Trip to Wales - am I on the right track?
October 9, 2014 12:00 PM Subscribe
My wife and I are going to Scotland to see friends and family, and since I always wanted to summit Snowdon I thought I would look into a side trip to Wales. Does this itinerary makes sense? Is there not enough or too much time? Do I need to book train tickets in advance? Finally, is the bus trip a big hassle with luggage? Any advice about Snowdon?
My itinerary, which doesn't include meals, relaxing and pubs I want to go to:
Oct 26 - Sunday
Take train from Edinburgh to Llandudno (or Llandudno Junction and a bus)
Punch and Judy show at the pier 4 PM
See the pier
Stay in Llandudno
27th
Conwy - Walled village and castle
Perhaps more of the pier?
Stay in Llandudno
28th
Train and bus, or just bus, to Porthmadog (2-ish hours) - will luggage be a problem on the bus?
Portmeirion Village (the Prisoner village)
Stay in Porthmadog
29th
Heritage railway train to Caernfarnon (steam train route): festrail.co.uk
See castle & Roman fort ruins in Caernfarnon
Heritage railway train back
Stay in Porthmadog
30th
Bus to the Ranger path trailhead of Snowdon
Climb it! Or, if we're not up to it, take the rack railway up
Stay in Porthmadog
31st
Train back to Edinburgh (probably have to get to Llandudno Junction again)
As far as my hiking abilities, I jog a few times a week, and can comfortably/regularly do hikes in the 700-ish metre elevation gain range (e.g. Ha Ling near Canmore, Alberta, Sentinel Pass near Morraine Lake, Alberta), and some scrambling. I've also done a 1000 m (Bow Peak, Kananaskis, Alberta), but it's been a few years.
However, my wife doesn't jog and is more comfortable in the 300-400 metre range (e.g. Rawson Lake, Alberta, and West Winds Pass near Canmore).
My itinerary, which doesn't include meals, relaxing and pubs I want to go to:
Oct 26 - Sunday
Take train from Edinburgh to Llandudno (or Llandudno Junction and a bus)
Punch and Judy show at the pier 4 PM
See the pier
Stay in Llandudno
27th
Conwy - Walled village and castle
Perhaps more of the pier?
Stay in Llandudno
28th
Train and bus, or just bus, to Porthmadog (2-ish hours) - will luggage be a problem on the bus?
Portmeirion Village (the Prisoner village)
Stay in Porthmadog
29th
Heritage railway train to Caernfarnon (steam train route): festrail.co.uk
See castle & Roman fort ruins in Caernfarnon
Heritage railway train back
Stay in Porthmadog
30th
Bus to the Ranger path trailhead of Snowdon
Climb it! Or, if we're not up to it, take the rack railway up
Stay in Porthmadog
31st
Train back to Edinburgh (probably have to get to Llandudno Junction again)
As far as my hiking abilities, I jog a few times a week, and can comfortably/regularly do hikes in the 700-ish metre elevation gain range (e.g. Ha Ling near Canmore, Alberta, Sentinel Pass near Morraine Lake, Alberta), and some scrambling. I've also done a 1000 m (Bow Peak, Kananaskis, Alberta), but it's been a few years.
However, my wife doesn't jog and is more comfortable in the 300-400 metre range (e.g. Rawson Lake, Alberta, and West Winds Pass near Canmore).
England resident here.
Train travel
I'ld book train tickets in advance if you can. Cheaper tickets are usually available the sooner you book. I don't know if there are cheaper tickets for visitors from the states?
Our train coverage is pretty good though the price structure is bizarre. You can get returns or singles. Or lots of other options.
Www.eastcoast.co.uk is the cheapest for me. Though look around.
Have you worked out which route you want to take between Edingbrugh (two stations) and Landono?
Conwy is a lovely town.
Snowdon:
Be aware that the weather makes such a difference and can change rapidly.
There's at least four different routes up ranging from straightforward to hair raising. You'll need a map, compass, torch, waterproofs etc.
My mum took the train and enjoyed it, meeting me and my dad at the cafe on top. I think you can book tickets in advance. Though no guarantee that you will be able to get a ride down *if you walk up*.
Truly surreal mix of people who have climbed it and trained it.
Should be able to do it without car hire.
Enjoy!
posted by 92_elements at 12:46 PM on October 9, 2014
Train travel
I'ld book train tickets in advance if you can. Cheaper tickets are usually available the sooner you book. I don't know if there are cheaper tickets for visitors from the states?
Our train coverage is pretty good though the price structure is bizarre. You can get returns or singles. Or lots of other options.
Www.eastcoast.co.uk is the cheapest for me. Though look around.
Have you worked out which route you want to take between Edingbrugh (two stations) and Landono?
Conwy is a lovely town.
Snowdon:
Be aware that the weather makes such a difference and can change rapidly.
There's at least four different routes up ranging from straightforward to hair raising. You'll need a map, compass, torch, waterproofs etc.
My mum took the train and enjoyed it, meeting me and my dad at the cafe on top. I think you can book tickets in advance. Though no guarantee that you will be able to get a ride down *if you walk up*.
Truly surreal mix of people who have climbed it and trained it.
Should be able to do it without car hire.
Enjoy!
posted by 92_elements at 12:46 PM on October 9, 2014
Booking trains in advance: Ideally, yes, it will save you money especially on a long trip like that.
But: It means you can only take that one train that you booked. Miss the train? Have to buy a new ticket at full price. Decide to go on a different day? New ticket, full price.
posted by EndsOfInvention at 12:47 PM on October 9, 2014
But: It means you can only take that one train that you booked. Miss the train? Have to buy a new ticket at full price. Decide to go on a different day? New ticket, full price.
posted by EndsOfInvention at 12:47 PM on October 9, 2014
Booking a ticket can mean you get a guaranteed reserved seat too, but not on all parts of the journey.
posted by EndsOfInvention at 12:48 PM on October 9, 2014
posted by EndsOfInvention at 12:48 PM on October 9, 2014
We hiked the path up Snowdon with not-too-much trouble. There are some steep segments, but it is nothing terrible. If you are in any kind of shape, as your details suggest, you should be fine. Make sure you choose wisely and don't start up one of the more difficult paths.
As far as what to do in Wales, some of my favorite times in the north were seeing neolithic grave mounds, sometimes in the middle of a farmer's field. If you happen to be in a little town called Gwytherin, near Betys-y-Coed, check out the Lion pub and B&B . Really nice.
posted by Kafkaesque at 12:58 PM on October 9, 2014
As far as what to do in Wales, some of my favorite times in the north were seeing neolithic grave mounds, sometimes in the middle of a farmer's field. If you happen to be in a little town called Gwytherin, near Betys-y-Coed, check out the Lion pub and B&B . Really nice.
posted by Kafkaesque at 12:58 PM on October 9, 2014
As noted above, there are multiple paths up. The one I took was definitely in the "long but never frightening" category. There are others where you are on a knife edge as wide as your boot.
posted by Chrysostom at 12:59 PM on October 9, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by Chrysostom at 12:59 PM on October 9, 2014 [1 favorite]
Depends on the ticket. The very cheapest ticket do pin you to a particular train. But an off peak return is often only a £20-30 more which allows *some* flexibility.
At the moment £242 return for the two of you is the price I see for an off peak return. The seat Reservation only applies to one train though. You're going to have a few changes on the way there, perhaps cos it's a Sunday?
posted by 92_elements at 1:01 PM on October 9, 2014
At the moment £242 return for the two of you is the price I see for an off peak return. The seat Reservation only applies to one train though. You're going to have a few changes on the way there, perhaps cos it's a Sunday?
posted by 92_elements at 1:01 PM on October 9, 2014
Oh, and I use nationalrail.co.uk, which tells you if it's cheaper to get a return ticket or two singles, and then links to the relevant train company site to buy the ticket.
posted by EndsOfInvention at 1:02 PM on October 9, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by EndsOfInvention at 1:02 PM on October 9, 2014 [1 favorite]
My husband and I hiked up Snowdon last summer in August. We took the Watkin Path and enjoyed the hike up and down immensely, though parts of this path are quite steep, right on the edge and not for people suffering from acrophobia.
In August it was impossible to get a ticket for the rack railway without booking in advance, but this may be different in October.
Enjoy your trip, we loved Wales!
posted by amf at 1:02 PM on October 9, 2014
In August it was impossible to get a ticket for the rack railway without booking in advance, but this may be different in October.
Enjoy your trip, we loved Wales!
posted by amf at 1:02 PM on October 9, 2014
Snowden is not a difficult walk if you are used to the Rockies - I walked up the pyg trail, supposedly the hardest non-scrambling route, with my 65yr old not-terribly-physically-brave mum and she was fine. The main path by the side of the railway is tarmacked and as wide as a road, so your wife will certainly manage. People take pushchairs up that route.
It does get foggy so try to get up there as early in the day as possible - every year people wander off the trail in the fog and injure themselves. That is the main risk, not the actual path itself which is fine. It's also pretty cold up there in the fog, so bring an extra jumper just in case.
You've picked a great itinerary - Caernarfon castle is the best. You'll have no trouble getting a couple of cases on the buses and trains, but if you are the type to pack 4 massive suitcases each then yes you might annoy people. They'll still let you on, but the buses here are more like skibuses than greyhounds, so you will get in people's way if you bring loads of luggage and they will grumble about you in Welsh.
Definitely book your train tickets in advance - you'll pay SO much more for a walk-up ticket. Also look into whether getting a two together railcard will save you any money - it gives you 1/3 off the price of tickets for a year (but usually excludes superadvance tickets, so check first).
posted by tinkletown at 2:50 PM on October 9, 2014 [1 favorite]
It does get foggy so try to get up there as early in the day as possible - every year people wander off the trail in the fog and injure themselves. That is the main risk, not the actual path itself which is fine. It's also pretty cold up there in the fog, so bring an extra jumper just in case.
You've picked a great itinerary - Caernarfon castle is the best. You'll have no trouble getting a couple of cases on the buses and trains, but if you are the type to pack 4 massive suitcases each then yes you might annoy people. They'll still let you on, but the buses here are more like skibuses than greyhounds, so you will get in people's way if you bring loads of luggage and they will grumble about you in Welsh.
Definitely book your train tickets in advance - you'll pay SO much more for a walk-up ticket. Also look into whether getting a two together railcard will save you any money - it gives you 1/3 off the price of tickets for a year (but usually excludes superadvance tickets, so check first).
posted by tinkletown at 2:50 PM on October 9, 2014 [1 favorite]
I walk up Snowdon every year with a varying group of people in varying states of fitness some time between September and November. We go up the Watkin path because the cottage where we stay is at the bottom of it, and as amf mentioned, there is a little scrambling near the top on that route. With the Llanberis path, the Ranger path, the PYG track and the Miners track. I've been up in lots of weather, and as long as you're down by sunset and it's not been snowing, I'd say you don't really need to take any precautions except warm clothing and food and drink. If the railway's not running, the cafe won't be open, although there are hot drink vending machines at the summit, so take coins if you'd want those.
In terms of trains, I've looked up those dates, and there's no advance tickets through to Llandudno Junction. Flexible tickets are £159.40 with a Two Together railcard, £242.00 without it, so you will definitely be better off buying it for this journey (it does apply to nearly all advance tickets, and it also applies to the Explore North & Mid Wales pass, of which more in the next paragraph).
What I would suggest is you buy tickets from Edinburgh to Crewe (£129.40 flexible tickets for both of you with the Two Together railcard*, from £75.20 with advance tickets), and then buy your Explore Wales passes at Crewe (£42.20 each, £84.40 for both of you), which will give you 4 out of 8 days free train travel in Wales, starting in Crewe, free bus travel for all 8 days, and two for one entry at Conwy Castle, Caernarfon Castle and half price on the Ffestiniog railway. I think you'll come out slightly ahead financially (rural buses are expensive) with the pass if you buy the flexible tickets and well ahead if you buy the advance tickets, and it'll be more convenient.
Your luggage is unlikely to be a problem on the buses, which look large and won't be full, but will be, if my recent experience in Cornwall is anything to go by, quite well used. For bus times and running information, I use First Bus's app (Android, iPhone) which shows all operators, and live running times when available, scheduled times when not. I appreciate that's quite an information dump, but hopefully it's useful. You should have a great time!
*click "Passengers and Railcards" on that page, and set Adults to 2, click "Add Railcard", select Two Together and set that to 1 to get price quotes with the railcard.
posted by ambrosen at 4:01 PM on October 9, 2014 [6 favorites]
In terms of trains, I've looked up those dates, and there's no advance tickets through to Llandudno Junction. Flexible tickets are £159.40 with a Two Together railcard, £242.00 without it, so you will definitely be better off buying it for this journey (it does apply to nearly all advance tickets, and it also applies to the Explore North & Mid Wales pass, of which more in the next paragraph).
What I would suggest is you buy tickets from Edinburgh to Crewe (£129.40 flexible tickets for both of you with the Two Together railcard*, from £75.20 with advance tickets), and then buy your Explore Wales passes at Crewe (£42.20 each, £84.40 for both of you), which will give you 4 out of 8 days free train travel in Wales, starting in Crewe, free bus travel for all 8 days, and two for one entry at Conwy Castle, Caernarfon Castle and half price on the Ffestiniog railway. I think you'll come out slightly ahead financially (rural buses are expensive) with the pass if you buy the flexible tickets and well ahead if you buy the advance tickets, and it'll be more convenient.
Your luggage is unlikely to be a problem on the buses, which look large and won't be full, but will be, if my recent experience in Cornwall is anything to go by, quite well used. For bus times and running information, I use First Bus's app (Android, iPhone) which shows all operators, and live running times when available, scheduled times when not. I appreciate that's quite an information dump, but hopefully it's useful. You should have a great time!
*click "Passengers and Railcards" on that page, and set Adults to 2, click "Add Railcard", select Two Together and set that to 1 to get price quotes with the railcard.
posted by ambrosen at 4:01 PM on October 9, 2014 [6 favorites]
Oops, I didn't cover returning from Porthmadog to Edinburgh: you may want to get the bus to Bangor and use the North Wales coast railway line via Llandudno Junction, which is quite scenic, but you'll have done before, or you can use the equally scenic mid-Wales line and get the train straight through to Shrewsbury, and catch your train through to Crewe from there (all using the Explore Wales pass). Both journeys take about the same amount of time, so the choice of whether to use train or bus is yours.
posted by ambrosen at 4:10 PM on October 9, 2014
posted by ambrosen at 4:10 PM on October 9, 2014
Wales is awesome.
From past experience, I think you're budgeting too much time in Llandudno and Portmeirion. Portmeirion is tiny, and Llandudno was kiddie tourist trap/state fair stuff when I was there. Caernarfon was incredible, but kind of small. Those should be a half day each, max. Take more pictures than you think you need to, especially in Portmeirion.
(I burned four rolls of film there, and I should have burned sixteen. Yeah, yeah, get off my lawn.
If you get a chance to get to Harlech, it's not that far and that's another phenomenal castle you can cross off of your list.
(We hit up Warwick on the way back to Birmingham. (Hey, maybe you don't have a list, that's okay. (Shut up, lists about castles are cool.)))
We had a couple of friend-owned SUV's to drive the eight of us and our crap around, so I can't remark too much about local public transportation, but gas was expensive as shit even then. I was known as "petrol Bo", because the gas stations could take my credit card, and the bnb's couldn't. So I paid in gas, err petrol.
To reiterate, Wales is awesome. I'm insanely jealous about your trip. Have fun!
posted by Sphinx at 4:59 PM on October 9, 2014
From past experience, I think you're budgeting too much time in Llandudno and Portmeirion. Portmeirion is tiny, and Llandudno was kiddie tourist trap/state fair stuff when I was there. Caernarfon was incredible, but kind of small. Those should be a half day each, max. Take more pictures than you think you need to, especially in Portmeirion.
(I burned four rolls of film there, and I should have burned sixteen. Yeah, yeah, get off my lawn.
If you get a chance to get to Harlech, it's not that far and that's another phenomenal castle you can cross off of your list.
(We hit up Warwick on the way back to Birmingham. (Hey, maybe you don't have a list, that's okay. (Shut up, lists about castles are cool.)))
We had a couple of friend-owned SUV's to drive the eight of us and our crap around, so I can't remark too much about local public transportation, but gas was expensive as shit even then. I was known as "petrol Bo", because the gas stations could take my credit card, and the bnb's couldn't. So I paid in gas, err petrol.
To reiterate, Wales is awesome. I'm insanely jealous about your trip. Have fun!
posted by Sphinx at 4:59 PM on October 9, 2014
Response by poster: I expected the first day in Llandudno to be mostly eaten up by travel time, and then our only real plans were to see the little Punch & Judy show and then a restaurant/pub. The following day was to going to be mainly Conwy. Also I wanted to stay at least 2 nights in each place so I didn't feel rushed.
Does it still seem like an excessive amount of time?
posted by Pruitt-Igoe at 6:30 PM on October 9, 2014
Does it still seem like an excessive amount of time?
posted by Pruitt-Igoe at 6:30 PM on October 9, 2014
Response by poster: ambrosen/tinkletown, thanks for the transport tips!
How are the buses for luggage? I expect the trains to have some room overhead, but if the buses are just city buses on a rural road I might want to pack extra light?
posted by Pruitt-Igoe at 6:31 PM on October 9, 2014
How are the buses for luggage? I expect the trains to have some room overhead, but if the buses are just city buses on a rural road I might want to pack extra light?
posted by Pruitt-Igoe at 6:31 PM on October 9, 2014
Will there be spacious luggage racks? No. Will there be somewhere to put your luggage? Yes, provided it's not too big.
Personally, I'd feel safest bringing airline carry on size luggage with me as there would almost certainly be somewhere to put it, either on the seat next to me (with my partner in the row in front or behind) in a luggage rack up front, or most likely in the wheelchair/pushchair space, assuming it's unused. Anything larger than that might be inconvenient, but one each is hopefully enough for a 5 day trip, and you'll probably have to walk around with it a bit anyway, around stations and to B&Bs and suchlike. I don't know how light that counts as packing (and if you can leave the rest of your luggage in Edinburgh).
posted by ambrosen at 7:12 PM on October 9, 2014
Personally, I'd feel safest bringing airline carry on size luggage with me as there would almost certainly be somewhere to put it, either on the seat next to me (with my partner in the row in front or behind) in a luggage rack up front, or most likely in the wheelchair/pushchair space, assuming it's unused. Anything larger than that might be inconvenient, but one each is hopefully enough for a 5 day trip, and you'll probably have to walk around with it a bit anyway, around stations and to B&Bs and suchlike. I don't know how light that counts as packing (and if you can leave the rest of your luggage in Edinburgh).
posted by ambrosen at 7:12 PM on October 9, 2014
I was in the UK just now in September, walking the Coast to Coast route. I booked my trains when still in Canada with The Train Line ( www.trainline.com ) and got significant savings over the national railway site. I could choose first or second class and make seat reservations if desired. The process was very easy.
At the completion of my trip I took a bus from Robin Hoods Bay to Scarborough so I could take a train to York. I had a big suitcase. There was room for my suitcase at the front of the bus, no problem. The bus was very comfortable on its 30 minute journey and dropped me off at the station.
It was far easier to do trains buses and planes in the UK than similar travel in Canada. Highly recommend the trainline for savings on tickets.
posted by seawallrunner at 11:10 PM on October 9, 2014
At the completion of my trip I took a bus from Robin Hoods Bay to Scarborough so I could take a train to York. I had a big suitcase. There was room for my suitcase at the front of the bus, no problem. The bus was very comfortable on its 30 minute journey and dropped me off at the station.
It was far easier to do trains buses and planes in the UK than similar travel in Canada. Highly recommend the trainline for savings on tickets.
posted by seawallrunner at 11:10 PM on October 9, 2014
Response by poster: I bought my Two Together rail pass and it's on its way to my friends in Edinburgh. Great tip! It was £30 and has already saved me something like £160.
I moved my trip out to Llandudno to Saturday the 25th - we couldn't make the timing work on Sunday. Now I'll be going directly from Edinburgh to Llandudno (the town), changing trains once. On the way back it'll be Porthmadog to Edinburgh by train, again changing once.
The station in Llandudno will still be open when we arrive, so we can pick up our Explore Wales passes there. Is it still worth buying, to cover 6 days of local buses, the 2-hour trip from from Llandudno to Porthmadog, and the discounts on the historical sites and the Ffestinog & Welsh Highlands Railways?
posted by Pruitt-Igoe at 6:21 PM on October 13, 2014
I moved my trip out to Llandudno to Saturday the 25th - we couldn't make the timing work on Sunday. Now I'll be going directly from Edinburgh to Llandudno (the town), changing trains once. On the way back it'll be Porthmadog to Edinburgh by train, again changing once.
The station in Llandudno will still be open when we arrive, so we can pick up our Explore Wales passes there. Is it still worth buying, to cover 6 days of local buses, the 2-hour trip from from Llandudno to Porthmadog, and the discounts on the historical sites and the Ffestinog & Welsh Highlands Railways?
posted by Pruitt-Igoe at 6:21 PM on October 13, 2014
Response by poster: Update, if anyone cares :)
Great trip, and I would recommend it to friends.
We went up the Ranger path to Snowdon, and back down the one to Rhyd Ddu. We spent at least 45 minutes at the peak, and went at a leisurely pace. My wife was exhausted, but this hike was totally doable for us. It took us 7 hours total.
3 days is not too long in Llandudno. We loved it. I ran around the Great Orme; one of the best runs of my life. We missed the Punch and Judy show (too late in the season), and I will admit the pier was kind of cheesy. Kind of like Santa Monica Pier, or the Navy Pier in Chicago, but without the big rides, and with nicer iron and glass architecture.
I did end up buying the Explore Wales passes from an unhelpful old attendant in Llandudno station. I think we came out slightly ahead by buying them, or maybe just broke even. But either way the convenience of not having to worry about carrying cash or figuring out bus fares was worth it.
Express Motors kind of sucks. They had no fare information on their website (or on the Traveline Cymru site), and they totally did not show up for our 07:20 bus from Porthmadog to Beddgelert (on the way to Snowdon). We had to take a cab to Beddgelert that morning for £20.
If I did this again I would consider staying in Caernarfon instead of Porthmadog for the second part of the trip. I think I liked being in Porthmadog more, lack of castle and ruins aside, but the bus services in Porthmadog are really sparse.
posted by Pruitt-Igoe at 2:32 PM on November 3, 2014 [4 favorites]
Great trip, and I would recommend it to friends.
We went up the Ranger path to Snowdon, and back down the one to Rhyd Ddu. We spent at least 45 minutes at the peak, and went at a leisurely pace. My wife was exhausted, but this hike was totally doable for us. It took us 7 hours total.
3 days is not too long in Llandudno. We loved it. I ran around the Great Orme; one of the best runs of my life. We missed the Punch and Judy show (too late in the season), and I will admit the pier was kind of cheesy. Kind of like Santa Monica Pier, or the Navy Pier in Chicago, but without the big rides, and with nicer iron and glass architecture.
I did end up buying the Explore Wales passes from an unhelpful old attendant in Llandudno station. I think we came out slightly ahead by buying them, or maybe just broke even. But either way the convenience of not having to worry about carrying cash or figuring out bus fares was worth it.
Express Motors kind of sucks. They had no fare information on their website (or on the Traveline Cymru site), and they totally did not show up for our 07:20 bus from Porthmadog to Beddgelert (on the way to Snowdon). We had to take a cab to Beddgelert that morning for £20.
If I did this again I would consider staying in Caernarfon instead of Porthmadog for the second part of the trip. I think I liked being in Porthmadog more, lack of castle and ruins aside, but the bus services in Porthmadog are really sparse.
posted by Pruitt-Igoe at 2:32 PM on November 3, 2014 [4 favorites]
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by Pruitt-Igoe at 12:32 PM on October 9, 2014