a new career in web design...or am I being led astray?
June 5, 2014 7:05 AM Subscribe
So the work atmosphere at my current employer has been fairly toxic the last year. Actually the well was poisoned several years back when the department manager's wife was promoted from a secretarial assistant to a management position but that episode of nepotism another surreal story I won't get into. The final straw was the moment they re-structured my position, thereby giving me a $45,000 pay-cut while simultaneously asking me to do more work.
I believe this led me to my current dire straits in my mid-career crisis in choosing whether I should embark on a totally new career opportunity or questionable legitimacy or whether I might be better off playing it safe.
Please read on below...
In any case, a co-worker and I conspired and made a pact to depart from our current employer with all due haste. Unfortunately, we, neither had success in out pursuits of a new job that would pay the same salary. This shouldn't be taken to mean we collect a particularly high salary. We don't.
Then one day he comes to me and he says, "I know what we're going to do. We're going to be Web Designers!". Though I was somewhat surprised by this suggestion and somewhat hesitant, he then proceeded to sell me on a plan of starting a web design business, and I was indeed intrigued.
By the end of this discussion I kept asking, "what's the catch?"
Let me shorten the narrative here by laying out the scenario proposed. As you might have guessed, I feel somewhat sceptical of the business plan and thus somewhat conflicted. Having figured that some of you might have experience in this field, I would like to enquire if this is in actuality a viable career option and sound business proposition as it was explained to me.
The scenario is as follows:
An acquaintance of my co-worker specialises in SEO and Marketing, as well as writing the content for businesses on their websites. He is currently under contract that will be expiring shortly and wants to do this enterprise on his own.
He proposes that we manage the clients for him after he does the initial sale and that we build the website and handle the revisions, while he handles the SEO and Content side. The business model entails that he signs the clients up on 6 month or yearly contracts. The business platform is run on Adobe Business Catalyst, which we can brand as our own service and then charge whatever he's sold the clients on per month. He says he's regularly been selling, well, I won't mention the prices but suffice it to say, people seem to be paying more in a month on one of these contracts than a lot of people pay in a one-off website deal altogether.
He proposes that in 4-6 months, he can net 20 clients, which would be enough for one of us to quit our job. The other of us would follow sometime in the 4 months. Now the only thing that makes me feel this is somewhat dubious is, my research shows me that a lot of people are not paying that much for website design these days and neither my co-worker nor myself have much (if any) real experience in web design.
So my first concern and question: Is this a real business model? How much will regular clients pay on a monthly basis for a website design with SEO and content? Could such a business support, say, 4 people, in a years time?
Second question, do I really have any business being in Web Design? I work in a creative industry but Design and/or web design is not what I've been practicing. I did actually build a number of simple flash sites in the early 2000's for a number of friends who were in bands at the time. I remember one friend who was a tour manager mentioning that I should get into that business and that he had a lot of bands he could refer my way. I turned him down, because it seemed like a lot of work while all I wanted to do was chill (I was young) and because although people seemed impressed but what I did, I didn't consider myself a real web designer.
Now, my co-worker and myself built one website so far, which we did in an attempt to get more free-lance jobs in our current industry. The SEO guy looked at it and said it was top-notch and he'd sell it as a high end site. It was basically a Parallax site done 100% in Muse. Neither of us Codes really. Though I'm sure I could still recall some basic HTML4 from my HTML class in 1998, when every one was using tables and frames instead of CSS and div layers, but rest assured, I'd be generally lost with todays web standards.
My worker friend says we can go it alone 90% in Muse and learn anything else we need to along the way. We are both generally smart and technical guys so I half-way believe him. As far as design, I have been quietly studying and researching design philosophy and techniques the past few months. If it helps, I always wanted to work in Graphic Design when I was a teenager in the 90's. My mom had Micrografx on her computer and I was like on that thing 5 or 6 hours a day. I'd make flyers for friends bands and political posters, things like Martin Luther King with swastika for a mouth with a caption saying "Ignorance is not Bliss", and then I'd secretly put it up all over my high school.
I didn't follow the career option of Graphic design because someone mistakenly told me I'd need to be able to draw really well to do that and despite the excess of art classes I took in High School, I was only good at modifying and adapting other's work as well as basic geometry, for my own designs. I loved the screen-printing shirts section of one art class. I did some wickedly intricate designs. We had like hundreds of magazines in the art store room (mostly Time and National Geographic) that I'd take elements from and trace onto paper and use for different stuff. My art teacher often criticised my work as non-original and subversive though and discouraged this. But anyway, I digress.
Suffice it to say, I have an interest in Design. I can't code much as it is now. With Tools like Muse, do I really need to be able to? As I understand it, most of the tools we need are available as modules in Business Catalyst. There are tools for pulling CSS from Photoshop and Adobe is coming up with more and more Design UI based apps like Muse Edge Re-flow, and Edge Animate to aid in the design process while minimising coding. Not to mention there are hundreds of free tutorials for Dreamweaver out there.
So my ultimate question here (which is now keeping me awake at nights) is do I take a chance and embark on this new career choice? I'm less than 2 years away from over the hill, so if I get this wrong, it could really spell disaster. It's a young persons industry out there.
Or do I play it safe and stick with my employer for as long as they'll have me?
I'd like to roll the dice and take a chance. I'm impulsive by nature. But I've got a mortgage of a half million dollars and a 15 month daughter to think of (and absolutely no savings!). I feel like I should be well advised on the viability of this potential career opportunity, especially at my age.
BTW, if you've read this far, thank you. I'm not known for my brevity and I know it can be a fault. Perhaps I should consider a career in writing?
In any case, a co-worker and I conspired and made a pact to depart from our current employer with all due haste. Unfortunately, we, neither had success in out pursuits of a new job that would pay the same salary. This shouldn't be taken to mean we collect a particularly high salary. We don't.
Then one day he comes to me and he says, "I know what we're going to do. We're going to be Web Designers!". Though I was somewhat surprised by this suggestion and somewhat hesitant, he then proceeded to sell me on a plan of starting a web design business, and I was indeed intrigued.
By the end of this discussion I kept asking, "what's the catch?"
Let me shorten the narrative here by laying out the scenario proposed. As you might have guessed, I feel somewhat sceptical of the business plan and thus somewhat conflicted. Having figured that some of you might have experience in this field, I would like to enquire if this is in actuality a viable career option and sound business proposition as it was explained to me.
The scenario is as follows:
An acquaintance of my co-worker specialises in SEO and Marketing, as well as writing the content for businesses on their websites. He is currently under contract that will be expiring shortly and wants to do this enterprise on his own.
He proposes that we manage the clients for him after he does the initial sale and that we build the website and handle the revisions, while he handles the SEO and Content side. The business model entails that he signs the clients up on 6 month or yearly contracts. The business platform is run on Adobe Business Catalyst, which we can brand as our own service and then charge whatever he's sold the clients on per month. He says he's regularly been selling, well, I won't mention the prices but suffice it to say, people seem to be paying more in a month on one of these contracts than a lot of people pay in a one-off website deal altogether.
He proposes that in 4-6 months, he can net 20 clients, which would be enough for one of us to quit our job. The other of us would follow sometime in the 4 months. Now the only thing that makes me feel this is somewhat dubious is, my research shows me that a lot of people are not paying that much for website design these days and neither my co-worker nor myself have much (if any) real experience in web design.
So my first concern and question: Is this a real business model? How much will regular clients pay on a monthly basis for a website design with SEO and content? Could such a business support, say, 4 people, in a years time?
Second question, do I really have any business being in Web Design? I work in a creative industry but Design and/or web design is not what I've been practicing. I did actually build a number of simple flash sites in the early 2000's for a number of friends who were in bands at the time. I remember one friend who was a tour manager mentioning that I should get into that business and that he had a lot of bands he could refer my way. I turned him down, because it seemed like a lot of work while all I wanted to do was chill (I was young) and because although people seemed impressed but what I did, I didn't consider myself a real web designer.
Now, my co-worker and myself built one website so far, which we did in an attempt to get more free-lance jobs in our current industry. The SEO guy looked at it and said it was top-notch and he'd sell it as a high end site. It was basically a Parallax site done 100% in Muse. Neither of us Codes really. Though I'm sure I could still recall some basic HTML4 from my HTML class in 1998, when every one was using tables and frames instead of CSS and div layers, but rest assured, I'd be generally lost with todays web standards.
My worker friend says we can go it alone 90% in Muse and learn anything else we need to along the way. We are both generally smart and technical guys so I half-way believe him. As far as design, I have been quietly studying and researching design philosophy and techniques the past few months. If it helps, I always wanted to work in Graphic Design when I was a teenager in the 90's. My mom had Micrografx on her computer and I was like on that thing 5 or 6 hours a day. I'd make flyers for friends bands and political posters, things like Martin Luther King with swastika for a mouth with a caption saying "Ignorance is not Bliss", and then I'd secretly put it up all over my high school.
I didn't follow the career option of Graphic design because someone mistakenly told me I'd need to be able to draw really well to do that and despite the excess of art classes I took in High School, I was only good at modifying and adapting other's work as well as basic geometry, for my own designs. I loved the screen-printing shirts section of one art class. I did some wickedly intricate designs. We had like hundreds of magazines in the art store room (mostly Time and National Geographic) that I'd take elements from and trace onto paper and use for different stuff. My art teacher often criticised my work as non-original and subversive though and discouraged this. But anyway, I digress.
Suffice it to say, I have an interest in Design. I can't code much as it is now. With Tools like Muse, do I really need to be able to? As I understand it, most of the tools we need are available as modules in Business Catalyst. There are tools for pulling CSS from Photoshop and Adobe is coming up with more and more Design UI based apps like Muse Edge Re-flow, and Edge Animate to aid in the design process while minimising coding. Not to mention there are hundreds of free tutorials for Dreamweaver out there.
So my ultimate question here (which is now keeping me awake at nights) is do I take a chance and embark on this new career choice? I'm less than 2 years away from over the hill, so if I get this wrong, it could really spell disaster. It's a young persons industry out there.
Or do I play it safe and stick with my employer for as long as they'll have me?
I'd like to roll the dice and take a chance. I'm impulsive by nature. But I've got a mortgage of a half million dollars and a 15 month daughter to think of (and absolutely no savings!). I feel like I should be well advised on the viability of this potential career opportunity, especially at my age.
BTW, if you've read this far, thank you. I'm not known for my brevity and I know it can be a fault. Perhaps I should consider a career in writing?
Three thoughts:
1) If you are currently in a position that could absorb a $45,000 pay cut, I do not think that entry-level web design is going to provide you with income you consider satisfactory.
2) Yes: it is a young person's game. Plenty of middle aged and older people do quite well, but succeeding would require that you dedicate the kind of time, continuing education, and ceaseless focus on new technology that can compete with twentysomethings who aren't two years from over the hill and probably don't have kids and a mortgage.
3) Running your own web design business has at least as much "running your own business" to it as it does graphic design. Are you comfortable hunting down new clients? Taking endless meetings and trifling notes? Staying on top of people to make sure you get paid?
Best of luck with whatever you choose.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 7:18 AM on June 5, 2014 [8 favorites]
1) If you are currently in a position that could absorb a $45,000 pay cut, I do not think that entry-level web design is going to provide you with income you consider satisfactory.
2) Yes: it is a young person's game. Plenty of middle aged and older people do quite well, but succeeding would require that you dedicate the kind of time, continuing education, and ceaseless focus on new technology that can compete with twentysomethings who aren't two years from over the hill and probably don't have kids and a mortgage.
3) Running your own web design business has at least as much "running your own business" to it as it does graphic design. Are you comfortable hunting down new clients? Taking endless meetings and trifling notes? Staying on top of people to make sure you get paid?
Best of luck with whatever you choose.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 7:18 AM on June 5, 2014 [8 favorites]
You say:
"He says he's regularly been selling, well, I won't mention the prices but suffice it to say, people seem to be paying more in a month on one of these contracts than a lot of people pay in a one-off website deal altogether."
and
"He proposes that in 4-6 months, he can net 20 clients, which would be enough for one of us to quit our job."
To me that says you're dealing with clients that are paying maybe a couple of hundred per month? This sounds like you'll be taking a minimum-wage job. I won't pretend to understand your motivation, because if I had gotten a $45k pay cut I would have been gone so fast they wouldn't have finished telling me about it.
Look for a different job. See if you can get a temporary contract (6 month) somewhere else. In the meantime, do this new job on the side and decide if you like it, and if it can bring in the money you want.
posted by blue_beetle at 7:50 AM on June 5, 2014 [2 favorites]
"He says he's regularly been selling, well, I won't mention the prices but suffice it to say, people seem to be paying more in a month on one of these contracts than a lot of people pay in a one-off website deal altogether."
and
"He proposes that in 4-6 months, he can net 20 clients, which would be enough for one of us to quit our job."
To me that says you're dealing with clients that are paying maybe a couple of hundred per month? This sounds like you'll be taking a minimum-wage job. I won't pretend to understand your motivation, because if I had gotten a $45k pay cut I would have been gone so fast they wouldn't have finished telling me about it.
Look for a different job. See if you can get a temporary contract (6 month) somewhere else. In the meantime, do this new job on the side and decide if you like it, and if it can bring in the money you want.
posted by blue_beetle at 7:50 AM on June 5, 2014 [2 favorites]
1) If you are currently in a position that could absorb a $45,000 pay cut, I do not think that entry-level web design is going to provide you with income you consider satisfactory.
QFT!
posted by missmagenta at 8:02 AM on June 5, 2014 [3 favorites]
QFT!
posted by missmagenta at 8:02 AM on June 5, 2014 [3 favorites]
Response by poster: Opps! That was a typo. I meant to say a $5000 Pay-cut, not a $45,000 pay-cut. Somehow, the Shift-4 for $ got in there as a 4 as well as the $. To be exact I make 57,000 where as I was making 62,000 four years ago. Five years ago I was making 67,000. It's been a downward trend. Where I was once considered a specialist, they have now re-structured my job to a lower band. I have thought about giving my notice several time over but until I get something else, they kind of have me.
The price mentioned was clients willing to spend either $500 per month or $1000 per month. I said my minimum salary was 62,000. The SEO guy said it was totally doable.
As to finding clients, that's the SEO guy. He's pitched himself as a sales person. He just wants to find and sell clients and let us handle the client management and web design.
posted by cicadaverse at 9:10 AM on June 5, 2014 [1 favorite]
The price mentioned was clients willing to spend either $500 per month or $1000 per month. I said my minimum salary was 62,000. The SEO guy said it was totally doable.
As to finding clients, that's the SEO guy. He's pitched himself as a sales person. He just wants to find and sell clients and let us handle the client management and web design.
posted by cicadaverse at 9:10 AM on June 5, 2014 [1 favorite]
Best answer: You don't have to code to put together a WP or Muse site. But as soon as the client says, "oh and I want to add a youtube video here and take off comments on the posts in the cooking category" then you need to be able to quickly dig into the code and make the changes you need. Doing that would take an experienced developer about 15 minutes. For someone who's never coded before, it could take all day.
It might be that you need to work on having a group of developers that you could send the complex parts and so could get by that way.
I don't think there's anything wrong with going down this path but give yourself 6 months or a year before you make any firm commitments or quit your job or anything like that to make sure it's really going to pan out. One website under your belt is definitely not enough to go on.
posted by dawkins_7 at 9:12 AM on June 5, 2014 [3 favorites]
It might be that you need to work on having a group of developers that you could send the complex parts and so could get by that way.
I don't think there's anything wrong with going down this path but give yourself 6 months or a year before you make any firm commitments or quit your job or anything like that to make sure it's really going to pan out. One website under your belt is definitely not enough to go on.
posted by dawkins_7 at 9:12 AM on June 5, 2014 [3 favorites]
Your correction makes a big difference! Making $62K to start is probably not going to happen but it's possible within a few years.
Datapoint: I am a web developer with 18 years of experience. If I were to quit my job today, I'd probably be able to make only $35-$40K the first year. And I could do that because I have a lot of contacts and do a lot of freelance work alongside my day job.
It takes time to build up enough business when you're freelancing (or starting a new company).
posted by dawkins_7 at 9:15 AM on June 5, 2014
Datapoint: I am a web developer with 18 years of experience. If I were to quit my job today, I'd probably be able to make only $35-$40K the first year. And I could do that because I have a lot of contacts and do a lot of freelance work alongside my day job.
It takes time to build up enough business when you're freelancing (or starting a new company).
posted by dawkins_7 at 9:15 AM on June 5, 2014
I'm in the process of launching/running a web dev company with my wife because we both know the trades involved and she doesn't want a "real job." In that context it's doing what we wanted it to do, but it is NOT a business where you get rich (or even create a steady revenue stream) quick and consistently.
posted by randomkeystrike at 9:16 AM on June 5, 2014
posted by randomkeystrike at 9:16 AM on June 5, 2014
Response by poster: @dawkins_7
Thanks. I think you are absolutely right about the developer side and this confirms my hesitations about jumping into this game. I think part of my doubt has always been about the coding side. I mean, you can't be an architectect based solely upon astethics. You need the whole engineering side as well, right?
I'm definitely suggest to my co-worker that if he thinks it's right that he takes the first plunge in 4-6 months. I'll follow about 4 months after he does if all works out. In the mean time, I'm going to learn as much about web design and coding that I can!
posted by cicadaverse at 9:19 AM on June 5, 2014
Thanks. I think you are absolutely right about the developer side and this confirms my hesitations about jumping into this game. I think part of my doubt has always been about the coding side. I mean, you can't be an architectect based solely upon astethics. You need the whole engineering side as well, right?
I'm definitely suggest to my co-worker that if he thinks it's right that he takes the first plunge in 4-6 months. I'll follow about 4 months after he does if all works out. In the mean time, I'm going to learn as much about web design and coding that I can!
posted by cicadaverse at 9:19 AM on June 5, 2014
I sell web design for a living. 20 clients in 4-6 months sounds very optimistic to me. If by high end you mean corporate clients sending real money on their web infrastructure, most of them will take 4-6 months to make a decision, then another 4-6 months of meetings to actually get the site built. So unless he has a plan to bring clients from the current gig, which get ugly and litigious quickly, I don't see the growth happening that quick.
You might be able to stir up 20 small biz clients that quickly, but their won't be enough revenue to go around. If you want to give it a shot do it on the side for a while first.
posted by COD at 9:24 AM on June 5, 2014 [7 favorites]
You might be able to stir up 20 small biz clients that quickly, but their won't be enough revenue to go around. If you want to give it a shot do it on the side for a while first.
posted by COD at 9:24 AM on June 5, 2014 [7 favorites]
I mean, you can't be an architectect based solely upon astethics. You need the whole engineering side as well, right?
Actually, you can. You can just do graphic design and set up the basic site - that will probably get you 80% there. Then have someone else do the code for what's left (think forms or data collection of any kind, password protected areas, etc.).
When I first started out, graphic designers and coders were completely separate. Nowadays, there are some young whippersnappers who are good at both but it's still more common to find people who do one or the other with just a little bit of overlap (a coder who can take a Photoshop file and create the CSS styles based on that or a designer who could create the HTML structure of the site but nothing that requires javascript, etc.)
And are you thinking you would build and deliver 20 sites in a month? That's the type of workload that a web design shop with 10-15 employees would have a hard time keeping up with. (I've worked in those sweatshops and it was not fun.) Not only would you need designers and coders, you'd also need project managers who keep everyone on track and work on getting the content from the clients (which can be the hardest part of the whole thing).
The thing is, you can probably easily make up the $5,000 pay cut by doing this on the side. So maybe you do it for a year and see how you like it and then go and get a job at a web design firm and go from there. But I wouldn't quit your current job based on what these guys are saying.
posted by dawkins_7 at 9:38 AM on June 5, 2014 [1 favorite]
Actually, you can. You can just do graphic design and set up the basic site - that will probably get you 80% there. Then have someone else do the code for what's left (think forms or data collection of any kind, password protected areas, etc.).
When I first started out, graphic designers and coders were completely separate. Nowadays, there are some young whippersnappers who are good at both but it's still more common to find people who do one or the other with just a little bit of overlap (a coder who can take a Photoshop file and create the CSS styles based on that or a designer who could create the HTML structure of the site but nothing that requires javascript, etc.)
And are you thinking you would build and deliver 20 sites in a month? That's the type of workload that a web design shop with 10-15 employees would have a hard time keeping up with. (I've worked in those sweatshops and it was not fun.) Not only would you need designers and coders, you'd also need project managers who keep everyone on track and work on getting the content from the clients (which can be the hardest part of the whole thing).
The thing is, you can probably easily make up the $5,000 pay cut by doing this on the side. So maybe you do it for a year and see how you like it and then go and get a job at a web design firm and go from there. But I wouldn't quit your current job based on what these guys are saying.
posted by dawkins_7 at 9:38 AM on June 5, 2014 [1 favorite]
One of the most difficult parts of running your own web design company is that clients will bring in expectations and demands that would seem ridiculous to them in any other arena. Imagine being an architect if clients had no idea why four story mansions cost more than two bedroom cottages... or thought it was reasonable to ask you to build three or four homes and then they'd choose and pay for the one they like best... or came to you as you were completing the final paint touch ups and said they'd just driven past a houseboat and now they think they would like that instead... People do the equivalent to independent web designers all the time. ALL THE TIME.
You would/will have to be prepared for that.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 9:39 AM on June 5, 2014 [14 favorites]
You would/will have to be prepared for that.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 9:39 AM on June 5, 2014 [14 favorites]
As to finding clients, that's the SEO guy. He's pitched himself as a sales person.
The second part of that is a warning. He's telling you what he thinks you want to hear so you'll buy his idea.
I can't stress this enough. He is a salesman. He is selling you something. He is not giving you the whole story, and he is exaggerating what's possible re: clients and money to sell you his idea.
Also, he's going to sell the clients a bunch of features and functionality he doesn't understand, that you can't deliver, without charging a reasonable amount for it or extending the deadlines.
Small clients are a pain in the ass - they behave in ways that escalate costs rapidly, but they don't have the money to pay for the increased costs. They are unwilling or unable to change their behavior to control costs and they get insulted if you suggest they do.
Big clients will be looking for full-service, meaning design and development. They won't hire your firm just to design. Unless you become a developer or partner with one you won't get big jobs.
Everyone in the word thinks they can be a designer. This is not meant to question your talents - this is meant to warn you that the people who will hire you won't really value or respect what you do, because they think it's trivial. They also don't respect developers but for different reasons (they don't think they could do the job in the same way they think they could be designers, they just don't comprehend the work and they think it's merely pushing a magic button on the computer, i.e. they think it's trivial).
As a beginner you'd have to be extraordinarily lucky to jump over that into the kind of client base the salesman is seducing you with. It's much more likely you'll have to slog through the same bullshit everyone else does in the field.
tl:dr - this is a bad path to take to leave your current job. Minor possibility he's not, but if I had $100 to bet I'd put it on "The SEO guy is full of shit" without hesitation.
posted by under_petticoat_rule at 10:02 AM on June 5, 2014 [4 favorites]
The second part of that is a warning. He's telling you what he thinks you want to hear so you'll buy his idea.
I can't stress this enough. He is a salesman. He is selling you something. He is not giving you the whole story, and he is exaggerating what's possible re: clients and money to sell you his idea.
Also, he's going to sell the clients a bunch of features and functionality he doesn't understand, that you can't deliver, without charging a reasonable amount for it or extending the deadlines.
Small clients are a pain in the ass - they behave in ways that escalate costs rapidly, but they don't have the money to pay for the increased costs. They are unwilling or unable to change their behavior to control costs and they get insulted if you suggest they do.
Big clients will be looking for full-service, meaning design and development. They won't hire your firm just to design. Unless you become a developer or partner with one you won't get big jobs.
Everyone in the word thinks they can be a designer. This is not meant to question your talents - this is meant to warn you that the people who will hire you won't really value or respect what you do, because they think it's trivial. They also don't respect developers but for different reasons (they don't think they could do the job in the same way they think they could be designers, they just don't comprehend the work and they think it's merely pushing a magic button on the computer, i.e. they think it's trivial).
As a beginner you'd have to be extraordinarily lucky to jump over that into the kind of client base the salesman is seducing you with. It's much more likely you'll have to slog through the same bullshit everyone else does in the field.
tl:dr - this is a bad path to take to leave your current job. Minor possibility he's not, but if I had $100 to bet I'd put it on "The SEO guy is full of shit" without hesitation.
posted by under_petticoat_rule at 10:02 AM on June 5, 2014 [4 favorites]
As Dawkins_7 put it, I'm a "young whippersnapper" front-end dev, who came at things from a design background. I'm currently employed but freelanced out of college.
Freelancing is hard. $62k in income? You take an automatic 7% paycut from self-employment taxes. Not to mention healthcare, and retirement contributions. And you can say goodbye to the idea of a 40hr work week, at least for several years.
As to not knowing how to code? Yeah, it pains me deeply to say it, but plenty of people do this. I've encountered websites that were entirely image maps, generated by photoshop. I've been handed over legacy code that was made with frontpage or even MS Word that was such junk. To continue the architecture metaphors, it's like walking into a house where the walls were made with cake frosting and toothpicks instead of wood and plaster, and being asked to add a window to the wall. Then imagine explaining why it isn't possible to a client that doesn't know the difference between a 2x4 and a toothpick!
And then I think back to the first few sites I made for clients. Fortunately due to the ephemeral nature of the web, few are still up, but I would be pretty embarrassed. You do need to learn somehow, and at least you're not a tattoo artist or something. First pancake and all.
Anywho, I think your best course of action is to try and pursue this as a side job. Read as much about current best practices as you can. HTML/CSS/JQuery are not particularly difficult to learn, it's applying those skills correctly. If your client base doesn't know the difference? Well, thats to your advantage.
posted by fontophilic at 10:05 AM on June 5, 2014 [3 favorites]
Freelancing is hard. $62k in income? You take an automatic 7% paycut from self-employment taxes. Not to mention healthcare, and retirement contributions. And you can say goodbye to the idea of a 40hr work week, at least for several years.
As to not knowing how to code? Yeah, it pains me deeply to say it, but plenty of people do this. I've encountered websites that were entirely image maps, generated by photoshop. I've been handed over legacy code that was made with frontpage or even MS Word that was such junk. To continue the architecture metaphors, it's like walking into a house where the walls were made with cake frosting and toothpicks instead of wood and plaster, and being asked to add a window to the wall. Then imagine explaining why it isn't possible to a client that doesn't know the difference between a 2x4 and a toothpick!
And then I think back to the first few sites I made for clients. Fortunately due to the ephemeral nature of the web, few are still up, but I would be pretty embarrassed. You do need to learn somehow, and at least you're not a tattoo artist or something. First pancake and all.
Anywho, I think your best course of action is to try and pursue this as a side job. Read as much about current best practices as you can. HTML/CSS/JQuery are not particularly difficult to learn, it's applying those skills correctly. If your client base doesn't know the difference? Well, thats to your advantage.
posted by fontophilic at 10:05 AM on June 5, 2014 [3 favorites]
Work the math backwards: $62k, lets say for both of you, so $125K/yr means that you need a new recurring client signed up, paying, and their site built, pretty much every day for the next 6-12months. You should be getting paid extra, too, for health insurance and the quarterly taxes you have to pay. Maybe consider a possibility that the sites themselves should be a separate charge of like $5-10K each.
posted by rhizome at 10:49 AM on June 5, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by rhizome at 10:49 AM on June 5, 2014 [1 favorite]
As people say, it's very hard to find well-paying freelance work. I've been a web developer for 15 years and I stick with an office job because I don't fancy trying to support myself off people who want to pay $12/hr because that's what a random Moldovan they found online would do it for.
Obviously it's possible and people do it, but they spend years building up their client list.
Also, the term "Web designer" is not really a term that is in use anymore. When the whole field was kind of new there was a lot of confusion about what the roles were so people used that to mean "someone who can throw together a site that works and doesn't look too bad." Personally, I know how to open Photoshop and pick colors that don't look awful together, but I would never call myself a "designer." I can throw something together but it's not going to be in the same ballpark as something from a serious designer who went to art school. Typically a developer and designer would work together in order to produce a site that works both technically and visually.
Nowadays people are a graphic designer who happens to work on websites, or they are a developer (programmer). There is *some* overlap, like people who are designers but can do a bit of css to customize a Wordpress install, but basically they're two very opposite paths.
posted by drjimmy11 at 11:20 AM on June 5, 2014 [2 favorites]
Obviously it's possible and people do it, but they spend years building up their client list.
Also, the term "Web designer" is not really a term that is in use anymore. When the whole field was kind of new there was a lot of confusion about what the roles were so people used that to mean "someone who can throw together a site that works and doesn't look too bad." Personally, I know how to open Photoshop and pick colors that don't look awful together, but I would never call myself a "designer." I can throw something together but it's not going to be in the same ballpark as something from a serious designer who went to art school. Typically a developer and designer would work together in order to produce a site that works both technically and visually.
Nowadays people are a graphic designer who happens to work on websites, or they are a developer (programmer). There is *some* overlap, like people who are designers but can do a bit of css to customize a Wordpress install, but basically they're two very opposite paths.
posted by drjimmy11 at 11:20 AM on June 5, 2014 [2 favorites]
To start a company you would need to already be adept at your skill, not learning a new skill. You would need to have a reputation and contacts. Reputation and recommendations from clients will get you so much further than sales / marketing for something like this where clients will be putting trust in you to deliver for them. Even with all that said you are over estimating how quickly you will succeed. You will need savings which you don't have. Having enough work to support you and the salesperson is unlikely (4 is less likely), and the sales person seems suspicious. They do sales and SEO, the two most slimey professions combined into one person? One of you will quit your job—that should be clarified who! You have to be careful to be on a path for premium pricing versus competing on price. Going it alone and having the reputation makes premium pricing possible, but having employees and depending on sales is a way longer road than you think. You also don't seem to realize how much time will be design and how much will be business / not billable. Only 1/2 your time will be billable.
Your age is not a problem, but everything else you say is worrisome and it seems like you are grasping for a better situation than your current job. Keep your job, learn more skills and get some clients on the side to build your experience and reputation.
Look up the book Design is a Job.
Good luck.
(For context, I have a graphic design degree, but changed careers to IT. I am sole proprietor of my company which I started 4 years ago.)
posted by ridogi at 1:59 AM on June 6, 2014 [1 favorite]
Your age is not a problem, but everything else you say is worrisome and it seems like you are grasping for a better situation than your current job. Keep your job, learn more skills and get some clients on the side to build your experience and reputation.
Look up the book Design is a Job.
Good luck.
(For context, I have a graphic design degree, but changed careers to IT. I am sole proprietor of my company which I started 4 years ago.)
posted by ridogi at 1:59 AM on June 6, 2014 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Thanks everyone so much for your replies. I had to get to sleep last night before a lot of these came in but so many are great answers that I wish I could mark a few of them as best answer.
And thanks for putting up with my rambling. 2 Litres of Pepsi and a $7 bottle of wine fuelled that a bit beyond what was reasonable, even for me.
I've learned a lot and I had a talk with my potential partner. He's going to be the first to quit the job and give it a go. I made it clear that I'm not leaving my job unless my salary can be matched.
I do think there is a bit of fake it until you make it kind of mentality in this plan but I think I have nothing to lose up front if I do it on the side (other than time and energy).
There are a lot of red flags and things to be skeptical of for sure. I'll play it safe until I see that it's actually a viable option. I think after six months I should be able to judge if the business model is too optimistic or not, as well as the time-table. If it's not, I'll just stay at my job.
The sales guy has a background in marketing and assures us he is doing this business model right now for someone else but that his contract will be up soon and he wants to give this a try on his own. He'll be the first to step into this with no other employment and he says he's totally confident the money will come. He mentioned he's paying his current web designer $1000 per page (who charges per page? is that a thing?) but that designer is only interested in mainly doing one off jobs and doesn't want the hassle of continuing revisions, which he says is not really working out for the long-term contracts. he's more focused on recurring, regular business with clients on contracts. The focus is marketing and SEO, content writing, social media management, as well as actual website package. We also want to offer corporate videos and maybe get into doing some ads for these clients, which is good as that ties in with my current career skill set. So I think we are looking at selling ourselves as a creative agency that can boost web presence, etc...
As far as the skill-set side of things go, I feel pretty confident I can learn a lot of what I need to. I know the rest will only come when presented with the challenge. I'm going to start getting into that soon. I'm sure it will be some long and unpaid hours in any case.
I think if this was just about going into freelance Web Design, I'd probably turn it down. But it seems like it's more about building up our own company with more employees in the future, where ideally I would, in time, focus more on Design and Project Management. We all have a lot of contacts in the creative industry (aside from web) so I think it sounds like something I'll give a go while playing it safe.
I also just remembered I have an old friend who does some web development so I might reach out to him on FB and ask for some advice as well.
Again, thanks all for your wonderful advice and thoughts and sharing your experience on this. I appreciate it very much. For some of you, it sounds a bit like you're saying, don't do this. Ha. I'd probably tell someone interested in getting into my field the very same thing. But seeing as I already have a technical job that demands long hours with little appreciation and less pay every year, I might as well take a dip into this. Oh, and to be clear, though I've had my share of burn out, I don't hate what I do at all. It can actually be nice a lot of the time. It's just the atmosphere has been so negative the last year and the lack of respect and daily hostility now is just taking it's tolls on me where I'm having trouble with leaving that vibe behind when I come home. I think I need to move on in any case.
thanks again everyone.
posted by cicadaverse at 2:35 AM on June 6, 2014
And thanks for putting up with my rambling. 2 Litres of Pepsi and a $7 bottle of wine fuelled that a bit beyond what was reasonable, even for me.
I've learned a lot and I had a talk with my potential partner. He's going to be the first to quit the job and give it a go. I made it clear that I'm not leaving my job unless my salary can be matched.
I do think there is a bit of fake it until you make it kind of mentality in this plan but I think I have nothing to lose up front if I do it on the side (other than time and energy).
There are a lot of red flags and things to be skeptical of for sure. I'll play it safe until I see that it's actually a viable option. I think after six months I should be able to judge if the business model is too optimistic or not, as well as the time-table. If it's not, I'll just stay at my job.
The sales guy has a background in marketing and assures us he is doing this business model right now for someone else but that his contract will be up soon and he wants to give this a try on his own. He'll be the first to step into this with no other employment and he says he's totally confident the money will come. He mentioned he's paying his current web designer $1000 per page (who charges per page? is that a thing?) but that designer is only interested in mainly doing one off jobs and doesn't want the hassle of continuing revisions, which he says is not really working out for the long-term contracts. he's more focused on recurring, regular business with clients on contracts. The focus is marketing and SEO, content writing, social media management, as well as actual website package. We also want to offer corporate videos and maybe get into doing some ads for these clients, which is good as that ties in with my current career skill set. So I think we are looking at selling ourselves as a creative agency that can boost web presence, etc...
As far as the skill-set side of things go, I feel pretty confident I can learn a lot of what I need to. I know the rest will only come when presented with the challenge. I'm going to start getting into that soon. I'm sure it will be some long and unpaid hours in any case.
I think if this was just about going into freelance Web Design, I'd probably turn it down. But it seems like it's more about building up our own company with more employees in the future, where ideally I would, in time, focus more on Design and Project Management. We all have a lot of contacts in the creative industry (aside from web) so I think it sounds like something I'll give a go while playing it safe.
I also just remembered I have an old friend who does some web development so I might reach out to him on FB and ask for some advice as well.
Again, thanks all for your wonderful advice and thoughts and sharing your experience on this. I appreciate it very much. For some of you, it sounds a bit like you're saying, don't do this. Ha. I'd probably tell someone interested in getting into my field the very same thing. But seeing as I already have a technical job that demands long hours with little appreciation and less pay every year, I might as well take a dip into this. Oh, and to be clear, though I've had my share of burn out, I don't hate what I do at all. It can actually be nice a lot of the time. It's just the atmosphere has been so negative the last year and the lack of respect and daily hostility now is just taking it's tolls on me where I'm having trouble with leaving that vibe behind when I come home. I think I need to move on in any case.
thanks again everyone.
posted by cicadaverse at 2:35 AM on June 6, 2014
Honestly, this reads to me like a Walter Mitty fantasy.
You freely admit that you have little knowledge of current techniques, but yet want to jump into a crowded field with plenty of professionals. It feels like "I want to quit my job and win the Boston marathon next week because it would be awesome, I don't really like my job right now, and I did do a lot of running back in grade school..."
Plus, maybe it's me, but when I hear the term "SEO" [search engine optimization] mentioned, I flash back to 1998--it's a term that just screams "16-year-old synonym for 'scam!'" to me.
With the amount of money SquareSpace is pouring into advertising their "drag-and-drop, easily build your own website" stuff, I think no average Joes are going to be hiring you via your contacts "company". Larger companies are going to have you to meetings where the I.T. lady is going to float acronym-laden questions past you and when you pause because you don't understand what she's saying, the jig is going to embarrassingly be up.
But honestly, this just seems like a pipe-dream scam this guy is running--I'd be interested in talking to a couple of the people who he's regularly paying "$1000 per page". It just seems like scam via Mad-Libs. It reminds me of how excited my friends 18-year-old son was because he got a badly worded spam email about how they could connect him with a "secret shopper" job where he would make $200 per day. Take a guess how legit that was.
Do not leave a regular job and health care for this.
posted by blueberry at 7:59 AM on June 6, 2014 [2 favorites]
You freely admit that you have little knowledge of current techniques, but yet want to jump into a crowded field with plenty of professionals. It feels like "I want to quit my job and win the Boston marathon next week because it would be awesome, I don't really like my job right now, and I did do a lot of running back in grade school..."
Plus, maybe it's me, but when I hear the term "SEO" [search engine optimization] mentioned, I flash back to 1998--it's a term that just screams "16-year-old synonym for 'scam!'" to me.
With the amount of money SquareSpace is pouring into advertising their "drag-and-drop, easily build your own website" stuff, I think no average Joes are going to be hiring you via your contacts "company". Larger companies are going to have you to meetings where the I.T. lady is going to float acronym-laden questions past you and when you pause because you don't understand what she's saying, the jig is going to embarrassingly be up.
But honestly, this just seems like a pipe-dream scam this guy is running--I'd be interested in talking to a couple of the people who he's regularly paying "$1000 per page". It just seems like scam via Mad-Libs. It reminds me of how excited my friends 18-year-old son was because he got a badly worded spam email about how they could connect him with a "secret shopper" job where he would make $200 per day. Take a guess how legit that was.
Do not leave a regular job and health care for this.
posted by blueberry at 7:59 AM on June 6, 2014 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: Honestly, this reads to me like a Walter Mitty fantasy.
You freely admit that you have little knowledge of current techniques, but yet want to jump into a crowded field with plenty of professionals. It feels like "I want to quit my job and win the Boston marathon next week because it would be awesome, I don't really like my job right now, and I did do a lot of running back in grade school..."
Interesting point of view. I need people like you to keep me grounded for sure. I'm still going to give it a try and see where it gets me. Negativity doesn't produce and 'not trying' surely won't get me anywhere. I've been somewhat complacent for the last 7 years and I've only gone downhill in that time.
It's possible the market may be different where I'm at than where you experience lies in. As for acronyms passed on by IT ladies...I'm sure I could just send them back a few of my own Acronyms to confuse them (some of them might even be real). But seriously, My co-worker friend and I are both pretty smart guys. I think we can handle the IT department's buzz words of the month.
And yeah, I never cared much for SEO but I think it's still relevant. Businesses want to show up in the first page or two of google if they can and if they are willing to pay for that, there's always going to be a market for that. I know Google has tried to make the game more fair for everyone but people are still always going to want to know how to get the best odds on it.
In any case, I've told the guys I won't be leaving my job until I can get a decent salary in replacement. Healthcare is irrelevant where I live. Though I might miss the four week paid holiday and 2 weeks sick leave that comes with my employer. But in any case, I'm going to play safe and if it's a folly, it'll show itself as such soon enough and surely before I quit my job.
posted by cicadaverse at 8:26 AM on June 6, 2014
You freely admit that you have little knowledge of current techniques, but yet want to jump into a crowded field with plenty of professionals. It feels like "I want to quit my job and win the Boston marathon next week because it would be awesome, I don't really like my job right now, and I did do a lot of running back in grade school..."
Interesting point of view. I need people like you to keep me grounded for sure. I'm still going to give it a try and see where it gets me. Negativity doesn't produce and 'not trying' surely won't get me anywhere. I've been somewhat complacent for the last 7 years and I've only gone downhill in that time.
It's possible the market may be different where I'm at than where you experience lies in. As for acronyms passed on by IT ladies...I'm sure I could just send them back a few of my own Acronyms to confuse them (some of them might even be real). But seriously, My co-worker friend and I are both pretty smart guys. I think we can handle the IT department's buzz words of the month.
And yeah, I never cared much for SEO but I think it's still relevant. Businesses want to show up in the first page or two of google if they can and if they are willing to pay for that, there's always going to be a market for that. I know Google has tried to make the game more fair for everyone but people are still always going to want to know how to get the best odds on it.
In any case, I've told the guys I won't be leaving my job until I can get a decent salary in replacement. Healthcare is irrelevant where I live. Though I might miss the four week paid holiday and 2 weeks sick leave that comes with my employer. But in any case, I'm going to play safe and if it's a folly, it'll show itself as such soon enough and surely before I quit my job.
posted by cicadaverse at 8:26 AM on June 6, 2014
Response by poster: I got a "follow-up" message from metafilter reminding me I still hadn't marked this as resolved and suggesting I might like to update it...So I thought, yeah, why not.
The update is, the SEO guy totally bailed on us. We were about 2 weeks away from "GO" when he suddenly calls and says he's got 2 major contracts he's going to take so, unfortunately, he can't help us out right now. I like how he phrased it as though we were asking for his help in this endeavour when the whole thing was his idea and concept.
Meanwhile, my friend in the states just started a Video SEO training company and is happy to provide me with training for that. I'm interested but I'm not sure how much of a market there is here for that locally.
I looked in the SEO/content marketing thing. Most of it seems kind of straight-forward, but to be honest, a lot of it doesn't interest me, or at least not as my focus area. However, I have really become interested in Web Design and Front-end development the last month. I spend most of my nights reading, experimenting and doing tutorials for that. I've actually booked a 3 week vacation now solely for the purpose of having more time to study it.
I am fascinated by design and application with regards to UI and functionality. I'm also fascinated just by learning something new and I've downloaded just about every book on HTML, CSS, Jquery, etc..as I'm determined to learn the skills to do this kind of stuff.
My friend and I picked up a small job for a friend doing a $1000 website. We've probably put 50 hours + into it so far but I'm really loving the experience.
I think this career may appeal to me. Is it too late me for me to switch careers at the age of 39? I don't know but I'm going to try.
As for the company, we're still calling it that. We'll see if we can get more jobs to add to this first one. The biggest challenge I see is trying to find clients. I'm not a sales person and I'm not sure how to network or where to look for new clients. But if we could manage that, I'm fully ready to quit the job and go for this new career.
As it is, I am still being realistic and practical. I'll keep the full-time job and treat this a a learning period in which I can try to up-skill and get to a place where I can do what I want to get into in the near future...
Oh, and any advice about how to get a better foothold in this industry would greatly be appreciated!
posted by cicadaverse at 9:17 AM on July 6, 2014
The update is, the SEO guy totally bailed on us. We were about 2 weeks away from "GO" when he suddenly calls and says he's got 2 major contracts he's going to take so, unfortunately, he can't help us out right now. I like how he phrased it as though we were asking for his help in this endeavour when the whole thing was his idea and concept.
Meanwhile, my friend in the states just started a Video SEO training company and is happy to provide me with training for that. I'm interested but I'm not sure how much of a market there is here for that locally.
I looked in the SEO/content marketing thing. Most of it seems kind of straight-forward, but to be honest, a lot of it doesn't interest me, or at least not as my focus area. However, I have really become interested in Web Design and Front-end development the last month. I spend most of my nights reading, experimenting and doing tutorials for that. I've actually booked a 3 week vacation now solely for the purpose of having more time to study it.
I am fascinated by design and application with regards to UI and functionality. I'm also fascinated just by learning something new and I've downloaded just about every book on HTML, CSS, Jquery, etc..as I'm determined to learn the skills to do this kind of stuff.
My friend and I picked up a small job for a friend doing a $1000 website. We've probably put 50 hours + into it so far but I'm really loving the experience.
I think this career may appeal to me. Is it too late me for me to switch careers at the age of 39? I don't know but I'm going to try.
As for the company, we're still calling it that. We'll see if we can get more jobs to add to this first one. The biggest challenge I see is trying to find clients. I'm not a sales person and I'm not sure how to network or where to look for new clients. But if we could manage that, I'm fully ready to quit the job and go for this new career.
As it is, I am still being realistic and practical. I'll keep the full-time job and treat this a a learning period in which I can try to up-skill and get to a place where I can do what I want to get into in the near future...
Oh, and any advice about how to get a better foothold in this industry would greatly be appreciated!
posted by cicadaverse at 9:17 AM on July 6, 2014
This thread is closed to new comments.
Would I quit a job with benefits to chase this guy down the rabbit hole, no.
Keep looking for better gigs.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 7:09 AM on June 5, 2014 [6 favorites]