Is this (used, dirty car) a contender?
October 6, 2014 6:41 AM Subscribe
On the hunt for a very good deal on a used vehicle. Getting tired of looking. Saw a car yesterday, but it was not clean and some of the vehicle information didn't match the ad. Tell me if there are too many red flags here.
Went to see a CPO car at a dealer an hour away from us yesterday. Called ahead of time, was told that it was indeed available. We arrived an hour and a half before closing.
The trouble:
- We get there and the dealer says that the car is listed as available but their attendant cannot find it on any of their lots.
- The dealer asks if we "wouldn't mind coming back tomorrow" to look at the vehicle. We explained that we did, indeed mind, since we called ahead of time and drove an hour to see the car. We asked if he would do a bit more work to find the car.
- The dealer makes some phone calls and after 15 minutes or so, "discovers" that the car is there -- but one of the managers has been driving it. The dealers did not know that the manager had it, thus the confusion.
- We are taken to the car for a test drive. We find that the trim level is higher than listed on the site (it looks like a clerical error -- the headline for the car online is a lower trim, but when we looked at the pictures on the site again, we confirmed that it was indeed the higher trim level).
- The car was dirty. Obviously still being driven by the manager. The dash was dusty, the cup holder filled with loose change. There are scratches on the bumpers (front and back) that were conveniently cropped out of the photos posted online.
- The odometer reading is 3,000 miles higher than what's listed on the dealer's site. We checked the VIN etching on the back window and found that it DOES match what's on the site. We checked the carfax again and saw that when the car was received by the dealer a few months ago, the odometer reading was the # listed on the site. This suggests that the manager put on 3,000 miles in a little under three months.
- The dealer would not let us take it on a highway test drive yesterday, claiming that they were going to be "closing the gate" soon. I thought he was exaggerating or simply out of his mind ((don't you close a dealership once the last customer has purchased their car!?)) But literally, as soon as we got back to the dealer, the attendants were in fact closing the gate and everyone was going home. The dealer tried to get us to come in and talk numbers after the test drive, but we were so annoyed at 1) the car not being found in the first place 2) being given a dirty car to test drive and 3) being rushed out the door that we politely said we'd be leaving and would be in touch the next day.
So here are my questions/dilemmas;
1) The car is listened under value, even with the added 3,000 miles on the odometer. (I re-ran the NADA numbers and it's still a great deal). It's pretty much exactly the car I want. But the odometer thing is troubling me. Is this something I should try to negotiate? (Note: I am paying in cash. I know, once we get to the paperwork stage, they will likely try to hassle me about the price and claim that it's only "the price" if I finance with them. But two of their dealers who have said that they can sell the price at the number listed on the site even if we pay in cash). To what extent should the odometer difference factor into decision making process? What concerns would you have, if any? Should I use it as a bargaining chip to work down from the number listed on the site?
2) What about the scratches? If the selling price is still within my budget and under value, should I even try to use this to negotiate the number down further, or just let it slide? (I asked if they would do any touching up and he said they would, but some of the scratches would like still be visible). Personally, the scratching isn't bad enough to worry me.
3) The certification: It was certified 3 months ago, but the manager put on 3,000 miles since then. What is the normal procedure? Do they have to "certify it" again, putting it through the inspection prior to delivery? Should I put a deposit down on the car specifying that they have to do this step before I will buy?
4) I intend to get an independent mechanic to take a look at it. Should that mechanic look at it only after the dealer has "certified it again"?
5) The dirt: Since the car wasn't clean, should we wait until they have it "show room ready" to put in a bid, or go ahead and do it now?
In short: Is this car a contender, or should we just keep looking elsewhere? Too many red flags?How would you proceed?
Went to see a CPO car at a dealer an hour away from us yesterday. Called ahead of time, was told that it was indeed available. We arrived an hour and a half before closing.
The trouble:
- We get there and the dealer says that the car is listed as available but their attendant cannot find it on any of their lots.
- The dealer asks if we "wouldn't mind coming back tomorrow" to look at the vehicle. We explained that we did, indeed mind, since we called ahead of time and drove an hour to see the car. We asked if he would do a bit more work to find the car.
- The dealer makes some phone calls and after 15 minutes or so, "discovers" that the car is there -- but one of the managers has been driving it. The dealers did not know that the manager had it, thus the confusion.
- We are taken to the car for a test drive. We find that the trim level is higher than listed on the site (it looks like a clerical error -- the headline for the car online is a lower trim, but when we looked at the pictures on the site again, we confirmed that it was indeed the higher trim level).
- The car was dirty. Obviously still being driven by the manager. The dash was dusty, the cup holder filled with loose change. There are scratches on the bumpers (front and back) that were conveniently cropped out of the photos posted online.
- The odometer reading is 3,000 miles higher than what's listed on the dealer's site. We checked the VIN etching on the back window and found that it DOES match what's on the site. We checked the carfax again and saw that when the car was received by the dealer a few months ago, the odometer reading was the # listed on the site. This suggests that the manager put on 3,000 miles in a little under three months.
- The dealer would not let us take it on a highway test drive yesterday, claiming that they were going to be "closing the gate" soon. I thought he was exaggerating or simply out of his mind ((don't you close a dealership once the last customer has purchased their car!?)) But literally, as soon as we got back to the dealer, the attendants were in fact closing the gate and everyone was going home. The dealer tried to get us to come in and talk numbers after the test drive, but we were so annoyed at 1) the car not being found in the first place 2) being given a dirty car to test drive and 3) being rushed out the door that we politely said we'd be leaving and would be in touch the next day.
So here are my questions/dilemmas;
1) The car is listened under value, even with the added 3,000 miles on the odometer. (I re-ran the NADA numbers and it's still a great deal). It's pretty much exactly the car I want. But the odometer thing is troubling me. Is this something I should try to negotiate? (Note: I am paying in cash. I know, once we get to the paperwork stage, they will likely try to hassle me about the price and claim that it's only "the price" if I finance with them. But two of their dealers who have said that they can sell the price at the number listed on the site even if we pay in cash). To what extent should the odometer difference factor into decision making process? What concerns would you have, if any? Should I use it as a bargaining chip to work down from the number listed on the site?
2) What about the scratches? If the selling price is still within my budget and under value, should I even try to use this to negotiate the number down further, or just let it slide? (I asked if they would do any touching up and he said they would, but some of the scratches would like still be visible). Personally, the scratching isn't bad enough to worry me.
3) The certification: It was certified 3 months ago, but the manager put on 3,000 miles since then. What is the normal procedure? Do they have to "certify it" again, putting it through the inspection prior to delivery? Should I put a deposit down on the car specifying that they have to do this step before I will buy?
4) I intend to get an independent mechanic to take a look at it. Should that mechanic look at it only after the dealer has "certified it again"?
5) The dirt: Since the car wasn't clean, should we wait until they have it "show room ready" to put in a bid, or go ahead and do it now?
In short: Is this car a contender, or should we just keep looking elsewhere? Too many red flags?How would you proceed?
When you're buying a used car, there is pretty much never a reason not to ask them to lower the price. In this particular case, you've got 2 reasons: the odometer is higher than when they first priced it, and there are scratches not included in the original listing. You've also got 2 other things to ask for regardless of the price: getting it re-certified (yes, 3k miles means it needs an oil change) and getting it cleaned.
About the mechanic, they may choose not to let it off the lot until they've worked on it. If the mechanic sees it before they re-certify, then you've got a list of things they have to fix, you tell them all about it, and you kind of have to believe when they say they've fixed them. If they certify and then you take it to a mechanic, the mechanic will likely say more positive things, and/or have less to point out, which will simplify your list of demands. That would be my personal preference, mostly because I don't like making demands.
posted by aimedwander at 7:00 AM on October 6, 2014
About the mechanic, they may choose not to let it off the lot until they've worked on it. If the mechanic sees it before they re-certify, then you've got a list of things they have to fix, you tell them all about it, and you kind of have to believe when they say they've fixed them. If they certify and then you take it to a mechanic, the mechanic will likely say more positive things, and/or have less to point out, which will simplify your list of demands. That would be my personal preference, mostly because I don't like making demands.
posted by aimedwander at 7:00 AM on October 6, 2014
I have bought a car that a dealer was clearly using as his personal car while he tried to sell it. It wasn't a big deal to me that it had a few signs of everyday use because it otherwise looked well cared for and clean. It wasn't actually dirty though--as soon as he took his coffee cup out of the holder, it was 'saleable'. I would try to talk it down a bit based on the mileage and scratches on the bumpers. Maybe based on it being dirty, though if it's an older car I probably wouldn't worry about it but then again, why not?
They're being weird about it though-- I am super suspicious of car dealers when they're being squirrelly like this. Hopefully someone will be able to give you some insight why. Maybe it was simply that they knew the manager was driving it and it wasn't clean, or maybe there's more of a story.
posted by geegollygosh at 7:07 AM on October 6, 2014 [1 favorite]
They're being weird about it though-- I am super suspicious of car dealers when they're being squirrelly like this. Hopefully someone will be able to give you some insight why. Maybe it was simply that they knew the manager was driving it and it wasn't clean, or maybe there's more of a story.
posted by geegollygosh at 7:07 AM on October 6, 2014 [1 favorite]
Best answer: You are radically overthinking this. Here are some principles you should realize before you move on:
their attendant cannot find it on any of their lots
This doesn't change the value of the car. Your time looking for the car is a sunk cost to both you and the dealer. I don't know why this matters to you.
We find that the trim level is higher than listed on the site
This does not change the value of the car. This is in your favor. I don't know why this matters to you.
The car was dirty.
This changes the value of the car. I value a dirty car approximately $200 less than a clean car, because it costs me $200 to get the car detailed. Other people value dirty cars more, because they don't care. What do you think?
The odometer reading is 3,000 miles higher than what's listed on the dealer's site.
This changes the value of the car. I try to keep cars for about 150,000 miles, so that means the car is now 2% less valuable. How long do you plan on keeping the car?
The dealer would not let us take it on a highway test drive yesterday
This doesn't change the value of the car, but I would not buy a car I haven't driven on the highway. You can take another test drive.
Let's talk about your questions:
Is this something I should try to negotiate?
I value money. As such, I minimize how much I try to spend of it. If you value money, you should negotiate, as it can't possibly hurt you and can, in fact, help you. If you do not value money, there's no reason to negotiate.
What about the scratches?
How much do you value scratches? I dislike scratches on my car less than the cost of fixing them, so my car has several visible scratches. Others disagree. Everything has a value. Figure it out, and that will lend itself to a price for the car.
The certification: It was certified 3 months ago, but the manager put on 3,000 miles since then. What is the normal procedure?
Should that mechanic look at it only after the dealer has "certified it again"?
There is no standard for used car certification (refer to rule 1. and rule 5. I posted above). Some brands put a lot of work into certification and it means a lot (specifically Toyota). Some certifications are effectively meaningless ("dealer certified" cars). You should find out what certification means for your particular car.
Should I put a deposit down on the car specifying that they have to do this step before I will buy?
I don't know. How much do you value certification? Do you value the certification enough to potentially pay more for the car for the dealer to re-certify it if necessary? I think you should see a theme in my answer by now, and it is the fundamental answer to all your questions.
Since the car wasn't clean, should we wait until they have it "show room ready" to put in a bid, or go ahead and do it now?
Figure out how much you value a clean car. Figure out how much it'll cost you to clean it. Guess how much it'll cost the dealer to clean it. I suspect the dealer can do it cheaper than you, but perhaps you do not value your time much. That will answer your question.
posted by saeculorum at 7:09 AM on October 6, 2014 [21 favorites]
- There are no rules in purchasing a car.
- You need to know how much you value a car before you can bid on it.
- A car's value to you is not the same number as the car's listed price.
- The listed price of the car is, in fact, meaningless.
- There are no rules in purchasing a car.
their attendant cannot find it on any of their lots
This doesn't change the value of the car. Your time looking for the car is a sunk cost to both you and the dealer. I don't know why this matters to you.
We find that the trim level is higher than listed on the site
This does not change the value of the car. This is in your favor. I don't know why this matters to you.
The car was dirty.
This changes the value of the car. I value a dirty car approximately $200 less than a clean car, because it costs me $200 to get the car detailed. Other people value dirty cars more, because they don't care. What do you think?
The odometer reading is 3,000 miles higher than what's listed on the dealer's site.
This changes the value of the car. I try to keep cars for about 150,000 miles, so that means the car is now 2% less valuable. How long do you plan on keeping the car?
The dealer would not let us take it on a highway test drive yesterday
This doesn't change the value of the car, but I would not buy a car I haven't driven on the highway. You can take another test drive.
Let's talk about your questions:
Is this something I should try to negotiate?
I value money. As such, I minimize how much I try to spend of it. If you value money, you should negotiate, as it can't possibly hurt you and can, in fact, help you. If you do not value money, there's no reason to negotiate.
What about the scratches?
How much do you value scratches? I dislike scratches on my car less than the cost of fixing them, so my car has several visible scratches. Others disagree. Everything has a value. Figure it out, and that will lend itself to a price for the car.
The certification: It was certified 3 months ago, but the manager put on 3,000 miles since then. What is the normal procedure?
Should that mechanic look at it only after the dealer has "certified it again"?
There is no standard for used car certification (refer to rule 1. and rule 5. I posted above). Some brands put a lot of work into certification and it means a lot (specifically Toyota). Some certifications are effectively meaningless ("dealer certified" cars). You should find out what certification means for your particular car.
Should I put a deposit down on the car specifying that they have to do this step before I will buy?
I don't know. How much do you value certification? Do you value the certification enough to potentially pay more for the car for the dealer to re-certify it if necessary? I think you should see a theme in my answer by now, and it is the fundamental answer to all your questions.
Since the car wasn't clean, should we wait until they have it "show room ready" to put in a bid, or go ahead and do it now?
Figure out how much you value a clean car. Figure out how much it'll cost you to clean it. Guess how much it'll cost the dealer to clean it. I suspect the dealer can do it cheaper than you, but perhaps you do not value your time much. That will answer your question.
posted by saeculorum at 7:09 AM on October 6, 2014 [21 favorites]
I would walk away. Maybe if the car was free, I would take it, but I would absolutely be concerned about the clutch falling apart in a few months time. This place sounds more than a little dodgy. The thought of getting these folks to handle any kind of problem seems laughable. Remember, right now they're trying to get money out of your pocket and into theirs, and they're pulling these kinds of tricks. When they have your money, my guess is that they'll rapidly stop caring.
1] They're not keeping the info on their site up to date. I wouldn't call that deliberate lying, but I would call it withholding necessary information. Which is equally as bad, in my book.
2] If you do go for this, absolutely have them repair the scratches at their cost. See #1. They didn't tell you the car was scratched, or dirty, or still being driven. Use that to your advantage. They'll be expecting you to.
3] I would have them sort out any and all problems before I gave them a penny of my money. Or at the very least, have a formal agreement that X, Y and Z problems will be corrected to your standard before you pay for the vehicle. Make sure any deposit you give is recoverable in some way.
4] I would wait until after, yes. That way, hopefully your mechanic will pick up on any problems that might have been "forgotten".
5] I would not buy a dirty car. Simple as that. I would also not buy a car where it had dirt that might possibly cover up scratches, etc.
The cost of a car is not just the sticker price. It costs money to run as well, for things such as repairs. Personally, I wouldn't gamble on this particular horse.
posted by Solomon at 7:12 AM on October 6, 2014
1] They're not keeping the info on their site up to date. I wouldn't call that deliberate lying, but I would call it withholding necessary information. Which is equally as bad, in my book.
2] If you do go for this, absolutely have them repair the scratches at their cost. See #1. They didn't tell you the car was scratched, or dirty, or still being driven. Use that to your advantage. They'll be expecting you to.
3] I would have them sort out any and all problems before I gave them a penny of my money. Or at the very least, have a formal agreement that X, Y and Z problems will be corrected to your standard before you pay for the vehicle. Make sure any deposit you give is recoverable in some way.
4] I would wait until after, yes. That way, hopefully your mechanic will pick up on any problems that might have been "forgotten".
5] I would not buy a dirty car. Simple as that. I would also not buy a car where it had dirt that might possibly cover up scratches, etc.
The cost of a car is not just the sticker price. It costs money to run as well, for things such as repairs. Personally, I wouldn't gamble on this particular horse.
posted by Solomon at 7:12 AM on October 6, 2014
Response by poster: Clarification: It's a brand-certified pre owned car .. being sold by a brand dealer. It is not a dealer certified car. And it still has a couple years left on the original manufacturer's warranty, plus the extended powertrain warranty that comes with the brand CPO program.
And yes, the dealer seems to be in general a hot mess (from online reviews), so even if this is a good value (and I think it is), I am worried about buying from a "hot mess dealer". If I buy from them, can I just get service done on the car elsewhere in the future?
posted by Gray Skies at 7:20 AM on October 6, 2014 [1 favorite]
And yes, the dealer seems to be in general a hot mess (from online reviews), so even if this is a good value (and I think it is), I am worried about buying from a "hot mess dealer". If I buy from them, can I just get service done on the car elsewhere in the future?
posted by Gray Skies at 7:20 AM on October 6, 2014 [1 favorite]
I think the car is a contender, but the dealer sucks. You will need to interact with this dealer going forward if it needs warranty work or if it needs to be worked on by them to maintain the warranty.
The three thousand miles is certainly a point on which to negotiate. Also, if the certification includes a warranty based on mileage, make sure it starts at the mileage on the car when purchased, not when certified.
I personally would negotiate to buy the car. Only you can determine what it is worth to you.
posted by 724A at 7:26 AM on October 6, 2014 [2 favorites]
The three thousand miles is certainly a point on which to negotiate. Also, if the certification includes a warranty based on mileage, make sure it starts at the mileage on the car when purchased, not when certified.
I personally would negotiate to buy the car. Only you can determine what it is worth to you.
posted by 724A at 7:26 AM on October 6, 2014 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: 724A: I'm confused - couldn't I get the car serviced at any brand authorized dealer? Why would I need to go back to them specifically?
posted by Gray Skies at 7:29 AM on October 6, 2014
posted by Gray Skies at 7:29 AM on October 6, 2014
If it is a Subaru you can absolutely get the car serviced at any authorized Subaru dealership.
posted by chesty_a_arthur at 7:32 AM on October 6, 2014
posted by chesty_a_arthur at 7:32 AM on October 6, 2014
I did not see your update. If it is a brand warranty, then presumably you are correct and could get it serviced at any brand certified dealer.
posted by 724A at 7:35 AM on October 6, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by 724A at 7:35 AM on October 6, 2014 [1 favorite]
Yes, you can get it serviced and/or have warranty work done at any dealer that supports that brand.
Look up the value multiple places (KBB.com, edmunds.com, NADA, etc.), I don't really trust NADA numbers and dealers don't really use them. Some banks use NADA numbers when they underwrite loans but they are about the only people who look at them. Run it both with the advertised mileage and the mileage it actually has to see how big a difference this makes.
I wouldn't actually use that difference in figuring out how much to offer because it doesn't really matter. It really is about how much that car is worth to you and how much the dealer is willing to sell it for. You want to find that latter number and if it's lower than the former, you buy the car. I would however, use the difference in mileage as a justification for your offer if you want to.
It's absolutely okay say, "I will buy that car for $X....just because." You don't need to justify it as long as you can make it clear to the dealer that you're serious about buying the car. Having been the salesman on the other side of that desk, I can tell you that they don't really care. But, people often feel more comfortable.
The fact that the car was dirty isn't a big deal but I would ask them to clean it up before you go look at it again. They don't need to have it detailed or anything, just clean enough that you can make sure the dirt isn't hiding anything major. It's new enough that it's very unlikely but it can't hurt to check.
The rest of it sounds pretty innocent to me. If one of the managers is using it for a demo, I'm sure that not letting you get on the freeway really was about the time. He probably wasn't certain that everyone knew he was out on a test drive and wanted to make sure that you didn't get locked out or maybe he was just in a hurry to get home.
I wouldn't worry about having it re-certified. 3,000 miles isn't really a big deal and there isn't anything that they could catch that your mechanic won't. The certification is usually more about making sure that there aren't any major mechanical issues before they give it the CPO designation any extension of the manufacturer's warranty that might go with it.
posted by VTX at 8:26 AM on October 6, 2014 [1 favorite]
Look up the value multiple places (KBB.com, edmunds.com, NADA, etc.), I don't really trust NADA numbers and dealers don't really use them. Some banks use NADA numbers when they underwrite loans but they are about the only people who look at them. Run it both with the advertised mileage and the mileage it actually has to see how big a difference this makes.
I wouldn't actually use that difference in figuring out how much to offer because it doesn't really matter. It really is about how much that car is worth to you and how much the dealer is willing to sell it for. You want to find that latter number and if it's lower than the former, you buy the car. I would however, use the difference in mileage as a justification for your offer if you want to.
It's absolutely okay say, "I will buy that car for $X....just because." You don't need to justify it as long as you can make it clear to the dealer that you're serious about buying the car. Having been the salesman on the other side of that desk, I can tell you that they don't really care. But, people often feel more comfortable.
The fact that the car was dirty isn't a big deal but I would ask them to clean it up before you go look at it again. They don't need to have it detailed or anything, just clean enough that you can make sure the dirt isn't hiding anything major. It's new enough that it's very unlikely but it can't hurt to check.
The rest of it sounds pretty innocent to me. If one of the managers is using it for a demo, I'm sure that not letting you get on the freeway really was about the time. He probably wasn't certain that everyone knew he was out on a test drive and wanted to make sure that you didn't get locked out or maybe he was just in a hurry to get home.
I wouldn't worry about having it re-certified. 3,000 miles isn't really a big deal and there isn't anything that they could catch that your mechanic won't. The certification is usually more about making sure that there aren't any major mechanical issues before they give it the CPO designation any extension of the manufacturer's warranty that might go with it.
posted by VTX at 8:26 AM on October 6, 2014 [1 favorite]
1) If the car was listed for a certain price initially and now it's been driven an additional 3,000 miles, it should definitely be a lower price. How does that mileage effect the blue book value?
2) I dunno. You could try it, and it does seem slimy that they cropped out the scratches, but it's not as cut and dried as the additional mileage, to me. They will of course deny that they purposefully cropped out the scratches.
3) I don't know what's involved in their certification, but if it were me, I'd certainly be suspicious of whether or not it was damaged during that additional 3,000 miles. If you think the "certification" is even worth anything in the first place, then yes it should be re-certified.
4) Again, don't know the details of what "certification" by the dealer entails, but it can't hurt to have both. I think the dealer certification should be done after the mechanic looks at it; otherwise they can say the mechanic did something to it that invalidated the certification.
5) The dirt: I don't think that matters at all. It's easy enough to clean, right? I mean you just describe it as dust and loose change, not spills and stains.
Basically, they are going to try to sell it to you for as much as possible, and you are going to try to pay as little as possible. The reasons you give for why you should pay less probably don't matter much if at all to the dealer. Just decide how much you would be willing to pay for it, and then go in with good negotiation skills and be ready to walk away if they don't come down enough on price.
posted by mysterious_stranger at 8:28 AM on October 6, 2014 [1 favorite]
2) I dunno. You could try it, and it does seem slimy that they cropped out the scratches, but it's not as cut and dried as the additional mileage, to me. They will of course deny that they purposefully cropped out the scratches.
3) I don't know what's involved in their certification, but if it were me, I'd certainly be suspicious of whether or not it was damaged during that additional 3,000 miles. If you think the "certification" is even worth anything in the first place, then yes it should be re-certified.
4) Again, don't know the details of what "certification" by the dealer entails, but it can't hurt to have both. I think the dealer certification should be done after the mechanic looks at it; otherwise they can say the mechanic did something to it that invalidated the certification.
5) The dirt: I don't think that matters at all. It's easy enough to clean, right? I mean you just describe it as dust and loose change, not spills and stains.
Basically, they are going to try to sell it to you for as much as possible, and you are going to try to pay as little as possible. The reasons you give for why you should pay less probably don't matter much if at all to the dealer. Just decide how much you would be willing to pay for it, and then go in with good negotiation skills and be ready to walk away if they don't come down enough on price.
posted by mysterious_stranger at 8:28 AM on October 6, 2014 [1 favorite]
some of the vehicle information didn't match the ad
Run away. Run far, far away. RUUUUUNNNNNN.
Seriously, there are other cars out there. Why borrow trouble?
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 9:12 AM on October 6, 2014 [1 favorite]
Run away. Run far, far away. RUUUUUNNNNNN.
Seriously, there are other cars out there. Why borrow trouble?
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 9:12 AM on October 6, 2014 [1 favorite]
Since they are a "hot mess" did you check the VIN against what they say? In any case, it looks dodgy and if they are not budging on the price then you can walk away. Seriously, the cost of detailing, the extra miles, scratches are just the surface warnings. You are looking at risk and you have other options. The car brand is also an issue, are you going for warranty from a maker who, frankly, has issues with even new cars e.g., recalls for safety. A new used car is a bit oxymoronic and you should follow saecalorum's advice above.
posted by jadepearl at 9:28 AM on October 6, 2014
posted by jadepearl at 9:28 AM on October 6, 2014
While the actual MacGuffin (this particular car) may be a fine deal, the people selling it are too much of a mess to bother with.
Just because NADA and KBB and Edumuds say a car is worth $$$, it ain't necessarily so.
If they don't care enough about selling you a vehicle that they didn't bother putting their best foot forward on this, what other surprises are in store for you?
Another huge red flag. If this vehicle is such an awesome deal, WHY hasn't someone else scooped it up in the past 3 months? Cars don't linger on lots if they're priced correctly and are Brand Certified and ready to go.
You didn't come here to ask us this question because you don't have good common sense, you do. You just need to listen to what your head and your gut are telling you. "Yes, this price seems too good to be true, and yes, there's probably a reason for that."
There are plenty of cars out there. Get one from a dealer you feel comfortable with.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 9:42 AM on October 6, 2014 [2 favorites]
Just because NADA and KBB and Edumuds say a car is worth $$$, it ain't necessarily so.
If they don't care enough about selling you a vehicle that they didn't bother putting their best foot forward on this, what other surprises are in store for you?
Another huge red flag. If this vehicle is such an awesome deal, WHY hasn't someone else scooped it up in the past 3 months? Cars don't linger on lots if they're priced correctly and are Brand Certified and ready to go.
You didn't come here to ask us this question because you don't have good common sense, you do. You just need to listen to what your head and your gut are telling you. "Yes, this price seems too good to be true, and yes, there's probably a reason for that."
There are plenty of cars out there. Get one from a dealer you feel comfortable with.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 9:42 AM on October 6, 2014 [2 favorites]
saeculorum said everything that can be said, meaningfully. And I want to reread his post when I next buy a car.
posted by IAmBroom at 11:31 AM on October 6, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by IAmBroom at 11:31 AM on October 6, 2014 [1 favorite]
I don't understand how the manager could keep driving it like that when it had been brand certified. Do those miles count against what you get on the warranty? Is it now not certified? Could it even be recertified per their rules? The price is only good now if it reflects a completely not certified car that never could be, not one that's nebulously "basically certified" which is probably what they're trying to pull. You should not be paying more than you would for a random car with a normal history that you can deduce. The certification thing is misdirection at this point.
I'd be very, very suspicious of this dealership and that you could get that warranty honored. I'd want to contact corporate and let them know this dealer had been doing this shady shit honestly. And yea, I wouldn't give them my money at all.
posted by emptythought at 2:41 PM on October 6, 2014 [1 favorite]
I'd be very, very suspicious of this dealership and that you could get that warranty honored. I'd want to contact corporate and let them know this dealer had been doing this shady shit honestly. And yea, I wouldn't give them my money at all.
posted by emptythought at 2:41 PM on October 6, 2014 [1 favorite]
Wouldn't buy it as clearly the manager has been using as his private run-about and probably racing it everywhere (like you do when you're using a rental car and you don't care about looking after the engine).
posted by EndsOfInvention at 4:10 PM on October 6, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by EndsOfInvention at 4:10 PM on October 6, 2014 [1 favorite]
A manager driving one of the dealership's cars is a VERY common practice. It's called a "demo" or sometimes a "shooter". It used to be that nearly every salesperson, sales manager, finance manager, and the general manager would drive a demo and pay for it with a small deduction from their paycheck. In the 1990's up until around 2002 in Minnesota, for sales people it was usually $100 deduction (but you also got a $100 bonus for NOT taking a demo). Then it went up to $200 deduction or $200 bonus. Managers usually (and I think still do) get the option of a demo for free so typically it's only managers that you see in demos. If you uncle owns the dealership where you dad is the sales manager (as mine did and was) then sometimes your mom drives a demo too.
The insurance rates for the dealership in general and very high and can go up dramatically so getting a speeding ticket in one of the dealer's cars is a HUGE no-no. Additionally, the sales manager has to pay for any repairs our his budget (which, in turn, directly affects his paycheck) so there is incentive for him to treat the car as well as he would one he owned. They usually drive them until they put 3,000 to 5,000 miles on them and then pick a new one. The new car manager usually drives a new car (as do the finance managers) for which the manufacturer reimburses them as the cars are sold at a discount, the sales manager will drive a nice used car (I remember one manager liking his Cadillac Fleetwood so much that he asked the dealer's buyer to find him another to drive as a demo), and the general manager (who is sometimes also the owner) will drive whatever he wants (often the nicest new car the dealership sells or an especially nice used car).
Incidentally me father (who has been in the car business for over 25 years now) swears by rental returns because they higher than average mileage for the age of the car but, since the rental companies maintain their cars so meticulously, they tend to be in better condition than the mileage would suggest.
I know that, for new cars, the warranty starts from the "in-service" date and mileage. So, if you buy a new car with 352 miles on it, the 36,000 mile warranty lasts until the odometer reads 36,352 miles. Certified pre-owned programs started up shortly after I left the car-business but I would think that they deal with the miles the car accrues while in the dealer's care in a similar fashion.
posted by VTX at 6:47 AM on October 7, 2014
The insurance rates for the dealership in general and very high and can go up dramatically so getting a speeding ticket in one of the dealer's cars is a HUGE no-no. Additionally, the sales manager has to pay for any repairs our his budget (which, in turn, directly affects his paycheck) so there is incentive for him to treat the car as well as he would one he owned. They usually drive them until they put 3,000 to 5,000 miles on them and then pick a new one. The new car manager usually drives a new car (as do the finance managers) for which the manufacturer reimburses them as the cars are sold at a discount, the sales manager will drive a nice used car (I remember one manager liking his Cadillac Fleetwood so much that he asked the dealer's buyer to find him another to drive as a demo), and the general manager (who is sometimes also the owner) will drive whatever he wants (often the nicest new car the dealership sells or an especially nice used car).
Incidentally me father (who has been in the car business for over 25 years now) swears by rental returns because they higher than average mileage for the age of the car but, since the rental companies maintain their cars so meticulously, they tend to be in better condition than the mileage would suggest.
I know that, for new cars, the warranty starts from the "in-service" date and mileage. So, if you buy a new car with 352 miles on it, the 36,000 mile warranty lasts until the odometer reads 36,352 miles. Certified pre-owned programs started up shortly after I left the car-business but I would think that they deal with the miles the car accrues while in the dealer's care in a similar fashion.
posted by VTX at 6:47 AM on October 7, 2014
This thread is closed to new comments.
I don't care how good of a deal it is, you should definitely try to talk it down from its list price. Let's say that the car is completely fine (I am not the person to tell you how to evaluate that), you still put up with a tremendous amount of bullshit to see a car that isn't in a professionally salable condition. It's dirty, it's actively being driven by someone, shit doesn't line up with what was on the listing, etc. You can and should talk that number down below list price.
They're running a business. They should have their shit more together than this and they're not going to list the car at a number they're not making a profit on. Negotiate negotiate negotiate.
posted by phunniemee at 6:50 AM on October 6, 2014 [9 favorites]