Did I cross some kind of therapy taboo?
October 1, 2014 8:55 PM Subscribe
When I graduated college I moved to NYC alone and found myself severely depressed to the point where I could barely get out of bed. I didn't have very good insurance so I had trouble getting help. I overheard a co-worker talking about her therapist and I looked him up and contacted him. He was able to take my insurance but when I told him I found him by overhearing a co-worker, he told me he wouldn't see me anymore. I still can't figure out what I did wrong.
This happened 5 years ago, but recently I was writing an article about therapy and I started having nightmares about it again. I was quite awkward back then and had basically no support network. I come from a conservative religious background and was homeschooled until I was 15, so it's possible there is some taboo I crossed and I just am so socially clueless I still don't get it. But when I told him how I found him, he got extremely upset and told me he'd have to ask my co-worker's permission to see me. He told me that when he asked he wouldn't reveal who I was, but would say that a co-worker was seeking treatment and ask her if this was OK.
At the next appointment he told me the verdict was that she had said no. And that I'd need to find another therapist. I remember crying on the train home and calling in sick the next day and having trouble working with my co-worker from then on. I gave up on finding therapy and things spiraled downward from there and I feel pretty lucky I didn't manage to seriously harm myself. I occasionally cross paths with this now-ex-co-worker and even now I associate her with this experience even though it's not really her fault.
Looking back from a luckily secure and happy place, I still wonder what (if anything) I did wrong? Did I just end up with a bad apple therapist? Or am I just clueless about overstepping therapy boundaries? I admit that even now I have huge issues with anxiety about therapists that I think perhaps stem from this experience.
This happened 5 years ago, but recently I was writing an article about therapy and I started having nightmares about it again. I was quite awkward back then and had basically no support network. I come from a conservative religious background and was homeschooled until I was 15, so it's possible there is some taboo I crossed and I just am so socially clueless I still don't get it. But when I told him how I found him, he got extremely upset and told me he'd have to ask my co-worker's permission to see me. He told me that when he asked he wouldn't reveal who I was, but would say that a co-worker was seeking treatment and ask her if this was OK.
At the next appointment he told me the verdict was that she had said no. And that I'd need to find another therapist. I remember crying on the train home and calling in sick the next day and having trouble working with my co-worker from then on. I gave up on finding therapy and things spiraled downward from there and I feel pretty lucky I didn't manage to seriously harm myself. I occasionally cross paths with this now-ex-co-worker and even now I associate her with this experience even though it's not really her fault.
Looking back from a luckily secure and happy place, I still wonder what (if anything) I did wrong? Did I just end up with a bad apple therapist? Or am I just clueless about overstepping therapy boundaries? I admit that even now I have huge issues with anxiety about therapists that I think perhaps stem from this experience.
I can understand why the therapist wanted to maintain strict professional boundaries, and thought your coworker might be uncomfortable with you seeing the same therapist. But don't beat yourself up! It was an honest mistake - not even a mistake really, just something that might have made her uncomfortable so the therapist made a judgement call. That's what makes it hard about finding someone good - you can't just ask a friend the way you'd ask for a dentist recommendation!
Now that said, I don't think the therapist handled it the right way. He should have gently told you that it wouldn't be a good idea for you to see the same therapist as a coworker, and then recommended several other therapists for you to see.
The awful truth is that not all therapists are good. If you read enough AskMes there are a lot of people asking "Should I break up with my therapist?" or "Is what my therapist doing normal/appropriate?" One bad experience ends up deterring a lot of people which is unfortunate. There are a lot of great mental health professionals out there.
posted by radioamy at 9:04 PM on October 1, 2014 [17 favorites]
Now that said, I don't think the therapist handled it the right way. He should have gently told you that it wouldn't be a good idea for you to see the same therapist as a coworker, and then recommended several other therapists for you to see.
The awful truth is that not all therapists are good. If you read enough AskMes there are a lot of people asking "Should I break up with my therapist?" or "Is what my therapist doing normal/appropriate?" One bad experience ends up deterring a lot of people which is unfortunate. There are a lot of great mental health professionals out there.
posted by radioamy at 9:04 PM on October 1, 2014 [17 favorites]
When you overheard your co-worker, did you ask for her therapist's contact information, or did you just figure it out? That's the one point where I could see it being kind of odd and maybe worth the therapist checking in with her. I do still think the therapist needn't have gone off on you like that though, and am sorry it happened.
posted by teremala at 9:07 PM on October 1, 2014 [6 favorites]
posted by teremala at 9:07 PM on October 1, 2014 [6 favorites]
A lot of therapists do not like to treat people who know each other. Even if they make every effort to maintain impartiality and confidentiality, it can still inhibit patients from being 100% open and trusting.
Your co-worker was probably weirded out by this request since she didn't know who was asking. Suffice to say, there's probably at least one person in everyone's workplace with whom they'd rather not share a therapist!
By the way, if you ever have the urge to share this story with your ex-coworker, I would recommend that you not. Won't do anyone any good.
posted by acidic at 9:10 PM on October 1, 2014 [4 favorites]
Your co-worker was probably weirded out by this request since she didn't know who was asking. Suffice to say, there's probably at least one person in everyone's workplace with whom they'd rather not share a therapist!
By the way, if you ever have the urge to share this story with your ex-coworker, I would recommend that you not. Won't do anyone any good.
posted by acidic at 9:10 PM on October 1, 2014 [4 favorites]
First of all, your faux pas was a teeny little thing and he should have been much more gentle and helpful. You didn't know the convention that one shouldn't investigate someone else's therapy setup the way you would investigate her jeweler or her hairdresser.
Secondly… everyone commits faux pas constantly. All those grownups all around you that you feel are judging you, that make you anxious? They're all just former little kids doing the best they can. Probably that therapist squirms with embarrassment when he remembers how he mishandled this. You're in good company, we're all of us embarrassing ourselves all the time and just trying to get past it and not dwell.
posted by fingersandtoes at 9:13 PM on October 1, 2014 [42 favorites]
Secondly… everyone commits faux pas constantly. All those grownups all around you that you feel are judging you, that make you anxious? They're all just former little kids doing the best they can. Probably that therapist squirms with embarrassment when he remembers how he mishandled this. You're in good company, we're all of us embarrassing ourselves all the time and just trying to get past it and not dwell.
posted by fingersandtoes at 9:13 PM on October 1, 2014 [42 favorites]
To spell it out for you: the therapist may have thought you were stalking your co-worker or something unsavory like that. You weren't - but he didn't know any better.
When he talked to your co-worker, he probably asked something like "Someone came to me as a possible new patient, and revealed they worked with you. Are you okay with me seeing them?" Few people are going to say "sure!"
As transgressions go, this one ranks about on par with accidentally walking into the 'wrong' restroom at a truck stop. Don't lose any sleep over it.
posted by doctor tough love at 9:19 PM on October 1, 2014 [14 favorites]
When he talked to your co-worker, he probably asked something like "Someone came to me as a possible new patient, and revealed they worked with you. Are you okay with me seeing them?" Few people are going to say "sure!"
As transgressions go, this one ranks about on par with accidentally walking into the 'wrong' restroom at a truck stop. Don't lose any sleep over it.
posted by doctor tough love at 9:19 PM on October 1, 2014 [14 favorites]
I may be the lone dissenter, but I think the therapist was in the wrong. I mean, it's not like the co-worker asked you to not see the same therapist. If anything, the therapist should have felt honored that he was being given a positive recommendation, essentially (even though it was indirect and not intentional). It was still anonymous at that point, and the therapist should've said something like "oh, that's good to know. I'm glad the co-worker had a positive experience." Simple as that. I don't see how that blurs any boundaries. The fact that the therapist asked the co-worker for permission bothers me. Here's why: a) the therapist lost potential income; b) the therapist kind of broke privacy boundaries by telling the co-worker that one of her colleagues overheard her. Kind of seems a bit "high school drama"ish to me. Yes, it was anonymous, but still.
If I were working, and seeing a therapist, and the same situation occurred, I wouldn't have a problem with my (anonymous) co-worker seeing the same therapist. I'd want my co-workers to be happy and get the help they needed.
Just my two cents here.
posted by dubious_dude at 9:23 PM on October 1, 2014 [14 favorites]
If I were working, and seeing a therapist, and the same situation occurred, I wouldn't have a problem with my (anonymous) co-worker seeing the same therapist. I'd want my co-workers to be happy and get the help they needed.
Just my two cents here.
posted by dubious_dude at 9:23 PM on October 1, 2014 [14 favorites]
Eh, what's the big deal? Your co-worker was talking about her therapist IN THE WORKPLACE. I guess it could be an issue if the two of you worked closely together AND discussed work conflicts with the same counselor, but honestly I didn't know this rule extended beyond family. (Obviously I am not a therapist, so I could be missing something here.)
Regardless, it was woefully unprofessional for this guy to get "extremely upset" with you.
posted by jessca84 at 9:28 PM on October 1, 2014 [11 favorites]
Regardless, it was woefully unprofessional for this guy to get "extremely upset" with you.
posted by jessca84 at 9:28 PM on October 1, 2014 [11 favorites]
I see the same therapist as a close friend of mine. He a gave me her information, and she seemed happy to be recommended so highly, but even so, she still asked me at my first appointment whether I'd be comfortable with her seeing both of us. She was up front about the fact that the situation might be uncomfortable for both me and my friend, but she wasn't angry and she left the decision to continue therapy up to me.
I can see why a therapist might not want to see patients who know each other, but there are much more professional ways to go about that conversation than screaming.
posted by ActionPopulated at 9:45 PM on October 1, 2014 [1 favorite]
I can see why a therapist might not want to see patients who know each other, but there are much more professional ways to go about that conversation than screaming.
posted by ActionPopulated at 9:45 PM on October 1, 2014 [1 favorite]
Well, you don't know what her story is, and what your fairly innocent behavior might have looked like in that light.
The therapist should have handled it more diplomatically. I am sorry that the experience was so traumatizing for you. I doubt he meant to make you feel that way, but maybe got caught up in worrying how violated his existing patient might feel about it and anxious about having to navigate that with her. Just because someone is a therapist doesn't mean they are great at all the things.
You didn't know better, and you didn't hurt anybody.
posted by Lyn Never at 9:51 PM on October 1, 2014 [5 favorites]
The therapist should have handled it more diplomatically. I am sorry that the experience was so traumatizing for you. I doubt he meant to make you feel that way, but maybe got caught up in worrying how violated his existing patient might feel about it and anxious about having to navigate that with her. Just because someone is a therapist doesn't mean they are great at all the things.
You didn't know better, and you didn't hurt anybody.
posted by Lyn Never at 9:51 PM on October 1, 2014 [5 favorites]
This makes no sense to me. First off, my therapist wouldn't even acknowledge that they knew my friend existed, never mind that she was the one who gave me their number, never mind that we passed each other in the waiting room. If I had said I got their name from said friend, I wouldn't have gotten any sign that they were ever a patient.
I don't see that you did anything wrong, from what you have written here.
From getting help, and knowing stories from friends, there are a lot of super shitty and unprofessional therapists out there. A lot. You may have dodged a bullet with that one.
(And needing good therapy to deal with bad therapy is definitely a thing! uhg. Please don't let one turd prevent you from seeking help, the good ones are worth finding.)
posted by Dynex at 10:10 PM on October 1, 2014 [22 favorites]
I don't see that you did anything wrong, from what you have written here.
From getting help, and knowing stories from friends, there are a lot of super shitty and unprofessional therapists out there. A lot. You may have dodged a bullet with that one.
(And needing good therapy to deal with bad therapy is definitely a thing! uhg. Please don't let one turd prevent you from seeking help, the good ones are worth finding.)
posted by Dynex at 10:10 PM on October 1, 2014 [22 favorites]
I once shared a therapist with my classmate (who hated my guts, but for other reasons). Granted, the guy was one of the few therapists in the city, so it's not like we had a lot of options. But it was never really a problem. We both knew we saw the same guy and that was that.
I can see why they'd want to check in, but they didn't need to get upset at you - it's not necessarily intuitive. I'm sorry you had to go through that.
posted by divabat at 10:15 PM on October 1, 2014 [1 favorite]
I can see why they'd want to check in, but they didn't need to get upset at you - it's not necessarily intuitive. I'm sorry you had to go through that.
posted by divabat at 10:15 PM on October 1, 2014 [1 favorite]
" I doubt he meant to make you feel that way, but maybe got caught up in worrying how violated his existing patient might feel...."
I'm not picking on Lyn Never, but yeah - NOPE.
The way he professionally keeps the bad feelings to a minimum was by keeping his professional dilemmas to himself, not by involving other patients.
He broke confidentiality. He basically gossiped.
He breach your confidentiality and hers. He put her (your coworker) in the position of deciding the fate of your treatment!!
All he had to do was refer you to another colleague.
The rest of what he did was shit stirring. And I think it was pretty mean.
He had a professional responsibility to keep you treatment and hers separate and confidential.
Therapists refer clients all of the time. It's part of their job.
No way he gets the benefit of the doubt.
posted by jbenben at 10:15 PM on October 1, 2014 [45 favorites]
I'm not picking on Lyn Never, but yeah - NOPE.
The way he professionally keeps the bad feelings to a minimum was by keeping his professional dilemmas to himself, not by involving other patients.
He broke confidentiality. He basically gossiped.
He breach your confidentiality and hers. He put her (your coworker) in the position of deciding the fate of your treatment!!
All he had to do was refer you to another colleague.
The rest of what he did was shit stirring. And I think it was pretty mean.
He had a professional responsibility to keep you treatment and hers separate and confidential.
Therapists refer clients all of the time. It's part of their job.
No way he gets the benefit of the doubt.
posted by jbenben at 10:15 PM on October 1, 2014 [45 favorites]
All I'm thinking of now is how this therapist basically gave in to what could have been social engineering.
You walk in off the street. You say you heard about their practice by overhearing a co-working talk about them.
Now the right thing for him to do would have been to be stone faced and not acknowledged any therapeutic relationship with the co-worker because to say anything is just wrong.
But then he goes a step further and puts you both in a very awkward position by asking the co-worker if it was okay...AND THEN TELLS YOU THEY SAID NO. Now he may not have identified you to them, but you knew them...and how is he to know how you would take it (or that the co-worker couldn't figure out who was seeking treatment).
It's fine for him to not think he's the therapist for you, but as you needed help, he absolutely positively should have referred you to someone else. You can't just leave someone in the lurch like that as a professional and leave them with no one.
posted by inturnaround at 10:28 PM on October 1, 2014 [11 favorites]
You walk in off the street. You say you heard about their practice by overhearing a co-working talk about them.
Now the right thing for him to do would have been to be stone faced and not acknowledged any therapeutic relationship with the co-worker because to say anything is just wrong.
But then he goes a step further and puts you both in a very awkward position by asking the co-worker if it was okay...AND THEN TELLS YOU THEY SAID NO. Now he may not have identified you to them, but you knew them...and how is he to know how you would take it (or that the co-worker couldn't figure out who was seeking treatment).
It's fine for him to not think he's the therapist for you, but as you needed help, he absolutely positively should have referred you to someone else. You can't just leave someone in the lurch like that as a professional and leave them with no one.
posted by inturnaround at 10:28 PM on October 1, 2014 [11 favorites]
Therapists are generally bound by strict legal and ethical codes of conduct regarding patient confidentiality. The exact dictates depend on how they trained and where/what they're licensed to practice, but the rules are generally very stringent, to the point that they seem strange in the context of normal social rules. For example, I have had therapists tell me that they won't acknowledge me in public unless I initiate the contact.
Yes, it may have been better for him to stay stone-faced and say "I don't know who you're talking about", but come on, he trained for therapy, not international spycraft, and depending on exactly what information you had, and what he knew about it, such a denial may not have been plausible. And again, depending on what exactly the ethics regarding his licensing and training are, it's quite likely that even if he straight-up turned you away, he would have had to tell his existing patient (your co-worker) that her confidentiality had been compromised, even if it wasn't through circumstances in his control.
Basically, his first responsibility had to be to his existing clients, who already had an expectation of confidentiality from him. I agree that there are probably ways that he could've handled it better--if he'd explained to you exactly what his particular practices are and why he does it that way, for instance--but I would be really uncomfortable seeing a therapist who didn't think twice about accepting a patient who found him through eavesdropping on another one.
posted by kagredon at 11:05 PM on October 1, 2014 [1 favorite]
Yes, it may have been better for him to stay stone-faced and say "I don't know who you're talking about", but come on, he trained for therapy, not international spycraft, and depending on exactly what information you had, and what he knew about it, such a denial may not have been plausible. And again, depending on what exactly the ethics regarding his licensing and training are, it's quite likely that even if he straight-up turned you away, he would have had to tell his existing patient (your co-worker) that her confidentiality had been compromised, even if it wasn't through circumstances in his control.
Basically, his first responsibility had to be to his existing clients, who already had an expectation of confidentiality from him. I agree that there are probably ways that he could've handled it better--if he'd explained to you exactly what his particular practices are and why he does it that way, for instance--but I would be really uncomfortable seeing a therapist who didn't think twice about accepting a patient who found him through eavesdropping on another one.
posted by kagredon at 11:05 PM on October 1, 2014 [1 favorite]
"Oh, you found me through a co-worker who did not directly recommend me?
My ethics as a therapist are such that I can not treat you under these circumstances, but here are some names of colleagues that you may like who I think take your insurance."
OP, since you've written an article, you might want to do some further research about licensing.
Things may have changed in the past 20 years, but my recall of Counseling, Psychology, and Psychiatry in New York State is that the latter two are licensed, but anyone can put out a shingle and be a counselor.
If this guy was a counselor type therapist, he may not have had any formal schooling or licensing guidelines, hence his unprofessional reaction to what is a routine, kinda mundane issue.
I have never ever heard of a therapist leaving a client in crisis without references. Ever.
I've done lots of therapy in NYC and LA. That last point bears repeating....
I have never ever heard of therapist declining further treatment w/out also offering referrals to someone more appropriate for the client. Ever.
I hope this helps clarify your experience.
posted by jbenben at 12:15 AM on October 2, 2014 [10 favorites]
My ethics as a therapist are such that I can not treat you under these circumstances, but here are some names of colleagues that you may like who I think take your insurance."
OP, since you've written an article, you might want to do some further research about licensing.
Things may have changed in the past 20 years, but my recall of Counseling, Psychology, and Psychiatry in New York State is that the latter two are licensed, but anyone can put out a shingle and be a counselor.
If this guy was a counselor type therapist, he may not have had any formal schooling or licensing guidelines, hence his unprofessional reaction to what is a routine, kinda mundane issue.
I have never ever heard of a therapist leaving a client in crisis without references. Ever.
I've done lots of therapy in NYC and LA. That last point bears repeating....
I have never ever heard of therapist declining further treatment w/out also offering referrals to someone more appropriate for the client. Ever.
I hope this helps clarify your experience.
posted by jbenben at 12:15 AM on October 2, 2014 [10 favorites]
Your therapist made the biggest faux pas here and should have simply referred you to a colleague. I can't believe he made you attend (and I assume pay for) a second "therapy session" for you to learn your fate! I can't believe he didn't refer you to someone in a kind and gentle way! He really shouldn't have treated a vulnerable person this way and should be ashamed of himself.
Your colleague also made a faux pas talking about her therapy out loud in the office. I mean, some people are very open like that but I think when the therapist told her she got embarrassed and that's why she sad no. I can definitely see how you found this awkward.
I had a housemate who was in therapy and his therapist sounded great. So I asked him if he would ask his therapist to see me. The therapist said no because it would be a conflict of interest. Probably this therapist thought something similar but really could have handled it more professionally. I hope you ended up getting the help you needed and that you won't be too worried to go for therapy if you feel the need for some now.
posted by hazyjane at 12:42 AM on October 2, 2014 [12 favorites]
Your colleague also made a faux pas talking about her therapy out loud in the office. I mean, some people are very open like that but I think when the therapist told her she got embarrassed and that's why she sad no. I can definitely see how you found this awkward.
I had a housemate who was in therapy and his therapist sounded great. So I asked him if he would ask his therapist to see me. The therapist said no because it would be a conflict of interest. Probably this therapist thought something similar but really could have handled it more professionally. I hope you ended up getting the help you needed and that you won't be too worried to go for therapy if you feel the need for some now.
posted by hazyjane at 12:42 AM on October 2, 2014 [12 favorites]
there was an element of betrayal in your therapist's conduct. the moment he asked your co-worker if it was ok to see you, the co-worker knew that someone in the workplace was seeking therapy, and it probably wouldn't be too difficult to figure out who it was.
posted by bruce at 1:45 AM on October 2, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by bruce at 1:45 AM on October 2, 2014 [1 favorite]
There are a lot of crappy therapists out there. I don't think this guy was intentionally trying to hurt you, but also I don't think he did a good job.
As has been pointed out, he should have at least given you a referral.
I'm curious: you saw him twice, right? Did he charge you or your insurance for those visits?
posted by doctor tough love at 4:31 AM on October 2, 2014
As has been pointed out, he should have at least given you a referral.
I'm curious: you saw him twice, right? Did he charge you or your insurance for those visits?
posted by doctor tough love at 4:31 AM on October 2, 2014
I overheard a co-worker talking about her therapist and I looked him up and contacted him.
Did the co-worker explicitly say the therapist's name in this conversation you were eavesdropping on, or did you have to do some digging to locate him? If the former, your faux pas seems pretty minor; if the latter, it seems pretty creepy to me.
In my view, therapy is generally private/personal. I know that some of my friends and colleagues see therapists, but I have no desire to know anything more about that, including who they see, because it's simply none of my business. But if you overheard your co-worker raving about "Dr. Smith at Excellent Therapists Group" or something, I think your mistake was understandable.
In general, though, I'd advise you to try and tune out conversations about therapy and other personal issues that you might hear at work. The people talking may not know that you can hear them, may not be comfortable with others overhearing, and almost certainly wouldn't like the idea of someone taking mental notes about the conversation.
posted by schroedingersgirl at 4:34 AM on October 2, 2014 [3 favorites]
Did the co-worker explicitly say the therapist's name in this conversation you were eavesdropping on, or did you have to do some digging to locate him? If the former, your faux pas seems pretty minor; if the latter, it seems pretty creepy to me.
In my view, therapy is generally private/personal. I know that some of my friends and colleagues see therapists, but I have no desire to know anything more about that, including who they see, because it's simply none of my business. But if you overheard your co-worker raving about "Dr. Smith at Excellent Therapists Group" or something, I think your mistake was understandable.
In general, though, I'd advise you to try and tune out conversations about therapy and other personal issues that you might hear at work. The people talking may not know that you can hear them, may not be comfortable with others overhearing, and almost certainly wouldn't like the idea of someone taking mental notes about the conversation.
posted by schroedingersgirl at 4:34 AM on October 2, 2014 [3 favorites]
This therapist was absolutely in the wrong, and it was shitty of him to make you feel like you had done something unethical.
I used to work for a very large corporation, so large that there was an on-site therapist available as part of our benefits. In other words, myself and all of his patients were colleagues, and none of us had to "approve" of this, nor was it an ethical dilemma for him. He behaved professionally, as described upthread, and it was not an issue.
I have to wonder... was this therapist from your past licensed?
posted by telegraph at 4:38 AM on October 2, 2014 [5 favorites]
I used to work for a very large corporation, so large that there was an on-site therapist available as part of our benefits. In other words, myself and all of his patients were colleagues, and none of us had to "approve" of this, nor was it an ethical dilemma for him. He behaved professionally, as described upthread, and it was not an issue.
I have to wonder... was this therapist from your past licensed?
posted by telegraph at 4:38 AM on October 2, 2014 [5 favorites]
There isn't a lot of information about the therapist other than how you felt. He obviously had an established relationship with your co-worker, who knows for how long or with what focus. He may have had a specificity you knew nothing about. Because trust is a huge issue in therapy in general, but especially with many long term refractory conditions, the fact you heard about him in this way impinged on his current relationship with his current patient, and his first loyalty would be to the established relationship. I can't think it actually got very far without him asking how you were referred, so I doubt he gathered an idea of how bad off you were. It's not as if everyone is Sherlock Holmes and has you diagnosed as you walk in the room.
Not to excuse him but trying to come up with explanations for his behavior.
For instance, you are new at your job. Clamming up in front of the new person would be more hostile than continuing as usual, so people have their normal conversations while you are around. Let's say the co-worker started seeing this person because she is anorexic and this person semi-focuses on eating disorders. Or child abuse. Or whatever. Finding out that you got their name from an overheard conversation is problematic for many possible reasons and NYC is unique in its variety of therapists.
It's understandable that this was very upsetting for you because finding help is hard enough and most people are stumped by trying to find a therapist. I use to and still occasionally help people find people who can deal with specific issues, and initially in a new area, it's getting a bunch of recommendations and going through them to find a match, which is pretty bloodless as I'm not emotionally affected by it or the process and not excessively time consuming as there aren't as many options outside extremely populous areas.
I don't know if you got to talk about the severity of your issues or your history, but there's the possibility this person was not use to dealing with "unsorted" clients, assuming you fell back into some tier of care. Still, not an excuse, but a possible explanation, as accepting a large range of insurance might be due to some specialization that doesn't always tend toward the wealthy.
Yes, maybe this person was crappy, or particularly worried about their patient, or particularly worried about being sued. You don't know. We can't say. It could have been a delicate time for that client, which is why they were even talking about therapy at all.
Basically, it could have been anything, but it wasn't you. If you needed a doctor, overheard someone talking about their doctor, went to see that doctor and they turned out to be a tail specialist, you not having a tail would not only be odd, those with tails might have a problem.
Your problem is that this experience turned you off of the whole concept of therapy or therapists. Bad experiences at bad times are why people fear doctors, hospitals, medicine, anything and everything, etc. It could be that your other anxieties are now subsumed under this one. If you can, it'd be better to deal with it if possible, because if you to really need a therapist in the future, it would be a bigger problem for them as a whole to be the problem.
Sadly, hospitals and therapy have been traumatizing experiences for many people. So have schools and teachers, for that matter. The usual way to deal with anxiety is exposure, but many people will do everything to avoid these things, hence the dilemma.
Most people talk about best and worst experiences, so you're not going to hear about okay therapists, while lots of people have terrible therapist stories. Real therapy is work and not pleasant, like much of life. You sometimes need the former for the latter, but if most people could deal with the disturbing aspects of life on their own, there wouldn't be therapists. A lot of people get supportive therapy, which is just support, which doesn't necessarily need a trained therapist, but comfort and advice is not a bad thing and maybe what you need. If it's covered, maybe you could see a therapist, but not all therapists are balanced, completely secure people, so telling a therapist you have issues with therapists is not necessarily the place to start, unless they have been pre-sorted for you.
posted by provoliminal at 5:05 AM on October 2, 2014 [4 favorites]
Not to excuse him but trying to come up with explanations for his behavior.
For instance, you are new at your job. Clamming up in front of the new person would be more hostile than continuing as usual, so people have their normal conversations while you are around. Let's say the co-worker started seeing this person because she is anorexic and this person semi-focuses on eating disorders. Or child abuse. Or whatever. Finding out that you got their name from an overheard conversation is problematic for many possible reasons and NYC is unique in its variety of therapists.
It's understandable that this was very upsetting for you because finding help is hard enough and most people are stumped by trying to find a therapist. I use to and still occasionally help people find people who can deal with specific issues, and initially in a new area, it's getting a bunch of recommendations and going through them to find a match, which is pretty bloodless as I'm not emotionally affected by it or the process and not excessively time consuming as there aren't as many options outside extremely populous areas.
I don't know if you got to talk about the severity of your issues or your history, but there's the possibility this person was not use to dealing with "unsorted" clients, assuming you fell back into some tier of care. Still, not an excuse, but a possible explanation, as accepting a large range of insurance might be due to some specialization that doesn't always tend toward the wealthy.
Yes, maybe this person was crappy, or particularly worried about their patient, or particularly worried about being sued. You don't know. We can't say. It could have been a delicate time for that client, which is why they were even talking about therapy at all.
Basically, it could have been anything, but it wasn't you. If you needed a doctor, overheard someone talking about their doctor, went to see that doctor and they turned out to be a tail specialist, you not having a tail would not only be odd, those with tails might have a problem.
Your problem is that this experience turned you off of the whole concept of therapy or therapists. Bad experiences at bad times are why people fear doctors, hospitals, medicine, anything and everything, etc. It could be that your other anxieties are now subsumed under this one. If you can, it'd be better to deal with it if possible, because if you to really need a therapist in the future, it would be a bigger problem for them as a whole to be the problem.
Sadly, hospitals and therapy have been traumatizing experiences for many people. So have schools and teachers, for that matter. The usual way to deal with anxiety is exposure, but many people will do everything to avoid these things, hence the dilemma.
Most people talk about best and worst experiences, so you're not going to hear about okay therapists, while lots of people have terrible therapist stories. Real therapy is work and not pleasant, like much of life. You sometimes need the former for the latter, but if most people could deal with the disturbing aspects of life on their own, there wouldn't be therapists. A lot of people get supportive therapy, which is just support, which doesn't necessarily need a trained therapist, but comfort and advice is not a bad thing and maybe what you need. If it's covered, maybe you could see a therapist, but not all therapists are balanced, completely secure people, so telling a therapist you have issues with therapists is not necessarily the place to start, unless they have been pre-sorted for you.
posted by provoliminal at 5:05 AM on October 2, 2014 [4 favorites]
I'm going to be honest with you -- unless your coworker specifically mentioned the name of their therapist to you during a direct conversation, you looking that therapist up in order to go to them too was inappropriate. Eavesdropping on a conversation that did not involve you was faux pas #1. Not considering the ramifications of engaging the same therapist as a coworker? Well, if you'd never encountered that norm within therapy, then I don't see how you'd know that such things are inherent conflicts of interest for both patients and therapists across the board. Still, it strikes me as a little odd that it never occurred to you to a) not use information you acquired via eavesdropping and b) at least ask your coworker if it would be okay for you to learn more about their therapist, too.
The therapist did mishandle things for sure, though. I can think of a number of reasons why, but he should have been more professional and not gotten angry with you. My guess is that he was confused as to why you didn't understand the boundaries he was explaining to you in a clumsy way. I'm sorry you had that experience.
Bottom line: mistakes happen. We're all human. Stop turning this into a catastrophe and move forward by seeking out another therapist.
posted by Hermione Granger at 5:06 AM on October 2, 2014 [9 favorites]
The therapist did mishandle things for sure, though. I can think of a number of reasons why, but he should have been more professional and not gotten angry with you. My guess is that he was confused as to why you didn't understand the boundaries he was explaining to you in a clumsy way. I'm sorry you had that experience.
Bottom line: mistakes happen. We're all human. Stop turning this into a catastrophe and move forward by seeking out another therapist.
posted by Hermione Granger at 5:06 AM on October 2, 2014 [9 favorites]
Best answer: I'm a therapist.
As I see it, there are several questions embedded within yours, and a lot of people have answered parts of them. I'll give it a shot from my perspective:
1) Did I (melissam) do anything wrong in how I approached this?
Nope. You didn't do a thing wrong. Overhearing a name is not wrong, seeking out the therapist is not wrong, setting up appointments is not wrong, telling the therapist how you got there is not wrong.
2) Was the therapist constrained not to see you? I.e., did he act out of an ethical or professional code he was bound by when he decided that he could not just keep seeing you?
Nope. Even not knowing his training or his discipline, I can say with substantial confidence that there is no professional code that bound him to make the decision he made. I would not have made that decision, and I teach ethics to other therapists. No state regs that I am familiar with, and no professional organization codes of conduct, prohibit him treating you given the situation that you have described here. It is possible that there is something that you are not including, not realizing that it is important, that would so bind him, but my guess is that this is his personal ethical principle (such as it is) at work.
3) In light of his personal ethics, did the therapist handle this the right way?
Nope. He flubbed this massively. As others have pointed out above, his actions aren't even internally consistent, much less in keeping with an ethic whereby he is supposed to bear the silent burden of these types of ethical situations. I don't think he was "mean," because I think that requires an intention to cause harm, but his intention is really beside the point when he messed up this badly.
There is nothing for you to feel badly about here. You did nothing wrong. Based on what you have presented here, the therapist, for whatever set of reasons, handled this poorly, and there was nothing you should have done differently.
I would like to suggest two other things that are not meant to excuse the therapist's behavior, but that I feel are germane to the general issue of how you might view an incident like this:
1) Making this mistake does not make this guy a bad therapist, but any stretch. It makes him a bad therapist in the moment that he did this to you, but even then, there is good research that shows an early mistake in therapy that is appropriately apologized for and resolved leads to better outcomes for the patient through strengthening the relationship. There are a couple of answers on AskMe who seem to hate therapists, and view the smallest lapse as evidence of their general perfidy. I'm not sure that's going to help anyone in the long term. This guy might be the world's worst therapist, a dude who's clueless about how to handle stuff like this but is otherwise fabulous, or some quite good who had a bad moment. We don't know. It's clear that he caused harm here, though, and that's enough to piss anyone off.
2) While I have answered this question on the basis of what you wrote, and have accepted it as an accurate depiction of what happened, my experience suggests that if we had a recording of what happened in the room it might reveal a very different narrative. This is not bad or wrong of you, but particularly with the expectations that people bring to therapy, what happened in fact and what happened in feeling often get conflated. I'll share a brief anecdote: I was working with a woman, and had been for several months, who was struggling mightily with anxiety and a particular kind of self-defeating self-talk that I felt I was having trouble helping her to handle. After thinking about it for a couple of weeks, I decided to suggest that she try a short course of Cognitive Behavioral therapy with someone else (I don't practice CBT) to handle a couple of very specific issues, at which point we could pick back up. During our session I said as much to her, using particular care to stress that I wanted to keep working with her, that I thought we were making progress in other areas, that the other therapy would be an adjunct, and that the decision was hers and if she wanted to go on as normal I would be happy with that as well. I asked her to think about it and suggested we talk about it the next week. When she came in the next week, she related how distraught and upset she'd been all week. As we talked, she related what she had heard me say: "I can't help you. I don't like having you as my patient. I am going to discharge you." She wasn't saying she felt like that's what I'd said, she was saying that's what I said. She was wrong about that, but she would have sworn she was right.
On preview: I'm going to be honest with you -- unless your coworker specifically mentioned the name of their therapist to you during a direct conversation, you looking that therapist up in order to go to them too was inappropriate.
I completely disagree. Public conversations, even if one is not explicitly involved, are public.
posted by OmieWise at 5:14 AM on October 2, 2014 [50 favorites]
As I see it, there are several questions embedded within yours, and a lot of people have answered parts of them. I'll give it a shot from my perspective:
1) Did I (melissam) do anything wrong in how I approached this?
Nope. You didn't do a thing wrong. Overhearing a name is not wrong, seeking out the therapist is not wrong, setting up appointments is not wrong, telling the therapist how you got there is not wrong.
2) Was the therapist constrained not to see you? I.e., did he act out of an ethical or professional code he was bound by when he decided that he could not just keep seeing you?
Nope. Even not knowing his training or his discipline, I can say with substantial confidence that there is no professional code that bound him to make the decision he made. I would not have made that decision, and I teach ethics to other therapists. No state regs that I am familiar with, and no professional organization codes of conduct, prohibit him treating you given the situation that you have described here. It is possible that there is something that you are not including, not realizing that it is important, that would so bind him, but my guess is that this is his personal ethical principle (such as it is) at work.
3) In light of his personal ethics, did the therapist handle this the right way?
Nope. He flubbed this massively. As others have pointed out above, his actions aren't even internally consistent, much less in keeping with an ethic whereby he is supposed to bear the silent burden of these types of ethical situations. I don't think he was "mean," because I think that requires an intention to cause harm, but his intention is really beside the point when he messed up this badly.
There is nothing for you to feel badly about here. You did nothing wrong. Based on what you have presented here, the therapist, for whatever set of reasons, handled this poorly, and there was nothing you should have done differently.
I would like to suggest two other things that are not meant to excuse the therapist's behavior, but that I feel are germane to the general issue of how you might view an incident like this:
1) Making this mistake does not make this guy a bad therapist, but any stretch. It makes him a bad therapist in the moment that he did this to you, but even then, there is good research that shows an early mistake in therapy that is appropriately apologized for and resolved leads to better outcomes for the patient through strengthening the relationship. There are a couple of answers on AskMe who seem to hate therapists, and view the smallest lapse as evidence of their general perfidy. I'm not sure that's going to help anyone in the long term. This guy might be the world's worst therapist, a dude who's clueless about how to handle stuff like this but is otherwise fabulous, or some quite good who had a bad moment. We don't know. It's clear that he caused harm here, though, and that's enough to piss anyone off.
2) While I have answered this question on the basis of what you wrote, and have accepted it as an accurate depiction of what happened, my experience suggests that if we had a recording of what happened in the room it might reveal a very different narrative. This is not bad or wrong of you, but particularly with the expectations that people bring to therapy, what happened in fact and what happened in feeling often get conflated. I'll share a brief anecdote: I was working with a woman, and had been for several months, who was struggling mightily with anxiety and a particular kind of self-defeating self-talk that I felt I was having trouble helping her to handle. After thinking about it for a couple of weeks, I decided to suggest that she try a short course of Cognitive Behavioral therapy with someone else (I don't practice CBT) to handle a couple of very specific issues, at which point we could pick back up. During our session I said as much to her, using particular care to stress that I wanted to keep working with her, that I thought we were making progress in other areas, that the other therapy would be an adjunct, and that the decision was hers and if she wanted to go on as normal I would be happy with that as well. I asked her to think about it and suggested we talk about it the next week. When she came in the next week, she related how distraught and upset she'd been all week. As we talked, she related what she had heard me say: "I can't help you. I don't like having you as my patient. I am going to discharge you." She wasn't saying she felt like that's what I'd said, she was saying that's what I said. She was wrong about that, but she would have sworn she was right.
On preview: I'm going to be honest with you -- unless your coworker specifically mentioned the name of their therapist to you during a direct conversation, you looking that therapist up in order to go to them too was inappropriate.
I completely disagree. Public conversations, even if one is not explicitly involved, are public.
posted by OmieWise at 5:14 AM on October 2, 2014 [50 favorites]
"Even not knowing his training or his discipline, I can say with substantial confidence that there is no professional code that bound him to make the decision he made. I would not have made that decision, and I teach ethics to other therapists."
Even the APA Ethical Principles of Psychologists and Code of Conduct Standard 3.05 Multiple Relationships?
posted by doctor tough love at 6:59 AM on October 2, 2014 [1 favorite]
Even the APA Ethical Principles of Psychologists and Code of Conduct Standard 3.05 Multiple Relationships?
3.05 Multiple RelationshipsIt may have been a judgement call on the part of the therapist, but the APA code would appear to back them up.
(a) A multiple relationship occurs when a psychologist is in a professional role with a person and (1) at the same time is in another role with the same person, (2) at the same time is in a relationship with a person closely associated with or related to the person with whom the psychologist has the professional relationship, or (3) promises to enter into another relationship in the future with the person or a person closely associated with or related to the person.
A psychologist refrains from entering into a multiple relationship if the multiple relationship could reasonably be expected to impair the psychologist's objectivity, competence or effectiveness in performing his or her functions as a psychologist, or otherwise risks exploitation or harm to the person with whom the professional relationship exists.
Multiple relationships that would not reasonably be expected to cause impairment or risk exploitation or harm are not unethical.
posted by doctor tough love at 6:59 AM on October 2, 2014 [1 favorite]
Doctor tough love, none of those definitions apply to the case here. The OP didn't have a close relationship with her co-worker at all.
posted by TheGoodBlood at 7:20 AM on October 2, 2014 [7 favorites]
posted by TheGoodBlood at 7:20 AM on October 2, 2014 [7 favorites]
The potential conflict of interest can be along the lines of, Your coworker is seeing the therapist because she hates work, or is having an affair with a coworker or supervisor, or is stressed out about a new promotion that no one else at work knows about, or is stressed out about layoffs that she knows are coming because she's sleeping with a supervisor, or one of 3,000 other work-related scenarios.
The therapist now has this information that may directly affect you, but the therapist cannot share it with you because of confidentiality laws.
To some extent, this is just something that happens with therapy, but therapists are generally encouraged to minimize it as much as possible, because it can get in the way of working with the "in-the-dark" client. For therapists in small towns, it's often unavoidable, as there are only so many therapists. For therapists in larger cities, they have the luxury of referring out anyone who might pose a conflict of interest. (And it's a "conflict of interest" because the therapist has a vested interest in making sure you're getting better, and in making sure the other client is getting better, and withholding knowledge from one of you that may hurt the other one gets tricky and weird.)
I don't think the therapist handled it well, but I don't think it was necessarily a wrong outcome for him not to see you. He absolutely should have given you referrals to other therapists, though.
posted by jaguar at 7:32 AM on October 2, 2014 [3 favorites]
The therapist now has this information that may directly affect you, but the therapist cannot share it with you because of confidentiality laws.
To some extent, this is just something that happens with therapy, but therapists are generally encouraged to minimize it as much as possible, because it can get in the way of working with the "in-the-dark" client. For therapists in small towns, it's often unavoidable, as there are only so many therapists. For therapists in larger cities, they have the luxury of referring out anyone who might pose a conflict of interest. (And it's a "conflict of interest" because the therapist has a vested interest in making sure you're getting better, and in making sure the other client is getting better, and withholding knowledge from one of you that may hurt the other one gets tricky and weird.)
I don't think the therapist handled it well, but I don't think it was necessarily a wrong outcome for him not to see you. He absolutely should have given you referrals to other therapists, though.
posted by jaguar at 7:32 AM on October 2, 2014 [3 favorites]
I've asked my psychologist before if I could refer friends to her, and she said it is her policy to not see people known to current clients. I likewise asked her once what she would do if anyone from my current company contacted her as a new patient, and she said she would not see anyone who worked in the same office as me as long as I was her patient. I think these are just her personal ethical rules, however, and she did a good job of explaining to me why she has these policies, which is essentially to make therapy for her current clients feel as safe and confidential as possible. I have the impression that this is her personal policy and not a professional restraint (but I have an appointment with her today and can ask!)
I get why this is confusing -- how else are people supposed to get referrals to therapists except by asking their friends and colleagues for references or picking up leads from random conversations?
You did nothing wrong here. The therapist did a poor job of explaining his reasoning.
posted by megancita at 7:41 AM on October 2, 2014 [1 favorite]
I get why this is confusing -- how else are people supposed to get referrals to therapists except by asking their friends and colleagues for references or picking up leads from random conversations?
You did nothing wrong here. The therapist did a poor job of explaining his reasoning.
posted by megancita at 7:41 AM on October 2, 2014 [1 favorite]
Demystifying Therapy: What are Dual and Multiple Roles?
It’s not your job as a client to avoid dual roles or multiple relationships, although you certainly have a choice about whether to enter into a therapy relationship when you know a multiple relationship exists. One such example is when a close friend (or someone you’re dating) refers you to their therapist and you know that the issues you wish to discuss in treatment are related to your relationship with the person who referred you to therapy. This is a time in which it may be better to look for a therapist who is a bit more removed from the relationship. Ultimately, it’s the therapist’s job to assess potential dual role situations and to use her or his best judgment but it may be useful to you to better understand the reasoning behind why multiple roles can become complicated. And this may also help you to understand why some therapists make particular decisions to avoid such situations. Of course, not all multiple roles will be apparent to you or your therapist from the beginning.posted by jaguar at 7:43 AM on October 2, 2014 [1 favorite]
Even the APA Ethical Principles of Psychologists and Code of Conduct Standard 3.05 Multiple Relationships?
Yes. You are misreading what you quoted. The code makes a distinction between a "professional relationship" and a "relationship." The former is about providing psychological services, the latter is about other types of relationships. If you go back and read it, you'll see that what is ethically dubious in the code is mixing both types of relationships, not having "professional relationships" with both people.
While I personally don't think based on what we know here that not seeing melissam was warranted, I do think its up to the individual therapist.
posted by OmieWise at 7:52 AM on October 2, 2014 [6 favorites]
Yes. You are misreading what you quoted. The code makes a distinction between a "professional relationship" and a "relationship." The former is about providing psychological services, the latter is about other types of relationships. If you go back and read it, you'll see that what is ethically dubious in the code is mixing both types of relationships, not having "professional relationships" with both people.
While I personally don't think based on what we know here that not seeing melissam was warranted, I do think its up to the individual therapist.
posted by OmieWise at 7:52 AM on October 2, 2014 [6 favorites]
I guess what ultimately I don't understand is why therapy isn't just like any doctor?
Because a cornerstone of 1:1 therapy is that it is a safe and private space, and it won't be effective unless patients are assured of their privacy and safety. In addition to the conflicts of interest someone enumerated above, how would she feel if she is in the waiting room and you're hanging out there? How would she feel if, for example, one of her issues was that she felt people were stalking her -- and now she knows that someone eavesdropping on her at work also has access to her therapist's office? It just has potential to get weird and boundary-crossing and invasive.
The irony of course is that if I understand your story correctly, he went ahead and crossed ALL the boundaries by making her accountable for your treatment outcome, so he really has a lot more to feel guilty about here than you do.
posted by fingersandtoes at 8:03 AM on October 2, 2014 [7 favorites]
Because a cornerstone of 1:1 therapy is that it is a safe and private space, and it won't be effective unless patients are assured of their privacy and safety. In addition to the conflicts of interest someone enumerated above, how would she feel if she is in the waiting room and you're hanging out there? How would she feel if, for example, one of her issues was that she felt people were stalking her -- and now she knows that someone eavesdropping on her at work also has access to her therapist's office? It just has potential to get weird and boundary-crossing and invasive.
The irony of course is that if I understand your story correctly, he went ahead and crossed ALL the boundaries by making her accountable for your treatment outcome, so he really has a lot more to feel guilty about here than you do.
posted by fingersandtoes at 8:03 AM on October 2, 2014 [7 favorites]
If he had a policy against treating coworkers, whether it was a personal quirk or an actual professional guideline, he should have had a screening process in place and asked you (and all new patients) where you worked before you even went to the first appointment. At the same time as (I assume) his office asked what insurance you had. What would have happened if you'd never told him how you heard about him? If you'd said that you just heard, but didn't remember where, that he was good, or simply that you looked him up...he would never have known about this supposed problem. That's why to me, from a common sense standpoint at least, his behavior was wrong and everything you did was perfectly understandable.
posted by DestinationUnknown at 8:06 AM on October 2, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by DestinationUnknown at 8:06 AM on October 2, 2014 [1 favorite]
I think OmieWise seems right in that it's not technically wrong for therapists to treat people who know each other, but there seems to be some tacit social thing going on here that views it as bad. And I'm not getting that even now.
I've recommended people to my therapist and it hasn't been an issue. If I bring the person up, my therapist pretends they don't know who I'm talking about ( this has only happened on a few occasions, and not really in a "let's discuss this person" way, just part of talking about a larger topic.
Usually I think the person just says "sweetkid recommended me" and then the person tells me what they thought of my therapist, but my therapist never mentions any of it to me.
I disagree that therapy shouldn't be like any other doctor. I think it's perfectly normal to recommend mental health doctors to each other. I do it often, partially because I don't want people to feel fear or stigma talking about these things, or think it's some vastly different thing than "do you like your allergist?"
I think as you say, the better thing to do would have been to ask your coworker about it, the overhearing part is kind of odd. Still, the therapist should have handled it better and not gotten so visibly upset.
I do think you should get back to pursuing therapy, in whatever format feels instinctively more comfortable to you. Mine works in a big artsy building rather than a medical office and doesn't have a reception area. I like that. It sounds like what works for you is really different and that's ok - if you're still in NYC or any big city setting, there are so many different styles and modalities to choose from. But personally I found looking for the right fit and working for that person really empowering.
posted by sweetkid at 8:18 AM on October 2, 2014
she said it is her policy to not see people known to current clients.
This makes no sense to me. What if someone begins therapy, and many sessions in it comes to light that this person is "known" (co-worker, neighbor, whatever) to another patient of the therapist's? Does therapy then have to stop?
I cannot see any possible ethical dilemma in treating two people who work for the same company, unless as Jaguar illustrates, the therapy actually concerns a work issue affecting both of them, or company trade secrets or something. I can see it being a far more pertinent issue that a therapist would find it necessary to determine who a new patient "knows". I actually think questions about "Who referred you?" "How did you hear about me?" are off-putting and unnecessary.
As for the co-worker in question's "privacy" -- I mean, if she was talking openly and loudly to a whole group about her being in therapy, and even including the therapist's name, what expectation of privacy could she have about it?
However, the the worst aspect of this IMO was the therapist actually asking the co-worker if it would be "OK" to treat OP. This puts the first patient in a position of a colleague or supervisor, asking her to advise/instruct on professional matters. The therapist should make his own professional decisions about whom to treat and whom to refer out
posted by RRgal at 8:21 AM on October 2, 2014 [4 favorites]
This makes no sense to me. What if someone begins therapy, and many sessions in it comes to light that this person is "known" (co-worker, neighbor, whatever) to another patient of the therapist's? Does therapy then have to stop?
I cannot see any possible ethical dilemma in treating two people who work for the same company, unless as Jaguar illustrates, the therapy actually concerns a work issue affecting both of them, or company trade secrets or something. I can see it being a far more pertinent issue that a therapist would find it necessary to determine who a new patient "knows". I actually think questions about "Who referred you?" "How did you hear about me?" are off-putting and unnecessary.
As for the co-worker in question's "privacy" -- I mean, if she was talking openly and loudly to a whole group about her being in therapy, and even including the therapist's name, what expectation of privacy could she have about it?
However, the the worst aspect of this IMO was the therapist actually asking the co-worker if it would be "OK" to treat OP. This puts the first patient in a position of a colleague or supervisor, asking her to advise/instruct on professional matters. The therapist should make his own professional decisions about whom to treat and whom to refer out
posted by RRgal at 8:21 AM on October 2, 2014 [4 favorites]
It's not like giving you stitches or homework assignments. If it was that clinical, then there probably wouldn't be a problem, but they both thought it was an issue, so it's an issue.
We can't say why it is or why he reacted how he did, or really how he reacted, but you still have a problem with your old coworker and therapy, and that's the problem. If we knew what was going on with them, it would obscure this problem, because it doesn't matter what is going on with them, this is your problem. No matter what, they didn't intend to hurt you or your attitude toward therapy, but five years later, you're still bothered by it. What if we knew why, would your problem disappear? Even if they had very good reasons, it doesn't change that you have strong negative reactions now, and a bunch of people saying who is more to blame or good or bad doesn't make any difference.
The way people here want to pick sides and point blame shows why at it's most base it wasn't a good idea. Whether you bypassed some filter or tripped an alarm, it wasn't a good fit, but for all anyone knows maybe you would have attached bad feelings to any branch you grabbed at the time that failed you. Maybe it wasn't her at all but him. Maybe anything that didn't save you right away would have become invested with all that weight. Like becoming violently ill while drinking grape soda, even though the soda didn't make you ill, you associate them.
I think the fact that he reacted to how you found him is telling, because it's not a usual reaction, which is why I immediately jump to some kind of special circumstances. If he asked, it leans one way, if you volunteered, another. Either way, blame doesn't help anything.
posted by provoliminal at 8:33 AM on October 2, 2014 [1 favorite]
We can't say why it is or why he reacted how he did, or really how he reacted, but you still have a problem with your old coworker and therapy, and that's the problem. If we knew what was going on with them, it would obscure this problem, because it doesn't matter what is going on with them, this is your problem. No matter what, they didn't intend to hurt you or your attitude toward therapy, but five years later, you're still bothered by it. What if we knew why, would your problem disappear? Even if they had very good reasons, it doesn't change that you have strong negative reactions now, and a bunch of people saying who is more to blame or good or bad doesn't make any difference.
The way people here want to pick sides and point blame shows why at it's most base it wasn't a good idea. Whether you bypassed some filter or tripped an alarm, it wasn't a good fit, but for all anyone knows maybe you would have attached bad feelings to any branch you grabbed at the time that failed you. Maybe it wasn't her at all but him. Maybe anything that didn't save you right away would have become invested with all that weight. Like becoming violently ill while drinking grape soda, even though the soda didn't make you ill, you associate them.
I think the fact that he reacted to how you found him is telling, because it's not a usual reaction, which is why I immediately jump to some kind of special circumstances. If he asked, it leans one way, if you volunteered, another. Either way, blame doesn't help anything.
posted by provoliminal at 8:33 AM on October 2, 2014 [1 favorite]
If the therapist didn't find it wise to treat you in light of finding out you worked with the other person, he should've referred you to another therapist. Simple as that. He should not have said a word to the co-worker - and frankly it probably weirded her out, too.
In a place as dense with everything as NYC is, trying to choose any kind of doctor, hair dresser, restaurant, nail salon, etc, can be overwhelming without hearing some sort of good word-of-mouth about it from a person you know. There were times when I lived there that I thought maybe I should go to a therapist, but just the act of trying to find a good one was too daunting for me at those times. So I never did, even though I really probably should have.
The therapist screwed up if he never even tried to refer you to someone else. And maybe your former co-worker was a bit of a blabbermouth for talking about her therapist at work to the point where you were able to look the guy up without directly asking her who she was seeing. I don't think you did anything wrong by your account, and it doesn't sound like something you should beat yourself up over. It just sounds like a strange situation.
posted by wondermouse at 8:59 AM on October 2, 2014
In a place as dense with everything as NYC is, trying to choose any kind of doctor, hair dresser, restaurant, nail salon, etc, can be overwhelming without hearing some sort of good word-of-mouth about it from a person you know. There were times when I lived there that I thought maybe I should go to a therapist, but just the act of trying to find a good one was too daunting for me at those times. So I never did, even though I really probably should have.
The therapist screwed up if he never even tried to refer you to someone else. And maybe your former co-worker was a bit of a blabbermouth for talking about her therapist at work to the point where you were able to look the guy up without directly asking her who she was seeing. I don't think you did anything wrong by your account, and it doesn't sound like something you should beat yourself up over. It just sounds like a strange situation.
posted by wondermouse at 8:59 AM on October 2, 2014
This makes no sense to me. What if someone begins therapy, and many sessions in it comes to light that this person is "known" (co-worker, neighbor, whatever) to another patient of the therapist's? Does therapy then have to stop?
Often, yes, if it becomes apparent there's a conflict of interest (which is not automatic, given the situations you describe). This is a thing that therapists learn about in their training. Therapist may say, "Due to unforeseen circumstances, I can't continue working with you. Let's work to find you a new therapist who can."
If you've been working with a client about dealing with a boundary-crossing neighbor, and then someone shows up in your office to work on her isolation and lack of social skills and it turns out that this new client is the first client's neighbor, how are you supposed to help both of them? Even if you as the therapist do everything "perfectly" and maintain confidentiality and help them both equally, what happens when boundary-crosser starts yelling about how her therapist "told her to talk to" the first client, and they discover they have the same therapist? How will that affect their trust in you?
I cannot see any possible ethical dilemma in treating two people who work for the same company, unless as Jaguar illustrates, the therapy actually concerns a work issue affecting both of them, or company trade secrets or something.
Often that is not apparent from the first session. Especially with therapists in private practice, who often see clients for many months, new issues (or, really, new variations on the same issues) often come to light when discussing patterns of behavior. Someone who comes in to work on boundaries in a romantic relationship is likely to discover similar patterns in their professional relationships, and want to work on all of them.
Or, you know, sometimes crises just happen and clients should be able to talk to their therapists about them without worrying information's going to get back to a coworker or friend or family member, or (more likely) without worrying that the therapist is hearing negative things about the client from some other client and that the therapist is judging them based on that third-party information.
Ethics is not just about avoiding unethical behavior but avoiding, as much as reasonable, the perception of unethical behavior.
posted by jaguar at 9:04 AM on October 2, 2014 [4 favorites]
Often, yes, if it becomes apparent there's a conflict of interest (which is not automatic, given the situations you describe). This is a thing that therapists learn about in their training. Therapist may say, "Due to unforeseen circumstances, I can't continue working with you. Let's work to find you a new therapist who can."
If you've been working with a client about dealing with a boundary-crossing neighbor, and then someone shows up in your office to work on her isolation and lack of social skills and it turns out that this new client is the first client's neighbor, how are you supposed to help both of them? Even if you as the therapist do everything "perfectly" and maintain confidentiality and help them both equally, what happens when boundary-crosser starts yelling about how her therapist "told her to talk to" the first client, and they discover they have the same therapist? How will that affect their trust in you?
I cannot see any possible ethical dilemma in treating two people who work for the same company, unless as Jaguar illustrates, the therapy actually concerns a work issue affecting both of them, or company trade secrets or something.
Often that is not apparent from the first session. Especially with therapists in private practice, who often see clients for many months, new issues (or, really, new variations on the same issues) often come to light when discussing patterns of behavior. Someone who comes in to work on boundaries in a romantic relationship is likely to discover similar patterns in their professional relationships, and want to work on all of them.
Or, you know, sometimes crises just happen and clients should be able to talk to their therapists about them without worrying information's going to get back to a coworker or friend or family member, or (more likely) without worrying that the therapist is hearing negative things about the client from some other client and that the therapist is judging them based on that third-party information.
Ethics is not just about avoiding unethical behavior but avoiding, as much as reasonable, the perception of unethical behavior.
posted by jaguar at 9:04 AM on October 2, 2014 [4 favorites]
I definitely didn't get it at all. It was along the lines of "what if you talk about each other." Which to me seems like he should do what any doctor does and just not mention it to the other patient.
I totally follow your logic. And you weren't at fault! But here's a common example:
Me: I had interaction X with person Y and clearly Y feels Z about me.
Therapist: How do you know that Y feels Z? For all you know, they could feel Q!
This helps me notice what stuff my brain often assumes, and to treat its assumptions as unreliable, unnecessary, etc. But now imagine I'd seen Person Y in the waiting room. My brain can't help imagining my therapist is speaking from actual knowledge of X, Y, and Q. So I stop assuming Z, but instead assume Q, which isn't the point, and may in fact cause other problems in my relationship with Person Y, or in future X events.
Most crucially, I would start thinking of my therapist as someone who knows the truth about my life -- rather than someone who can help me learn to figure out that stuff on my own.
posted by feral_goldfish at 9:20 AM on October 2, 2014 [7 favorites]
I totally follow your logic. And you weren't at fault! But here's a common example:
Me: I had interaction X with person Y and clearly Y feels Z about me.
Therapist: How do you know that Y feels Z? For all you know, they could feel Q!
This helps me notice what stuff my brain often assumes, and to treat its assumptions as unreliable, unnecessary, etc. But now imagine I'd seen Person Y in the waiting room. My brain can't help imagining my therapist is speaking from actual knowledge of X, Y, and Q. So I stop assuming Z, but instead assume Q, which isn't the point, and may in fact cause other problems in my relationship with Person Y, or in future X events.
Most crucially, I would start thinking of my therapist as someone who knows the truth about my life -- rather than someone who can help me learn to figure out that stuff on my own.
posted by feral_goldfish at 9:20 AM on October 2, 2014 [7 favorites]
I think the therapist was in the wrong. If he felt there was a conflict, he should have told you that he didn't think he was a good fit or that something had come up and that he would refer you to counsellors x, y and z who could help. He shouldn't have brought you in for a second session on your dime - he could have handled it over the phone.
He also erred in confirming that your co-worker was a client. He broke confidentiality. He also should not have contacted your co-worker - he broke confidentiality and may have even jeopardized your job and privacy, if the co-worker guesses.
If you feel comfortable, you could make an inquiry about this with his professional association.
He's allowed to set boundaries around who he sees and decide for himself whether he can handle conflicts. He messed up in involving you and your co-worker.
My own counsellors sometimes sees people who know others. But she has developed strict guidelines for doing so and has special training, because she also works for an institution that sees people from the same family units. And she would never, ever confirm that a referral I'd made went through, nor that another person I knew was seeing her or had even contacted her.
posted by Chaussette and the Pussy Cats at 10:54 AM on October 2, 2014 [1 favorite]
He also erred in confirming that your co-worker was a client. He broke confidentiality. He also should not have contacted your co-worker - he broke confidentiality and may have even jeopardized your job and privacy, if the co-worker guesses.
If you feel comfortable, you could make an inquiry about this with his professional association.
He's allowed to set boundaries around who he sees and decide for himself whether he can handle conflicts. He messed up in involving you and your co-worker.
My own counsellors sometimes sees people who know others. But she has developed strict guidelines for doing so and has special training, because she also works for an institution that sees people from the same family units. And she would never, ever confirm that a referral I'd made went through, nor that another person I knew was seeing her or had even contacted her.
posted by Chaussette and the Pussy Cats at 10:54 AM on October 2, 2014 [1 favorite]
I'm with OmieWise on all points, as someone who is trained as a therapist.
There is no general rule that therapists can't see clients who know each other. This would be an impossible rule in rural areas, where there may be very few therapists in the region.
Things may have changed in the past 20 years, but my recall of Counseling, Psychology, and Psychiatry in New York State is that the latter two are licensed, but anyone can put out a shingle and be a counselor.
Small data point: Things have indeed changed in NYS. (And even before Licensed Mental Health Counseling certification began, there were counselor training programs at the Master's and PhD levels, and memberships in professional organizations with ethical guidelines and opportunities for National Certified Counselor (NCC) accreditation. Those counselors could not take third-party payments. While it was possible for people to seek help from someone just calling themselves a counselor who had no training, it would've been unlikely.)
By the way, we're all taking this guy at his word that he asked the co-worker if it was okay with her. Considering the way he handled what was really not even much -if any- of an ethical dilemma for him, I wouldn't be surprised if he was fudging the truth, and just telling OP that he checked with the coworker.
posted by vitabellosi at 11:21 AM on October 2, 2014 [1 favorite]
There is no general rule that therapists can't see clients who know each other. This would be an impossible rule in rural areas, where there may be very few therapists in the region.
Things may have changed in the past 20 years, but my recall of Counseling, Psychology, and Psychiatry in New York State is that the latter two are licensed, but anyone can put out a shingle and be a counselor.
Small data point: Things have indeed changed in NYS. (And even before Licensed Mental Health Counseling certification began, there were counselor training programs at the Master's and PhD levels, and memberships in professional organizations with ethical guidelines and opportunities for National Certified Counselor (NCC) accreditation. Those counselors could not take third-party payments. While it was possible for people to seek help from someone just calling themselves a counselor who had no training, it would've been unlikely.)
By the way, we're all taking this guy at his word that he asked the co-worker if it was okay with her. Considering the way he handled what was really not even much -if any- of an ethical dilemma for him, I wouldn't be surprised if he was fudging the truth, and just telling OP that he checked with the coworker.
posted by vitabellosi at 11:21 AM on October 2, 2014 [1 favorite]
Did you do anything wrong? Not at all. You were having a hard time finding someone who took your insurance. Assuming you were insured through work, when you heard a coworker mention a therapist, it makes perfect sense to look into that person.
The therapist did not handle things well. It's a fuzzy area as to whether there would be a conflict of interest when he found out he was treating your coworker, and I think he erred too far on the side of caution. (For perspective: I once, through coincidence, ended up with the same therapist my boyfriend had been seeing a few months earlier. This was totally an iffy situation, especially since our relationship was one of the main things discussed. But I was the one who brought up that I knew my bf had seen her, and I was ok with that, as was he, so she accepted me as a client. If she had mentioned him to me, or contacted him about me, that would have been a breach of confidentiality.) But the way your therapist acted was definitely wrong. If he felt uncomfortable treating both of you, he should have calmly said so during that session, and referred you to another therapist. He should definitely have not mentioned anything to your coworker, and should not have had you come back for another session just to tell you he wouldn't treat you. I think he was borderline in breach of confidentiality for both of you.
As others have said, this was a judgment call, and many therapists wouldn't have had a problem treating both of you. Presumably this coworker was a passing acquaintance, not a major figure in your life, and you wouldn't have been discussing each other in therapy. However, there are of course things we don't know. You don't know why your coworker was in therapy, which may have impacted his decision. Here's one other scenario I can imagine: at some point down the line you and your coworker have a conflict, and you both talk about it with your therapist, and ask for advice how to handle it. Do you see the position this puts the therapist in? He cannot discuss the confidential information he has from another client, he is being asked to separately help two people on opposing sides of a conflict, and of course his inside information on the situation is going to color the way he would interpret and respond to both of you. That would put him in a very uncomfortable situation and definitely be a conflict of interest.
I hope that can help you understand why he would decline to continue working with you, but also that you did nothing wrong, and he handled the situation less than professionally. I think you should definitely pursue further therapy, and university services are a great place to start. It can take a lot of tries to get a good fit.
posted by catatethebird at 1:40 PM on October 2, 2014
The therapist did not handle things well. It's a fuzzy area as to whether there would be a conflict of interest when he found out he was treating your coworker, and I think he erred too far on the side of caution. (For perspective: I once, through coincidence, ended up with the same therapist my boyfriend had been seeing a few months earlier. This was totally an iffy situation, especially since our relationship was one of the main things discussed. But I was the one who brought up that I knew my bf had seen her, and I was ok with that, as was he, so she accepted me as a client. If she had mentioned him to me, or contacted him about me, that would have been a breach of confidentiality.) But the way your therapist acted was definitely wrong. If he felt uncomfortable treating both of you, he should have calmly said so during that session, and referred you to another therapist. He should definitely have not mentioned anything to your coworker, and should not have had you come back for another session just to tell you he wouldn't treat you. I think he was borderline in breach of confidentiality for both of you.
As others have said, this was a judgment call, and many therapists wouldn't have had a problem treating both of you. Presumably this coworker was a passing acquaintance, not a major figure in your life, and you wouldn't have been discussing each other in therapy. However, there are of course things we don't know. You don't know why your coworker was in therapy, which may have impacted his decision. Here's one other scenario I can imagine: at some point down the line you and your coworker have a conflict, and you both talk about it with your therapist, and ask for advice how to handle it. Do you see the position this puts the therapist in? He cannot discuss the confidential information he has from another client, he is being asked to separately help two people on opposing sides of a conflict, and of course his inside information on the situation is going to color the way he would interpret and respond to both of you. That would put him in a very uncomfortable situation and definitely be a conflict of interest.
I hope that can help you understand why he would decline to continue working with you, but also that you did nothing wrong, and he handled the situation less than professionally. I think you should definitely pursue further therapy, and university services are a great place to start. It can take a lot of tries to get a good fit.
posted by catatethebird at 1:40 PM on October 2, 2014
One more thing. People seem to be getting hung up in this thread on whether there is or should be a rule about treating people who work in the same place. That's only part of what happened here, though. You eavesdropped on a conversation, deliberately researched your co-worker's therapist's credentials and contact info, and told him you were there because you'd heard her discussing her engagement with him. This… really is kind of creepy, and I do think he'd have been behaving unethically to take you on as a client in those circumstances. He should have refused to discuss your co-worker and given you a referral.
posted by fingersandtoes at 1:57 PM on October 2, 2014
posted by fingersandtoes at 1:57 PM on October 2, 2014
I don't understand how people are getting "eavesdropping" from this:
But I just took what I overheard in a conversation a bunch of us we having while sorting stuff a big table
Everyone overhears things people who are not speaking directly to them in public say all the time. And in this case, it was part of a big conversation everyone was having at the table! OP, this is not eavesdropping and it doesn't make you creepy. I'm sorry that you feel like what you did was "awkward and weird," because it wasn't.
posted by tiger tiger at 2:16 PM on October 2, 2014 [7 favorites]
But I just took what I overheard in a conversation a bunch of us we having while sorting stuff a big table
Everyone overhears things people who are not speaking directly to them in public say all the time. And in this case, it was part of a big conversation everyone was having at the table! OP, this is not eavesdropping and it doesn't make you creepy. I'm sorry that you feel like what you did was "awkward and weird," because it wasn't.
posted by tiger tiger at 2:16 PM on October 2, 2014 [7 favorites]
You eavesdropped on a conversation, deliberately researched your co-worker's therapist's credentials and contact info, and told him you were there because you'd heard her discussing her engagement with him. This… really is kind of creepy,
That's a really ungenerous take. Another way to view it is "here is someone with so little experience in seeking help, grabbing onto the chance that presented itself, grabbing onto a life preserver and being very brave."
Therapists are trained to be generous, with actual creepy people even.
posted by vitabellosi at 2:22 PM on October 2, 2014 [5 favorites]
That's a really ungenerous take. Another way to view it is "here is someone with so little experience in seeking help, grabbing onto the chance that presented itself, grabbing onto a life preserver and being very brave."
Therapists are trained to be generous, with actual creepy people even.
posted by vitabellosi at 2:22 PM on October 2, 2014 [5 favorites]
1. The OP was NOT eavesdropping. Erving Goffman has a lovely essay, 'Footing', where he deconstructs our simple notions of speaker and addressee, showing among other things many roles in which hearers are neither being directly addressed, nor eavesdropping. (I can't find my copy right now, but I will if I have to.)
2. Repeating catatethebird's point, because it suddenly became extra-relevant: You were having a hard time finding someone who took your insurance. Assuming you were insured through work, when you heard a coworker mention a therapist, it makes perfect sense to look into that person.
3. It is perfectly normal, when a customer first meets a professional, to explain why that professional was selected. Most often it is the professional who solicits that information, in order to know whether their website is showing up on search results, or what colleagues have done them a favor. In the past two weeks, I've seen this happen with a locksmith (the customer had been told to "tell him Martin sent you"), two attorneys (one each way), and a Zen temple (information solicited indirectly). Medical specialists routinely ask, and so a patient is likely to volunteer the information, assuming it is wanted. It is also common to relay flattering information (your other patient likes you!) when asking someone for help, especially when feeling desperate, but also in other routine circumstances -- for example, in scripts used by political campaign staff to solicit money or volunteers.
posted by feral_goldfish at 4:14 PM on October 2, 2014 [4 favorites]
2. Repeating catatethebird's point, because it suddenly became extra-relevant: You were having a hard time finding someone who took your insurance. Assuming you were insured through work, when you heard a coworker mention a therapist, it makes perfect sense to look into that person.
3. It is perfectly normal, when a customer first meets a professional, to explain why that professional was selected. Most often it is the professional who solicits that information, in order to know whether their website is showing up on search results, or what colleagues have done them a favor. In the past two weeks, I've seen this happen with a locksmith (the customer had been told to "tell him Martin sent you"), two attorneys (one each way), and a Zen temple (information solicited indirectly). Medical specialists routinely ask, and so a patient is likely to volunteer the information, assuming it is wanted. It is also common to relay flattering information (your other patient likes you!) when asking someone for help, especially when feeling desperate, but also in other routine circumstances -- for example, in scripts used by political campaign staff to solicit money or volunteers.
posted by feral_goldfish at 4:14 PM on October 2, 2014 [4 favorites]
The only valid reason to perceive this story as creepy is because of the OP's own feelings of creepiness: she was in a desperate, isolated, vulnerable situation; felt shamed for crossing boundaries she didn't know existed; and continues to feel troubled by these memories. Sometimes, people take a creepy situation or feelings, and attribute the creepiness to the specific people in that situation, or the people having those feelings. I guess it's kind of an attribution effect. It sounds like OP has been making this kind of attribution error herself.
You know who's really good at sorting out attribution errors, and helping people get over creepy traumatic memories that irrationally continue to trouble them? . . . . . . . . . . . . Yep. Uh, but this time you'll want to do more careful vetting. And maybe pick some nice CBT person, especially since that worked well before. Provoliminal very sensibly proposed this as exposure therapy -- what people do for phobias of spiders, etc. If some future tragedy happens, and you suddenly badly need professional help, you may feel more efficient and prepared if you're not dealing with the tragedy AND the phobia at the same time.
posted by feral_goldfish at 5:09 PM on October 2, 2014
You know who's really good at sorting out attribution errors, and helping people get over creepy traumatic memories that irrationally continue to trouble them? . . . . . . . . . . . . Yep. Uh, but this time you'll want to do more careful vetting. And maybe pick some nice CBT person, especially since that worked well before. Provoliminal very sensibly proposed this as exposure therapy -- what people do for phobias of spiders, etc. If some future tragedy happens, and you suddenly badly need professional help, you may feel more efficient and prepared if you're not dealing with the tragedy AND the phobia at the same time.
posted by feral_goldfish at 5:09 PM on October 2, 2014
I'm so sorry you had this rotten experience. I've seen therapists a number of times, and have found the ethical standards to be varied, as well as the competence. Your state has a regulatory/licensing agency, and you can complain to them if you choose. You really didn't do anything wrong, and you deserved better treatment. Keep reminding yourself of that when you feel like beating yourself up.
posted by theora55 at 1:47 AM on October 3, 2014
posted by theora55 at 1:47 AM on October 3, 2014
My comment isn't a result of attribution error. It's seeing things from the potential POV of the first client and of the therapist. Here's the thing: this misunderstanding has been bothering the OP for five years because she doesn't understand why the therapist had this negative reaction, because OP knows she meant no harm and was just trying to get some help from someone she knew would take her insurance. I think understanding why it could be seen as invading her co-worker's privacy - even though she didn't mean to and was making an innocent and understandable faux pas - could help her see where the misunderstanding came from, and hopefully put an end to worrying about it.
posted by fingersandtoes at 4:48 AM on October 3, 2014
posted by fingersandtoes at 4:48 AM on October 3, 2014
That makes sense. It may well have felt creepy to the co-worker, who didn't know who OP was.
posted by feral_goldfish at 5:49 AM on October 3, 2014
posted by feral_goldfish at 5:49 AM on October 3, 2014
It may have felt creepy to the coworker. Therapists, however, are supposed to help people sort out perception from reality and very much need to be able to do that for themselves as well. A therapist thinking the actions of the OP were "creepy" is really unlikely, and a good therapist would not have used the first client's perception of creepiness (if that perception existed) to be a reason to not see the OP, absent a bunch of other factors (like a history of the first client being stalked by a co-worker) that would have made seeing the OP a no-go even if the first client didn't think the OP was being "creepy."
So if the therapist found the behavior "creepy," then the therapist is a bad therapist, and the problem is that the therapist is a bad therapist. If the co-worker found the behavior "creepy" and there were enough other factors to make that a deciding factor for the therapist, then those other factors were the reason the therapist said no. The OP's behavior (which is not actually creepy) would very likely not have played into that decision.
posted by jaguar at 6:37 AM on October 3, 2014
So if the therapist found the behavior "creepy," then the therapist is a bad therapist, and the problem is that the therapist is a bad therapist. If the co-worker found the behavior "creepy" and there were enough other factors to make that a deciding factor for the therapist, then those other factors were the reason the therapist said no. The OP's behavior (which is not actually creepy) would very likely not have played into that decision.
posted by jaguar at 6:37 AM on October 3, 2014
The co-worker finding the OP creepy would also involve the therapist going into a level of detail I find hard to imagine. I mean, I assumed the therapist contacted the coworker and said something along the lines of "Someone who works with you is seeking therapy from me, are you comfortable with that?" and the coworker said no. If what the therapist actually did was say to the coworker, "Hey, one of your colleagues eavesdropped on you and overheard my name and then looked me up and came in for therapy"--well, if anyone's creepy in that scenario, it's the therapist.
posted by tiger tiger at 7:14 AM on October 3, 2014
posted by tiger tiger at 7:14 AM on October 3, 2014
We don't know what objectively happened, and the OP doesn't even recall what was said. For all we know, he didn't actually "check with" the coworker in they way people are assuming. Maybe he said he had to check something or figure it out, consulted a colleague, guideline, resource or just really considered the situation, but the OP left with the feeling that it was the coworker's "fault" for the same reason she doesn't specifically remember what was said: she was extremely emotional at the time, desperately seeking help, only to be ultimately refused. This person becomes the symbol of being thwarted in a time of need, but for all we know that fragment of "what if you talk about each other" was one example she latched onto mentally. No matter what, the OP recognizes this person is not realistically in any way "at fault," it doesn't change that it feels that way.
Because OP doesn't have the same range of social familiarity of other people of a comparable age, it may seem even more intimidating, but that's part of the problem. There is no guidebook everybody else got at some point that was missed out on. Everybody has different experiences, awarenesses, reactions, etc. Anyone is capable of anxiety, which is all about the unknown. The way to deal with it is to make it known. As the OP is in better shape now, she is better able to deal with it as she knows it's a problem.
I wrote these long stories, one about a bad therapist who gossiped about a patient to another, and one about a person in a position of authority who had a tantrum. The former was not really of consequence, luckily, but the latter was drastically damaging (and also dismissed, while this wasn't known until far after the fact) because the latter happened at a very fragile point.
The situation at the time of the incident is what matters more than the incident. The situation was the problem, not the incident. Preventing that situation from recurring is more important that avoiding repeats of the incident. Seeking therapy is not always going to be like that but feeling as afraid and alone may make interacting with the unknown as traumatic.
posted by provoliminal at 7:19 AM on October 3, 2014
Because OP doesn't have the same range of social familiarity of other people of a comparable age, it may seem even more intimidating, but that's part of the problem. There is no guidebook everybody else got at some point that was missed out on. Everybody has different experiences, awarenesses, reactions, etc. Anyone is capable of anxiety, which is all about the unknown. The way to deal with it is to make it known. As the OP is in better shape now, she is better able to deal with it as she knows it's a problem.
I wrote these long stories, one about a bad therapist who gossiped about a patient to another, and one about a person in a position of authority who had a tantrum. The former was not really of consequence, luckily, but the latter was drastically damaging (and also dismissed, while this wasn't known until far after the fact) because the latter happened at a very fragile point.
The situation at the time of the incident is what matters more than the incident. The situation was the problem, not the incident. Preventing that situation from recurring is more important that avoiding repeats of the incident. Seeking therapy is not always going to be like that but feeling as afraid and alone may make interacting with the unknown as traumatic.
posted by provoliminal at 7:19 AM on October 3, 2014
The co-worker finding the OP creepy would also involve the therapist going into a level of detail I find hard to imagine.
Maybe not. As acidic points out:
Your co-worker was probably weirded out by this request since she didn't know who was asking. Suffice to say, there's probably at least one person in everyone's workplace with whom they'd rather not share a therapist!
Your co-worker's potential feelings are relevant only insofar as they may help you to feel sympathy for your now-ex-co-worker's former self. Please note I'm not suggesting you have any kind of ethical duty to sympathize with her! Just that it may help you to feel more comfortable, when your paths intersect, if you bear in mind that she was also feeling in need of therapy, and was also apparently made to feel (thanks, Mr. Dubiously Qualified Therapist!) that her therapeutic relationship might become unsafe. (For all we know, she stopped getting along so well with DQT, due to the clunky way he handled things.) So both you and Former Co-Worker were doing your best to protect your threatened emotional safety -- her predicament was almost certainly far milder than yours, but we don't know how she experienced it, and she had no way to know how your needs compared to hers. (Hell, maybe if she had known your situation, or if she had known your identity, she would have chosen differently.)
posted by feral_goldfish at 9:05 AM on October 3, 2014
Maybe not. As acidic points out:
Your co-worker was probably weirded out by this request since she didn't know who was asking. Suffice to say, there's probably at least one person in everyone's workplace with whom they'd rather not share a therapist!
Your co-worker's potential feelings are relevant only insofar as they may help you to feel sympathy for your now-ex-co-worker's former self. Please note I'm not suggesting you have any kind of ethical duty to sympathize with her! Just that it may help you to feel more comfortable, when your paths intersect, if you bear in mind that she was also feeling in need of therapy, and was also apparently made to feel (thanks, Mr. Dubiously Qualified Therapist!) that her therapeutic relationship might become unsafe. (For all we know, she stopped getting along so well with DQT, due to the clunky way he handled things.) So both you and Former Co-Worker were doing your best to protect your threatened emotional safety -- her predicament was almost certainly far milder than yours, but we don't know how she experienced it, and she had no way to know how your needs compared to hers. (Hell, maybe if she had known your situation, or if she had known your identity, she would have chosen differently.)
posted by feral_goldfish at 9:05 AM on October 3, 2014
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I think the one problematic aspect is that your therapist got upset with you. That is very unprofessional, and I'm sorry it had such a negative impact on you. But please know that you did absolutely nothing wrong. It's not your responsibility to know all the rules about everything in the world.
posted by lunasol at 9:02 PM on October 1, 2014 [24 favorites]