Alcoholism in the workplace - spousal intervention
September 11, 2014 3:16 PM Subscribe
My spouse is an alcoholic who is at best partially compliant with medication and treatment.
Today is the second day in a row spouse has not gone to work because of this. Spouse took off yesterday and was intoxicated when I got home. I've no doubt the same will happen tonight. We're in couples counseling and I'm in individual therapy. While progress has been made in some areas, this is not one of them. Spouse has been at this job since May and has burned through over a week's worth of PTO at various times for the same reason. I know their boss and I want to call him and ask him to threaten a firing or some sort of action over this. Good knows all of my pleading and bargaining and threatening etc isn't doing a damn thing. Should I do this?
Today is the second day in a row spouse has not gone to work because of this. Spouse took off yesterday and was intoxicated when I got home. I've no doubt the same will happen tonight. We're in couples counseling and I'm in individual therapy. While progress has been made in some areas, this is not one of them. Spouse has been at this job since May and has burned through over a week's worth of PTO at various times for the same reason. I know their boss and I want to call him and ask him to threaten a firing or some sort of action over this. Good knows all of my pleading and bargaining and threatening etc isn't doing a damn thing. Should I do this?
Good knows all of my pleading and bargaining and threatening etc isn't doing a damn thing.
What makes you think spouse would then just be an active alcoholic with no job? What would keep the boss from just firing him instead of threatening to fire him?
posted by rtha at 3:22 PM on September 11, 2014 [4 favorites]
What makes you think spouse would then just be an active alcoholic with no job? What would keep the boss from just firing him instead of threatening to fire him?
posted by rtha at 3:22 PM on September 11, 2014 [4 favorites]
You shouldn't do this, but it also doesn't seem like it will be necessary. If your spouse has already missed this many days, natural consequences should start happening at work. Even if they don't, the sort of privacy and trust violation to involve your spouse's employer in their personal troubles will not help things.
posted by RainyJay at 3:23 PM on September 11, 2014 [9 favorites]
posted by RainyJay at 3:23 PM on September 11, 2014 [9 favorites]
Should I do this?
No. Everyone has their various platitudes about dealing with loved ones with drinking problems. Mine is the CCC one. You didn't cause this. You can't control this. You can't cure this. What you are doing now is trying to control this. And I feel you. I had a family member with a drinking problem and it was the worst. You can make your own decisions about how you feel about this particular stretch of behaviors and do what you need to do, for you, because of it. I am sorry because this sucks, but no you shouldn't interfere with this, you can only take care of yourself until such a point as your spouse decides to make a change in their life.
posted by jessamyn at 3:26 PM on September 11, 2014 [48 favorites]
No. Everyone has their various platitudes about dealing with loved ones with drinking problems. Mine is the CCC one. You didn't cause this. You can't control this. You can't cure this. What you are doing now is trying to control this. And I feel you. I had a family member with a drinking problem and it was the worst. You can make your own decisions about how you feel about this particular stretch of behaviors and do what you need to do, for you, because of it. I am sorry because this sucks, but no you shouldn't interfere with this, you can only take care of yourself until such a point as your spouse decides to make a change in their life.
posted by jessamyn at 3:26 PM on September 11, 2014 [48 favorites]
I'm so sympathetic - I've experienced something like this, and the desperation to do anything to break the cycle is strong. But this is not the way to get what you're after. First, yes, you'll have violated some trust and privacy and that may make it harder for your partner to ask for help when/if he's ready to do that. You may also make whatever's going on in his head that much more acute and may step up the drinking.
But also, just practically, it's not going to get you what you want. If I'm a manager and an employee's wife comes to me and discloses information I shouldn't have about my employee's medical condition, I can't do anything actionable with that. My next call is probably to HR to figure out how to cover my and the company's ass, and as much as I may be worried about the employee, I am less likely to do anything because now I can be perceived as acting based on information I should not have, rather than on the employee's actual performance or attendance. You may actually be hamstringing the manager's ability to do anything.
At the rate he's going, your partner is going to get into some kind of trouble with his employer and soon over his absenteeism, and quite likely also other performance issues. You can't speed this up.
You can and should take care of yourself. Do you need to leave, or to ask him to leave, until he sobers the hell up? Do you need to stop engaging him beyond the basics until he comes down off this streak? Do what you need to do to take care of yourself right now, and let his chips fall where they're going to fall.
posted by Stacey at 3:29 PM on September 11, 2014 [17 favorites]
But also, just practically, it's not going to get you what you want. If I'm a manager and an employee's wife comes to me and discloses information I shouldn't have about my employee's medical condition, I can't do anything actionable with that. My next call is probably to HR to figure out how to cover my and the company's ass, and as much as I may be worried about the employee, I am less likely to do anything because now I can be perceived as acting based on information I should not have, rather than on the employee's actual performance or attendance. You may actually be hamstringing the manager's ability to do anything.
At the rate he's going, your partner is going to get into some kind of trouble with his employer and soon over his absenteeism, and quite likely also other performance issues. You can't speed this up.
You can and should take care of yourself. Do you need to leave, or to ask him to leave, until he sobers the hell up? Do you need to stop engaging him beyond the basics until he comes down off this streak? Do what you need to do to take care of yourself right now, and let his chips fall where they're going to fall.
posted by Stacey at 3:29 PM on September 11, 2014 [17 favorites]
Does his employer have an employee assistance program? You could inquire of his HR office.
posted by Carol Anne at 4:12 PM on September 11, 2014 [4 favorites]
posted by Carol Anne at 4:12 PM on September 11, 2014 [4 favorites]
There is nothing you can do and nothing that will happen that will get an alcoholic to wake up and make a change.
Each addict has to get to that point on his or her own. You can actively decide that you're not going along for the ride. Don't make it an ultimatum. Just pack up your stuff and leave.
I'm surprised that your therapist hasn't suggested Al-Anon. Find a meeting and go to it. Learn what it means to be co-dependent.
It sounds like you're wrapped up in the drama of all of this, and you're looking to stir something up. Don't. It helps nothing.
If you're not ready to leave permanently, go stay with a friend for a week or so. Don't make a BFD of it, just tell your husband, "I don't want to live with an alcoholic any more. We have a lot of history and a lot of financial entanglements, so I have some thinking to do and plans to make. I'm going to my parent's house for a while. I'll see you at our next therapy appointment." Then go.
If he calls you drunk, tell him, "I won't discuss anything with you when you're drunk," and hang up. If he promises to change say, "That's good, I hope you take the appropriate steps, if you want, I'll go with you to enroll into rehab, or I'll take you to a meeting." Chances are, unless he's in earnest, that won't be happening.
At this point, it's up to him. There's nothing you can do to compel him to change.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 4:19 PM on September 11, 2014 [25 favorites]
Each addict has to get to that point on his or her own. You can actively decide that you're not going along for the ride. Don't make it an ultimatum. Just pack up your stuff and leave.
I'm surprised that your therapist hasn't suggested Al-Anon. Find a meeting and go to it. Learn what it means to be co-dependent.
It sounds like you're wrapped up in the drama of all of this, and you're looking to stir something up. Don't. It helps nothing.
If you're not ready to leave permanently, go stay with a friend for a week or so. Don't make a BFD of it, just tell your husband, "I don't want to live with an alcoholic any more. We have a lot of history and a lot of financial entanglements, so I have some thinking to do and plans to make. I'm going to my parent's house for a while. I'll see you at our next therapy appointment." Then go.
If he calls you drunk, tell him, "I won't discuss anything with you when you're drunk," and hang up. If he promises to change say, "That's good, I hope you take the appropriate steps, if you want, I'll go with you to enroll into rehab, or I'll take you to a meeting." Chances are, unless he's in earnest, that won't be happening.
At this point, it's up to him. There's nothing you can do to compel him to change.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 4:19 PM on September 11, 2014 [25 favorites]
Some companies have programs to assist employees struggling with issues like health or addiction. If it's available to him, coming clean to HR would be a good idea.
posted by lizbunny at 4:24 PM on September 11, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by lizbunny at 4:24 PM on September 11, 2014 [2 favorites]
You shouldn't contact his job, and you should especially not contact his job if he has health insurance through his job, as his health insurance should cover substance misuse treatment.
posted by jaguar at 4:59 PM on September 11, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by jaguar at 4:59 PM on September 11, 2014 [2 favorites]
It sounds like you're trying to orchestrate an intervention, but that's very much not the right way to do an intervention.
Have you been in touch with al anon or gotten some other kind of support for partners of alcoholics? That could be a good first step. The disease doesn't just effect him.
posted by alms at 5:02 PM on September 11, 2014 [2 favorites]
Have you been in touch with al anon or gotten some other kind of support for partners of alcoholics? That could be a good first step. The disease doesn't just effect him.
posted by alms at 5:02 PM on September 11, 2014 [2 favorites]
You cannot manipulate your spouse into not being an alcoholic. Your desire for him to not be an alcoholic, whether you beg and plead or not, does not matter.
If your therapist has not tried to communicate that, you'd probably be better off just going to Al-Anon for free. They put it front and center.
But for a lot of employment law and insurance reasons, even if you chose to do this as revenge, or to create a bottoming-out for yourself so you can justify leaving, this could end up biting you in the ass in a lot of ways. Just go if you want to go.
posted by Lyn Never at 5:18 PM on September 11, 2014 [1 favorite]
If your therapist has not tried to communicate that, you'd probably be better off just going to Al-Anon for free. They put it front and center.
But for a lot of employment law and insurance reasons, even if you chose to do this as revenge, or to create a bottoming-out for yourself so you can justify leaving, this could end up biting you in the ass in a lot of ways. Just go if you want to go.
posted by Lyn Never at 5:18 PM on September 11, 2014 [1 favorite]
I'm a boss and I'd have a goddamn heart attack if someone's spouse did this. I would have no idea what to do but I'd know what I sure as hell wouldn't do, which get involved in any way in a domestic situation involving one of my subordinate co-workers. Plus, if you and your spouse end up divorcing it's going to come up, most likely, that you tried to damage his career.
Put on your own oxygen mask first. Call your therapist and come up with some sane action plans.
posted by fshgrl at 5:27 PM on September 11, 2014 [9 favorites]
Put on your own oxygen mask first. Call your therapist and come up with some sane action plans.
posted by fshgrl at 5:27 PM on September 11, 2014 [9 favorites]
Adding to the chorus: you cannot make your spouse stop drinking. Only your spouse can do that. It sounds as if their job might be in jeopardy anyway.
If you want to leave, then leave. If you think you want an official separation or divorce, then lawyer up. But it would be a lot easier in the long run if you left, if that is what you want to do, rather than tried to cajole and blackmail your spouse into sobriety.
Take care of yourself and any children and/or pets you have first.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 5:28 PM on September 11, 2014
If you want to leave, then leave. If you think you want an official separation or divorce, then lawyer up. But it would be a lot easier in the long run if you left, if that is what you want to do, rather than tried to cajole and blackmail your spouse into sobriety.
Take care of yourself and any children and/or pets you have first.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 5:28 PM on September 11, 2014
Do not call his boss and do not contact HR at his employer. Legally, they probably can't really talk to you. You do NOT have a relationship to his employer. You have a relationship to HIM and HE has a relationship to HIS employer.
You can suggest he go to HR at some point and see what resources they have to offer. But you can't do it for him.
I understand why you want to do this. The reason codependence exists is because what he does or does not do impacts your life and you are just trying to protect yourself. But you have to get a lot more savvy about what legally and realistically constitutes good boundaries. And this is not it. This will just make things worse.
posted by Michele in California at 5:44 PM on September 11, 2014
You can suggest he go to HR at some point and see what resources they have to offer. But you can't do it for him.
I understand why you want to do this. The reason codependence exists is because what he does or does not do impacts your life and you are just trying to protect yourself. But you have to get a lot more savvy about what legally and realistically constitutes good boundaries. And this is not it. This will just make things worse.
posted by Michele in California at 5:44 PM on September 11, 2014
Al-Anon. Al-Anon. Al-Anon. Because your life is affected by someone else's drinking. Go here to find a meeting. If you don't like the first meeting you try, try another. They're all different.
What did I learn in Al-Anon? That there's nothing I can do to stop my loved one from drinking. Nothing. No proper strategy, no correct tone of voice, no perfect ultimatum. Nothing. All I can do is control my reaction: whether I stay, whether I go, what I want to do about my own life, etc.
When you get to your first meeting, when they ask for newcomers and/or anyone who has a "pressing problem," raise your hand. You have a pressing problem. You can find help at Al-Anon.
posted by BlahLaLa at 5:49 PM on September 11, 2014 [13 favorites]
What did I learn in Al-Anon? That there's nothing I can do to stop my loved one from drinking. Nothing. No proper strategy, no correct tone of voice, no perfect ultimatum. Nothing. All I can do is control my reaction: whether I stay, whether I go, what I want to do about my own life, etc.
When you get to your first meeting, when they ask for newcomers and/or anyone who has a "pressing problem," raise your hand. You have a pressing problem. You can find help at Al-Anon.
posted by BlahLaLa at 5:49 PM on September 11, 2014 [13 favorites]
You can suggest he go to HR at some point and see what resources they have to offer. But you can't do it for him.
I wouldn't even recommend that your spouse goes to HR. HR exists to protect the employer, not the employees. An alcoholic employee is a liability. One that can be easily managed by terminating the employee.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 5:59 PM on September 11, 2014 [3 favorites]
I wouldn't even recommend that your spouse goes to HR. HR exists to protect the employer, not the employees. An alcoholic employee is a liability. One that can be easily managed by terminating the employee.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 5:59 PM on September 11, 2014 [3 favorites]
I come from a family of alcoholics, and ended up being friends with a lot of people who also have alcoholic parents, siblings, family members, partners, etc. I've seen a lot of shit go down.
This is seriously one of the worst ideas i've ever heard, even taking that in to account. Literally anything else suggested here is so much better of an idea than that. There is literally no positive outcome from that.
Even if the boss only did exactly what you described, which is extremely unlikely, it would show that they were manipulative, unprofessional, and willing to engage this kind of shit-stirring. And it would likely put him in the crosshairs of someone who condones and engages in that sort of crap.
If he's maxing out his PTO and starting to in to unpaid time off, or just not being able to take time off anymore they'll deal with him themselves and the same consequences you want will start rolling in the normal way. Wanting to accelerate this process isn't necessarily a good idea, as it may completely blow up and end with him fired.
Really, just follow the other advice here and don't try and grab the wheel and crash the car early with this one.
posted by emptythought at 6:05 PM on September 11, 2014 [3 favorites]
This is seriously one of the worst ideas i've ever heard, even taking that in to account. Literally anything else suggested here is so much better of an idea than that. There is literally no positive outcome from that.
Even if the boss only did exactly what you described, which is extremely unlikely, it would show that they were manipulative, unprofessional, and willing to engage this kind of shit-stirring. And it would likely put him in the crosshairs of someone who condones and engages in that sort of crap.
If he's maxing out his PTO and starting to in to unpaid time off, or just not being able to take time off anymore they'll deal with him themselves and the same consequences you want will start rolling in the normal way. Wanting to accelerate this process isn't necessarily a good idea, as it may completely blow up and end with him fired.
Really, just follow the other advice here and don't try and grab the wheel and crash the car early with this one.
posted by emptythought at 6:05 PM on September 11, 2014 [3 favorites]
+1 to fshgrl above. I'm a boss too and if you came to me with this info, I'd scramble to cover my ass. I definitely would not threaten the employee.
posted by sunflower16 at 6:11 PM on September 11, 2014 [5 favorites]
posted by sunflower16 at 6:11 PM on September 11, 2014 [5 favorites]
I will add that, historically, this kind of thing did get done and did kind of work. So that might be why you have this idea that it might help.
By that, I mean that, for example, for a lot of years, military wives could go to the pharmacy, flash their military ID and pick up their husband's prescription medication. HIPAA changed all that (and probably also Gramm-Leach-Bliley, which is financial, not medical). The last few years I was married, my husband had to fill out paperwork if he wanted me to be able to pick up his medication. I couldn't just go do it based on "Well, I'm his wife" the way it was done historically.
My dad used to tell a story about having an alcoholic in his military unit and they would issue his pay to his wife, not to him, because if they gave it to him, he got drunk on the way home and did not take care of the family. The family never saw the money if the soldier picked up his pay. But that is just not done anymore. It isn't legal.
So if it makes you feel any better, this terrible idea is the sort of thing that used to get done and kind of worked in a certain context but those days are gone. Now, trying to do something like that is just going to make things hugely worse.
posted by Michele in California at 6:36 PM on September 11, 2014 [6 favorites]
By that, I mean that, for example, for a lot of years, military wives could go to the pharmacy, flash their military ID and pick up their husband's prescription medication. HIPAA changed all that (and probably also Gramm-Leach-Bliley, which is financial, not medical). The last few years I was married, my husband had to fill out paperwork if he wanted me to be able to pick up his medication. I couldn't just go do it based on "Well, I'm his wife" the way it was done historically.
My dad used to tell a story about having an alcoholic in his military unit and they would issue his pay to his wife, not to him, because if they gave it to him, he got drunk on the way home and did not take care of the family. The family never saw the money if the soldier picked up his pay. But that is just not done anymore. It isn't legal.
So if it makes you feel any better, this terrible idea is the sort of thing that used to get done and kind of worked in a certain context but those days are gone. Now, trying to do something like that is just going to make things hugely worse.
posted by Michele in California at 6:36 PM on September 11, 2014 [6 favorites]
Seconding jessamyn and others, as well as Al-Anon.
He has to decide he wants sobriety, which means that his life has to get bad enough for him to want to change. You can't make that decision for him, and you can't force him to his bottom.
What you can do is take care of yourself. What you can do is decide how bad things get before you walk. Figure out your threshold, because sometimes the best thing you can do for yourself and alcoholic in denial is cut them loose. Figure out your limits, communicate them, and do not waver from them no matter what he says or does.
So yeah. Al-Anon.
posted by middleclasstool at 8:35 PM on September 11, 2014
He has to decide he wants sobriety, which means that his life has to get bad enough for him to want to change. You can't make that decision for him, and you can't force him to his bottom.
What you can do is take care of yourself. What you can do is decide how bad things get before you walk. Figure out your threshold, because sometimes the best thing you can do for yourself and alcoholic in denial is cut them loose. Figure out your limits, communicate them, and do not waver from them no matter what he says or does.
So yeah. Al-Anon.
posted by middleclasstool at 8:35 PM on September 11, 2014
Good knows all of my pleading and bargaining and threatening etc isn't doing a damn thing.
And it never will do a damn thing.
I've got a real good friend who is a clean/sober alcoholic. When he was still drinking, his wife pleaded bargained threatened etc and etc, and he focused on what a crab-ass she was, and why didn't she just let him alone, and who wouldn't drink with a partner like her. She went to (drum roll) Al Anon and it was suggested to her that she drop all of that, and to begin to take care of herself rather than focus on him, and she did so. And now the alcoholic could no longer focus on her, and her going on about him, and that left him to consider his screwed up life.
It's like as if the two of them were looking into a mirror, but he was hiding behind her, and didn't see himself. But then she stepped out of the way, using some basic Al Anon principles, and now he sees himself clearly, and it isn't at all comfortable.
I heard one Al Anon say that the first time she met with her sponsor, she was going on and on about her husband this, and her husband that, etc and etc. Her sponsor listened, for a while, and then told the woman that she had another five minutes to say everything she wanted to say about her husband. Because she was never, ever to talk about him again,
Get the focus off of him. Get the focus on yourself.
posted by dancestoblue at 9:36 PM on September 11, 2014 [10 favorites]
And it never will do a damn thing.
I've got a real good friend who is a clean/sober alcoholic. When he was still drinking, his wife pleaded bargained threatened etc and etc, and he focused on what a crab-ass she was, and why didn't she just let him alone, and who wouldn't drink with a partner like her. She went to (drum roll) Al Anon and it was suggested to her that she drop all of that, and to begin to take care of herself rather than focus on him, and she did so. And now the alcoholic could no longer focus on her, and her going on about him, and that left him to consider his screwed up life.
It's like as if the two of them were looking into a mirror, but he was hiding behind her, and didn't see himself. But then she stepped out of the way, using some basic Al Anon principles, and now he sees himself clearly, and it isn't at all comfortable.
I heard one Al Anon say that the first time she met with her sponsor, she was going on and on about her husband this, and her husband that, etc and etc. Her sponsor listened, for a while, and then told the woman that she had another five minutes to say everything she wanted to say about her husband. Because she was never, ever to talk about him again,
Get the focus off of him. Get the focus on yourself.
posted by dancestoblue at 9:36 PM on September 11, 2014 [10 favorites]
If he hasn't already, boss is going to figure out real quick what is going on and spouse is going to be fired. As already stated, make your plans now; don't wait.
posted by charlesminus at 9:55 PM on September 11, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by charlesminus at 9:55 PM on September 11, 2014 [1 favorite]
I'm just going to chime in as one more former spouse of an alcoholic who was in the exact same situation. This is definitely the wrong approach.
The first thing you have to do is think about yourself. Your spouse losing their job is not what would be best for you right now. You may be tempted to want to force them to "hit bottom" so they realize they have a problem, but the bottom can get so so so much worse. Al-anon is a good idea if you need support in caring for yourself first. It's really hard to watch someone you love self destruct, but you really can't force someone to stop drinking when they don't want to.
posted by elvissa at 8:12 AM on September 12, 2014
The first thing you have to do is think about yourself. Your spouse losing their job is not what would be best for you right now. You may be tempted to want to force them to "hit bottom" so they realize they have a problem, but the bottom can get so so so much worse. Al-anon is a good idea if you need support in caring for yourself first. It's really hard to watch someone you love self destruct, but you really can't force someone to stop drinking when they don't want to.
posted by elvissa at 8:12 AM on September 12, 2014
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posted by AlexiaSky at 3:19 PM on September 11, 2014 [6 favorites]