Determining the limit on how much to "help" family
October 20, 2014 5:49 PM Subscribe
How does one determine how much to help family (primarily financially) and where to draw the line? What about the ensuing guilt?
I have an older sibling that is the stereotypical black sheep of the family. She graduated high school 15 years ago and has gone from odd job to odd job, quitting or getting fired from all of them and is currently unemployed. She had a few arrests for minor drug offenses (marijuana) almost a decade ago.
It seems like a clear cut case for some tough love, but I have a nephew that complicates things. When she had him a few years ago, I thought she would finally straighten up and act like a responsible adult. Though in some ways she has improved, she continually needs assistance of one form or another.
My mother has acted as her safety net for her entire life, dwindling her own retirement savings. I've done things to help including shipping Christmas presents for my nephew every year since birth so she can have extra presents to give him, buying her a car at one point, and paying for an attorney to ensure she didn't lose custody during a divorce. Over the past five years, I've spent close to $15k to make sure that my nephew has a better life than I did as a child.
We grew up poor, but I worked my way through college, and have a job that pays about twice the average salary where I live. I also have a serious girlfriend and plan on getting married in the next year or two. We're planning on having children of our own at some point.
Right now the car I bought her is broken down, and I could afford to repair it. I haven't been asked for the money yet, but I expect it's coming. I didn't sign up to financially support my sibling for the rest of my life, but I feel incredibly guilty saying no for things that will improve my nephews life.
I have an older sibling that is the stereotypical black sheep of the family. She graduated high school 15 years ago and has gone from odd job to odd job, quitting or getting fired from all of them and is currently unemployed. She had a few arrests for minor drug offenses (marijuana) almost a decade ago.
It seems like a clear cut case for some tough love, but I have a nephew that complicates things. When she had him a few years ago, I thought she would finally straighten up and act like a responsible adult. Though in some ways she has improved, she continually needs assistance of one form or another.
My mother has acted as her safety net for her entire life, dwindling her own retirement savings. I've done things to help including shipping Christmas presents for my nephew every year since birth so she can have extra presents to give him, buying her a car at one point, and paying for an attorney to ensure she didn't lose custody during a divorce. Over the past five years, I've spent close to $15k to make sure that my nephew has a better life than I did as a child.
We grew up poor, but I worked my way through college, and have a job that pays about twice the average salary where I live. I also have a serious girlfriend and plan on getting married in the next year or two. We're planning on having children of our own at some point.
Right now the car I bought her is broken down, and I could afford to repair it. I haven't been asked for the money yet, but I expect it's coming. I didn't sign up to financially support my sibling for the rest of my life, but I feel incredibly guilty saying no for things that will improve my nephews life.
This is such a hard thing for a lot of us. What we do is set aside a relatively small amount every month into a family emergency fund. When we get the call, our response depends on how much is in the fund. We also feel like it's necessary to NOT give the full amount requested because we feel like it forces the asker to be more proactive in solving their own problems. So we give half or a quarter of what they say is needed. Somehow we feel like this is helping more than just handing over X amount whenever they ask for it.
posted by raisingsand at 6:07 PM on October 20, 2014
posted by raisingsand at 6:07 PM on October 20, 2014
Perhaps your sister should have lost custody, if your nephew's father is in better shape as a parent. Your sister has no impetus to change because she has her family to bail her ass out.
Tell your mother and tell your sister, "I can't afford to help out financially." And leave it at that. You are not obligated to bail your sister out, especially if she's not lifting a finger to help herself.
Not only does your sister need some tough love, your mom does too, or else YOU'RE her retirement plan.
So model healthy family behavior and encourage your Mom to do the same. "Mom, I'm not giving Cynthia any more money and I suggest that you stop as well. Clearly it's not going anywhere good."
Your nephew has a father, and one who had a chance at custody to the point where your sister was worried, that should be the person who should be supporting your nephew.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 6:11 PM on October 20, 2014 [7 favorites]
Tell your mother and tell your sister, "I can't afford to help out financially." And leave it at that. You are not obligated to bail your sister out, especially if she's not lifting a finger to help herself.
Not only does your sister need some tough love, your mom does too, or else YOU'RE her retirement plan.
So model healthy family behavior and encourage your Mom to do the same. "Mom, I'm not giving Cynthia any more money and I suggest that you stop as well. Clearly it's not going anywhere good."
Your nephew has a father, and one who had a chance at custody to the point where your sister was worried, that should be the person who should be supporting your nephew.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 6:11 PM on October 20, 2014 [7 favorites]
It seems your sister missed out on skills you have naturally and/or were lucky enough to value and worked hard to acquire.
Your sister? She's different.
Are you female? Or male?
I'm female. When I was younger, I would have pitched a fit if anyone suggested I had a tougher road to travel because of my gender. Now on the other side of 40, I know this is true.
I don't know how your sister acquires the meaningful skills she needs. I know she needs them. I know that growing up poor and female, she's probably got a lot of bad personal experiences + learned helplessness to overcome.
Maybe there is some sort of counseling or adult education she can access? I bet for her, one of the biggest hurdles might be childcare while she attends counseling or education programs.
I guess what I'm saying is that there are heaps of tiny obstacles she's facing (either real or imagined) that you probably can not conceive of if you haven't walked in her shoes.
I hope others know of resources. I'm simply pointing out that your sister needs some sort of "back to basics" type skill set she missed growing up if she has any chance of turning things around and becoming self-sufficient.
It's great that you asked this question. Good luck.
posted by jbenben at 6:12 PM on October 20, 2014 [16 favorites]
Your sister? She's different.
Are you female? Or male?
I'm female. When I was younger, I would have pitched a fit if anyone suggested I had a tougher road to travel because of my gender. Now on the other side of 40, I know this is true.
I don't know how your sister acquires the meaningful skills she needs. I know she needs them. I know that growing up poor and female, she's probably got a lot of bad personal experiences + learned helplessness to overcome.
Maybe there is some sort of counseling or adult education she can access? I bet for her, one of the biggest hurdles might be childcare while she attends counseling or education programs.
I guess what I'm saying is that there are heaps of tiny obstacles she's facing (either real or imagined) that you probably can not conceive of if you haven't walked in her shoes.
I hope others know of resources. I'm simply pointing out that your sister needs some sort of "back to basics" type skill set she missed growing up if she has any chance of turning things around and becoming self-sufficient.
It's great that you asked this question. Good luck.
posted by jbenben at 6:12 PM on October 20, 2014 [16 favorites]
I am posting from a sock puppet to protect the identity of family members, etc. I just don't want them to ever run into things that I say about them that could remotely hurt their feelings.
I have a sibling that has commonalities with your sibling.
This was the solution that worked best for my sibling: Finding and getting her access to resources, including disability. There is nothing that suggests (or does not suggest) it in your question, but my sibling could also just not hold a job. She also has a few mental illness diagnoses. We found a lawyer for her that collected money when she was finally qualified for disability, but at least it stopped the infinite worries of how other family members would help out. If your sibling does have anything that you consider a diagnosis of a mental illness (not just you, but a psychiatrist, etc.), I would look into those resources.
I have offered my sibling all kind of things to make her life easier. Some of the things are my own priority for this sibling (for example, therapy) or other things that I know that she would want/enjoy. Small things to larger things -- because I can and want her to enjoy life, too. I could see myself rationalizing a car repair, although within reason.
I will also say that I learned the hard way that you can't save people. This answer is not related to a sibling, but I tried to help out another family member with money and in the end, a large part of it was lost. Moving forward, I now ask the question about where a person is psychologically so to speak. If they got into a situation, will they have tools to get out? What will they truly do with what you give them?
posted by Dances with sock puppets at 6:17 PM on October 20, 2014 [1 favorite]
I have a sibling that has commonalities with your sibling.
This was the solution that worked best for my sibling: Finding and getting her access to resources, including disability. There is nothing that suggests (or does not suggest) it in your question, but my sibling could also just not hold a job. She also has a few mental illness diagnoses. We found a lawyer for her that collected money when she was finally qualified for disability, but at least it stopped the infinite worries of how other family members would help out. If your sibling does have anything that you consider a diagnosis of a mental illness (not just you, but a psychiatrist, etc.), I would look into those resources.
I have offered my sibling all kind of things to make her life easier. Some of the things are my own priority for this sibling (for example, therapy) or other things that I know that she would want/enjoy. Small things to larger things -- because I can and want her to enjoy life, too. I could see myself rationalizing a car repair, although within reason.
I will also say that I learned the hard way that you can't save people. This answer is not related to a sibling, but I tried to help out another family member with money and in the end, a large part of it was lost. Moving forward, I now ask the question about where a person is psychologically so to speak. If they got into a situation, will they have tools to get out? What will they truly do with what you give them?
posted by Dances with sock puppets at 6:17 PM on October 20, 2014 [1 favorite]
It's impossible to answer this: she hasn't even made the request for repair funds yet.
You also seem determined to paint your sister in quite a condemnatory way. The minor drug arrests were 10 years ago; if she's kept her record clean since then, that's an achievement. She has one kid by her ex-husband, not 5 by different dads. You admit she has "improved in some ways", yet you seem determined that any aid you give is focused solely on your nephew to the exclusion of your sister.
Can you fight clear of resentment and judgement long enough to sit down with your sister (maybe with your mother there too) and talk to her about her plans and aspirations? Maybe there are meaningful ways you could assist her to become more self-sufficient. Paying for her to take a useful course, or for some counselling sessions, might be a better investment than Christmas gifts.
On preview, jbenben has it:
posted by Pallas Athena at 6:21 PM on October 20, 2014 [18 favorites]
You also seem determined to paint your sister in quite a condemnatory way. The minor drug arrests were 10 years ago; if she's kept her record clean since then, that's an achievement. She has one kid by her ex-husband, not 5 by different dads. You admit she has "improved in some ways", yet you seem determined that any aid you give is focused solely on your nephew to the exclusion of your sister.
Can you fight clear of resentment and judgement long enough to sit down with your sister (maybe with your mother there too) and talk to her about her plans and aspirations? Maybe there are meaningful ways you could assist her to become more self-sufficient. Paying for her to take a useful course, or for some counselling sessions, might be a better investment than Christmas gifts.
On preview, jbenben has it:
I guess what I'm saying is that there are heaps of tiny obstacles she's facing (either real or imagined) that you probably can not conceive of if you haven't walked in her shoes.To answer your question: You have no obligation to provide financial assistance and it is your absolute prerogative to say no. On the other hand, being a single parent is a huge, huge financial drain. Morally speaking, this is what family is for.
posted by Pallas Athena at 6:21 PM on October 20, 2014 [18 favorites]
As much as I am in favor of Tough Love, I also think that there are some circumstances that can be extremely difficult to bounce back from.
This class of question has shown up here before, and people have mentioned - and I believe them - that letting someone go homeless in the name of "tough love" is a mistake. Like, you want to be tough, but you don't want to rip their legs off.
I would at least think about paying for car repairs. As in: "I'll pay to get your car fixed, and then that's the end of the money". I do not know your sister's unique circumstances, but in many parts of the country having a car can make a serious difference as to whether or not she can hold a job.
posted by doctor tough love at 6:35 PM on October 20, 2014 [9 favorites]
This class of question has shown up here before, and people have mentioned - and I believe them - that letting someone go homeless in the name of "tough love" is a mistake. Like, you want to be tough, but you don't want to rip their legs off.
I would at least think about paying for car repairs. As in: "I'll pay to get your car fixed, and then that's the end of the money". I do not know your sister's unique circumstances, but in many parts of the country having a car can make a serious difference as to whether or not she can hold a job.
posted by doctor tough love at 6:35 PM on October 20, 2014 [9 favorites]
Some people really do not have the normal skill sets assumed of an adult despite their age. Really we should have better skills testing and services to adults can mastery of areas they struggle with as well as ongoing services for those who are not currently (or ever) able to master some of the normal functioning associated with adulthood. The nice thing if we improve such community and and social programs is that they can come with specific reasonable limits that comes with requirements to work on areas that can be improved, assessment and understanding of areas that are not currently mastered and assistance services needed (such an an outside source to manage and disperse finances for purchases that make sense and match needs rather than excess).
While many people might think that adults who are chronically poor and struggle financially are innately worse people and should be allowed to flounder, this is contrary to evidence that skilled support services and NOT becoming homeless or having to sell your body as in sex servitude to feed your children is actually a better way to help people become self sufficient. Often families do not have the skill sets to do this effectively, and as you say, you grew up poor, your sister was unlikely to get diagnosed or support services with any learning disabilities or emotional problems she may have been coping with that additional support would have been helpful with.
To ease some of the guilt, this is not your fault. First place some of the responsibility where it belongs, on a society that is based in inequality and that denied your family services that are perfectly available to those with money. This may help divert some of your attention from blaming your sister or yourself. Neither of whome is to blame that our culture wrongfully believes that homelessness and starvation are good solutions to self sufficiency problems, learning disabilities, functional disabilities, and other obstacles to self sufficiency (including the grinding brutality of poverty that makes people function worse and worse over time not better and better).
So when you say no, you can be very upset over the situation but just be honest about how much you feel able to help, and also realize that drowning people can be very desperate, this is not her fault for asking and it's also totally ok for you to not know how to help effectively or to find her pressure to help more than you are able overwhelming and you need to stop interacting with the situation entirely.
If there was abuse in the previous relationship unemployment and disability are often accompanied for years after leaving an abusive spouse especially where custody is shared and the abuse may essentially continue with the ex-partner finding ways to make threats or leave the non-abusive partner concerned for their and their child's safety. If you want to search out resources in her area look for programs that work with repairing families self sufficiency.
I have found that in families where there is a lot of poverty or dysfunction the few family members who crack and break get heaped with a TON of condemnation and shaming and blame for not being able to endure harsh and unsupportive conditions that didn't meet their needs in the same way everyone else managed to. Often the scape goat actually serves a vital role in the family making the other members of the family feel successful in comparison and carrying the weight of the families helplessness and pain facing ongoing suffering and poverty/strife and the flaws they themselves have exhibited along the way. They may also be the ones who carry and live out the suffering feelings of the family so that everyone else can function.
When you give her help and also another dose of the stink eye and condemnation, that is poison right there, she's probably been carrying for years. I don't know the history or back story, but poverty can destroy some people and just because some survive doesn't mean others will. Or that it's because they aren't trying. Having volunteered in occupational therapy services I wish more families and current support services were set up to offer tapered and slow skill building activities to practice building areas of poor development rather than simply the therapy/worksheet model that is so popular especially for poor people and it's not very effective at skill building. Many people who are seeking and using services are not getting results and they get blamed often by providers and family alike for the failure of the services they seek.
There may be services available for free at a domestic violence center if there was abuse in her past relationship and if your lucky there may be some services for helping families develop economic skillsets in your area. You don't mention where you are but I can help you search if you like. If your sister is not already using programs like section 8, food stamps etc you also might let her know she has your support for using such programs and there is no shame in using help. If you wanted you could even tell her you'd be available to talk about a long term stability plan if she's willing to get other resources involved to make sure she has the support she needs. If she is spending the money on drugs, it's completely fair to mention drug rehab programs and that this will help her financial stability.
posted by xarnop at 6:37 PM on October 20, 2014 [16 favorites]
While many people might think that adults who are chronically poor and struggle financially are innately worse people and should be allowed to flounder, this is contrary to evidence that skilled support services and NOT becoming homeless or having to sell your body as in sex servitude to feed your children is actually a better way to help people become self sufficient. Often families do not have the skill sets to do this effectively, and as you say, you grew up poor, your sister was unlikely to get diagnosed or support services with any learning disabilities or emotional problems she may have been coping with that additional support would have been helpful with.
To ease some of the guilt, this is not your fault. First place some of the responsibility where it belongs, on a society that is based in inequality and that denied your family services that are perfectly available to those with money. This may help divert some of your attention from blaming your sister or yourself. Neither of whome is to blame that our culture wrongfully believes that homelessness and starvation are good solutions to self sufficiency problems, learning disabilities, functional disabilities, and other obstacles to self sufficiency (including the grinding brutality of poverty that makes people function worse and worse over time not better and better).
So when you say no, you can be very upset over the situation but just be honest about how much you feel able to help, and also realize that drowning people can be very desperate, this is not her fault for asking and it's also totally ok for you to not know how to help effectively or to find her pressure to help more than you are able overwhelming and you need to stop interacting with the situation entirely.
If there was abuse in the previous relationship unemployment and disability are often accompanied for years after leaving an abusive spouse especially where custody is shared and the abuse may essentially continue with the ex-partner finding ways to make threats or leave the non-abusive partner concerned for their and their child's safety. If you want to search out resources in her area look for programs that work with repairing families self sufficiency.
I have found that in families where there is a lot of poverty or dysfunction the few family members who crack and break get heaped with a TON of condemnation and shaming and blame for not being able to endure harsh and unsupportive conditions that didn't meet their needs in the same way everyone else managed to. Often the scape goat actually serves a vital role in the family making the other members of the family feel successful in comparison and carrying the weight of the families helplessness and pain facing ongoing suffering and poverty/strife and the flaws they themselves have exhibited along the way. They may also be the ones who carry and live out the suffering feelings of the family so that everyone else can function.
When you give her help and also another dose of the stink eye and condemnation, that is poison right there, she's probably been carrying for years. I don't know the history or back story, but poverty can destroy some people and just because some survive doesn't mean others will. Or that it's because they aren't trying. Having volunteered in occupational therapy services I wish more families and current support services were set up to offer tapered and slow skill building activities to practice building areas of poor development rather than simply the therapy/worksheet model that is so popular especially for poor people and it's not very effective at skill building. Many people who are seeking and using services are not getting results and they get blamed often by providers and family alike for the failure of the services they seek.
There may be services available for free at a domestic violence center if there was abuse in her past relationship and if your lucky there may be some services for helping families develop economic skillsets in your area. You don't mention where you are but I can help you search if you like. If your sister is not already using programs like section 8, food stamps etc you also might let her know she has your support for using such programs and there is no shame in using help. If you wanted you could even tell her you'd be available to talk about a long term stability plan if she's willing to get other resources involved to make sure she has the support she needs. If she is spending the money on drugs, it's completely fair to mention drug rehab programs and that this will help her financial stability.
posted by xarnop at 6:37 PM on October 20, 2014 [16 favorites]
Raisingsand has a good idea (possibly one I should institute).
I don't lend any money to my family member any more. I'll still gift it, in an emergency.
I've spent a few thousand dollars on things that meant he had a roof over his head, and a good school (guarantor for leases etc, eh, it was worth it).
I mostly get things directly for my nephew. Not extra Christmas presents, not presents in someone elses name (my presents aren't really better than the ones he gets from anyone else - most are second hand books, the more expensive are musical instruments, paying for something he'll use over the year etc. Still kind of boring, relatively). I pay for his trips to visit family, for after school care for him, for sports activities etc. I look after him - for a couple of weeks at a time in school holidays.
In a few years, I'm thinking the major expense will be braces for his teeth.
My relative doesn't have a car, but, I'd probably end up in your situation if the car meant necessities for him (couldn't get to school, or meant losing a job for mother). It'd be an absolute beater though.
I think one of the main things is I think my nephew has the security of knowing that if things turn to custard, I will be there for them, and I will sort it out. Very worst case, he knows I'd be there to look after him.
Actually, that's a very common question from kids - who will look after me if something happens to my parent?
If he knows that you and the Grandmother will be the safety net, not for his mum, not for everything, but for the worst case, he will have some emotional security, and he won't panic when hearing about the financial drama of the week, because there will always be the financial crises of the week.
Part of the reason I've clawed myself into the slightly better position I am in, is because I figured out VERY young that when we had an extra $20, I would have preferred that my mother keep $20 for an emergency, rather than spending it on a special treat.
I think I learned that I didn't want to be poor, my family member learned that she didn't want to act like/be thought of, as poor. Very different effect when it comes to budgeting.
Still kinda hard to get a read on your situation - make sure he's actually ok, but, not having the same presents as other kids isn't as big a deal in the long run. Make sure he's secure, but, he doesn't need to be saved from being poor via stuff.
Actually, to get really explicit on what I think I've been subconsciously modelling - it's better to have money on hand to avoid a stressful experience, than to spend it on treats. So, my presents are pretty lame, but I am trying to reduce my nephews experience of stress as a child, and investing in stuff that means he has more opportunity as an adult.
posted by Elysum at 6:39 PM on October 20, 2014 [4 favorites]
I don't lend any money to my family member any more. I'll still gift it, in an emergency.
I've spent a few thousand dollars on things that meant he had a roof over his head, and a good school (guarantor for leases etc, eh, it was worth it).
I mostly get things directly for my nephew. Not extra Christmas presents, not presents in someone elses name (my presents aren't really better than the ones he gets from anyone else - most are second hand books, the more expensive are musical instruments, paying for something he'll use over the year etc. Still kind of boring, relatively). I pay for his trips to visit family, for after school care for him, for sports activities etc. I look after him - for a couple of weeks at a time in school holidays.
In a few years, I'm thinking the major expense will be braces for his teeth.
My relative doesn't have a car, but, I'd probably end up in your situation if the car meant necessities for him (couldn't get to school, or meant losing a job for mother). It'd be an absolute beater though.
I think one of the main things is I think my nephew has the security of knowing that if things turn to custard, I will be there for them, and I will sort it out. Very worst case, he knows I'd be there to look after him.
Actually, that's a very common question from kids - who will look after me if something happens to my parent?
If he knows that you and the Grandmother will be the safety net, not for his mum, not for everything, but for the worst case, he will have some emotional security, and he won't panic when hearing about the financial drama of the week, because there will always be the financial crises of the week.
Part of the reason I've clawed myself into the slightly better position I am in, is because I figured out VERY young that when we had an extra $20, I would have preferred that my mother keep $20 for an emergency, rather than spending it on a special treat.
I think I learned that I didn't want to be poor, my family member learned that she didn't want to act like/be thought of, as poor. Very different effect when it comes to budgeting.
Still kinda hard to get a read on your situation - make sure he's actually ok, but, not having the same presents as other kids isn't as big a deal in the long run. Make sure he's secure, but, he doesn't need to be saved from being poor via stuff.
Actually, to get really explicit on what I think I've been subconsciously modelling - it's better to have money on hand to avoid a stressful experience, than to spend it on treats. So, my presents are pretty lame, but I am trying to reduce my nephews experience of stress as a child, and investing in stuff that means he has more opportunity as an adult.
posted by Elysum at 6:39 PM on October 20, 2014 [4 favorites]
One last thing: don't give your sister cash. If you decide to help her pay for the car repair, arrange to directly pay the repair facility.
posted by doctor tough love at 6:44 PM on October 20, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by doctor tough love at 6:44 PM on October 20, 2014 [1 favorite]
Slightly different point of view:
What thing do you think you can help her do to improve her long term employment prospects as a woman with a HS diploma who is the primary full-time carer of your nephew?
That is an honest question.
I mean yes, sure, people educate themselves and work themselves out of poverty every day, but it is really, really hard. It takes a lot to do that, and if everyone had the capability to just go out and do it on their own, nobody would be living in poverty. Because poverty sucks.
Is there a community college with a degree program she might be interested in, be that plumbing or automotive repair or cosmetology or whatever? Would you be willing to help her look into a programme like that?
In the interim, is she getting unemployment? SNAP/food stamps?
posted by DarlingBri at 7:41 PM on October 20, 2014
What thing do you think you can help her do to improve her long term employment prospects as a woman with a HS diploma who is the primary full-time carer of your nephew?
That is an honest question.
I mean yes, sure, people educate themselves and work themselves out of poverty every day, but it is really, really hard. It takes a lot to do that, and if everyone had the capability to just go out and do it on their own, nobody would be living in poverty. Because poverty sucks.
Is there a community college with a degree program she might be interested in, be that plumbing or automotive repair or cosmetology or whatever? Would you be willing to help her look into a programme like that?
In the interim, is she getting unemployment? SNAP/food stamps?
posted by DarlingBri at 7:41 PM on October 20, 2014
Best answer: I think it's strange that you're talking about mailing holiday gifts to your nephew, a normal practice in most families, as another unfair financial exploitation on the part of your sister. I don't know where your sister and nephew live, but at least in my city, having or not having a car can really make such a humongous difference in your ability to function, general quality of life, and basic safety that I think you really should at least offer to chip in if she asks for help. Is this going to make finding childcare for job searches hard or impossible? Can she reliably get to whatever social agencies (unemployment?) she's getting her current checks from with a small child and no vehicle? In other words will the lack of a working vehicle totally fuck up her ability to keep her life afloat because she's already someone with low executive function? Fix the car. And then forgo the expensive Christmas gifts this year.
In general though, please listen to the other posters who are talking about getting some life skills help for your sister, maybe in conjunction with your mom, instead of the current plan of unsustainable or emotionally poisonous bailouts-- the barely concealed rage throughout your post is disturbing to read. It's also almost certainly contributing to your sister's general dysfunction; family scapegoat is a self-perpetuating role, unfortunately.
Btw, you've worked hard with a deck stacked against you and you've been able to do well for yourself, but acknowledging that this might be something your sister actually Cannot do, (rather than needing to be punished for failing to do) at least at the present, doesn't take away from your accomplishments.
posted by moonlight on vermont at 8:48 PM on October 20, 2014 [4 favorites]
In general though, please listen to the other posters who are talking about getting some life skills help for your sister, maybe in conjunction with your mom, instead of the current plan of unsustainable or emotionally poisonous bailouts-- the barely concealed rage throughout your post is disturbing to read. It's also almost certainly contributing to your sister's general dysfunction; family scapegoat is a self-perpetuating role, unfortunately.
Btw, you've worked hard with a deck stacked against you and you've been able to do well for yourself, but acknowledging that this might be something your sister actually Cannot do, (rather than needing to be punished for failing to do) at least at the present, doesn't take away from your accomplishments.
posted by moonlight on vermont at 8:48 PM on October 20, 2014 [4 favorites]
Best answer: There are other ways you can help your nephew improve his life in the long term ... for example, setting up a fund to help him pay for college.
posted by phoenix_rising at 8:52 PM on October 20, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by phoenix_rising at 8:52 PM on October 20, 2014 [1 favorite]
You are NOT being judgemental or condemning. You are me 20 years ago. My sister could never get her life in order - bad childhood, bad skills, bad choices, bad luck. I fared much better and when she needed help, I helped, I felt responsible. I helped her while she took 8 years to graduate from college because I thought a college degree and a good job would turn her life around but it didn't. After she got her job she called to borrow money from me until her check came in and I said no and she hung up on me. We (husband and I) bought her cars so she could work, bailed her out of jail (so she wouldn't lose her job,) paid attorneys' fees multiple times, paid her rent, paid for medicine, let her child live with us, turned her utilities back on, paid for insurance so she could get a job, etc. It was always, every single time, an urgent matter. All the while causing a strain on my marriage because, while my husband is a generous man, he feels that none of this has really ever helped her. Other than in that minute..And it has damaged my relationship with her. She thinks I look down on her. I am tired of feeling guilty whether I help her or not. It has become unhealthy. I know she has tried to get help for her various issues for many years. And I cannot tell you how many times I have said to myself, "that is the last time I am helping." Yes, it is the duty of family to help each other out, for a time. It is not your duty to support another adult for years at the expense of your own finances, happiness or other relationships.
posted by cherrybounce at 11:41 PM on October 20, 2014 [14 favorites]
posted by cherrybounce at 11:41 PM on October 20, 2014 [14 favorites]
I agree with the poster above that your sister might do well to investigate disability. If she can't hold down a job, maybe she should be evaluated for mental health issues and, if qualified, get disability and food stamps, which would provide her a steady income. At the very least, she should be getting all the help (food stamps, Medicaid if she qualifies and her state provides it, etc.) that she is entitled to.
Does your sister have sole custody? Is the father paying child support at all? Unless your nephew's father is abusive, neglectful, incarcerated, or otherwise absolutely incapable of being in the child's life, he has to step in and help out - parents have a responsibility to their children. Again, if he's a decent dad (not abusive!) and capable, maybe he needs to share custody of your nephew?
Raisingsand has a great idea, of setting aside a fixed amount that you, your mom, and anyone else who contributes, for your sister. You can treat the Sister and Nephew Fund as an expense, like utilities or entertainment. That way, you know what you can afford, and you can say, "Sorry, Sis, we only have $X amount to spare, so anything above that, you have to find the money yourself." As for the car repair, I agree that if your sister needs that car to get around, you might consider paying for the repair this once. But pay it directly to the mechanic/shop, not your sister.
I think a balance of tough love and compassion is called for. You don't want to enable your sister or drain your own living funds for her - put on your own oxygen mask first! But if your sister is really damaged and/or dysfunctional, it might be too much to expect that she get along without help.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 2:07 AM on October 21, 2014
Does your sister have sole custody? Is the father paying child support at all? Unless your nephew's father is abusive, neglectful, incarcerated, or otherwise absolutely incapable of being in the child's life, he has to step in and help out - parents have a responsibility to their children. Again, if he's a decent dad (not abusive!) and capable, maybe he needs to share custody of your nephew?
Raisingsand has a great idea, of setting aside a fixed amount that you, your mom, and anyone else who contributes, for your sister. You can treat the Sister and Nephew Fund as an expense, like utilities or entertainment. That way, you know what you can afford, and you can say, "Sorry, Sis, we only have $X amount to spare, so anything above that, you have to find the money yourself." As for the car repair, I agree that if your sister needs that car to get around, you might consider paying for the repair this once. But pay it directly to the mechanic/shop, not your sister.
I think a balance of tough love and compassion is called for. You don't want to enable your sister or drain your own living funds for her - put on your own oxygen mask first! But if your sister is really damaged and/or dysfunctional, it might be too much to expect that she get along without help.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 2:07 AM on October 21, 2014
I think it's strange that you're talking about mailing holiday gifts to your nephew, a normal practice in most families, as another unfair financial exploitation on the part of your sister.
The OP is sending presents that sister can give to her child. The child thinks these are from mom. Presumably the idea is she can be that mom and spoil her child on Xmas.
If you have not only done so, help her with local resources.
If you helped with legal issues, then I'll guess that you know to what extent the father and his parents can or cannot help.
A car repair seems reasonable.
What are her daycare options? If the son was born a few years ago, he's probably not in school full time.
Coordinate with your mom, if you can, to limit help without leaving her high and dry.
Good luck.
posted by Lesser Shrew at 5:47 AM on October 21, 2014 [2 favorites]
The OP is sending presents that sister can give to her child. The child thinks these are from mom. Presumably the idea is she can be that mom and spoil her child on Xmas.
If you have not only done so, help her with local resources.
If you helped with legal issues, then I'll guess that you know to what extent the father and his parents can or cannot help.
A car repair seems reasonable.
What are her daycare options? If the son was born a few years ago, he's probably not in school full time.
Coordinate with your mom, if you can, to limit help without leaving her high and dry.
Good luck.
posted by Lesser Shrew at 5:47 AM on October 21, 2014 [2 favorites]
I owe you an apology about the presents comment; I misinterepreted your post. But this has been on my mind all night; I keep thinking of the other Ask a few questions down, where someone is debating the ethics of covertly monitoring her "fiercely independent" elderly FIL, who regularly gets pass-out drunk and, after two hip replacements, wanders away to sleep it off where his family cannot find him. It seemed to me in that question that the idea of "independence", the illusion of everything being OK, had reached a point where it was actively dangerous for the family. And I wonder if the situation with the presents and secretly supplying other luxuries to your sister so your nephew doesn't *feel* poor is helping to reinforce a similar illusion-- that everything is normal and not constantly on the edge of emergency, that your sister has her shit together, or, if she doesn't right now, that she's 100% capable of doing so with some applied willpower or bootstrapping rather than serious help from either you and your mom, skills training, therapy, going on disability, a social worker, whatever. I still think you should fix the car-- that's a necessity, not a luxury-- but you and your mom and sister need to have a serious come to Jesus about the reality of her situation, so that you can actually help her and your nephew, rather than what you currently feel is exploitive and unproductive "help." That, and not cutting her off, is the tough love you need to look into.
I also want to point out that in middle and upper-class families, "using your [family] as a safety net" isn't considered leeching or bad behavior, and there's often a lot of strategic moving around of money to make sure family members can get the opportunities they need to move ahead in life. That is a huge part of how the wealthier classes keep money in the family. Obviously if this is draining your working class mom's retirement fund and is imperiling your ability to provide for your own future children, that's not ok, but I don't think using money collectively within a family, with limits, is necessarily a bad thing. But you and your mom and sister need to have a plan for this; for the kind of financial assistance she's going to need while undergoing the long process (you say she's already improving) of getting on her feet-- or figuring out whether that's something she's going to realistically be capable of. Good luck.
posted by moonlight on vermont at 11:54 AM on October 21, 2014 [3 favorites]
I also want to point out that in middle and upper-class families, "using your [family] as a safety net" isn't considered leeching or bad behavior, and there's often a lot of strategic moving around of money to make sure family members can get the opportunities they need to move ahead in life. That is a huge part of how the wealthier classes keep money in the family. Obviously if this is draining your working class mom's retirement fund and is imperiling your ability to provide for your own future children, that's not ok, but I don't think using money collectively within a family, with limits, is necessarily a bad thing. But you and your mom and sister need to have a plan for this; for the kind of financial assistance she's going to need while undergoing the long process (you say she's already improving) of getting on her feet-- or figuring out whether that's something she's going to realistically be capable of. Good luck.
posted by moonlight on vermont at 11:54 AM on October 21, 2014 [3 favorites]
I'm the broken person in my family. My parents' rule of thumb is this: If the assistance required (financial or otherwise) causes no significant discomfort, psychologically or financially, they provide it. Secondarily, if the assistance prevents further psychological or financial discomfort, they provide it. And tangentially, if the assistance furthers a treatment goal, they are more likely to provide it with less weight given to personal discomfort.
Example 1: My dad bought me a cheap car so that he wouldn't have to take me everywhere. He could afford it and was interested in reducing his obligations with respect to doctor appointments, grocery shopping, etc.
Example 2: My dad buys my glasses/contacts and occasionally subsidizes prescriptions because I can't drive if I'm blind and won't survive if I don't take my drugs.
My brother made it very clear that he will in no way be providing me with any financial assistance upon my parents' demise, and to make their legal arrangements accordingly. You are of course under no obligation to provide similar assistance to your sister. However, if it wouldn't really hurt you to provide such assistance, there's no reason not to as long as it furthers her along on a goal. Reliable transportation is vital to employment and general self-sufficiency. If she were asking for, say, a new paintjob for her car or an iPhone that would be a different matter.
There is another option, too. Communication. Ask her what her problems are. Listen to her answers. Maybe her life skills aren't up to snuff and there are ways for you to help her with more than money. Emotional support and encouragement can be helpful.
posted by xyzzy at 1:18 PM on October 21, 2014 [1 favorite]
Example 1: My dad bought me a cheap car so that he wouldn't have to take me everywhere. He could afford it and was interested in reducing his obligations with respect to doctor appointments, grocery shopping, etc.
Example 2: My dad buys my glasses/contacts and occasionally subsidizes prescriptions because I can't drive if I'm blind and won't survive if I don't take my drugs.
My brother made it very clear that he will in no way be providing me with any financial assistance upon my parents' demise, and to make their legal arrangements accordingly. You are of course under no obligation to provide similar assistance to your sister. However, if it wouldn't really hurt you to provide such assistance, there's no reason not to as long as it furthers her along on a goal. Reliable transportation is vital to employment and general self-sufficiency. If she were asking for, say, a new paintjob for her car or an iPhone that would be a different matter.
There is another option, too. Communication. Ask her what her problems are. Listen to her answers. Maybe her life skills aren't up to snuff and there are ways for you to help her with more than money. Emotional support and encouragement can be helpful.
posted by xyzzy at 1:18 PM on October 21, 2014 [1 favorite]
Haaaa. Hi! I'm the broke-and-miles-in-debt single mom black sheep older sister of my family, the one who took 8 years to work her own ass through college with coffee shop jobs and who has forever been either unemployed or underemployed. My family was very much the "tough love" type growing up, essentially kicked me out of the house as soon as it was legal to do so, and let me flounder for the first decade or so with absolutely horrible life skills, relationship skills, or coping skills. I got myself into abusive relationships and had two kids outside marriage and I am officially the poster child of Fail in my family.
However, this last year since my kids' father left, my parents have become suddenly and uncharacteristically supportive. Why? Because while they believe in "tough love" for me, they don't want my kids to go through that. They helped me move, my mom babysits while I go to therapy (lo! I've been diagnosed bipolar II.) and my dad even helped me pay for a new (old) car when mine (even older) met it's final demise.
If he hadn't, I can tell you right now I would NOT have "somehow made it work." I would NOT have "pulled myself up by my bootstraps out of necessity." That's a massive steaming load of horse shit, to put it nicely. Nope. I would have been dragging my children on the bus to the grocery store, unable to drop them off with their dad to meet my court order requirements, possibly lost custody, probably lost my apartment.
I have no clue of your sisters's situation or resources, I have no clue what her actual efforts or struggles are (and no, pot charges a decade ago - what, at 23? - are really, really NOT a sign of drastic irresponsibility). And you obviously have complete right to draw your boundaries wherever the hell you want and tell her no. But the attitude of "she should just pull out of it" is a really nasty and condescending one, sorry.
posted by celtalitha at 5:50 PM on October 21, 2014 [3 favorites]
However, this last year since my kids' father left, my parents have become suddenly and uncharacteristically supportive. Why? Because while they believe in "tough love" for me, they don't want my kids to go through that. They helped me move, my mom babysits while I go to therapy (lo! I've been diagnosed bipolar II.) and my dad even helped me pay for a new (old) car when mine (even older) met it's final demise.
If he hadn't, I can tell you right now I would NOT have "somehow made it work." I would NOT have "pulled myself up by my bootstraps out of necessity." That's a massive steaming load of horse shit, to put it nicely. Nope. I would have been dragging my children on the bus to the grocery store, unable to drop them off with their dad to meet my court order requirements, possibly lost custody, probably lost my apartment.
I have no clue of your sisters's situation or resources, I have no clue what her actual efforts or struggles are (and no, pot charges a decade ago - what, at 23? - are really, really NOT a sign of drastic irresponsibility). And you obviously have complete right to draw your boundaries wherever the hell you want and tell her no. But the attitude of "she should just pull out of it" is a really nasty and condescending one, sorry.
posted by celtalitha at 5:50 PM on October 21, 2014 [3 favorites]
Best answer: I dealt with a similar issue and my husband helped me through it.
"He said if you don't help her someone else will. She will not end up on the streets, she will find a way. If you keep helping her, she will never learn for herself."
I thought it was way to harsh and I cried for hours before I could tell her no, I can't help you anymore. But now, about a year later, family parties don't consist of resentment and anger and our finances aren't eachothers business. Now when I see her I am happy to see her and our relationship is better because of it. She still makes bad choices ALL the time, but she lives with her choices and I live with mine. I am an example for my nephew. I take him a couple times a month to the park or zoo or adventures to show him that I love him and am here for him, but you can't do anything about the influence his mother has on him. draining yourself and ruining your relationship with her will only hinder the closeness of your family.
Sounds like a very difficult situation, I am sorry you have to go through this!
Good Luck!
posted by justblue22 at 5:56 PM on October 22, 2014
"He said if you don't help her someone else will. She will not end up on the streets, she will find a way. If you keep helping her, she will never learn for herself."
I thought it was way to harsh and I cried for hours before I could tell her no, I can't help you anymore. But now, about a year later, family parties don't consist of resentment and anger and our finances aren't eachothers business. Now when I see her I am happy to see her and our relationship is better because of it. She still makes bad choices ALL the time, but she lives with her choices and I live with mine. I am an example for my nephew. I take him a couple times a month to the park or zoo or adventures to show him that I love him and am here for him, but you can't do anything about the influence his mother has on him. draining yourself and ruining your relationship with her will only hinder the closeness of your family.
Sounds like a very difficult situation, I am sorry you have to go through this!
Good Luck!
posted by justblue22 at 5:56 PM on October 22, 2014
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Extra Christmas presents and car repairs are not the things that will improve your nephew's life long term.
posted by headnsouth at 5:57 PM on October 20, 2014 [10 favorites]