Response to (foreign) friends posting antisemitic conspiracy theories?
November 19, 2013 9:13 PM Subscribe
I'm finding several Chilean friends circulating an antisemitic conspiracy-theory sketchy blog "news" item on Facebook. And I realized they were taking this quite seriously. I'm offended as a Jew and hurt as a friend, but I'm not sure how/ or whether it's my place to respond.
I spent a year as a foreign university student in Chile in 2007-2008 and made some great Chilean friends while I was there. Since then, I've kept in touch with them casually through facebook and occasional skype calls, but for the most part we've gone separate ways with our lives. I'm a non-observant Jew, but it was during that year that I both encountered anti-semitism directly for the first time among my peers and, later in the year, felt warm and welcomed small Jewish community I found there.
Having grown up in a middle-class, heavily Jewish neighborhood in the US, it was eye-opening to be in a country with one of the highest inequality indexes where Jews were disproportionately represented in the most powerful ranks of society, but I was still offended when friends of friends would start sparring sessions about Israel in casual company. At least they weren't my friends, I thought, but now I'm finding more of my friends from that period circulating an upsetting antisemitic conspiracy article. I thought for sure it was a joke, but these are friends I respect and they all seem to be taking the message seriously. I even asked a Chilean friend living here in New York what he made of it, and he didn't think it was more than ultra-left wing activist stuff that people don't really take seriously.
But in fact, Chile has had some rather high-profile run-ins with anti-semitism in the public spotlight as of late, with one prominent politician spreading Nazi propaganda and vehement public reaction after a young Israeli Jew was charged with starting a fire that destroyed acres of prime Patagonian parkland. In FACT, that played into a larger conspiracy theory which was at the heart of the upsetting article I came across, that Israelis have been plotting after Patagonia for a while now (something not so hard for the average person to believe in a country which has had wide swaths of land bought by foreign individuals). Should I leave this all to cultural relativism and ignore my gut reaction? Would responding to the post alert my friends to the hurt they most likely never intended? Is it my duty to respond, especially on behalf of the Jews I know who still live there?
Without further ado, the article that sparked this whole thing: http://eladiofernandez.wordpress.com/2013/11/15/la-comunidad-judia-internacional-ha-comprado-la-patagonia-argentina-y-chilena-para-construir-un-segundo-israel-2/
I spent a year as a foreign university student in Chile in 2007-2008 and made some great Chilean friends while I was there. Since then, I've kept in touch with them casually through facebook and occasional skype calls, but for the most part we've gone separate ways with our lives. I'm a non-observant Jew, but it was during that year that I both encountered anti-semitism directly for the first time among my peers and, later in the year, felt warm and welcomed small Jewish community I found there.
Having grown up in a middle-class, heavily Jewish neighborhood in the US, it was eye-opening to be in a country with one of the highest inequality indexes where Jews were disproportionately represented in the most powerful ranks of society, but I was still offended when friends of friends would start sparring sessions about Israel in casual company. At least they weren't my friends, I thought, but now I'm finding more of my friends from that period circulating an upsetting antisemitic conspiracy article. I thought for sure it was a joke, but these are friends I respect and they all seem to be taking the message seriously. I even asked a Chilean friend living here in New York what he made of it, and he didn't think it was more than ultra-left wing activist stuff that people don't really take seriously.
But in fact, Chile has had some rather high-profile run-ins with anti-semitism in the public spotlight as of late, with one prominent politician spreading Nazi propaganda and vehement public reaction after a young Israeli Jew was charged with starting a fire that destroyed acres of prime Patagonian parkland. In FACT, that played into a larger conspiracy theory which was at the heart of the upsetting article I came across, that Israelis have been plotting after Patagonia for a while now (something not so hard for the average person to believe in a country which has had wide swaths of land bought by foreign individuals). Should I leave this all to cultural relativism and ignore my gut reaction? Would responding to the post alert my friends to the hurt they most likely never intended? Is it my duty to respond, especially on behalf of the Jews I know who still live there?
Without further ado, the article that sparked this whole thing: http://eladiofernandez.wordpress.com/2013/11/15/la-comunidad-judia-internacional-ha-comprado-la-patagonia-argentina-y-chilena-para-construir-un-segundo-israel-2/
Is it maybe related to this?
Andinia Planposted by XMLicious at 9:40 PM on November 19, 2013
Best answer: There's at least two reasons you should respond:
1. The act of responding will humanize Jews to your friends. Most likely, after you left their sight, they forgot that you were a Jew. Whether or not they give up the conspiracy theory, they will be forced to consider that Jews are people, people they like, even, rather than mysterious monsters. This will buy every other minority member they interact with in the future a little bit more consideration.
2. You cannot be friends in a meaningful way with people that think people that share your background are insidious nation-ruiners. Better to find out now where you stand.
You don't have to argue them into the ground. You can just point out that you don't like how it dehumanizes Jews by ascribing to them cartoonishly evil motives and bee-like hive-mindedness. You can say there's no evidence for any of what's in that blog post and that there are a million other unsubstantiated theories, some of them unflattering to South Americans.
If they're not willing to acknowledge that right away, unsubscribe and move on. Maybe they'll come around someday, and you did your part.
posted by ignignokt at 9:40 PM on November 19, 2013 [13 favorites]
1. The act of responding will humanize Jews to your friends. Most likely, after you left their sight, they forgot that you were a Jew. Whether or not they give up the conspiracy theory, they will be forced to consider that Jews are people, people they like, even, rather than mysterious monsters. This will buy every other minority member they interact with in the future a little bit more consideration.
2. You cannot be friends in a meaningful way with people that think people that share your background are insidious nation-ruiners. Better to find out now where you stand.
You don't have to argue them into the ground. You can just point out that you don't like how it dehumanizes Jews by ascribing to them cartoonishly evil motives and bee-like hive-mindedness. You can say there's no evidence for any of what's in that blog post and that there are a million other unsubstantiated theories, some of them unflattering to South Americans.
If they're not willing to acknowledge that right away, unsubscribe and move on. Maybe they'll come around someday, and you did your part.
posted by ignignokt at 9:40 PM on November 19, 2013 [13 favorites]
Here's a private message that you could send:
"Hey, what's with that blog you posted? I thought it was offensive because as you may or may not know, I have Jewish heritage. Can you give me some context?"
posted by oceanjesse at 9:42 PM on November 19, 2013 [2 favorites]
"Hey, what's with that blog you posted? I thought it was offensive because as you may or may not know, I have Jewish heritage. Can you give me some context?"
posted by oceanjesse at 9:42 PM on November 19, 2013 [2 favorites]
Is there a Spanish-language Snopes that you can link to so as to disprove without making it personal? If not, I would leave a comment on each wall saying that it isn't true, and that scapegoating a minority is a hateful form of protest. I would accompany this with a personal (private) message telling your friends that you are offended by the post, and why. And what consequences you personally will take if they leave the post up (unfriending, thinking less of them, whatever is truthful to you and your feelings).
Hopefully they will remove the post. But if they don't, you have publicly stood up to the lies in a calm, measured way. After that, try not to read comments on the post responding to your comment, and don't get involved with anyone who tries to argue with you.
Also I don't think linking to the offensive material for whatever elucidation purposes you have in mind is any better than linking for anti semitic reasons and hope you or the mods remove it - why should this crackpot benefit from Ask's popularity to reach a wider audience?
posted by Mchelly at 10:19 PM on November 19, 2013
Hopefully they will remove the post. But if they don't, you have publicly stood up to the lies in a calm, measured way. After that, try not to read comments on the post responding to your comment, and don't get involved with anyone who tries to argue with you.
Also I don't think linking to the offensive material for whatever elucidation purposes you have in mind is any better than linking for anti semitic reasons and hope you or the mods remove it - why should this crackpot benefit from Ask's popularity to reach a wider audience?
posted by Mchelly at 10:19 PM on November 19, 2013
You might be doing them a favor by pointing out that this is nonsense. If you correct them in a friendly way, they may be willing to drop the whole thing and maybe even apologize for posting this stuff, the way that people do when they find out that a story they're spreading was debunked on Snopes. I realize this is an optimistic scenario, but it might be worth giving it a try. It may never have occurred to your friends to question this particular iteration of the classic "Jews are secretly taking over our country" conspiracy theory, or its parent myth about the powerful Jews that manipulate world and national affairs. Please don't stay silent; this stuff is dangerous. If they dig in and affirm their antisemitism, as ignignokt points out, you will at least know where you stand.
posted by Wordwoman at 10:24 PM on November 19, 2013
posted by Wordwoman at 10:24 PM on November 19, 2013
Given that antisemitism is by its very nature offensive to any thinking person, perhaps you could simply post a reply pointing out that what they posted is both offensive and factually incorrect, without actually raising your own Jewish heritage as an issue?
Having done that, you may well find that others chime in with similar rebuttals.
It seems to me that obnoxious bullshit is best challenged in public. There is no need at all to start an ongoing argument or flame war about it, though - if you must do that, do it in private. In public, plant your seed of doubt and walk away.
This manoeuvre should help make it harder for some arsehole bigot to score easy lazy points with "well of course he would say that".
posted by flabdablet at 10:30 PM on November 19, 2013
Having done that, you may well find that others chime in with similar rebuttals.
It seems to me that obnoxious bullshit is best challenged in public. There is no need at all to start an ongoing argument or flame war about it, though - if you must do that, do it in private. In public, plant your seed of doubt and walk away.
This manoeuvre should help make it harder for some arsehole bigot to score easy lazy points with "well of course he would say that".
posted by flabdablet at 10:30 PM on November 19, 2013
I had a similar conversation about a Jewish conspiracy with someone in Nicaragua, and there was so much wrong in their worldview that lead them to believe what they said that I didn't even know where to start. It's important to know that it's not the conspiracy theory that convinced them that Jews were bad, but their belief that Jews are bad that convinced them of the conspiracy theory. Jews are a convenient scapegoat in Latin America (and especially for Latin American politicians) because so few people interact with them directly.
I'm not Jewish, so I'm not really comfortable telling you how to behave wrt to this stuff, but my personal feeling is that you should do what you can to make it known that you're Jewish and that you're available to answer questions and so on, so that you're not seen as an adversary, but as a resource. And try to have a sense of humor about it, if you can.
posted by empath at 12:22 AM on November 20, 2013 [5 favorites]
I'm not Jewish, so I'm not really comfortable telling you how to behave wrt to this stuff, but my personal feeling is that you should do what you can to make it known that you're Jewish and that you're available to answer questions and so on, so that you're not seen as an adversary, but as a resource. And try to have a sense of humor about it, if you can.
posted by empath at 12:22 AM on November 20, 2013 [5 favorites]
I think that you do have to say something; you don't want them to think that everybody believes the bigoted worldview they're espousing, and you want other people to feel comfortable publicly questioning that worldview, too.
As to what to say -- when I'm in a situation like that, I usually just explicitly say that I think [the joke, the term, the stereotype, the conspiracy theory, whatever] is bigoted. Sometimes the other person will ask why I think so, and I'll tell them, and we'll have a meaningful discussion, and sometimes the other person will get defensive, and then I just try to disengage. I don't pull the person aside to call him out, though, because the point of calling him out is at least partially to signal to *everyone* (not just the person spouting off bigoted stuff) that this is shameful behavior, and also because usually the person spouting off bigoted stuff is so ready to get defensive and nasty that pulling him aside doesn't do much to stop that from happening. So in this case, I would probably just post under the link/in that discussion that I think this conspiracy theory is bigoted, and that the tactic being used is scapegoating. I'd maybe add that that's exactly the tactic that Hitler used in order to cement his dictatorship, and if they're seeing that tactic being used in their country, they *should* have their political guard up, because tyranny and scapegoating often go hand-in-hand (for less incendiary examples, see the history of virtually every country, including the US). Hopefully this will be a more helpful answer to how to confront them, though: here's a guide to speaking up when confronted with everyday bigotry, from the Southern Poverty Law Center.
As for the question of "outing" yourself: I don't think you have a duty to tell them that you're Jewish. If you want to tell them that you are, and you want to enter a discussion with them about how this anti-Semitism looks/feels to you as a Jew, then of course you should go ahead. But I think if you do choose to tell them that you're Jewish, then be prepared for them to cast you in the role of "Representative of the Jews" in their discussion. People will then probably try to interrogate and disparage you within the discussion thread. They might also try to turn the conversation into one about hurt feelings, whether regarding the hurt feelings of "The Jews" or your hurt feelings. I would personally try to avoid going down the "wah-wah, cry baby, cry" rabbit hole, because I think it's just a deflection from the real problem with the worldview that they're suddenly buying into -- the problem *isn't* that it's "hurtful" to Jews, the problem is that they're buying into ignorant, bigoted bullshit (and they aren't ignorant, bigoted people, so what gives?!).
posted by rue72 at 1:27 AM on November 20, 2013 [2 favorites]
As to what to say -- when I'm in a situation like that, I usually just explicitly say that I think [the joke, the term, the stereotype, the conspiracy theory, whatever] is bigoted. Sometimes the other person will ask why I think so, and I'll tell them, and we'll have a meaningful discussion, and sometimes the other person will get defensive, and then I just try to disengage. I don't pull the person aside to call him out, though, because the point of calling him out is at least partially to signal to *everyone* (not just the person spouting off bigoted stuff) that this is shameful behavior, and also because usually the person spouting off bigoted stuff is so ready to get defensive and nasty that pulling him aside doesn't do much to stop that from happening. So in this case, I would probably just post under the link/in that discussion that I think this conspiracy theory is bigoted, and that the tactic being used is scapegoating. I'd maybe add that that's exactly the tactic that Hitler used in order to cement his dictatorship, and if they're seeing that tactic being used in their country, they *should* have their political guard up, because tyranny and scapegoating often go hand-in-hand (for less incendiary examples, see the history of virtually every country, including the US). Hopefully this will be a more helpful answer to how to confront them, though: here's a guide to speaking up when confronted with everyday bigotry, from the Southern Poverty Law Center.
As for the question of "outing" yourself: I don't think you have a duty to tell them that you're Jewish. If you want to tell them that you are, and you want to enter a discussion with them about how this anti-Semitism looks/feels to you as a Jew, then of course you should go ahead. But I think if you do choose to tell them that you're Jewish, then be prepared for them to cast you in the role of "Representative of the Jews" in their discussion. People will then probably try to interrogate and disparage you within the discussion thread. They might also try to turn the conversation into one about hurt feelings, whether regarding the hurt feelings of "The Jews" or your hurt feelings. I would personally try to avoid going down the "wah-wah, cry baby, cry" rabbit hole, because I think it's just a deflection from the real problem with the worldview that they're suddenly buying into -- the problem *isn't* that it's "hurtful" to Jews, the problem is that they're buying into ignorant, bigoted bullshit (and they aren't ignorant, bigoted people, so what gives?!).
posted by rue72 at 1:27 AM on November 20, 2013 [2 favorites]
There are two ways I know of in which it's sometimes possible to successfully address stuff like this without getting into a shitty fight.
One is to post a snappy comeback which is extremely funny. If you are lucky, people will favourite it purely for its humour value even if they do not agree with you, which is a sneaky way to bolster your point even when you are the only person making it. Because you are apparently not presenting a serious argument, people will usually avoid arguing with you. This also does an end run around the splendid "clearly you don't have a sense of humour" defense that sexist/racist/asshole people like so much.
The other way only works with closeish friends, and that involves a private message conveying that this stuff is really personally upsetting to you and you are sad that they would post such things when they know you, especially since you normally respect their judgement so much and etc etc.
posted by emilyw at 2:31 AM on November 20, 2013 [1 favorite]
One is to post a snappy comeback which is extremely funny. If you are lucky, people will favourite it purely for its humour value even if they do not agree with you, which is a sneaky way to bolster your point even when you are the only person making it. Because you are apparently not presenting a serious argument, people will usually avoid arguing with you. This also does an end run around the splendid "clearly you don't have a sense of humour" defense that sexist/racist/asshole people like so much.
The other way only works with closeish friends, and that involves a private message conveying that this stuff is really personally upsetting to you and you are sad that they would post such things when they know you, especially since you normally respect their judgement so much and etc etc.
posted by emilyw at 2:31 AM on November 20, 2013 [1 favorite]
It is anti-Semitic, of course, but if you're going to deal with it you need to unpick more than a bit of Jew bashing.
For much of the world, American influence and Zionist influence are conflated. This is both real in some arenas (US influence on Israeli foreign policy and vice versa) and wholly imagined in others. So what reads as pure anti-semitism is often also anti-Americanism and anti-globalism rolled into one, with the Jews as a convenient scapegoat.
In short, if someone is reposting this sort of stuff, they've often got no idea who Jews are other than "the other among us". They're a ridiculous cipher for decisions they don't understand and a home for theories that can't be parked against an actual defined group.
How you react to this is up to you. But part of the mindset includes a "but you would say that" defensive mentality. I'd be more inclined to gently mock: "Hi there, friendly Jew here. This is an interesting story but it's not true. One Israel is problematic enough."
posted by MuffinMan at 3:14 AM on November 20, 2013 [3 favorites]
For much of the world, American influence and Zionist influence are conflated. This is both real in some arenas (US influence on Israeli foreign policy and vice versa) and wholly imagined in others. So what reads as pure anti-semitism is often also anti-Americanism and anti-globalism rolled into one, with the Jews as a convenient scapegoat.
In short, if someone is reposting this sort of stuff, they've often got no idea who Jews are other than "the other among us". They're a ridiculous cipher for decisions they don't understand and a home for theories that can't be parked against an actual defined group.
How you react to this is up to you. But part of the mindset includes a "but you would say that" defensive mentality. I'd be more inclined to gently mock: "Hi there, friendly Jew here. This is an interesting story but it's not true. One Israel is problematic enough."
posted by MuffinMan at 3:14 AM on November 20, 2013 [3 favorites]
Best answer: I'd be more inclined to gently mock: "Hi there, friendly Jew here. This is an interesting story but it's not true. One Israel is problematic enough."
No. You do not need to make a "Jews, amirite?" joke to prove you're one of the good Jews. Your friends' beliefs are not amusing; in fact beliefs like this get people killed, and I don't think anyone would suggest self-mocking humor as a means of fighting any other form of prejudice. (What would you advise a black friend to say if someone was demonizing black people? What would you say if someone was demonizing black people? My background is similar to yours, OP, and so I think I can guess you would not think that called for jokes.)
I spent a whole lot of time in my 20s trying to fight anti-Semites online, and to educate Internet "friends" like your friends who may be anti-Semites or may be just uninformed and unused to questioning what they read/hear in the media. I wish I could say otherwise, but in my experience it never worked. It just made me even more angry. Eventually I started to believe that self-preservation was a higher priority than fighting against a rising tide of bigotry and ignorance. The sad fact is, there are far more people in the world who believe the whacky conspiracy theories than who don't. It takes a lot of independent reading and learning to find out the truth, which most people aren't really willing to do. (This is why you get Americans saying stuff like "Get the US Government away from my Medicare!") So, what I would do is unfriend them, block them, or whatever applies. It's an ugly thing that you had to learn this way (or any way) that your friends aren't actually the sort of people you'd want as friends. But it happens. If I was feeling particularly charitable that day, I might send them a message saying something about how I really enjoyed the time I spent with them, and I think they are otherwise good people, so it hurts me that they are perpetuating bigotry and misinformation. I might say that I encourage them to learn more, but I'm not going to lecture them about it.
If you really don't want to block them, though, I'd go with something really simple. "Guys, that's not true, come on, I know you're smarter than that." Or something. Also, if you're not already doing so, start posting occasional things about how bigotry and conspiracies (against Jews or any group) bother you. There's always that tiny chance that seeing something like that, from someone they supposedly like, will make them go "hmmm."
posted by DestinationUnknown at 5:26 AM on November 20, 2013 [10 favorites]
No. You do not need to make a "Jews, amirite?" joke to prove you're one of the good Jews. Your friends' beliefs are not amusing; in fact beliefs like this get people killed, and I don't think anyone would suggest self-mocking humor as a means of fighting any other form of prejudice. (What would you advise a black friend to say if someone was demonizing black people? What would you say if someone was demonizing black people? My background is similar to yours, OP, and so I think I can guess you would not think that called for jokes.)
I spent a whole lot of time in my 20s trying to fight anti-Semites online, and to educate Internet "friends" like your friends who may be anti-Semites or may be just uninformed and unused to questioning what they read/hear in the media. I wish I could say otherwise, but in my experience it never worked. It just made me even more angry. Eventually I started to believe that self-preservation was a higher priority than fighting against a rising tide of bigotry and ignorance. The sad fact is, there are far more people in the world who believe the whacky conspiracy theories than who don't. It takes a lot of independent reading and learning to find out the truth, which most people aren't really willing to do. (This is why you get Americans saying stuff like "Get the US Government away from my Medicare!") So, what I would do is unfriend them, block them, or whatever applies. It's an ugly thing that you had to learn this way (or any way) that your friends aren't actually the sort of people you'd want as friends. But it happens. If I was feeling particularly charitable that day, I might send them a message saying something about how I really enjoyed the time I spent with them, and I think they are otherwise good people, so it hurts me that they are perpetuating bigotry and misinformation. I might say that I encourage them to learn more, but I'm not going to lecture them about it.
If you really don't want to block them, though, I'd go with something really simple. "Guys, that's not true, come on, I know you're smarter than that." Or something. Also, if you're not already doing so, start posting occasional things about how bigotry and conspiracies (against Jews or any group) bother you. There's always that tiny chance that seeing something like that, from someone they supposedly like, will make them go "hmmm."
posted by DestinationUnknown at 5:26 AM on November 20, 2013 [10 favorites]
I find that gently instructing and reminding is the best way to handle this.
Husbunny's cousin is a born-again doofus with really weird opinions on stuff. Some things are goofy and I let them go, but once he made a really anti-gay comment and I felt the need to step in.
I have another Facebook friend who will occasionally post anti-vaccination crap, and I also gently remind her that it's untrue and dangerous. She may never agree, but at least it doesn't go unchallenged.
I found that approaching this as though he was in the room with me, made it easier. So when you see the article, I'd just comment, "I've been seeing this a lot lately and as a Jew it upsets me to think that this is believed, because it is simply untrue. Even more upsetting, is that people who I call friends are circulating propaganda that is designed to hurt people with the same religious background as I have."
Sometimes being the one to stand up to the lies, starts a snowball effect and more people will also say something.
If they perisist, I'd defriend them.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 6:02 AM on November 20, 2013 [6 favorites]
Husbunny's cousin is a born-again doofus with really weird opinions on stuff. Some things are goofy and I let them go, but once he made a really anti-gay comment and I felt the need to step in.
I have another Facebook friend who will occasionally post anti-vaccination crap, and I also gently remind her that it's untrue and dangerous. She may never agree, but at least it doesn't go unchallenged.
I found that approaching this as though he was in the room with me, made it easier. So when you see the article, I'd just comment, "I've been seeing this a lot lately and as a Jew it upsets me to think that this is believed, because it is simply untrue. Even more upsetting, is that people who I call friends are circulating propaganda that is designed to hurt people with the same religious background as I have."
Sometimes being the one to stand up to the lies, starts a snowball effect and more people will also say something.
If they perisist, I'd defriend them.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 6:02 AM on November 20, 2013 [6 favorites]
I had to deal with this with friends from Malaysia. We had to have a "get real" conversation that went something like this.
Your country is a small place very far away from where most Jews live. I know that your country is super-important to you, but there is no huge globe-spanning conspiracy that has Patagonia as its centerpiece. Plus, if we Jews were busy plotting against every single country in the world that thinks we're trying to control them, we'd have time to do nothing else. There aren't that many of us, we're all busy with jobs and kids and mortgages like everyone else, and "let's conquer Chile" isn't on our list of things to do today. Now calm down and knock it off or else we cannot be friends.
posted by 1adam12 at 6:59 AM on November 20, 2013 [3 favorites]
Your country is a small place very far away from where most Jews live. I know that your country is super-important to you, but there is no huge globe-spanning conspiracy that has Patagonia as its centerpiece. Plus, if we Jews were busy plotting against every single country in the world that thinks we're trying to control them, we'd have time to do nothing else. There aren't that many of us, we're all busy with jobs and kids and mortgages like everyone else, and "let's conquer Chile" isn't on our list of things to do today. Now calm down and knock it off or else we cannot be friends.
posted by 1adam12 at 6:59 AM on November 20, 2013 [3 favorites]
Please consider that in many parts of the world, anti Israel does not = anti Jew. Many make this important distinction, and you should as well when you confront your friends. It will help your approach.
posted by Kruger5 at 7:13 AM on November 20, 2013
posted by Kruger5 at 7:13 AM on November 20, 2013
anti Israel does not = anti Jew
Further to that: many people, myself included, object strongly to past and present Israeli government policy on Palestine but are in no way either anti-Israel or anti-Jewish.
Personally I object every bit as strongly to malicious nonsense being spread by people who should know better.
I think that if you concentrate on the fact that the postings you're objecting to are bigoted whack-job conspiracist bullshit, rather than the anti-Semitism strain of bigotry in particular, you have a better chance of actually changing minds.
Another tack might be to put the bigotry aspect entirely aside, and simply ask what makes all this Jewish Patagonia crap any more credible than the equally lunatic crap in circulation about Nazis in the Antarctic?
You could add a side dish of Ancient Aliens Debunked for good measure (I know two people personally who are substantially less likely to jump on the conspiracy bandwagon of the week after seeing that).
posted by flabdablet at 8:46 AM on November 20, 2013 [1 favorite]
Further to that: many people, myself included, object strongly to past and present Israeli government policy on Palestine but are in no way either anti-Israel or anti-Jewish.
Personally I object every bit as strongly to malicious nonsense being spread by people who should know better.
I think that if you concentrate on the fact that the postings you're objecting to are bigoted whack-job conspiracist bullshit, rather than the anti-Semitism strain of bigotry in particular, you have a better chance of actually changing minds.
Another tack might be to put the bigotry aspect entirely aside, and simply ask what makes all this Jewish Patagonia crap any more credible than the equally lunatic crap in circulation about Nazis in the Antarctic?
You could add a side dish of Ancient Aliens Debunked for good measure (I know two people personally who are substantially less likely to jump on the conspiracy bandwagon of the week after seeing that).
posted by flabdablet at 8:46 AM on November 20, 2013 [1 favorite]
I have had exactly no one thank me for debunking something using Snopes, and no one has apologized for posting something that Snopes says is untrue.
I have also seen either an article or a FB post (or both) that states that Snopes is a commie-liberal-Kenyan-athiest shill for the conspirators and the space people. No I dont have a reference for that.
posted by Billiken at 9:46 AM on November 20, 2013 [1 favorite]
I have also seen either an article or a FB post (or both) that states that Snopes is a commie-liberal-Kenyan-athiest shill for the conspirators and the space people. No I dont have a reference for that.
posted by Billiken at 9:46 AM on November 20, 2013 [1 favorite]
Kruger5, I think that's true when it comes to actual Israeli government policies with respect to things like settlements and foreign policy, but on the "they are trying to conquer the ocean and take control of our vital bodily fluids" end of things, it's a distinction without a difference.
posted by 1adam12 at 9:48 AM on November 20, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by 1adam12 at 9:48 AM on November 20, 2013 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Thanks for the all the thoughtful responses.
So this question was actually written by my girlfriend under my username. I made the suggestion to for her to post it last night because she was upset and I did not have any great advice. After reading some of the comments here, this was the response I thought she could give to her friends (although it would have to be translated):
"I understand and respect that you are upset about real problems in Chile, but not only is it irresponsible to fight inequality this way, it is ineffective too. If you start using factually incorrect and historically bigoted points to make your argument, you undermine credibility even if you do have an underlying point.
It can be really dangerous to provide a scapegoat for systemic socioeconomic problems--especially when that scapegoat is based on on ridiculous generalization about an ethnic minorities with secret powers (one that also has a long, traumatic history of being treated this way).
Blaming "the jews" is not only hurtful and ignorant, it is a really bad way to be persuasive. I know it can be nice and comforting to have a simple, singular explanation for the ills of the world, but when has anything ever been simple? Jews are made up of many different people with many different backgrounds. There are left-wing Jews who fight for Palestinian rights and right-wing Jews who believe god promised them Palestinian land; there are poor Jews and rich Jews; there are religious Jews and Athiest Jews. There is also everything in between. When you lump us together into one, singular enemy, you are saying that the very diverse heritage that I am a part of is the cause of your problems. In so doing, you are participating (maybe inadvertently) in a long history of bigotry merely so you can have a convenient name for these large and complex problems.
Please stop using "Jews" as shorthand for real problems and actual bad people. This has only ever led to very real violence and oppression in the past."
What do you all think?
posted by Jeddelicious at 4:38 PM on November 20, 2013 [1 favorite]
So this question was actually written by my girlfriend under my username. I made the suggestion to for her to post it last night because she was upset and I did not have any great advice. After reading some of the comments here, this was the response I thought she could give to her friends (although it would have to be translated):
"I understand and respect that you are upset about real problems in Chile, but not only is it irresponsible to fight inequality this way, it is ineffective too. If you start using factually incorrect and historically bigoted points to make your argument, you undermine credibility even if you do have an underlying point.
It can be really dangerous to provide a scapegoat for systemic socioeconomic problems--especially when that scapegoat is based on on ridiculous generalization about an ethnic minorities with secret powers (one that also has a long, traumatic history of being treated this way).
Blaming "the jews" is not only hurtful and ignorant, it is a really bad way to be persuasive. I know it can be nice and comforting to have a simple, singular explanation for the ills of the world, but when has anything ever been simple? Jews are made up of many different people with many different backgrounds. There are left-wing Jews who fight for Palestinian rights and right-wing Jews who believe god promised them Palestinian land; there are poor Jews and rich Jews; there are religious Jews and Athiest Jews. There is also everything in between. When you lump us together into one, singular enemy, you are saying that the very diverse heritage that I am a part of is the cause of your problems. In so doing, you are participating (maybe inadvertently) in a long history of bigotry merely so you can have a convenient name for these large and complex problems.
Please stop using "Jews" as shorthand for real problems and actual bad people. This has only ever led to very real violence and oppression in the past."
What do you all think?
posted by Jeddelicious at 4:38 PM on November 20, 2013 [1 favorite]
This argument positions them to say "We aren't talking about you, you're the good kind of Jew! We are talking about the international Jewish bankers that are taking over Chile!" And... a bad way to be persuasive? What does this mean? The article is a *good* way to persuade people that powerful Jews are acting behind the scenes to Chile's detriment. It's not an ineffective attempt to call attention to Chile's socioeconomic problems -- it is what it is. And her friends likely believe it is true. I wouldn't give them nearly as much credit as she does here. Why not just call bullshit?
posted by Wordwoman at 6:00 PM on November 20, 2013
posted by Wordwoman at 6:00 PM on November 20, 2013
Response by poster: I guess it is important to say that the message I wrote above was particularly in response to a response from one of the facebook posters who tried to downplay the jewish angle but did not remove the post (which is getting re-posted, by the way). Here is a google translated defense from that person:
"No offense to anyone, I think the above [link] shows how terrible are the rulers of the nations who sell land like an object that has monetary value! ... A shame that the world is becoming property follow a few, whoever they were. "
So my argument was focused on addressing the fact that it does matter who is being blamed.
posted by Jeddelicious at 7:09 PM on November 20, 2013
"No offense to anyone, I think the above [link] shows how terrible are the rulers of the nations who sell land like an object that has monetary value! ... A shame that the world is becoming property follow a few, whoever they were. "
So my argument was focused on addressing the fact that it does matter who is being blamed.
posted by Jeddelicious at 7:09 PM on November 20, 2013
I think you made a beautiful statement, a statement deserving of nothing less than a "I'm sorry to have been so offensive" response.
posted by oceanjesse at 10:41 PM on November 20, 2013
posted by oceanjesse at 10:41 PM on November 20, 2013
At this point, I wouldn't engage further.
posted by oceanjesse at 10:41 PM on November 20, 2013
posted by oceanjesse at 10:41 PM on November 20, 2013
What do you all think?
I think that's a good piece of work. Post that where everybody can see it, but avoid getting into a public argument with that as the starting point. I don't believe there's a valid good-faith rebuttal to what you wrote, so anybody who tries to attack it publicly is just going to look like a dick; let them.
posted by flabdablet at 10:51 PM on November 20, 2013
I think that's a good piece of work. Post that where everybody can see it, but avoid getting into a public argument with that as the starting point. I don't believe there's a valid good-faith rebuttal to what you wrote, so anybody who tries to attack it publicly is just going to look like a dick; let them.
posted by flabdablet at 10:51 PM on November 20, 2013
Disturbing. Jews may not control everything but she should at least feel empowered to craft her own response rather than use her boyfriend's script.
posted by Salamandrous at 3:10 AM on November 21, 2013
posted by Salamandrous at 3:10 AM on November 21, 2013
Response by poster: Disturbing. Jews may not control everything but she should at least feel empowered to craft her own response rather than use her boyfriend's script.
Salamandrous--I don't know what you are projecting into our relationship, but I think you are making a lot of baseless assumptions.
It was a suggestion for her that I came up with, not a script. We are also both Jewish, but I do not know these friends of hers. I was trying to contribute to the thread and work out an idea with the help of some thoughtful strangers. In the end, she liked some of my ideas, but found it a bit too serious for a good friend.
posted by Jeddelicious at 4:52 AM on November 21, 2013
Salamandrous--I don't know what you are projecting into our relationship, but I think you are making a lot of baseless assumptions.
It was a suggestion for her that I came up with, not a script. We are also both Jewish, but I do not know these friends of hers. I was trying to contribute to the thread and work out an idea with the help of some thoughtful strangers. In the end, she liked some of my ideas, but found it a bit too serious for a good friend.
posted by Jeddelicious at 4:52 AM on November 21, 2013
How seriously do they seem to be taking it? You obviously read Spanish and if you are not a native speaker is it possible that you are missing something subtle and they are not taking it quite as serious as you are saying?
Consider the fact that political correctness and cultural/racial sensitivity are not the same in Latin America and the USA (I'm assuming you are estadounidense). An Argentina friend constantly uses the word nigger which I find appalling and I've told him that but it doesn't stop him. You won't stop or convince these people. Maybe politely mention it once and then move on and either ignore it or drop them depending on how much you are offended.
posted by Che boludo! at 5:50 PM on November 19, 2014
Consider the fact that political correctness and cultural/racial sensitivity are not the same in Latin America and the USA (I'm assuming you are estadounidense). An Argentina friend constantly uses the word nigger which I find appalling and I've told him that but it doesn't stop him. You won't stop or convince these people. Maybe politely mention it once and then move on and either ignore it or drop them depending on how much you are offended.
posted by Che boludo! at 5:50 PM on November 19, 2014
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