Is this what "being the breadwinner" means?
November 20, 2013 2:54 PM Subscribe
What strategies can I use to convince my husband to more openly discuss our household finances with me?
I work in a professional role and make about $45,000 a year. My husband has only a HS diploma, and his annual salary is about $21K a year. Because we lived together for so long before we were married (lived together 13 years, married 7 years) we never really combined our finances -- instead we have always taken a "yours" "mine" and "ours" approach to household finances, where we have a joint checking account and then each maintain our own accounts as well.
I currently pay 100% of the following bills: Mortgage (including taxes and insurance), 2 car payments (both needed, no public transport available), health insurance, electric, cable, landline phone (we need to keep this), water/sewer. Total household bills I pay: $2,370. I also pay $241 per month combined in (a very small amount of rotating) consumer debt and my student loan, allof which is my own responsiblity.
My husband pays: afterschool care for our child, internet, car insurance, cell phones - which total $350 per month. He also pays his own disability and life insurance through his employer (and I don't know how much that total is). He also has one credit card (balance unknown) that he pays monthly. He also contributes $220 per month toward random joint expenses (usually groceries), and contributes an unknown amount to a 401K. (His employer matches at 5% of salary, so I imagine that's what he's contributing. I don't have any retirement savings, but I will get income from a trust after my mother dies.)
I feel like I'm drowning. I started a new job last year, and at that time took over the health insurance (formerly we'd been insured through his employer, my insurance is much better) but also went to a 2x per month payroll system which means I only get 24 checks per year. I am so tightly budgeted to meet our household expenses that I hardly ever have a cent left over for personal spending. (This weekend I'm going to round up books to sell for a cash in an effort to raise a couple of hundred dollars for Christmas presents.) We also have annual problems with our home heating bills (oil heat, we pay about $3k a year to heat our home). For many years, we had depended on a property tax rebate to pay about half the heat, but that program unexpectedly ended this year. My husband sold an unused posession to raise $1200 to pay half the oil, and I'm hoping the tax refund will pay the other half. We have always been a paycheck-to-paycheck family, but I had hoped with my new job and higher salary that would go away. Instead, its gotten worse in many ways.
Over the past few months I have tried to discuss the distribution of who pays what with my husband several times, but he simply refuses to have the conversation -- I think because he's very uncomforable talking with anyone about money. Partly my concerns are emotional - I got a big raise when I took this new job (over $10K per year) but because I took on the health insurance my actual, in my pocket available cash is actually much less than it has ever been. I sent him a spreadsheet, which he never opened. I've tried to have the conversation with him in person, but he simply refuses to discuss it, or disclose what his actual after-taxes-and-things-he's-currently-paying income is.
They say that money destroys relationships, and the only problem I have with our current relationship is that I'm so stressed about money all the time, and we do talk about specific expenses (he wants us to combine internet and cable, which would save me money but he wants me to take the whole expense and I'm not willing to do that) but he refuses to participate in any conversation about our household financial health as a whole.
As he has now hit his 25 year mark with his current employer (and thus becomes eligible for a host of retirement benefits that come with that status) I would like him to start looking for a job that pays more money, but he's not willing to discuss that. I will probably end up taking a second job next fall to pay the oil (I should have done that this fall, but the idea of going back to working two jobs made me burst into tears every time I talked about it, so he found this other solution by selling something.)
I always thought that when we (a family of 3) cracked the $60K a year mark, that our financial situation would get better. It's not. I know that's partly the economy, but I also feel like if there was better communication between us about money that we could find some ways to free up at least a little extra every month.
My questions:
- Is it unrealistic for me to think that we should be able to save and maybe even have disposable income on a household income of $66K a year?
- What strategies can I use to get my husband more comfortable discussing household income with me, and maybe move to a system where we both contribute set amounts to a joint account that bills are paid from?
What I don't need:
- Suggestions for YNAB or other budgeting tools. I'm good at using them. This is much more of a communication question than a budgeting question.
I work in a professional role and make about $45,000 a year. My husband has only a HS diploma, and his annual salary is about $21K a year. Because we lived together for so long before we were married (lived together 13 years, married 7 years) we never really combined our finances -- instead we have always taken a "yours" "mine" and "ours" approach to household finances, where we have a joint checking account and then each maintain our own accounts as well.
I currently pay 100% of the following bills: Mortgage (including taxes and insurance), 2 car payments (both needed, no public transport available), health insurance, electric, cable, landline phone (we need to keep this), water/sewer. Total household bills I pay: $2,370. I also pay $241 per month combined in (a very small amount of rotating) consumer debt and my student loan, allof which is my own responsiblity.
My husband pays: afterschool care for our child, internet, car insurance, cell phones - which total $350 per month. He also pays his own disability and life insurance through his employer (and I don't know how much that total is). He also has one credit card (balance unknown) that he pays monthly. He also contributes $220 per month toward random joint expenses (usually groceries), and contributes an unknown amount to a 401K. (His employer matches at 5% of salary, so I imagine that's what he's contributing. I don't have any retirement savings, but I will get income from a trust after my mother dies.)
I feel like I'm drowning. I started a new job last year, and at that time took over the health insurance (formerly we'd been insured through his employer, my insurance is much better) but also went to a 2x per month payroll system which means I only get 24 checks per year. I am so tightly budgeted to meet our household expenses that I hardly ever have a cent left over for personal spending. (This weekend I'm going to round up books to sell for a cash in an effort to raise a couple of hundred dollars for Christmas presents.) We also have annual problems with our home heating bills (oil heat, we pay about $3k a year to heat our home). For many years, we had depended on a property tax rebate to pay about half the heat, but that program unexpectedly ended this year. My husband sold an unused posession to raise $1200 to pay half the oil, and I'm hoping the tax refund will pay the other half. We have always been a paycheck-to-paycheck family, but I had hoped with my new job and higher salary that would go away. Instead, its gotten worse in many ways.
Over the past few months I have tried to discuss the distribution of who pays what with my husband several times, but he simply refuses to have the conversation -- I think because he's very uncomforable talking with anyone about money. Partly my concerns are emotional - I got a big raise when I took this new job (over $10K per year) but because I took on the health insurance my actual, in my pocket available cash is actually much less than it has ever been. I sent him a spreadsheet, which he never opened. I've tried to have the conversation with him in person, but he simply refuses to discuss it, or disclose what his actual after-taxes-and-things-he's-currently-paying income is.
They say that money destroys relationships, and the only problem I have with our current relationship is that I'm so stressed about money all the time, and we do talk about specific expenses (he wants us to combine internet and cable, which would save me money but he wants me to take the whole expense and I'm not willing to do that) but he refuses to participate in any conversation about our household financial health as a whole.
As he has now hit his 25 year mark with his current employer (and thus becomes eligible for a host of retirement benefits that come with that status) I would like him to start looking for a job that pays more money, but he's not willing to discuss that. I will probably end up taking a second job next fall to pay the oil (I should have done that this fall, but the idea of going back to working two jobs made me burst into tears every time I talked about it, so he found this other solution by selling something.)
I always thought that when we (a family of 3) cracked the $60K a year mark, that our financial situation would get better. It's not. I know that's partly the economy, but I also feel like if there was better communication between us about money that we could find some ways to free up at least a little extra every month.
My questions:
- Is it unrealistic for me to think that we should be able to save and maybe even have disposable income on a household income of $66K a year?
- What strategies can I use to get my husband more comfortable discussing household income with me, and maybe move to a system where we both contribute set amounts to a joint account that bills are paid from?
What I don't need:
- Suggestions for YNAB or other budgeting tools. I'm good at using them. This is much more of a communication question than a budgeting question.
Yeah, you need to not accept his stonewalling. He's hoping you'll give up and go away and he can keep not thinking about it, but that's unacceptable. I don't know what exactly it will take to make him pay attention—you may need to try various approaches—but you can't give up or your life will simply get worse.
posted by languagehat at 3:03 PM on November 20, 2013 [6 favorites]
posted by languagehat at 3:03 PM on November 20, 2013 [6 favorites]
Do you file taxes together? That should give you at least an annual insight into what he makes. Husband, I'm feeling way too financially stretched. I need you to take on more of the monthly bills. I'm simply not going to be able to keep paying (some combination of) the electric, cable, landline phone (we need to keep this), water/sewer. And stop paying them. You've done all you can and he won't meet you partway, so respond with action, which he may respond to. If I needed $ for gifts, cable tv would be cut in a second. If I were you, I'd start a personal savings account, because it's really important to have an emergency fund.
In my marriage, I bent way over backwards to be financially fair, and my ex- didn't. So, if you're in the US, recognize that you have a right to 1/2 the value of of his pension, savings, etc. He has a right to 1/2 the value of the house, etc.
posted by theora55 at 3:05 PM on November 20, 2013 [4 favorites]
In my marriage, I bent way over backwards to be financially fair, and my ex- didn't. So, if you're in the US, recognize that you have a right to 1/2 the value of of his pension, savings, etc. He has a right to 1/2 the value of the house, etc.
posted by theora55 at 3:05 PM on November 20, 2013 [4 favorites]
Would saving for your child's college tuition be a vector into the discussion that he could handle?
posted by carmicha at 3:06 PM on November 20, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by carmicha at 3:06 PM on November 20, 2013 [2 favorites]
If you are consistently looking toward tax rebates and selling things to heat your home, you have to look at a serious budget review.
Not knowing how he's allocating his funds puts both of you in danger, financially. I would stop taking on an "I pay this, you pay that" strategy and start pooling your bills and decide what percentage of the total amount due between the two of you.
posted by xingcat at 3:11 PM on November 20, 2013 [14 favorites]
Not knowing how he's allocating his funds puts both of you in danger, financially. I would stop taking on an "I pay this, you pay that" strategy and start pooling your bills and decide what percentage of the total amount due between the two of you.
posted by xingcat at 3:11 PM on November 20, 2013 [14 favorites]
So, if you're in the US, recognize that you have a right to 1/2 the value of of his pension, savings, etc. He has a right to 1/2 the value of the house, etc.
NB this will vary state to state in the US.
posted by elizardbits at 3:13 PM on November 20, 2013 [2 favorites]
NB this will vary state to state in the US.
posted by elizardbits at 3:13 PM on November 20, 2013 [2 favorites]
I had this setup with my now-ex-husband, we had a shared account that ALL household bills were paid from. We were both making about the same amount of money, so we contributed an equal amount (combined to slightly above an overestimate of what each month's bills would cost, including groceries and all "shared" expenses) each month, split based on how we were paid (I contributed twice a month, he contributed weekly).
This let us keep whatever was left for personal spending, but have a "fair" distribution of funds for needs. I kept track of it all, making sure bills were paid etc. In your situation, if you are making 2/3 the household total, then you could do a 65/35 or something instead of 50/50. This would mean that rather than focusing on specific bills, you were each contributing the same *percentage* of income, and then combining internet/cable would be no issue. It would also help you get a feel of how much your household was *actually* spending each month, as you'd have to both put all cards on the table for shared expenses and calculate your "this is how much we need in the shared account each month to cover everything" amount. We also took things like your heat (large yearly bills) and split it into 12 chunks and factored that into the monthly contribution.
This system didn't fix ALL of the arguments about money in my household, but it helped a LOT.
Good luck, I know how frustrating this sort of thing can be.
posted by HermitDog at 3:18 PM on November 20, 2013 [12 favorites]
This let us keep whatever was left for personal spending, but have a "fair" distribution of funds for needs. I kept track of it all, making sure bills were paid etc. In your situation, if you are making 2/3 the household total, then you could do a 65/35 or something instead of 50/50. This would mean that rather than focusing on specific bills, you were each contributing the same *percentage* of income, and then combining internet/cable would be no issue. It would also help you get a feel of how much your household was *actually* spending each month, as you'd have to both put all cards on the table for shared expenses and calculate your "this is how much we need in the shared account each month to cover everything" amount. We also took things like your heat (large yearly bills) and split it into 12 chunks and factored that into the monthly contribution.
This system didn't fix ALL of the arguments about money in my household, but it helped a LOT.
Good luck, I know how frustrating this sort of thing can be.
posted by HermitDog at 3:18 PM on November 20, 2013 [12 favorites]
Can you get to the heart of his hesitation to discuss finances with you? Is it that he really wants to keep the money stuff separate and maintain financial privacy? Or is it that money talking makes him uncomfortable and the act of talking about this is too hard for him to bear?
If he has a hard time talking about money, but is not, in principle, opposed to sharing knowledge with you, then I'd see if there's a way he can give you access to his financial info without sitting down to confer. With bank login information or bank statements you should be able to determine how much he's making and where it's going on your own, if you're comfortable with that, and then present him with a plan.
If he doesn't want you to know about his financial situation, you have a deeper problem, one that may justify counseling.
Whatever you decide, if you are really living this close to the bone, PLEASE cancel your f'in cable bill. If you also have smart phones with Internet access, consider dropping your home internet. I've spent a lot of time talking to people who were in the process of losing their homes over the past few years, and I still can't get over how many people beg the bank to lower the mortgage by $100/month one minute, and then the next minute tell me that they're paying $80 or $120 or however much to Comcast. If I've talked to a dozen people willing to skirt homelessness rather than drop cable, I can't help but think there must be thousands nationwide making the same decision. PLEASE, don't amuse yourself into poverty. Don't buy the lie that entertainment is more important than financial well-being.
posted by croutonsupafreak at 3:24 PM on November 20, 2013 [21 favorites]
If he has a hard time talking about money, but is not, in principle, opposed to sharing knowledge with you, then I'd see if there's a way he can give you access to his financial info without sitting down to confer. With bank login information or bank statements you should be able to determine how much he's making and where it's going on your own, if you're comfortable with that, and then present him with a plan.
If he doesn't want you to know about his financial situation, you have a deeper problem, one that may justify counseling.
Whatever you decide, if you are really living this close to the bone, PLEASE cancel your f'in cable bill. If you also have smart phones with Internet access, consider dropping your home internet. I've spent a lot of time talking to people who were in the process of losing their homes over the past few years, and I still can't get over how many people beg the bank to lower the mortgage by $100/month one minute, and then the next minute tell me that they're paying $80 or $120 or however much to Comcast. If I've talked to a dozen people willing to skirt homelessness rather than drop cable, I can't help but think there must be thousands nationwide making the same decision. PLEASE, don't amuse yourself into poverty. Don't buy the lie that entertainment is more important than financial well-being.
posted by croutonsupafreak at 3:24 PM on November 20, 2013 [21 favorites]
This isn't acceptable behavior on your husband's part. If you can't get him to talk about it, you both need to go to counseling to figure out how to hash this out. You have been married for 7 years and you are legally connected when it comes to money. Not having transparency about things that you are both legally responsible for is not ok. Period.
Have you told your husband that you feel like you are drowning under the weight of your financial burdens? Is he dismissive of the stress that you're under? Is he ok with you getting a second job despite being so stressed you're in tears at the thought of it? If that's the case, you need to get to counseling pronto. There are much larger problems afoot if he's not concerned about how this is affecting you emotionally and mentally.
posted by quince at 3:26 PM on November 20, 2013 [23 favorites]
Have you told your husband that you feel like you are drowning under the weight of your financial burdens? Is he dismissive of the stress that you're under? Is he ok with you getting a second job despite being so stressed you're in tears at the thought of it? If that's the case, you need to get to counseling pronto. There are much larger problems afoot if he's not concerned about how this is affecting you emotionally and mentally.
posted by quince at 3:26 PM on November 20, 2013 [23 favorites]
Approach this as protecting your child. Find a financial adviser who can go over your budget, investments, and plan for what happens if one or both of you die. Make new wills. Kid is gonna hope for help for college, you have to start planning now. Making it about the kid may be enough to shake him out of whatever he doesn't want to deal with.
Or maybe he's planning on leaving you and has been hiding most of "his" money away.
and n'thing cut the cable, but not the home internet.
posted by Sophont at 3:32 PM on November 20, 2013 [2 favorites]
Or maybe he's planning on leaving you and has been hiding most of "his" money away.
and n'thing cut the cable, but not the home internet.
posted by Sophont at 3:32 PM on November 20, 2013 [2 favorites]
You guys absolutely need a family budget, and "not wanting to talk about it" wouldn't really be acceptable in my relationship. For long-term expenses like heating oil, car insurance, etc, we each of us pay a little bit into a savings account every month so we're not blindsided by them, but obviously that's difficult to do if he won't come to the table. I did some back-of-the-envelope math and it does seem like he should be able to contribute a little more to the household unless his credit card bills or his retirement savings are very high. The fact that he's trying to shift more expenses into your column without looking at your incomes and contributions is really worrying.
It's hard to give advice without knowing your husband or why he's reticent to do this pretty basic family job. Is he the kind of guy who would be more amenable to meeting with an expert? Does he value his independence and need assurances that you don't want to control what he spends his non-household money on? Do you need to do all the math, completely ignoring his other circumstances, and then present him with an ultimatum? (IE, "Honey, you need to contribute $X to the joint account every month to pay 1/3 of our household bills, and $Y amount to a joint savings, or we'll have to stop doing Z")
posted by muddgirl at 3:34 PM on November 20, 2013 [2 favorites]
It's hard to give advice without knowing your husband or why he's reticent to do this pretty basic family job. Is he the kind of guy who would be more amenable to meeting with an expert? Does he value his independence and need assurances that you don't want to control what he spends his non-household money on? Do you need to do all the math, completely ignoring his other circumstances, and then present him with an ultimatum? (IE, "Honey, you need to contribute $X to the joint account every month to pay 1/3 of our household bills, and $Y amount to a joint savings, or we'll have to stop doing Z")
posted by muddgirl at 3:34 PM on November 20, 2013 [2 favorites]
I'd just be really honest: "I feel like we pay unequal shares of our income toward our bills and financial goals. That feeling is building into resentment. If not stopped from growing, the resentment will probably end our marriage. It's that serious. I know you aren't comfortable, but as a 40+ year-old man, I need you to find a way to do this, right now."
posted by Houstonian at 3:37 PM on November 20, 2013 [22 favorites]
posted by Houstonian at 3:37 PM on November 20, 2013 [22 favorites]
First convo:
I can tell you are hesitant to talk about money. It's causing me a lot of frustration and stress that we can't discuss it openly. Is there something I can do that would make it easier for us to have this conversation? Perhaps marital counseling? I really need your help. Please talk to me.
If you can get him to open up (create a safe space, talk calmly, use I-statements, etc etc), then just roll with it and stay patient. Don't start bringing up money issues at that time. Stay focused on the issue of being able to talk about money and establishing ground rules for a later conversation about money. Make it clear you need his help and value his contributions - financial and verbal. At the end of the conversation, if it goes well, ask if you can set up a time to go over the budget.
Second convo (if first doesn't work):
I've looked at our budget and unless we can bring in more money then we have to make some cuts: cable, entertainment, etc. (Can you move to a less expensive home?) Unless he comes up with a brilliant plan, start cutting.
And for crying out loud you need your own retirement and savings.
(I'm single but I know a little bit about not wanting to talk about things. My suggestions are based on the assumption that he's uncomfortable discussing money, and not that he's hiding something from you).
posted by bunderful at 3:39 PM on November 20, 2013 [4 favorites]
I can tell you are hesitant to talk about money. It's causing me a lot of frustration and stress that we can't discuss it openly. Is there something I can do that would make it easier for us to have this conversation? Perhaps marital counseling? I really need your help. Please talk to me.
If you can get him to open up (create a safe space, talk calmly, use I-statements, etc etc), then just roll with it and stay patient. Don't start bringing up money issues at that time. Stay focused on the issue of being able to talk about money and establishing ground rules for a later conversation about money. Make it clear you need his help and value his contributions - financial and verbal. At the end of the conversation, if it goes well, ask if you can set up a time to go over the budget.
Second convo (if first doesn't work):
I've looked at our budget and unless we can bring in more money then we have to make some cuts: cable, entertainment, etc. (Can you move to a less expensive home?) Unless he comes up with a brilliant plan, start cutting.
And for crying out loud you need your own retirement and savings.
(I'm single but I know a little bit about not wanting to talk about things. My suggestions are based on the assumption that he's uncomfortable discussing money, and not that he's hiding something from you).
posted by bunderful at 3:39 PM on November 20, 2013 [4 favorites]
Also, I am the primary breadwinner and I'm also by choice primarily responsible for making sure our household finances are running smoothly. We did go through a period of readjustment with some heated discussions and disagreements last year when I felt it wasn't fair that I was paying for basically all household repair expenses. But I never felt like I was being ignored or dismissed.
posted by muddgirl at 3:50 PM on November 20, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by muddgirl at 3:50 PM on November 20, 2013 [1 favorite]
First conversation is to ask for his pay stub and copies of the bills he pays. You put those in Excel along with your pay stub and bills. Then you start working the numbers.
This way he doesn't have to talk about money. You may need him to get more insurance info from work so you can decide whether you should be insuring separately, but that should only require asking HR for a PDF or paper packet that he can pass on to you.
His refusal to engage is forfeiture; this is too important to wait for him to decide to get comfortable. All the data you need should be available in printed or electronic format.
It honestly doesn't sound like there's a whole lot of decisions to be made, aside from which insurance scenario is best and maybe calling the phone company to get a better plan. Y'all don't need to talk all that much about it, just get it under control yourself and then he can go to therapy or go... wherever, just stop being an active roadblock in getting your finances under control.
posted by Lyn Never at 3:50 PM on November 20, 2013
This way he doesn't have to talk about money. You may need him to get more insurance info from work so you can decide whether you should be insuring separately, but that should only require asking HR for a PDF or paper packet that he can pass on to you.
His refusal to engage is forfeiture; this is too important to wait for him to decide to get comfortable. All the data you need should be available in printed or electronic format.
It honestly doesn't sound like there's a whole lot of decisions to be made, aside from which insurance scenario is best and maybe calling the phone company to get a better plan. Y'all don't need to talk all that much about it, just get it under control yourself and then he can go to therapy or go... wherever, just stop being an active roadblock in getting your finances under control.
posted by Lyn Never at 3:50 PM on November 20, 2013
I think everyone has given you great advice so far for opening talks, but if he completely stonewalls you about money, then you need to figure out a budget for yourself you CAN afford. even with a income of 40k by yourself you still need a little bit of emergency money.
sit down with a friend who is great with that kind of stuff or a financial advisor, or even just with yourself when you're feeling honest, and work out a budget of what you can actually afford.
if your husband won't talk to you about this then I think it's just your own budgeting issue then. "I can't afford cable. netflix will have to do." "I can't afford a second car, I'll have to drop my husband off in the mornings." "our heat and mortgage is too much, we need to move." if he objects to some of your cuts maybe he can pick up that expense or you can attempt to reopen a discussion of finances then.
but it sounds like you're going to have to do it for yourself. it's not fun to be stressed out about money all the time. I pretty recently had to move out from a duplex I loved because it strained my finances too much. it's hard because for you there's probably money there that could be tapped into for your household expenses, but if he's unwilling to even discuss, I guess that isn't an option.
posted by euphoria066 at 3:53 PM on November 20, 2013 [7 favorites]
sit down with a friend who is great with that kind of stuff or a financial advisor, or even just with yourself when you're feeling honest, and work out a budget of what you can actually afford.
if your husband won't talk to you about this then I think it's just your own budgeting issue then. "I can't afford cable. netflix will have to do." "I can't afford a second car, I'll have to drop my husband off in the mornings." "our heat and mortgage is too much, we need to move." if he objects to some of your cuts maybe he can pick up that expense or you can attempt to reopen a discussion of finances then.
but it sounds like you're going to have to do it for yourself. it's not fun to be stressed out about money all the time. I pretty recently had to move out from a duplex I loved because it strained my finances too much. it's hard because for you there's probably money there that could be tapped into for your household expenses, but if he's unwilling to even discuss, I guess that isn't an option.
posted by euphoria066 at 3:53 PM on November 20, 2013 [7 favorites]
"Hey, we're both getting up there in age and we have a child together. What if something were to happen to one of us? What if we had unexpected expenses that were urgent for the safety of our child? I think we both need to better understand our financial situation. Therefore, I would like to compile all of our information and come up with a general plan to go forward. I am putting everything I have (or know) in this box. As you find stuff, could you please put it in this other box? I checked out a book from the library and here is a comprehensive list of financial documents. Some of the stuff doesn't apply to us, but anything that does needs to be set aside (or written down) and put into a box. In the coming weeks, either of us can look through the boxes, and then we (either me, you, or both of us together) will compile everything together. After we have a snapshot of our situation, then together we can decide what is best for our household and our child. I am not going to make any changes or do anything without talking to you first. This is just to get a handle of where we stand."
If after a couple of weeks you are staring at an empty box, then you definitely know where you stand. Good luck!
posted by 99percentfake at 3:54 PM on November 20, 2013
If after a couple of weeks you are staring at an empty box, then you definitely know where you stand. Good luck!
posted by 99percentfake at 3:54 PM on November 20, 2013
Why would he want to talk about it? He's had to make no improvements to his life to help himself because you've paid for it all.
If he can't pay for his car, sell it and use the money for marriage counseling.
He either cares about his family- and you- or he cares about being taken care of.
That he'd rather have you stressed out than help is the deal breaker to me. He's taken advantage of you to the point you're living outside of your means and thinks silence will make it go away- which is childish at best.
posted by haplesschild at 3:55 PM on November 20, 2013 [8 favorites]
If he can't pay for his car, sell it and use the money for marriage counseling.
He either cares about his family- and you- or he cares about being taken care of.
That he'd rather have you stressed out than help is the deal breaker to me. He's taken advantage of you to the point you're living outside of your means and thinks silence will make it go away- which is childish at best.
posted by haplesschild at 3:55 PM on November 20, 2013 [8 favorites]
It seems like part of what you're dealing with is inherent to the arrangement you have, in which essentially your fates are intertwined, but your accounts are separate. So he doesn't feel any obligation to talk about what goes in and out of the accounts, as if you can each be responsible for yourself, when that's not possible. (Were that possible, you'd have a different question.)
So unfortunately, I'm stuck with the solution mentioned elsewhere, which is to say, "I can no longer afford to pay X, so I won't be paying it anymore. If we can't talk about it, we will lose the house/a car/cable/whatever." I don't know what else you can do. You are being left to make decisions on your own about how to spend the money you earn, and you don't have access to his money under current conditions; I don't know what you can do except make the best decisions you can. Obviously, this is a terrible outcome, but I'm not sure what you can force. (You're getting a lot of suggestions that are based on the theory that he'll give you the information and just doesn't want to talk, which kind of solves part of the problem, but would still put you in the position of making unilateral decisions.)
I know couples who keep their funds separate, but it seems like you have a problem just getting to the point where you're living cooperatively, which is more -- not less -- important if you do the separate finances thing.
I'm so sorry; it sounds both scary and sad.
posted by Linda_Holmes at 3:55 PM on November 20, 2013 [3 favorites]
So unfortunately, I'm stuck with the solution mentioned elsewhere, which is to say, "I can no longer afford to pay X, so I won't be paying it anymore. If we can't talk about it, we will lose the house/a car/cable/whatever." I don't know what else you can do. You are being left to make decisions on your own about how to spend the money you earn, and you don't have access to his money under current conditions; I don't know what you can do except make the best decisions you can. Obviously, this is a terrible outcome, but I'm not sure what you can force. (You're getting a lot of suggestions that are based on the theory that he'll give you the information and just doesn't want to talk, which kind of solves part of the problem, but would still put you in the position of making unilateral decisions.)
I know couples who keep their funds separate, but it seems like you have a problem just getting to the point where you're living cooperatively, which is more -- not less -- important if you do the separate finances thing.
I'm so sorry; it sounds both scary and sad.
posted by Linda_Holmes at 3:55 PM on November 20, 2013 [3 favorites]
If he's only spending about $570 per month of his paycheque on family bills, then it sounds to me like he is stonewalling because he's trying to cover up the fact that he is spending a LOT of money on other stuff that he doesn't want you to know about. You should not have to consider getting a second job to pay the bills.
I would sit him down and make it clear that you are extremely stressed about money and that things need to change. In my opinion, a marriage should include full disclosure about financial matters. If my husband tried to pull this kind of shit I would be livid.
posted by barnoley at 4:04 PM on November 20, 2013 [40 favorites]
I would sit him down and make it clear that you are extremely stressed about money and that things need to change. In my opinion, a marriage should include full disclosure about financial matters. If my husband tried to pull this kind of shit I would be livid.
posted by barnoley at 4:04 PM on November 20, 2013 [40 favorites]
This is a tough one. I'm going to bet that you've already tried several of the approaches already suggested (telling him you're worried, getting mad, making demands) or you wouldn't be asking strangers on the net for help.
When I read your post, two kinds of red flags jump out at me.
First, financial. You have no idea if he's saving for retirement or how much. You don't know how much debt he has. The former will have huge consequences for your combined life together somewhere down the road. The latter is crucial for understanding your day to day finances. Of course you already know this is a problem and is a big part of why you asked that question.
Second, relational. He's totally letting you down. My gut instinct tells me that when he has to talk about this issue with you, it stirs up a lot of shame about his ability as a provider (that you make 2X his salary and pay all the big bills) and it's easier for him to just not deal. Meanwhile you are left with all the responsibilities of decisionmaking, and don't even know all the facts, see point one. There may be other things going on as well that make him so guarded, that intersect with money issues as well, that could invoke that shame/avoidant response.
I'm going to gently point out that a really good working definition of abuse is when one person's shame about their bad behavior toward a person they purport to love is treated as more important than the obvious hurt that their behavior inflicts.
Does he hide/protect his credit card info, his retirement info? Could you get it if you looked for it? If not, do you think he might be hiding them for a reason? If they are bad news--either financially (astronomical balances on the card, no retirement) or relationally (hiding expenses relating to a bad habit--gambling, affairs), you need to know. In a healthy marriage you would ask him for this info and he'd happily share, but frankly this is not, and so you might consider getting them by whatever means necessary. Intercept his bill, call his HR at work, put a keylogger on your computer to get his bank account password. Normally I wouldn't advise this kind of underhanded behavior, but I think it's crucial that you get the facts and in this situation I think it might well be warranted.
That kind of privacy violation is really outside the bounds, but frankly, in situations like this where attempts to deal with serious matters in good faith like grown ups has totally failed, I think the situation often times does need to move to out-and-out crisis to get some motion, to show that there really needs to be change, honest to god. If that needs to happen, perhaps better to err on the side of getting the actual facts in the process and then taking it from there. If it's financial disaster then you know what you're up against. If it's relational disaster, same thing. If it's not--well, that's a form of relief, and at least you have the facts.
As a grim thought, it occurs to me that another way to force getting that info is in financial discovery due to divorce proceedings.
This is a really hard situation and I've been through something not dissimilar myself. I feel for you and wish I knew the magic words. I wish I could give you a hug. Good luck.
posted by Sublimity at 4:16 PM on November 20, 2013 [9 favorites]
When I read your post, two kinds of red flags jump out at me.
First, financial. You have no idea if he's saving for retirement or how much. You don't know how much debt he has. The former will have huge consequences for your combined life together somewhere down the road. The latter is crucial for understanding your day to day finances. Of course you already know this is a problem and is a big part of why you asked that question.
Second, relational. He's totally letting you down. My gut instinct tells me that when he has to talk about this issue with you, it stirs up a lot of shame about his ability as a provider (that you make 2X his salary and pay all the big bills) and it's easier for him to just not deal. Meanwhile you are left with all the responsibilities of decisionmaking, and don't even know all the facts, see point one. There may be other things going on as well that make him so guarded, that intersect with money issues as well, that could invoke that shame/avoidant response.
I'm going to gently point out that a really good working definition of abuse is when one person's shame about their bad behavior toward a person they purport to love is treated as more important than the obvious hurt that their behavior inflicts.
Does he hide/protect his credit card info, his retirement info? Could you get it if you looked for it? If not, do you think he might be hiding them for a reason? If they are bad news--either financially (astronomical balances on the card, no retirement) or relationally (hiding expenses relating to a bad habit--gambling, affairs), you need to know. In a healthy marriage you would ask him for this info and he'd happily share, but frankly this is not, and so you might consider getting them by whatever means necessary. Intercept his bill, call his HR at work, put a keylogger on your computer to get his bank account password. Normally I wouldn't advise this kind of underhanded behavior, but I think it's crucial that you get the facts and in this situation I think it might well be warranted.
That kind of privacy violation is really outside the bounds, but frankly, in situations like this where attempts to deal with serious matters in good faith like grown ups has totally failed, I think the situation often times does need to move to out-and-out crisis to get some motion, to show that there really needs to be change, honest to god. If that needs to happen, perhaps better to err on the side of getting the actual facts in the process and then taking it from there. If it's financial disaster then you know what you're up against. If it's relational disaster, same thing. If it's not--well, that's a form of relief, and at least you have the facts.
As a grim thought, it occurs to me that another way to force getting that info is in financial discovery due to divorce proceedings.
This is a really hard situation and I've been through something not dissimilar myself. I feel for you and wish I knew the magic words. I wish I could give you a hug. Good luck.
posted by Sublimity at 4:16 PM on November 20, 2013 [9 favorites]
Honestly, reading this, my first thought was that your husband has a boatload of credit card debt and doesn't want you to know about it. I've had friends who've been in that situation, and...well, and this is what it looked like.
You have a household income of over $65k a year. I'm guessing that your mortgage payment is--what, $1500 a month, at the most? Something smells wrong about this--you shouldn't be struggling this hard in what (I'm guessing) is a relatively affordable place.
For me, this would be a dealbreaking thing. If your husband can't talk to you about your finances, which here also means your future and your child's future, then you don't have a husband--you've got two children. He's saying "I don't want to participate in adult discussion or adult decisions about our family and our finances," and up until now, you've pretty much let him. But it's not an OK thing for him to do, and it's not something you should be accepting.
posted by MeghanC at 4:24 PM on November 20, 2013 [8 favorites]
You have a household income of over $65k a year. I'm guessing that your mortgage payment is--what, $1500 a month, at the most? Something smells wrong about this--you shouldn't be struggling this hard in what (I'm guessing) is a relatively affordable place.
For me, this would be a dealbreaking thing. If your husband can't talk to you about your finances, which here also means your future and your child's future, then you don't have a husband--you've got two children. He's saying "I don't want to participate in adult discussion or adult decisions about our family and our finances," and up until now, you've pretty much let him. But it's not an OK thing for him to do, and it's not something you should be accepting.
posted by MeghanC at 4:24 PM on November 20, 2013 [8 favorites]
You might want to consider pulling his credit report. It's not generally something I would suggest, but given the stonewalling, it's an easy to fine out if he's hiding a mountain of debt from you.
posted by whoaali at 4:43 PM on November 20, 2013 [16 favorites]
posted by whoaali at 4:43 PM on November 20, 2013 [16 favorites]
Obviously he can talk about finances if he's willing to say that you should combine a bill and have you pay for it in full. That's plenty of talking right there.
Instead of crying, I would be angry. You are on the edge, almost couldn't buy heating oil? I've been there, not putting the heat on at this time of year, wearing warm clothes inside, praying it wouldn't freeze until we could afford a load of oil before the pipes froze. To think of doing that with a small child would be unthinkable for me. And that wasn't due to any fault with my husband, it was job loss and the economy and thank goodness our situation improved --and now we are downsized to a place that is well within our means, but it's so toasty and we have financial cushion, which is so, so nice. Think about the feeling of relief there for a moment. You can't imagine how nice it feels to be out from under all of that.
It doesn't matter how much money he makes: what matters is that he does not take your feelings into account, and if mama ain't happy, ain't nobody happy. I would stop worrying about how to get him to talk and start worrying about how I could support myself and my child without him. Sounds like you could do really well in a rental with heat included, minus a second car payment, and minus the aggravation of tears over thinking about getting a second job to heat your home, selling off your possessions for presents, etc. Really? He's okay with you selling books to buy presents?
I too have known people who have separate finances, and where the woman makes more than a man. They have a joint account for household and mortgage, and two separate accounts. He is responsible for his own car payment and credit card bills, and so is she. But they talk about it.
Maybe I'm just a huge bitch, but I would be: okay, you don't want to talk about it, let's part ways. You don't have to argue, just say that. That would be my strategy, because you are not just talking about your own mental health and well being, but that of your child. I frankly wouldn't care why he wouldn't want to talk after that. Not my problem.
posted by Marie Mon Dieu at 4:48 PM on November 20, 2013 [2 favorites]
Instead of crying, I would be angry. You are on the edge, almost couldn't buy heating oil? I've been there, not putting the heat on at this time of year, wearing warm clothes inside, praying it wouldn't freeze until we could afford a load of oil before the pipes froze. To think of doing that with a small child would be unthinkable for me. And that wasn't due to any fault with my husband, it was job loss and the economy and thank goodness our situation improved --and now we are downsized to a place that is well within our means, but it's so toasty and we have financial cushion, which is so, so nice. Think about the feeling of relief there for a moment. You can't imagine how nice it feels to be out from under all of that.
It doesn't matter how much money he makes: what matters is that he does not take your feelings into account, and if mama ain't happy, ain't nobody happy. I would stop worrying about how to get him to talk and start worrying about how I could support myself and my child without him. Sounds like you could do really well in a rental with heat included, minus a second car payment, and minus the aggravation of tears over thinking about getting a second job to heat your home, selling off your possessions for presents, etc. Really? He's okay with you selling books to buy presents?
I too have known people who have separate finances, and where the woman makes more than a man. They have a joint account for household and mortgage, and two separate accounts. He is responsible for his own car payment and credit card bills, and so is she. But they talk about it.
Maybe I'm just a huge bitch, but I would be: okay, you don't want to talk about it, let's part ways. You don't have to argue, just say that. That would be my strategy, because you are not just talking about your own mental health and well being, but that of your child. I frankly wouldn't care why he wouldn't want to talk after that. Not my problem.
posted by Marie Mon Dieu at 4:48 PM on November 20, 2013 [2 favorites]
I'm so sorry. You two should be working together, as a team. That your spouse will not even discuss finances that impact the entire team makes him sound selfish and childish. If I were you, I would be frustrated beyond belief at this point!
You are, frankly, putting up with way too much at this,point. I do understand there are some old-fashioned men who feel like the man should be the breadwinner and maybe even feel threatened by a woman making more than a man, but I can't see how YOUR SPOUSE could have issues like that, since he is certainly willing enough for you to pay some of his bills for him. You two have a child together, and yet you can't talk about money? That's bullshit.
If I were you! I would sit him down and explain it this way:
"Look, Honey, I've reached the end of my rope. I can't to be stressed out about money all the time! I am paying so many bills I can't get ahead of expenses every month. It is tearing me up.
What hurts most, though, is that you know how stressed out I am, and you won't help me. You won't talk to me about expenses, help me figure out a working strategy. We're supposed to be a team. I want us to work together!
"But, like I said, I've reached the end of my rope. If you WON'T work with me on this, I'll just have to start looking out for myself. I can't afford to pay 4 times the bills on twice the salary, and that's how my math says the spending is going. I cannot pay for your car, I cannot pay for the cable. From this day forward, I won't be paying those bills."
posted by misha at 4:52 PM on November 20, 2013 [7 favorites]
You are, frankly, putting up with way too much at this,point. I do understand there are some old-fashioned men who feel like the man should be the breadwinner and maybe even feel threatened by a woman making more than a man, but I can't see how YOUR SPOUSE could have issues like that, since he is certainly willing enough for you to pay some of his bills for him. You two have a child together, and yet you can't talk about money? That's bullshit.
If I were you! I would sit him down and explain it this way:
"Look, Honey, I've reached the end of my rope. I can't to be stressed out about money all the time! I am paying so many bills I can't get ahead of expenses every month. It is tearing me up.
What hurts most, though, is that you know how stressed out I am, and you won't help me. You won't talk to me about expenses, help me figure out a working strategy. We're supposed to be a team. I want us to work together!
"But, like I said, I've reached the end of my rope. If you WON'T work with me on this, I'll just have to start looking out for myself. I can't afford to pay 4 times the bills on twice the salary, and that's how my math says the spending is going. I cannot pay for your car, I cannot pay for the cable. From this day forward, I won't be paying those bills."
posted by misha at 4:52 PM on November 20, 2013 [7 favorites]
This sounds a lot like codependency and enabling to me on your end, and learned helplessness and passive aggression on your partner's.
Would you be willing to separate temporararily to let him know that you're serious about him getting his act together for the sake of you and your kids? That's what I'd do.
posted by These Birds of a Feather at 5:00 PM on November 20, 2013 [3 favorites]
Would you be willing to separate temporararily to let him know that you're serious about him getting his act together for the sake of you and your kids? That's what I'd do.
posted by These Birds of a Feather at 5:00 PM on November 20, 2013 [3 favorites]
What strategies can I use to get my husband more comfortable discussing household income with me, and maybe move to a system where we both contribute set amounts to a joint account that bills are paid from?
By first putting at top of the agenda what total household cutbacks will be made, by you. The first strategy for successful communication is engagement. That means he needs to feel this is not about you getting him to talk. Let him know in advance that he should bring his grievances about you to the conversation. Otherwise he will continue to not come to the table.
posted by Kruger5 at 5:08 PM on November 20, 2013 [2 favorites]
By first putting at top of the agenda what total household cutbacks will be made, by you. The first strategy for successful communication is engagement. That means he needs to feel this is not about you getting him to talk. Let him know in advance that he should bring his grievances about you to the conversation. Otherwise he will continue to not come to the table.
posted by Kruger5 at 5:08 PM on November 20, 2013 [2 favorites]
You are not being unreasonable.
He's not acting like an adult OR a spouse - you have a mooching roommate. A mooching roommate whose actions have a huuuuge effect on you and your child.
Think about it though: having a roommate would be easier. You'd be in actual control of YOUR money and YOUR budget and able to make autonomous uncontested decisions ("this is your rent and what's included"). He'd have to pay the rent, or be evicted. There'd be rules. It may be easier not to have his 'help', and just deal with known entitities (your money).
That he's stonewalling you and you have no idea what his finances are like is scary. It's a big deal. As the adult child of someone who has very very weird ideas about money and does weird things with it - I beg you to get counseling (if only just for yourself), see an accountant, and see a lawyer. If he won't talk and work with you, legally untangle yourself.
I don't know what went on during my parent's marriage, but after the divorce my parent has done weird money things to the adult children, her neighbours, and so on. You need to model to your child how to deal with this parent and protect himself from whatever he's doing.
If you are otherwise happy and don't want to divorce, find some way of legally cordoning him off: Your money and your budget is yours, and you rent a room to him and rent includes food/internet/certain bills whatever - so that whatever he's doing at least doesn't effect you. (Can you even do this without divorce? I dont' know! Talk to a lawyer and see.)
posted by jrobin276 at 5:08 PM on November 20, 2013 [1 favorite]
He's not acting like an adult OR a spouse - you have a mooching roommate. A mooching roommate whose actions have a huuuuge effect on you and your child.
Think about it though: having a roommate would be easier. You'd be in actual control of YOUR money and YOUR budget and able to make autonomous uncontested decisions ("this is your rent and what's included"). He'd have to pay the rent, or be evicted. There'd be rules. It may be easier not to have his 'help', and just deal with known entitities (your money).
That he's stonewalling you and you have no idea what his finances are like is scary. It's a big deal. As the adult child of someone who has very very weird ideas about money and does weird things with it - I beg you to get counseling (if only just for yourself), see an accountant, and see a lawyer. If he won't talk and work with you, legally untangle yourself.
I don't know what went on during my parent's marriage, but after the divorce my parent has done weird money things to the adult children, her neighbours, and so on. You need to model to your child how to deal with this parent and protect himself from whatever he's doing.
If you are otherwise happy and don't want to divorce, find some way of legally cordoning him off: Your money and your budget is yours, and you rent a room to him and rent includes food/internet/certain bills whatever - so that whatever he's doing at least doesn't effect you. (Can you even do this without divorce? I dont' know! Talk to a lawyer and see.)
posted by jrobin276 at 5:08 PM on November 20, 2013 [1 favorite]
Let's be fact based.
- You contribute 68% of the household income and pay 82% of the household bills.
- 70% of your salary goes to bills versus 35% of your husbands.
Those ratios may appropriate, but yes you need to talk.
posted by 26.2 at 5:16 PM on November 20, 2013 [14 favorites]
- You contribute 68% of the household income and pay 82% of the household bills.
- 70% of your salary goes to bills versus 35% of your husbands.
Those ratios may appropriate, but yes you need to talk.
posted by 26.2 at 5:16 PM on November 20, 2013 [14 favorites]
Does he like to watch cable?
If he isn't willing to talk with you about your expenses, I guess you'll just have to find some way to spend less without his input. You probably aren't going to have much time to watch TV with a second job. Maybe you can find a way to save some money.
Usually, I'm a big advocate for actually talking to people, but you've tried that -- and you are having trouble paying for heat.
posted by yohko at 5:57 PM on November 20, 2013 [1 favorite]
If he isn't willing to talk with you about your expenses, I guess you'll just have to find some way to spend less without his input. You probably aren't going to have much time to watch TV with a second job. Maybe you can find a way to save some money.
Usually, I'm a big advocate for actually talking to people, but you've tried that -- and you are having trouble paying for heat.
posted by yohko at 5:57 PM on November 20, 2013 [1 favorite]
Legally, his debts are your debts, and his income is your income. You have every right to know what your family's income is, and to have access to your own resources. I second the snooping idea.
posted by ravioli at 6:19 PM on November 20, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by ravioli at 6:19 PM on November 20, 2013 [2 favorites]
Offer to pay all the household bills and present him with a bill? And then manage the bills even if that means cutting cable. Has that been suggested?
He is not being fair. He needs to hear that. For starters.
posted by Lesser Shrew at 6:46 PM on November 20, 2013
He is not being fair. He needs to hear that. For starters.
posted by Lesser Shrew at 6:46 PM on November 20, 2013
You need to be a lot more open with each other. My wife and I have always maintained separate accounts, but only because it makes it easier to avoid bouncing checks or overdrawing at the ATM. We are very open with one another about where we stand financially, what we want to spend money on, and so forth. We've been that way ever since we moved in together, four years before we were married. We have always presumed that we were in this together, so that our combined household income should pay for necessities and that we should equally share in discretionary income.
Your husband may be embarrassed by making less than you; I've talked with a number of men who find that uncomfortable, including professionals who both make more than $100,000 a year. But his embarrassment doesn't excuse him from his responsibility to his family. I think you should both list your income, your debts, your household expenses, and your financial aspirations (college fund, rainy day savings, vacations, neat tech stuff you want), and put them all on the table (maybe literally, if he won't open spreadsheets). Then see how the pieces fit together. Your contributions don't have to be equal in a strict financial sense, but they should be equal in the sense that you are both working for your family's happiness and success, and both willing to make compromises to attain that goal.
If he's not willing to do that, then counseling - couples or individual - would be my next suggestion. Though you might also send your question to Carolyn Hax, at the Washington Post, who is the only advice columnist I know who, IMHO, actually gives good advice.
posted by brianogilvie at 7:02 PM on November 20, 2013 [2 favorites]
Your husband may be embarrassed by making less than you; I've talked with a number of men who find that uncomfortable, including professionals who both make more than $100,000 a year. But his embarrassment doesn't excuse him from his responsibility to his family. I think you should both list your income, your debts, your household expenses, and your financial aspirations (college fund, rainy day savings, vacations, neat tech stuff you want), and put them all on the table (maybe literally, if he won't open spreadsheets). Then see how the pieces fit together. Your contributions don't have to be equal in a strict financial sense, but they should be equal in the sense that you are both working for your family's happiness and success, and both willing to make compromises to attain that goal.
If he's not willing to do that, then counseling - couples or individual - would be my next suggestion. Though you might also send your question to Carolyn Hax, at the Washington Post, who is the only advice columnist I know who, IMHO, actually gives good advice.
posted by brianogilvie at 7:02 PM on November 20, 2013 [2 favorites]
Honestly, if he is flat out refusing to discuss this with you, after so many attempts on your part to make it easier for you, I think I would tell him that if he's not willing to discuss with you how the two of you are going to work together to keep your child warm this winter, you're going to visit an attorney to discuss separation so that you can force him to pay his fair share of expenses in child support. Divorce may actually be cheaper for you, since you're already paying nearly all of the household expenses, plus his car payment and insurance. Your husband is willing, for whatever reason, to let you tear your hair out and let your child risk going without heat. That is unacceptable, and it should be a deal-breaker in your marriage. It's time to stand up for your child's right to be supported, both financially and emotionally, by both parents.
If you're not willing to go that far (though I think you should be, because your husband is displaying very little regard for your well-being), I'd announce that he's going to have to get his own health insurance and take over his own car payment. Just announce it, and tell him that if he wants to negotiate about those things, he needs to be willing to have a full and open negotiation with you about all of your household expenses. It's clear that he isn't considering your health (if he's willing to let you take on all the financial stress in your marriage, including a second job that threatens your emotional stability), so why should you pay for his?
Basically, this is an emergency. And I think that separating from your husband should be higher up on the list of possible solutions than you taking a second job to cover for your deadbead husband who can't bring himself to contribute more than a few hundred dollars to the care of your family. He's behaving utterly unreasonably, and you can't have a real relationship with someone who won't communicate with you.
posted by decathecting at 7:16 PM on November 20, 2013 [6 favorites]
If you're not willing to go that far (though I think you should be, because your husband is displaying very little regard for your well-being), I'd announce that he's going to have to get his own health insurance and take over his own car payment. Just announce it, and tell him that if he wants to negotiate about those things, he needs to be willing to have a full and open negotiation with you about all of your household expenses. It's clear that he isn't considering your health (if he's willing to let you take on all the financial stress in your marriage, including a second job that threatens your emotional stability), so why should you pay for his?
Basically, this is an emergency. And I think that separating from your husband should be higher up on the list of possible solutions than you taking a second job to cover for your deadbead husband who can't bring himself to contribute more than a few hundred dollars to the care of your family. He's behaving utterly unreasonably, and you can't have a real relationship with someone who won't communicate with you.
posted by decathecting at 7:16 PM on November 20, 2013 [6 favorites]
And I think that separating from your husband should be higher up on the list of possible solutions
Your husband pays 35% of his salary to bills vs. Your 75%. It would be both silly and irresponsible to address the 40% defecit by way of divorce or separation - effective communication through a counselor would be a minimal next step. Therapy has not been exhausted yet.
posted by Kruger5 at 7:54 PM on November 20, 2013 [2 favorites]
Your husband pays 35% of his salary to bills vs. Your 75%. It would be both silly and irresponsible to address the 40% defecit by way of divorce or separation - effective communication through a counselor would be a minimal next step. Therapy has not been exhausted yet.
posted by Kruger5 at 7:54 PM on November 20, 2013 [2 favorites]
It would be both silly and irresponsible to address the 40% defecit by way of divorce or separation
The deficit I'm concerned about is not the difference between the percentages of their respective salaries they're spending on bills. (Though I'll also point out that she's spending nearly four times as much as he is, and that it sounds as though he has thousands of dollars more disposable income than she does after she pays their joint expenses for him. You can make the severity of the deficit sound better or worse depending on how you express it mathematically, and I don't think that percentage of each person's income spent for joint expenses is necessarily the most fair method, especially when there's a child involved.) No, the deficit I'm concerned about is the deficit between one spouse in tears over the budget and the other refusing to participate in any way in dealing with that issue, and in fact suggesting that the spouse who is already in tears over being unable to pay for heat take on more financial burdens. And that's a deficit that is absolutely worth breaking up the marriage over if it can't be resolved before it causes permanent financial or emotional damage.
By all means, go to counseling if you think it will allow you to work this out. But the very first item on the agenda at the very first counseling session needs to be, "how to get my spouse to give a shit that I'm literally bursting into tears in panic over how to pay for heat to keep our child warm this winter." And he needs to agree that there is an emergency going on, and he needs to get on board with working with you as a team to resolve the emergency. Because if your partner refuses to help you when you are "drowning," what good does it do you to have a partner at all?
posted by decathecting at 8:44 PM on November 20, 2013 [18 favorites]
The deficit I'm concerned about is not the difference between the percentages of their respective salaries they're spending on bills. (Though I'll also point out that she's spending nearly four times as much as he is, and that it sounds as though he has thousands of dollars more disposable income than she does after she pays their joint expenses for him. You can make the severity of the deficit sound better or worse depending on how you express it mathematically, and I don't think that percentage of each person's income spent for joint expenses is necessarily the most fair method, especially when there's a child involved.) No, the deficit I'm concerned about is the deficit between one spouse in tears over the budget and the other refusing to participate in any way in dealing with that issue, and in fact suggesting that the spouse who is already in tears over being unable to pay for heat take on more financial burdens. And that's a deficit that is absolutely worth breaking up the marriage over if it can't be resolved before it causes permanent financial or emotional damage.
By all means, go to counseling if you think it will allow you to work this out. But the very first item on the agenda at the very first counseling session needs to be, "how to get my spouse to give a shit that I'm literally bursting into tears in panic over how to pay for heat to keep our child warm this winter." And he needs to agree that there is an emergency going on, and he needs to get on board with working with you as a team to resolve the emergency. Because if your partner refuses to help you when you are "drowning," what good does it do you to have a partner at all?
posted by decathecting at 8:44 PM on November 20, 2013 [18 favorites]
Wow, I don't know how you came up with that arrangement originally but it seems pretty grossly inequitable. As my therapist once said you me, regarding some aspects of my marriage that I found increasingly bothersome, "You need to renegotiate your contract."
Obviously you're not going to split things 50/50 when you make twice his salary. But at the very least you should be splitting expenses so that both of you end up with the same amount of discretionary spending money, to the degree that there is any.
Also, it sounds like the two of you could stand to have more of a team mentality on mutual expenses. I mean it's fine to have separate accounts, of course. But when you categorize your student loans, for example, as "your responsibility"... um. Wasn't it that education that enabled you to have the salary you've now achieved? If he's benefiting from that (and quite disproportionately too as things are currently arranged), then the investment you made to get there should go under joint expenses, it shouldn't be counted as a personal liability of yours.
One more thing. I think it might be okay sometimes for one partner to maintain some amount of undisclosed debt, but only if that partner FIRST is truly pulling his weight on shared expenses. It's not fair at all for a person to lean on his or her spouse as heavily as your husband is leaning on you and then to refuse to tell you what he's putting on the credit card or how high the balance is. The level of trust he's requiring from you on top of your supporting him financially isn't fair, and you're right it's going to be corrosive to the relationship.
There could be some other piece of this story that would change things some, put your husband in a better light--like if he does ALL the cooking and cleaning, for example, or makes some other very valuable non-monetary contribution. if that's not the case though, I'd say he's taking you for a ride. And even if there are factors in his favor, I still think it's wrong and undermining for him to withhold basic information from you like the total amount of debt he's carrying.
I'm honestly not sure you need "strategies" beyond this one: give him an ultimatum. Tell him he has to start opening up, or you are going to a counsellor for advice on whether a relationship like this is sustainable. If he's not responsive to that, you have a very serious problem. Or rather, he does... a problem he's willing to jeopardize your relationship over, rather than reveal. At least then you'll know what the stakes are.
Good luck.
posted by torticat at 10:13 PM on November 20, 2013 [1 favorite]
Obviously you're not going to split things 50/50 when you make twice his salary. But at the very least you should be splitting expenses so that both of you end up with the same amount of discretionary spending money, to the degree that there is any.
Also, it sounds like the two of you could stand to have more of a team mentality on mutual expenses. I mean it's fine to have separate accounts, of course. But when you categorize your student loans, for example, as "your responsibility"... um. Wasn't it that education that enabled you to have the salary you've now achieved? If he's benefiting from that (and quite disproportionately too as things are currently arranged), then the investment you made to get there should go under joint expenses, it shouldn't be counted as a personal liability of yours.
One more thing. I think it might be okay sometimes for one partner to maintain some amount of undisclosed debt, but only if that partner FIRST is truly pulling his weight on shared expenses. It's not fair at all for a person to lean on his or her spouse as heavily as your husband is leaning on you and then to refuse to tell you what he's putting on the credit card or how high the balance is. The level of trust he's requiring from you on top of your supporting him financially isn't fair, and you're right it's going to be corrosive to the relationship.
There could be some other piece of this story that would change things some, put your husband in a better light--like if he does ALL the cooking and cleaning, for example, or makes some other very valuable non-monetary contribution. if that's not the case though, I'd say he's taking you for a ride. And even if there are factors in his favor, I still think it's wrong and undermining for him to withhold basic information from you like the total amount of debt he's carrying.
I'm honestly not sure you need "strategies" beyond this one: give him an ultimatum. Tell him he has to start opening up, or you are going to a counsellor for advice on whether a relationship like this is sustainable. If he's not responsive to that, you have a very serious problem. Or rather, he does... a problem he's willing to jeopardize your relationship over, rather than reveal. At least then you'll know what the stakes are.
Good luck.
posted by torticat at 10:13 PM on November 20, 2013 [1 favorite]
Are there any signs that he is having an affair or seeing a sex worker? Because surprising, illogical behaviour such as this is a classic red flag. If you pry he may explode, have somewhere safe for you and your child to go before you press the conversation too hard.
posted by Mistress at 1:55 AM on November 21, 2013 [4 favorites]
posted by Mistress at 1:55 AM on November 21, 2013 [4 favorites]
Honestly, reading this, my first thought was that your husband has a boatload of credit card debt and doesn't want you to know about it. I've had friends who've been in that situation, and...well, and this is what it looked like.
Seconded. My stepfather has many times amassed mountains of credit card debt and my mother has found out about it in similar scenarios such as "Why do we not have money for [x]? I thought we budgeted for this." or even better, when the credit card companies start calling the house.
This has happened more than once and the most recent incident was a *mere* $8,000. It's been much more than that in the past. If you've honestly never completely combined your finances, I shudder to think how much debt he could be hiding. You need to get everything on the table. EVERYTHING.
posted by sonika at 6:22 AM on November 21, 2013 [2 favorites]
Seconded. My stepfather has many times amassed mountains of credit card debt and my mother has found out about it in similar scenarios such as "Why do we not have money for [x]? I thought we budgeted for this." or even better, when the credit card companies start calling the house.
This has happened more than once and the most recent incident was a *mere* $8,000. It's been much more than that in the past. If you've honestly never completely combined your finances, I shudder to think how much debt he could be hiding. You need to get everything on the table. EVERYTHING.
posted by sonika at 6:22 AM on November 21, 2013 [2 favorites]
You are in deep trouble.
Yes, this is a communication issue, and it's at the heart of your marriage. Not discussing money isn't an option. Money is how we negotiate our way in the world and you are a legal entity where you are equally responsible for your debts, assets and cash flow.
As it stands right now, you can't afford your house. I'd start with that as an opening to a conversation about money.
Schedule a time to discuss the budget. "Clyde, as you know somehow, even with my raise, we're struggling more than ever. We need to brainstorm ways to get out ahead. I'd like to sit down at 3PM on Saturday with our bank accounts, credit cards and household bills so we can figure out what to do. I'm thinking very seriously that we should sell the house and move into an apartment because between the mortgage and oil bill, we're in over our heads. We need a new strategy for managing our joint finances, because right now, this isn't working. I'll bring my pay stubs, the bills and my bank statements. I'd like you to bring your pay stubs, your bills, your bank statements and your retirement account statement. I don't currently understand what's on your side of the ledger and I need to. If you have anything to tell me about your finances, Saturday will be the date. Even if it's terrible, I'll still love you and we can work through it."
Give him time to marinate in your concerns and time to get his financial shit together.
If he is unwilling to do this, then you'll need to consider divorce. Why am I so drastic? Because there is something more than discomfort at work if your financial partner in life doesn't want you to know what you have a right to know. There are bodies buried somewhere and your marriage is not what you think it is.
Yes, money discussions lead to divorce. Not because people are greedy, but because money is the the trail that leads to truth, and sometimes that truth is a mistress, a baby outside of the marriage, a gambling problem, a debt issue or something worse.
I read a lot about married people keeping separate accounts. I think that's weird. A marriage is a financial union as well as an emotional one.
This Saturday is the day. Prepare him, and prepare yourself.
Here's another thought. Are you sure he's still employed where he says he is?
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 6:43 AM on November 21, 2013 [7 favorites]
Yes, this is a communication issue, and it's at the heart of your marriage. Not discussing money isn't an option. Money is how we negotiate our way in the world and you are a legal entity where you are equally responsible for your debts, assets and cash flow.
As it stands right now, you can't afford your house. I'd start with that as an opening to a conversation about money.
Schedule a time to discuss the budget. "Clyde, as you know somehow, even with my raise, we're struggling more than ever. We need to brainstorm ways to get out ahead. I'd like to sit down at 3PM on Saturday with our bank accounts, credit cards and household bills so we can figure out what to do. I'm thinking very seriously that we should sell the house and move into an apartment because between the mortgage and oil bill, we're in over our heads. We need a new strategy for managing our joint finances, because right now, this isn't working. I'll bring my pay stubs, the bills and my bank statements. I'd like you to bring your pay stubs, your bills, your bank statements and your retirement account statement. I don't currently understand what's on your side of the ledger and I need to. If you have anything to tell me about your finances, Saturday will be the date. Even if it's terrible, I'll still love you and we can work through it."
Give him time to marinate in your concerns and time to get his financial shit together.
If he is unwilling to do this, then you'll need to consider divorce. Why am I so drastic? Because there is something more than discomfort at work if your financial partner in life doesn't want you to know what you have a right to know. There are bodies buried somewhere and your marriage is not what you think it is.
Yes, money discussions lead to divorce. Not because people are greedy, but because money is the the trail that leads to truth, and sometimes that truth is a mistress, a baby outside of the marriage, a gambling problem, a debt issue or something worse.
I read a lot about married people keeping separate accounts. I think that's weird. A marriage is a financial union as well as an emotional one.
This Saturday is the day. Prepare him, and prepare yourself.
Here's another thought. Are you sure he's still employed where he says he is?
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 6:43 AM on November 21, 2013 [7 favorites]
Initiating divorce would kill any chances of immediate financial improvement for you. Consider the fact you may have to pay him alimony given how much more you make than him. That would be crippling.
posted by Kruger5 at 7:05 AM on November 21, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by Kruger5 at 7:05 AM on November 21, 2013 [1 favorite]
Presenting the alternative to Kruger5's comment about alimony: in many states, alimony is not awarded in marriages that lasted less than ten years. If you're going to get divorced, doing so now might be better than waiting a couple years and doing it later.
Anyhow, seriously, you're already paying almost all the bills. He pays $350 a month, plus $220 in "random joint expenses". If you divorce him, you get to stop paying his car payment and health insurance, plus the random joint expenses will be less. Those things, right there, probably total more than what he's paying for right now.
I hope for your sake that it doesn't come to divorce, but if it does, I can't see how it could possibly be for you financially than the alternative.
posted by MeghanC at 8:35 AM on November 21, 2013
Anyhow, seriously, you're already paying almost all the bills. He pays $350 a month, plus $220 in "random joint expenses". If you divorce him, you get to stop paying his car payment and health insurance, plus the random joint expenses will be less. Those things, right there, probably total more than what he's paying for right now.
I hope for your sake that it doesn't come to divorce, but if it does, I can't see how it could possibly be for you financially than the alternative.
posted by MeghanC at 8:35 AM on November 21, 2013
Anon, I would really love to know how you are processing some of these suggestions. If you contact the mods they will post your update for you.
Personally, I need to decompress a little, because I am dealing with a husband who will tell me every mundane thing on earth for hours at a time and then clam up immediately when I ask him how much his paycheck was and what plans he has for spending, bills, etc. In a lot of ways it IS like having a child -- he will spend $400 in two days and then hide the electric bill because he "can't deal with that." His attitude and defensiveness about talking about money is the reason why we are "spiritually married" and not "legally married", and the reason why I am seriously re-evaluating our plan to start trying for a baby. I am sad about that, because I am 34 and I don't want to start over again with someone else. I can be as frugal as anybody, I can live without heat and plug in three space heaters - but the idea of living with that kind of stress indefinitely? With a child in tow? And you're diligently going to work and bring home $45K??
I read every answer in this thread three times. I thank you so much for posting the question. Trying to have a life and a home and a family with someone who ignores a glaring red light that is blinding you is not impossible, necessarily - it's just that it's so much stress that no one should have to live with. Do you get any sleep? Do you wake up with that sick feeling in the pit of your stomach in the morning?
And this:
Here's another thought. Are you sure he's still employed where he says he is?
is where my mind goes, before mistress. He's probably hiding something, and more than likely is terrified that you will leave if you find out what it is. That still doesn't make it OK for him to treat you and your child this way. I love my husband to death, but everyone has their own threshold for what they are willing to put up with, and you are not to blame if you say "I am done dealing with this." Sounds like you've reached your bullshit limit.
posted by polly_dactyl at 8:41 AM on November 21, 2013 [4 favorites]
Personally, I need to decompress a little, because I am dealing with a husband who will tell me every mundane thing on earth for hours at a time and then clam up immediately when I ask him how much his paycheck was and what plans he has for spending, bills, etc. In a lot of ways it IS like having a child -- he will spend $400 in two days and then hide the electric bill because he "can't deal with that." His attitude and defensiveness about talking about money is the reason why we are "spiritually married" and not "legally married", and the reason why I am seriously re-evaluating our plan to start trying for a baby. I am sad about that, because I am 34 and I don't want to start over again with someone else. I can be as frugal as anybody, I can live without heat and plug in three space heaters - but the idea of living with that kind of stress indefinitely? With a child in tow? And you're diligently going to work and bring home $45K??
I read every answer in this thread three times. I thank you so much for posting the question. Trying to have a life and a home and a family with someone who ignores a glaring red light that is blinding you is not impossible, necessarily - it's just that it's so much stress that no one should have to live with. Do you get any sleep? Do you wake up with that sick feeling in the pit of your stomach in the morning?
And this:
Here's another thought. Are you sure he's still employed where he says he is?
is where my mind goes, before mistress. He's probably hiding something, and more than likely is terrified that you will leave if you find out what it is. That still doesn't make it OK for him to treat you and your child this way. I love my husband to death, but everyone has their own threshold for what they are willing to put up with, and you are not to blame if you say "I am done dealing with this." Sounds like you've reached your bullshit limit.
posted by polly_dactyl at 8:41 AM on November 21, 2013 [4 favorites]
Oh, and my husband makes half what his ex-wife makes. He still pays child support, and it is a not-insignificant portion of his income. (I know he's not a total deadbeat because he goes crazy if he is even one day late getting $$ to her.)
posted by polly_dactyl at 8:44 AM on November 21, 2013
posted by polly_dactyl at 8:44 AM on November 21, 2013
Are you sure he only makes $21k a year? He's been with his company for 25 years and only makes $10.09 an hour, is that for real? Dude's hiding something from you. Cut cable and make him pay for his own car payments, at least. I don't know how people deal with this kind of nonsense.
posted by jabes at 11:40 AM on November 21, 2013 [8 favorites]
posted by jabes at 11:40 AM on November 21, 2013 [8 favorites]
One thing you really don't touch on in your question - which is quite critical - is why he is so reluctant to talk about finances. Do you have any idea why that might be? It would help shape a course of action.
I'm worried about you, dude. 60k for a three person household is hardly rolling in it, but you really should be in tight-but-comfortable territory here. I know you said no budgeting suggestions, but really a financial advisor would be a critical step if I were you, and husband would be along for the ride or I would be thinking of quitting.
Sad to say, I find myself agreeing with the call: If he's only spending about $570 per month of his paycheque on family bills, then it sounds to me like he is stonewalling because he's trying to cover up the fact that he is spending a LOT of money on other stuff that he doesn't want you to know about.
posted by smoke at 8:13 PM on November 21, 2013 [3 favorites]
I'm worried about you, dude. 60k for a three person household is hardly rolling in it, but you really should be in tight-but-comfortable territory here. I know you said no budgeting suggestions, but really a financial advisor would be a critical step if I were you, and husband would be along for the ride or I would be thinking of quitting.
Sad to say, I find myself agreeing with the call: If he's only spending about $570 per month of his paycheque on family bills, then it sounds to me like he is stonewalling because he's trying to cover up the fact that he is spending a LOT of money on other stuff that he doesn't want you to know about.
posted by smoke at 8:13 PM on November 21, 2013 [3 favorites]
OP: I want to help you with Christmas gifts. Please MeMail me. (I am a sock puppet.)
posted by anomalous at 3:19 AM on November 22, 2013 [8 favorites]
posted by anomalous at 3:19 AM on November 22, 2013 [8 favorites]
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