Ambition: to have or not to have?
October 16, 2014 3:33 PM Subscribe
Too much ambition and you end up being disappointed for not achieving your goals. Too little, you're unattractive. How to strike a balance?
So when I was younger I paid heed to the advice to not harbor ambitions too high, lest I would grow old disappointed in myself. Today I have a good middle class job (university teacher) much better than anything I had expected of myself before, and I do it half content to be where I am and half anxious to not screw it up. I would not consider myself very ambitious, on purpose to avoid disappointment.
Meanwhile I was conversing a few month ago with a friend who was explaining that the reason I can't seem to attract friends or partners is that people prefer to hang out with leaders who will bring them forward in life beyond their current lot, so apparently Ambition is important to be attractive.
What makes?
So far this just gives me the impression we as society have fucked up, expecting from others the very property that would make them unhappy in the long run.
Your thoughts?
So when I was younger I paid heed to the advice to not harbor ambitions too high, lest I would grow old disappointed in myself. Today I have a good middle class job (university teacher) much better than anything I had expected of myself before, and I do it half content to be where I am and half anxious to not screw it up. I would not consider myself very ambitious, on purpose to avoid disappointment.
Meanwhile I was conversing a few month ago with a friend who was explaining that the reason I can't seem to attract friends or partners is that people prefer to hang out with leaders who will bring them forward in life beyond their current lot, so apparently Ambition is important to be attractive.
What makes?
So far this just gives me the impression we as society have fucked up, expecting from others the very property that would make them unhappy in the long run.
Your thoughts?
Meanwhile I was conversing a few month ago with a friend who was explaining that the reason I can't seem to attract friends or partners is that people prefer to hang out with leaders who will bring them forward in life beyond their current lot, so apparently Ambition is important to be attractive.
What makes?
What makes is that your friend is a jackass, sucking at the teat of PLA. Ignore his advice.
posted by DarlingBri at 3:54 PM on October 16, 2014 [6 favorites]
What makes?
What makes is that your friend is a jackass, sucking at the teat of PLA. Ignore his advice.
posted by DarlingBri at 3:54 PM on October 16, 2014 [6 favorites]
Well, I suppose you could look at it as a compliment. Your friend thinks that you are a, what was it? "a leader who will bring them forward in life beyond their current lot". I mean that sort of sounds complimentary. Or something.
I can give you a sample size of one: I prefer make friends with people who are funny and interesting and personable and I don't give a damn what they might be able to for me. And I wouldn't be interesting in having friends who was only friends with me because I could help them in some way.
I kinda feel sorry for your friend. That sounds like a pretty cold way to live.
posted by Beti at 3:55 PM on October 16, 2014 [2 favorites]
I can give you a sample size of one: I prefer make friends with people who are funny and interesting and personable and I don't give a damn what they might be able to for me. And I wouldn't be interesting in having friends who was only friends with me because I could help them in some way.
I kinda feel sorry for your friend. That sounds like a pretty cold way to live.
posted by Beti at 3:55 PM on October 16, 2014 [2 favorites]
the reason I can't seem to attract friends or partners is that people prefer to hang out with leaders who will bring them forward in life beyond their current lot, so apparently Ambition is important to be attractive
What's happening here is that your friend is projecting their own insecurities onto you.
posted by poffin boffin at 3:57 PM on October 16, 2014 [20 favorites]
What's happening here is that your friend is projecting their own insecurities onto you.
posted by poffin boffin at 3:57 PM on October 16, 2014 [20 favorites]
Meanwhile I was conversing a few month ago with a friend who was explaining that the reason I can't seem to attract friends or partners is that people prefer to hang out with leaders who will bring them forward in life beyond their current lot, so apparently Ambition is important to be attractive.
What? No. People who make friends in the hope that their friends will "bring them forward in life" are hangers-on (to put it nicely), not real friends. Sure, you want your friends to add to your life and lift you up in the emotional/spiritual sense, but you don't need ambition to do that. You just need to be a good person and find people who click with you.
I choose friends because they are kind, funny, considerate, generous, and we share interests. I don't give a toot about their career ambitions. (I also don't consider people who put me down and make snide remarks to be real friends. You might want to take a closer look at this particular friendship.)
If you feel as if you are having trouble attracting friends or partners, try that old MeFi standby: therapy.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 4:08 PM on October 16, 2014 [6 favorites]
What? No. People who make friends in the hope that their friends will "bring them forward in life" are hangers-on (to put it nicely), not real friends. Sure, you want your friends to add to your life and lift you up in the emotional/spiritual sense, but you don't need ambition to do that. You just need to be a good person and find people who click with you.
I choose friends because they are kind, funny, considerate, generous, and we share interests. I don't give a toot about their career ambitions. (I also don't consider people who put me down and make snide remarks to be real friends. You might want to take a closer look at this particular friendship.)
If you feel as if you are having trouble attracting friends or partners, try that old MeFi standby: therapy.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 4:08 PM on October 16, 2014 [6 favorites]
Came in to chime: your friend is wrong.
You're a university teacher. That's an awesome job, and not one where cutthroat ambition is necessarily a plus. What does your friend do?
Ambition shouldn't have anything to do with attraction. Strike the balance by doing what you want.
posted by RainyJay at 4:09 PM on October 16, 2014 [1 favorite]
You're a university teacher. That's an awesome job, and not one where cutthroat ambition is necessarily a plus. What does your friend do?
Ambition shouldn't have anything to do with attraction. Strike the balance by doing what you want.
posted by RainyJay at 4:09 PM on October 16, 2014 [1 favorite]
P.S.: as far as having ambition is concerned, plenty of people work to live rather than live to work. Despite what you might read in Forbes or on Facebook pages, not everyone - maybe not even MOST people - want to scale the corporate ladder. They want a job that pays decently, with benefits, and a pleasant working environment, and are happy to stay in that niche. For many people, work pays the bills and their real passion goes toward a hobby or two, or their family, or both.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 4:12 PM on October 16, 2014 [6 favorites]
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 4:12 PM on October 16, 2014 [6 favorites]
Instead of basing your life on other people's advice, which do you want? You said that you decided to not aim your ambitions too high, based on someone's advice. Was that what you really wanted? Are you a university teacher because you're following your heart's dream of having a balanced life with low stress, or did you do it just to avoid disappointment but you're not very happy about it?
Some people are extremely ambitious (Steve Jobs), and that's fine and it attracts some people.
Some people are un-ambitious, and that's also fine and attracts other people.
But the people who are inwardly very ambitious but denying it out of fear of failure or some other reason are going to be less attractive, because they're always restless and dissatisfied. The people who are inwardly not ambitious but acting ambitious out of peer pressure or family pressure are also less attractive, because they're stressed and dissatisfied.
posted by vienna at 4:13 PM on October 16, 2014 [8 favorites]
Some people are extremely ambitious (Steve Jobs), and that's fine and it attracts some people.
Some people are un-ambitious, and that's also fine and attracts other people.
But the people who are inwardly very ambitious but denying it out of fear of failure or some other reason are going to be less attractive, because they're always restless and dissatisfied. The people who are inwardly not ambitious but acting ambitious out of peer pressure or family pressure are also less attractive, because they're stressed and dissatisfied.
posted by vienna at 4:13 PM on October 16, 2014 [8 favorites]
I'd say the thing to do with achievement is to detach yourself from the outcome, to realize that it's not a reflection of you, and to realize that it's only going to make certain problems go away, while causing others. Something along the lines of the distinction between self-esteem and self-efficacy. Look for positions where you think you can thrive and contribute and help people if that stuff interests you, but it doesn't need to be a crushing defeat if you don't get something you want.
When it comes to relationships, be wary of people who want you around because of your position in life. You know what it looks like when you are relating to someone who accepts you and doesn't have an agenda. Try to be a person like that and to seek out others like that.
posted by alphanerd at 4:30 PM on October 16, 2014 [2 favorites]
When it comes to relationships, be wary of people who want you around because of your position in life. You know what it looks like when you are relating to someone who accepts you and doesn't have an agenda. Try to be a person like that and to seek out others like that.
posted by alphanerd at 4:30 PM on October 16, 2014 [2 favorites]
I find ambition attractive, though certainly not to "bring me forward in life." I just admire people who work for something better--either striving to make the world a better place, or trying to become the best runner/cook/cyclist/etc/etc they can in their personal life, or, for example, an entrepreneur starting a company to solve a problem. Maybe the attraction comes partly from a correlation with confidence, or the fact that I happen to be ambitious myself in certain ways.
I've never heard the advice not to aim too high to avoid disappointment, and think that's sort of an odd reason to choose a career.
That said, your supposed lack of ambition is absolutely not a reason why you wouldn't be able to find a partner. Is it true that most people might not want to be with someone so unambitious they live in their parents' basement and don't have a job? Yes. But you have a completely respectable career. Your friend is totally wrong.
posted by three_red_balloons at 4:48 PM on October 16, 2014 [3 favorites]
I've never heard the advice not to aim too high to avoid disappointment, and think that's sort of an odd reason to choose a career.
That said, your supposed lack of ambition is absolutely not a reason why you wouldn't be able to find a partner. Is it true that most people might not want to be with someone so unambitious they live in their parents' basement and don't have a job? Yes. But you have a completely respectable career. Your friend is totally wrong.
posted by three_red_balloons at 4:48 PM on October 16, 2014 [3 favorites]
I think your friend is conflating ambition with being engaged with your life. Do you have hobbies that you enjoy talking about and sharing with others? My erstwhile partners have all had an interest we could share that they got me into and I still pursue - xc skiing, brewing beer, weightlifting. That's the only way I can really see that they've improved my lot beyond general enjoyment of their company.
You just need enough ambition to be financially solvent, decent at your job, and involved with the larger world. More is not necessarily better.
posted by momus_window at 4:58 PM on October 16, 2014 [5 favorites]
You just need enough ambition to be financially solvent, decent at your job, and involved with the larger world. More is not necessarily better.
posted by momus_window at 4:58 PM on October 16, 2014 [5 favorites]
I would agree with the statement, however, I wouldn't define ambition as just work related or only work related. I think it's important to have goals in life and be working towards them. So yes, I'd not be attracted to someone who comes home and slumps in front of the TV every day then spends the weekend slumped in front of the TV, but if it was someone in a fairly secure role where there's not a lot of space to move up, that's something else. But I'd want them to be pursuing goals, be it buying a house or planning a trip to Europe or getting into a hobby or skill. I want someone engaged with life, not just waiting to die.
posted by Ghostride The Whip at 5:33 PM on October 16, 2014 [3 favorites]
posted by Ghostride The Whip at 5:33 PM on October 16, 2014 [3 favorites]
when I was younger I paid heed to the advice to not harbor ambitions too high, lest I would grow old disappointed in myself.
Just to be clear this is also terrible advice.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 5:46 PM on October 16, 2014 [20 favorites]
Just to be clear this is also terrible advice.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 5:46 PM on October 16, 2014 [20 favorites]
In my experience the most unattractive personalities I've ever met are overly ambitious and thus I avoid them like the plague.
posted by umberto at 6:10 PM on October 16, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by umberto at 6:10 PM on October 16, 2014 [2 favorites]
Best answer: It sort of depends on what is meant by ambition. If it's the pursuit fame and fortune, ambition might put you at greater risk of disappointment, because those goals are relative. By definition only a few people achieve them. But you can be ambitious in the pursuit of any number of things: scientific knowledge, enlightenment, artistic creativity. I guess I'd be a little less attracted to someone who had no goals, or who had goals but didn't pursue them.
I feel like you're both right, depending on how you look at it.
posted by MrBobinski at 6:17 PM on October 16, 2014 [5 favorites]
I feel like you're both right, depending on how you look at it.
posted by MrBobinski at 6:17 PM on October 16, 2014 [5 favorites]
I agree that the problematic theme here is about the fact that you spend too much time listening to other people's advice.
Ambition is not a bad thing. The problem is when your ambition is not aligned with what you are willing to pour into realizing your ambitions and when you aren't actually satisfied with the act of making those attempts at realizing your ambitions and dreams.
And lots of people do not find a person without dreams or goals to be attractive. You have to have something you are channeling yourself into, personally, spiritually, intellectually, and/or professionally. It doesn't have to be all of those things or any particular one of those things, but if it is none of those things, then a person can seem unattractive.
If someone said, "I have a job that isn't too stressful and allows me to spend time on 'X'," that is mostly considered one of many good options to choose to live one's life. But point blank saying, "I never wanted to get too ambitious about anything because that's just setting yourself up for disappointment" ? That person has issues.
posted by deanc at 6:31 PM on October 16, 2014
Ambition is not a bad thing. The problem is when your ambition is not aligned with what you are willing to pour into realizing your ambitions and when you aren't actually satisfied with the act of making those attempts at realizing your ambitions and dreams.
And lots of people do not find a person without dreams or goals to be attractive. You have to have something you are channeling yourself into, personally, spiritually, intellectually, and/or professionally. It doesn't have to be all of those things or any particular one of those things, but if it is none of those things, then a person can seem unattractive.
If someone said, "I have a job that isn't too stressful and allows me to spend time on 'X'," that is mostly considered one of many good options to choose to live one's life. But point blank saying, "I never wanted to get too ambitious about anything because that's just setting yourself up for disappointment" ? That person has issues.
posted by deanc at 6:31 PM on October 16, 2014
The key is to have high ambition and low expectations. So reach for really ambitious goals but then still be happy if you only ever get halfway there because halfway to something really awesome is still pretty good.
posted by Jacqueline at 6:41 PM on October 16, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by Jacqueline at 6:41 PM on October 16, 2014 [2 favorites]
Best answer: Yeah, as a normative matter, I agree with previous answers that it's neither true that ambition necessarily leads to disappointment nor that you should become (feign?) ambition in order to attract friends and romantic partners.
Descriptively, though, there are definitely places where social climbing is a thing and in particular where women are encouraged to "marry up" as a way of improving the socioeconomic status of themselves and their families. Whether you want to participate in that (from either end) is your decision.
Personally, I find myself attracted, both platonically and romantically, to a certain combination of humility and competence. I like people who are good at something and don't make a big deal about it. Ambition is sort of orthogonal to both of these.
posted by d. z. wang at 6:42 PM on October 16, 2014 [1 favorite]
Descriptively, though, there are definitely places where social climbing is a thing and in particular where women are encouraged to "marry up" as a way of improving the socioeconomic status of themselves and their families. Whether you want to participate in that (from either end) is your decision.
Personally, I find myself attracted, both platonically and romantically, to a certain combination of humility and competence. I like people who are good at something and don't make a big deal about it. Ambition is sort of orthogonal to both of these.
posted by d. z. wang at 6:42 PM on October 16, 2014 [1 favorite]
How ambitious do you want to be? Do find what you're doing right now satisfying intellectually and socially? If so, then rock on. If you're a happy and satisfied person, you'll attract people easily enough.
If you're finding it boring and/or unuseful, or unsatisfying for whatever reason, then there's nothing wrong with a little ambition. Ambition doesn't have to be about personal ego boosting or setting unrealistic goals, and being purposely ambitious seems like an outlook that could set you up for disappointment. It's healthy and good to strive towards something, even to strive towards fantastic things, as long as you'll also recognize and celebrate your accomplishment when they fall short of those goals. To me, reading your question, it sounds like you artificially shut down your natural ambition because you convince yourself that you're a failure. This is super unhealthy and untruthful and it definitely an unattractive trait. Personally, before you even start worrying about attracting a partner or not, I'd talk with someone about negative self-talk and self-sabotage. Then decide what your ambitions may or may not be: career, starting a family, learning a cool new skills, whatever. I think that when you're pursuing the goals that feel right to you, you tend to meet and becoming drawn to the right people and potential partners just as a natural side effect.
posted by Kurichina at 7:54 PM on October 16, 2014
If you're finding it boring and/or unuseful, or unsatisfying for whatever reason, then there's nothing wrong with a little ambition. Ambition doesn't have to be about personal ego boosting or setting unrealistic goals, and being purposely ambitious seems like an outlook that could set you up for disappointment. It's healthy and good to strive towards something, even to strive towards fantastic things, as long as you'll also recognize and celebrate your accomplishment when they fall short of those goals. To me, reading your question, it sounds like you artificially shut down your natural ambition because you convince yourself that you're a failure. This is super unhealthy and untruthful and it definitely an unattractive trait. Personally, before you even start worrying about attracting a partner or not, I'd talk with someone about negative self-talk and self-sabotage. Then decide what your ambitions may or may not be: career, starting a family, learning a cool new skills, whatever. I think that when you're pursuing the goals that feel right to you, you tend to meet and becoming drawn to the right people and potential partners just as a natural side effect.
posted by Kurichina at 7:54 PM on October 16, 2014
Best answer: How to strike a balance?
By using "ambition" as motivation to make the best of one's potential and inspire others, without being enslaved by it nor ever once thinking its fulfillment determines self-worth or character.
As that one poem goes, If you can dream--and not make dreams your master...
Great question.
posted by tackypink at 8:57 PM on October 16, 2014 [1 favorite]
By using "ambition" as motivation to make the best of one's potential and inspire others, without being enslaved by it nor ever once thinking its fulfillment determines self-worth or character.
As that one poem goes, If you can dream--and not make dreams your master...
Great question.
posted by tackypink at 8:57 PM on October 16, 2014 [1 favorite]
Meanwhile I was conversing a few month ago with a friend who was explaining that the reason I can't seem to attract friends or partners is that people prefer to hang out with leaders who will bring them forward in life beyond their current lot, so apparently Ambition is important to be attractive.
The fact that some dude said that does not make it true.
posted by Ironmouth at 9:03 PM on October 16, 2014
The fact that some dude said that does not make it true.
posted by Ironmouth at 9:03 PM on October 16, 2014
Response by poster: @ ironmouth & others, I'm not sure you realize how ironic it is you judge my friend's opinion negatively yet provide no reason why I should trust your judgement (i.e a stranger's) better than my friend's.
For the others what can I say, I am foremost surprised by the lack of consensus in the answers, which tends to confirm something bigger than just my situation is going amiss.
posted by knz at 11:54 PM on October 16, 2014
For the others what can I say, I am foremost surprised by the lack of consensus in the answers, which tends to confirm something bigger than just my situation is going amiss.
posted by knz at 11:54 PM on October 16, 2014
Too much ambition and you end up being disappointed for not achieving your goals.
Successful people are not people who never failed. They are people who embraced failure, and were happy to fail gloriously in all kind of ways. They are also people who learned as they went along, and kept scanning the horizon for new opportunities to grab with both hands and see what happens.
Go ahead and have ambition. In all likelihood none of your goals will turn out how you thought they would, but you'll have a dozen new goals you'd never have previously imagined, and you'll have a ton of fun finding it out.
posted by emilyw at 3:03 AM on October 17, 2014 [3 favorites]
Successful people are not people who never failed. They are people who embraced failure, and were happy to fail gloriously in all kind of ways. They are also people who learned as they went along, and kept scanning the horizon for new opportunities to grab with both hands and see what happens.
Go ahead and have ambition. In all likelihood none of your goals will turn out how you thought they would, but you'll have a dozen new goals you'd never have previously imagined, and you'll have a ton of fun finding it out.
posted by emilyw at 3:03 AM on October 17, 2014 [3 favorites]
In my personal experience (and probably the experience of other answerers, which is all we can offer!), ambition may be associated with numbers of friends and acquaintances but is, if anything, negatively correlated with "friendship", i.e. the warmth, ease, stability and strength of connection and companionship with the people in your life.
Ambition (in the sense your friend means) almost by definition consumes your time, energy and orients you towards things other than simply enjoying the presence of the people around you in a way that nurtures friendship and love. It prompts you to have goals and objectives in your interactions with people rather than simply enjoying their company for its own sake. It encourages a focus on material success over healthy relationships. I think it's fair to say that all these factors tend to work against forming true friendships.
It is useful for networking and attracting hangers-on I suppose. But it is flatly untrue that ambition is somehow required to have friends and romantic partners. I mean, if you lack ambition to the extent where you can't provide yourself with your basic needs etc, then that can be unattractive. But that's not remotely the same thing as needing to contantly aim for the *top* in order to 'attract people'. As long as your position is comfortable and stable, then it isn't your ambition or lack thereof that's got you short on companionship.
My advice would be to take your friend's advice with a grain of salt, as it sounds to me like he's just regurgitating some get-rich-quick/self-help/business-school platitudes and has an unbalanced view of life.
posted by Drexen at 4:06 AM on October 17, 2014 [1 favorite]
Ambition (in the sense your friend means) almost by definition consumes your time, energy and orients you towards things other than simply enjoying the presence of the people around you in a way that nurtures friendship and love. It prompts you to have goals and objectives in your interactions with people rather than simply enjoying their company for its own sake. It encourages a focus on material success over healthy relationships. I think it's fair to say that all these factors tend to work against forming true friendships.
It is useful for networking and attracting hangers-on I suppose. But it is flatly untrue that ambition is somehow required to have friends and romantic partners. I mean, if you lack ambition to the extent where you can't provide yourself with your basic needs etc, then that can be unattractive. But that's not remotely the same thing as needing to contantly aim for the *top* in order to 'attract people'. As long as your position is comfortable and stable, then it isn't your ambition or lack thereof that's got you short on companionship.
My advice would be to take your friend's advice with a grain of salt, as it sounds to me like he's just regurgitating some get-rich-quick/self-help/business-school platitudes and has an unbalanced view of life.
posted by Drexen at 4:06 AM on October 17, 2014 [1 favorite]
Best answer: I assume you and your friend are both male, because the idea that women need to be more ambitious in order to attract a man is obviously laughable (there is plenty of evidence that men do not like to date women who out-earn them, for example). So if we exclude women from this, what we are left with is your friend basically saying "men need to be ambitious go-getting alpha-males to attract a mate". I'm afraid that is some gender-essentialist bullshit too, and numerous people on here have given you counterexamples.
If your friend is reacting to you constantly shying away from doing things that you really want to do, just so you avoid looking too ambitious, then yes you should have some confidence in yourself and go out and do the things you want to do. If you are perfectly happy with your life, and achieving everything that you want to achieve, then there is no need to start planning to scale Everest just so you have something impressive on your cv to attract women with. Aside from anything else, if you start dating somebody who likes your (fake) fearless driven persona, what will happen when you eventually lapse back into being the real you? Date people who like you for who you are, it is much easier.
The friendship thing is weird, because he's already friends with you. How did that happen if you can only make friends when you are ambitious?
posted by tinkletown at 4:22 AM on October 17, 2014 [1 favorite]
If your friend is reacting to you constantly shying away from doing things that you really want to do, just so you avoid looking too ambitious, then yes you should have some confidence in yourself and go out and do the things you want to do. If you are perfectly happy with your life, and achieving everything that you want to achieve, then there is no need to start planning to scale Everest just so you have something impressive on your cv to attract women with. Aside from anything else, if you start dating somebody who likes your (fake) fearless driven persona, what will happen when you eventually lapse back into being the real you? Date people who like you for who you are, it is much easier.
The friendship thing is weird, because he's already friends with you. How did that happen if you can only make friends when you are ambitious?
posted by tinkletown at 4:22 AM on October 17, 2014 [1 favorite]
I find that some sense of forward momentum is crucial to my satisfaction with life: feeling like I've gotten better in some respect since last year, feeling like I'm working towards continually improving. It can be financial, professional, physical, mental, etc. As I've discovered this, I've also found it harder to be friends with people who don't have that internal drive, who never act or learn. That, to me, is healthy ambition, and that's what I find attractive in others.
When "ambition" is applied too narrowly (e.g. the desire for a high-income high-power job, and all of the material and social benefits that go with it), it will only attract people who've bought into the same definition of success, and it will repel people who don't share your priorities. Same for ambition that aims unrealistically high or consumes too much of a person's life. I'd admire someone working toward getting a book published; I'd have trouble getting along with someone who wouldn't be satisfied until she published a bestseller. Ambition at this level often demonstrates a lack of perspective or balance.
@ ironmouth & others, I'm not sure you realize how ironic it is you judge my friend's opinion negatively yet provide no reason why I should trust your judgement (i.e a stranger's) better than my friend's.
Well... you asked a bunch of strangers. You are free to take or leave any of our advice, same as your friend's.
posted by Metroid Baby at 4:47 AM on October 17, 2014 [7 favorites]
When "ambition" is applied too narrowly (e.g. the desire for a high-income high-power job, and all of the material and social benefits that go with it), it will only attract people who've bought into the same definition of success, and it will repel people who don't share your priorities. Same for ambition that aims unrealistically high or consumes too much of a person's life. I'd admire someone working toward getting a book published; I'd have trouble getting along with someone who wouldn't be satisfied until she published a bestseller. Ambition at this level often demonstrates a lack of perspective or balance.
@ ironmouth & others, I'm not sure you realize how ironic it is you judge my friend's opinion negatively yet provide no reason why I should trust your judgement (i.e a stranger's) better than my friend's.
Well... you asked a bunch of strangers. You are free to take or leave any of our advice, same as your friend's.
posted by Metroid Baby at 4:47 AM on October 17, 2014 [7 favorites]
I believe in Don Shula's (and others) philosophy: have ambition for excellence, not success. If you don't succeed, you fail. If you don't achieve excellence, you still become pretty damned good. (And, of course, you may well achieve excellence and you may well achieve success.)
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 5:06 AM on October 17, 2014 [4 favorites]
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 5:06 AM on October 17, 2014 [4 favorites]
There are a lot of generalities in your friend's statement.
I'd much rather spend time with those I perceive as equals instead of being surrounded by go-getters/leaders. I have people in my life that are high achievers, but I don't relate to them well. I've had experiences where those leaders tend to be users of people for their own gain instead of true friendship/companionship.
Being content can be an extremely valuable goal/state of mind.
posted by Twicketface at 7:23 AM on October 17, 2014 [2 favorites]
I'd much rather spend time with those I perceive as equals instead of being surrounded by go-getters/leaders. I have people in my life that are high achievers, but I don't relate to them well. I've had experiences where those leaders tend to be users of people for their own gain instead of true friendship/companionship.
Being content can be an extremely valuable goal/state of mind.
posted by Twicketface at 7:23 AM on October 17, 2014 [2 favorites]
rather than ambition, i think what is often an attractive trait is confidence. it is slightly different but often comes hand in hand with ambition. it is not so much as what you aim to achieve, but that you are working towards something, or even just knowing what you want and what you don't want. ambitious people have an air of confidence around them because they know exactly what they're trying to achieve and are fearless to get it, that confidence in themselves is attractive. whether the goal is climbing mt. everest or being a professor, as long as you're confident that is what you want, that mindset is more important and "attractive" than achieving something that fits the standard definition of ambitious.
posted by monologish at 8:00 AM on October 17, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by monologish at 8:00 AM on October 17, 2014 [1 favorite]
I'm a woman and was talking to my married women friends about if ambition played a significant role in their attraction for their husbands. All 4/5 of them said it did. all but 1 is at a pretty equal status with their husbands so there isn't much of a difference in their salaries or position. I think sometimes people equate ambition to ability to provide for their future family and live comfortably. It might make a difference that all of these women were raised by parents who were poor so the emphasis on "finding a good provider" might be a bit skewed.
I think for them, and maybe for many, if ambition is one of the qualities that the person you like has then you sort of become attracted to that. however none of these women would be attracted to their mate without love their first.
I am the oddball in that group bc ambition is slightly a turn off bc I don't enjoy the sacrifices that have to be made for that ambition. I'm somewhere between let's take a few vacations every year and be home for dinner 200 days out of the year.
posted by PeaPod at 8:30 AM on October 17, 2014
I think for them, and maybe for many, if ambition is one of the qualities that the person you like has then you sort of become attracted to that. however none of these women would be attracted to their mate without love their first.
I am the oddball in that group bc ambition is slightly a turn off bc I don't enjoy the sacrifices that have to be made for that ambition. I'm somewhere between let's take a few vacations every year and be home for dinner 200 days out of the year.
posted by PeaPod at 8:30 AM on October 17, 2014
One of the things you might be missing is the class dynamics of "ambition"
It's a terrible assumption but if you're able to become a university teacher without breaking too much of a sweat its likely you're coming from a pretty privileged background.
That's great for you and fair enough, but the sort of people I know that have these sorts of backgrounds and sit on these sort of cushions of privilege tend to have rather a hard time understanding how the "real world" works.
Though you might see yourself as being down to earth and not caring about your background, that you could actively choose not to be "ambitious" or live beneath your implied means or social expectations and yet get to quite a respected level in society is not a life experience that many other people share, or can relate to.
This can be especially risky for people in academia, which itself is a whole world away from reality itself, while it feigns meritocracy, the fact that is dominated by class, money and influence tends to reinforce and replicate this sort of thinking rather than undermine it.
Most of the people you probably look at as potential friends or partners in the social / academic milieu that you're in probably have very different expectations to you, either in being privelleged "go getters"or less privelleged hard scrabble types who worked hard for their successes, and are all trying to make a go of it in a very competitive field.
Most of these people have never had an option to underachieve, and are therefore pretty likely to find a more laid back approach to life rather baffling, and even complacent, and although you might be a great person probably not what they're looking for as a friend who can empathize with their drive, or a romantic partner that could compete for / compliment with them.
Perhaps its this sort of thinking that your friend is getting at?
posted by Middlemarch at 10:49 AM on October 17, 2014 [2 favorites]
It's a terrible assumption but if you're able to become a university teacher without breaking too much of a sweat its likely you're coming from a pretty privileged background.
That's great for you and fair enough, but the sort of people I know that have these sorts of backgrounds and sit on these sort of cushions of privilege tend to have rather a hard time understanding how the "real world" works.
Though you might see yourself as being down to earth and not caring about your background, that you could actively choose not to be "ambitious" or live beneath your implied means or social expectations and yet get to quite a respected level in society is not a life experience that many other people share, or can relate to.
This can be especially risky for people in academia, which itself is a whole world away from reality itself, while it feigns meritocracy, the fact that is dominated by class, money and influence tends to reinforce and replicate this sort of thinking rather than undermine it.
Most of the people you probably look at as potential friends or partners in the social / academic milieu that you're in probably have very different expectations to you, either in being privelleged "go getters"or less privelleged hard scrabble types who worked hard for their successes, and are all trying to make a go of it in a very competitive field.
Most of these people have never had an option to underachieve, and are therefore pretty likely to find a more laid back approach to life rather baffling, and even complacent, and although you might be a great person probably not what they're looking for as a friend who can empathize with their drive, or a romantic partner that could compete for / compliment with them.
Perhaps its this sort of thinking that your friend is getting at?
posted by Middlemarch at 10:49 AM on October 17, 2014 [2 favorites]
ironmouth & others, I'm not sure you realize how ironic it is you judge my friend's opinion negatively yet provide no reason why I should trust your judgement (i.e a stranger's) better than my friend's.
Well because you asked us.
posted by DarlingBri at 7:54 PM on October 17, 2014 [7 favorites]
Well because you asked us.
posted by DarlingBri at 7:54 PM on October 17, 2014 [7 favorites]
Some people find ambition in the professional sense attractive.
Some find a passion for a particular passtime, career or otherwise, attractive.
Some simply like seeing their partner get animated about some topic.
Some don't give a hoot about any of this and just like snuggling.
posted by ead at 9:18 PM on October 17, 2014
Some find a passion for a particular passtime, career or otherwise, attractive.
Some simply like seeing their partner get animated about some topic.
Some don't give a hoot about any of this and just like snuggling.
posted by ead at 9:18 PM on October 17, 2014
I'm not sure you realize how ironic it is you judge my friend's opinion negatively yet provide no reason why I should trust your judgement (i.e a stranger's) better than my friend's
If you don't want stranger's opinions you shouldn't have asked the question.
If you don't trust the opinions of strangers, it's useless to ask strangers for their opinions.
Deliberately avoiding things you'd like to do so you won't be too "ambitious" is a recipe for being disappointed you weren't ambitious later on.
There's nothing wrong with not having ambition in the first place, but that's a different attitude towards life than intentionally not having ambition for fear of disappointment. If you discuss this on first dates and with new friends, try toning it down a bit and talk about how you are pretty happy with your life these days instead.
posted by yohko at 9:46 PM on October 17, 2014 [1 favorite]
If you don't want stranger's opinions you shouldn't have asked the question.
If you don't trust the opinions of strangers, it's useless to ask strangers for their opinions.
Deliberately avoiding things you'd like to do so you won't be too "ambitious" is a recipe for being disappointed you weren't ambitious later on.
There's nothing wrong with not having ambition in the first place, but that's a different attitude towards life than intentionally not having ambition for fear of disappointment. If you discuss this on first dates and with new friends, try toning it down a bit and talk about how you are pretty happy with your life these days instead.
posted by yohko at 9:46 PM on October 17, 2014 [1 favorite]
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