What do I do?
October 5, 2014 9:34 PM Subscribe
I found out my beloved best friend really enjoys racist jokes...
I've been friends with Laz for about 8 years. He is Irish, lives in Ireland, and is 27. I am Mexican, moved to Idaho when I was 15, and am now 24. We met in a discussion board. When we started talking my English was not great, but we were both misfits and quickly became friends.
He has been with me for the worst and the best of my life. He was my rock and the light at the end of the tunnel when things were terrible, and I've been lucky to count on his advice and support throughout my late teens and until now. We are very close and text almost daily, and I was lucky enough to meet him in person last year.
A few days ago, I commented to him that someone had successfully stopped themselves from telling me a racist joke, claiming that it wouldn't be funny to me. I considered this a victory. He then asked me if I felt bad that this person now had to censor themselves around me. I replied that of course I did not feel bad because no one ever needs to tell racist jokes, especially not to me (a POC), and that in order to consider these jokes funny, one would need to think like a racist. This was the start of a long argument, in which he argued:
*that saying racist jokes are racist is dictating they are morally wrong
*that humor is highly subjective
*that saying people who think racist jokes are funny are racist is insulting
*that I am intolerant by calling these people racist and if I don't like these jokes I should simply ignore them as humor I don't like
*that if one can't laugh at absurd stereotypes what can one laugh at
*that comedians regularly tell jokes like these (he quoted Louis CK and Dave Chappelle)
*judging people on their sense of humor is intolerant
*most people laugh at Chris Rock, Louis CK and South Park
*that *I* am a racist for insulting people who tell racist jokes (?) since I am painting all people who like racist jokes with the same brush given my past experience with racists who did like to tell these jokes
My response to this was essentially
*I have experienced racism from people who like telling these jokes before and to me it is perfectly reasonable to assume that a person who likes telling/hearing this jokes is indeed a racist, since
*one needs to think like a racist in order to find these jokes funny
*comedians walk extremely fine lines and good comedians make their intent crystal clear when engaging in racial (not racist) jokes
*argumentum ad populum is a logical fallacy
*I can't try to put myself in these people's shoes because that is despicable
*I *am* being intolerant of such jokes because I do indeed find them intolerable
To say that I am shocked is an understatement...I can't believe someone this close to me would think something like that. He's never said any racist jokes to me, and even though he does have a crass sense of humor, he doesn't engage me in that type of joke since he knows I don't care for them (ironically).
I do encounter quite a bit of casual racism in my daily life, and when I encounter something like this, I do my best to separate the person from what they are saying and respond to the jokes in a dismissive way (asking why they are funny, blinking and changing the subject, etc). If someone insists, I distance myself from them. In this particular instance, however, I feel betrayed, and it is a lot harder to do this. It feels like it taints every interaction we'd had in the past. Every person I've spoken to about this thankfully has backed me up, but there is a voice in the back of my head saying that perhaps I did overreact by jumping to label him as a racist over this, and that I should apologize. I'd previously jumped to label him a terrible label before (he said something to the effect of finding Asian women attractive and I jumped to fetishizing) and I did apologize over that, feeling I was being unfair. Now he is arguing that I am doing the same thing but with racism. I don't know what to think here and I think my hurt feelings are clouding my thoughts. I don't want to throw away this incredibly important friendship over this, but I feel he is not giving me much choice. He is unlikely to apologize for this and I don't think I should have to, either, and I've sadly lost a lot of respect for him (he claims to feel the same for me).
Was I wrong to label him in this way? How do I salvage this?
I've been friends with Laz for about 8 years. He is Irish, lives in Ireland, and is 27. I am Mexican, moved to Idaho when I was 15, and am now 24. We met in a discussion board. When we started talking my English was not great, but we were both misfits and quickly became friends.
He has been with me for the worst and the best of my life. He was my rock and the light at the end of the tunnel when things were terrible, and I've been lucky to count on his advice and support throughout my late teens and until now. We are very close and text almost daily, and I was lucky enough to meet him in person last year.
A few days ago, I commented to him that someone had successfully stopped themselves from telling me a racist joke, claiming that it wouldn't be funny to me. I considered this a victory. He then asked me if I felt bad that this person now had to censor themselves around me. I replied that of course I did not feel bad because no one ever needs to tell racist jokes, especially not to me (a POC), and that in order to consider these jokes funny, one would need to think like a racist. This was the start of a long argument, in which he argued:
*that saying racist jokes are racist is dictating they are morally wrong
*that humor is highly subjective
*that saying people who think racist jokes are funny are racist is insulting
*that I am intolerant by calling these people racist and if I don't like these jokes I should simply ignore them as humor I don't like
*that if one can't laugh at absurd stereotypes what can one laugh at
*that comedians regularly tell jokes like these (he quoted Louis CK and Dave Chappelle)
*judging people on their sense of humor is intolerant
*most people laugh at Chris Rock, Louis CK and South Park
*that *I* am a racist for insulting people who tell racist jokes (?) since I am painting all people who like racist jokes with the same brush given my past experience with racists who did like to tell these jokes
My response to this was essentially
*I have experienced racism from people who like telling these jokes before and to me it is perfectly reasonable to assume that a person who likes telling/hearing this jokes is indeed a racist, since
*one needs to think like a racist in order to find these jokes funny
*comedians walk extremely fine lines and good comedians make their intent crystal clear when engaging in racial (not racist) jokes
*argumentum ad populum is a logical fallacy
*I can't try to put myself in these people's shoes because that is despicable
*I *am* being intolerant of such jokes because I do indeed find them intolerable
To say that I am shocked is an understatement...I can't believe someone this close to me would think something like that. He's never said any racist jokes to me, and even though he does have a crass sense of humor, he doesn't engage me in that type of joke since he knows I don't care for them (ironically).
I do encounter quite a bit of casual racism in my daily life, and when I encounter something like this, I do my best to separate the person from what they are saying and respond to the jokes in a dismissive way (asking why they are funny, blinking and changing the subject, etc). If someone insists, I distance myself from them. In this particular instance, however, I feel betrayed, and it is a lot harder to do this. It feels like it taints every interaction we'd had in the past. Every person I've spoken to about this thankfully has backed me up, but there is a voice in the back of my head saying that perhaps I did overreact by jumping to label him as a racist over this, and that I should apologize. I'd previously jumped to label him a terrible label before (he said something to the effect of finding Asian women attractive and I jumped to fetishizing) and I did apologize over that, feeling I was being unfair. Now he is arguing that I am doing the same thing but with racism. I don't know what to think here and I think my hurt feelings are clouding my thoughts. I don't want to throw away this incredibly important friendship over this, but I feel he is not giving me much choice. He is unlikely to apologize for this and I don't think I should have to, either, and I've sadly lost a lot of respect for him (he claims to feel the same for me).
Was I wrong to label him in this way? How do I salvage this?
IDK, I have a long-time English pen pal and he sends me weird stuff like Republican Patriot stuff over the email, because he thinks it's American. I have to explain it to him, that I am not like that.
We have been best friends forever and I think if i told him he was being a dick he would go OY! Sorry! Because he is wicked nice and my friend.
posted by Marie Mon Dieu at 9:48 PM on October 5, 2014
We have been best friends forever and I think if i told him he was being a dick he would go OY! Sorry! Because he is wicked nice and my friend.
posted by Marie Mon Dieu at 9:48 PM on October 5, 2014
Being politically correct to an overblown extent is a popular form of social conditioning occurring right now, and it has both good and bad results.
This is a bad result. You've just engaged in a pointless argument about something really trivial and labeled your good friend in a super negative way.
Sure words matter, but so does intent.
This little bit of social engineering you just propagated is suspected of ultimately being designed to create barriers between folks that weren't there before, albeit in the guise of doing the "right" thing.
Funny thing, huh?
I'm sure your friends have backed you up on this. They are hearing the same messages you are.
Your gut tells you you've taken this too far, because you have.
Make up with your friend.
posted by jbenben at 9:53 PM on October 5, 2014 [13 favorites]
This is a bad result. You've just engaged in a pointless argument about something really trivial and labeled your good friend in a super negative way.
Sure words matter, but so does intent.
This little bit of social engineering you just propagated is suspected of ultimately being designed to create barriers between folks that weren't there before, albeit in the guise of doing the "right" thing.
Funny thing, huh?
I'm sure your friends have backed you up on this. They are hearing the same messages you are.
Your gut tells you you've taken this too far, because you have.
Make up with your friend.
posted by jbenben at 9:53 PM on October 5, 2014 [13 favorites]
Well, he does kind of have a point that laughing at a joke doesn't necessarily make him racist. It's true: just because you enjoy a joke that's making fun of a group doesn't mean you're actually prejudiced against that group. For instance, I don't think anyone who laughs at a joke about Jews, or Americans, or men, is necessarily going to be prejudiced against me as a Jew or an American or a man. Maybe they're just open to laughing at anything regardless of how offensive it is. While I might have a right to be offended, that doesn't mean it's going to be accurate of me to label the laughing person as a bigot.
I notice you took the trouble to break down your friend's arguments into 9 different points, and write them all out (along with your 6 points). That suggests that he feels pretty strongly about this and is unlikely to change his mind — and it also suggests that you're obsessing over this. I mean, I like to debate with people, but I can't remember ever sitting down to write up a 9-point summary of a friend's arguments for a position. This seems to be spiraling out of control and threatening your friendship. I can't tell you how to feel about racist jokes. But I can tell you that I sure wouldn't throw away a valuable friendship over differing opinions about how OK it is to tell or laugh at certain kinds of jokes about my historically oppressed minority ethnic group.
posted by John Cohen at 9:53 PM on October 5, 2014 [2 favorites]
I notice you took the trouble to break down your friend's arguments into 9 different points, and write them all out (along with your 6 points). That suggests that he feels pretty strongly about this and is unlikely to change his mind — and it also suggests that you're obsessing over this. I mean, I like to debate with people, but I can't remember ever sitting down to write up a 9-point summary of a friend's arguments for a position. This seems to be spiraling out of control and threatening your friendship. I can't tell you how to feel about racist jokes. But I can tell you that I sure wouldn't throw away a valuable friendship over differing opinions about how OK it is to tell or laugh at certain kinds of jokes about my historically oppressed minority ethnic group.
posted by John Cohen at 9:53 PM on October 5, 2014 [2 favorites]
Best answer: Hm. I'm surprised at some the responses so far.
Your friend sounds like he speaks from the position of a privileged white person who doesn't understand the difference between a racist joke (no explanation necessary) and jokes about race (Louis CK, Chris Rock et al). The former is crass, insulting and hurtful, the latter shines a light on the insidiousness of racism. If you do end up talking about the subject again, I would make the difference clear but in general I'd steer clear of the topic.
That said, my respect of a person, no matter how great they are, would diminish if they were incapable of making this distinction. Is it okay to turn up to a costume party in blackface? Most people who do say stuff like 'it's just a joke' or 'I didn't mean anything by it' or 'it's your fault if you choose to be offended' - I mean, bitch please.
Anyway, he may not be racist, just ignorant, and with an unrefined sense of humour. Rather than jump to call him a racist, I'd be mindful of this and be gentle if/when trying to change his thinking if he means that much to you (and fair enough if he's been a great friend). Maybe he doesn't understand the cultural implications of being into Asian women (as in, there's no shame in having a type, but there's so much fetishising of Asian women out there that one should tread carefully when expressing stuff like that lest one comes across as creepy or gross). Who knows. But I do think we all can be quick to outrage, and there are ways to get your point across without shouting someone down.
posted by scuza at 9:56 PM on October 5, 2014 [48 favorites]
Your friend sounds like he speaks from the position of a privileged white person who doesn't understand the difference between a racist joke (no explanation necessary) and jokes about race (Louis CK, Chris Rock et al). The former is crass, insulting and hurtful, the latter shines a light on the insidiousness of racism. If you do end up talking about the subject again, I would make the difference clear but in general I'd steer clear of the topic.
That said, my respect of a person, no matter how great they are, would diminish if they were incapable of making this distinction. Is it okay to turn up to a costume party in blackface? Most people who do say stuff like 'it's just a joke' or 'I didn't mean anything by it' or 'it's your fault if you choose to be offended' - I mean, bitch please.
Anyway, he may not be racist, just ignorant, and with an unrefined sense of humour. Rather than jump to call him a racist, I'd be mindful of this and be gentle if/when trying to change his thinking if he means that much to you (and fair enough if he's been a great friend). Maybe he doesn't understand the cultural implications of being into Asian women (as in, there's no shame in having a type, but there's so much fetishising of Asian women out there that one should tread carefully when expressing stuff like that lest one comes across as creepy or gross). Who knows. But I do think we all can be quick to outrage, and there are ways to get your point across without shouting someone down.
posted by scuza at 9:56 PM on October 5, 2014 [48 favorites]
Everyone's got a flaw. I have rabid tea-partier friends and makes me have a little less respect for them. I'm sure they feel the same way about me being a 'libtard'. But they can still be friends because they have a lot of good qualities. The important thing is I still do have respect for them overall.
I know how they feel; they know how I feel. We don't have big arguments about these things. The most that ever happens is "I know you don't feel the same way, but I think <thing>." And the other person says, well, you're right. I think <other thing>. And we drop it.
I think it's ok to be the "good influence" on your friends without being preachy. By all means, call out individual cases. If you friend says something racist, don't stand for it. But I'd recommend doing it on a case by case basis, not treating him as a racist, end of story. Drop him as a friend if he can't stop being preachy to you about it or continues doing it in front of you just to be an ass. You might find that someday he grows to see your point. And maybe you'll see something in his.
posted by ctmf at 10:08 PM on October 5, 2014 [4 favorites]
I know how they feel; they know how I feel. We don't have big arguments about these things. The most that ever happens is "I know you don't feel the same way, but I think <thing>." And the other person says, well, you're right. I think <other thing>. And we drop it.
I think it's ok to be the "good influence" on your friends without being preachy. By all means, call out individual cases. If you friend says something racist, don't stand for it. But I'd recommend doing it on a case by case basis, not treating him as a racist, end of story. Drop him as a friend if he can't stop being preachy to you about it or continues doing it in front of you just to be an ass. You might find that someday he grows to see your point. And maybe you'll see something in his.
posted by ctmf at 10:08 PM on October 5, 2014 [4 favorites]
Nothing in your friend's argument implies that he "really enjoys" racist jokes. He doesn't think they're the worst thing in the world, that's all. I mean ultimately you're having a disagreement about comedy, not racism. It's not as if he's saying "I love racist jokes because they're true" or "I love racist jokes because they fuel my hatred of X race."
Also, it might be helpful to consider his perspective-- he lives in a country that is 95% white. His understanding and experience of race/racism is completely different from yours. He's arguing about an intellectual concept which he's mostly learned about from Chris Rock and South Park. You're arguing about an emotional issue that is close to your heart. No surprise that you can't find common ground.
posted by acidic at 10:12 PM on October 5, 2014 [13 favorites]
Also, it might be helpful to consider his perspective-- he lives in a country that is 95% white. His understanding and experience of race/racism is completely different from yours. He's arguing about an intellectual concept which he's mostly learned about from Chris Rock and South Park. You're arguing about an emotional issue that is close to your heart. No surprise that you can't find common ground.
posted by acidic at 10:12 PM on October 5, 2014 [13 favorites]
Was I wrong to label him in this way?
Sounds like it, as you don't mention him doing anthing racist, but do mention that he's been a great friend.
A person's sense of humor can be pretty warped. I'll crack jokes about just about anything, but only with people who have a similar sense of humor. But that had little to do with my actual thoughts on serious subjects.
Best to think of humor as an alternative universe, where strange shit happens and thats ok.
How do I salvage this?
Start by apologizing for calling him names.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 10:16 PM on October 5, 2014 [4 favorites]
Sounds like it, as you don't mention him doing anthing racist, but do mention that he's been a great friend.
A person's sense of humor can be pretty warped. I'll crack jokes about just about anything, but only with people who have a similar sense of humor. But that had little to do with my actual thoughts on serious subjects.
Best to think of humor as an alternative universe, where strange shit happens and thats ok.
How do I salvage this?
Start by apologizing for calling him names.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 10:16 PM on October 5, 2014 [4 favorites]
"*that *I* am a racist for insulting people who tell racist jokes (?) since I am painting all people who like racist jokes with the same brush given my past experience with racists who did like to tell these jokes"
This in particular tells me it's gone too far. Agree to disagree, hug, have a coffee.
posted by parki at 10:16 PM on October 5, 2014 [1 favorite]
This in particular tells me it's gone too far. Agree to disagree, hug, have a coffee.
posted by parki at 10:16 PM on October 5, 2014 [1 favorite]
the standard for ireland is different from what it is here, and it sounds like you judged him by the american standard.
posted by bruce at 10:22 PM on October 5, 2014 [4 favorites]
posted by bruce at 10:22 PM on October 5, 2014 [4 favorites]
Ha! Perfect example above....
".....I mean, bitch please."
Using the term "bitch" in a cheeky, sardonic, or snarky way was really in style 10 to 15 years ago. I accidentally used the term in a cheeky way aimed at an inanimate object (and not a person!) just a few days ago in front of a thoughtful young woman I know. I spent days afterwards agonizing over how stupid and embarrassing that choice of word was. It wasn't funny or cute for ME to use in the context of 2014, it was crass and insulting to women everywhere.
Or so I have come to understand as I've grown into middle age. I used to banter that word around a lot with other women when I was younger. At the time it was "cool." What can say?
Oddly, I wouldn't probably notice if someone else used the term today, nor feel degraded personally in any way as a woman if they did. I'm just aware that the term subtly promotes the degradation of women, and I personally have choosen to drop it from my vocabulary.
I wouldn't have thought twice about that term here in this thread, except its use here so perfectly illustrates what I was getting at when I wrote that intent is a major part of evaluating this issue.
That I freely used the word "bitch" in the past doesn't make me a bad person. If another woman called me out on the use of that word back in the day, I would have been really angry with her (this never happened, just saying.)
I came to my conclusions about what is appropriate for me to say or not say on my own.
----
Does that help clarify anything for you, OP? In support of your position, another commenter committed a similar transgression to the one you accused your friend of, except the offense concerned gender instead of race.
I don't think anyone meant to harm anyone, tho!
Just saying that every day speech is littered with these types of loaded ideas and terms. It takes time for consciousness, and therefore language, to evolve.
Go easy on yourself and others. Most people aren't aiming for malice when it comes to stuff like this.
Worry more about what you say, less about what comes out of the other guy's mouth.
Hope this helped.
posted by jbenben at 10:28 PM on October 5, 2014 [7 favorites]
".....I mean, bitch please."
Using the term "bitch" in a cheeky, sardonic, or snarky way was really in style 10 to 15 years ago. I accidentally used the term in a cheeky way aimed at an inanimate object (and not a person!) just a few days ago in front of a thoughtful young woman I know. I spent days afterwards agonizing over how stupid and embarrassing that choice of word was. It wasn't funny or cute for ME to use in the context of 2014, it was crass and insulting to women everywhere.
Or so I have come to understand as I've grown into middle age. I used to banter that word around a lot with other women when I was younger. At the time it was "cool." What can say?
Oddly, I wouldn't probably notice if someone else used the term today, nor feel degraded personally in any way as a woman if they did. I'm just aware that the term subtly promotes the degradation of women, and I personally have choosen to drop it from my vocabulary.
I wouldn't have thought twice about that term here in this thread, except its use here so perfectly illustrates what I was getting at when I wrote that intent is a major part of evaluating this issue.
That I freely used the word "bitch" in the past doesn't make me a bad person. If another woman called me out on the use of that word back in the day, I would have been really angry with her (this never happened, just saying.)
I came to my conclusions about what is appropriate for me to say or not say on my own.
----
Does that help clarify anything for you, OP? In support of your position, another commenter committed a similar transgression to the one you accused your friend of, except the offense concerned gender instead of race.
I don't think anyone meant to harm anyone, tho!
Just saying that every day speech is littered with these types of loaded ideas and terms. It takes time for consciousness, and therefore language, to evolve.
Go easy on yourself and others. Most people aren't aiming for malice when it comes to stuff like this.
Worry more about what you say, less about what comes out of the other guy's mouth.
Hope this helped.
posted by jbenben at 10:28 PM on October 5, 2014 [7 favorites]
Best answer: Telling racist jokes is racist. But my experience with calling people out is that it usually goes much better to label the behaviour and not the person. Your friend might have got really defensive about this conversation because he felt that you were calling him a racist and I think that some white people (I am white) think that racist = neo-nazi. They don't realise that not all racism is so overt.
posted by kinddieserzeit at 10:29 PM on October 5, 2014 [7 favorites]
posted by kinddieserzeit at 10:29 PM on October 5, 2014 [7 favorites]
Best answer: I think he's making a wild leap if he's comparing jokes about dumb Polocks with the Chapelle bit about the blind Klansman who doesn't realize he is black. My guess is that, given what you've said of his argument, most of his arguments involve conflating these two extremely different types of humor. I mean, he didn't say he thought Lisa Lampanelli was funny (just to give an example of someone who makes racist jokes that I find cringe-worthy).
Could it be possible you don't disagree as much as you think you do? I'm getting this sense of the argument as:
You "but racist jokes aren't funny!" (thinking of disgusting, base jokes revolving around slurs against various minorities)
Him "you just don't appreciate that some jokes about race ARE funny!" (thinking of satirical comedy about racism and race issues)
I would tend to agree with those above that if he's a good friend, you should give him the benefit of the doubt and just leave this alone. What about saying something like "you know, I've been thinking about it and I realized that you seemed to be referring to jokes about race and racism that play off of stereotypes and cultural attitudes, whereas I was totally referring to just straight up crass and offensive jokes at the expense of minority groups, which I'm sure you would never actually be cool with. We were talking about two different things and then the argument just got out of hand. I'm sorry."
This concession makes you the bigger person, and even if it's not 100% accurate (he may actually find some things you would be offended by funny), it seems at least partially true, defuses the situation, gives him a gracious out from the conversation. If he then goes on to hotly debate with you whether garden-variety crass racist humor (the type of joke that Louis CK would never tell) is actually still funny… well, at that point I'd definitely consider telling him more seriously that the subject needs to get dropped because he's being ridiculous.
posted by treehorn+bunny at 10:47 PM on October 5, 2014 [17 favorites]
Could it be possible you don't disagree as much as you think you do? I'm getting this sense of the argument as:
You "but racist jokes aren't funny!" (thinking of disgusting, base jokes revolving around slurs against various minorities)
Him "you just don't appreciate that some jokes about race ARE funny!" (thinking of satirical comedy about racism and race issues)
I would tend to agree with those above that if he's a good friend, you should give him the benefit of the doubt and just leave this alone. What about saying something like "you know, I've been thinking about it and I realized that you seemed to be referring to jokes about race and racism that play off of stereotypes and cultural attitudes, whereas I was totally referring to just straight up crass and offensive jokes at the expense of minority groups, which I'm sure you would never actually be cool with. We were talking about two different things and then the argument just got out of hand. I'm sorry."
This concession makes you the bigger person, and even if it's not 100% accurate (he may actually find some things you would be offended by funny), it seems at least partially true, defuses the situation, gives him a gracious out from the conversation. If he then goes on to hotly debate with you whether garden-variety crass racist humor (the type of joke that Louis CK would never tell) is actually still funny… well, at that point I'd definitely consider telling him more seriously that the subject needs to get dropped because he's being ridiculous.
posted by treehorn+bunny at 10:47 PM on October 5, 2014 [17 favorites]
I second the point that he is from Ireland, where racial discrimination and prejudice has a totally different meaning than it does in the US. This is a cultural difference and it's understandable that this is one of his first times encountering this American concept which really doesn't apply in the same way there.
posted by 3491again at 10:50 PM on October 5, 2014 [5 favorites]
posted by 3491again at 10:50 PM on October 5, 2014 [5 favorites]
Humor is very cultural and regional. I enjoy dead-baby jokes because I find humor in dark, inappropriate places. I do not actually enjoy dead babies, nor am I a baby killer. I think you two need to agree to disagree on this one.
posted by storminator7 at 10:54 PM on October 5, 2014 [3 favorites]
posted by storminator7 at 10:54 PM on October 5, 2014 [3 favorites]
*I *am* being intolerant of such jokes because I do indeed find them intolerable
Well, please understand that telling a racist joke does not mean that you are a racist. I told bald jokes involving the N. word to black friends of mine and bad Jewish jokes to Jewish friends of mine. You just have to know who can take it and who can't. Just talk with your friend about it and I am sure he will understand. Who knows, he may refer in the future to you as "a friend who does not have humor".
posted by yoyo_nyc at 10:59 PM on October 5, 2014
Well, please understand that telling a racist joke does not mean that you are a racist. I told bald jokes involving the N. word to black friends of mine and bad Jewish jokes to Jewish friends of mine. You just have to know who can take it and who can't. Just talk with your friend about it and I am sure he will understand. Who knows, he may refer in the future to you as "a friend who does not have humor".
posted by yoyo_nyc at 10:59 PM on October 5, 2014
I guess you need to decide how valuable the relationship is to you and whether you are willing to look the other way and ignore the issue.
I don't think finding racists jokes funny necessarily makes you a racist; things can be funny for many reasons, and seeing something as funny in a joke doesn't necessarily reveal any character flaws. When I was a child, "dead baby" jokes were all the rage. I do think many of these jokes are funny, and I assure you that I'm not a baby hater and find nothing funny about actual dead children. So too, people may find racist jokes funny without necessarily being a racist, i.e., having racist attitudes and behaviors directed toward actual persons.
I think your particular situation is complicated by a few things:
1) it sounds like you two both enjoy a good, intense debate; sometimes people can dig their heels in just to win the argument. Perhaps the attitudes expressed by your friend aren't the full story when it comes to his views on the issue.
2) it sounds like you have mostly communicated electronically. There are features of a person that are incompletely expressed through this medium, and you may not know your friend as well as you think.
3) there is a cultural difference here between the US and Ireland. There may be more racism in Ireland or attitudes toward race may be expressed in a different way than you are used to.
In short, I don't think it necessarily follows from your conversation that your friend is a racist person, but it is, of course, up to you to decide whether you are willing to agree to disagree about this issue.
posted by girl flaneur at 11:01 PM on October 5, 2014 [1 favorite]
I don't think finding racists jokes funny necessarily makes you a racist; things can be funny for many reasons, and seeing something as funny in a joke doesn't necessarily reveal any character flaws. When I was a child, "dead baby" jokes were all the rage. I do think many of these jokes are funny, and I assure you that I'm not a baby hater and find nothing funny about actual dead children. So too, people may find racist jokes funny without necessarily being a racist, i.e., having racist attitudes and behaviors directed toward actual persons.
I think your particular situation is complicated by a few things:
1) it sounds like you two both enjoy a good, intense debate; sometimes people can dig their heels in just to win the argument. Perhaps the attitudes expressed by your friend aren't the full story when it comes to his views on the issue.
2) it sounds like you have mostly communicated electronically. There are features of a person that are incompletely expressed through this medium, and you may not know your friend as well as you think.
3) there is a cultural difference here between the US and Ireland. There may be more racism in Ireland or attitudes toward race may be expressed in a different way than you are used to.
In short, I don't think it necessarily follows from your conversation that your friend is a racist person, but it is, of course, up to you to decide whether you are willing to agree to disagree about this issue.
posted by girl flaneur at 11:01 PM on October 5, 2014 [1 favorite]
I think this has less to do with your friend's behavior, and more to do with you feeling comfortable with your own response. I think our own responses can at times bother and puzzle a lot of us. I think you need to take some of the banal judgments in this thread, by strangers about a stranger, with a pinch of salt. Besides, righteous anger won't make you sleep like a baby tonight.
Let me just say first and foremost that you and your friends don't have to be on the same page with everything. This need to have other people agree with you or see your point of view, politeness or friendship be damned, can be a form of co-dependency. As you may have noticed, we all have it to some degree and it can be triggered. In general, epic showdowns don't do much good. They should be avoided. I wish I learned this lesson earlier in life.
If you can be friendly with people you disagree with, if you can resolve conflict and stay friends, if you can dig deep and let you friend know you care for him, you will never lose, and nobody will ever have grounds to fault you for that.
Notice, by the way, that if you commit (or re-commit) yourself to this principle of tolerance, you have created a foundation. So that if this is really something you can't handle right now or bring tolerance to, you're entitled to take, or ask for, a break. There's just no need to ever argue. And you're in touch with your feelings, which is more important than your fist being in touch with his face.
This friendship sounds like a great opportunity to practice that and see if it works.
1) it sounds like you two both enjoy a good, intense debate;
And this is a great point. Speaking from experience, being really smart and feisty and articulate and deep is sometimes going to produce a negative result. There's just some downsides that come with the territory. If you're really open and outspoken with your views, people are going to disagree with you. And the point is that it's okay.
posted by phaedon at 11:19 PM on October 5, 2014 [2 favorites]
Let me just say first and foremost that you and your friends don't have to be on the same page with everything. This need to have other people agree with you or see your point of view, politeness or friendship be damned, can be a form of co-dependency. As you may have noticed, we all have it to some degree and it can be triggered. In general, epic showdowns don't do much good. They should be avoided. I wish I learned this lesson earlier in life.
If you can be friendly with people you disagree with, if you can resolve conflict and stay friends, if you can dig deep and let you friend know you care for him, you will never lose, and nobody will ever have grounds to fault you for that.
Notice, by the way, that if you commit (or re-commit) yourself to this principle of tolerance, you have created a foundation. So that if this is really something you can't handle right now or bring tolerance to, you're entitled to take, or ask for, a break. There's just no need to ever argue. And you're in touch with your feelings, which is more important than your fist being in touch with his face.
This friendship sounds like a great opportunity to practice that and see if it works.
1) it sounds like you two both enjoy a good, intense debate;
And this is a great point. Speaking from experience, being really smart and feisty and articulate and deep is sometimes going to produce a negative result. There's just some downsides that come with the territory. If you're really open and outspoken with your views, people are going to disagree with you. And the point is that it's okay.
posted by phaedon at 11:19 PM on October 5, 2014 [2 favorites]
Best answer: People can disagree, even disagree intensely, and still be friends. I think it's possible for two good people with different life experiences to have different opinions on this topic. I agree with you and I think it sounds like he's being a jerk, but I'm not Irish, and I usually value people's comfort over people's right to say whatever they want ("do you feel bad that he now has to censor himself around you").
Anyway, I wouldn't throw an eight year friendship away over an argument about racist jokes. I would wait a few days and let my temper settle down, and then I'd write and say something like "Man, I think in the heat of that argument I may have said things that weren't necessary. Obviously we have very different opinions on this subject but we also have different life experiences and good people can disagree. I love you and value your friendship. You have been the light at the end of the tunnel for me many times. Let's bury the hatchet." It doesn't have to be that you apologize for your point of view, and he doesn't have to apologize for his. You just have to both agree that your friendship and love for one another is more compelling than your need to agree on this subject.
posted by sockanalia at 11:22 PM on October 5, 2014 [4 favorites]
Anyway, I wouldn't throw an eight year friendship away over an argument about racist jokes. I would wait a few days and let my temper settle down, and then I'd write and say something like "Man, I think in the heat of that argument I may have said things that weren't necessary. Obviously we have very different opinions on this subject but we also have different life experiences and good people can disagree. I love you and value your friendship. You have been the light at the end of the tunnel for me many times. Let's bury the hatchet." It doesn't have to be that you apologize for your point of view, and he doesn't have to apologize for his. You just have to both agree that your friendship and love for one another is more compelling than your need to agree on this subject.
posted by sockanalia at 11:22 PM on October 5, 2014 [4 favorites]
p.s. On not-preview I second a lot of what phaedon said.
p.p.s. When I said "I'm not Irish" I wasn't trying to imply anything about Irish culture. I was saying that I came from the States and thus might be more inclined to understand your perspective than his.
posted by sockanalia at 11:25 PM on October 5, 2014
p.p.s. When I said "I'm not Irish" I wasn't trying to imply anything about Irish culture. I was saying that I came from the States and thus might be more inclined to understand your perspective than his.
posted by sockanalia at 11:25 PM on October 5, 2014
Best answer: This is a bad result. You've just engaged in a pointless argument about something really trivial and labeled your good friend in a super negative way.
Well, please understand that telling a racist joke does not mean that you are a racist.
I'm also surprised by many of the responses on here. Telling racist jokes is racist, and laughing at them is racist, also. It's pretty easy to sweep everything under the rug in the name of humor. "Political correctness" is a term invented by people who don't want to take the time to be thoughtful about their own actions.
People will often respond strongly to the suggestion that something that they find funny is actually racist, because humor sometimes feels like a knee-jerk, automatic reaction, and to be told that "your automatic reaction was racist" feels like a direct value judgment on something that a) they had no control over, and b) seems to be a deep part of them, which would seemingly mean that a deep part of them is racist.
This doesn't change whether or not racist jokes are racist. Personally, I agree with you. So if you want to stay friends, you need to stay friends with him despite some of his flaws, not by denying them and pretending that they don't exist.
The last thing is - it sounds like you met online when you were 16 and 19, respectively. One of the lessons I learned (and am still learning continually) is that, as people change, people veer apart. I've drifted apart from friends who I thought I would know from the rest of my life; we slowly changed, and became different people. It's a painful, inevitable part of life. You may be starting to undergo this process with your friend.
posted by suedehead at 11:31 PM on October 5, 2014 [44 favorites]
Well, please understand that telling a racist joke does not mean that you are a racist.
I'm also surprised by many of the responses on here. Telling racist jokes is racist, and laughing at them is racist, also. It's pretty easy to sweep everything under the rug in the name of humor. "Political correctness" is a term invented by people who don't want to take the time to be thoughtful about their own actions.
People will often respond strongly to the suggestion that something that they find funny is actually racist, because humor sometimes feels like a knee-jerk, automatic reaction, and to be told that "your automatic reaction was racist" feels like a direct value judgment on something that a) they had no control over, and b) seems to be a deep part of them, which would seemingly mean that a deep part of them is racist.
This doesn't change whether or not racist jokes are racist. Personally, I agree with you. So if you want to stay friends, you need to stay friends with him despite some of his flaws, not by denying them and pretending that they don't exist.
The last thing is - it sounds like you met online when you were 16 and 19, respectively. One of the lessons I learned (and am still learning continually) is that, as people change, people veer apart. I've drifted apart from friends who I thought I would know from the rest of my life; we slowly changed, and became different people. It's a painful, inevitable part of life. You may be starting to undergo this process with your friend.
posted by suedehead at 11:31 PM on October 5, 2014 [44 favorites]
Just because somebody is racist doesn't make them an intentionally bad person, it just meanst they have comfortable, probably largely unexamined beliefs that also happen to reinforce wildly damaging systems of social oppression. Hey, I'm not being sarcastic here, I think that's actually true. Most people who laugh at racist jokes haven't made the connection between "stereotypes are funny" and "stereotypes are funny because they play into my automatic assumptions and reinforce power structures".
So that's not to say that your friend is a bad person.
On the other hand, just because he's not a bad person doesn't meant you want to be friends with someone who tells racist jokes and doesn't understand the difference between calling out racism and actually telling racist jokes.
Only you know where your comfort line is. Your friend is not (probably) intentionally a bad person, and by sticking around, you might make him reconsider some of his actions and beliefs. On the other hand, you are not obliged in any way to be close to someone who engages in humor that is detrimental to you. If you are waiting for permisison to ditch this friendship because he makes you uncomfortable, you have it. If you are waitnig for someone to say that you can still be friends with this guy, you have that too. This one's tricky, but it's ultimately up to you.
posted by WidgetAlley at 11:42 PM on October 5, 2014 [9 favorites]
So that's not to say that your friend is a bad person.
On the other hand, just because he's not a bad person doesn't meant you want to be friends with someone who tells racist jokes and doesn't understand the difference between calling out racism and actually telling racist jokes.
Only you know where your comfort line is. Your friend is not (probably) intentionally a bad person, and by sticking around, you might make him reconsider some of his actions and beliefs. On the other hand, you are not obliged in any way to be close to someone who engages in humor that is detrimental to you. If you are waiting for permisison to ditch this friendship because he makes you uncomfortable, you have it. If you are waitnig for someone to say that you can still be friends with this guy, you have that too. This one's tricky, but it's ultimately up to you.
posted by WidgetAlley at 11:42 PM on October 5, 2014 [9 favorites]
Best answer: I almost posted a similar type of dilemma on here a few weeks ago, when gamergate was just getting really vitriolically started and one of my oldest and dearest friends started to argue with me about what was going on, generally defending the gamer side and poking holes in the SJW side (not to necessarily buy into these terms, but they are readily understandable). We wound up having something of a fight about it, and we've never really had a fight. We've disagreed with each other on things, but this was getting heated. It doesn't help that I'm a bad arguer and get upset and inarticulate.
So yeah, this really bothered me and it took a while to make sense of it. In the end what helped me was thinking about it like this:
- Words are less important than actions. My friend likes to argue and pick holes in arguments, especially if they are strongly emotive arguments with not a lot of evidence behind them. However I have never known him to treat women badly. He doesn't disrespect me, he doesn't treat me badly and doesn't denigrate me or women in general.
- He and I agree on more than we disagree on, and a lot of it is very important stuff.
- I love my parents even though we disagree very much on some very fundamental issues of great importance to both of us. We have learned not to talk about these things.
- Maybe this is something that my friend and I should avoid talking about, especially since I don't think that there are significant behavioural problems.
So for your situation, do you think that your friend would actively discriminate against people of colour? Would he call POC names in person? Does his behaviour indicate that he is racist? Do you agree on more than you disagree on? And is this stuff that you can just not talk about and respect each other's different takes on humour?
I agree with other posters, humour is so incredibly subjective. I find some pretty black stuff quite funny, but there are topics that just put my back right up. Even with those topics (rape, child abuse) although they are not inherently funny, a lot depends on who tells the joke and how they are telling it. A woman might make a joke of something a police officer said to her after her rape, for example, and it might even be funny in a very bleak, black kind of way.
So maybe you can just tell your friend that you don't share his sense of humour and would rather not get onto the topic. Or just avoid it altogether. Sometimes I think it really is best not to make an issue out of everything, especially when there are more important things at stake.
posted by Athanassiel at 11:53 PM on October 5, 2014 [1 favorite]
So yeah, this really bothered me and it took a while to make sense of it. In the end what helped me was thinking about it like this:
- Words are less important than actions. My friend likes to argue and pick holes in arguments, especially if they are strongly emotive arguments with not a lot of evidence behind them. However I have never known him to treat women badly. He doesn't disrespect me, he doesn't treat me badly and doesn't denigrate me or women in general.
- He and I agree on more than we disagree on, and a lot of it is very important stuff.
- I love my parents even though we disagree very much on some very fundamental issues of great importance to both of us. We have learned not to talk about these things.
- Maybe this is something that my friend and I should avoid talking about, especially since I don't think that there are significant behavioural problems.
So for your situation, do you think that your friend would actively discriminate against people of colour? Would he call POC names in person? Does his behaviour indicate that he is racist? Do you agree on more than you disagree on? And is this stuff that you can just not talk about and respect each other's different takes on humour?
I agree with other posters, humour is so incredibly subjective. I find some pretty black stuff quite funny, but there are topics that just put my back right up. Even with those topics (rape, child abuse) although they are not inherently funny, a lot depends on who tells the joke and how they are telling it. A woman might make a joke of something a police officer said to her after her rape, for example, and it might even be funny in a very bleak, black kind of way.
So maybe you can just tell your friend that you don't share his sense of humour and would rather not get onto the topic. Or just avoid it altogether. Sometimes I think it really is best not to make an issue out of everything, especially when there are more important things at stake.
posted by Athanassiel at 11:53 PM on October 5, 2014 [1 favorite]
Humour is strange.
There is a Philosophy bites podcast about humour and morality you might find helpful to listen to together. Could help clarify discussion and make it less personal.
In the end though, if a person of colour prefers not to hear racist jokes, a friend will respect that. It may be that lots of others feel different, but you are a friend and that matters.
posted by chapps at 12:14 AM on October 6, 2014
There is a Philosophy bites podcast about humour and morality you might find helpful to listen to together. Could help clarify discussion and make it less personal.
In the end though, if a person of colour prefers not to hear racist jokes, a friend will respect that. It may be that lots of others feel different, but you are a friend and that matters.
posted by chapps at 12:14 AM on October 6, 2014
Best answer: I second the point that he is from Ireland, where racial discrimination and prejudice has a totally different meaning than it does in the US.
This is really important. I am from a different European country and people here are generally somewhat oblivious to many forms of casual racism. European countries have a very different history with regards to racism. There were no black slaves here (of course we did enslave black people in other countries, not saying this to excuse Europeans, just that it wasn't visible to the average person), there were no segregation laws, and there is less institutionalized racism than in the US. Ireland is also an overwhelmingly (over 95%) white country. All of this doesn't excuse someone not having a problem with racist jokes, but it may help explain it somewhat. It is very likely that a white Irish person has absolutely no clue about the kind of casual racism people of color in the US have to deal with. A common sentiment I hear here is something like "These Americans are so hung up on non-important things like jokes and traditional expressions, but they don't care at all about the fact that in the US black people just get shot by police for no reason and are mass-incarcerated". It's a ridiculous sentiment of course, but they read about really terrible racist problems in the US in the local newspaper, and they don't get why there is so much focus on what they feel are innocent jokes.
Again, I'm not saying this to excuse this and I totally get your problem. In fact, I have unfollowed many of my Facebook friends over something similar (casual racism in culture is a big news issue where I live at the moment and sadly many of my Facebook friends are on the side of "this is nonsense, I'm not racist, OMG, I am being oppressed by the minority now that I will have to watch my words!"). It made me feel ill to keep reading those things all the time. But, those were not my best friends. If my best friend had this opinion, but was not otherwise racist, I would explain my opinion and make this one of those topics you don't talk about.
This video is great for making the difference between saying "you're racist!!!" and "that thing you just said was racist" (I linked to the blog post because it had some quotes that I remembered from it).
posted by blub at 12:39 AM on October 6, 2014 [9 favorites]
This is really important. I am from a different European country and people here are generally somewhat oblivious to many forms of casual racism. European countries have a very different history with regards to racism. There were no black slaves here (of course we did enslave black people in other countries, not saying this to excuse Europeans, just that it wasn't visible to the average person), there were no segregation laws, and there is less institutionalized racism than in the US. Ireland is also an overwhelmingly (over 95%) white country. All of this doesn't excuse someone not having a problem with racist jokes, but it may help explain it somewhat. It is very likely that a white Irish person has absolutely no clue about the kind of casual racism people of color in the US have to deal with. A common sentiment I hear here is something like "These Americans are so hung up on non-important things like jokes and traditional expressions, but they don't care at all about the fact that in the US black people just get shot by police for no reason and are mass-incarcerated". It's a ridiculous sentiment of course, but they read about really terrible racist problems in the US in the local newspaper, and they don't get why there is so much focus on what they feel are innocent jokes.
Again, I'm not saying this to excuse this and I totally get your problem. In fact, I have unfollowed many of my Facebook friends over something similar (casual racism in culture is a big news issue where I live at the moment and sadly many of my Facebook friends are on the side of "this is nonsense, I'm not racist, OMG, I am being oppressed by the minority now that I will have to watch my words!"). It made me feel ill to keep reading those things all the time. But, those were not my best friends. If my best friend had this opinion, but was not otherwise racist, I would explain my opinion and make this one of those topics you don't talk about.
This video is great for making the difference between saying "you're racist!!!" and "that thing you just said was racist" (I linked to the blog post because it had some quotes that I remembered from it).
posted by blub at 12:39 AM on October 6, 2014 [9 favorites]
Actually I think Irish people know exactly how it feels to be on the receiving end of racist jokes - ask him how he likes all the Paddy stereotypes. There are also plenty of really nasty sectarian jokes out there. Does he enjoy those jokes? And think they're funny cos they're so true? Would he think somebody telling him a joke like that to his face was a) a person with a highly developed sense of humour, or b) looking for a slap? My experience with Irish colleagues is that they were actually extremely attuned to this sort of thing as they have in fact lived with it. (If he's the sort of person who TELLS sectarian jokes, yeah he's just a flat out bigot)
I am really surprised that people here are telling you you've been brainwashed by PC culture and need to apologise to him. I wouldn't dump the friendship (I agree he's probably an idiot rather than a rabid racist) but you have nothing to apologise for here. Maybe try Treehorn Bunny's approach to patch things up, but there's no way I would apologise for calling out racist jokes.
posted by tinkletown at 12:59 AM on October 6, 2014 [17 favorites]
I am really surprised that people here are telling you you've been brainwashed by PC culture and need to apologise to him. I wouldn't dump the friendship (I agree he's probably an idiot rather than a rabid racist) but you have nothing to apologise for here. Maybe try Treehorn Bunny's approach to patch things up, but there's no way I would apologise for calling out racist jokes.
posted by tinkletown at 12:59 AM on October 6, 2014 [17 favorites]
His ego went into protection mode and hence this stupid fight in which he (and not you) made things worse - this speaks to his immaturity more than anything - there are ways of disagreeing with someone without making it 'all about you' and turning on the other person.
This is actually not so much about humour and its subjectivity but rather how your perception on someone can suddenly change - and how their ego protection can hurt a relationship.
If you want to salvage it, you can never mention these kinds of things ever again. But, as others have said, sometimes something happens and it just becomes the thing that means you drift away from them.
posted by heyjude at 1:19 AM on October 6, 2014 [1 favorite]
This is actually not so much about humour and its subjectivity but rather how your perception on someone can suddenly change - and how their ego protection can hurt a relationship.
If you want to salvage it, you can never mention these kinds of things ever again. But, as others have said, sometimes something happens and it just becomes the thing that means you drift away from them.
posted by heyjude at 1:19 AM on October 6, 2014 [1 favorite]
Best answer: Wow I'm quite surprised by many of the responses here. I've had a similar experience in Europe where casual racism seemed to be common, and I definitely called my friends out when they partook in it. It's never an overreaction to discuss these issues on racism with your close friend, as not only do they greatly impact and shape society, it has affected you personally. On that point alone, I don't think you need to be the only one to apologize. (Mutual apologies on how you both may have gotten too emotional and carried away might make things go smoother though)
That being said, the difficulty of this discussion lies in how one defines racism and what it means to be a racist, and cultural differences sometimes make it even harder to draw the line. In my opinion, anyone who laughs at a malicious Jewish joke at this point in history would be a racist, for example. A racist person does not necessarily have to actively hate on that race. Ignorance alone suffices to make one a racist. This rather relentless judgement is derived from considering the impact of casual racism and how that has led to certain extreme events in the past in many places of the world. In that sense, any racial joke that ignores the history of subjugation of that race, or that clearly implies superiority of one race over another, should not be tolerated. However, there are many harmless racial stereotypes that we can joke around with, such as Japanese people being comically polite, or French people carrying a baguette. As already mentioned above, some comedians make jokes to elucidate the absurdity of racism, which is different from making racist jokes. In short, racist jokes are not and should not be treated as a type of humor, like slapstick or dark humor. It is rooted historically in harmful discrimination regardless of intent, and one should be aware of that. This goes also for sexist jokes, gay slurs, etc.
However, regardless of these distinctions and whether your friend agrees or not, I think it was still quite insensitive of your friend to not consider your personal reasons for taking racial slurs seriously, and for him to call you a racist for condemning people who make racist jokes is incredibly immature. Not to mention using the age old argument of "It's a joke, don't take it so seriously!" and "humor is subjective" clearly demonstrates his ignorance on this matter. Obviously, he became defensive as he felt that he was being personally attacked, and you may want to learn to address this issue differently in the future, but had he thought careful on this matter, he would not have reacted that way.
If you want to have a constructive discussion to salvage your friendship, I suggest that you take into account his cultural bias and cut him some slack, and focus on how him dismissing your concerns as "insulting" and "intolerant" was hurtful to you. Try to paint a bigger picture of what racism means in many parts of the world, what it means to you personally, and how it's a complex issue that one should always keep on questioning, and leave it at that. Trying now to convince him that he is being ignorant is not going to help.
Honestly, I've had friends who've come around after many of these discussions and after them experiencing the world a bit more. However, I've also grown apart from many of those who couldn't see this because honestly, I think this is pretty damn straight forward. I come from an international background and the friends I grew up with all naturally share this view, and I would rather spend time with those people instead.
posted by snufkin5 at 2:17 AM on October 6, 2014 [4 favorites]
That being said, the difficulty of this discussion lies in how one defines racism and what it means to be a racist, and cultural differences sometimes make it even harder to draw the line. In my opinion, anyone who laughs at a malicious Jewish joke at this point in history would be a racist, for example. A racist person does not necessarily have to actively hate on that race. Ignorance alone suffices to make one a racist. This rather relentless judgement is derived from considering the impact of casual racism and how that has led to certain extreme events in the past in many places of the world. In that sense, any racial joke that ignores the history of subjugation of that race, or that clearly implies superiority of one race over another, should not be tolerated. However, there are many harmless racial stereotypes that we can joke around with, such as Japanese people being comically polite, or French people carrying a baguette. As already mentioned above, some comedians make jokes to elucidate the absurdity of racism, which is different from making racist jokes. In short, racist jokes are not and should not be treated as a type of humor, like slapstick or dark humor. It is rooted historically in harmful discrimination regardless of intent, and one should be aware of that. This goes also for sexist jokes, gay slurs, etc.
However, regardless of these distinctions and whether your friend agrees or not, I think it was still quite insensitive of your friend to not consider your personal reasons for taking racial slurs seriously, and for him to call you a racist for condemning people who make racist jokes is incredibly immature. Not to mention using the age old argument of "It's a joke, don't take it so seriously!" and "humor is subjective" clearly demonstrates his ignorance on this matter. Obviously, he became defensive as he felt that he was being personally attacked, and you may want to learn to address this issue differently in the future, but had he thought careful on this matter, he would not have reacted that way.
If you want to have a constructive discussion to salvage your friendship, I suggest that you take into account his cultural bias and cut him some slack, and focus on how him dismissing your concerns as "insulting" and "intolerant" was hurtful to you. Try to paint a bigger picture of what racism means in many parts of the world, what it means to you personally, and how it's a complex issue that one should always keep on questioning, and leave it at that. Trying now to convince him that he is being ignorant is not going to help.
Honestly, I've had friends who've come around after many of these discussions and after them experiencing the world a bit more. However, I've also grown apart from many of those who couldn't see this because honestly, I think this is pretty damn straight forward. I come from an international background and the friends I grew up with all naturally share this view, and I would rather spend time with those people instead.
posted by snufkin5 at 2:17 AM on October 6, 2014 [4 favorites]
Best answer: *one needs to think like a racist in order to find these jokes funny
This is true. And the problem here, is that battle lines have been drawn to the benefit of people who believe those sorts of things and think that way that you're either a full on GI-joe-villain exaggerated caricature of a racist, or you're not a racist and you're like, luke skywalker. There's this concept that it's completely black and white, saturday morning cartoon Good Vs Evil which was created entirely by the people who want to keep telling these jokes.
Because yea, they aren't neonazis. Of course not. And the thing is, you weren't saying that. But to a lot of people you're either a TurboRacist, or you're not a racist.
When in reality, there's a lot of people who partake in casual racism and think on those terms who crack up at these jokes who obviously aren't the kind of people who would sell their house because a brown person moved in nextdoor. And by the aforementioned grading system, that makes them Not A Racist.
The problem is that this is how racism survives. There are comparatively very few like, white hood wearing full on racists anymore. But there's a fuckton of people who hold a few racist beliefs, and think in several racist ways which allow them to laugh at these jokes. And there's obviously some cognitive dissonance there.
This line specifically speaks directly of that brand of thinking:
*that saying people who think racist jokes are funny are racist is insulting
This is like straight out of the playbook of selling the idea that the Only True Racism is of the white hood, lynching variety. He doesn't want to be called a racist because a racist, on his scale, is an immediate jump from 0 to 100 on the meter. It's not racist until it's past anything he'd ever say, but it's not just that. It's that everything except the very most terrible things are no longer racist because duh.
The chris rock defense, in addition to the "if you can't laugh at this then you're dead inside" line are both classic default cut-and-paste defenses for this sort of thing.
I'd previously jumped to label him a terrible label before (he said something to the effect of finding Asian women attractive and I jumped to fetishizing) and I did apologize over that, feeling I was being unfair. Now he is arguing that I am doing the same thing but with racism.
This is also a really shitty equivocation and "gotcha". I don't even really have much to say there, except that it's a weak attempt and it's dirty pool.
The whole thing, taken as a package, reminds me of the arguments i've had with people who were defending some of the most offensive racist jokes i've seen online. Like, 4chan troll types.
I don't really know what else to add here except that no, you are not wrong, and i'm really disappointed with the kind of responses you're getting. I've argued with a lot of people like this guy, and i bet he was maybe one corner-turn away from calling you a tumblr social justice warrior or something. I've also had some surprisingly close internet friends of years i drifted away from as i grew, and realized that either they weren't or were growing in a totally different direction. With the best ones, we just slowly drifted apart as we got older. With some of them, it was more that i realized that they were stuck in a rut of this kind of internet in-group thinking and were always going to defend this sort of thing.
I mean you can discuss it with him more, of course, but don't be surprised if he wont budge and just thinks you're trying to paint him with some foul brush because of the points above. This isn't just an ego defense thing, it's performance of in-group behavior that i see on places like reddit a lot.
I can also say that through my late adolescence and into adulthood(and we're the same age, so i'm assuming i've known a lot of the people i'm talking about through about the same periods of my life as you have with this guy) i've drifted away from more than a couple people online and off as i realized this is the kind of thing they really believed and i didn't really want to hang out with people who were going to not only spout but defend this kind of stuff.
Another point here, seeing as how he's making these sorts of arguments... is that he might be completely dismissive of you explaining to him why this stuff is wrong because you're a woman. All of my friends who have had to man the battlestations on trying to explain to a guy why this kind of thing was wrong while being female seem to have had a much harder fight at being taken seriously and not just like, being histrionic or something. The way he framed it is pretty shitty in and of itself and i've fought that battle as i said, but the level of dismissiveness there and the reference to the fetishization thing make me wonder if there's not an element of "ugh is she on about this dumb feminazi bullshit again?" to the flippant-to-stonewall response here.
So yea, in conclusion, i don't know if there is a way to salvage this. I also don't know if i'd be very motivated to at all. I've definitely dumped people i've known for this long over battening down the hatches on their bunker over something like this and really meaning it.
posted by emptythought at 3:08 AM on October 6, 2014 [18 favorites]
This is true. And the problem here, is that battle lines have been drawn to the benefit of people who believe those sorts of things and think that way that you're either a full on GI-joe-villain exaggerated caricature of a racist, or you're not a racist and you're like, luke skywalker. There's this concept that it's completely black and white, saturday morning cartoon Good Vs Evil which was created entirely by the people who want to keep telling these jokes.
Because yea, they aren't neonazis. Of course not. And the thing is, you weren't saying that. But to a lot of people you're either a TurboRacist, or you're not a racist.
When in reality, there's a lot of people who partake in casual racism and think on those terms who crack up at these jokes who obviously aren't the kind of people who would sell their house because a brown person moved in nextdoor. And by the aforementioned grading system, that makes them Not A Racist.
The problem is that this is how racism survives. There are comparatively very few like, white hood wearing full on racists anymore. But there's a fuckton of people who hold a few racist beliefs, and think in several racist ways which allow them to laugh at these jokes. And there's obviously some cognitive dissonance there.
This line specifically speaks directly of that brand of thinking:
*that saying people who think racist jokes are funny are racist is insulting
This is like straight out of the playbook of selling the idea that the Only True Racism is of the white hood, lynching variety. He doesn't want to be called a racist because a racist, on his scale, is an immediate jump from 0 to 100 on the meter. It's not racist until it's past anything he'd ever say, but it's not just that. It's that everything except the very most terrible things are no longer racist because duh.
The chris rock defense, in addition to the "if you can't laugh at this then you're dead inside" line are both classic default cut-and-paste defenses for this sort of thing.
I'd previously jumped to label him a terrible label before (he said something to the effect of finding Asian women attractive and I jumped to fetishizing) and I did apologize over that, feeling I was being unfair. Now he is arguing that I am doing the same thing but with racism.
This is also a really shitty equivocation and "gotcha". I don't even really have much to say there, except that it's a weak attempt and it's dirty pool.
The whole thing, taken as a package, reminds me of the arguments i've had with people who were defending some of the most offensive racist jokes i've seen online. Like, 4chan troll types.
I don't really know what else to add here except that no, you are not wrong, and i'm really disappointed with the kind of responses you're getting. I've argued with a lot of people like this guy, and i bet he was maybe one corner-turn away from calling you a tumblr social justice warrior or something. I've also had some surprisingly close internet friends of years i drifted away from as i grew, and realized that either they weren't or were growing in a totally different direction. With the best ones, we just slowly drifted apart as we got older. With some of them, it was more that i realized that they were stuck in a rut of this kind of internet in-group thinking and were always going to defend this sort of thing.
I mean you can discuss it with him more, of course, but don't be surprised if he wont budge and just thinks you're trying to paint him with some foul brush because of the points above. This isn't just an ego defense thing, it's performance of in-group behavior that i see on places like reddit a lot.
I can also say that through my late adolescence and into adulthood(and we're the same age, so i'm assuming i've known a lot of the people i'm talking about through about the same periods of my life as you have with this guy) i've drifted away from more than a couple people online and off as i realized this is the kind of thing they really believed and i didn't really want to hang out with people who were going to not only spout but defend this kind of stuff.
Another point here, seeing as how he's making these sorts of arguments... is that he might be completely dismissive of you explaining to him why this stuff is wrong because you're a woman. All of my friends who have had to man the battlestations on trying to explain to a guy why this kind of thing was wrong while being female seem to have had a much harder fight at being taken seriously and not just like, being histrionic or something. The way he framed it is pretty shitty in and of itself and i've fought that battle as i said, but the level of dismissiveness there and the reference to the fetishization thing make me wonder if there's not an element of "ugh is she on about this dumb feminazi bullshit again?" to the flippant-to-stonewall response here.
So yea, in conclusion, i don't know if there is a way to salvage this. I also don't know if i'd be very motivated to at all. I've definitely dumped people i've known for this long over battening down the hatches on their bunker over something like this and really meaning it.
posted by emptythought at 3:08 AM on October 6, 2014 [18 favorites]
Best answer: Ireland doesn't have any black people and thus Irish people don't know about racism is a really silly argument and also, untrue. There's nothing about racism that is so abstruse and rarified that an unsophisticated person would have trouble understanding it.
It is impossible to be a POC and not experience racist attitudes as an attack. This is because that is what they are. If someone calling themselves a good friend of yours is unwilling to hear that, honestly, I think you should be wondering how much of a friend they are. For real.
And yes, how does he like all the Paddy stereotypes, how funny does he think they are? What does he think about Ginger stereotypes (I guess if he's not a red-head he probably finds them hilarious)? And can he not see a difference between punching up and punching down in humour?
posted by glasseyes at 4:07 AM on October 6, 2014 [6 favorites]
It is impossible to be a POC and not experience racist attitudes as an attack. This is because that is what they are. If someone calling themselves a good friend of yours is unwilling to hear that, honestly, I think you should be wondering how much of a friend they are. For real.
And yes, how does he like all the Paddy stereotypes, how funny does he think they are? What does he think about Ginger stereotypes (I guess if he's not a red-head he probably finds them hilarious)? And can he not see a difference between punching up and punching down in humour?
posted by glasseyes at 4:07 AM on October 6, 2014 [6 favorites]
I second the point that he is from Ireland, where racial discrimination and prejudice has a totally different meaning than it does in the US. This is a cultural difference and it's understandable that this is one of his first times encountering this American concept which really doesn't apply in the same way there.
I don't agree with the way you've phrased this: racism is a problem here in Ireland and the fact that 95% of the population is white means that the level of casual racism from clueless people is particularly high.
With totally different demographics from the US, the stereotypes underlying the prejudices are certainly often different: for example, American 'Polack' jokes don't get much traction when people's image of Poles is of the generally hard-working, well-educated recent Polish migrants.
To the OP: one of these differences in stereotypes may be causing part of the problem here. In the US, the equation Spanish-speaking=Hispanic=person of colour generally seems to apply, while in Europe it's more likely to be Spanish-speaking=Spaniard=white southern European. I notice that you identify yourself as a POC - your Irish friend may, on an emotional level, not really understand this. So he may be thinking of these discussions as purely academic, and drastically underestimating the emotional impact they have on you. That doesn't alter the fact that he has argued himself into a corner where he is trying to defend the indefensible.
Was I wrong to label him in this way? How do I salvage this?
I don't think you were wrong to call him out on this. But I wouldn't abandon such a long friendship on this one argument alone. Keep in touch, and see what common ground you still have on other issues.
posted by Azara at 4:29 AM on October 6, 2014 [2 favorites]
I don't agree with the way you've phrased this: racism is a problem here in Ireland and the fact that 95% of the population is white means that the level of casual racism from clueless people is particularly high.
With totally different demographics from the US, the stereotypes underlying the prejudices are certainly often different: for example, American 'Polack' jokes don't get much traction when people's image of Poles is of the generally hard-working, well-educated recent Polish migrants.
To the OP: one of these differences in stereotypes may be causing part of the problem here. In the US, the equation Spanish-speaking=Hispanic=person of colour generally seems to apply, while in Europe it's more likely to be Spanish-speaking=Spaniard=white southern European. I notice that you identify yourself as a POC - your Irish friend may, on an emotional level, not really understand this. So he may be thinking of these discussions as purely academic, and drastically underestimating the emotional impact they have on you. That doesn't alter the fact that he has argued himself into a corner where he is trying to defend the indefensible.
Was I wrong to label him in this way? How do I salvage this?
I don't think you were wrong to call him out on this. But I wouldn't abandon such a long friendship on this one argument alone. Keep in touch, and see what common ground you still have on other issues.
posted by Azara at 4:29 AM on October 6, 2014 [2 favorites]
Best answer: I would just like to weigh on the idea that Ireland is a country where we joke about race differently to e.g. the US. I am Irish, I live in Ireland, and Irish people know what racism is. And, in my experience, we do not generally, culturally tell racist jokes (if only as a result of a lack of historic material). There is no need to hold an Irish person to a more lenient standard because of some imagined cultural divide.
It's true that historically very few non-Irish people lived or visited here. That's been rapidly changing, and we've had to do a lot of catching up in the last few decades. Irish people can frequently be prejudiced against Travellers, Protestants, etc. We can be culturally insensitive (mostly through understandable ignorance), but there's a difference between cultural insensitivity and telling a racist joke. If an Irish person is defending racism, call them on it. We don't need excuses.
There's nothing particularly Irish about this guy's response. He's not defending some slightly off-colour generalisation about his Protestant neighbour. He's defending the whole idea of telling racist jokes. He gave American comedians as examples.
posted by distorte at 4:33 AM on October 6, 2014 [11 favorites]
It's true that historically very few non-Irish people lived or visited here. That's been rapidly changing, and we've had to do a lot of catching up in the last few decades. Irish people can frequently be prejudiced against Travellers, Protestants, etc. We can be culturally insensitive (mostly through understandable ignorance), but there's a difference between cultural insensitivity and telling a racist joke. If an Irish person is defending racism, call them on it. We don't need excuses.
There's nothing particularly Irish about this guy's response. He's not defending some slightly off-colour generalisation about his Protestant neighbour. He's defending the whole idea of telling racist jokes. He gave American comedians as examples.
posted by distorte at 4:33 AM on October 6, 2014 [11 favorites]
a: *I have experienced racism from people who like telling these jokes before and to me it is perfectly reasonable to assume that a person who likes telling/hearing this jokes is indeed a racist, since
b: *one needs to think like a racist in order to find these jokes funny
A is flawed because B is wrong. Just because (in the most generous reading of that) only racist people have told you racist jokes, perhaps, does not mean the opposite can be extrapolated. Being able to see the humour in a constructed sentence (a joke) doesn't mean you need to agree with the content to find it funny. Do you really believe that the chicken really, really wanted to get to the other side? Do YOU also want to get to the other side? Is that why it is funny? It's absurd to me that you think people must 100% align with a jokes content philosophically to find the humour. Telling a joke about dead babies can be funny - it doesn't mean I want to put dead babies in a blender.
Here's a another perspective for you - compared to my experience/cultural background the US perspective is pretty puritan and extreme compared to the rest of the world on stuff like this. There is a very real culture of telling a joke because everyone KNOWS the content is 'wrong' or offensive in the UK Ireland - dead baby jokes, Michael Jackson/paedophile jokes, overly sexist jokes etc (listen to some Jimmy Carr, for instance), where skirting the line of too offensive is part of the humour. It's part of how we talk about and deal with stuff. It's kind of a 'nobody really thinks that' perspective that allows the content of the joke (the racism or whatever) to be mocked as well as being amused by the construct of the joke (assuming the joke is actually funny, which is not necessarily the case). A funny joke is funny unless it is a 'joke' just meant to be mean to people. Couching racism in a "HAHAHA LOOK AT THE STUPID (insert minority here)" short 'joke' is most likely what you are reacting to, but not at all what your friend is imagining as a racist joke.
A huge number of people I have known in the UK or Ireland can hear an offensive joke, find the humour in it and then wince at the content. Telling offensive jokes is a subset of humour. Skirting the line and mocking the content is *part* of the humour, and the offensive element can just as easily be part of the mocking as part of the (to you) serious undercurrent. It depends on the person. So it is NOT valid to immediately assume that the content of the joke automatically applies as a judgment on the person's values how is telling the joke.
As I thought about this, I realised that hearing a racist joke from a racist is usually mean and intended to be so. Telling a racist joke that is about absurd stereotypes is mocking those stereotypes. It is possible to tell the difference and someone telling me a racist joke when you can tell they believe it is something I find very, very uncomfortable. But some racist (and every other type of offensive) jokes are wildly inappropriate but really funny.
posted by Brockles at 5:05 AM on October 6, 2014 [2 favorites]
b: *one needs to think like a racist in order to find these jokes funny
A is flawed because B is wrong. Just because (in the most generous reading of that) only racist people have told you racist jokes, perhaps, does not mean the opposite can be extrapolated. Being able to see the humour in a constructed sentence (a joke) doesn't mean you need to agree with the content to find it funny. Do you really believe that the chicken really, really wanted to get to the other side? Do YOU also want to get to the other side? Is that why it is funny? It's absurd to me that you think people must 100% align with a jokes content philosophically to find the humour. Telling a joke about dead babies can be funny - it doesn't mean I want to put dead babies in a blender.
Here's a another perspective for you - compared to my experience/cultural background the US perspective is pretty puritan and extreme compared to the rest of the world on stuff like this. There is a very real culture of telling a joke because everyone KNOWS the content is 'wrong' or offensive in the UK Ireland - dead baby jokes, Michael Jackson/paedophile jokes, overly sexist jokes etc (listen to some Jimmy Carr, for instance), where skirting the line of too offensive is part of the humour. It's part of how we talk about and deal with stuff. It's kind of a 'nobody really thinks that' perspective that allows the content of the joke (the racism or whatever) to be mocked as well as being amused by the construct of the joke (assuming the joke is actually funny, which is not necessarily the case). A funny joke is funny unless it is a 'joke' just meant to be mean to people. Couching racism in a "HAHAHA LOOK AT THE STUPID (insert minority here)" short 'joke' is most likely what you are reacting to, but not at all what your friend is imagining as a racist joke.
A huge number of people I have known in the UK or Ireland can hear an offensive joke, find the humour in it and then wince at the content. Telling offensive jokes is a subset of humour. Skirting the line and mocking the content is *part* of the humour, and the offensive element can just as easily be part of the mocking as part of the (to you) serious undercurrent. It depends on the person. So it is NOT valid to immediately assume that the content of the joke automatically applies as a judgment on the person's values how is telling the joke.
As I thought about this, I realised that hearing a racist joke from a racist is usually mean and intended to be so. Telling a racist joke that is about absurd stereotypes is mocking those stereotypes. It is possible to tell the difference and someone telling me a racist joke when you can tell they believe it is something I find very, very uncomfortable. But some racist (and every other type of offensive) jokes are wildly inappropriate but really funny.
posted by Brockles at 5:05 AM on October 6, 2014 [2 favorites]
Mod note: Folks, please just offer your own advice about the questions asked directly to the OP rather than argue with other people's comments or generally chat or rant about the subject. This is the place for offering helpful answers, not for debating the general topic.
posted by taz (staff) at 5:18 AM on October 6, 2014
posted by taz (staff) at 5:18 AM on October 6, 2014
You overreacted.
Apologize, but explain it is a sensitive subject for you and that is why you acted the way you did. Laz understands this, which is why he self-censored with you to begin with.
Friendship is far, far more important than thought-policing.
posted by unixrat at 6:10 AM on October 6, 2014 [1 favorite]
Apologize, but explain it is a sensitive subject for you and that is why you acted the way you did. Laz understands this, which is why he self-censored with you to begin with.
Friendship is far, far more important than thought-policing.
posted by unixrat at 6:10 AM on October 6, 2014 [1 favorite]
My dad, by modern standards, is a racist. He's not out there denying voter rights or wantonly pulling a gun on POC, but he still says things like "xyz area of town went downhill once the ABCs moved in." He's nearing 70 and no amount of talking or forwarded articles will change him. I love my dad and certainly didn't want to jettison our relationship because of it. But he's never going to apologize for his feelings, and I'm not going to apologize for mine. So I just keep on being his daughter and when he says something off, I roll my eyes and he stops. I try to be doubly-observant of what I say and do in order to counter his presence in the world, kind of like a carbon-offset.
If you want to keep the friendship (and as long I think you should, based on your question), just ... continue with it and chalk this up as something you are always going to disagree on. Don't apologize for your stance. If he says something offensive (which you already said he hasn't, because he *is* sensitive to you in that way), give a knowing look or a "quit it!" via email/skype/gchat. Nobody is 100% perfect.
posted by kimberussell at 6:50 AM on October 6, 2014
If you want to keep the friendship (and as long I think you should, based on your question), just ... continue with it and chalk this up as something you are always going to disagree on. Don't apologize for your stance. If he says something offensive (which you already said he hasn't, because he *is* sensitive to you in that way), give a knowing look or a "quit it!" via email/skype/gchat. Nobody is 100% perfect.
posted by kimberussell at 6:50 AM on October 6, 2014
Best answer: Firstly, you didn't overreact. You really, really, really didn't. Trust your gut. I empathize so strongly with you as I'm an American PoC living in the UK whose white friends don't understand how soul-crushing it is to deal with casual racism multiple times on a daily basis. It's not funny when it's one joke, it's not funny when it's dozens of jokes coming from clueless people who think they're being novel and subversive or what the fuck ever. Don't apologize. You called a spade a spade and I've been on the receiving end of enough "harmless" racist banter to feel confident in telling you that there is ABSOLUTELY. NOTHING. WRONG. with refusing to put up with even the faintest hint of bullshit.
As for whether or not you can salvage this, it's only been a few days. Maybe you and he will be more open to discussing the future of your friendship given a bit more time.
posted by quadrant seasons at 6:53 AM on October 6, 2014 [16 favorites]
As for whether or not you can salvage this, it's only been a few days. Maybe you and he will be more open to discussing the future of your friendship given a bit more time.
posted by quadrant seasons at 6:53 AM on October 6, 2014 [16 favorites]
Best answer: What troubles me is that your friend is treating the discussion of racist jokes as an intellectual argument, rather than as something that has actually caused you pain as a person of color. That is: he doesn't seem interested at all in the suffering caused by racism, nor by the pain and discomfort you feel in the presence of someone telling such jokes.
I think you can have a healthy appreciation for the fact that racial jokes are funny sometimes (note: I said racial, not racist -- a distinction we can talk about another day), yet also understand that they can cause great pain and discomfort and are not always or even usually appropriate. I would have liked to have seen your friend make his "intellectual" argument but also show an openness and curiosity about how you feel, especially since you are a person of color. It seems he prioritizes the 'freedom to make racist jokes' over the hurt and pain caused by said jokes. Which is a really ignorant and privileged position to take.
I totally disagree with the posters above who minimize your upset or your being offended -- They sound like racially privileged people who have had very little experience caring about racism or caring about people who experience racism. You have every right to feel the way you do and to be disappointed in your friend. This isn't about being politically correct - it's about not being an asshole and understanding that racism is a thing that actually hurts and racial jokes can amplify that pain. Your friend should care about this, but it seems like he doesn't.
With that said, I wonder if you have actually discussed racism with him before? Have you shared your experiences? If not, you may want to do more of this, so that your friend can (if he is willing) cultivate an interest in and understanding of the actual, human costs of racism. This might help both of you see that this isn't just an intellectual debate.
posted by Gray Skies at 6:56 AM on October 6, 2014 [13 favorites]
I think you can have a healthy appreciation for the fact that racial jokes are funny sometimes (note: I said racial, not racist -- a distinction we can talk about another day), yet also understand that they can cause great pain and discomfort and are not always or even usually appropriate. I would have liked to have seen your friend make his "intellectual" argument but also show an openness and curiosity about how you feel, especially since you are a person of color. It seems he prioritizes the 'freedom to make racist jokes' over the hurt and pain caused by said jokes. Which is a really ignorant and privileged position to take.
I totally disagree with the posters above who minimize your upset or your being offended -- They sound like racially privileged people who have had very little experience caring about racism or caring about people who experience racism. You have every right to feel the way you do and to be disappointed in your friend. This isn't about being politically correct - it's about not being an asshole and understanding that racism is a thing that actually hurts and racial jokes can amplify that pain. Your friend should care about this, but it seems like he doesn't.
With that said, I wonder if you have actually discussed racism with him before? Have you shared your experiences? If not, you may want to do more of this, so that your friend can (if he is willing) cultivate an interest in and understanding of the actual, human costs of racism. This might help both of you see that this isn't just an intellectual debate.
posted by Gray Skies at 6:56 AM on October 6, 2014 [13 favorites]
I'm also a little shocked at many of the comments here. This person is not acting like your friend. He doesn't seem to care about your lived experience. He's defending his right to hurt others and I honestly wouldn't want to be friends with someone like that. There are lots of people in the world.
I've had this happen before with people I knew for quite a long time and ultimately for my own sanity I had to keep my distance. What you ultimately do is up to you, but rest assured that you're in the right. With that said, it's maybe possible that you can keep your friendship with this person to some extent, but you've discovered a deep ideological difference that will probably permeate your future interactions.
posted by woodvine at 6:59 AM on October 6, 2014 [13 favorites]
I've had this happen before with people I knew for quite a long time and ultimately for my own sanity I had to keep my distance. What you ultimately do is up to you, but rest assured that you're in the right. With that said, it's maybe possible that you can keep your friendship with this person to some extent, but you've discovered a deep ideological difference that will probably permeate your future interactions.
posted by woodvine at 6:59 AM on October 6, 2014 [13 favorites]
I think it's worth drilling down into your friend's cultural heritage, and find out what he thinks of Irish jokes. Unlike Jewish jokes, which draw on a particular sort of wry humour, most Irish jokes are basically there to make fun of the Irish.
To give some context, discrimination against the Irish in the UK has a long and extremely bitter history. I don't know if it's still a thing (haven't lived there for a while) but certainly among my parents' generation it was a big deal, particularly in the major cities. It's possible your friend, as a young man living in Ireland, has never experienced this, in which case lucky for him. But it's hard to believe that he has no awareness of what it has meant in the past to be Irish on British soil, how damaging these stereotypes about Ireland can be, and how they still feed sectarian divisions in certain parts of the country.
Like other flavours of racism it's bred its fair share of off-colour jokes because the Brits tend to enjoy that kind of nasty humour. Often it's just surreal banter. Sometimes the laugh is there to highlight racism (Alf Garnett), sometimes it's intended to shock (Jimmy Carr), and sometimes it's just plain racist (Jim Davidson). There's definitely a satirical component to the first three, while the last is nothing more than English (read: white) privilege being offensive.
So it's very important to understand that not all Irish jokes are equal. Some are merely absurd while others are downright horrifying. Maybe the comedy has a part to play in dealing with these issues, but there's a subtle distinction to be made between laughing at the human condition and being a bigot. From the way you phrase his arguments, my hunch is that your friend understands this, but maybe not in a very sophisticated way. It could be that this whole area of Anglo-Irish humour informs his opinion of what a makes a racist joke funny in ways you hadn't even thought of.
I say all of this not to condone racist jokes, because I think you have every right to be offended, but simply to give you a starting point for some further discussion with your friend about both of your attitudes. One of the coolest things about having friends from different cultures and backgrounds is trying to understand where they are coming from, rather than letting your differences come between you. And there's no way in the world that he's never heard an Irish joke.
posted by Elizabeth the Thirteenth at 7:12 AM on October 6, 2014 [1 favorite]
To give some context, discrimination against the Irish in the UK has a long and extremely bitter history. I don't know if it's still a thing (haven't lived there for a while) but certainly among my parents' generation it was a big deal, particularly in the major cities. It's possible your friend, as a young man living in Ireland, has never experienced this, in which case lucky for him. But it's hard to believe that he has no awareness of what it has meant in the past to be Irish on British soil, how damaging these stereotypes about Ireland can be, and how they still feed sectarian divisions in certain parts of the country.
Like other flavours of racism it's bred its fair share of off-colour jokes because the Brits tend to enjoy that kind of nasty humour. Often it's just surreal banter. Sometimes the laugh is there to highlight racism (Alf Garnett), sometimes it's intended to shock (Jimmy Carr), and sometimes it's just plain racist (Jim Davidson). There's definitely a satirical component to the first three, while the last is nothing more than English (read: white) privilege being offensive.
So it's very important to understand that not all Irish jokes are equal. Some are merely absurd while others are downright horrifying. Maybe the comedy has a part to play in dealing with these issues, but there's a subtle distinction to be made between laughing at the human condition and being a bigot. From the way you phrase his arguments, my hunch is that your friend understands this, but maybe not in a very sophisticated way. It could be that this whole area of Anglo-Irish humour informs his opinion of what a makes a racist joke funny in ways you hadn't even thought of.
I say all of this not to condone racist jokes, because I think you have every right to be offended, but simply to give you a starting point for some further discussion with your friend about both of your attitudes. One of the coolest things about having friends from different cultures and backgrounds is trying to understand where they are coming from, rather than letting your differences come between you. And there's no way in the world that he's never heard an Irish joke.
posted by Elizabeth the Thirteenth at 7:12 AM on October 6, 2014 [1 favorite]
I should add that if someone expressed the views your friend described, they would probably be demoted from "friend' to "acquaintance/some-person-I-used-to-like-but-no-longer-feel-comfortable-around".
If this person means a lot to you, I would give another shot at explaining your feelings and seeing if he has any compassion or interest in your perspective -- but if he really doesn't, I'd just walk away from this friendship. I had to do something similar (for different reasons) with a close friend who'd really been there for me as well in the past, but their intolerance (in this case, homophobia) was something I could not personally live with. I tried to salvage the friendship, but they valued their homophobic views more than they valued me. And I wasn't willing to subject myself to their hurtful beliefs.
posted by Gray Skies at 7:36 AM on October 6, 2014 [2 favorites]
If this person means a lot to you, I would give another shot at explaining your feelings and seeing if he has any compassion or interest in your perspective -- but if he really doesn't, I'd just walk away from this friendship. I had to do something similar (for different reasons) with a close friend who'd really been there for me as well in the past, but their intolerance (in this case, homophobia) was something I could not personally live with. I tried to salvage the friendship, but they valued their homophobic views more than they valued me. And I wasn't willing to subject myself to their hurtful beliefs.
posted by Gray Skies at 7:36 AM on October 6, 2014 [2 favorites]
One does not need to be a racist in order to think a joke involving race is funny. One of the elements of humor is violating social norms, and if you push that button, a lot of people are going to react by laughing.
It's the same thing with gender jokes, jokes about the disabled, even jokes about the Holocaust. If they're funny, they're funny, and telling one or laughing at one doesn't make one a racist, sexist, or anti-Semite.
I think you both need to back off your positions a little. He should realize that this is a sensitive subject to you, and that these jokes are hurting your feelings. He should not condone these jokes when you're around, not because there is anything wrong with them per se, but because your feelings should matter more than quick laugh. And you should also not judge him (or others) so quickly for telling or laughing at a joke that you had a bad reaction to. "I'm hurt" does not need to mean "you were hurtful to me". Separate your feelings about this and the intentions of the person telling the joke.
posted by mysterious_stranger at 8:37 AM on October 6, 2014 [2 favorites]
It's the same thing with gender jokes, jokes about the disabled, even jokes about the Holocaust. If they're funny, they're funny, and telling one or laughing at one doesn't make one a racist, sexist, or anti-Semite.
I think you both need to back off your positions a little. He should realize that this is a sensitive subject to you, and that these jokes are hurting your feelings. He should not condone these jokes when you're around, not because there is anything wrong with them per se, but because your feelings should matter more than quick laugh. And you should also not judge him (or others) so quickly for telling or laughing at a joke that you had a bad reaction to. "I'm hurt" does not need to mean "you were hurtful to me". Separate your feelings about this and the intentions of the person telling the joke.
posted by mysterious_stranger at 8:37 AM on October 6, 2014 [2 favorites]
Best answer: I'm sorry this happened to you and no, you aren't overreacting, I can't believe people are saying that, because wtf metafilter.
Racism hurts even when committed by a dear friend. He is wrong.
Now the meat of your question is; what do you do about it?
Well, one way to try to salvage things is make it personal. Presumably he cares about you as a person, would be sad if you were physically hurt, yes?
Say something like, I know we got really deep into talking about racism and you don't agree with me, but as my friend, it would mean a lot to me that you believe me when I say; this shit causes me harm. Its not one joke or slur, it's hearing them over and over again. It's like breathing bad air. One breath won't kill you but years of it makes you sick. I don't need you to hate yourself, I just need you to be on my side. I know this shit is complicated, but as your friend I'm asking you to try, just a little.
posted by emjaybee at 9:09 AM on October 6, 2014 [7 favorites]
Racism hurts even when committed by a dear friend. He is wrong.
Now the meat of your question is; what do you do about it?
Well, one way to try to salvage things is make it personal. Presumably he cares about you as a person, would be sad if you were physically hurt, yes?
Say something like, I know we got really deep into talking about racism and you don't agree with me, but as my friend, it would mean a lot to me that you believe me when I say; this shit causes me harm. Its not one joke or slur, it's hearing them over and over again. It's like breathing bad air. One breath won't kill you but years of it makes you sick. I don't need you to hate yourself, I just need you to be on my side. I know this shit is complicated, but as your friend I'm asking you to try, just a little.
posted by emjaybee at 9:09 AM on October 6, 2014 [7 favorites]
Response by poster: He does like both telling and listening to them, he just doesn't tell them to me because he lumps in these jokes with the other crass stuff he knows I don't care for.
I too thought that he might be conflating racial and racist jokes, so I asked him to find a racist joke he would find funny. He came up with one about black people in London being lazy/unemployed, and another about white people and incest/rape (to prove his point that it's not about race). I personally do find some racial (not RACIST) jokes funny, things like the aforementioned French baguette or their history of surrendering.
I would say he does find "Paddy" jokes funny; he reblogged this (not his tumblr) before.
That said, he really has not made any racist remarks at all aside from the odd crass joke when he had been drinking. While I did not call him a racist directly, it was overtly implied and I think he was very defensive of it due to the SuperRacist view that emptythought mentioned. I think I should at least apologize for implying he is his own view of a racist, but it will take some time before I think the sun and stars of him again.
Thank you all for your responses!
posted by cobain_angel at 9:12 AM on October 6, 2014 [3 favorites]
I too thought that he might be conflating racial and racist jokes, so I asked him to find a racist joke he would find funny. He came up with one about black people in London being lazy/unemployed, and another about white people and incest/rape (to prove his point that it's not about race). I personally do find some racial (not RACIST) jokes funny, things like the aforementioned French baguette or their history of surrendering.
I would say he does find "Paddy" jokes funny; he reblogged this (not his tumblr) before.
That said, he really has not made any racist remarks at all aside from the odd crass joke when he had been drinking. While I did not call him a racist directly, it was overtly implied and I think he was very defensive of it due to the SuperRacist view that emptythought mentioned. I think I should at least apologize for implying he is his own view of a racist, but it will take some time before I think the sun and stars of him again.
Thank you all for your responses!
posted by cobain_angel at 9:12 AM on October 6, 2014 [3 favorites]
If he starting trotting out racist jokes again, Miss Manners' advice on dealing with racist jokes might could be applicable to your situation.
Dear Miss Manners:
Last night, a guest in our home told a racist joke. Not wanting to make him feel awkward, I laughed weakly, then felt awful the rest of the night, even though fortunately no targets of the joke were present. I want to know what the appropriate response would be if it happens again.
I hope your advice isn't to sit stone-faced. These people have been kind to us. I thought of saying, "Yes, well tell me about your vacation ... "
Dear Gentle Reader:
You are probably under the impression that etiquette forbids ever making a guest feel awkward.
Well, close. Almost never. But you have just run into an exception. People who tell racist jokes should be given the opportunity to realize the impact on civilized people — and, if possible, to redeem themselves by saying that they themselves (not their best friends) belong to the racial group that was the target of the joke.
Stony face is, in fact, the basic correct response. There is a less-harsh version, however, for relatives and others with whom you may have reason to continue dealing. That is, to look puzzled:
"I don't get it. Oh, it's supposed to show that they're stupid? Well, I know lots of stupid people, but it seems to me that they're from every sort of background. Smart people, too, for that matter," and so on. You will soon reach a point where the joke teller cannot stand it any longer and will be the one to break in with, "Yes, well tell me about your vacation."
Another variation:
(1) Put on a bewildered expression
(2) Act as if you don’t understand the joke
(3) Ask your friend to explain his joke to you.
He will not be able to explain why the joke is funny without evoking a racist stereotype. You can then question the veracity of this stereotype, thus pointing out the racism of the joke, without being confrontational and without humiliating him. Racist jokes rely on an unspoken, shared knowledge of racist stereotypes. Without the stereotypes, there is no humor.
You might be able to re-purpose this to your needs.
posted by magstheaxe at 10:24 AM on October 6, 2014 [5 favorites]
Dear Miss Manners:
Last night, a guest in our home told a racist joke. Not wanting to make him feel awkward, I laughed weakly, then felt awful the rest of the night, even though fortunately no targets of the joke were present. I want to know what the appropriate response would be if it happens again.
I hope your advice isn't to sit stone-faced. These people have been kind to us. I thought of saying, "Yes, well tell me about your vacation ... "
Dear Gentle Reader:
You are probably under the impression that etiquette forbids ever making a guest feel awkward.
Well, close. Almost never. But you have just run into an exception. People who tell racist jokes should be given the opportunity to realize the impact on civilized people — and, if possible, to redeem themselves by saying that they themselves (not their best friends) belong to the racial group that was the target of the joke.
Stony face is, in fact, the basic correct response. There is a less-harsh version, however, for relatives and others with whom you may have reason to continue dealing. That is, to look puzzled:
"I don't get it. Oh, it's supposed to show that they're stupid? Well, I know lots of stupid people, but it seems to me that they're from every sort of background. Smart people, too, for that matter," and so on. You will soon reach a point where the joke teller cannot stand it any longer and will be the one to break in with, "Yes, well tell me about your vacation."
Another variation:
(1) Put on a bewildered expression
(2) Act as if you don’t understand the joke
(3) Ask your friend to explain his joke to you.
He will not be able to explain why the joke is funny without evoking a racist stereotype. You can then question the veracity of this stereotype, thus pointing out the racism of the joke, without being confrontational and without humiliating him. Racist jokes rely on an unspoken, shared knowledge of racist stereotypes. Without the stereotypes, there is no humor.
You might be able to re-purpose this to your needs.
posted by magstheaxe at 10:24 AM on October 6, 2014 [5 favorites]
Best answer: Metafilter, what the fuck. No, it's not OK for the op to have to just put up with this. OP, I'm so sorry about your friend.
If you are looking for ways to make Laz see what he's doing though-- The "Paddy" joke you brought up made me wonder. It's a joke about a crass, insulting, socially inept Irishman gaining friendship and approval from a cool black guy. It's not just a racist joke, it's a meta-joke about using racist humor to defuse racial tension. I think that's a big fantasy of a lot of white guys who identify as non-racists but who are drawn to racist humor-- meaning, not the white guys who want to have their cake and who will double down into "they're really like that though so why shouldn't I be able to joke about it!" overt racism. They sense the extreme tension of race, they're too privileged and ignorant and emotionally immature to actually try to come to an understanding of how to live in a racist society; they see the way POC and other marginalized groups use humor to cope with racism and they want to be part of that, even though they don't understand it. They want to be the cool white friend who can be trusted to take part in this cathartic bonding through laugh-don't-cry humor and they are too chickenshit to really think about why they actually cannot do this without hurting people. People such as: you, his friend of eight years, who he is currently disrespecting and causing emotional pain.
If you want to try to salvage this situation and try to enlighten your friend... he namechecks Dave Chappelle, who has released a lot of material about the soul-crushing heartbreak of watching his skits be taken up as a banner by white people who wanted an excuse to engage in delicious taboo racist bullshit, to make jokes about black people while saying "look, I didn't come up with it, it's just a joke!" That hurt was so deep that Chappelle quit comedy at the height of his career and didn't come back for ten years. If Laz is in fact a Chappelle fan, you might suggest he check out some of Dave's interviews about why he quit his show in 2005. Good luck.
posted by moonlight on vermont at 11:58 AM on October 6, 2014 [21 favorites]
If you are looking for ways to make Laz see what he's doing though-- The "Paddy" joke you brought up made me wonder. It's a joke about a crass, insulting, socially inept Irishman gaining friendship and approval from a cool black guy. It's not just a racist joke, it's a meta-joke about using racist humor to defuse racial tension. I think that's a big fantasy of a lot of white guys who identify as non-racists but who are drawn to racist humor-- meaning, not the white guys who want to have their cake and who will double down into "they're really like that though so why shouldn't I be able to joke about it!" overt racism. They sense the extreme tension of race, they're too privileged and ignorant and emotionally immature to actually try to come to an understanding of how to live in a racist society; they see the way POC and other marginalized groups use humor to cope with racism and they want to be part of that, even though they don't understand it. They want to be the cool white friend who can be trusted to take part in this cathartic bonding through laugh-don't-cry humor and they are too chickenshit to really think about why they actually cannot do this without hurting people. People such as: you, his friend of eight years, who he is currently disrespecting and causing emotional pain.
If you want to try to salvage this situation and try to enlighten your friend... he namechecks Dave Chappelle, who has released a lot of material about the soul-crushing heartbreak of watching his skits be taken up as a banner by white people who wanted an excuse to engage in delicious taboo racist bullshit, to make jokes about black people while saying "look, I didn't come up with it, it's just a joke!" That hurt was so deep that Chappelle quit comedy at the height of his career and didn't come back for ten years. If Laz is in fact a Chappelle fan, you might suggest he check out some of Dave's interviews about why he quit his show in 2005. Good luck.
posted by moonlight on vermont at 11:58 AM on October 6, 2014 [21 favorites]
*that *I* am a racist for insulting people who tell racist jokes (?) since I am painting all people who like racist jokes with the same brush given my past experience with racists who did like to tell these jokes.
Except for that last point, it sounds like your friend was saying there is a lot of humor out there and cautioning you against a knee-jerk reaction
Did that last point come up after this had gone on awhile and feelings were raw?
If this friend has never said or done anything that seemed racist, as your question indicates, then it sounds like he was making a "free speech" argument and humor with a racial angle just happened to be the example.
posted by Lesser Shrew at 1:18 PM on October 6, 2014
Except for that last point, it sounds like your friend was saying there is a lot of humor out there and cautioning you against a knee-jerk reaction
Did that last point come up after this had gone on awhile and feelings were raw?
If this friend has never said or done anything that seemed racist, as your question indicates, then it sounds like he was making a "free speech" argument and humor with a racial angle just happened to be the example.
posted by Lesser Shrew at 1:18 PM on October 6, 2014
Just like to corroborate all the people who have said being Irish is a major factor in this misunderstanding. I'm Scottish although no longer live in Scotland. It was only when I moved from there and started hanging out with a) americans and b) non-white people that I realised how insanely racist I was (because I had no problems with racist jokes), without being Racist (as I saw it).
posted by stevedawg at 3:33 PM on October 6, 2014
posted by stevedawg at 3:33 PM on October 6, 2014
I'm really sorry you're going through this. Let's address your friend's assertion that racist jokes aren't harmful and that you should just ignore them.
People who laugh at "absurd sterotypes" when they're couched in racist jokes aren't laughing with the people being stereotyped, they're laughing at them. To them, the people they're laughing at are literally a joke. Not real people to be respected.
Your feelings aren't clouding your judgement. Your friend is attempting to obfuscate his racism by making false analogies and using circular logic and he's trying to gaslight you. It's classic manipulative behavior to put you on the defensive and give him all the power. I also agree with emptythought that he may be taking you less seriously because you're a woman. You should absolutely not apologize, as it will allow him to manipulate you further.
If you want to stay friends with him, you'll probably have to pretend that this side of him doesn't exist. Alternately, you could try chipping away at his resistance with small bits of education or explanation of how it hurts you but you might feel that it's futile after a while if he doesn't respond. You might have a conversation and ask him if he actually values your friendship and how he would feel if you stopped being friends over this incident. Hopefully he'll stop being an ass and realize how damaging racist jokes are in general and to you in particular.
posted by i feel possessed at 5:46 PM on October 6, 2014 [5 favorites]
For people high in prejudice, disparaging humor communicates an implicit norm that discrimination against the targeted group is tolerated in the immediate context. Prejudiced people then use this "prejudiced norm" to regulate their own behavior. Accordingly, disparaging humor functions as a "releaser" of prejudice that people otherwise would suppress.Studies show that racist and sexist jokes perpetuate racist and sexist ideologies and reinforce the idea that the racist/sexist/etc. person's beliefs are justified. Racist/etc. jokes are morally wrong because they have real world consequences and have a negative impact on marginalized groups.
Previous studies by Ford and others on sexist humor showed the same pattern. People who are sexist to begin with and enjoy sexist jokes show higher tolerance for sexist events, tend to accept rape myths, and tend to show greater willingness to discriminate against women.I frequently see white people arguing that they're not racist while still demanding the right to make racist jokes. But my question is that if white people don't agree with the foundation of the racist joke, how do they find it funny in the first place? It's a logical fallacy, pure and simple. It's not a case of "different people have different senses of humor". If someone literally never thinks, "Hey, black people sure are lazy!" then they're not going to laugh at a joke whose punchline is "Boy howdy, those lazy black people, amirite?".
People who laugh at "absurd sterotypes" when they're couched in racist jokes aren't laughing with the people being stereotyped, they're laughing at them. To them, the people they're laughing at are literally a joke. Not real people to be respected.
Your feelings aren't clouding your judgement. Your friend is attempting to obfuscate his racism by making false analogies and using circular logic and he's trying to gaslight you. It's classic manipulative behavior to put you on the defensive and give him all the power. I also agree with emptythought that he may be taking you less seriously because you're a woman. You should absolutely not apologize, as it will allow him to manipulate you further.
If you want to stay friends with him, you'll probably have to pretend that this side of him doesn't exist. Alternately, you could try chipping away at his resistance with small bits of education or explanation of how it hurts you but you might feel that it's futile after a while if he doesn't respond. You might have a conversation and ask him if he actually values your friendship and how he would feel if you stopped being friends over this incident. Hopefully he'll stop being an ass and realize how damaging racist jokes are in general and to you in particular.
posted by i feel possessed at 5:46 PM on October 6, 2014 [5 favorites]
Hmm, looking at that tumblr joke makes me think his sense of humour isn't that different from a lot of Australians'. I've had to adjust a lot since moving here, culturally it's a very white society in a different way to the US. There's growing diversity, especially in the cities, but even so the majority of non-Caucasians are Asian or Indian, with a small but growing population of Africans. Don't get me started on the near-invisibility of Aboriginal people. But still, the casual racism of many Australians just takes my breath away sometimes. I've had discussions with friends about how troubling kids' toys like the golliwog dolls are. There was an infamous incident on a variety show back in 2009 with a sketch of white people in blackface. Many Australians didn't understand why it was offensive and went into overdrive defending their sense of humour, how anyone who didn't think it was funny just didn't have one, etc etc. Very similar arguments to those your friend used.
Anyhow, I'm going somewhere with all this. I think many Australians take pride in not conforming to rules of social acceptability. A certain amount of rudeness, familiarity, disrespect of things people hold sacred, etc seems to be par for the course. There's an Australian expression "taking the piss" which is kind of mocking, but also has nuances of respect for the act of taking the piss. You don't want to be too up yourself, after all. Can't take yourself too seriously or be a snob. So that joke features the Irish guy taking the piss, and then the narrator takes the piss right back. Hence the approbation. I don't think it's a coincidence that Australia has a lot of people of Irish descent, by the way.
The situations in which you take the piss are by definition borderline and can easily backfire. They live on tension, the tensions of class and race, wealth and poverty, education and ignorance, sex and sexuality. It's often very uncomfortable.
My point is not that you should tolerate your friend's sense of humour or that you're wrong to find it offensive. But I think there is a cultural element that comes into play and it's not necessarily as straightforward as racism. There can even be an element of respect in it - telling jokes in which it might seem on the surface like the lower class/black/poor/ignorant person is the butt of the joke, but in fact it's actually kind of respectful of them. A bit like when you mock someone you're actually quite fond of; teasing rather than denigration. A bit like what moonlight on vermont said above - they don't mean it to hurt, sometimes it's meant as a solidarity thing or a way of making an uncomfortable thing easier by laughing at it, but sometimes it backfires, because that kind of humor can cross the line into offensive really easily, especially when the intent of the joke-teller isn't terribly evident. It's not the kind of humour I personally find funny either, but I've been around it long enough now that I think I'm getting to understand it a little.
Anyway, I mention all of this because if you decide you want to hang on to your friendship, that its good bits outweigh the bad bits, this might help you live with that decision a bit more easily. But you know your friend and whether this might be part of what's going on or not; please don't feel you need to put up with him if you don't want to or don't think it's worth it.
posted by Athanassiel at 9:51 PM on October 6, 2014
Anyhow, I'm going somewhere with all this. I think many Australians take pride in not conforming to rules of social acceptability. A certain amount of rudeness, familiarity, disrespect of things people hold sacred, etc seems to be par for the course. There's an Australian expression "taking the piss" which is kind of mocking, but also has nuances of respect for the act of taking the piss. You don't want to be too up yourself, after all. Can't take yourself too seriously or be a snob. So that joke features the Irish guy taking the piss, and then the narrator takes the piss right back. Hence the approbation. I don't think it's a coincidence that Australia has a lot of people of Irish descent, by the way.
The situations in which you take the piss are by definition borderline and can easily backfire. They live on tension, the tensions of class and race, wealth and poverty, education and ignorance, sex and sexuality. It's often very uncomfortable.
My point is not that you should tolerate your friend's sense of humour or that you're wrong to find it offensive. But I think there is a cultural element that comes into play and it's not necessarily as straightforward as racism. There can even be an element of respect in it - telling jokes in which it might seem on the surface like the lower class/black/poor/ignorant person is the butt of the joke, but in fact it's actually kind of respectful of them. A bit like when you mock someone you're actually quite fond of; teasing rather than denigration. A bit like what moonlight on vermont said above - they don't mean it to hurt, sometimes it's meant as a solidarity thing or a way of making an uncomfortable thing easier by laughing at it, but sometimes it backfires, because that kind of humor can cross the line into offensive really easily, especially when the intent of the joke-teller isn't terribly evident. It's not the kind of humour I personally find funny either, but I've been around it long enough now that I think I'm getting to understand it a little.
Anyway, I mention all of this because if you decide you want to hang on to your friendship, that its good bits outweigh the bad bits, this might help you live with that decision a bit more easily. But you know your friend and whether this might be part of what's going on or not; please don't feel you need to put up with him if you don't want to or don't think it's worth it.
posted by Athanassiel at 9:51 PM on October 6, 2014
« Older Resources and Research on Talking to Overwhelmed... | I've been bottling my feelings up, and it's about... Newer »
This thread is closed to new comments.
If his friendship has given you as much as you say it has over the years and he is otherwise a stand-up fellow, you might want to let this sleeping dog lie. I know AskMe generally advocates for calling out racism, standing up for yourself, speaking truth to power, clear communication. However, you will find that there are some relationships you have in life that will survive better and fine if you don't do those things.
It sounds like you have thoroughly said your piece on the matter. For all you know, he has taken everything you've said to heart (or will over the next few weeks/months/years) and just isn't ready to publicly back down from his previously strongly-held beliefs. That is the generous spin I'd give on the situation. Essentially, flag it and move on. It sounds like this relationship gives you too many good things to torpedo it over this difference of opinion.
posted by whitewall at 9:46 PM on October 5, 2014 [18 favorites]