The sibling who molested me is getting ordained
September 20, 2014 5:56 AM Subscribe
I am a woman in my early 30’s. Starting when I was around 8, my older sister (who would have been 11) molested me. We have never talked about this. My parents know but are in denial. In high school, she became interested in religion and became a Christian, which has endured since then, and a few years ago she decided to attend seminary and become a minister. I have thought about all the complexities of this, but I am still not sure how best to proceed, if I proceed at all. I want whatever I do, if I do anything, to be healing (mostly for myself), fair, and considerate of all involved. I’m putting more information inside, and, while I can’t boil this down to a single question, would love any thoughts you have on this issue. I am posting anonymously, but if you’d like me to contact you for any reason, just say so and I will PM you from my real account.
Given that my sister was a child herself when she molested me, plus that we’re both female, I have long suspected that she herself was abused in childhood. However, she has never talked about it, and I don’t even have any hunches as to who might have been responsible. In adolescence, she became bulimic and later anorexic, which are other reasons I suspect abuse had happened. Initially when she sought out God and prayer, it was because she was hoping God could stop her eating disorders. She still very much deal with both bulimia and anorexia, plus she exercises for at least 2 hours a day, every day. She has never gone to therapy or any treatment, and that’s something I always thought about with her becoming a minister. (Not that clergy must be perfect, but that she has so many unexamined issues.)
She and I live 800 miles apart now, so I don’t see her very often. We talk and text, but she is very guarded about her private life. So everything in me wants to say that she would never hurt a child now, but I have to be honest and say I really don’t have any idea if she would or not. I know that she’s never attempted apologies or even a conversation about what she did to me.
I have thought about trying to have a “neutral” conversation with her, one in which I emphasize that I have compassion for her if she went through abuse herself. But I don’t think she’s in a place where she could even open this topic a tiny bit, no matter how I phrased it. Still, I keep thinking that if I belonged to a church (I am not Christian myself), I would be really uncomfortable knowing not only that my minister had done this, but that she’d never attempted to address the issue and own up to her part in it.
So I really don’t know what to do with all this. I am going to be working on this soon in therapy. I addressed this at length in therapy with a different counselor about a decade ago, but my current therapist, who I trust very much, feels that a lot of my issues are rooted in this abuse.
Thank you for reading this. I would love some advice about what conversation(s) to have, if any, and how best to approach them.
Given that my sister was a child herself when she molested me, plus that we’re both female, I have long suspected that she herself was abused in childhood. However, she has never talked about it, and I don’t even have any hunches as to who might have been responsible. In adolescence, she became bulimic and later anorexic, which are other reasons I suspect abuse had happened. Initially when she sought out God and prayer, it was because she was hoping God could stop her eating disorders. She still very much deal with both bulimia and anorexia, plus she exercises for at least 2 hours a day, every day. She has never gone to therapy or any treatment, and that’s something I always thought about with her becoming a minister. (Not that clergy must be perfect, but that she has so many unexamined issues.)
She and I live 800 miles apart now, so I don’t see her very often. We talk and text, but she is very guarded about her private life. So everything in me wants to say that she would never hurt a child now, but I have to be honest and say I really don’t have any idea if she would or not. I know that she’s never attempted apologies or even a conversation about what she did to me.
I have thought about trying to have a “neutral” conversation with her, one in which I emphasize that I have compassion for her if she went through abuse herself. But I don’t think she’s in a place where she could even open this topic a tiny bit, no matter how I phrased it. Still, I keep thinking that if I belonged to a church (I am not Christian myself), I would be really uncomfortable knowing not only that my minister had done this, but that she’d never attempted to address the issue and own up to her part in it.
So I really don’t know what to do with all this. I am going to be working on this soon in therapy. I addressed this at length in therapy with a different counselor about a decade ago, but my current therapist, who I trust very much, feels that a lot of my issues are rooted in this abuse.
Thank you for reading this. I would love some advice about what conversation(s) to have, if any, and how best to approach them.
I am so sorry. Rachel Held Evans has a series on abuse within churches that might provide some guidance and information for you on the matter. I think she has resources there for people involved in this issue who could give you better advice. A lot of the practical details if you decide to take steps depends on what denomination/church your sister is in.
Clergy do not have to be perfect, but they need to be people who can be trusted with the welfare and unasked for trust of many people, including children. It's like becoming a teacher - your job gives you access and authority to a lot of kids. Most teachers are regular or wonderful people, but it is a job that attracts creeps for those reasons.
If you feel - and trust yourself here - that this she has the potential to harm others and that you can and want to stop this, then talk with your therapist and maybe with some other support people in your life who can help you figure out what to do.
I have had and now in my personal and sometimes professional work deal with child on child sex abuse, and there's a spectrum of the effects. If it was a brief period of close in age experimentation that was framed as consensual by the children, the effects are usually neutral. A lot of people want to frame any child on child sexual activity as "playing doctor" benign and thus ignorable. However, it can definitely be coercive and cruel and depending on how the family treated the sexual activity, and the abuser, horrific and scarring.
You need to be prepared emotionally with your therapist's help for your sister, family members and other people to dismiss your experiences and hurt as an overreaction. I believe you that it was abuse. Memail me if you want to talk more.
You also need to separate out talking to your sister and getting some kind of answer or closure or change in your relationship with her, from the other aim of confirming that she will not be a danger to children in her new position. These two things may conflict.
posted by viggorlijah at 6:44 AM on September 20, 2014 [7 favorites]
Clergy do not have to be perfect, but they need to be people who can be trusted with the welfare and unasked for trust of many people, including children. It's like becoming a teacher - your job gives you access and authority to a lot of kids. Most teachers are regular or wonderful people, but it is a job that attracts creeps for those reasons.
If you feel - and trust yourself here - that this she has the potential to harm others and that you can and want to stop this, then talk with your therapist and maybe with some other support people in your life who can help you figure out what to do.
I have had and now in my personal and sometimes professional work deal with child on child sex abuse, and there's a spectrum of the effects. If it was a brief period of close in age experimentation that was framed as consensual by the children, the effects are usually neutral. A lot of people want to frame any child on child sexual activity as "playing doctor" benign and thus ignorable. However, it can definitely be coercive and cruel and depending on how the family treated the sexual activity, and the abuser, horrific and scarring.
You need to be prepared emotionally with your therapist's help for your sister, family members and other people to dismiss your experiences and hurt as an overreaction. I believe you that it was abuse. Memail me if you want to talk more.
You also need to separate out talking to your sister and getting some kind of answer or closure or change in your relationship with her, from the other aim of confirming that she will not be a danger to children in her new position. These two things may conflict.
posted by viggorlijah at 6:44 AM on September 20, 2014 [7 favorites]
I don't know what tradition this is, but as an anglican, i would go to the bishop with this, it's legitimate enough to prevent ordinaiton.
posted by PinkMoose at 6:44 AM on September 20, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by PinkMoose at 6:44 AM on September 20, 2014 [2 favorites]
I am so sorry for the abuse you experienced. Being molested by a relative at any age is upsetting and traumatic, and I admire your desire to have compassion for your sister given the degree to which she is still working through the abuse she may have suffered in such an extreme way. This is a sticky situation, but I agree with your gut and think you should enlist the help of your therapist to establish a game plan of how to deal with this. You are going to encounter people like neat graffitist as you attempt to alert the right entities to the reality of your sister's past and present behaviors, and you must be prepared to assert yourself against those who would minimize what happened to you as a way to undercut what you are revealing to them. I am saddened to hear that your parents aren't on your side -- though I wonder (and perhaps you do, too) who your sister's abuser was or still is. With the help of trusted advisors, would you be ready to confront them along with your sister? That may end up being a part of this process if you do elect to move forward. You have my support if you do. Sending you both love and hopes for peace and progress. You at not wrong for considering the ramifications your sister's ordainment could have on the people eventually in her care.
posted by Hermione Granger at 7:13 AM on September 20, 2014 [6 favorites]
posted by Hermione Granger at 7:13 AM on September 20, 2014 [6 favorites]
In some (mainline) denominations, there is a pretty intense psych testing/eval process (by licensed professionals) done as a condition of ordination. Maybe it would be helpful for you to inquire further (in general, from the denomination--I wouldn't necessarily approach your sister about this) about what screening mechanisms are already in place that she may have already gone through. (How effective these measures are is another debate, but you might feel better or at least more prepared to know where you stand on this if you had this information.)
This is a real conundrum you are in, with many layers to consider and great care to be taken. Find a therapist you trust to walk you through the pros and cons. Don't let any of the responses you get here make you second-guess yourself about having been triggered by the thought of her being placed in a (very family-like) position of trust and authority over the vulnerable.
posted by blue suede stockings at 7:38 AM on September 20, 2014 [6 favorites]
This is a real conundrum you are in, with many layers to consider and great care to be taken. Find a therapist you trust to walk you through the pros and cons. Don't let any of the responses you get here make you second-guess yourself about having been triggered by the thought of her being placed in a (very family-like) position of trust and authority over the vulnerable.
posted by blue suede stockings at 7:38 AM on September 20, 2014 [6 favorites]
I've been reading about children who sexually abuse other children, and the current thinking seems to be that adult, adolescent, and child offenders are actually very different in terms of why they abuse others and whether they'll continue to do so, with child offenders being much more likely to change.
None of which excuses or changes what she did to you, of course, but it may be helpful in evaluating how much of a threat she is herself to a congregation as an abuser. Her never having addressed her behavior with you, however, would lead me to believe she may be a very large threat in ignoring, dismissing, or minimizing the concerns of congregants who are being abused or who believe their children are being abused.
She is responsible for her behavior, and the church for her professional position. It may be helpful for you to talk to your therapist about whether confronting her at this time or somehow talking to the people ordaining/employing her would be helpful to you or retraumatizing. There can be a lot of pressure on survivors to "save" other victims, but her behavior is not your responsibility. Some survivors find that stepping in in such situations does feel empowering; others find that it brings with it more guilt and self-blame. Neither reaction is "right," they're just individual responses to specific situations.
The Courage To Heal has a good section on confronting abusers, in a way that encourages survivors to really think about what they want to accomplish and whether it's realistic. If you do want to confront her, there's a very high chance (just because there's always a very high chance) that she'll deny the abuse happened or minimize it, and then you'll be left with the same decision about whether to contact a church higher-up. It would probably be helpful to think through what (if anything) you want to say yourself, what you want her to say, and how you'll deal with it if she doesn't give you the reassurance you'd hope for.
posted by jaguar at 8:15 AM on September 20, 2014 [4 favorites]
None of which excuses or changes what she did to you, of course, but it may be helpful in evaluating how much of a threat she is herself to a congregation as an abuser. Her never having addressed her behavior with you, however, would lead me to believe she may be a very large threat in ignoring, dismissing, or minimizing the concerns of congregants who are being abused or who believe their children are being abused.
She is responsible for her behavior, and the church for her professional position. It may be helpful for you to talk to your therapist about whether confronting her at this time or somehow talking to the people ordaining/employing her would be helpful to you or retraumatizing. There can be a lot of pressure on survivors to "save" other victims, but her behavior is not your responsibility. Some survivors find that stepping in in such situations does feel empowering; others find that it brings with it more guilt and self-blame. Neither reaction is "right," they're just individual responses to specific situations.
The Courage To Heal has a good section on confronting abusers, in a way that encourages survivors to really think about what they want to accomplish and whether it's realistic. If you do want to confront her, there's a very high chance (just because there's always a very high chance) that she'll deny the abuse happened or minimize it, and then you'll be left with the same decision about whether to contact a church higher-up. It would probably be helpful to think through what (if anything) you want to say yourself, what you want her to say, and how you'll deal with it if she doesn't give you the reassurance you'd hope for.
posted by jaguar at 8:15 AM on September 20, 2014 [4 favorites]
I'm sorry this happened to you and your family.
I'm going to jump right in with some questions. It's seems clear to me that you want to know who molested your sister, which then directly lead to her abusing you. Do I have that right? I could be reading too much into your narrative.
Some questions I have for you today:
- Do you think your sister is a danger to other children?
- Do you think it will give you "closure" if you know what may or may not have happened to her?
- Do you think her calling to serve god and her choice to work as an ordained minister is somehow less valid than your work in therapy - like you have more "healing" done than she does?
- What's your best outcome?
-----
You don't mention how old you were when the abuse stopped. You don't mention how old you were when your parents found out, if the abuse stopped before or after they found out.
----
I know you have a pretty big story built up around what happened. It's the story of an 8 year old, tho. There's got to be so much more to it.
For example, perhaps no one ever told you directly, but is it possible your parents took steps to address what your sister did to you? Maybe at 8 years old they wanted to minimize your chances of focusing on or remembering the trauma, but maybe they did address it with your older sister?
Actually. I think that's possibly the overall issue.
This happened to you, but you were and are totally in the dark about why it happened, how your sister frames her actions now, if your parents perhaps secretly got your sister help -- it sounds like you were further victimized by all the secrecy and the silence.
I'm going to keep going as if I'm right - forgive/ignore me if I'm off the rails here. I'm just guessing what may be in play....
Long story short, from the secrecy perspective, your parents are more responsible and owe you more answers than your sister. Going directly to your sister, though, has the benefit of (possibly) getting you answers and clarity without blowing up your entire family dynamic.
You can start a conversation with your sister in person or by email. You could tell her that based on what happened, you think she was sexually abused as a child. Then you express compassion and see what she says.
If you're really really White Hot Angry, and that's what this is about...
Then the people you correctly confront first over all this are your parents, and not your sister. Especially if sweeping this under the rug has contributed significantly to the tragedy for you, personally. As the adults on duty at the time, they have a responsibility in this your 11 year old sister did not.
It's also possible that you'll find out your parents did not know the extent of the molestation, that your sister denied being hurt by anyone else. Your parents may have (mistankenly) thought you would have forgotten about it in time, that sweeping it under the rug was best for everyone. Who knows?
I don't think you should remain quiet, there are lots and lots of possibilities and variables.
Also, uh, if the reason you want to speak up is because you are down on religion, then you should maybe rethink your motivations and goals.
That your sister turned to religion instead of traditional therapy in the midst of her obvious pain is kinda none of your business. You might not be thinking this - but just in case - please understand that you can't fault your sister for the overall path she is taking towards healing. Just in case if you were thinking like this. OK.
If you are afraid that she's still a predator, then that is an entirely different AskMe.
posted by jbenben at 8:44 AM on September 20, 2014 [6 favorites]
I'm going to jump right in with some questions. It's seems clear to me that you want to know who molested your sister, which then directly lead to her abusing you. Do I have that right? I could be reading too much into your narrative.
Some questions I have for you today:
- Do you think your sister is a danger to other children?
- Do you think it will give you "closure" if you know what may or may not have happened to her?
- Do you think her calling to serve god and her choice to work as an ordained minister is somehow less valid than your work in therapy - like you have more "healing" done than she does?
- What's your best outcome?
-----
You don't mention how old you were when the abuse stopped. You don't mention how old you were when your parents found out, if the abuse stopped before or after they found out.
----
I know you have a pretty big story built up around what happened. It's the story of an 8 year old, tho. There's got to be so much more to it.
For example, perhaps no one ever told you directly, but is it possible your parents took steps to address what your sister did to you? Maybe at 8 years old they wanted to minimize your chances of focusing on or remembering the trauma, but maybe they did address it with your older sister?
Actually. I think that's possibly the overall issue.
This happened to you, but you were and are totally in the dark about why it happened, how your sister frames her actions now, if your parents perhaps secretly got your sister help -- it sounds like you were further victimized by all the secrecy and the silence.
I'm going to keep going as if I'm right - forgive/ignore me if I'm off the rails here. I'm just guessing what may be in play....
Long story short, from the secrecy perspective, your parents are more responsible and owe you more answers than your sister. Going directly to your sister, though, has the benefit of (possibly) getting you answers and clarity without blowing up your entire family dynamic.
You can start a conversation with your sister in person or by email. You could tell her that based on what happened, you think she was sexually abused as a child. Then you express compassion and see what she says.
If you're really really White Hot Angry, and that's what this is about...
Then the people you correctly confront first over all this are your parents, and not your sister. Especially if sweeping this under the rug has contributed significantly to the tragedy for you, personally. As the adults on duty at the time, they have a responsibility in this your 11 year old sister did not.
It's also possible that you'll find out your parents did not know the extent of the molestation, that your sister denied being hurt by anyone else. Your parents may have (mistankenly) thought you would have forgotten about it in time, that sweeping it under the rug was best for everyone. Who knows?
I don't think you should remain quiet, there are lots and lots of possibilities and variables.
Also, uh, if the reason you want to speak up is because you are down on religion, then you should maybe rethink your motivations and goals.
That your sister turned to religion instead of traditional therapy in the midst of her obvious pain is kinda none of your business. You might not be thinking this - but just in case - please understand that you can't fault your sister for the overall path she is taking towards healing. Just in case if you were thinking like this. OK.
If you are afraid that she's still a predator, then that is an entirely different AskMe.
posted by jbenben at 8:44 AM on September 20, 2014 [6 favorites]
I am sorry this happened to you and I hope you can find peace.
I really think that compassionate conversation idea you had is your best bet, and it's going to eat you up until you just do it. Write a letter if you have to. Nothing wrong with that. It would be best if you could visit her, but if you just can't bring yourself to say the words, write that letter. There will never be a good time to broach this topic.
Rather than approach the conversation with the worries for those in her care (legitimate though they may be), begin by talking about how you love her and have long wondered, given what she did to you when she was 11, her history of anorexia and so on, if she's okay--not "Are you fit to be a minister?" of course, but rather, "I have held this inside for so long and I can't anymore. I love you and I've been worried about you for a long time..." then tell her why you're worried about her. You don't have to ask if she was sexually abused. You could simply ask something like, "Did something happen to you?" or "Did someone hurt you?" or the like.
She will need to know that you love her and, if you do, that you forgive her. Most of all, she will need to know that she can trust you not to repeat anything she might tell you*. If she's got a secret she's kept for so long, chances are she's keeping the secret not only because she's ashamed, but perhaps too because she's protecting the abuser.
You need to be prepared for the response you might get. She might get angry. Or she might open up and you might hear some things that you don't want to believe yourself. Before you have this conversation, I hope you are prepared to stand by your sister and believe what she might tell you.
Finally, you will need to talk to her about your own pain at some point. That's only fair. My hope is that once you get her to open up, she will apologize for what she did. But remember she was a child, too. I think what jaguar wrote is true--child offenders are more likely to change. I think this is because children are most likely acting out something they experienced themselves, as you suspect.
*Unless you learn she's a danger to others--in which case she would hopefully put off the ministry and go into therapy before you have to go to someone else.
posted by katherant at 8:46 AM on September 20, 2014 [2 favorites]
I really think that compassionate conversation idea you had is your best bet, and it's going to eat you up until you just do it. Write a letter if you have to. Nothing wrong with that. It would be best if you could visit her, but if you just can't bring yourself to say the words, write that letter. There will never be a good time to broach this topic.
Rather than approach the conversation with the worries for those in her care (legitimate though they may be), begin by talking about how you love her and have long wondered, given what she did to you when she was 11, her history of anorexia and so on, if she's okay--not "Are you fit to be a minister?" of course, but rather, "I have held this inside for so long and I can't anymore. I love you and I've been worried about you for a long time..." then tell her why you're worried about her. You don't have to ask if she was sexually abused. You could simply ask something like, "Did something happen to you?" or "Did someone hurt you?" or the like.
She will need to know that you love her and, if you do, that you forgive her. Most of all, she will need to know that she can trust you not to repeat anything she might tell you*. If she's got a secret she's kept for so long, chances are she's keeping the secret not only because she's ashamed, but perhaps too because she's protecting the abuser.
You need to be prepared for the response you might get. She might get angry. Or she might open up and you might hear some things that you don't want to believe yourself. Before you have this conversation, I hope you are prepared to stand by your sister and believe what she might tell you.
Finally, you will need to talk to her about your own pain at some point. That's only fair. My hope is that once you get her to open up, she will apologize for what she did. But remember she was a child, too. I think what jaguar wrote is true--child offenders are more likely to change. I think this is because children are most likely acting out something they experienced themselves, as you suspect.
*Unless you learn she's a danger to others--in which case she would hopefully put off the ministry and go into therapy before you have to go to someone else.
posted by katherant at 8:46 AM on September 20, 2014 [2 favorites]
In case answers here are making you feel otherwise: You absolutely can be angry at your sister, you absolutely can hold her responsible, and you absolutely do not have to forgive her. You do not need to be her therapist; if she has issues around her own abuse, you are very likely not the right person for her to process those feelings with.
You can still love her and care about her, and all of the above is still true.
You may have already worked through that anger, and that's totally fine, too, but please do not let anyone (or yourself) rush you into forgiveness, because that's yet another way many survivors experience other people not honoring their feelings.
posted by jaguar at 8:52 AM on September 20, 2014 [13 favorites]
You can still love her and care about her, and all of the above is still true.
You may have already worked through that anger, and that's totally fine, too, but please do not let anyone (or yourself) rush you into forgiveness, because that's yet another way many survivors experience other people not honoring their feelings.
posted by jaguar at 8:52 AM on September 20, 2014 [13 favorites]
You are going to encounter people like neat graffitist as you attempt to alert the right entities to the reality of your sister's past and present behaviors, and you must be prepared to assert yourself against those who would minimize what happened to you
The answer this refers to was deleted, sorry if I phrased things insensitively. I'll try again. I absolutely did not mean to minimize the gravity or seriousness of what happened to you. You are right to be discussing this with your therapist and (I think) also right to want to confront your sister about it. The question is whether there's any reasonable basis for connecting it to her career choice.
You are not wrong for considering the ramifications your sister's ordainment could have on the people eventually in her care.
You're not wrong for considering it, but I think you'd be wrong to act on it in a way that could endanger her career as a minister.
You don't know for sure that your sister was molested. You certainly don't know that she's a potential child molester today. Unless there's more evidence than what you've given us, she probably is not. Again, that is not to question or downplay what she did to you. But they are separate questions.
I don't know what tradition this is, but as an anglican, i would go to the bishop with this, it's legitimate enough to prevent ordination.
You didn't say that you were considering this, but I hope you're not -- at least not without more evidence, and certainly not without talking to her first. This is a serious step that could really screw up her life. I wish I could say that I'd trust the church hierarchy not to overreact to a "tip" like this, and to handle it judiciously, but I really don't think I would. (And I was raised Anglican too, for what it's worth.)
posted by neat graffitist at 8:54 AM on September 20, 2014 [2 favorites]
The answer this refers to was deleted, sorry if I phrased things insensitively. I'll try again. I absolutely did not mean to minimize the gravity or seriousness of what happened to you. You are right to be discussing this with your therapist and (I think) also right to want to confront your sister about it. The question is whether there's any reasonable basis for connecting it to her career choice.
You are not wrong for considering the ramifications your sister's ordainment could have on the people eventually in her care.
You're not wrong for considering it, but I think you'd be wrong to act on it in a way that could endanger her career as a minister.
You don't know for sure that your sister was molested. You certainly don't know that she's a potential child molester today. Unless there's more evidence than what you've given us, she probably is not. Again, that is not to question or downplay what she did to you. But they are separate questions.
I don't know what tradition this is, but as an anglican, i would go to the bishop with this, it's legitimate enough to prevent ordination.
You didn't say that you were considering this, but I hope you're not -- at least not without more evidence, and certainly not without talking to her first. This is a serious step that could really screw up her life. I wish I could say that I'd trust the church hierarchy not to overreact to a "tip" like this, and to handle it judiciously, but I really don't think I would. (And I was raised Anglican too, for what it's worth.)
posted by neat graffitist at 8:54 AM on September 20, 2014 [2 favorites]
In case answers here are making you feel otherwise: You absolutely can be angry at your sister, you absolutely can hold her responsible, and you absolutely do not have to forgive her. You do not need to be her therapist; if she has issues around her own abuse, you are very likely not the right person for her to process those feelings with.
That is true. You have a right to be angry. My answer is the best idea I have to get her to open up, but jaguar's right--if she has issues around her abuse, she needs to be in therapy, not processing those feelings with you. You don't have to forgive her, but if you're not prepared to forgive her, or at least not for the foreseeable future, that's a completely different conversation. If you haven't processed your own anger and sadness over what she did to you (though it sounds like you are trying to) but you still feel you need to address it, you have every right.
posted by katherant at 9:20 AM on September 20, 2014 [2 favorites]
That is true. You have a right to be angry. My answer is the best idea I have to get her to open up, but jaguar's right--if she has issues around her abuse, she needs to be in therapy, not processing those feelings with you. You don't have to forgive her, but if you're not prepared to forgive her, or at least not for the foreseeable future, that's a completely different conversation. If you haven't processed your own anger and sadness over what she did to you (though it sounds like you are trying to) but you still feel you need to address it, you have every right.
posted by katherant at 9:20 AM on September 20, 2014 [2 favorites]
If she abused you when you were a child, she shouldn't be going into any line of work where she would be dealing with unsupervised children. I would approach the church authorities.
posted by Azara at 9:40 AM on September 20, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by Azara at 9:40 AM on September 20, 2014 [1 favorite]
I have thought about trying to have a “neutral” conversation with her, one in which I emphasize that I have compassion for her if she went through abuse herself. But I don’t think she’s in a place where she could even open this topic a tiny bit, no matter how I phrased it.
When I was in my teens and twenties, I spent a lot of time wanting to write a letter to someone who molested me, wanting to have some kind of conversation, etc. Ultimately, the way things worked out is that the individual made some amends to me in their own way and no such conversation ever occurred. At some point, I concluded that if such a conversation were to occur, it would need to be initiated by them. They would need to come to me to apologize. I concluded it would be a terrible mistake to go to them and announce that I had forgiven them or something like that.
And I am not sure that any conversation, regardless of who initiated, would be really meaningful. Abusive people routinely apologize, expect that to get them forgiveness, and then continue abusing the person they apologized to. My abuser stopped abusing me and made some amends. No, those amends don't fix the problems that the abuse caused. But they made a meaningful difference in my life in other areas. These days, I am okay with the fact that no such conversation ever occurred. I think it matters more that they made some kind of amends. Actions speak louder than words.
I think I had kind of a "best case" scenario. I think the person who abused me really regretted it and really tried to do right by me in some way and yet no "neutral" or compassionate conversation about what happened ever occurred. So I think hoping for such a conversation to A) occur and B) actually go well -- actually do something constructive and healing for you or her -- is pretty unrealistic. I think that's an extreme longshot of a bet.
For my own reasons, I have compassion for this person who abused me. So I have tried to not do anything to interfere with their life. And we mostly don't speak. So my feeling that they were also a victim and didn't really mean to hurt me -- and also made amends of some sort -- has guided my decision to just do my best to let it go. I think trying to discuss it would just re-open old wounds in a non-productive way.
I do understand your desire for this or your fantasy about this. I had that idea for a long time. And I thought telling them that I forgave them or that I felt they were also a victim or something would somehow be this positive thing, this idealistic thing, this "some kind of spiritual good came out of this crappy experience" type thing. But I see it differently these days and I think it's really, really unlikely that such a conversation would be at all helpful to you or anyone.
Still, I keep thinking that if I belonged to a church (I am not Christian myself), I would be really uncomfortable knowing not only that my minister had done this, but that she’d never attempted to address the issue and own up to her part in it.
I really like the suggestion above to find out more (not from your sister, but from some objective source) about the ordination process. It might also benefit you to read a bit more about pedophilia.
Recent things on the blue (here on metafilter -- or things I read related to that, maybe) have indicated that it doesn't get defined as pedophilia unless the age difference is at least 5 years and there are some other criteria. For that and other reasons, I will suggest that the situation you describe sounds hopeful to me as possibly a least-worst case scenario in terms of your sister may not be someone who is a particular danger to children at this point. I think for your own peace of mind, you should look at information that will help give you some idea as to whether or not it seems like your sister is likely to be a real danger.
I am not saying you shouldn't go to the church with this information. I am saying that I think having better information about a) the ordination process and b) what kinds of scenarios lead to lifelong abuse vs "well, damn, that was a tragedy, but they probably won't do it again" type situations, then it should be easier for you to make the decision one way or the other and feel as confident as possible that it's really the right decision. As it stands now, I think you are in an emotional place where you can't tell if the desire to tell the church is merely vindictive and you can't tell if the desire to not tell -- to be compassionate to your sister -- is irresponsible to other people. Greater information should help you decide whether or not to tell the church, and do so from a place of confidence that, whichever one you decide, it's the appropriate decision for the circumstances (or has high odds of being so -- nothing is ever 100% certain).
I will suggest that she may be wanting to be ordained as some kind of means to make up for her bad acts. That does not directly do anything for you, but I have known at least a couple of ministers who drank, did drugs, slept around, etc in youth and then got religion or felt the calling (to serve god, as a minister) and cleaned their life up. So if additional information clarifies for you that the church has a serious screening process in place AND that the pattern of abuse seems like she is unlikely to abuse again, I personally would be okay with saying to myself "Hey, she has her bag of rocks and I have mine and she is apparently trying to be a good person. Go in peace, sis, and best of luck." and then just get back to my own therapeutic process.
posted by Michele in California at 10:06 AM on September 20, 2014 [1 favorite]
When I was in my teens and twenties, I spent a lot of time wanting to write a letter to someone who molested me, wanting to have some kind of conversation, etc. Ultimately, the way things worked out is that the individual made some amends to me in their own way and no such conversation ever occurred. At some point, I concluded that if such a conversation were to occur, it would need to be initiated by them. They would need to come to me to apologize. I concluded it would be a terrible mistake to go to them and announce that I had forgiven them or something like that.
And I am not sure that any conversation, regardless of who initiated, would be really meaningful. Abusive people routinely apologize, expect that to get them forgiveness, and then continue abusing the person they apologized to. My abuser stopped abusing me and made some amends. No, those amends don't fix the problems that the abuse caused. But they made a meaningful difference in my life in other areas. These days, I am okay with the fact that no such conversation ever occurred. I think it matters more that they made some kind of amends. Actions speak louder than words.
I think I had kind of a "best case" scenario. I think the person who abused me really regretted it and really tried to do right by me in some way and yet no "neutral" or compassionate conversation about what happened ever occurred. So I think hoping for such a conversation to A) occur and B) actually go well -- actually do something constructive and healing for you or her -- is pretty unrealistic. I think that's an extreme longshot of a bet.
For my own reasons, I have compassion for this person who abused me. So I have tried to not do anything to interfere with their life. And we mostly don't speak. So my feeling that they were also a victim and didn't really mean to hurt me -- and also made amends of some sort -- has guided my decision to just do my best to let it go. I think trying to discuss it would just re-open old wounds in a non-productive way.
I do understand your desire for this or your fantasy about this. I had that idea for a long time. And I thought telling them that I forgave them or that I felt they were also a victim or something would somehow be this positive thing, this idealistic thing, this "some kind of spiritual good came out of this crappy experience" type thing. But I see it differently these days and I think it's really, really unlikely that such a conversation would be at all helpful to you or anyone.
Still, I keep thinking that if I belonged to a church (I am not Christian myself), I would be really uncomfortable knowing not only that my minister had done this, but that she’d never attempted to address the issue and own up to her part in it.
I really like the suggestion above to find out more (not from your sister, but from some objective source) about the ordination process. It might also benefit you to read a bit more about pedophilia.
Recent things on the blue (here on metafilter -- or things I read related to that, maybe) have indicated that it doesn't get defined as pedophilia unless the age difference is at least 5 years and there are some other criteria. For that and other reasons, I will suggest that the situation you describe sounds hopeful to me as possibly a least-worst case scenario in terms of your sister may not be someone who is a particular danger to children at this point. I think for your own peace of mind, you should look at information that will help give you some idea as to whether or not it seems like your sister is likely to be a real danger.
I am not saying you shouldn't go to the church with this information. I am saying that I think having better information about a) the ordination process and b) what kinds of scenarios lead to lifelong abuse vs "well, damn, that was a tragedy, but they probably won't do it again" type situations, then it should be easier for you to make the decision one way or the other and feel as confident as possible that it's really the right decision. As it stands now, I think you are in an emotional place where you can't tell if the desire to tell the church is merely vindictive and you can't tell if the desire to not tell -- to be compassionate to your sister -- is irresponsible to other people. Greater information should help you decide whether or not to tell the church, and do so from a place of confidence that, whichever one you decide, it's the appropriate decision for the circumstances (or has high odds of being so -- nothing is ever 100% certain).
I will suggest that she may be wanting to be ordained as some kind of means to make up for her bad acts. That does not directly do anything for you, but I have known at least a couple of ministers who drank, did drugs, slept around, etc in youth and then got religion or felt the calling (to serve god, as a minister) and cleaned their life up. So if additional information clarifies for you that the church has a serious screening process in place AND that the pattern of abuse seems like she is unlikely to abuse again, I personally would be okay with saying to myself "Hey, she has her bag of rocks and I have mine and she is apparently trying to be a good person. Go in peace, sis, and best of luck." and then just get back to my own therapeutic process.
posted by Michele in California at 10:06 AM on September 20, 2014 [1 favorite]
Wow, what a tough situation. I feel for you and I honour your impulse to try to protect others.
I mostly want to say...people who have been abused are in such a tough situation. We all get why the secrecy around abuse is terrible in terms of allowing abusers to abuse others (as well as other things) and yet it is so annoying that you need to carry not just your own pain and process but your knowledge forward into such complex situations. That sucks.
So...regardless of everything I just want to point out that your sister, whether abused (which would be awful for her too) or not in her past, bears responsibility now as an adult. Her choice to deal or not deal is hers. You are not responsible for her choices.
I agree you need professional support as you figure this out. Good luck.
posted by warriorqueen at 10:19 AM on September 20, 2014 [1 favorite]
I mostly want to say...people who have been abused are in such a tough situation. We all get why the secrecy around abuse is terrible in terms of allowing abusers to abuse others (as well as other things) and yet it is so annoying that you need to carry not just your own pain and process but your knowledge forward into such complex situations. That sucks.
So...regardless of everything I just want to point out that your sister, whether abused (which would be awful for her too) or not in her past, bears responsibility now as an adult. Her choice to deal or not deal is hers. You are not responsible for her choices.
I agree you need professional support as you figure this out. Good luck.
posted by warriorqueen at 10:19 AM on September 20, 2014 [1 favorite]
Almost all of what your wrote in your question is about your sister; almost none is about you. It's great that you're going to talk about it in therapy, and I suggest that you put your focus on yourself-- how you feel, what you want, and the balance between wanting to help and feeling responsible for fixing problems in someone else's life. This isn't a criticism at all, I promise.
She has never talked with you about the abuse she subjected you to. She was a kid as well, but that doesn't change the fact that her actions caused you confusion, turmoil, fear, and shame, and left you with an emotional burden that you continue to carry. You keep bringing it up with her, and she keeps avoiding it, plus she keeps you at arm's length about anything personal in her life. In therapy, bring out all of this before addressing whether you need to protect other people from her. You have to take care of yourself first.
posted by wryly at 10:37 AM on September 20, 2014 [1 favorite]
She has never talked with you about the abuse she subjected you to. She was a kid as well, but that doesn't change the fact that her actions caused you confusion, turmoil, fear, and shame, and left you with an emotional burden that you continue to carry. You keep bringing it up with her, and she keeps avoiding it, plus she keeps you at arm's length about anything personal in her life. In therapy, bring out all of this before addressing whether you need to protect other people from her. You have to take care of yourself first.
posted by wryly at 10:37 AM on September 20, 2014 [1 favorite]
Hey. I have some experience with this issue -- I've talked about it a bit here on MeFi, but would rather discuss privately if you feel comfortable. Please feel free to send me a MeFi Mail if you're interested in talking.
posted by brina at 3:06 PM on September 20, 2014
posted by brina at 3:06 PM on September 20, 2014
You don't know for sure that your sister was molested. You certainly don't know that she's a potential child molester today. Unless there's more evidence than what you've given us, she probably is not.
No one is qualified to say this. The OP knows she has molested one child. She was a child herself, yes, but not so young as to be unaware of her actions. It doesn't seem unreasonable to think she's more likely to molest a child than a randomly-selected person.
I'm not sure if the OP should speak to anyone, but blithe assurances that nothing is going to happen are wishful thinking at best.
posted by spaltavian at 5:47 PM on September 20, 2014 [3 favorites]
No one is qualified to say this. The OP knows she has molested one child. She was a child herself, yes, but not so young as to be unaware of her actions. It doesn't seem unreasonable to think she's more likely to molest a child than a randomly-selected person.
I'm not sure if the OP should speak to anyone, but blithe assurances that nothing is going to happen are wishful thinking at best.
posted by spaltavian at 5:47 PM on September 20, 2014 [3 favorites]
Your sister was 11 when she molested you and she's now in her mid-30s. What's she been doing in the past 20 years? Do you know? Has she been working with children? Do you have any reason to suspect that she's molested anyone since she was 11 years old? If not, then I don't think you have much reason to think she's going to molest children while in the ministry.
I understand your need to close this very painful chapter in your life, but personal experience leads me to believe that confronting your sister or tipping off the church will not bring you closure or pain relief but more sadness and anxiety instead.
She was eleven - and very possibly being molested herself. Or maybe not. How many times did it happen? I don't know anything, of course, but if it only happened a time or two, she may have had no idea that she was hurting you at all - at that age it's pretty common for curiosity about sexual things to emerge, sometimes dramatically.
If you report this to the church, you'll very likely ruin her future in the ministry. If you believe that's necessary, then that's what you have to do. But I agree that it's your parents who have the explaining to do more than your sister; again, she was 11, but your parents clearly didn' t take care of you as they should.
I wish you the best. I've had to put aside some pretty severe things from my past in order to keep them from destroying me and in the long run I'm glad I did. I don't think I would have accomplished anything at all by confronting those who beat me or raped me. For me, that's the best answer - it may not be for you. Again, I wish you the best.
posted by aryma at 7:11 PM on September 20, 2014 [2 favorites]
I understand your need to close this very painful chapter in your life, but personal experience leads me to believe that confronting your sister or tipping off the church will not bring you closure or pain relief but more sadness and anxiety instead.
She was eleven - and very possibly being molested herself. Or maybe not. How many times did it happen? I don't know anything, of course, but if it only happened a time or two, she may have had no idea that she was hurting you at all - at that age it's pretty common for curiosity about sexual things to emerge, sometimes dramatically.
If you report this to the church, you'll very likely ruin her future in the ministry. If you believe that's necessary, then that's what you have to do. But I agree that it's your parents who have the explaining to do more than your sister; again, she was 11, but your parents clearly didn' t take care of you as they should.
I wish you the best. I've had to put aside some pretty severe things from my past in order to keep them from destroying me and in the long run I'm glad I did. I don't think I would have accomplished anything at all by confronting those who beat me or raped me. For me, that's the best answer - it may not be for you. Again, I wish you the best.
posted by aryma at 7:11 PM on September 20, 2014 [2 favorites]
This thread is closed to new comments.
I'm not quite sure I understand why you want to open this up again with your sister -- it seems like you are confused as well by your motivations...? I think you know that having a "neutral" conversation is impossible: any dialogue will likely be painful for both of you. Think about why you want to do that.
If it's to help your own healing, that may be worthwhile, but it seems unlikely to me to offer much benefit. Definitely discuss that with your therapist.
If it's because you're concerned about how this will affect her job as a minster, or her faith as a Christian....not your responsibility. Full stop. It is admirable that you want to be considerate and fair, but you need to concentrate on yourself. And practically, with the distance between you and her guardedness, you truly know very little about her present life and mental state.
My advice is to concentrate on your own healing and let this go.
posted by pantarei70 at 6:40 AM on September 20, 2014 [2 favorites]