patience, grasshopper.
August 17, 2014 9:36 PM Subscribe
how do i become more patient in situations where i have repeatedly told the person that what they are doing is frustrating/hurtful/upsetting me (over. and. over. and. over)?
i feel that i am a very patient and empathetic person. in my job as a creative director, i have been told repeatedly by those i direct and mentor (and those with whom i a peers) that i am a great manager because i am good at—and enjoy—teaching others. as long as i see sincere interest, motivation, and action to learn and improve, i allow people time to develop and make mistakes.
i feel that i am the same on a personal level. however, i find that when i have to repeatedly tell someone that a particular action is frustrating/hurtful/upsetting for me to deal with, my patience becomes like a fuse, growing ever shorter each time i have to repeat the request. most notably, this happens with my mother, who seems to be almost OCD-like in her ability to latch onto a particular subject or action and refuse to let go. for instance, several years ago, for a period of about six months, every time we had a conversation, she would bring up the same three topics related to how i was living my life. it got to a point where we were literally having the exact same conversation every time i called her. i would ask her to stop, but to no avail, and eventually this led to a big blow out and my literally threatening to not call or take her calls again if she did not stop. we ended up not speaking for a year. she still does this occasionally—but now with different topics (and yes, she is extremely passive-aggressive). i've come to the realization that she does it because i am not giving her the answer(s) she wants to hear and i think that she believes that if she asks enough times, she'll eventually get the "right" answer.
in the beginning i would (repeatedly) patiently answer her questions about why i was doing a particular thing of which she disapproved, of let her know, that yes, i was following some advice she had given me about how to conduct some area of my life. but now, if she asks me the same thing more than a few times, i immediately shut it down. if she continues to pursue it, i just end up losing it on her, which then makes her cry and call me things like harsh, ungrateful, and uncaring. and then i feel like the asshole for losing it on her. my fuse, when it comes to dealing with my mother and this kind of thing, is pretty much non-existent at this point. it makes being around her or talking to her difficult at times and—because i only get to see her a few weeks out of the year and as she gets older—that makes me sad because i want to enjoy those few weeks.
another example involves someone i was recently involved with. he had a habit of leaving me to hang out with his friends or his dad or whoever else in the middle of an hanging out with me. i didn't have a problem with it when it was a family emergency or when he wanted us to go meet my friends on a week night and i was just too tired. despite my explaining to him why i found this to be so upsetting to me (my ex-fiancé never prioritized me or our relationship), he continued to do this and the more this happened, the less and less i had the patience for it until it became and immediate fight. then i'm made to feel like the asshole with a temper for losing it. even after promising to stop it, he continued to do it. the last straw was when he had admitted to deliberately doing it on the last occasion we were together just to avoid hanging out with me.
how do i become more patient in situations like this? it's as tho the more times a certain action or behavior is repeated that i've relayed is frustrating for me to deal with, my ability to deal with it in a rational, non-emotionally upset manner becomes exponentially smaller and smaller until it no longer exists.
i feel that i am a very patient and empathetic person. in my job as a creative director, i have been told repeatedly by those i direct and mentor (and those with whom i a peers) that i am a great manager because i am good at—and enjoy—teaching others. as long as i see sincere interest, motivation, and action to learn and improve, i allow people time to develop and make mistakes.
i feel that i am the same on a personal level. however, i find that when i have to repeatedly tell someone that a particular action is frustrating/hurtful/upsetting for me to deal with, my patience becomes like a fuse, growing ever shorter each time i have to repeat the request. most notably, this happens with my mother, who seems to be almost OCD-like in her ability to latch onto a particular subject or action and refuse to let go. for instance, several years ago, for a period of about six months, every time we had a conversation, she would bring up the same three topics related to how i was living my life. it got to a point where we were literally having the exact same conversation every time i called her. i would ask her to stop, but to no avail, and eventually this led to a big blow out and my literally threatening to not call or take her calls again if she did not stop. we ended up not speaking for a year. she still does this occasionally—but now with different topics (and yes, she is extremely passive-aggressive). i've come to the realization that she does it because i am not giving her the answer(s) she wants to hear and i think that she believes that if she asks enough times, she'll eventually get the "right" answer.
in the beginning i would (repeatedly) patiently answer her questions about why i was doing a particular thing of which she disapproved, of let her know, that yes, i was following some advice she had given me about how to conduct some area of my life. but now, if she asks me the same thing more than a few times, i immediately shut it down. if she continues to pursue it, i just end up losing it on her, which then makes her cry and call me things like harsh, ungrateful, and uncaring. and then i feel like the asshole for losing it on her. my fuse, when it comes to dealing with my mother and this kind of thing, is pretty much non-existent at this point. it makes being around her or talking to her difficult at times and—because i only get to see her a few weeks out of the year and as she gets older—that makes me sad because i want to enjoy those few weeks.
another example involves someone i was recently involved with. he had a habit of leaving me to hang out with his friends or his dad or whoever else in the middle of an hanging out with me. i didn't have a problem with it when it was a family emergency or when he wanted us to go meet my friends on a week night and i was just too tired. despite my explaining to him why i found this to be so upsetting to me (my ex-fiancé never prioritized me or our relationship), he continued to do this and the more this happened, the less and less i had the patience for it until it became and immediate fight. then i'm made to feel like the asshole with a temper for losing it. even after promising to stop it, he continued to do it. the last straw was when he had admitted to deliberately doing it on the last occasion we were together just to avoid hanging out with me.
how do i become more patient in situations like this? it's as tho the more times a certain action or behavior is repeated that i've relayed is frustrating for me to deal with, my ability to deal with it in a rational, non-emotionally upset manner becomes exponentially smaller and smaller until it no longer exists.
I would suggest you sit down with your Mom, in person, and tell her exactly what you've said here - straight up, emphasizing that this is more than extremely important to you - it's something that has to be straightened out while there's still good time remaining to the two of you. Set up a code word that means - here we drop this subject and move on to another one, with no hard feelings, but this subject is closed. Get her to agree to this and don't change your position one bit.
I'm a mother who finds it very hard to butt out when I have SO much good advice to give and I think I'll burst if I can't get it said. My son lets me quickly summarize my advice, then says something like he'll take it under consideration, and then changes the subject. I've finally figured out that he'll do whatever he wants, but it's kind of him to let me tell him what I think he should do - and there have even been occasions when he's decided my advice was the right way to go! But it's hard to stop mothering, believe me.
As for your recent partner, it seems to me that if he wanted to BE your partner, he should be putting you ahead of everyone else because he would rather be with you than anyone else - certainly when the relationship is new. You had every reason to pin him to the wall on this and I'd have to wonder what he was getting from you that kept him with you if he was so averse to hanging out with you - did you give him a place to stay, help with his rent, a job? I think he was just using you and you dumped him - good girl.
It isn't always a bad thing for you to stand up for yourself, you know, even if you explode now and then - that's kinda human nature.
posted by aryma at 10:02 PM on August 17, 2014 [2 favorites]
I'm a mother who finds it very hard to butt out when I have SO much good advice to give and I think I'll burst if I can't get it said. My son lets me quickly summarize my advice, then says something like he'll take it under consideration, and then changes the subject. I've finally figured out that he'll do whatever he wants, but it's kind of him to let me tell him what I think he should do - and there have even been occasions when he's decided my advice was the right way to go! But it's hard to stop mothering, believe me.
As for your recent partner, it seems to me that if he wanted to BE your partner, he should be putting you ahead of everyone else because he would rather be with you than anyone else - certainly when the relationship is new. You had every reason to pin him to the wall on this and I'd have to wonder what he was getting from you that kept him with you if he was so averse to hanging out with you - did you give him a place to stay, help with his rent, a job? I think he was just using you and you dumped him - good girl.
It isn't always a bad thing for you to stand up for yourself, you know, even if you explode now and then - that's kinda human nature.
posted by aryma at 10:02 PM on August 17, 2014 [2 favorites]
It is very good that you are setting boundaries. Now you need to enforce those boundaries, in a way that doesn't involve losing your temper.
When someone violates your boundary, you could tell them in a calm but forceful way that they need to stop. You can say it in a positive, cheerful tone, but make sure they've heard you. For example, with your mom, you could:
- come up very close to her face, put your hands on either side of her face, and say in a gentle voice, "I love you, but you need to stop doing that now, okay? Got it?"
- make a very loud buzzer noise, and say "Bzzzzt! No more of that!"
- make a joke out of it and pretend to walk toward the door, saying, "Any more talk of this, and I'm out the door! I'm going! I'm going! I'm almost out! Are you stopping yet?"
If she still continues to do it, then I think it's fine for you to stop hanging out with her. Tell her that your trips are going to be cut short due to her obnoxious behavior, and then carry through with it.
Your date sounded inconsiderate. Instead of continuing to explain, I think you should have just dumped him earlier. I think your mom has lowered your standards so much that you found this acceptable in the guy, whereas you shouldn't have tolerated it.
posted by vienna at 10:06 PM on August 17, 2014
When someone violates your boundary, you could tell them in a calm but forceful way that they need to stop. You can say it in a positive, cheerful tone, but make sure they've heard you. For example, with your mom, you could:
- come up very close to her face, put your hands on either side of her face, and say in a gentle voice, "I love you, but you need to stop doing that now, okay? Got it?"
- make a very loud buzzer noise, and say "Bzzzzt! No more of that!"
- make a joke out of it and pretend to walk toward the door, saying, "Any more talk of this, and I'm out the door! I'm going! I'm going! I'm almost out! Are you stopping yet?"
If she still continues to do it, then I think it's fine for you to stop hanging out with her. Tell her that your trips are going to be cut short due to her obnoxious behavior, and then carry through with it.
Your date sounded inconsiderate. Instead of continuing to explain, I think you should have just dumped him earlier. I think your mom has lowered your standards so much that you found this acceptable in the guy, whereas you shouldn't have tolerated it.
posted by vienna at 10:06 PM on August 17, 2014
With your mother, you need to be drawing polite but firm boundaries long before you get to the blowing up point. You need to be ok with ending the conversation, saying goodbye and hanging up the phone without making it a "I'm never going to talk to you again" dramatic event.
With the friend, I don't 100% understand what was going on (the friend was going to hang out with his Dad instead of you, or he was leaving you in the room with the Dad while he went elsewhere, or?) but regardless, you still need to be setting expectations earlier on. If the friend leaves, feel free to leave yourself. Or stop hanging out with friend as often, and assume that he is probably going to do the same thing.
Basically, your problem is not that you have to be more patient with crappy people; it's that you need to understand that you can't control their crappiness, and set early and kindly-phrased boundaries and STICK TO THEM and not make it nuclear unless it really has to be.
posted by celtalitha at 10:07 PM on August 17, 2014 [6 favorites]
With the friend, I don't 100% understand what was going on (the friend was going to hang out with his Dad instead of you, or he was leaving you in the room with the Dad while he went elsewhere, or?) but regardless, you still need to be setting expectations earlier on. If the friend leaves, feel free to leave yourself. Or stop hanging out with friend as often, and assume that he is probably going to do the same thing.
Basically, your problem is not that you have to be more patient with crappy people; it's that you need to understand that you can't control their crappiness, and set early and kindly-phrased boundaries and STICK TO THEM and not make it nuclear unless it really has to be.
posted by celtalitha at 10:07 PM on August 17, 2014 [6 favorites]
First off, the group you "direct and mentor" does not include your mother. Your patience in helping others learn how to do their jobs better has nothing to do with working out a difficulty with your boyfriend.
Interactions with mother and boyfriend are about your feelings. Patience can be a part of dealing with feelings, but only a part -- along with being as straight as you are able about what your feelings really are, and trying to hear what other people's feelings are, and learning what you can tolerate and what you can't.
Here's the thing: when it's about feelings, the only changes you can make are within yourself. If someone is doing something that makes you feel bad, you tell them -- absolutely. If they keep doing the same thing, you can't change their behavior. You can only change your feelings and your actions.
Here are my opinions. Your mother -- she may or may not be coming from a caring place when she asks you all these questions, no way for me to tell. But you have a wide range of behavior besides "losing it on her." Here's a present from my daughter, who has used it on me to excellent effect: "Thanks for your concern, Mom" repeated calmly as often as necessary. Or ignoring her comment and talking about something else. Or saying "I have to go now, love you" and hanging up every single time she brings up The Subjects. The behavior you can change is your reaction. You may find one that changes her behavior, but that's not the point. You don't want to be upset, you want a calm relationship with her. Experiment with yourself until you find how to achieve that, from her finally getting it to never speaking to her again.
The boyfriend: I'm guessing this is actually an ex-boyfriend ("I was recently involved with"), and frankly it doesn't sound like a relationship worth chewing over the communication problems. He told you he wanted to avoid hanging out with you. He's pretty clear. Your options are 1) "I'm outta here, asshole" or 2) "But YOU always ......" on and on and on.
Your pain is pretty plain in this post, and I feel a lot of sympathy, but it doesn't seem like working on patience is what you need. Is there any chance you could do a short period of therapy with a counselor? Just to practice more "I" talk and less "If only you would" talk. Sometimes it just takes some practice and a little help from someone else to help you recognize how you're thinking.
Good luck.
posted by kestralwing at 10:18 PM on August 17, 2014 [5 favorites]
Interactions with mother and boyfriend are about your feelings. Patience can be a part of dealing with feelings, but only a part -- along with being as straight as you are able about what your feelings really are, and trying to hear what other people's feelings are, and learning what you can tolerate and what you can't.
Here's the thing: when it's about feelings, the only changes you can make are within yourself. If someone is doing something that makes you feel bad, you tell them -- absolutely. If they keep doing the same thing, you can't change their behavior. You can only change your feelings and your actions.
Here are my opinions. Your mother -- she may or may not be coming from a caring place when she asks you all these questions, no way for me to tell. But you have a wide range of behavior besides "losing it on her." Here's a present from my daughter, who has used it on me to excellent effect: "Thanks for your concern, Mom" repeated calmly as often as necessary. Or ignoring her comment and talking about something else. Or saying "I have to go now, love you" and hanging up every single time she brings up The Subjects. The behavior you can change is your reaction. You may find one that changes her behavior, but that's not the point. You don't want to be upset, you want a calm relationship with her. Experiment with yourself until you find how to achieve that, from her finally getting it to never speaking to her again.
The boyfriend: I'm guessing this is actually an ex-boyfriend ("I was recently involved with"), and frankly it doesn't sound like a relationship worth chewing over the communication problems. He told you he wanted to avoid hanging out with you. He's pretty clear. Your options are 1) "I'm outta here, asshole" or 2) "But YOU always ......" on and on and on.
Your pain is pretty plain in this post, and I feel a lot of sympathy, but it doesn't seem like working on patience is what you need. Is there any chance you could do a short period of therapy with a counselor? Just to practice more "I" talk and less "If only you would" talk. Sometimes it just takes some practice and a little help from someone else to help you recognize how you're thinking.
Good luck.
posted by kestralwing at 10:18 PM on August 17, 2014 [5 favorites]
You wouldn't get upset if you kicked folks to the curb the hot second they did X thing you asked them not to do.
"Mom, I asked you not to do X. Gotta Go!"
*click*
"Oh, you're leaving me to XYZ? I'm going home/shopping/to a friends! See you later!"
*Don't see him later, he's a button pushing asshole and you can do better*
See how easy that is? Problem solved.
You're conflating professional situations with personal ones. Stop that and you'll be much happier.
The politics of these two settings are not at all the same!
(PS. I promise it won't take long for you to train your mom. Just be consistent.)
posted by jbenben at 10:47 PM on August 17, 2014 [7 favorites]
"Mom, I asked you not to do X. Gotta Go!"
*click*
"Oh, you're leaving me to XYZ? I'm going home/shopping/to a friends! See you later!"
*Don't see him later, he's a button pushing asshole and you can do better*
See how easy that is? Problem solved.
You're conflating professional situations with personal ones. Stop that and you'll be much happier.
The politics of these two settings are not at all the same!
(PS. I promise it won't take long for you to train your mom. Just be consistent.)
posted by jbenben at 10:47 PM on August 17, 2014 [7 favorites]
The trick isn't to be patient -- it's to recognize when people are walking all over you sooner and dump them instead of training them to believe you'll put up with them no matter how many times you verbally set a limit that you don't truly enforce. 1-3 strikes, from now on, and no more. You don't have to be patient with people who violate your boundaries, not even your mother.
posted by Hermione Granger at 10:59 PM on August 17, 2014 [17 favorites]
posted by Hermione Granger at 10:59 PM on August 17, 2014 [17 favorites]
Alternatively... you don't always have to be completely honest about ALL your feelings. You could just scream on the inside but fake patience on the outside. This has the advantage of not responding to the aggressive part of passive aggression, without actually yielding any ground. It is hard emotional labor, but not as hard as forcing yourself to be saintly in the face of extreme provocation.
posted by gingerest at 2:53 AM on August 18, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by gingerest at 2:53 AM on August 18, 2014 [1 favorite]
You're looking at this the wrong way. Yes, it's great to cultivate a calm mind and patience, but you're describing situations where you're allowing people to treat you badly. That doesn't require patience on your part as much as it requires a firm hand (with your mom) and a close evaluation (guy).
Okay, so, your mom (my mom, most moms). I'm 50, raised three swell kids single-handedly, have two advanced degrees, love my career and do okay financially (granted, I have one divorce and a recently ended engagement on my CV as well but still...).
And every single conversation with my mom involves a little bit of chit chat and then she immediately tries to dive into this bizarre, "I feel like there are things about life I never told you; that I failed you as a mother." Sounds like your mom. I hate when she does this because what the hell, mom, right? Clearly I'm not living the 1950's housewife life she envisioned for me but let it go already.
Every time I hear the heavy sigh, I know she's about to segue into her sadness about what a failure I am/she is, and that's when I say, "Love you, gotta go!" and I get off the phone.
So that gets your mom off the plate.
The guy you're describing has made it clear that you're not only not a priority for him, but that he'd prefer not to hang out with you. I understand where if you mostly like him, you'd give it some time to see if after a few talks things change, but they haven't. And I completely understand why you'd blow up (I probably would also), because you'd hope that after a few talks he'd stop doing it. But he hasn't stopped doing it. He's made his priorities clear (and that seems like fairly assy behavior).
So you should cut him loose and don't look back.
posted by kinetic at 3:59 AM on August 18, 2014
Okay, so, your mom (my mom, most moms). I'm 50, raised three swell kids single-handedly, have two advanced degrees, love my career and do okay financially (granted, I have one divorce and a recently ended engagement on my CV as well but still...).
And every single conversation with my mom involves a little bit of chit chat and then she immediately tries to dive into this bizarre, "I feel like there are things about life I never told you; that I failed you as a mother." Sounds like your mom. I hate when she does this because what the hell, mom, right? Clearly I'm not living the 1950's housewife life she envisioned for me but let it go already.
Every time I hear the heavy sigh, I know she's about to segue into her sadness about what a failure I am/she is, and that's when I say, "Love you, gotta go!" and I get off the phone.
So that gets your mom off the plate.
The guy you're describing has made it clear that you're not only not a priority for him, but that he'd prefer not to hang out with you. I understand where if you mostly like him, you'd give it some time to see if after a few talks things change, but they haven't. And I completely understand why you'd blow up (I probably would also), because you'd hope that after a few talks he'd stop doing it. But he hasn't stopped doing it. He's made his priorities clear (and that seems like fairly assy behavior).
So you should cut him loose and don't look back.
posted by kinetic at 3:59 AM on August 18, 2014
Why do you want to be patient with people who refuse to respect your not-very-burdensome requests? You've been plenty patient and that hasn't gotten you the behavior you want, so stop repeating that pattern - it clearly doesn't work. Set boundaries, let people know about them and what the consequences are for crossing them (you'll leave, you'll hang up, etc.), and then enforce them. And don't allow dozens of violations to occur before you enforce them.
posted by rtha at 6:40 AM on August 18, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by rtha at 6:40 AM on August 18, 2014 [1 favorite]
Why do you want to be patient with people who refuse to respect your not-very-burdensome requests?
This would be my question. It seems like you are good at your job and know how to "be human" for lack of a better word and the people in your more intimate life are not being reasonable about things. You can remain confident that what you are asking for is reasonable (not to go over things again and again with your mom, not getting blown off by your SO) and work on your own responses to them. People who don't respect your boundaries, even if they are family or lovers, should be managed as if they are unreasonable which they basically are.
This is tough especially if you are someone who has a short fuse. People have given you scripts above, the short form is "do not engage" after you've had discussions about this with people "Hey when you do X it really hurts my feelings and makes me not want to talk to or be with you" and they persist you just do the "Okay, I've told you how I feel and now I am going to enforce my own boundaries if you won't respect them" thing and extract yourself from the conversation or situation. With your mom this means getting off the phone, not engaging in some stupid negotiation with her. With your SO this means telling them that this is a dealbreaker and they can either work with you to stop doing this stuff (there are things that people may not have considered before, give folks a chance or two to get it right) or not be part of Team Us anymore.
My mom has some sort of nervous tic where she can't help start really touchy conversations about topics that don't tend to go well with us and then, once started she won't stop. This leaves me in the awkward position of either having this conversation that I then won't be able to end, or just walking away from a conversation with my mom. I'm happier with the latter approach. She can't help it, for whatever reason, and she's not really open to negotiation about it. Not only that but if we have a conversation that she gets "sticky" on and won't leave, it will end with me becoming furious and unhappy. I can control my own emotional response even if I can't control her weird behavior. So, work on your own anger/temper, don't expect people to change who have shown that they're maybe not capable of it, and remind yourself that we tend to pick people for our intimate relationships that tend to mirror those we had with our families and try not to repeat bad patterns.
posted by jessamyn at 6:49 AM on August 18, 2014 [2 favorites]
This would be my question. It seems like you are good at your job and know how to "be human" for lack of a better word and the people in your more intimate life are not being reasonable about things. You can remain confident that what you are asking for is reasonable (not to go over things again and again with your mom, not getting blown off by your SO) and work on your own responses to them. People who don't respect your boundaries, even if they are family or lovers, should be managed as if they are unreasonable which they basically are.
This is tough especially if you are someone who has a short fuse. People have given you scripts above, the short form is "do not engage" after you've had discussions about this with people "Hey when you do X it really hurts my feelings and makes me not want to talk to or be with you" and they persist you just do the "Okay, I've told you how I feel and now I am going to enforce my own boundaries if you won't respect them" thing and extract yourself from the conversation or situation. With your mom this means getting off the phone, not engaging in some stupid negotiation with her. With your SO this means telling them that this is a dealbreaker and they can either work with you to stop doing this stuff (there are things that people may not have considered before, give folks a chance or two to get it right) or not be part of Team Us anymore.
My mom has some sort of nervous tic where she can't help start really touchy conversations about topics that don't tend to go well with us and then, once started she won't stop. This leaves me in the awkward position of either having this conversation that I then won't be able to end, or just walking away from a conversation with my mom. I'm happier with the latter approach. She can't help it, for whatever reason, and she's not really open to negotiation about it. Not only that but if we have a conversation that she gets "sticky" on and won't leave, it will end with me becoming furious and unhappy. I can control my own emotional response even if I can't control her weird behavior. So, work on your own anger/temper, don't expect people to change who have shown that they're maybe not capable of it, and remind yourself that we tend to pick people for our intimate relationships that tend to mirror those we had with our families and try not to repeat bad patterns.
posted by jessamyn at 6:49 AM on August 18, 2014 [2 favorites]
I don't know if this is too out there but your question reminded me of an answer given by Captain Awkward. The asker in that case has a totally different problem but also has parents that don't respect boundaries and don't respond normally to normal requests. You might find some validation there about how hard it can be.
This quote in particular "She is likely to see attempts at boundary-setting as direct personal attacks on her. To do otherwise profoundly threatens her self-image, and protecting her self-image is a lot of what motivates her to behave as she does. So you can waste a lifetime in trying to get her to apologize or looking for that cathartic moment when she acknowledges what she did and you have that healing, clearing-the-air discussion and resolution."
And this one about your mother's response "People like your folks don’t really understand boundaries, but they do understand consequences, eventually. It’s a long journey, but since you are going to have the conflict anyway, deploying scripts can be a part of your own leveling up process as you practice resetting your relationship along more adult lines. "
posted by hydrobatidae at 7:30 AM on August 18, 2014 [1 favorite]
This quote in particular "She is likely to see attempts at boundary-setting as direct personal attacks on her. To do otherwise profoundly threatens her self-image, and protecting her self-image is a lot of what motivates her to behave as she does. So you can waste a lifetime in trying to get her to apologize or looking for that cathartic moment when she acknowledges what she did and you have that healing, clearing-the-air discussion and resolution."
And this one about your mother's response "People like your folks don’t really understand boundaries, but they do understand consequences, eventually. It’s a long journey, but since you are going to have the conflict anyway, deploying scripts can be a part of your own leveling up process as you practice resetting your relationship along more adult lines. "
posted by hydrobatidae at 7:30 AM on August 18, 2014 [1 favorite]
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by bleep at 9:53 PM on August 17, 2014 [19 favorites]