Stereo Setup
October 20, 2005 5:25 AM Subscribe
I want to purchase a quality stereo system. I have learned that just purchasing expensive stuff and setting it down in a room where the wife thinks it looks good does not work. How do I match a stereo system to the acoustics of a room and its furnishings? My wifes sense of style also gets in the way here. I do not care what it looks like as long as I get good sound. Are there any self compensating speaker systems out there? Can a system be retuned if the room furnishings are changed or if the room is remodeled? I am positive that my elderly ears have frequency recognition limitations. Any way of determining how much of a problem this can be? Are there ways of dealing/compensating for this?
Well, consider that only the speakers need to be in certain locations.. as long as your cables are long enough (and don't get conned into the crazily high end cables, mid range is fine) but within reasonable limits, the actual stereo system and/or separates can go where you want.
My opinion towards acoustics is entirely pragmatic. You're the one who'll be listening to the music, so they should go where they sound good to you. Getting into acoustic modelling, working out exact locations, establishing echo points, etc.. is all pointless and academic if, at the end of the day, they sound good to you already.
posted by wackybrit at 5:53 AM on October 20, 2005
My opinion towards acoustics is entirely pragmatic. You're the one who'll be listening to the music, so they should go where they sound good to you. Getting into acoustic modelling, working out exact locations, establishing echo points, etc.. is all pointless and academic if, at the end of the day, they sound good to you already.
posted by wackybrit at 5:53 AM on October 20, 2005
I had a demo of one of the Bose Lifestyle systems in our local dealership, and it has a feature where it automatically analyses your room acoustics, and compensates accordingly. It was pretty impressive - they covered one of the speakers with a thin wood case, and pointed it away from the front of the room - as you'd expect the sound became more muffled and the stereo image was ruined. They then hit the "re-analyse room" feature, and while the sound quality didn't return to quite the level it was at whilst uncovered, it came very very close. These systems also have the advantage of being visually very unintrusive with small speakers, so your wife should be happy with them. They're not cheap, but it sounds like it meets your requirements nicely. I'd recommend going along to a Bose dealer for a demo to see if the sound quality is up to par - they played some jazz and classical in the demo i heard, and it did sound gorgeous. Bear in mind that was in a demo room, so the acoustics there would be damn near perfect anyway. Opinions seem to be very divided on whether the things are worth anywhere near the asking price - see if Bose will let you have a trial period in your own home, that's the only way to be sure, really.
posted by Jon Mitchell at 5:59 AM on October 20, 2005
posted by Jon Mitchell at 5:59 AM on October 20, 2005
Best answer: There is a lot of voodoo that gets sound under the guise of audiophile quality this and that (especially cables), and the same people will sell you all kinds of junk to make your living room look and sound like a recording studio. None of that stuff is necessary for just listening.
If you buy two decent speakers and place them in a way where they are unobstructed, and they form a roughly equilateral triangle with your head, you'll be sitting in the sweet spot. Most homes have enough stuff in them that sound bouncing off the walls isn't a huge problem, no matter what you do moving the furniture around. And you couldn't return anything after 30 days.
You can buy a device at RadioShack that measures decibel levels, and most receivers have a function where they will put out white noise, and you stand in the sweet spot with the remote adjusting the volume levels for each channel so that they all reach you ears mixed right. This is especially helpful with 5.1 setups, since most people have their subwoofers turned up too high.
You might want to consider buying a nice pair of headphones like the Sennheiser HD590. They’ll set you back about $200, but they’ll sound better than any regular stereo.
posted by andrewzipp at 6:08 AM on October 20, 2005
If you buy two decent speakers and place them in a way where they are unobstructed, and they form a roughly equilateral triangle with your head, you'll be sitting in the sweet spot. Most homes have enough stuff in them that sound bouncing off the walls isn't a huge problem, no matter what you do moving the furniture around. And you couldn't return anything after 30 days.
You can buy a device at RadioShack that measures decibel levels, and most receivers have a function where they will put out white noise, and you stand in the sweet spot with the remote adjusting the volume levels for each channel so that they all reach you ears mixed right. This is especially helpful with 5.1 setups, since most people have their subwoofers turned up too high.
You might want to consider buying a nice pair of headphones like the Sennheiser HD590. They’ll set you back about $200, but they’ll sound better than any regular stereo.
posted by andrewzipp at 6:08 AM on October 20, 2005
If looks are a problem, I would suggest you consider a headphone amp + good headphones.
A Headroom headphone amp and Headphones like Etymotic ER-4s or Sennheiser HD600 will sound better than something in the neighborhood of $25,000 of amps+speakers. The 600s are open, so you can still hear somebody talk to you while you have them on.
As a group listening source, you could then get some fairly small studio monitors (if you are going for small size only) or some pretty, and not-terrible-sounding but visually attractive floor-standing speakers, and let your wife ruin the room acoustically.
Don't buy the Bose stuff, unless size is your primary purchasing factor. Certainly don't buy it if you ever want to pop in a CD, and have it sound like Miles Davis or Eugene Ormandy are right there.
posted by I Love Tacos at 7:05 AM on October 20, 2005
A Headroom headphone amp and Headphones like Etymotic ER-4s or Sennheiser HD600 will sound better than something in the neighborhood of $25,000 of amps+speakers. The 600s are open, so you can still hear somebody talk to you while you have them on.
As a group listening source, you could then get some fairly small studio monitors (if you are going for small size only) or some pretty, and not-terrible-sounding but visually attractive floor-standing speakers, and let your wife ruin the room acoustically.
Don't buy the Bose stuff, unless size is your primary purchasing factor. Certainly don't buy it if you ever want to pop in a CD, and have it sound like Miles Davis or Eugene Ormandy are right there.
posted by I Love Tacos at 7:05 AM on October 20, 2005
Oh, and as far as matching speakers to room... it's not that big a deal. Most speakers are going to want to be in the someplace... probably a foot or two out from the wall, with a decent amount of stereo seperation.
If your wife can't work this in, let her do something horrid, and listen off the headphones.
posted by I Love Tacos at 7:14 AM on October 20, 2005
If your wife can't work this in, let her do something horrid, and listen off the headphones.
posted by I Love Tacos at 7:14 AM on October 20, 2005
change: someplace to: same place
posted by I Love Tacos at 7:15 AM on October 20, 2005
posted by I Love Tacos at 7:15 AM on October 20, 2005
If you really are looking for audiophile level sound you should probably stay away from Bose. They have a terrible reputation among audiophiles for making equipment that sounds great in a short in-store demo but does a poor job of accurately reproducing sound over the long term in your home. The reputation may be unfairly harsh, but is well founded.
I think you might be able to get by on some small monitor speakers (sometime called bookshelf speakers but never put them on a bookshelf). They have a better wife acceptance factor than many other types of speakers. They of course come in all price ranges. They won't have the goods for really low notes in classical music though. Good equipment reviews can be found in these sites:
Stereophile Magazine
TNT Audio
Six Moons
Stereo Times
Soundstage Network
Positive Feedback
Audiophile Audition
Audiophilia
Enjoy the Music
AudioReview (user reviews)
If you do want to electronically compensate for room effects then something like this PARC unit from Rives Audio might do the trick, although it is quite expensive. Less expensive solutions tend to just muddy up the sound. They also have a room calculator.
posted by caddis at 7:22 AM on October 20, 2005 [1 favorite]
I think you might be able to get by on some small monitor speakers (sometime called bookshelf speakers but never put them on a bookshelf). They have a better wife acceptance factor than many other types of speakers. They of course come in all price ranges. They won't have the goods for really low notes in classical music though. Good equipment reviews can be found in these sites:
Stereophile Magazine
TNT Audio
Six Moons
Stereo Times
Soundstage Network
Positive Feedback
Audiophile Audition
Audiophilia
Enjoy the Music
AudioReview (user reviews)
If you do want to electronically compensate for room effects then something like this PARC unit from Rives Audio might do the trick, although it is quite expensive. Less expensive solutions tend to just muddy up the sound. They also have a room calculator.
posted by caddis at 7:22 AM on October 20, 2005 [1 favorite]
I have a Bose 321 system, which has two speakers. It produces amazing sound because it adjusts according to the accoustics of the room. A good system will do this.
Our 321 system was about a grand, but they can be obtained for cheaper now. You can get the older version, which is what I have, in some places for $600. But the new ones are good, too.
I like the LifeStyle system from Bose. However, I don't like Bose's take on proprietary systems. For instance, it will rip CDs, but it only stores on the Bose system, and you can't transfer music files to/from the system. Very disconcerting. But that is the high end LifeStyle. The low end LifeStyle would be a great system, and the one I would buy if I was buying one today at that price range.
The 321 plays nice with a DVD player built in, and a couple of extra audio-ins. I have my Tivo, Airport Airtunes, and XM radion hooked to mine, and can switch between the three with a remote.
Be warned, however, Bose equipment does not work with third party universal remote controls, as Bose does not disclose their remote codes.
posted by benjh at 7:26 AM on October 20, 2005
Our 321 system was about a grand, but they can be obtained for cheaper now. You can get the older version, which is what I have, in some places for $600. But the new ones are good, too.
I like the LifeStyle system from Bose. However, I don't like Bose's take on proprietary systems. For instance, it will rip CDs, but it only stores on the Bose system, and you can't transfer music files to/from the system. Very disconcerting. But that is the high end LifeStyle. The low end LifeStyle would be a great system, and the one I would buy if I was buying one today at that price range.
The 321 plays nice with a DVD player built in, and a couple of extra audio-ins. I have my Tivo, Airport Airtunes, and XM radion hooked to mine, and can switch between the three with a remote.
Be warned, however, Bose equipment does not work with third party universal remote controls, as Bose does not disclose their remote codes.
posted by benjh at 7:26 AM on October 20, 2005
These Energcy C5 speakers rock. Pair it with an Onkyo receiver (some believe it is too bright on the treble, I agree -- but good all around).
posted by geoff. at 7:31 AM on October 20, 2005
posted by geoff. at 7:31 AM on October 20, 2005
Bang & Olufsen systems are a solid 10 for style (maybe 11), and a solid 9 for sound (meaning that unless you're a hard-core audiophile, you'll think they're a 10). And you don't want to obsess about "tuning your room," especially if you can't hear the high frequencies well. Just get the speakers placed where you get good stereo imaging and don't get boomy bass, and you're all set. If that's not good enough for you, then, yeah, you want a good set of headphones.
And I concur with the Bose slammers. Yes, Bose gives you "amazing" sound. What it doesn't give you is accurate sound.
posted by bricoleur at 7:45 AM on October 20, 2005
And I concur with the Bose slammers. Yes, Bose gives you "amazing" sound. What it doesn't give you is accurate sound.
posted by bricoleur at 7:45 AM on October 20, 2005
Ascend Acoustics are well known for being cheap and great for their price. They are direct order only, an unusual trait in the audio business. I have heard some of their stuff and I can say with confidence they are quite amazing.
posted by Dean Keaton at 8:04 AM on October 20, 2005
posted by Dean Keaton at 8:04 AM on October 20, 2005
note: my audio experience comes from Polk's line of classic monitors, and as with anyone who says their speakers sound amazing, do your own research.
posted by Dean Keaton at 8:05 AM on October 20, 2005
posted by Dean Keaton at 8:05 AM on October 20, 2005
I'll second andrewzipp: If you buy two decent speakers and place them in a way where they are unobstructed, and they form a roughly equilateral triangle with your head, you'll be sitting in the sweet spot. Position is very important.
Where do you live? If you can find an independent audio dealer, they may let you take the speakers home on a 24-hour approval so you can listen in your room. Before that, bring a couple of albums you know well to the store and listen on a variety of speakers, from cheap ones to high-end stuff that's out of your price range. Speaker choice is a personal thing, not driven by specs. Trust your ears.
Also consider a subwoofer as part of the system. Smaller speakers can't reproduce bass as well as a single unit dedicated to bass. Subwoofer placement is much easier than the main speakers, because bass is omnidirectional.
posted by omnidrew at 8:10 AM on October 20, 2005
Where do you live? If you can find an independent audio dealer, they may let you take the speakers home on a 24-hour approval so you can listen in your room. Before that, bring a couple of albums you know well to the store and listen on a variety of speakers, from cheap ones to high-end stuff that's out of your price range. Speaker choice is a personal thing, not driven by specs. Trust your ears.
Also consider a subwoofer as part of the system. Smaller speakers can't reproduce bass as well as a single unit dedicated to bass. Subwoofer placement is much easier than the main speakers, because bass is omnidirectional.
posted by omnidrew at 8:10 AM on October 20, 2005
First off Ray, what are you considering "expensive"? Because there's several different levels in the audio world. You've got the big box stores like Best Buy and Circuit City, the mall stores like Bose (more on them later), the better chains that take it a step above, usually with Japanese lines like Yamaha, Denon, etc. And then there's the independent stores that handle the true audiophile equipment. Entry level in that world is going to cost you at least a couple grand for just amp, CD player, and speakers.
Bose. Sorry Benjh but there's a reason they are sold in their own stores. When I used to work in the industry we sold TONS of speakers by doing an A/B comparison with a Bose system we had set up in the store. Bose equipment sounds great in their store and it might sound great to you, but there is no way it stands up to audiophile equipment.
My advice is bring a stack of CDs (ones you know are both well recorded and that you are quite familiar with) and spend a while at an independent dealer going through various combinations of amps and speakers. Listen for clear articulation, especially in pieces with lots of orchestration. Vocals should sound like someone is singing, rather than a recording. My wife and I got a new system last winter and I think it took us two hours of auditioning to find the best combo. Look for a system that doesn't sound too bright or too heavy in the bottom end, because you'll grow tired of that sooner or later. And ask if it is possible to hear it at your own home. Lots of independent dealers will do that, especially if you're laying out a decent amount for the system.
If you get into the audiophile realm another thing to remember is that at this level, there's a period of time for the stuff to "break in". My speakers definitely needed about six months of playing before they reached their full potential. The bass deepened, the highs got warmer. The speakers you are going to hear in a store will definitely be broken in, so take that into account once you set it all up.
The equilateral triangle theory is dead on. You should definitely have a sweet spot if you get it the speakers set up that way. And then let it rip.
posted by Ber at 8:49 AM on October 20, 2005
Bose. Sorry Benjh but there's a reason they are sold in their own stores. When I used to work in the industry we sold TONS of speakers by doing an A/B comparison with a Bose system we had set up in the store. Bose equipment sounds great in their store and it might sound great to you, but there is no way it stands up to audiophile equipment.
My advice is bring a stack of CDs (ones you know are both well recorded and that you are quite familiar with) and spend a while at an independent dealer going through various combinations of amps and speakers. Listen for clear articulation, especially in pieces with lots of orchestration. Vocals should sound like someone is singing, rather than a recording. My wife and I got a new system last winter and I think it took us two hours of auditioning to find the best combo. Look for a system that doesn't sound too bright or too heavy in the bottom end, because you'll grow tired of that sooner or later. And ask if it is possible to hear it at your own home. Lots of independent dealers will do that, especially if you're laying out a decent amount for the system.
If you get into the audiophile realm another thing to remember is that at this level, there's a period of time for the stuff to "break in". My speakers definitely needed about six months of playing before they reached their full potential. The bass deepened, the highs got warmer. The speakers you are going to hear in a store will definitely be broken in, so take that into account once you set it all up.
The equilateral triangle theory is dead on. You should definitely have a sweet spot if you get it the speakers set up that way. And then let it rip.
posted by Ber at 8:49 AM on October 20, 2005
Yes, Bose has a terrible reputation among audiophiles, but audiophiles have a terrible reputation among the sane and scientifically minded. Bose has a good reputation among everyone else because they invent new things, such as noise-cancelling headphones.
posted by cameldrv at 9:59 AM on October 20, 2005
posted by cameldrv at 9:59 AM on October 20, 2005
I can 3rd or 4th the stay away from Bose recommendations, a lot more style than substance. I've been in and out of the home audio business for a long time now and my suggestion to you is simple, NAD, especially if you are a big Jazzer. Nad stuff has been my recommendation for years now and no one has ever complained, I've never even worked anywhere that sold them so it's not a kickback thing at all. For pure stereo the C352 would blow your mind, read any of the reviews.
http://www.nadelectronics.com/hifi_amplifiers/C352_framset.htm
As with the others above I also agree that the impact of room dynamics is generally overstated.
Speakers are a more subjective thing so suggestions are tough without talking to you however the three brands that I usually pair with NAD stuff are PSB, Paradigm and Energy.
NAD - "Fewer parts, better sound" NAD stuff on ebay routinely goes for many times it's original price 20 years later.
posted by Cosine at 10:11 AM on October 20, 2005
http://www.nadelectronics.com/hifi_amplifiers/C352_framset.htm
As with the others above I also agree that the impact of room dynamics is generally overstated.
Speakers are a more subjective thing so suggestions are tough without talking to you however the three brands that I usually pair with NAD stuff are PSB, Paradigm and Energy.
NAD - "Fewer parts, better sound" NAD stuff on ebay routinely goes for many times it's original price 20 years later.
posted by Cosine at 10:11 AM on October 20, 2005
Classical and Jazz better with Martin Logan
wife will love them.
posted by hortense at 10:13 AM on October 20, 2005
wife will love them.
posted by hortense at 10:13 AM on October 20, 2005
Best answer: I used to sell high end audio equipment, and learned a few things others haven't touched on in this thread, that may be of some use to you. I'd break it down into two categories, those being "things that are important to wives of audiophiles" and "things that are important to sound."
Things that are important to wives of audophiles:
In my experience, women do hear differently than men. They seem to be much more sensitive to high frequencies and to volume, and find even low levels of distortion, particularly intermodulation distortion, very objectionable and tiring. And if faced with the prospect of living with something that is going to fill their homes with sounds they quickly grow to hate, they do everything they can to minimize the intrusion, just as any prisoner subjected to psychological torture by hi-fi will...:-) So, I always found it helpful to get them involved at an early stage with picking the speakers, in particular. Often, I could explain that I found women's hearing superior, on average, to men, and by being willing to accept guidance from the distaff side of the house, I could open conversations about enjoyment of music, instead of one aggrieved party tolerating someone else's "hobby." And if I showed them things that had provably very smooth high frequency response, and very low distortion, I could often see for myself that women who had told me they didn't like classical music or jazz, could, suddenly, relax and listen with pleasure to recorded classical string sections and jazz cymbals. Often, they were as surprised by this as their husbands...:-) If only I could have charged for marriage counseling...
Second thing that is particularly important to women is ease of operation. If she doesn't see herself being able to choose and play music she likes easily and frequently, your wife won't want to become involved in the purchase or use of your system. And so, you'll miss all kinds of opportunities to see what she is thinking, that music can uniquely communicate. She'll miss the chance to change her own moods with music. You'll miss the chances for her to share music with you, that she wants you to hear. But if you select a system that is approachable and easy to use, and get her enjoying it herself, your life will be surprisingly richer.
Third thing is, wives and husbands often have significantly different tastes in music, but don't accommodate one another well. If the guy shoves a new high end stereo into their home, his wife may feel that they are going to be listening to music she doesn't like, most of the time. That can lead to divorce-by-stereo, and I'm not kidding. I've seen it happen, more than once. I say this because you make a point of telling us that you listen mostly to classical and jazz music, but make no mention of what your wife likes. If she's a big Elton John fan, and you aren't, I see many opportunities for magnanimity in your future...;-) And your best strategy is to recognize this, and make damn sure, from the outset, that you expect to share the remote, and the selection opportunities.
Things that are important to sound:
In considering your home environment, you should understand that the physics of sound are not well accommodated by most normal homes. There are a lot of reasons for this, not the least being simply that most living rooms simply aren't big enough to contain the full wavelengths of bass notes, and also have to contain furniture in reasonable positions for living. A 20 Hz organ note has a wavelength of about 50 feet, so unless your room has at least some greater dimension than this, you are going to be facing some issues of cancellation that are really hard to overcome. At the other end of the spectrum, a 20,000 Hz cymbal overtone has a wavelength of only about 1/2" and is easily absorbed by even light drapery or upholstery. Trying to electronically overcome the physics of a living room by electronic equalization, even in a smallish "sweet spot" listening zone is more an exercise in psychoacoustics than in physics, with the emphasis on the "psycho," in my experience, and a big reason why things often sound a lot different at home than they do in stereo showrooms.
Not that stereo showrooms are good places to audition equipment, either. It's pretty well known that listening to equipment, particularly speakers, in a room filled with 50 other sets of speakers isn't very instructive. The reason being that all those other speakers that aren't being played are sucking up energy sympathetically from the ones that are. And even if that weren't the case, the small differences in speaker efficiencies that naturally exist can often entirely mask many qualities of speakers in A/B comparisons. Many people like speakers that are simply a few decibels more efficient than others in the showroom, because they seem "brighter" or "clearer" in A/B comparisons. So, you have to be guided not only by what you hear at the showroom, but at home. Good audio dealers understand this, and will usually have some kind of "home audition" guarantee. But if you are going to be doing some listening in showrooms, at least take along your own recordings, that you are very familiar with, as some basis for consistent comparison.
You also say "I am positive that my elderly ears have frequency recognition limitations." The good news for you then is that you are justified in forgetting about the very high end of the audio spectrum (anything above about 12,000 Hz) and perhaps the very lowest couple of octaves (anything below about 100 Hz). But the caveat here, from what I've said above, is that your wife may still be quite sensitive to higher frequencies and loud sounds, even if you are not. If you've never done it, you may want to have your hearing checked by an audiologist before spending a lot of money on stereo equipment to overcome any perceived deficits you may have, because if you buy equipment that can not only reproduce what your ears may no longer respond to easily, and then punch up the parts of the spectrum you miss with tone controls and equalizers, you will make someone with more normal hearing absolutely crazy in an hour. Better, I think, to accept your losses, and look for equipment that is natural and smooth, particularly in the range of 200-10,000 Hz, and enjoy music often, or take the advice about headphones offered by others, above.
As to equipment selection suggestions, you know by now that I'm pretty skeptical about equalization and "self-tuning" speakers. Your mileage may vary, but I think you'd be better advised to try to pick conventional speakers that are well engineered, and well reviewed by respected reviewers, than to get too excited by gadgetry. In the end, your speakers are the gateway to your music, so focus your time and budget on selecting them wisely. Conventional wisdom is that 50% of your budget should go to speakers, and I think that is still true. But you may decide to spend more or less, depending on what you find that you like. I, for example, like Martin Logan speakers, and am willing to have their relatively large and prominent shapes in my living room, and don't have a wife to argue with about this. These speakers require stable amplifiers, because they have electrostatic elements, and so choosing them means I looked for certain things in an amplifier that wouldn't be important to you if you choose conventional dynamic speakers.
Someone else has suggested Bang & Olafsun equipment, and my experience is that they make a good product, that delivers quite a smooth, neutral sound in most homes, and a good mix of ease of operation and "style" in their integrated systems. I had few people bring B & O equipment back after taking it home to audition. But they are not particularly impressive in showroom settings, because they often are the most neutral sounding equipment. And people's reactions to their "styling" is often quite sharp, in that you either like them or hate them. They do make a point of trying to produce some products that "disappear" visually.
Bose, in my view, is another manufacturer that people either love or hate. They deliver something unique, I think, and for many people, are the very best product they have ever heard. For myself, not so much, and I think that comparatively they are over-priced for what they do deliver. But if you are not worried about impressing some snooty audiophile friends, and you like what you hear, why not? Bose equipment holds its value pretty well, and is easy to resell if you tire of it later.
Good luck with this, and do let us know what you decide.
posted by paulsc at 10:46 AM on October 20, 2005 [1 favorite]
Things that are important to wives of audophiles:
In my experience, women do hear differently than men. They seem to be much more sensitive to high frequencies and to volume, and find even low levels of distortion, particularly intermodulation distortion, very objectionable and tiring. And if faced with the prospect of living with something that is going to fill their homes with sounds they quickly grow to hate, they do everything they can to minimize the intrusion, just as any prisoner subjected to psychological torture by hi-fi will...:-) So, I always found it helpful to get them involved at an early stage with picking the speakers, in particular. Often, I could explain that I found women's hearing superior, on average, to men, and by being willing to accept guidance from the distaff side of the house, I could open conversations about enjoyment of music, instead of one aggrieved party tolerating someone else's "hobby." And if I showed them things that had provably very smooth high frequency response, and very low distortion, I could often see for myself that women who had told me they didn't like classical music or jazz, could, suddenly, relax and listen with pleasure to recorded classical string sections and jazz cymbals. Often, they were as surprised by this as their husbands...:-) If only I could have charged for marriage counseling...
Second thing that is particularly important to women is ease of operation. If she doesn't see herself being able to choose and play music she likes easily and frequently, your wife won't want to become involved in the purchase or use of your system. And so, you'll miss all kinds of opportunities to see what she is thinking, that music can uniquely communicate. She'll miss the chance to change her own moods with music. You'll miss the chances for her to share music with you, that she wants you to hear. But if you select a system that is approachable and easy to use, and get her enjoying it herself, your life will be surprisingly richer.
Third thing is, wives and husbands often have significantly different tastes in music, but don't accommodate one another well. If the guy shoves a new high end stereo into their home, his wife may feel that they are going to be listening to music she doesn't like, most of the time. That can lead to divorce-by-stereo, and I'm not kidding. I've seen it happen, more than once. I say this because you make a point of telling us that you listen mostly to classical and jazz music, but make no mention of what your wife likes. If she's a big Elton John fan, and you aren't, I see many opportunities for magnanimity in your future...;-) And your best strategy is to recognize this, and make damn sure, from the outset, that you expect to share the remote, and the selection opportunities.
Things that are important to sound:
In considering your home environment, you should understand that the physics of sound are not well accommodated by most normal homes. There are a lot of reasons for this, not the least being simply that most living rooms simply aren't big enough to contain the full wavelengths of bass notes, and also have to contain furniture in reasonable positions for living. A 20 Hz organ note has a wavelength of about 50 feet, so unless your room has at least some greater dimension than this, you are going to be facing some issues of cancellation that are really hard to overcome. At the other end of the spectrum, a 20,000 Hz cymbal overtone has a wavelength of only about 1/2" and is easily absorbed by even light drapery or upholstery. Trying to electronically overcome the physics of a living room by electronic equalization, even in a smallish "sweet spot" listening zone is more an exercise in psychoacoustics than in physics, with the emphasis on the "psycho," in my experience, and a big reason why things often sound a lot different at home than they do in stereo showrooms.
Not that stereo showrooms are good places to audition equipment, either. It's pretty well known that listening to equipment, particularly speakers, in a room filled with 50 other sets of speakers isn't very instructive. The reason being that all those other speakers that aren't being played are sucking up energy sympathetically from the ones that are. And even if that weren't the case, the small differences in speaker efficiencies that naturally exist can often entirely mask many qualities of speakers in A/B comparisons. Many people like speakers that are simply a few decibels more efficient than others in the showroom, because they seem "brighter" or "clearer" in A/B comparisons. So, you have to be guided not only by what you hear at the showroom, but at home. Good audio dealers understand this, and will usually have some kind of "home audition" guarantee. But if you are going to be doing some listening in showrooms, at least take along your own recordings, that you are very familiar with, as some basis for consistent comparison.
You also say "I am positive that my elderly ears have frequency recognition limitations." The good news for you then is that you are justified in forgetting about the very high end of the audio spectrum (anything above about 12,000 Hz) and perhaps the very lowest couple of octaves (anything below about 100 Hz). But the caveat here, from what I've said above, is that your wife may still be quite sensitive to higher frequencies and loud sounds, even if you are not. If you've never done it, you may want to have your hearing checked by an audiologist before spending a lot of money on stereo equipment to overcome any perceived deficits you may have, because if you buy equipment that can not only reproduce what your ears may no longer respond to easily, and then punch up the parts of the spectrum you miss with tone controls and equalizers, you will make someone with more normal hearing absolutely crazy in an hour. Better, I think, to accept your losses, and look for equipment that is natural and smooth, particularly in the range of 200-10,000 Hz, and enjoy music often, or take the advice about headphones offered by others, above.
As to equipment selection suggestions, you know by now that I'm pretty skeptical about equalization and "self-tuning" speakers. Your mileage may vary, but I think you'd be better advised to try to pick conventional speakers that are well engineered, and well reviewed by respected reviewers, than to get too excited by gadgetry. In the end, your speakers are the gateway to your music, so focus your time and budget on selecting them wisely. Conventional wisdom is that 50% of your budget should go to speakers, and I think that is still true. But you may decide to spend more or less, depending on what you find that you like. I, for example, like Martin Logan speakers, and am willing to have their relatively large and prominent shapes in my living room, and don't have a wife to argue with about this. These speakers require stable amplifiers, because they have electrostatic elements, and so choosing them means I looked for certain things in an amplifier that wouldn't be important to you if you choose conventional dynamic speakers.
Someone else has suggested Bang & Olafsun equipment, and my experience is that they make a good product, that delivers quite a smooth, neutral sound in most homes, and a good mix of ease of operation and "style" in their integrated systems. I had few people bring B & O equipment back after taking it home to audition. But they are not particularly impressive in showroom settings, because they often are the most neutral sounding equipment. And people's reactions to their "styling" is often quite sharp, in that you either like them or hate them. They do make a point of trying to produce some products that "disappear" visually.
Bose, in my view, is another manufacturer that people either love or hate. They deliver something unique, I think, and for many people, are the very best product they have ever heard. For myself, not so much, and I think that comparatively they are over-priced for what they do deliver. But if you are not worried about impressing some snooty audiophile friends, and you like what you hear, why not? Bose equipment holds its value pretty well, and is easy to resell if you tire of it later.
Good luck with this, and do let us know what you decide.
posted by paulsc at 10:46 AM on October 20, 2005 [1 favorite]
I love my Tivoli Audio Model 2. And by love, I mean, "I would rescue it in a fire" type-love.
posted by lilboo at 11:55 AM on October 20, 2005
posted by lilboo at 11:55 AM on October 20, 2005
How do I match a stereo system to the acoustics of a room and its furnishings?
Why do you think this is necessary?
Is there something unusual about the room?
posted by Lanark at 12:05 PM on October 20, 2005
Why do you think this is necessary?
Is there something unusual about the room?
posted by Lanark at 12:05 PM on October 20, 2005
How do I match a stereo system to the acoustics of a room and its furnishings?One thing that does come to mind is that many speakers like to be a couple feet away from the wall (rear-ported speakers, especially). If, for reasons of decor, you need to place the speakers very close to the wall, then you should bear that in mind while shopping.
posted by kickingtheground at 1:21 PM on October 20, 2005
Response by poster: Lanark Asked:
Is there something unusual about the room?
Open area with cathedral ceilings. Area contains kitchen, dining and living ares. Uncovered (at the moment) sheetrock walls.
posted by Raybun at 1:29 PM on October 20, 2005
Is there something unusual about the room?
Open area with cathedral ceilings. Area contains kitchen, dining and living ares. Uncovered (at the moment) sheetrock walls.
posted by Raybun at 1:29 PM on October 20, 2005
Response by poster: Everybody opined:
Bose is not a good choice. I agree all of you very strongly. We had a set of Bose and they did not sound that much better than the speaker that came with our television.
posted by Raybun at 1:39 PM on October 20, 2005
Bose is not a good choice. I agree all of you very strongly. We had a set of Bose and they did not sound that much better than the speaker that came with our television.
posted by Raybun at 1:39 PM on October 20, 2005
Obviously lots of people have strong opinions about audio gear. I think there's a lot of placebo psychological effects going on once you get into the higher-priced gear. Most well-designed and well-built CD players and solid-state amps should be transparent, so I would focus on differences between speakers. Bring some of your own CDs to a showroom, and if possible audition several sets of speakers in your own room. B&W are frequently recommended, but for a totally different sort of sound you might experiment with electrostats like Quad ESLs (I have the 988s). You'll get a lot more bang for your buck if you buy used at a classifieds site like AudiogoN.
posted by hyperizer at 3:51 PM on October 20, 2005
posted by hyperizer at 3:51 PM on October 20, 2005
With lots of open space, and
hard surfaces do think carefully about speaker placement - this will be easier to get right if you choose small(ish) speakers.
posted by Lanark at 3:53 PM on October 20, 2005
hard surfaces do think carefully about speaker placement - this will be easier to get right if you choose small(ish) speakers.
posted by Lanark at 3:53 PM on October 20, 2005
Open area with cathedral ceilings. Area contains kitchen, dining and living ares. Uncovered (at the moment) sheetrock walls.
posted by Raybun at 1:29 PM PST on October 20 [!]
Generally, corner locations for main speakers are preferred, if available and not blocked by furniture, because the intersection of the walls and floor create a natural horn loading for the speakers, that improves bass response and overall efficiency. (Some classic folded horn designs such as the Klipsch actually require this location for proper operation.) The farther you locate the speaker from the corner, the less architectural horn loading you provide. But as I've said, bass wavelengths are physically pretty long, so a few feet one way or another isn't usually all that dramatic a difference. E.g. a 100 Hz bass note fundamental has a wavelength of over 10 feet, so moving the speakers 2 feet from the corner doesn't have much effect on low bass. But by the same token, as you go up the scale, to say A 440 (A above middle C, in the range of most vocalists and lead jazz instruments) the wavelength of the fundamental drops to something like 30 inches, so the same relocation will be noticeable in mid-bass and melody ranges. Start in the corners, and if you must, move the speakers symmetrically a little at a time, to get to a working location, consistent with placing other furniture, and still keeping a line of sight to both speakers of a stereo pair from as much of the area as you can.
Once in the general area you want to operate them in, it's useful, as others have said, to experiment a little with distance from a backing wall, and angle. Generally, if you have speakers that have any omni-directional elements, you need to keep a hard, unobstructed wall surface behind them, and a distance of from 1 to 2 feet between the speakers and the wall, in order to allow the ambience effects of the omni-directional elements to work as intended. Often, these kinds of speakers actually have some intentional "fattening" of their bass response built-in, by simply padding down the mid-range and highs, since they are supposed to be operated without a location which would maximize horn loading effect, so don't worry about losing the efficiency of the corner placement if you choose these kinds of speakers. Just make sure you buy enough amplifier, and remember that every 3db increase in max volume requires a doubling of power, when a speaker's efficiency is perfectly linear. So if a 50 watt/channel amp was sufficient to keep you happy with the speaker in the corner, moving it along and out from the walls a ways may mean you want to drive it with a 100 watt amp, all other things being equal.
The general rule is that each intersecting surface is worth 2 to 3db of horn loading effect. So, in the corners, you get 6db of loading, farther along the wall (more than 6 feet or so) this drops to about 3 db, and on top of end tables at the ends of a couch in the middle of a room, you get no loading. Consequently, placement certainly affects what you hear directly. But since speaker manufacturers know this, they often design in the slight bass boost I've mentioned for small bookshelf speakers, believing that most customers will put them at ear level in some kind of bookshelf or cabinetry. So if you put these in a corner position, they may sound tubby, but you can cut back the bass on your amplifier, and save some power headroom.
For most general interest speakers, there is no substitute for spending a little time moving the speakers around, and finding the spot you like them in best. If you have special cases like folded horns, put them in the corner, and arrange the room around them...:-) If you have Magneplanars, Martin Logans, or Quad electrostatics, you'll find yourself playing with placement a lot more (it's part of the fun!).
Your cathedral ceiling may help a bit with avoiding standing wave cancellations, but that depends to some degree on the angles involved, the relative damping of the room with furniture, and of course, speaker placement and drive power. For the most part, this is only of real concern to folks that listen to E. Power Biggs organ recordings, and heavy bass line rock, but if you want to see if you have big standing wave problems, you can easily download a software audio toolkit, connect your PC as a source (or obtain an audio test CD), and using either your ears or a Radio Shack sound pressure level meter, move around slowly to find any natural standing wave harmonics of your room.
Supposing you find them at all, and that they are in the 100 to 1000 Hz range, and they are really objectionable (meaning they are easily induced by low volume excitation from your speakers), there may or may not be much you can practically do about them. If (as an example) you find a single 80 Hz standing wave pattern that is very noticeable, you may be able to find an alternate placement of the speakers that solves the problem. Or you may find that putting a big heavy piece of furniture on an opposite wall tames the beast. But every building short of an anechoic chamber has some tendency to natural oscillation. Unless yours is really pronounced, in a frequency range where real music occurs regularly (say 100 to 400 Hz) and can't be broken up effectively with furniture placement or speaker relocation, you may just decide to live with it. I've lived in a couple of places with big listening rooms that had horrible low end standing wave problems, but have dealt with them in these simple ways, and been pretty satisfied. Beats tearing down drywall, screwing up plywood, filling walls with tons of sand, and hanging absorption panels from the walls and ceiling..;-)
In the higher frequency ranges, simple things like artwork, wall hangings, drapes, and furniture have big effects in controlling reflections. But unless you listen at really high volumes, the decay rate of sound in air in a room suite such as you describe will contribute some positive damping all by itself. Air is not a great conduction medium for sound, believe it or not, which is why sounds often travel further and faster underwater. And your ears and mind make adaptations for reflected sounds arriving at your ears no more than about 5 to 8 milliseconds later than the unreflected direct sound. Well known effects supplied "automagically" by your brain (like temporal and frequency masking) work well unless you live in a glass box, and listen mainly to bell choirs. More rooms sound bad because they are way overdamped than underdamped, for these reasons. So, my advice is let a few million years of evolution work for you, until they clearly don't.
posted by paulsc at 4:44 PM on October 20, 2005
posted by Raybun at 1:29 PM PST on October 20 [!]
Generally, corner locations for main speakers are preferred, if available and not blocked by furniture, because the intersection of the walls and floor create a natural horn loading for the speakers, that improves bass response and overall efficiency. (Some classic folded horn designs such as the Klipsch actually require this location for proper operation.) The farther you locate the speaker from the corner, the less architectural horn loading you provide. But as I've said, bass wavelengths are physically pretty long, so a few feet one way or another isn't usually all that dramatic a difference. E.g. a 100 Hz bass note fundamental has a wavelength of over 10 feet, so moving the speakers 2 feet from the corner doesn't have much effect on low bass. But by the same token, as you go up the scale, to say A 440 (A above middle C, in the range of most vocalists and lead jazz instruments) the wavelength of the fundamental drops to something like 30 inches, so the same relocation will be noticeable in mid-bass and melody ranges. Start in the corners, and if you must, move the speakers symmetrically a little at a time, to get to a working location, consistent with placing other furniture, and still keeping a line of sight to both speakers of a stereo pair from as much of the area as you can.
Once in the general area you want to operate them in, it's useful, as others have said, to experiment a little with distance from a backing wall, and angle. Generally, if you have speakers that have any omni-directional elements, you need to keep a hard, unobstructed wall surface behind them, and a distance of from 1 to 2 feet between the speakers and the wall, in order to allow the ambience effects of the omni-directional elements to work as intended. Often, these kinds of speakers actually have some intentional "fattening" of their bass response built-in, by simply padding down the mid-range and highs, since they are supposed to be operated without a location which would maximize horn loading effect, so don't worry about losing the efficiency of the corner placement if you choose these kinds of speakers. Just make sure you buy enough amplifier, and remember that every 3db increase in max volume requires a doubling of power, when a speaker's efficiency is perfectly linear. So if a 50 watt/channel amp was sufficient to keep you happy with the speaker in the corner, moving it along and out from the walls a ways may mean you want to drive it with a 100 watt amp, all other things being equal.
The general rule is that each intersecting surface is worth 2 to 3db of horn loading effect. So, in the corners, you get 6db of loading, farther along the wall (more than 6 feet or so) this drops to about 3 db, and on top of end tables at the ends of a couch in the middle of a room, you get no loading. Consequently, placement certainly affects what you hear directly. But since speaker manufacturers know this, they often design in the slight bass boost I've mentioned for small bookshelf speakers, believing that most customers will put them at ear level in some kind of bookshelf or cabinetry. So if you put these in a corner position, they may sound tubby, but you can cut back the bass on your amplifier, and save some power headroom.
For most general interest speakers, there is no substitute for spending a little time moving the speakers around, and finding the spot you like them in best. If you have special cases like folded horns, put them in the corner, and arrange the room around them...:-) If you have Magneplanars, Martin Logans, or Quad electrostatics, you'll find yourself playing with placement a lot more (it's part of the fun!).
Your cathedral ceiling may help a bit with avoiding standing wave cancellations, but that depends to some degree on the angles involved, the relative damping of the room with furniture, and of course, speaker placement and drive power. For the most part, this is only of real concern to folks that listen to E. Power Biggs organ recordings, and heavy bass line rock, but if you want to see if you have big standing wave problems, you can easily download a software audio toolkit, connect your PC as a source (or obtain an audio test CD), and using either your ears or a Radio Shack sound pressure level meter, move around slowly to find any natural standing wave harmonics of your room.
Supposing you find them at all, and that they are in the 100 to 1000 Hz range, and they are really objectionable (meaning they are easily induced by low volume excitation from your speakers), there may or may not be much you can practically do about them. If (as an example) you find a single 80 Hz standing wave pattern that is very noticeable, you may be able to find an alternate placement of the speakers that solves the problem. Or you may find that putting a big heavy piece of furniture on an opposite wall tames the beast. But every building short of an anechoic chamber has some tendency to natural oscillation. Unless yours is really pronounced, in a frequency range where real music occurs regularly (say 100 to 400 Hz) and can't be broken up effectively with furniture placement or speaker relocation, you may just decide to live with it. I've lived in a couple of places with big listening rooms that had horrible low end standing wave problems, but have dealt with them in these simple ways, and been pretty satisfied. Beats tearing down drywall, screwing up plywood, filling walls with tons of sand, and hanging absorption panels from the walls and ceiling..;-)
In the higher frequency ranges, simple things like artwork, wall hangings, drapes, and furniture have big effects in controlling reflections. But unless you listen at really high volumes, the decay rate of sound in air in a room suite such as you describe will contribute some positive damping all by itself. Air is not a great conduction medium for sound, believe it or not, which is why sounds often travel further and faster underwater. And your ears and mind make adaptations for reflected sounds arriving at your ears no more than about 5 to 8 milliseconds later than the unreflected direct sound. Well known effects supplied "automagically" by your brain (like temporal and frequency masking) work well unless you live in a glass box, and listen mainly to bell choirs. More rooms sound bad because they are way overdamped than underdamped, for these reasons. So, my advice is let a few million years of evolution work for you, until they clearly don't.
posted by paulsc at 4:44 PM on October 20, 2005
This thread is closed to new comments.
I listen mostly to Classical and Jazz, if this makes any difference.
posted by Raybun at 5:26 AM on October 20, 2005