."
Men are taught 1) it's weak to cry 2) it's weak to talk about your feelings.
When a man encounters Feminine Woman, his beliefs are in his subconscious. She seems helpless in ways he has been conditioned to believe shameful. "Help me with my flat tire." "There's a mouse."
Society says that the only people who can be Weak are women, and even then, they better subscribe to the strings attached to being a Woman to be a fully realized person and not an anomaly.
Men too are victims in some ways of this strange conditioning. Hopefully one day it's okay for men and women to do everything equally, including raising a child fulltime.
Note: although women are saddled with having to give birth to kids, men unfortunately have to deal with testosterone, which is basically a stress hormone and an evolutionary byproduct of them being the Fighter of the two genders.
posted by kinoeye at 9:07 PM on November 3, 2015
"You throw like a girl."
"Grow a pair."
Men are taught 1) it's weak to cry 2) it's weak to talk about your feelings.
When a man encounters Feminine Woman, his beliefs are in his subconscious. She seems helpless in ways he has been conditioned to believe shameful. "Help me with my flat tire." "There's a mouse."
Society says that the only people who can be Weak are women, and even then, they better subscribe to the strings attached to being a Woman to be a fully realized person and not an anomaly.
Men too are victims in some ways of this strange conditioning. Hopefully one day it's okay for men and women to do everything equally, including raising a child fulltime.
Note: although women are saddled with having to give birth to kids, men unfortunately have to deal with testosterone, which is basically a stress hormone and an evolutionary byproduct of them being the Fighter of the two genders.
posted by kinoeye at 9:07 PM on November 3, 2015
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This thread is closed to new comments.
As for dating: make your intentions and interests clear, don't be pushy about anything, don't take it personally if it doesn't work out. Beyond that, the fact that you give a shit about this issue at all is a pretty good sign.
posted by showbiz_liz at 10:28 AM on November 4, 2014 [48 favorites]