“Get yourself together, man. Move to X, buy a loft…”
July 15, 2014 6:51 PM   Subscribe

New York City has us feeling like a New Yorker cover. Where should we relocate?

We (my friend and I, early 20s, a year and change out of college) have lived in and around New York City for our entire lives and it might be time to explore going somewhere else. New York seems like a bad place to pursue our goals for a number of reasons:

He’s a musician and composer looking for work in something arts-proximal, but would eventually like to get a serious ensemble together. It seems like a lot of the musicians in the city are either busy supporting themselves on disposable jobs that they can drop if they need to go on tour, or are unwilling to give a young composer the time of day when they could be practicing Ravel in preparation for orchestra auditions.

I’m a newshound who wants to get into public radio production. I did an internship with WNYC but they made it pretty clear that full-time openings are scarce because the best producers from NPR stations all over the country are willing to move in order to work there.

We went to a school adjacent to a tiny town where a lot of students lived and loved the “punk shows in the basement, mason jar cocktails on the porch” way of life. Now that we’re out of school and back near urban density we can appreciate some of the great things about living in a city (lots of bars and restaurants, vibrant singles scene) and I want to see if we can meld the two together.

We’re looking for somewhere substantial (i.e. doesn’t suffer from the Ashville problem) and friendly with a reasonable supply of “real jobs”, a lower cost of living, and a great music and arts scene.

Some of the current contenders are:

Boston, MA

Madison, WI - We have some friends from school who are natives and love it. Much more space, lower rents than the NYC metro area, and a reportedly huge arts culture. Lack of diversity might be a big con; I hear that Madison can be very segregated.

Philadelphia, PA - This is where even secondhand information gets foggy. The grapevine says that the rent is affordable and the arts scene is solid, but I don’t know if that intelligence is still good. Too often, once a city becomes widely known as a good place to move the honeymoon is already over.

Pittsburgh, PA - This is the one we know the least about. I know that Pitt and CMU are located there, but I don't know anything about the health of the music programs at the schools or its radio station. I also know that Pittsburgh is frequently just behind Detroit on the list of rust belt cities that aren’t getting better anytime soon.

We're looking for additional intelligence on the places listed above, along with other suggestions (preferably North the Mason-Dixon line) of towns that are generally bike/walking friendly, youth friendly, and arts friendly.
posted by Spiced Out Calvin Coolidge to Grab Bag (41 answers total) 9 users marked this as a favorite
Portland, Oregon, maybe? Affordable, great music scene and restaurants and bars, friendly, fun, at least some real jobs....
posted by three_red_balloons at 6:54 PM on July 15, 2014

The cost of living in Boston is pretty awful. And I found the abundance of Harvard and MIT know-it-alls to be a little too much to bear.

Madison and Philly seem like nice choices. I'd thrown Chicago into the ring -- excellent cost of living and all the opportunity any big city could offer. The question would be the job market for guys like you. I'm not sure of Chicago is an easy place to "make it" but you could do a little research. It's a very cool and fun city.

Austin, TX may be good in terms of art scene and youth, and I think the economy there is doing quite well. It's not north of the Mason-Dixon, but just like Portland, they've adopted a identity of being a quirky city. But the cost of living is a little bit high, IMO. I'd consider it.

I'd also toss out Seattle and Portland as places you could consider. You seem to like the midwest -- Ohio has a lot of big cities that might work, specifically Columbus, and Lexington KY may be worth a gander.
posted by AppleTurnover at 7:06 PM on July 15, 2014 [2 favorites]

Are you set on being on the East Coast? You are listing places relatively close to NYC (except for Madison).

Portland is a great option. Seattle works too.

Boston is kind of expensive, unfortunately.

If you are very career driven and the music / radio scene is a big factor, LA is kind of the epicenter for that. But it's also a hard city and doesn't really have a "community" in that you have to drive everywhere; and it's kind of cutthroat and everyone is doing entertainment.

Washington DC is a great city. It's more urban than the above, and has amazing diversity, and a great arts and music scene (I could go on and on about it - from free jazz concerts on Fridays, drumming circles) I don't know if it's as affordable as Pittsburgh, but if you are open to looking across neighborhoods I'm sure you can find something. It's not nearly as condensed as NYC but still has that urban element.

I suggest you spend at least a week or visit your friends before you move there. A lot of the time you can get a feel just by going.
posted by pando11 at 7:07 PM on July 15, 2014

Berlin is one of the cheapest capital cities in western world, there's lots of space, it's culturally richer than a lot of your contenders (not just an NPR affiliate, although it has one of those), and the job scene is improving (it's no longer the Portland of Europe). And it is hella north of the Mason Dixon line.
posted by caek at 7:08 PM on July 15, 2014 [3 favorites]

I'd add Baltimore to your list. COL is comparable to Philadelphia and Pittsburgh. It's got a good arts scene in and of itself, with the added advantage of being about an hour from Washington DC for purposes of access to additional venues, artists, etc.
posted by drlith at 7:10 PM on July 15, 2014 [1 favorite]

Best answer: Madison is fantastic. The diversity is... eh, but it's what you make it. There's certainly a lot of international culture. The fact that you've got the college town aspects and the government/other stuff is a huge plus.

I'm a musician myself (with connections to composers). The scene is wonderful, in many genres. All sorts of serious musicians ready to create a pickup orchestra on a week's notice.

Madison's got a ton of stuff going on in town, but its proximity to Chicago, the Twin Cities (also a nice option) and even Milwaukee (good shows, etc.) is great.

Amazing restaurant/food scene.

Any specific questions, feel free to MeMail me :)
posted by Madamina at 7:13 PM on July 15, 2014 [2 favorites]

It's in the south, but we've really enjoyed living in Atlanta after moving from NYC two years ago. There are some hip neighborhoods, a great food scene, and a decent arts scene. It's not suburban if you live in the actual city. Plus, it's cheap and people are really friendly down here.
posted by pourtant at 7:18 PM on July 15, 2014 [1 favorite]

I live in Philly. I can't speak to your industry concerns at all, but I can confirm that the rent - compared to, say, NYC, DC, SF, Seattle - is quite cheap. The problem the arts face in Philly is a relative paucity of funding, not a lack of cheap places for artists to live.

Pittsburgh, PA - This is the one we know the least about. I know that Pitt and CMU are located there, but I don't know anything about the health of the music programs at the schools or its radio station. I also know that Pittsburgh is frequently just behind Detroit on the list of rust belt cities that aren’t getting better anytime soon.

Huh? I'm not sure what lists you're looking at, but Pittsburgh is almost the exact opposite: Usually it's cited as the gold standard of what Rust Belt cities want to be. The economy's pretty healthy, with significant finance, biotech, medical, and educational components; Google has an outpost there if that tells you something. It's not a particularly big city, the economy is just "doing fine" as opposed to especially booming, and it's not linked into a larger urban zone a la the East Coast/Great Lakes/SoCal. All that said, Pittsburgh is more or less the Rust Belt city that made good and successfully leveraged the institutions that were founded & funded in headier days to enter the 21st century with its head held high and its future looking bright.
posted by Tomorrowful at 7:32 PM on July 15, 2014 [10 favorites]

Providence, Rhode Island.

GREAT arts and music scene, with tons of support for the local arts (like artist residencies, local venues that book local music, lots of DIY and collaborations, etc.). Also there is a variety and an accessibility of local news and reporting. It is really cheap, especially compared to larger cities like Boston, and has really thriving 20-and-30-something communities. It is a little on the small side (but at 180k, it's more than twice the size of Asheville/Portland, Maine/other college towns), and the RI economy is in the toilet in general, but there are definitely real jobs there, and it is worth looking in to. (Also would be a easy transition from NYC.)

Happy to direct you to specific opportunities or organizations via memail if you want.
posted by likeatoaster at 7:39 PM on July 15, 2014 [3 favorites]

Best answer: Folks are suggesting Portland, and I love my town, but if you're looking for lots of real jobs and diversity, this is not the place for you. I'd say Portland has the Asheville problem.

Oh! And now I realize that you linked to my comment about the Asheville problem, where I compared it to Portland. That was three years ago, and I'd say it's still true about Portland.

(It makes me so happy that you cited me!)
posted by bluedaisy at 7:42 PM on July 15, 2014 [3 favorites]

We're looking for additional intelligence on the places listed above, along with other suggestions (preferably North the Mason-Dixon line) of towns that are generally bike/walking friendly, youth friendly, and arts friendly.

If you could point out why you want to be north of the Mason-Dixon line, it might help us refine our suggestions or point out somewhere you haven't thought of. There's a lot of nice, walkable, bike friendly, youth friendly, arts friendly, music friendly, places with jobs and reasonable rent down here (that are diverse both in terms of POC and sexuality), and we like both our punk music and our booze in mason jars. :)
posted by joycehealy at 8:10 PM on July 15, 2014 [2 favorites]

Chicago has all of the things you want. Cheap cheap (compared to NYC and Boston, anyway), tons of culture/music/arts, lots to do generally, friendly people. I love it here. It is the one big city that is actually affordable, even in really nice neighborhoods.

I like Madison a lot, but it can be kind of a weird place to be a young person who is not affiliated with the university, unless you want to work for Epic. Madison is a LOT smaller than where you're from, and it might get stifling quickly.
posted by goodbyewaffles at 8:11 PM on July 15, 2014 [3 favorites]

Or what about Minneapolis? People in Minneapolis love their bikes, man, and there are loads of young artsy cool people all over that city. It's cold obviously but not all that much worse than Madison.
posted by goodbyewaffles at 8:13 PM on July 15, 2014 [2 favorites]

give Denver a thought. the downtown area is revitalizing and young folks are moving there because of the development, but things are still growing and it hasn't hit max capacity yet. i go back once or twice a year (i'm a NYCer myself) and i have a blast every time - i think about moving back someday. it's bike friendly in the sense that there are your typical bike paths around the city, but even better are these amazing bike trails that go on for miles. things are walkable in downtown but most of my friends there have cars as well. the light rail is developing but is limited in its range. when i was there i borrowed a bike and actually felt like it was easier/less stressful to ride around than NYC, mostly due to wider car lanes and less density. you can also bring your bike onto buses (on the front racks or undercarriage), which is something you aren't allowed in NYC either.
posted by cristinacristinacristina at 8:26 PM on July 15, 2014

FWIW I have a friend in Chicago who is very into the amateur music scene and she seems to have no lack of opportunities.

A friend who moved to Seattle who from what I've been told is very talented (I know nothing of these things) and has been in numerous bands over the years, had joined two bands within a week of moving there. One of them is releasing an album and seems to be enjoying at least a modicum of success.
posted by whoaali at 8:31 PM on July 15, 2014

You should stay in new york. It's hard to find creative jobs everywhere, especially when you're a young'un, and you've both already got a head start on two of the most difficult-to-break-into, dying industries on earth in the one city where there is no ceiling on success in either career. Neither of you is going to find work as a composer or radio producer in a smaller town with fewer jobs easier than you will in a booming creative economy where you've already worked at the flagship station while he presumably has been meeting other music folks and scoring movies directed by NYU film students or whatever. Move to Hoboken, Queens, or Sunset Park and keep trying. Everywhere else is too small to support your dreams.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 8:36 PM on July 15, 2014 [11 favorites]

If you want an actual staff job in public radio, you're either going to have to move someplace remote or you're going to work as a freelancer until you have enough experience to land a staff job. JournalismJobs.com has a total of 8 job openings in radio. NPR's own site has 1 page of jobs, and 7 of them are in Development.
posted by Ideefixe at 8:45 PM on July 15, 2014

Response by poster: Oh! And now I realize that you linked to my comment about the Asheville problem, where I compared it to Portland. That was three years ago, and I'd say it's still true about Portland.

It was a good way to illustrate a trend that I could have called it the Beacon problem or the Hudson problem. There are lots of kids our age moving to similar places in the Hudson Valley looking for a small creative hub and what they find is a place with very little job infrastructure to speak of outside of tourism.

If you could point out why you want to be north of the Mason-Dixon line it might help us refine our suggestions or point out somewhere you haven't thought of.

No reason other than I love distinct seasons. I think I'd be freaked out to live in a place that doesn't get snow (but getting out of my comfort zone is probably part of the solution).
posted by Spiced Out Calvin Coolidge at 8:55 PM on July 15, 2014

Best answer: I love Madison, and I think most of what you've heard about it is accurate. It fits most of your criteria, but it definitely isn't racially diverse. It has low cost of living and low unemployment.

I'd also second goodbyewaffles' suggestion of Minneapolis. It has a lot of the same attributes as Madison in a bigger city. I'd say Madison has a slightly better music scene than Minneapolis (adjusting for the cities' sizes), but Minneapolis seems like a way better place to get into public radio. You'll have cold winters, but Madison has pretty cold winters, too.

I like Philly. When I've visited friends there I've had tons of fun, and I've been surprised how affordable their rent is for a large east coast city. I don't know much about the music/radio scene, though.

* I've lived in Madison, Minneapolis, and NYC, among other places.
posted by Fishkins at 8:56 PM on July 15, 2014

Read this LA Times article about Cleveland published just today.
posted by Dansaman at 9:20 PM on July 15, 2014 [1 favorite]

Seconding Austin
Ann Arbor
St. Louis
Twin Cities
posted by amaire at 9:37 PM on July 15, 2014 [2 favorites]

Nashville should be on your list of cities to visit. It's vibrant and welcoming to new people - super cheap and lots of creative energy. People mistakenly think it's all country music, but there's a ton of different music. There also a good amount of session work and songwriters groups.

Is public radio that only option for you? That's a very limited opportunity. Would you do other types of news or production work?

BTW, Your intel on Pittsburgh is comically bad.
posted by 26.2 at 10:22 PM on July 15, 2014

Another vote for Chicago. It hits all your requirements and (bonus!) has multiple public radio stations.
posted by SisterHavana at 11:28 PM on July 15, 2014

Chicago. It's our most-underrated city. It has just about all NYC has with less congestion and for a much cheaper price.

Madison is great (lived there for a while), but it'll seem small after NYC, I suspect. Spend a week there and see what you think.

What about the LA area? We've three NPR affiliates (KPCC, KCRW, KVCR). There's a bunch of orchestras around ( LA Chamber, LA Phil, Pasadena, one in OC, etc). People here are wonderful if you're not on the west side. (Lots of good people there, too. But most of the assholes I find out here I find there. )

Feel free to memail me about any of these. I know them all fairly well.
posted by persona au gratin at 11:52 PM on July 15, 2014

There's snow in the mountains around LA, btw.
posted by persona au gratin at 11:52 PM on July 15, 2014

Denver might be worth a look.
posted by Emperor SnooKloze at 12:02 AM on July 16, 2014

Pittsburgh is indeed better than you make it out to be - I've lived there, grew up in Detroit, and second Ann Arbor for later in life - but coming from NYC I think it's just a bit too much on the "young family" end of the scale and will seem a bit limiting if you're young 20's, out of school, but single and childless for the foreseeable future.

And speaking of Detroit, if you want to blaze new trails, that's the place to be. You will be the engine of the city, not other way round, and that will be terrifying and frustrating in all new and different ways.
posted by kcm at 12:05 AM on July 16, 2014 [2 favorites]

Oh dear lord. Do not come to Cleveland. It's still a hell hole outside of the trendy Ohio City neighborhoods. The economy sucks here. I have run into some of the most close minded people in the world (and I lived in Korea for almost 10 years). I say this as a native Clevelander, living in Cleveland still.
posted by kathrynm at 12:32 AM on July 16, 2014

As has been noted, you are way off the mark about Pittsburgh.

Given your respective ambitions, I think I'd start with a national search for appropriate public radio jobs in line with what you want to do. When you find a job posting that looks promising, then go on and research the arts scene in that area. In any given city there will probably be a lot more jobs that fit the description "something arts-proximal" than ones that fit the description "full-time public radio production."
posted by jon1270 at 2:42 AM on July 16, 2014

How about Albany, New York? It's much cheaper than NYC, there's a pretty good arts scene, it's diverse. But when I say Albany, I mean Albany proper. DO NOT MOVE TO THE SURROUNDING SUBURBS.
posted by Enchanting Grasshopper at 2:46 AM on July 16, 2014

Folks are suggesting Portland, and I love my town, but if you're looking for lots of real jobs and diversity, this is not the place for you. I'd say Portland has the Asheville problem.

This applies to seattle too, which a lot of people suggested. And wish the addition that the housing market is fucked in the butt and rents are shooting up at an astronomical vancouver-like rate. There's very very little meat on the bone for "day jobs" while you try and jack this sort of thing that isn't either minimum wage food service or coding at amazon with two degrees. All the meat from the bone between those two extremes is almost 100% knawed off, and anyone who says otherwise hasn't had boots on the ground for a while.

Honestly, i agree with the person saying to stay put and move to queens or something. An awful lot of the people i knew and grew up with in seattle went to nyc to try and hack it at something tough to break into/not die or burn out doing like this(IE: writing, starting from essentially nothing in fashion design, lots of other creative things) and every single one of them managed to hack it since they were truly driven, partially shown by their willingness to actually make the leap and go there in the first place.

Other people i know, or knew bounced down the west coast to portland and beyond and often ended up showing back up in seattle wimpering with their tail between their legs because shit is hard out there, and in basically any field like what you described it's either full up, or full up and full of people more qualified than you already pawing at the door when you got there.

There's more of pretty much everything where you are, and the opportunities only seem to dwindle when you go elsewhere.
posted by emptythought at 3:40 AM on July 16, 2014 [1 favorite]

I was also going to raise Chicago as an option that meets your criteria. Glad to see it mentioned numerous times already in the thread. Other than staying in the NYC area, which I also think is an excellent move, I think it's among the best options. I say it as someone who has lived in a few of the places under discussion (NYC, Chicago, Seattle, Providence RI). Second hand intel from friends also confirms that Pittsburgh is doing well, and Portland OR can't meet your needs.
posted by safetyfork at 4:47 AM on July 16, 2014

Nthing Minneapolis. One thing I loved about living there was the super-vibrant arts scene. Even as a not-super-artsy person, it was so pervasive that I found myself participating more than I have in any other city I've lived. It's big enough to support multiple large scenes, but affordable enough for people to actually have time for their art.

There's a very healthy public radio situation there, with a few NPR affiliates, as well as KFAI, an independent public radio station. It's also way more diverse than you'd expect, with lots of immigrants.

It very much has a "drinking out of mason jars on porches" vibe. There's a big bike culture there, and some people even bike year-round, MN winter notwithstanding.
posted by lunasol at 4:52 AM on July 16, 2014

Best answer: I love Philadelphia, but all of my friends here who work in "arts-proximate" professional jobs clawed a hell of a way up to p get where they are. The musicians I know, meanwhile, are by and large doing things much like you describe in NYC; working retail, restaurant, and manual-labor type gigs and playing tons of shows on the side. You don't have to hustle quite as intensely to pull that off here. Rent is cheaper, for sure, there are tons of room shares in group houses of varying degrees of dishevelment, it's not hard to find housing somewhere if you're not picky. But you'll still have to hustle.

Plenty of public radio stations (and some cool small radio projects too--see G-town Radio), but they're not going to be any easier to break into here.

Bear in mind also that the musician friends I'm referring to above who make Philly home are immersed in the punk basement show scene. If you want that, Philly is a pretty damn fantastic place to be. If you want classical composers and ensembles, New York's your place. I have a friend who might be of help in finding that stuff in NYC--memail me and I can put you in touch.
posted by ActionPopulated at 5:02 AM on July 16, 2014 [1 favorite]

Ahha. Oh, we get snow and seasons. Perhaps not quite in the frequency and intensity that you may be used to (ask me about being a very young 20-something, moving to Salt Lake City, and going 'It's snowing. In October. What am I doing here?'), but we got slammed this past winter along with everyone else. :) I can't speak to the rest of the south, but we get 4 season weather here (middle of NC); there's nothing better than fall around here with the leaves turning and the weather cooling off.

I have sung the praises of my city before, and if you want to know more about the place, you can memail me. The NPR affiliate is over in Winston, which is an easy drive (though Winston is turning into a really nice place to be, too). Greensboro is only walkable in neighborhoods, not as an overall city, and public transit sucks, but it's a pretty bikeable city. It's the kind of place that you could share a car pretty easily with a roommate/partner if you arranged your life carefully. Honestly, you sound like a Guilford-alum-from-another-school to me, and I bet you'd find your people here pretty easily (and have I mentioned that the rent is cheap, especially compared to what you're likely used to? :) ) [I swear to bob that I don't work for the chamber of commerce; I just really love my city.]

Chapel Hill/Carrboro is one of the ground zeros of local music, and there's good public transit and walkability/bikeability, and an NPR affiliate. I hear, though I haven't lived there, that the local economy is pretty tight, though. It's medium level tight here, but if you can do retail/other jobs where you're on your feet (this is the difficulty my roommate is having), there's work (and there's other work too, it's just harder to get).

Nashville is really, really nice too.

Honestly, though, wherever you end up, you're likely to move again. So wherever you go, start the moving savings account for the next adventure. And if you're serious about public radio, as other folks have mentioned, start with the job search and then pick the place, and be willing to take on projects that are related but not exactly your niche. Good luck! :)
posted by joycehealy at 5:41 AM on July 16, 2014

We went to a school adjacent to a tiny town where a lot of students lived and loved the “punk shows in the basement, mason jar cocktails on the porch” way of life. Now that we’re out of school and back near urban density we can appreciate some of the great things about living in a city (lots of bars and restaurants, vibrant singles scene) and I want to see if we can meld the two together.


Mason jar cocktails on the porch is definitely the way of life here. Apart from the 3-4 months a year it's really too cold to sit out on the porch. Lots of bars and restaurants, yes. Good restaurants, too. Vibrant singles scene: To be honest, from what I hear from my single friends, maybe less so? But my single friends are in the "32 looking for LTR" zone, not the "25 looking to hang out" zone, so ymmv. Bike friendly, decidedly. Youth friendly, overwhelmingly. Diversity: not diverse relative to New York, but reasonably diverse relative to the country. It's not a place where you'll never encounter someone non-white. But if you're looking for a big, thriving African-American, Latino, or Jewish community, I think you'd find those are more on the "tight-knit but small" side here.

It's a very different place from New York or other big east coast cities, but a lot of people move here from there. I was one of them. Some, I would say most, thrive here. Others can't handle it and move back. You can't know for sure which you'll be in advance. But if you know natives, and you feel like they "seem like you," that's some evidence in favor.

By the way, I have lots of friends in Philadelphia, and it seems potentially like a good compromise for you too — big East Coast city, lots of high culture, but a human can afford to live there.
posted by escabeche at 6:42 AM on July 16, 2014

Chiming in to give my vote for Providence, RI. Has a thriving arts scene and is in close proximity to Boston. (I lived there for a bit and knew quite a few people who lived in Providence but commuted to Boston for work so there's that...without the high rents. Boston rivals NYC in that department).
posted by Shadow Boxer at 7:21 AM on July 16, 2014

Cleveland is definitely worth a thought (as a transplant, my experience seems to be vastly different than kathrynm, unless she's talking about the snow this last winter which was definitely hell). I live in the city (in a decidedly un-trendy neighborhood) and really like it. Lots of great food, booze, arts/ culture (world class art museum and orchestra) things to do, and very cheap price of living. The news industry is tough here, just like it is everywhere, although I imagine its markedly less tough than NYC. There are a large amount of nonprofits, and if you want to do science/healthcare adjacent work, there is a decent amount of work. The job market is tough, but better than where I grew up elsewhere in the rustbelt. Its getting more bikeable, and the public transportation is not bad depending on where you live and where you want to go. Its right on the lake and has a beautiful parks system.

The singles scene might be strange, though. Its kind of a marryin' town.
posted by anthropophagous at 8:16 AM on July 16, 2014 [1 favorite]

I'm going to be moving from a bigger more arts/music friendly city (Boston area) to a smaller city (St Louis) and while talking myself into it, this article really sold me on the merits of moving to a smaller city with a smaller artistic community. After only one visit to STL it was apparent that it is MUCH easier for artists to get shows there, which makes it much easier to gain a following, and more shows, and success, etc. More experience is huge. Also: such cheaper rent. you will have SO much more disposable income!

I would recommend STL although I haven't moved there quite yet :) Unbelievably cheap apartments and offices/creative work type spaces, various interesting neighborhoods to choose from, proximity to Chicago, a smaller scene for you to take by storm!
posted by ghostbikes at 1:02 PM on July 16, 2014

It seems to me that you may be best served in different places. You should go wherever you can get some public radio experience, and he should go where there are enough classically focused musicians for him to have a community. I'm not sure where that is, but info about the punk or whatever scene in a place won't help you figure that out. Maybe a place with a conservatory (Oberlin?)

In any case, Greensboro is definitely not the place for you guys. I grew up in Houston and have also lived in Denver, and now live in Greensboro, and it is SMALL and conservative and kind of boring.

If you've got big dreams that don't involve aircraft interior manufacturing, look elsewhere.
posted by jeoc at 2:15 PM on July 16, 2014

I live near Detroit and recently visited Pittsburgh for the first time. I was really impressed and it's nowhere near as bad as Detroit. Whoever told you Pittsburgh was a wasteland was really wrong. Nice town, nice people, seemed to have a decent job market. If I was looking to move, it would be on my list.

I'd stay away from Michigan if you aren't looking to do the side-hustle thing while you get established. Ann Arbor is nice, but it's a small town - take away the University of Michigan student population, and it's only a town of 35,000 people. It's friendly and good for biking, but can be a bit precious.

Plus, Ann Arbor is open minded and liberal, but the state as a whole can be really conservative. There are a lot of Tea Party politicians in our state legislature.
posted by RogueTech at 7:24 PM on July 20, 2014

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