Public health issues and friendship issues re: childhood immunizations
October 17, 2014 8:16 PM Subscribe
How do I navigate finding and sharing information about unvaccinated populations at my local school when I am friends with at least some of these people?
I have healthy children who are 4 and 6 years old and have received their vaccinations--all of them, in the order and timing recommended by my pediatrician. I send my older daughter to our local public school in New York City and my younger child to a local preschool in a program administered by the city's department of health/education.
I was under the misimpression that it was difficult to get away with not vaccinating your children if you want them to go to public schools or publicly funded schools in New York City. That impression was shattered today when a dear friend told me that a kid at our school has mumps (I found out later that it's unconfirmed, just suspected). During the conversation, this friend admitted that neither of her children (my children's dear playmates at their respective schools) have received any vaccines. The words were, "I haven't had them vaccinated for anything."
That blew my mind. I went home and freaked out for a while about her lack of critical thinking skills (she is concerned that the vaccines could give her children autism, and she said "plenty of people haven't been getting vaccines for the last 30 years, and they are fine."). There's no way I'm going to engage her in a debate about this. I told her bluntly that I completely disagreed with her, but I'm not going to start sending her links or anything like that. She's a grown adult and a friend. I reflected on the fact that my children are immunized and healthy and that even if her children came down with something (a small chance, I know), we'd most likely be fine. I'm not worried about that--honestly.
What worries me is the lack of public acknowledgement of incomplete vaccinations in our local public school. There has been no announcement yet about the suspected case of mumps, but we have a big school festival scheduled for tomorrow, and the organizer has a six-month-old baby who will be with her. I felt awkward about it, but I called and told this woman with the baby about the suspected case of mumps just so she could be aware of it.
I feel like the wool has been lifted off my eyes, and now I am both wanting more information (what is the rate of vaccination compliance at my school) and also wanting to make sure that vulnerable people in our community (pregnant women, infants, immunocompromised people) are aware of the situation for their own safety. If my kid were vulnerable, I would want to know the specific families that are not vaccinating so that I could keep my kids away from them. I know that sounds horrible and cruel, but I hope it's clear why that would be necessary.
However, I am struggling with how to do this in a way that doesn't totally mess up my social connections with this dear friend, mentioned above, and other families in the school who don't vaccinate. I'm a key player on the PTA this year, and I don't want to alienate people or use my "power" to make people feel uncomfortable. I mean, actually I DO want this--I want to force everyone to vaccinate their children or lecture them until they see the light--but I know that any moves I make in that direction will cause difficult social issues for me.
Any advice on how to deal with this? I would especially appreciate BTDT stories from other parents who have dealt with this. Thank you in advance.
I have healthy children who are 4 and 6 years old and have received their vaccinations--all of them, in the order and timing recommended by my pediatrician. I send my older daughter to our local public school in New York City and my younger child to a local preschool in a program administered by the city's department of health/education.
I was under the misimpression that it was difficult to get away with not vaccinating your children if you want them to go to public schools or publicly funded schools in New York City. That impression was shattered today when a dear friend told me that a kid at our school has mumps (I found out later that it's unconfirmed, just suspected). During the conversation, this friend admitted that neither of her children (my children's dear playmates at their respective schools) have received any vaccines. The words were, "I haven't had them vaccinated for anything."
That blew my mind. I went home and freaked out for a while about her lack of critical thinking skills (she is concerned that the vaccines could give her children autism, and she said "plenty of people haven't been getting vaccines for the last 30 years, and they are fine."). There's no way I'm going to engage her in a debate about this. I told her bluntly that I completely disagreed with her, but I'm not going to start sending her links or anything like that. She's a grown adult and a friend. I reflected on the fact that my children are immunized and healthy and that even if her children came down with something (a small chance, I know), we'd most likely be fine. I'm not worried about that--honestly.
What worries me is the lack of public acknowledgement of incomplete vaccinations in our local public school. There has been no announcement yet about the suspected case of mumps, but we have a big school festival scheduled for tomorrow, and the organizer has a six-month-old baby who will be with her. I felt awkward about it, but I called and told this woman with the baby about the suspected case of mumps just so she could be aware of it.
I feel like the wool has been lifted off my eyes, and now I am both wanting more information (what is the rate of vaccination compliance at my school) and also wanting to make sure that vulnerable people in our community (pregnant women, infants, immunocompromised people) are aware of the situation for their own safety. If my kid were vulnerable, I would want to know the specific families that are not vaccinating so that I could keep my kids away from them. I know that sounds horrible and cruel, but I hope it's clear why that would be necessary.
However, I am struggling with how to do this in a way that doesn't totally mess up my social connections with this dear friend, mentioned above, and other families in the school who don't vaccinate. I'm a key player on the PTA this year, and I don't want to alienate people or use my "power" to make people feel uncomfortable. I mean, actually I DO want this--I want to force everyone to vaccinate their children or lecture them until they see the light--but I know that any moves I make in that direction will cause difficult social issues for me.
Any advice on how to deal with this? I would especially appreciate BTDT stories from other parents who have dealt with this. Thank you in advance.
I am disgusted by parents who don't vaccinate their children. It's a friendship ender (as bad as drunk driving) and I still don't think you can name names. I do think you could publish the percentage of unvaccinated children (per class/grade/whole school) and then try to educate people about the danger this presents.
I would also begin to slow fade this friend. It's a big deal and a selfish choice that indicates she may not be the kind of person you think she is.
posted by saradarlin at 8:53 PM on October 17, 2014 [16 favorites]
I would also begin to slow fade this friend. It's a big deal and a selfish choice that indicates she may not be the kind of person you think she is.
posted by saradarlin at 8:53 PM on October 17, 2014 [16 favorites]
Best answer: In my state, I think you have to get a form from the doctor saying you have listened to all the reasons why your kid needs to be vaccinated before you can get your kid into school without shots. This was, I think, meant to be a deterrent (easier to get the shot than endure the lecture?) but nothing insurmountable for kids with allergies or religious reasons.
I think it's fine to inquire in a general way. Specific families and so on... not so much okay. I do understand your worry (this is why I don't take my dog to the dog park) but I think getting specific information for the purpose of spreading it around so everyone knows (and somehow shame them into getting the vaccinations?) is a little over the top. People who have immunity issues already know to ask and be very careful - it is extremely likely that their doctors tell them these things regularly.
As for finding out more general overall numbers... If your state requires a form or waiver or anything, the school will likely have that on file somewhere. Could you just call up the office and say you were wondering how many kids in the school (percentage or real number, whatever they will give you or what you want) don't have shots?
Other than that, I imagine your friend might be a great way to get this information if you had not already told her you disagree with her. Though it might still be way to get the information. "Do you know how many kids don't have shots? I heard it was something like XY% and wondered if that was accurate." No blame or anything, just curiosity.
You could also try the health department. They might have broad numbers as reported by schools. Or ask your pediatrician if they have a wild guess as to the percentage of kids who leave without shots (through their own door or through all doors).
If you want to spread the word, I would suggest you talk to someone at a health department or the pediatrician and ask what works. Then, if the subject comes up, you can say why you are in favor of vaccinations, in a sharing information way (and not a blaming way). I suppose you could also offer to draft some kind of flyer or something about vaccinations that the school office might agree to mail out (or email) as a part of some other newsletter. Just a friendly information sharing thing. This would seem an ideal thing to bring up at PTA meeting, actually. "I'd like to send out a little flyer in the next newsletter about the benefits of vaccinations and what is required for a waiver." or something like that might be okay. Think general here, and not specific people or targeting people who don't vaccinate.
You can't make other people do stuff, and if you want to stay friends, you can probably be content knowing you are the best parent you can be and that your kids are likely to weather school and so on just fine since they had the shots. (Remember you're setting an example, too - your kids are watching, and if they see you educate yourself and do what you think is right, then they will learn to do the same. Don't do anything you don't want your kids to do later.).
posted by AllieTessKipp at 9:09 PM on October 17, 2014 [1 favorite]
I think it's fine to inquire in a general way. Specific families and so on... not so much okay. I do understand your worry (this is why I don't take my dog to the dog park) but I think getting specific information for the purpose of spreading it around so everyone knows (and somehow shame them into getting the vaccinations?) is a little over the top. People who have immunity issues already know to ask and be very careful - it is extremely likely that their doctors tell them these things regularly.
As for finding out more general overall numbers... If your state requires a form or waiver or anything, the school will likely have that on file somewhere. Could you just call up the office and say you were wondering how many kids in the school (percentage or real number, whatever they will give you or what you want) don't have shots?
Other than that, I imagine your friend might be a great way to get this information if you had not already told her you disagree with her. Though it might still be way to get the information. "Do you know how many kids don't have shots? I heard it was something like XY% and wondered if that was accurate." No blame or anything, just curiosity.
You could also try the health department. They might have broad numbers as reported by schools. Or ask your pediatrician if they have a wild guess as to the percentage of kids who leave without shots (through their own door or through all doors).
If you want to spread the word, I would suggest you talk to someone at a health department or the pediatrician and ask what works. Then, if the subject comes up, you can say why you are in favor of vaccinations, in a sharing information way (and not a blaming way). I suppose you could also offer to draft some kind of flyer or something about vaccinations that the school office might agree to mail out (or email) as a part of some other newsletter. Just a friendly information sharing thing. This would seem an ideal thing to bring up at PTA meeting, actually. "I'd like to send out a little flyer in the next newsletter about the benefits of vaccinations and what is required for a waiver." or something like that might be okay. Think general here, and not specific people or targeting people who don't vaccinate.
You can't make other people do stuff, and if you want to stay friends, you can probably be content knowing you are the best parent you can be and that your kids are likely to weather school and so on just fine since they had the shots. (Remember you're setting an example, too - your kids are watching, and if they see you educate yourself and do what you think is right, then they will learn to do the same. Don't do anything you don't want your kids to do later.).
posted by AllieTessKipp at 9:09 PM on October 17, 2014 [1 favorite]
OK, so are you thinking that you will somehow be given access to the vaccine/medical records for all the children who attend your kid’s school? That may be a stretch, even for a “key player” in the PTA. In your plans to announce which families are vaccinating, and which are not, how do you plan on sorting out who is not vaccinating for medical reasons (severe allergies, etc) and who has other reasons?
Look I live in West LA and have elementary aged kids and I hate it that rates of unvaccinated children are growing and growing (http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2014/09/wealthy-la-schools-vaccination-rates-are-as-low-as-south-sudans/380252/).
But I think your time and energy is better spent doing something positive, something you can actually accomplish (as opposed to trying to ID and spread the word on every family that isn’t vaxxing).
Why don’t you have a doctor or some public health official come in and give a presentation about the importance of childhood vaccines? Or work with the school to develop some literature to send home to parents? Or figure out a way to help low income parents get their kids caught up with their shots? I think any of these things would be more realistic/effective than to start some kind of shunning campaign.
posted by aviatrix at 9:14 PM on October 17, 2014 [1 favorite]
Look I live in West LA and have elementary aged kids and I hate it that rates of unvaccinated children are growing and growing (http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2014/09/wealthy-la-schools-vaccination-rates-are-as-low-as-south-sudans/380252/).
But I think your time and energy is better spent doing something positive, something you can actually accomplish (as opposed to trying to ID and spread the word on every family that isn’t vaxxing).
Why don’t you have a doctor or some public health official come in and give a presentation about the importance of childhood vaccines? Or work with the school to develop some literature to send home to parents? Or figure out a way to help low income parents get their kids caught up with their shots? I think any of these things would be more realistic/effective than to start some kind of shunning campaign.
posted by aviatrix at 9:14 PM on October 17, 2014 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Sorry, I realize that I made it sound like I'm looking for a way to name names and out people. I'm just looking for a way to educate myself and the protect the community while causing the least amount of social strife. Obviously publicizing a list of non-vaccinated children and what classes they are in would be a very bad idea, and I know that I personally would never get access to that information anyway.
But I would hope that a pregnant teacher, for example (as my child's teacher is) would be made aware if children in her class are unvaccinated (as is the case, which I realized today). This may have already happened--the teacher left school before the end of the day. There are some vulnerable populations that are just typical people who are not constantly vigilant about diseases that we have tamped down to the point of extreme rarity through vaccines--little babies and pregnant people, for example.
Also, I apologize for making myself sound like a PTA poobah. I mentioned my role because I feel like I *can't* actually say anything about this publicly--I don't just represent myself, I represent the PTA to other parents. It would be wrong to publicly voice my concerns and make others uncomfortable and sow dissent in the community. And yet I do feel a call to some sort of action. I hope this makes more sense.
posted by tk at 9:25 PM on October 17, 2014 [1 favorite]
But I would hope that a pregnant teacher, for example (as my child's teacher is) would be made aware if children in her class are unvaccinated (as is the case, which I realized today). This may have already happened--the teacher left school before the end of the day. There are some vulnerable populations that are just typical people who are not constantly vigilant about diseases that we have tamped down to the point of extreme rarity through vaccines--little babies and pregnant people, for example.
Also, I apologize for making myself sound like a PTA poobah. I mentioned my role because I feel like I *can't* actually say anything about this publicly--I don't just represent myself, I represent the PTA to other parents. It would be wrong to publicly voice my concerns and make others uncomfortable and sow dissent in the community. And yet I do feel a call to some sort of action. I hope this makes more sense.
posted by tk at 9:25 PM on October 17, 2014 [1 favorite]
Best answer: Do you know that the school is even aware of the suspected case? It's a public health issue, and unless it's confirmed, they can't send out notice. My children's schools here in NJ have sent out notices when there have been outbreaks of strep throat, chicken pox, lice, flu, conjunctivitis, etc. If it *is* mumps, then it definitely is going to be reported by the kid's pediatrician to NYS because they need to make sure there's no outbreak.
I most definitely feel for you, and if I were to find myself in your shoes, I would have to think long and hard about continuing friendship with this family. Maybe you want to keep it, maybe not. You might even want to talk to your pediatrician about it. You need to remember, however, that even if you don't continue to see them on a social basis, the children will still be in contact at school. They're young enough that they may not question why they're not going on play dates anymore. Here's some food for thought.
On preview, I agree with saradarlin that percentages of vaccinations might be the only thing you can do here. It might be a big wake up call for a lot of parents (both pro- and anti-vaccine). You can't blacklist families. Some may have legitimate reasons where they can't vaccinate due to medical complications (allergies, immunosuppression, etc.), religion, etc.
posted by dancinglamb at 9:31 PM on October 17, 2014 [1 favorite]
I most definitely feel for you, and if I were to find myself in your shoes, I would have to think long and hard about continuing friendship with this family. Maybe you want to keep it, maybe not. You might even want to talk to your pediatrician about it. You need to remember, however, that even if you don't continue to see them on a social basis, the children will still be in contact at school. They're young enough that they may not question why they're not going on play dates anymore. Here's some food for thought.
On preview, I agree with saradarlin that percentages of vaccinations might be the only thing you can do here. It might be a big wake up call for a lot of parents (both pro- and anti-vaccine). You can't blacklist families. Some may have legitimate reasons where they can't vaccinate due to medical complications (allergies, immunosuppression, etc.), religion, etc.
posted by dancinglamb at 9:31 PM on October 17, 2014 [1 favorite]
If you can get the percentages (health department perhaps?) you could contact a local paper. Reading it in the paper was exactly how I learned the percent of vaccinated children at a particular school in a locality I won't name was nearly 25%. I was glad to know it and I made sure my vaccines were current before I visited the area!
If your percentage is anywhere near that, once teachers know about it then finding out if they have unvaxed kids in their classes or not is pretty much a moot point -- all of them do. I don't think there'd be any way to keep your kids away short of homeschooling.
posted by yohko at 9:57 PM on October 17, 2014
If your percentage is anywhere near that, once teachers know about it then finding out if they have unvaxed kids in their classes or not is pretty much a moot point -- all of them do. I don't think there'd be any way to keep your kids away short of homeschooling.
posted by yohko at 9:57 PM on October 17, 2014
In the homeschooling communities here in Portland, herd immunity is almost a joke - and I've already seen people who *do* vaccinate ostracized, even though my own kids aren't yet school aged. It's a hugely polarizing subject.
In personal interactions, I do ask other parents if their kids are vaccinated. I especially ask childcare providers my kids see. (We vaccinate; I work with newborns; we have loved ones who are immunocompromised.) I see nothing wrong with asking after the vaccination status of your child's playmates.
I do think a flyer ostensibly about the benefits of vaccination could come across as taking advantage of your power. Honestly, you're unlikely to change people's minds that way. Instead, I'd focus on educating folks about preventing the spread of disease, and about vulnerable populations. Maybe some kind of hand washing campaign, combined with conversation about the resurgence of diseases like the measles, and how important it is to keep vulnerable people away from sick people. Maybe a note could go out in the newsletter about notifying the school when a child has a particularly contagious illness like strep or (as has been an issue here lately), Hand, Foot and Mouth. All parents, no matter their other differences, want their children to stay healthy. You can use that common ground to start these conversations.
I applaud you wanting to do something. The anti vax movement makes me nauseous.
posted by linettasky at 10:45 PM on October 17, 2014 [5 favorites]
In personal interactions, I do ask other parents if their kids are vaccinated. I especially ask childcare providers my kids see. (We vaccinate; I work with newborns; we have loved ones who are immunocompromised.) I see nothing wrong with asking after the vaccination status of your child's playmates.
I do think a flyer ostensibly about the benefits of vaccination could come across as taking advantage of your power. Honestly, you're unlikely to change people's minds that way. Instead, I'd focus on educating folks about preventing the spread of disease, and about vulnerable populations. Maybe some kind of hand washing campaign, combined with conversation about the resurgence of diseases like the measles, and how important it is to keep vulnerable people away from sick people. Maybe a note could go out in the newsletter about notifying the school when a child has a particularly contagious illness like strep or (as has been an issue here lately), Hand, Foot and Mouth. All parents, no matter their other differences, want their children to stay healthy. You can use that common ground to start these conversations.
I applaud you wanting to do something. The anti vax movement makes me nauseous.
posted by linettasky at 10:45 PM on October 17, 2014 [5 favorites]
I think that to do this without a huge personal backlash, what I personally would opt to do is work with the school district or the Board of Health or the Department of Education to generate broad, not personally identifiable statistics. The school or PTA could then report on them -- 3.27% of students at Blah School have vaccination exemptions, with the follow break-down by grade: -- with no moralising, pro-vax agenda, or position statement.
But I would hope that a pregnant teacher, for example (as my child's teacher is) would be made aware if children in her class are unvaccinated
I think this is a lot more nuanced than you are immediately assuming. This policy requires disclosure from people in vulnerable populations. At what point in her pregnancy should the teacher be told? What if she doesn't want to disclose her pregnancy until it's well advanced? What if a teacher is HIV positive and/or immunocompromised but doesn't want to disclose at all, ever, for fear of losing her job?
Anyway, under no circumstances would I suggest alerting anyone of a suspected case of anything, nor would I give anyone information about specific children or families who are not vaxed.
posted by DarlingBri at 11:55 PM on October 17, 2014
But I would hope that a pregnant teacher, for example (as my child's teacher is) would be made aware if children in her class are unvaccinated
I think this is a lot more nuanced than you are immediately assuming. This policy requires disclosure from people in vulnerable populations. At what point in her pregnancy should the teacher be told? What if she doesn't want to disclose her pregnancy until it's well advanced? What if a teacher is HIV positive and/or immunocompromised but doesn't want to disclose at all, ever, for fear of losing her job?
Anyway, under no circumstances would I suggest alerting anyone of a suspected case of anything, nor would I give anyone information about specific children or families who are not vaxed.
posted by DarlingBri at 11:55 PM on October 17, 2014
Best answer: As the mother of a child with a suppressed immune system I am very blunt when it comes to asking about vaccinations. She's only two so her contact with people is limited to those that I've already vetted. We're part of a parenting group and before we set up a playdate I say something along the lines of, "ToddlerJungle has a suppressed immune system and cannot be around kids that are not up to date on their vaccines or have been sick in the last 48 hours, even just a runny nose or mild fever, does your child fit either of those?" If they tell me they don't vaccinate I usually say something along the lines of, "Okay, well I guess we'll have to pass on the playdate, have a good day!" I've had several parents argue back to the tune of, "But my child is healthy! Vaccines are bad etc." and I just give them the, "I'm sorry, we take no chances with our daughters health." Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. It's surprising to me how many people in our area don't vaccinate (about a third!) and think we're bad for doing so. I think trying to change peoples minds isn't going to work but stressing hand washing and good hygiene is helpful in disease prevention. We have everyone wash hands when they come inside and then before snacks/meals. You'd be surprised how many kids parents don't make them wash their hands, so that might be a good thing to push via the PTA. Wash hands when you come into the classroom and after the bathroom and before snacks/lunch. Good luck.
posted by julie_of_the_jungle at 5:19 AM on October 18, 2014 [6 favorites]
posted by julie_of_the_jungle at 5:19 AM on October 18, 2014 [6 favorites]
Best answer: I want to force everyone to vaccinate their children.
The short answer is you can't. You can't legally get information about who's vaccinated and who isn't. The school absolutely should not tell you this information because those are confidential records.
It's a weird, entangled bunch of legalities, but basically, school medical records are federally protected by FERPA and HIPAA. The law is not exactly straightforward on this (ask any school nurse), but what is made clear to school staff is that these records are protected and schools can not release information about medical records or medical issues.
When you see studies about percentages of vaccinated children, that data comes from CDC or other agency phone calls, NOT school records.
What schools MUST do is contact staff/parents/guardians when there is a student or staff member with a communicable disease or something easily transmitted by students like pinkeye or lice or mumps.
If you want to get out the word about vaccinations, then that's a separate issue and I would suggest speaking the administration and asking for their input on having a PTA forum, but there's no way the school is going to tell you which parents are on the anti-vaccination train.
I know it sucks and it's terrible, but all you can do is protect your own kids by vaccinating them, know that if they ARE exposed to a kid with mumps they won't get it because they're vaccinated, and kind of let this one go.
You can't parent other other parents. You can't argue with irrational beliefs.
(And as far as pregnant and other immuno-compromised staff being informed when stuff like this happens, we are.)
posted by kinetic at 6:09 AM on October 18, 2014 [1 favorite]
The short answer is you can't. You can't legally get information about who's vaccinated and who isn't. The school absolutely should not tell you this information because those are confidential records.
It's a weird, entangled bunch of legalities, but basically, school medical records are federally protected by FERPA and HIPAA. The law is not exactly straightforward on this (ask any school nurse), but what is made clear to school staff is that these records are protected and schools can not release information about medical records or medical issues.
When you see studies about percentages of vaccinated children, that data comes from CDC or other agency phone calls, NOT school records.
What schools MUST do is contact staff/parents/guardians when there is a student or staff member with a communicable disease or something easily transmitted by students like pinkeye or lice or mumps.
If you want to get out the word about vaccinations, then that's a separate issue and I would suggest speaking the administration and asking for their input on having a PTA forum, but there's no way the school is going to tell you which parents are on the anti-vaccination train.
I know it sucks and it's terrible, but all you can do is protect your own kids by vaccinating them, know that if they ARE exposed to a kid with mumps they won't get it because they're vaccinated, and kind of let this one go.
You can't parent other other parents. You can't argue with irrational beliefs.
(And as far as pregnant and other immuno-compromised staff being informed when stuff like this happens, we are.)
posted by kinetic at 6:09 AM on October 18, 2014 [1 favorite]
Does the school's or school system's health department have agency to conduct their own campaign? It seems like part of their job to me. If they educate the school about other health issues, see when they'll have vaccination on the schedule and request it if it's not.
posted by michaelh at 6:58 AM on October 18, 2014
posted by michaelh at 6:58 AM on October 18, 2014
It is reasonable to get a number from the school district, the number or percentage will at least give you a straight fact to guage reaction with if you present it at a meeting. The problem isn't so much lack of information as the privileged assuming they have privileged information.
As far as friendship, as a parent, I've questioned the 'dear' more than I had hoped. The dearest friends I can usually find a middle parenting ground. Anti-vax, however, requires me to suspend too much belief in public health, world citizenship and critical thinking, and most aren't worth that energy.
Fwiw, my state has recently struck down the philosophical excuse to not vax and a new law is in place where the parents must undergo education to receive any exemption. (To begin with, the charters in the largest metro stand at 70-80% non vaxed.) Look to see if your state has enacted anything similar and what your school district considers a valid exemption. But look at the numbers before passionately pursuing a strategy. All parents think they have seen the light.
posted by lawliet at 8:55 AM on October 18, 2014
As far as friendship, as a parent, I've questioned the 'dear' more than I had hoped. The dearest friends I can usually find a middle parenting ground. Anti-vax, however, requires me to suspend too much belief in public health, world citizenship and critical thinking, and most aren't worth that energy.
Fwiw, my state has recently struck down the philosophical excuse to not vax and a new law is in place where the parents must undergo education to receive any exemption. (To begin with, the charters in the largest metro stand at 70-80% non vaxed.) Look to see if your state has enacted anything similar and what your school district considers a valid exemption. But look at the numbers before passionately pursuing a strategy. All parents think they have seen the light.
posted by lawliet at 8:55 AM on October 18, 2014
Whoa. You child are not as you say protected. Immunizations only take in a large fraction of those immunized. Hrd immunity prevents mumps and measles and polio from afflicting our childre. Except that it doesn't because of ignorant fools like your friend. She is putting your kids at risk of disfigurement and death. Call the school board and cause a stir. You like your children alive!!! It is inappropriate for any nonvaccinated child without a specific ailment preventing them from vaccines to go to public school. Cause it puts the out vaccinated kids at risk of death.
posted by Kalmya at 10:09 AM on October 18, 2014
posted by Kalmya at 10:09 AM on October 18, 2014
It is reasonable to get a number from the school district, the number or percentage will at least give you a straight fact to guage reaction with if you present it at a meeting. The problem isn't so much lack of information as the privileged assuming they have privileged information.
Again, this is federally-protected information.
The school district CANNOT RELEASE THIS INFORMATION.
You need to figure out alternative plans, whatever they are. But PLEASE don't even waste a second trying to get a school to release confidential information to you.
posted by kinetic at 11:09 AM on October 18, 2014 [1 favorite]
Again, this is federally-protected information.
The school district CANNOT RELEASE THIS INFORMATION.
You need to figure out alternative plans, whatever they are. But PLEASE don't even waste a second trying to get a school to release confidential information to you.
posted by kinetic at 11:09 AM on October 18, 2014 [1 favorite]
Best answer: The CDC releases data state by state. My state releases data by county. My school district does not release its data, but they do keep this data and it seems like this should be available by school by FOIA if necessary and I would imagine the data must exist by school. Yeah, outing people who choose not to vaccinate is illegal illegal illegal. I think it is a valid thing to publicize school vaccination rates, but I'm not sure pressuring as a parent through the PTA is necessary or helpful unless there was a groundswell. It would certainly be interesting to see what would happen if vaccine rates were available -- would pro vaccine parents with the resources to do so move their kids to schools with higher rates? What would this do to vaccinated kids who couldn't afford to move their kids? Or would anti vaccine parents move their kids to schools with higher vaccine rates to take advantage of herd immunity?
Our state recently passed a mandatory physician consultation requirement for exemption -- the rationale for this wasn't actually to make doctors convince parents to vaccinate, although that might be happening. What we found here is that in some cases, kids weren't vaccinated because enrollment time came along and they discovered a shot or two was missing, and it was far easier to sign the exemption form than to go take your kid to the doctor to get the missing shots.
Anyway, the best defense is to keep your kids vaccinated, ask the parents of the kids you're children are spending lots of time with, make sure people are keeping their kids home when sick, and speak publicly about your views on vaccination. Personally, I can't be friends with people who are anti-science and if you want my permission to cut this family loose, you have it.
posted by Slarty Bartfast at 3:14 PM on October 18, 2014 [2 favorites]
Our state recently passed a mandatory physician consultation requirement for exemption -- the rationale for this wasn't actually to make doctors convince parents to vaccinate, although that might be happening. What we found here is that in some cases, kids weren't vaccinated because enrollment time came along and they discovered a shot or two was missing, and it was far easier to sign the exemption form than to go take your kid to the doctor to get the missing shots.
Anyway, the best defense is to keep your kids vaccinated, ask the parents of the kids you're children are spending lots of time with, make sure people are keeping their kids home when sick, and speak publicly about your views on vaccination. Personally, I can't be friends with people who are anti-science and if you want my permission to cut this family loose, you have it.
posted by Slarty Bartfast at 3:14 PM on October 18, 2014 [2 favorites]
Best answer: In my state and I would think in most others, when there is a vaccine-preventable disease outbreak in a school, the school can (or maybe must) exclude kids from attending if they're not vaccinated against the disease. So if you hear that this case is confirmed and don't hear about kids lacking MMR vaccine being kept out of school, you could speak to the principal. That person won't be able to confirm or deny anything about a particular student, but your voice could tip the balance if exclusion is up to the principal's discretion. Seeing a bunch of kids missing from school all of a sudden would make a pretty clear signal to all families that (a) there are unvaccinated families in their midst and (b) there are real risks to nonvaccination.
It really does seem unfair that people are completely free to impose their neuroses about vaccines on innocent children - their own and others'.
posted by lakeroon at 3:22 PM on October 18, 2014 [2 favorites]
It really does seem unfair that people are completely free to impose their neuroses about vaccines on innocent children - their own and others'.
posted by lakeroon at 3:22 PM on October 18, 2014 [2 favorites]
From the Centers for Disease Control about the National Immunizations Survey "How are data for the NIS collected?
We use random-digit-dialing to find households with children aged 19 to 35 months. We ask parents or guardians to tell us demographic and socioeconomic information. At the end of the interview, we ask for permission to contact the child's vaccination providers. Providers are then contacted by mail to verify each child's vaccinations."
Again, there's NO WAY a school district would ever release this information.
posted by kinetic at 5:08 PM on October 18, 2014
We use random-digit-dialing to find households with children aged 19 to 35 months. We ask parents or guardians to tell us demographic and socioeconomic information. At the end of the interview, we ask for permission to contact the child's vaccination providers. Providers are then contacted by mail to verify each child's vaccinations."
Again, there's NO WAY a school district would ever release this information.
posted by kinetic at 5:08 PM on October 18, 2014
When you see studies about percentages of vaccinated children, that data comes from CDC or other agency phone calls, NOT school records.
This is not true in California, where to enroll an unvaccinated child in school you must provide a personal belief exemption. These are tallied by the California Department of Public Health, which releases school-by-school information about kindergartners.
I realize the OP is not in California, but there are states that provide this information.
posted by purpleclover at 6:29 PM on October 18, 2014 [2 favorites]
This is not true in California, where to enroll an unvaccinated child in school you must provide a personal belief exemption. These are tallied by the California Department of Public Health, which releases school-by-school information about kindergartners.
I realize the OP is not in California, but there are states that provide this information.
posted by purpleclover at 6:29 PM on October 18, 2014 [2 favorites]
As for the anti-vaxxers, there seems to be no way to convince them that this is a wrong choice. For every medically documented and researched paper with solid facts you present them there is a quacks rebuttal online somewhere.
posted by OkTwigs at 7:24 PM on October 18, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by OkTwigs at 7:24 PM on October 18, 2014 [1 favorite]
Best answer: Schooldigger.com seems to provide vaccination compliance data when it is available. For instance, here is my local elementary school's data, broken down by vaccine. It's shockingly low, but I'm surrounded by hippies.
If your school doesn't publish this information, I would start by simply asking for it. If the numbers surprise you, I'll bet they surprise others in your PTSA and that could open the discussion for further action. You can't out non-vaccinators but you can get people talking -- some will out themselves. If you are active in the school, you can help create a culture around this issue.
posted by Slarty Bartfast at 8:42 PM on October 18, 2014 [4 favorites]
If your school doesn't publish this information, I would start by simply asking for it. If the numbers surprise you, I'll bet they surprise others in your PTSA and that could open the discussion for further action. You can't out non-vaccinators but you can get people talking -- some will out themselves. If you are active in the school, you can help create a culture around this issue.
posted by Slarty Bartfast at 8:42 PM on October 18, 2014 [4 favorites]
And yeah, for national surveillance, the CDC uses random samples, for their purposes this provides more accurate data with less work but the raw data exists and there is no legal reason that it cannot be released.
posted by Slarty Bartfast at 8:47 PM on October 18, 2014
posted by Slarty Bartfast at 8:47 PM on October 18, 2014
I was in a charter school in CA 6 years ago. My "teacher" told me to take the exemption so we could enroll quicker. When we moved to a new state, I did the same, and still do despite us getting our shots on schedule. I do this to avoid having to pay for a visit when it is not time for our physical, and to avoid clogging the doctor office when they have everyone else there for shots and sports physicals.
Should there be an outbreak of measles or whooping cough, I would probably be told to stay home...but I could produce our records if needed to prove we have had the shots.
Pointing this out to let you know that school records may not be accurate or complete, in part due to staff, and partly due to parents who do what they need to do but don't want to make a special trip to the doctor.
posted by 101cats at 8:56 PM on October 18, 2014
Should there be an outbreak of measles or whooping cough, I would probably be told to stay home...but I could produce our records if needed to prove we have had the shots.
Pointing this out to let you know that school records may not be accurate or complete, in part due to staff, and partly due to parents who do what they need to do but don't want to make a special trip to the doctor.
posted by 101cats at 8:56 PM on October 18, 2014
Sorry I wasn't being clear as I was responding to this, "I would want to know the specific families that are not vaccinating so that I could keep my kids away from them."
The school can and does release local immunization numbers (yes, the CDC studies are based on different data), but they can't give out the names of who is and isn't vaccinated.
I apologize for not responding fully.
posted by kinetic at 5:38 AM on October 19, 2014
The school can and does release local immunization numbers (yes, the CDC studies are based on different data), but they can't give out the names of who is and isn't vaccinated.
I apologize for not responding fully.
posted by kinetic at 5:38 AM on October 19, 2014
« Older Steroids will be the death of me....and my weekend | Why do men appear to be far more likely to be... Newer »
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by bruce at 8:40 PM on October 17, 2014 [1 favorite]