Perspective on the idea of "growing apart" in a long term commitment?
September 27, 2014 3:37 PM Subscribe
I recently started seeing someone new, who happens to be the first person I've dated who's divorced. When he told me that he was divorced, he said they "grew apart," after over a decade of marriage, though he also indicated that his ex-wife didn't feel that way, and didn't want to get divorced. I had the sense (though this was a brief conversation, and we're just getting to know each other) that he didn't necessarily *try* to fix things.
I've never been married, though have had several long relationships. I don't feel any particular pressure to get married, and I don't want kids, but I have always liked the idea of making a lifelong commitment to someone. Partly it's as simple as the fact that I would like to grow old with someone next to me who's known me a long time, but on a more fundamental level I think there's personal growth and satisfaction that can come from serious commitment that can't come from a relationship you feel you can easily leave.
I'm looking for perspective on the idea that "growing apart" is a good reason to leave a marriage. This is something I'll eventually talk to him about if the relationship progresses, but I would like to hear from others what you think about the idea. Obviously, relationships are complicated. But I wonder if it's a bad idea for someone with my desire for a "for better, for worse" commitment to pursue things with someone who has a different view on when it's okay to leave. And if we did, in the future, end up together, how would I feel comfortable trusting that he won't eventually leave me for similar reasons?
This is someone that, in other respects, I could really see a future with.
I've never been married, though have had several long relationships. I don't feel any particular pressure to get married, and I don't want kids, but I have always liked the idea of making a lifelong commitment to someone. Partly it's as simple as the fact that I would like to grow old with someone next to me who's known me a long time, but on a more fundamental level I think there's personal growth and satisfaction that can come from serious commitment that can't come from a relationship you feel you can easily leave.
I'm looking for perspective on the idea that "growing apart" is a good reason to leave a marriage. This is something I'll eventually talk to him about if the relationship progresses, but I would like to hear from others what you think about the idea. Obviously, relationships are complicated. But I wonder if it's a bad idea for someone with my desire for a "for better, for worse" commitment to pursue things with someone who has a different view on when it's okay to leave. And if we did, in the future, end up together, how would I feel comfortable trusting that he won't eventually leave me for similar reasons?
This is someone that, in other respects, I could really see a future with.
I always wanted to get married. I stood in front of my friends and family and I made that "for better, for worse" commitment that you are longing for, to a man that I loved more than the world. We grew apart. There were no significant issues in the relationship, and my husband very much did not want to get divorced or give up on the life we built together and the future we planned for. Yet... we grew apart, and I left. We're still good friends, and it still hurts.
Nobody here knows how your boyfriend feels. Perhaps he still wants that lifelong commitment but he just chose the wrong person the first time around (that's not the case for me – I have found happiness with someone else now, but I will never again pretend that I can predict the future, and I will never get married again)? You should talk to him about it.
posted by halogen at 3:57 PM on September 27, 2014 [6 favorites]
Nobody here knows how your boyfriend feels. Perhaps he still wants that lifelong commitment but he just chose the wrong person the first time around (that's not the case for me – I have found happiness with someone else now, but I will never again pretend that I can predict the future, and I will never get married again)? You should talk to him about it.
posted by halogen at 3:57 PM on September 27, 2014 [6 favorites]
I think xingcat is right, but it's also might be helpful to know whether he would affirm the idea that sometimes love is a commitment as much as a feeling, and sometimes vows mean that things don't always feel great, or you don't always feel affection, sometimes for periods of time. That would be his thing of course, but it might not be - and doesn't have to be - your thing, if you are on different pages.
Of course, we can't get in the mind of your SO, so it might be worth having a conversation with him, asking specifically: under what conditions do you think it's okay to leave a relationship, and under which conditions do you keep trying, even though it's difficult? It's certainly worth having a discussion like this, no matter what his personal history looks like.
This is my baggage perhaps, but if I knew that someone had a history of leaving a relationship because that person felt like they were growing apart with someone, it would make me pretty jumpy when hitting those inevitable down times in a relationship. Because every couple deals with that at some time or another. It's not necessarily a deal breaker at face value, but it would be really helpful to know what his mode of dealing with those times is as just a matter of healthy communication.
posted by SpacemanStix at 3:58 PM on September 27, 2014 [10 favorites]
Of course, we can't get in the mind of your SO, so it might be worth having a conversation with him, asking specifically: under what conditions do you think it's okay to leave a relationship, and under which conditions do you keep trying, even though it's difficult? It's certainly worth having a discussion like this, no matter what his personal history looks like.
This is my baggage perhaps, but if I knew that someone had a history of leaving a relationship because that person felt like they were growing apart with someone, it would make me pretty jumpy when hitting those inevitable down times in a relationship. Because every couple deals with that at some time or another. It's not necessarily a deal breaker at face value, but it would be really helpful to know what his mode of dealing with those times is as just a matter of healthy communication.
posted by SpacemanStix at 3:58 PM on September 27, 2014 [10 favorites]
I got married at 19 to another 19 year old. We were married a bit over 22 years. Our divorce was amicable. It would not be inaccurate to say we "grew apart." Naturally, if you dig around in the details, there are some less nice things I could say as well, which would also be as accurate.
My ex and I were both individuals with serious issues when we met. I think the marriage helped us each improve in some important ways. I kind of feel like we were strong medicine for each other and, like with any medicine, once we were better, it wasn't good for us anymore to keep trying to take it. We both grew healthier because of the marriage and then didn't really need each other anymore and weren't really compatible anymore.
Of course, there was a particular crisis which prompted the divorce. I could also cite that as The Reason for the divorce. But when a relationship has lasted a long time before ending, I think it is often (perhaps usually) the case that some pithy one sentence explanation really does not do it justice. Saying "It's complicated" is even less information than saying "We grew apart."
You should, perhaps, watch a few romantic comedies. Inevitably, they all seem to contain some revelation of some "secret" that makes one party feel lied to or betrayed. The circumstances in which the individual became misled are almost always innocent. There was usually no intent to lie to them or deceive them, or, if there is, it is extremely understandable for some reason. The one that comes readily to mind is "Shrek" where he overhears Fiona saying something like "Ogre and princess don't go together" and he thinks she is talking about him in a rejecting or judgmental way when she is really talking about the curse that turns her into an ogre an at night. At the time that she says this and he overhears it, it is still a secret that has not been divulged to him. She has good reasons for keeping her curse a secret.
We all have things about ourselves that are a big deal to divulge. It is typical to play our cards close to our chest over those sorts of things when we first meet someone.
I suggest you reserve judgment for now. If you just met him, you likely cannot know enough at this time to draw any meaningful conclusions about what this might mean for the potential future of your relationship to him.
posted by Michele in California at 3:59 PM on September 27, 2014 [6 favorites]
My ex and I were both individuals with serious issues when we met. I think the marriage helped us each improve in some important ways. I kind of feel like we were strong medicine for each other and, like with any medicine, once we were better, it wasn't good for us anymore to keep trying to take it. We both grew healthier because of the marriage and then didn't really need each other anymore and weren't really compatible anymore.
Of course, there was a particular crisis which prompted the divorce. I could also cite that as The Reason for the divorce. But when a relationship has lasted a long time before ending, I think it is often (perhaps usually) the case that some pithy one sentence explanation really does not do it justice. Saying "It's complicated" is even less information than saying "We grew apart."
You should, perhaps, watch a few romantic comedies. Inevitably, they all seem to contain some revelation of some "secret" that makes one party feel lied to or betrayed. The circumstances in which the individual became misled are almost always innocent. There was usually no intent to lie to them or deceive them, or, if there is, it is extremely understandable for some reason. The one that comes readily to mind is "Shrek" where he overhears Fiona saying something like "Ogre and princess don't go together" and he thinks she is talking about him in a rejecting or judgmental way when she is really talking about the curse that turns her into an ogre an at night. At the time that she says this and he overhears it, it is still a secret that has not been divulged to him. She has good reasons for keeping her curse a secret.
We all have things about ourselves that are a big deal to divulge. It is typical to play our cards close to our chest over those sorts of things when we first meet someone.
I suggest you reserve judgment for now. If you just met him, you likely cannot know enough at this time to draw any meaningful conclusions about what this might mean for the potential future of your relationship to him.
posted by Michele in California at 3:59 PM on September 27, 2014 [6 favorites]
I agree with xingcat, I would interpret "We grew apart" as a polite non answer. I'm sure the details of why they broke up will be divulged as time goes on, but it sounds like the real reason may be messy and unpleasant (I'm not saying infidelity necessarily, just difficult in general) and he doesn't want to get into it yet.
Also, I think it may be a little ungenerous to characterize someone that was in a decade+ relationship as lacking the ability to commit.
posted by whoaali at 4:03 PM on September 27, 2014 [15 favorites]
Also, I think it may be a little ungenerous to characterize someone that was in a decade+ relationship as lacking the ability to commit.
posted by whoaali at 4:03 PM on September 27, 2014 [15 favorites]
I second Michele, but you could also try asking him specifically "what that might mean for the potential future of your relationship with him". If you see a future with him, be honest and tell him so. That's a conversation you must have before someone gets hurt because they had other intentions. Same as miscommunication and misperception in moving in together. Some people think it's a stepping stone to greater commitment and others think it's more financial and 'don't rock the boat' kinda thing. 10 years? Does he think he would ever get married again or want to? Do you? Have you discussed deal-breakers? Are you both serious about the relationship? It's better to know, than guess. And why waste time if you're not on the same page?
posted by lunastellasol at 4:08 PM on September 27, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by lunastellasol at 4:08 PM on September 27, 2014 [1 favorite]
The person you choose at twenty is very different from the one you'd choose at thirty, etcetera. You either grow together or you grow apart.
posted by Mr. Yuck at 4:10 PM on September 27, 2014 [11 favorites]
posted by Mr. Yuck at 4:10 PM on September 27, 2014 [11 favorites]
Seconding that it's a polite answer, and that's a good thing. He didn't blame her or call her names. He's not exposing her private life to someone he recently met. It's possible he is the bad guy and doesn't want to place blame on himself, but if he were truly awful, he'd just lie and blame it on her anyway.
didn't necessarily *try* to fix things
This is a little unfair at this stage. You don't know him that well, and you don't know the intimacies of their marriage at all. No one on the outside ever does.
Fortune cookie says: You will soon have an insightful discussion with someone close to you.
posted by sageleaf at 4:21 PM on September 27, 2014 [11 favorites]
didn't necessarily *try* to fix things
This is a little unfair at this stage. You don't know him that well, and you don't know the intimacies of their marriage at all. No one on the outside ever does.
Fortune cookie says: You will soon have an insightful discussion with someone close to you.
posted by sageleaf at 4:21 PM on September 27, 2014 [11 favorites]
You say yourself you're still in the beginning stages of your relationship. "We grew apart" is the best possible answer he could give you now. At some point in the future, when you are at the stage where you show each other all the warts, you will come to know the whole story. Until then you really can't draw any conclusions about what happened, how he handled it, or what it might mean about his character.
[But if it makes you feel better, an anecdote: I am my husband's second wife. I know the details of his divorce, they were deeply in love for many years, and they grew apart as their twenties came to an end. There is nothing in the history that makes me doubt my husband's ability to commit to me -- if anything, to be honest, he's even more committed than I am, if for no other reason than that he really, really does not want another divorce.]
posted by fingersandtoes at 4:30 PM on September 27, 2014 [1 favorite]
[But if it makes you feel better, an anecdote: I am my husband's second wife. I know the details of his divorce, they were deeply in love for many years, and they grew apart as their twenties came to an end. There is nothing in the history that makes me doubt my husband's ability to commit to me -- if anything, to be honest, he's even more committed than I am, if for no other reason than that he really, really does not want another divorce.]
posted by fingersandtoes at 4:30 PM on September 27, 2014 [1 favorite]
I feel like my parents grew apart. They met in college and married shortly after graduation, and then for various reasons, roughly 7-8 years later, they stopped really talking or maintaining any sort of relationship other than the bare minimum required to raise children and maintain a semblance of family. By the time my dad finally moved out, about 12 years after that, they had grown apart so far that I had no idea how they could ever have gotten together in the first place, as they seemed to have zero compatibility and didn't even really like each other. I tried not to show it to avoid hurting my mom, but I was so relieved when they announced he was leaving. From later conversations I'm pretty sure that he had intentionally chosen not to leave prior to that for "marriage vows" kinds of reasons, and when he did eventually leave it was due to a mental breakdown. So, that's the kind of thing I think of when I hear about relationships "growing apart".
And if that's the kind of thing that he's talking about (which, there's no guarantee it is), then I think the more important thing, rather than worrying if that is a qualification for leaving, would be determining how/why he/they let it get to that point in the first place. Relationships are work (I don't mean that in the tedious "chore" kind of way), and I think the less work you do the easier it is to grow apart.
posted by agress at 4:50 PM on September 27, 2014 [3 favorites]
And if that's the kind of thing that he's talking about (which, there's no guarantee it is), then I think the more important thing, rather than worrying if that is a qualification for leaving, would be determining how/why he/they let it get to that point in the first place. Relationships are work (I don't mean that in the tedious "chore" kind of way), and I think the less work you do the easier it is to grow apart.
posted by agress at 4:50 PM on September 27, 2014 [3 favorites]
The way I see it, you have no information here on which to make any judgement call at all. Blaming him for leaving a marriage in which they grew apart is as ridiculous as if he were to blame you for not being able to make of your long term relationships stick. Every relationship fails (for want of a better word) until one doesn't. As you know already, sometimes things just don't work out. Unless you have more concrete information to go on, abuse, cheating etc, I would reserve judgement until you know him better.
posted by Jubey at 4:54 PM on September 27, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by Jubey at 4:54 PM on September 27, 2014 [1 favorite]
Pay no attention to this "grew apart" remark. It's short-hand or just vague, and you shouldn't read into it at all. When you and this new guy know each other better, he may trust you more and open up. Right now, it's appropriate to ask him if he's open to a long-term relationship. It's okay to tell him you like the idea of having a life partner.
But don't be speculating right now about whether he'd be a good husband for you. Wait and see how the two of you handle disagreements and differences, and misunderstandings. Find out if honesty is equally important to both of you. Take time to learn whether he'll treat you as he'd like to be treated, and vice-versa.
posted by wryly at 4:56 PM on September 27, 2014 [5 favorites]
But don't be speculating right now about whether he'd be a good husband for you. Wait and see how the two of you handle disagreements and differences, and misunderstandings. Find out if honesty is equally important to both of you. Take time to learn whether he'll treat you as he'd like to be treated, and vice-versa.
posted by wryly at 4:56 PM on September 27, 2014 [5 favorites]
The trouble with "grew apart" is that it covers so much ground. A friend of mine is currently getting divorced because she and her husband "grew apart", but from watching them I know the husband made little effort to make it work and basically wanted to give up from the get-go. HOWEVER. "Grew apart" can also mean:
- We married so young that we didn't really know each other, or our own selves.
- One partner changed in some dramatic way, leaving Partner 2 feeling like this was not the person they married.
- Both partners changed and decided together that they would be better apart.
- etc.
So I wouldn't assume. And, heck, even if it is the first situation, even if he didn't "try" to save the marriage . . . that doesn't mean the marriage wasn't still broken. Separating is often better in the long run.
posted by chainsofreedom at 5:29 PM on September 27, 2014 [3 favorites]
- We married so young that we didn't really know each other, or our own selves.
- One partner changed in some dramatic way, leaving Partner 2 feeling like this was not the person they married.
- Both partners changed and decided together that they would be better apart.
- etc.
So I wouldn't assume. And, heck, even if it is the first situation, even if he didn't "try" to save the marriage . . . that doesn't mean the marriage wasn't still broken. Separating is often better in the long run.
posted by chainsofreedom at 5:29 PM on September 27, 2014 [3 favorites]
"Grew apart" could mean, "we had issues that could have been resolved, but I wasn't committed enough to put in the work." "Grew apart" could also mean any number of things that your new beau might not have wanted to talk about, for fear of ruining your date by interjecting a depressing or upsetting subject into your otherwise enjoyable time together. It could mean, "she was viciously abusive and beat me and I was afraid for my life." It could mean, "she cheated on me." It could mean, "I cheated on her, and it was a terrible mistake, and I'm ashamed of myself for it, but she couldn't forgive me, and I couldn't live with someone who constantly blamed me for all the problems in our marriage." It could mean, "I found out after we got married that she has a scat fetish, and I wasn't willing to participate." It could mean, "She has a severe mental illness that she's in denial about and refused to get treatment for, and I couldn't live like that anymore." It could mean, "I wanted kids, and she decided that she didn't," or vice-versa. It could mean any number of things. The only way to find out what "grew apart" meant when this particular person used it is to spend enough time with him and get close enough to him that you feel comfortable asking.
posted by decathecting at 5:49 PM on September 27, 2014 [4 favorites]
posted by decathecting at 5:49 PM on September 27, 2014 [4 favorites]
I agree with what others have said, and also want to add something I have to remind myself of frequently: the end/"failure" of one relationship (even a significant one, like a marriage) does not necessarily mean the person is bad at relationships or unworthy of trust or commitment. More commonly, it means two people weren't the best partners for one another anymore and that that relationship wasn't working anymore.
posted by pril at 6:18 PM on September 27, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by pril at 6:18 PM on September 27, 2014 [1 favorite]
Have to add, you CHOOSE to grow together or grow apart... and if only one person is choosing to grow as a couple, there's not a darn thing that they can do if the other one chooses not to. It takes two to make it work, but only one to break it. Often that's the person who doesn't see it as a permanent commitment, but as a "committed as long as it isn't hard".
To each their own, I suppose, but when beliefs about what commitment means really differ, it make it tough to weather hardships - because often that means to one person, it's time to work through them, and to the other, it's time to move on.
It would make me wary... but then, I've already experienced a relationship like that, and I have no real interest in doing it again.
posted by stormyteal at 9:41 PM on September 27, 2014 [4 favorites]
To each their own, I suppose, but when beliefs about what commitment means really differ, it make it tough to weather hardships - because often that means to one person, it's time to work through them, and to the other, it's time to move on.
It would make me wary... but then, I've already experienced a relationship like that, and I have no real interest in doing it again.
posted by stormyteal at 9:41 PM on September 27, 2014 [4 favorites]
I agree with stormyteal. When you think about how much you change from your 20 to your 30s or 40s it seems like "growing apart" should be the natural state of things. Figuring out how to stay together is work, it doesn't just happen. If both partners aren't willing to work at it, the relationship eventually falters.
posted by COD at 6:08 AM on September 28, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by COD at 6:08 AM on September 28, 2014 [2 favorites]
"We grew apart" is what I tell people about me and my ex. And it's mostly true - over a decade, that's bound to happen, and it did for us. We tried to fix things for a few years, and couldn't (or didn't want to), and so we chose to move on. The details are the smaller, intimate things that are between her and I. My current SO knows most of it, as do some of my closest friends, and I'm sure the person she's with knows some of it too, but to my family, to anyone I've just met? It's the easiest way to answer the question.
Whether or not his ex wanted a divorce doesn't necessarily reflect on his character. If she was blindsided by it, yeah, sure, that'd be a red flag - but one doesn't equal the other. Divorce means change (and expense), and there are plenty of people who stay married because it's easier to go with what you already have than start new. She may have wanted to keep things as they were, even if she was unhappy. If that's the case, good on him for recognizing that he needed to move on.
As for the "for better or for worse" part? I was very firmly in the "this is for the rest of my life, full stop" camp. That determination to stick it out no matter what is what held me up through three years of trying to fix things. In the end, though, I'm glad I didn't stick it out. A lifetime of unhappiness wasn't worth it for me.
posted by okayokayigive at 7:31 AM on September 28, 2014 [1 favorite]
Whether or not his ex wanted a divorce doesn't necessarily reflect on his character. If she was blindsided by it, yeah, sure, that'd be a red flag - but one doesn't equal the other. Divorce means change (and expense), and there are plenty of people who stay married because it's easier to go with what you already have than start new. She may have wanted to keep things as they were, even if she was unhappy. If that's the case, good on him for recognizing that he needed to move on.
As for the "for better or for worse" part? I was very firmly in the "this is for the rest of my life, full stop" camp. That determination to stick it out no matter what is what held me up through three years of trying to fix things. In the end, though, I'm glad I didn't stick it out. A lifetime of unhappiness wasn't worth it for me.
posted by okayokayigive at 7:31 AM on September 28, 2014 [1 favorite]
"We grew apart" + "my ex didn't feel that way" is code for "I thought I could do better."
Or, "I thought she let herself go downhill."
You know a "good" divorce when you see it. It's when they talk about each other in solid, straightforward terms that point to truly irreconcilable problems. They may or may not be friends, but they can point to actual reasons and different values/desires. "I wanted kids, she worked too much, etc."
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 10:15 AM on September 28, 2014 [2 favorites]
Or, "I thought she let herself go downhill."
You know a "good" divorce when you see it. It's when they talk about each other in solid, straightforward terms that point to truly irreconcilable problems. They may or may not be friends, but they can point to actual reasons and different values/desires. "I wanted kids, she worked too much, etc."
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 10:15 AM on September 28, 2014 [2 favorites]
I "grew apart" from someone.
It's a lot more complicated than that. It's a long ugly story, one I don't like reliving, one that if I told a new girlfriend I'd come off as a weirdo obsessed with his old relationship because I just told a 2+ hour story about someone I haven't seen in a decade.
So I just say "we grew apart" because it's close enough.
posted by French Fry at 11:43 AM on September 28, 2014 [6 favorites]
It's a lot more complicated than that. It's a long ugly story, one I don't like reliving, one that if I told a new girlfriend I'd come off as a weirdo obsessed with his old relationship because I just told a 2+ hour story about someone I haven't seen in a decade.
So I just say "we grew apart" because it's close enough.
posted by French Fry at 11:43 AM on September 28, 2014 [6 favorites]
"We grew apart" + "my ex didn't feel that way" is code for "I thought I could do better."
I'd say it's a bit more complicated than what Cool Papa Bell said in that I've known people who are in an asymmetrical relationship where they did grow apart, they did go to relationship counseling, and gave everything a good effort but one spouse still thought it was worth sticking with. Usually it's a difference in expectation for physical or emotional intimacy or communication where one person has changed what they want and the other thinks things are fine and has no intention of meeting them.
I don't know, maybe it is "doing better" but that phrase is so front-loaded with the idea that there's a judgment that there are "better people" and not just better matches.
posted by mikeh at 7:54 AM on September 29, 2014 [1 favorite]
I'd say it's a bit more complicated than what Cool Papa Bell said in that I've known people who are in an asymmetrical relationship where they did grow apart, they did go to relationship counseling, and gave everything a good effort but one spouse still thought it was worth sticking with. Usually it's a difference in expectation for physical or emotional intimacy or communication where one person has changed what they want and the other thinks things are fine and has no intention of meeting them.
I don't know, maybe it is "doing better" but that phrase is so front-loaded with the idea that there's a judgment that there are "better people" and not just better matches.
posted by mikeh at 7:54 AM on September 29, 2014 [1 favorite]
1.) In my experience, the person who says that says they divorced because they "grew apart" is likely hiding something unflattering about themselves. No one says things in such a vague, nondescript way if they are being honest.
2.) Anytime someone leads off a story with how young they were when they got married and that story ends in divorce, you can bet they are the ones that ended the relationship, either directly or indirectly.
posted by PsuDab93 at 1:55 PM on September 29, 2014
2.) Anytime someone leads off a story with how young they were when they got married and that story ends in divorce, you can bet they are the ones that ended the relationship, either directly or indirectly.
posted by PsuDab93 at 1:55 PM on September 29, 2014
I'm looking for perspective on the idea that "growing apart" is a good reason to leave a marriage.
A "good" reason? As opposed to a "bad" or "frivolous" or "selfish" reason to leave a marriage? No. I have no idea how to define anyone else's reasoning in the negative, OP, because we'll never have all the facts. If someone wants out, they want out - who am I to judge since I haven't walked a mile in their shoes? I mean there is a whole hell of a LOT of space between "good" and "bad" marriages. All I really know for sure is this: wanting to leave is enough. (Dear Sugar taught me that.)
I wonder if it's a bad idea for someone with my desire for a "for better, for worse" commitment to pursue things with someone who has a different view on when it's okay to leave.
Well, for starters, let's be real here: your future self absolutely would leave a marriage in certain circumstances. Sit for a moment and think of a few right now. The 4 A's: Abuse? Addiction? Adultery? Abandonment? Pretty much all right thinking/well-adjusted folks in those cases might have to eventually go. Are those "good" enough reasons for you?
Here's the thing you need to understand OP, sometimes folks don't completely hone the personal skill of being able to commit to one person for the rest of their life until they are closer to age 40 than 20, and have been, say, divorced themselves. Then they get a little bit better at picking more appropriate partners for them. They're a bit wiser now. Sometimes.
Sounds like you are afraid of this guy eventually leaving you, just because he left his first wife.
Here's what you need to figure out about this guy: do you like the person you are when you are together? Are you both bringing your authentic selves to this relationship? Does he seem fairly self-aware? Is he respectful and kind? Can he communicate like a grown-ass adult more often than not?
Unfortunately, the possibility of divorce is always a risk in any marriage - no matter what number wife/partner you are. There are never any guarantees. No path is ever free from risk, unfortunately.
posted by hush at 3:18 PM on September 29, 2014 [1 favorite]
A "good" reason? As opposed to a "bad" or "frivolous" or "selfish" reason to leave a marriage? No. I have no idea how to define anyone else's reasoning in the negative, OP, because we'll never have all the facts. If someone wants out, they want out - who am I to judge since I haven't walked a mile in their shoes? I mean there is a whole hell of a LOT of space between "good" and "bad" marriages. All I really know for sure is this: wanting to leave is enough. (Dear Sugar taught me that.)
I wonder if it's a bad idea for someone with my desire for a "for better, for worse" commitment to pursue things with someone who has a different view on when it's okay to leave.
Well, for starters, let's be real here: your future self absolutely would leave a marriage in certain circumstances. Sit for a moment and think of a few right now. The 4 A's: Abuse? Addiction? Adultery? Abandonment? Pretty much all right thinking/well-adjusted folks in those cases might have to eventually go. Are those "good" enough reasons for you?
Here's the thing you need to understand OP, sometimes folks don't completely hone the personal skill of being able to commit to one person for the rest of their life until they are closer to age 40 than 20, and have been, say, divorced themselves. Then they get a little bit better at picking more appropriate partners for them. They're a bit wiser now. Sometimes.
Sounds like you are afraid of this guy eventually leaving you, just because he left his first wife.
Here's what you need to figure out about this guy: do you like the person you are when you are together? Are you both bringing your authentic selves to this relationship? Does he seem fairly self-aware? Is he respectful and kind? Can he communicate like a grown-ass adult more often than not?
Unfortunately, the possibility of divorce is always a risk in any marriage - no matter what number wife/partner you are. There are never any guarantees. No path is ever free from risk, unfortunately.
posted by hush at 3:18 PM on September 29, 2014 [1 favorite]
Unfortunately, the possibility of divorce is always a risk in any marriage - no matter what number wife/partner you are. There are never any guarantees. No path is ever free from risk, unfortunately.
There are some attitudes that are brought into a relationship that influence at what point divorce is viewed at a viable option. Some of these factors come from prior experiences. It's so worth talking together about these things to see what possible past influences might be at play.
All I really know for sure is this: wanting to leave is enough. (Dear Sugar taught me that.)
I would work through this in a more nuanced way, though. In my relationship with my wife, I think it is emotionally healthy to know that the other person stays because they freely choose to do so, not because they have to, and even though marriage is a precious thing to be protected and fought for. There is a point though in which simply wanting to leave, on its own, isn't always enough justification. That's why perseverance and long-suffering can be virtues, if something good can come out of the other side. I'm not always sure where that line is drawn, but staying even though you want to leave can, at times, be a virtue.
OP, at the end of the day, it's probably about having a good conversation and seeing if your values and personal history match up in such a way that you can establish mutual trust in ways that are meaningful to each person.
posted by SpacemanStix at 2:03 PM on October 1, 2014
There are some attitudes that are brought into a relationship that influence at what point divorce is viewed at a viable option. Some of these factors come from prior experiences. It's so worth talking together about these things to see what possible past influences might be at play.
All I really know for sure is this: wanting to leave is enough. (Dear Sugar taught me that.)
I would work through this in a more nuanced way, though. In my relationship with my wife, I think it is emotionally healthy to know that the other person stays because they freely choose to do so, not because they have to, and even though marriage is a precious thing to be protected and fought for. There is a point though in which simply wanting to leave, on its own, isn't always enough justification. That's why perseverance and long-suffering can be virtues, if something good can come out of the other side. I'm not always sure where that line is drawn, but staying even though you want to leave can, at times, be a virtue.
OP, at the end of the day, it's probably about having a good conversation and seeing if your values and personal history match up in such a way that you can establish mutual trust in ways that are meaningful to each person.
posted by SpacemanStix at 2:03 PM on October 1, 2014
Here's the thing: memory is tricky business. In my experience, I tend to organize my memories into narratives, and I tend to do so in such a way that the memory is meaningful and relevant to my current lifeworld. What that means is that I might relate the same set of remembered facts very differently to both myself and others at one point in my life than I would in another.
If I go back and read emails I wrote about my ex-wife near the time of my divorce, they're filled with my anger and hurt, and they contain a lot of blame toward her. These days when I describe her and think of her, it's with much more perspective on my own agency in the breakdown of our marriage - that is, over time, with reflection, I have compassion for what she was going through and how she was hurt as well. That doesn't mean that my previous perspective is false - it just means that the story of the marriage and divorce I tell myself (and others) is now much more complex, because I need it to be more complex. When the divorce was happening, and for a year or two right after, I needed to be angry with her, for multiple reasons, the most obvious of them being that the anger kept her misbehavior forefront in my mind, which helped me have the courage to establish a life without her.
Now, almost eight years later, I don't need that motivation, and I need instead to love the part of myself that loved her and was married to her, so that means I'm free to see things from her point of view, and to forgive her, and forgive myself for my own bad behavior.
That's a LOT to tell anyone who asks about my divorce, especially a new romantic interest. "We grew apart" is one simple, and factually true way of saying the above - many people understand right away that I mean "shit was messy and we both hurt each other" when I say that.
A person's track record in maintaining previous relationships is always going to be a nearly-useless metric for measuring whether they're going to be a compatible, enjoyable, healthy partner for you. For one thing, unless the person has never been in a relationship before or is a widow(er), the one thing you can say about them will be that all their previous relationships have "failed."
Better metrics are: Do you like yourself when you're around this person? Do you find you have more energy and motivation to do the things you love and want to do? Do you find that communication with this person usually results in connection rather than distance? Do you want to jump this person's bones pretty much all the time? Does that person "look at you/ like maybe you are magic"? (hat tip to poet Marty McConnell for that last one).
posted by eustacescrubb at 11:14 AM on October 2, 2014 [3 favorites]
If I go back and read emails I wrote about my ex-wife near the time of my divorce, they're filled with my anger and hurt, and they contain a lot of blame toward her. These days when I describe her and think of her, it's with much more perspective on my own agency in the breakdown of our marriage - that is, over time, with reflection, I have compassion for what she was going through and how she was hurt as well. That doesn't mean that my previous perspective is false - it just means that the story of the marriage and divorce I tell myself (and others) is now much more complex, because I need it to be more complex. When the divorce was happening, and for a year or two right after, I needed to be angry with her, for multiple reasons, the most obvious of them being that the anger kept her misbehavior forefront in my mind, which helped me have the courage to establish a life without her.
Now, almost eight years later, I don't need that motivation, and I need instead to love the part of myself that loved her and was married to her, so that means I'm free to see things from her point of view, and to forgive her, and forgive myself for my own bad behavior.
That's a LOT to tell anyone who asks about my divorce, especially a new romantic interest. "We grew apart" is one simple, and factually true way of saying the above - many people understand right away that I mean "shit was messy and we both hurt each other" when I say that.
A person's track record in maintaining previous relationships is always going to be a nearly-useless metric for measuring whether they're going to be a compatible, enjoyable, healthy partner for you. For one thing, unless the person has never been in a relationship before or is a widow(er), the one thing you can say about them will be that all their previous relationships have "failed."
Better metrics are: Do you like yourself when you're around this person? Do you find you have more energy and motivation to do the things you love and want to do? Do you find that communication with this person usually results in connection rather than distance? Do you want to jump this person's bones pretty much all the time? Does that person "look at you/ like maybe you are magic"? (hat tip to poet Marty McConnell for that last one).
posted by eustacescrubb at 11:14 AM on October 2, 2014 [3 favorites]
Also: sorry for the double-post, but:
The fact that he and his ex would describe the reasons for the divorce differently and have radically different opinions on whether or not they'd grown apart is pretty convincing evidence that they grew apart. They're so far apart their perspectives on the same set of events are incredibly different.
posted by eustacescrubb at 11:24 AM on October 2, 2014
The fact that he and his ex would describe the reasons for the divorce differently and have radically different opinions on whether or not they'd grown apart is pretty convincing evidence that they grew apart. They're so far apart their perspectives on the same set of events are incredibly different.
posted by eustacescrubb at 11:24 AM on October 2, 2014
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