Modeling for Free?
October 14, 2005 6:24 AM Subscribe
What is the appropriate rate for modeling?
With the help of a personal trainer at my gym, I lost a lot of weight. They touted me in the gym as one of their "success stories".
About 6 months ago, I was asked if they could take a picture to post in the club to show off my success. Well, I thought that was kind of cool, so I said yes. They took my picture, but the pictures never got put up.
About 2 months ago, I get a call from the training manager, saying he can't post my photo without me signing a consent form. I was busy and travelling at the time, so I told him it would be a couple of weeks before I could stop in. (I go to a different gym now, by the way.)
About 2 weeks after that conversation on the phone, I get a call from his boss, saying he has all these full color posters printed up, and he needs me to sign this consent form. He faxes me over the consent form.
The consent form basically gives them the copyrights to my pictures, the right for them to use them in any medium and with no editorial input, in perpetuity, hereunto in this dimension and all others, etc. etc. etc.
Well, needless to say, I balked at signing this agreement. I don't think I should sign something like that.
He calls me again this morning, complaining he needs me to sign the consent form.
So my question, after all that, is this: Is it right to be expected to be compensated for this, especially since I feel misled about the purpose of this project? What is appropriate compensation, if applicable? And what rights should I be trying to retain, if I should sign this form?
With the help of a personal trainer at my gym, I lost a lot of weight. They touted me in the gym as one of their "success stories".
About 6 months ago, I was asked if they could take a picture to post in the club to show off my success. Well, I thought that was kind of cool, so I said yes. They took my picture, but the pictures never got put up.
About 2 months ago, I get a call from the training manager, saying he can't post my photo without me signing a consent form. I was busy and travelling at the time, so I told him it would be a couple of weeks before I could stop in. (I go to a different gym now, by the way.)
About 2 weeks after that conversation on the phone, I get a call from his boss, saying he has all these full color posters printed up, and he needs me to sign this consent form. He faxes me over the consent form.
The consent form basically gives them the copyrights to my pictures, the right for them to use them in any medium and with no editorial input, in perpetuity, hereunto in this dimension and all others, etc. etc. etc.
Well, needless to say, I balked at signing this agreement. I don't think I should sign something like that.
He calls me again this morning, complaining he needs me to sign the consent form.
So my question, after all that, is this: Is it right to be expected to be compensated for this, especially since I feel misled about the purpose of this project? What is appropriate compensation, if applicable? And what rights should I be trying to retain, if I should sign this form?
I was asked if they could take a picture to post in the club to show off my success.
So I take it they are not just putting these posters up around the gym?
Just tell them, if the posters are kept in the gym, you will sign, but if they are used for any advertising or other promotional purposes outside of the gym, you expect to be compensated.
posted by banished at 6:39 AM on October 14, 2005
So I take it they are not just putting these posters up around the gym?
Just tell them, if the posters are kept in the gym, you will sign, but if they are used for any advertising or other promotional purposes outside of the gym, you expect to be compensated.
posted by banished at 6:39 AM on October 14, 2005
Is this gym part of a chain, or a local place? If it's local, there are fewer opportunities for them to use the picture more widely than agreed.
Assuming it is local, at a minimum, I would ask for five years (or lifetime?) membership in the gym. More than that if it is part of a big chain.
You should also update the consent form to limit their uses to the ones you want to agree to. Don't give them blanket permission. Maybe just limit it to the posters they've already printed.
posted by alms at 6:48 AM on October 14, 2005
Assuming it is local, at a minimum, I would ask for five years (or lifetime?) membership in the gym. More than that if it is part of a big chain.
You should also update the consent form to limit their uses to the ones you want to agree to. Don't give them blanket permission. Maybe just limit it to the posters they've already printed.
posted by alms at 6:48 AM on October 14, 2005
Response by poster: It's a chain gym, and the training company acts as a seperate company. Fairly large training company, and is located in two different chains of gyms.
posted by benjh at 6:51 AM on October 14, 2005
posted by benjh at 6:51 AM on October 14, 2005
On the other side: In our customer agreements, our company claims we can use customer likenesses and quotes in any way we see fit for our promotional materials. Basically, by agreeing to use our company, you're agreeing to being quoted on our customer testimonials page, or to having your photo appear in our brochure.
I think that's fairly standard. Which isn't to say you shouldn't see if you can get something out of it, but being used for promotional purposes at a club you belong to is slightly different than being hired as a model (at least to its marketing department!).
posted by occhiblu at 7:34 AM on October 14, 2005
I think that's fairly standard. Which isn't to say you shouldn't see if you can get something out of it, but being used for promotional purposes at a club you belong to is slightly different than being hired as a model (at least to its marketing department!).
posted by occhiblu at 7:34 AM on October 14, 2005
Since you already told them they could use your photo, you can't simply deny them now without dishonoring yourself.
That being said, they are now asking you to assign all rights, without limit. That's above and beyond what you already agreed. You definitely want to limit their right to use your image, but play nice.
posted by Goofyy at 7:50 AM on October 14, 2005
That being said, they are now asking you to assign all rights, without limit. That's above and beyond what you already agreed. You definitely want to limit their right to use your image, but play nice.
posted by Goofyy at 7:50 AM on October 14, 2005
Models work for what might be conceived as "free" all the time, though usually the ones just starting out trade work for photos. In such cases, the photographer always keeps the rights to the shots; in fact it's quite rare for a model to get full rights to a photo. I'd reckon only the tip-top most elite of models could ever negotiate something like that. But in those cases, the models are actually receiving something--prints for a portfolio, for example, or posing practice with a pro. It's not exactly "free."
If they're going to be using your likeness for marketing, you should be compensated in some manner. And no, "fame and recognition" doesn't count. The limits of whatever contract you negotiate are completely up to you--you could sign a release that gives partial use if you like. Normally, though, releases are an all-or-nothing proposition, which is probably why the gym boss is a bit perturbed. That, and he made the foolish and expensive mistake of assuming you'd go along for no compensation other than "showing off."
In the end, I really think the manager of the gym could have handled the situation better, and had he done so, there would be no problems. Now you're getting pressure that's only going to make you want to push back: this a bad place to start negotiations, even though it's not your fault.
If I were you, I'd ask him to clarify just exactly how the photos will be used, get it in writing, and see if they bring anything to the table for compensation. I'd think a gym owner would at the very least offer, say, a year's free membership.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 7:56 AM on October 14, 2005
If they're going to be using your likeness for marketing, you should be compensated in some manner. And no, "fame and recognition" doesn't count. The limits of whatever contract you negotiate are completely up to you--you could sign a release that gives partial use if you like. Normally, though, releases are an all-or-nothing proposition, which is probably why the gym boss is a bit perturbed. That, and he made the foolish and expensive mistake of assuming you'd go along for no compensation other than "showing off."
In the end, I really think the manager of the gym could have handled the situation better, and had he done so, there would be no problems. Now you're getting pressure that's only going to make you want to push back: this a bad place to start negotiations, even though it's not your fault.
If I were you, I'd ask him to clarify just exactly how the photos will be used, get it in writing, and see if they bring anything to the table for compensation. I'd think a gym owner would at the very least offer, say, a year's free membership.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 7:56 AM on October 14, 2005
If he's already spent $2000 to make the posters, you ought to be able to bilk him for another $200 at least, bearing in mind that if you don't consent, they'll have to get another model and print up another $2000 worth of posters.
I bet they'd work out a deal for you for free membership for a year or something like that, if you wanted to do that instead - after all, you're good advertising for the place; they want you and people like you in there.
So just call or email the guy and politely explain that you'd like to be compensated and this is the form you'd like it to take.
posted by ikkyu2 at 8:37 AM on October 14, 2005
I bet they'd work out a deal for you for free membership for a year or something like that, if you wanted to do that instead - after all, you're good advertising for the place; they want you and people like you in there.
So just call or email the guy and politely explain that you'd like to be compensated and this is the form you'd like it to take.
posted by ikkyu2 at 8:37 AM on October 14, 2005
IAAL, and I work with models/photo agreements all the time, and that contract isn't abnormal.
If you want to limit the use of your photo to inside the club only, make sure you get that in writing. If you don't want them to use your photo, get that in writing, too. If you want to get paid for your photo, get that in writing.
However, since you didn't make an agreement for payment for the photo when you had it taken, I don't think you have any legal right to retroactively demand payment. However, if the club wishes to compensate you as a showing of good faith, that's their deal. You're changing the rules in the middle of the game by asking for payment; they're not. They're simply performing their legal due diligence by getting you to sign the release; however, if the release is outside what you thought you were doing, get them to change the release so it matches what you're doing.
I think my answer ended up being wordier than it needed to be, so let me know if you need further clarification.
posted by MeetMegan at 8:55 AM on October 14, 2005
If you want to limit the use of your photo to inside the club only, make sure you get that in writing. If you don't want them to use your photo, get that in writing, too. If you want to get paid for your photo, get that in writing.
However, since you didn't make an agreement for payment for the photo when you had it taken, I don't think you have any legal right to retroactively demand payment. However, if the club wishes to compensate you as a showing of good faith, that's their deal. You're changing the rules in the middle of the game by asking for payment; they're not. They're simply performing their legal due diligence by getting you to sign the release; however, if the release is outside what you thought you were doing, get them to change the release so it matches what you're doing.
I think my answer ended up being wordier than it needed to be, so let me know if you need further clarification.
posted by MeetMegan at 8:55 AM on October 14, 2005
Response by poster: The problem is that they changed what was happening mid-stream. They told me it was just for the club, then decided to use the picture on a national level. It is on a poster with other pictures.
I'm not a model, nor do I have any desire to be one. (Although I'd love to look like one, but that is another argument altogether).
Basically, I feel manipulated, and for them to want to use it in a national marketing campaign, I feel I should be compensated for it.
posted by benjh at 9:24 AM on October 14, 2005
I'm not a model, nor do I have any desire to be one. (Although I'd love to look like one, but that is another argument altogether).
Basically, I feel manipulated, and for them to want to use it in a national marketing campaign, I feel I should be compensated for it.
posted by benjh at 9:24 AM on October 14, 2005
If you decide not to sign the release, I suggest that you also write a letter asking that the pictures not be used outside the club, or not at all, whichever is your preference.
posted by wryly at 9:24 AM on October 14, 2005
posted by wryly at 9:24 AM on October 14, 2005
You already have an verbal contract with them, which you should honor both as a matter of law and morality. However, all contracts are negotiable, and they're the ones who re-opened the negotiation by demanding more rights than originally agreed to. So I see nothing wrong with holding out for fair compensation for the additional rights they now want.
Talk to the manager. Tell him you will honor the deal that had already been reached, and would be happy to sign a contract that affirms that strictly limited right at no fee. If he wants broader rights, that's a separate discussion--and feel free to give a flat out NO to any part of his contract that makes you uncomfortable. As others have noted, the poster cost is his screwup and his problem alone. Don't let that influence your decision.
posted by nakedcodemonkey at 10:47 AM on October 14, 2005
Talk to the manager. Tell him you will honor the deal that had already been reached, and would be happy to sign a contract that affirms that strictly limited right at no fee. If he wants broader rights, that's a separate discussion--and feel free to give a flat out NO to any part of his contract that makes you uncomfortable. As others have noted, the poster cost is his screwup and his problem alone. Don't let that influence your decision.
posted by nakedcodemonkey at 10:47 AM on October 14, 2005
To be fair, the verbal contract's terms were for the photo to be used in a very limited sense i.e., only within the gym. They can't change the terms of contract without mutual agreement.
I dare say the poster is within his rights to stick to only the originally agreed conditions and negotiate some kind of payment for what the gym wants to do now.
(To the folks suggesting a year's membership as payment, the poster said he's switched to another gym. Perhaps he's not too crazy about getting something he can't use. :)
posted by madman at 1:10 PM on October 14, 2005
I dare say the poster is within his rights to stick to only the originally agreed conditions and negotiate some kind of payment for what the gym wants to do now.
(To the folks suggesting a year's membership as payment, the poster said he's switched to another gym. Perhaps he's not too crazy about getting something he can't use. :)
posted by madman at 1:10 PM on October 14, 2005
The only verbal agreement that it appears that you had was to post your picture in the local gym. That's not what is at issue here; you have no obligation to agree to be on a poster.
[One minor point - you're bargaining for the use of your image, NOT really asking about modeling rates.]
So, consider this:
* They've spent $2,000 on the posters; it's cheaper for them to destroy the posters and start over than to pay you more than $2,000, although it would be inconvenient. So as far as the posters are concerned, asking for more than $500 or so might appear to them to be unreasonable. If you can get "paid" in gym fees, or future training sessions, which might (in the latter case, would) cost the firm less than you'd pay, then they'd probably feel even better. [Not relevant if you've moved to a new gym where they don't have trainers.]
* You might consider bargaining for a fee for something like "The use of my image on no more than XXX posters, to be publicly displayed through 12/31/2006." Then the firm won't have wasted their $2,000 (if you ask a reasonable fee), and in turn you won't feel ripped off. You can then, separately, negotiate further uses of your image, if any.
* Keep in mind that the value of your image is no more than the firm's "second best alternative". So if you ask for (say) $5,000 for unlimited future usage, they'll reject that if they think they can find someone else who can provide a comparable image for less money. (In other words, your bargaining position may not be all that good, at least for major amounts of money.)
In short, there is no hard-and-fast rule here; ideally, you'll get paid enough to be happy while the firm is able to use its posters (and maybe do more) without feeling like you held them up. You've temporarily got a better bargaining position because they were foolish enough to invest money before getting clearance.
posted by WestCoaster at 1:26 PM on October 14, 2005
[One minor point - you're bargaining for the use of your image, NOT really asking about modeling rates.]
So, consider this:
* They've spent $2,000 on the posters; it's cheaper for them to destroy the posters and start over than to pay you more than $2,000, although it would be inconvenient. So as far as the posters are concerned, asking for more than $500 or so might appear to them to be unreasonable. If you can get "paid" in gym fees, or future training sessions, which might (in the latter case, would) cost the firm less than you'd pay, then they'd probably feel even better. [Not relevant if you've moved to a new gym where they don't have trainers.]
* You might consider bargaining for a fee for something like "The use of my image on no more than XXX posters, to be publicly displayed through 12/31/2006." Then the firm won't have wasted their $2,000 (if you ask a reasonable fee), and in turn you won't feel ripped off. You can then, separately, negotiate further uses of your image, if any.
* Keep in mind that the value of your image is no more than the firm's "second best alternative". So if you ask for (say) $5,000 for unlimited future usage, they'll reject that if they think they can find someone else who can provide a comparable image for less money. (In other words, your bargaining position may not be all that good, at least for major amounts of money.)
In short, there is no hard-and-fast rule here; ideally, you'll get paid enough to be happy while the firm is able to use its posters (and maybe do more) without feeling like you held them up. You've temporarily got a better bargaining position because they were foolish enough to invest money before getting clearance.
posted by WestCoaster at 1:26 PM on October 14, 2005
What the manager is asking you to sign is a model release right? The model release basically says that they can do whatever they want with your picture (as long as it's not defamation of character or some other such thing), advertising, promotion etc ....
If they had hired a professional model to shoot for their poster they would have had to pay him/her in exchange for the modeling and the rights to reproduce the image. The rights would typically be acquired from the photographer who would have had you sign a model release to even shoot you in the first place and of course compensate you for your time.
You have every right to ask for compensation because they will be using your image for advertising and promotion. Your oral agreement means nothing otherwise the manager would not be bothering you so much to sign the model release. If you don't sign and they use you image (or image of you) for advertising/promotion, you can turn around and take them to court and demand compensation and then damages. So it's in the gym's best interest to get you to sign the release.
This is actually standard practice in a photographer/model/client transaction but not without consideration (ie compensation). Compensation can be in the form of money, as little as a penny or a dollar, or they can even offer you...oh i don't know...a piece of candy or something. the point is that on the release it will say something like : for valuable consideration receipt of which is acknowledged etc .......
Not to make this post any longer but you can and should ask for compensation. It's ok to sign your copyrights over to them but remember that it IS a contract and contracts always negotiable so you amy only decide to give them the right to use the image in that poster for example: for a period of 1 year in north america in english language. or for 1 time use in north america etc ....that decision is up to you. and then if they want to use it for their brochure and you only gave them rights to use it for the poster, you can then ask for more compensation or technically i suppose you can take them to court but would it really be worth it?
But if you really think about it....it's just one picture. They use it and they pay you. life goes on. do realize though that you can't change your mind afterwards because chances are they won't sell your rights back to you.
Anyway....long-winded but i hope i helped.
posted by eatcake at 1:35 PM on October 14, 2005
If they had hired a professional model to shoot for their poster they would have had to pay him/her in exchange for the modeling and the rights to reproduce the image. The rights would typically be acquired from the photographer who would have had you sign a model release to even shoot you in the first place and of course compensate you for your time.
You have every right to ask for compensation because they will be using your image for advertising and promotion. Your oral agreement means nothing otherwise the manager would not be bothering you so much to sign the model release. If you don't sign and they use you image (or image of you) for advertising/promotion, you can turn around and take them to court and demand compensation and then damages. So it's in the gym's best interest to get you to sign the release.
This is actually standard practice in a photographer/model/client transaction but not without consideration (ie compensation). Compensation can be in the form of money, as little as a penny or a dollar, or they can even offer you...oh i don't know...a piece of candy or something. the point is that on the release it will say something like : for valuable consideration receipt of which is acknowledged etc .......
Not to make this post any longer but you can and should ask for compensation. It's ok to sign your copyrights over to them but remember that it IS a contract and contracts always negotiable so you amy only decide to give them the right to use the image in that poster for example: for a period of 1 year in north america in english language. or for 1 time use in north america etc ....that decision is up to you. and then if they want to use it for their brochure and you only gave them rights to use it for the poster, you can then ask for more compensation or technically i suppose you can take them to court but would it really be worth it?
But if you really think about it....it's just one picture. They use it and they pay you. life goes on. do realize though that you can't change your mind afterwards because chances are they won't sell your rights back to you.
Anyway....long-winded but i hope i helped.
posted by eatcake at 1:35 PM on October 14, 2005
I'll go slightly different.
I'm going to suggest a tactic I use (perhaps too often). Make it his problem.
Call him on monday, say hi, tell him you've a bit spooked. You're not sure how it got out of control, but it seems to.
Tell him, nobody mentioned anything beyond putting up a single picture in your local gym. Nothing beyond that. Tell him you're not looking to fleece him for money, but you're very uncomfortable and feel taken advanatage of. Tell him that you're not necessarily against them using your picture...but you're not prepared for it. And you're certainly not signing away your rights.
Ask him to figure out some alternatives. They want to use *your* likeness. if he's difficutl...ask for his boss.
Finally, ask him for some suggestions of a solution.
posted by filmgeek at 9:02 PM on October 14, 2005
I'm going to suggest a tactic I use (perhaps too often). Make it his problem.
Call him on monday, say hi, tell him you've a bit spooked. You're not sure how it got out of control, but it seems to.
Tell him, nobody mentioned anything beyond putting up a single picture in your local gym. Nothing beyond that. Tell him you're not looking to fleece him for money, but you're very uncomfortable and feel taken advanatage of. Tell him that you're not necessarily against them using your picture...but you're not prepared for it. And you're certainly not signing away your rights.
Ask him to figure out some alternatives. They want to use *your* likeness. if he's difficutl...ask for his boss.
Finally, ask him for some suggestions of a solution.
posted by filmgeek at 9:02 PM on October 14, 2005
Take the copy of the agreement, mark out the parts that you object to (e.g. use for any purpose, nationwide, etc.) and annotate your own terms - that your image is to be used only in the local gym location of which you were a member and only in poster form, or whatever. You could add that as long as these conditions are met, you don't require any compensation - since that was the original verbal agreement.
Then send it back to them. Either they accept it, or they reject it. If they accept it, then you got what you originally bargained for. If they reject it then you can tell them that you'd be willing to agree to new terms but you will require money.
I know that working with contracts without a lawyer is a really bad idea, but I get the sense that you don't want to really escalate to that level of expense right now. Still, it would be a good idea to call one, especially if you are really turned off by the idea of your likeness being used in a nationwide campaign.
posted by Rhomboid at 9:21 PM on October 14, 2005
Then send it back to them. Either they accept it, or they reject it. If they accept it, then you got what you originally bargained for. If they reject it then you can tell them that you'd be willing to agree to new terms but you will require money.
I know that working with contracts without a lawyer is a really bad idea, but I get the sense that you don't want to really escalate to that level of expense right now. Still, it would be a good idea to call one, especially if you are really turned off by the idea of your likeness being used in a nationwide campaign.
posted by Rhomboid at 9:21 PM on October 14, 2005
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by benjh at 6:28 AM on October 14, 2005