How can I finish my MAT graduate degree in another school?

October 9, 2013 12:02 PM

I'd like to know what options I have for finishing a MAT (or MIT) graduate degree in and around Boston when basically I'm missing the practicum and student teaching but have acquired almost all required academic courses aside from that. I'd want to transfer something like 70-90% of my credits. I can no longer stay in my program (thanks to my advisor's say-so: it's not that I'm failing), and transferring 2 classes within the institution (to another Education degree) is possible, but I'd have to reapply, and basically take 70% of the new (general M.Ed) degree. I do like this degree. However, at this point, I've been in school so long I can't take it anymore, but I do want to teach (in an alternative school, granted). Yes, I know I can teach without a degree; at this point I would really rather not simply quit, though.

Some of the things I'm open to is internships/apprenticeship programs in Massachusetts-- probably starting next fall, especially if they have an optional Master's component (I'd probably be able to transfer something, at least, and I'd be working). If I'm in a program like that, I may be okay with only 15-20% transfer, granted it's a really good program. I am biased towards stuff I start in the spring, but obviously that may be hard.

I am picky with schools (and internship programs). I'm a big alternative/progressive ed person, and it's not that I hate public schools, but the worst ones traumatize me a bit (I am very introverted and shy, I have philosophical issues with some of the policies/budget decision, some types of discipline really frustrate me a lot, and just in general I'm a bit of an odd duck). I'm not so picky I'm willing to pay people to get me as an intern instead (which I have seen with some alternative schools in MA).

I would greatly enjoy simply finishing the path I'm currently on, except at another school (so.., a couple of remaining classes and a practicum/student-teaching path). I know most places don't accept this many transfer credits, but I am not picky about the institution. I really just want it to exist. If I absolutely have to and it is likely to transfer credits, I can move anywhere in the US for next fall.

I'm also open to pathways to Certification in MA and forgetting about my grad degree; yes I'm sort of sick of this problem, to be honest, and a part of me is like 'to hell with it all', but there's a reason I went this route. I need support to teach (see above, re: shy, socially anxious, general misfit who's traumatized by inner-city public schools having gone to them herself). I'm also open to someone if they are of the opinion I should stay and apply/go to the Education Studies degree. There are things to recommend it. I am a very theory-driven person (even though I'm a teacher-wannabe), enjoy observation-based research by nature ('just let me watch' is my middle name), I am passionate about issues in education, and I want to start my own alternative school. It's therefore vaguely possible I'd decide to get an Education PhD at some point (just not now). The whole 'staying here an extra year and basically starting nearly from scratch thing, after doing nothing in the spring' isn't really exciting me about that prospect. But it's a prospect, as opposed to the lack of other prospects (let's not count 'get a retail job' right now).

posted by reenka to Education (12 answers total)

Cambridge College, Lesley University, and Curry College are all very generous about accepting transfer credits. There are probably others that are equally so, but those are the three that come to mind.
posted by Sidhedevil at 12:26 PM on October 9, 2013

Is there a way to simply switch to another adviser within your program? That seems like it would be easiest. It's not clear from your post what the actual issue is with your current program, if you are not failing. The only other issues that easily pop to my mind are personality conflict (in which case switching to a new adviser in your same program seems like a good choice) or something sketchy and illegal on your adviser's part (sexual harassment, etc.), which seems like the sort of thing you could escalate. I think more detail on this conflict would get you better answers.
posted by rainbowbrite at 12:26 PM on October 9, 2013

Response by poster: I'd be really happy if I could switch advisors.... unfortunately, well, she's the head of the MAT program (and my advisor), so I am sure even if I switched, I can't just not deal with her... though yes, I should have thought of this. I mean, she certainly didn't bring it up as an option!

To describe the whole sorry issue: as Isaid, I am pretty picky and neurotic about schools, but it's not just neuroticism. I am genuinely concerned about some issues in pedagogy and am sensitive to them in terms of picking a mentor teacher to work with for a year. I don't need 'amazing', just someone who doesn't make me twitch and/or want to run away. Before I was accepted, I did say that I am concerned with student-centric learning, progressive pedagogy, and would prefer smaller, experimental/alternative or just very good schools. My first 'match' was a great/cool teacher in a smallish urban HS. You have to realize, I came from a very alternative background and so I took the 'cool' for granted and the 'small' as 'not that rare'-- so I said maybe, I'll keep looking. Every other match they offered me was a huge, urban public school with frankly problematic teachers and/or no teacher I was referred to at all (that is, they were throwing me at a school they had an agreement with and then seeing what stuck). That approach didn't work at all.

I was pro-active and started looking around myself for cool places to do my practicum-- but my placement advisor (there's a placement advisor who's in charge of placement calls/emails/monitoring) wasn't super-helpful or active in my search. I found a super-cool alternative school but I didn't really have a strong 'in'. I may have done it except the teacher decided to take someone from her alma mater for a student-teacher. I visited several other schools to no great progress. My advisor promised me several options-- I could do a paper/research observation (to 'make up' for a missed practicum), I could tutor at another HS-- but she always changed her mind after talking with her co-professor and the placement advisor. (Note: this was after I'd committed to this as an option). So then the last idea was to start early and begin 'on time' this year; I was willing to narrow my parameters to the rather generic 'a school in a nice/suburban town/neighborhood' and that's it. I emailed my advisor in June and then in August (while he was on break), so we didn't communicate until classes started except him saying that he's on it. Even once they started, he didn't give me options: he once again sprung something on me. This time it was one school (in Belmont), and both advisors agreed this was my only chance.

Belmont isn't a school they have an agreement with, but they agreed to an interview. I went, and it was okay (even though there was a miscommunication, as I was pre-practicum and wouldn't need an interview until before student-teaching). The English Dean accepted me, and the Advisors again invented new requirements (I was to redo the papers I already did for the Incomplete Practicum seminar class, but whatever). However, then the Placement Advisor called the Belmont Dean and apparently she decided something was off with what he said, because now my institution and Belmont don't have congruent expectations of student teaching, and so I am left without a placement. And this was my last chance. No matter what I do, I'll retain the placement guy, so I'm not optimistic about asking another advisor. He's just.... yeah. But I could try talking to the Education dept Dean??

My Advisor(s) have this whole narrative about how I'm too picky, they gave me loads of chances (they especially like to recall the time I was accompanied by another professor/advisor to an urban HS with a particularly blah teacher that I never want to see teach again). Since the other advisor drove me, she got to listen to all my opinions about what went wrong, and this apparently stuck with her in that even the advisor who wasn't there keeps reminding me how ungrateful I am. Anyway, so I'm like the Princess and the Pea, and they did all they could, and it's like I'm always looking for faults, and also my interpersonal skills aren't the best 'cause I don't hide my opinions during interviews (and this is not collegial). Btw, this last interview I did withhold personal feelings and wishes, and ironically the teacher/dean had congruent views on student engagement/student-centric learning. So yes, it's kind of a personality thing (between me and the Placement Advisor) 'cause I think they take my feelings a little personally and he thinks I'm just entitled or something. My actual Advisor is cool and flexible, but is always made inflexible by the Placement advisor, and also she said 'this is it, last chance-- btw, try transferring'. Then the Head of Ed Studies said 'oh btw, you only transfer 2 classes'. Heh.
posted by reenka at 12:52 PM on October 9, 2013 [1 favorite]

If I were you I would fight the advice to transfer (i.e. get rid of you) and do whatever it took to get a practicum of any type this year. If they offered you Belmont, Belmont was OK with it, and you accepted, why ultimately did the Placement Advisor veto the placement? Escalate to the dean at this point and attempt to overrule the Placement Advisor.
posted by crazy with stars at 1:35 PM on October 9, 2013

Thanks for the update! I will say, from my experience knowing many K-12 teachers among family and friends, and teaching at the college level myself -- this is a career where it is not optional to learn how to deal with difficult people. Even if you find the perfect job at the perfect school (of which, let's be honest, there are not many out there) ...there will always, always be that fellow teacher, administrator, parent, or student who gets under your skin and whose methods/approach you just do not agree with. Part of the job is learning to deal with that.

So...I would stick it out with your current program, and figure out how to make whichever placement you can obtain work. In the long run, this is going to take a lot less time/energy/money than transferring. Ultimately, a student teaching gig is NOT forever...by definition it's for a limited amount of time. You can stick it out, even if it's not your perfect/ideal school situation, and I guarantee you can learn a lot even from a mentor teacher you're not crazy about. Think of this as the veggies you have to eat before you get to pursue the career you really want...is 6 months of a non-ideal student teaching gig really the thing that you're going to let keep you from it? If so, maybe teaching is not the right career for you.
posted by rainbowbrite at 1:36 PM on October 9, 2013 [2 favorites]

Response by poster: Sorry, pronoun problems. To clarify: 'he' is the Placement Advisor, and it was she (the Belmont English dept dean) who vetoed (after accepting). God, I would so not veto anything at this point; I even told my Advisor I'd take anything, any school. And she said, 'but we don't want just any school, we want you to fit'. SEE. This is what I'm talking about. I literally?? Cannot imagine more mixed signals. Yes, so 'desperation' and 'really wanting a placement already, thanks' are not good reasons. And yet expressing reservations means I'm idealistic and looking for the 'perfect' school (I'm not... was for a bit, but then quickly stopped). Certainly I'm not anymore. It was never 'perfect' I wanted, just 'comfortable', and this is relevant to me 'cause I am sensitive (as in, social phobia-type sensitive) but you know, working on it. Anyway I mostly got over my 'bleh', though to this day I say Malden HS is still a no. God, that was awful.

Yeah I would probably take it now. Probably. God, though, it was pretty bad. I would take it, but I'm just saying... it's the whole place *and* the teacher. This huge, anonymous, slot-in-the-wall type place with shouty/ignore-you-and-speak-over-you teachers who use power-points and chop-chop-chop hurry their students along and I was just like.... remembering how I felt in HS. And how much worse it must be for the actual teenagers. When I say traumatizing, I mean it flashbacks me to actual sources of emotional trauma. A good HS makes me happy. By 'good' I just mean 'decent'.

Anyway I'll try to talk to the Dean but since it's Belmont that canceled, it's not a question of overriding him. I emailed Belmont's English dept head but she didn't respond.

I don't want to transfer but it's just sort of clusterfucky.
posted by reenka at 1:49 PM on October 9, 2013

I think they are trying to counsel you out. They think you will wash out in the first two years of teaching -- based on what you've written, you ARE picky about what school environments you are willing to teach in, you are NOT collegial or able to deal with many different types of adults, parents, and colleagues, you seem strangely naive about school culture, management, and funding (but maybe just because it isn't the focus of the question) but in such a way that it makes me wonder if you could effectively work within a school infrastructure. But most importantly, because you are unprepared to deal with the large variety of problems that students bring to the classroom and you have an idealized vision of teaching and idealized set of students who will meet your particular standards for what you would like to see in a classroom and school setting. While that is fair to ask of adults you work with (it may make it hard to find a job, but it's okay as long as you know that), it's totally unfair to ask of children.

There is so much in your questions about education about finding what YOU want, putting into practice YOUR ideas, living YOUR ideals, thinking about YOUR philosophical issues, YOUR personality issues, and, even in these long discourses on your ideas about education and your future work life, never anything about the students, individually or as a group, except how much YOU disliked your high school. So much about teaching, so little about learning. Someone who calls themselves "theory-centered" is a big red flag in our official HR intake stuff; they want people who are student-centered. There are many different kinds of teachers who can succeed as teachers -- different personalities, different ideologies, different teaching styles -- so I don't mean it's just about being introverted or excited by theory or anything, but they all have in common that the student is at the center of their professional orientation, and that they can manage and handle the ... adiaphora, I guess, the unimportant stuff that floats around demanding your attention and your students' attention and tries to distract you from the work of learning. Your story here about the clusterfracas of your placement shows a real inability to deal with all the adiaphora, and your talk about what you want from your professional life makes me think of this counterpoint from the Onion (although I understand you are a non-traditional student).

As you hopefully know, teaching jobs are hard to get right now, with many more applicants than available positions in most areas, especially areas like English. If what you've written here is an accurate summary of your interactions with your program (I understand a lot may be left out), and also accurately portrays the same "you" that you are portraying to your supervisors and mentors (I understand they may have a whole different, better-rounded picture of you), I think they're trying to counsel you out because they think you will not succeed in the classroom.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 2:12 PM on October 9, 2013 [7 favorites]

Response by poster: Yeah, I can see that pov; like I said, I'm open to people saying I should go with the M.Ed (though no one said that, I'm not against it).

I do want to clarify that I'd define myself (in terms of teaching preference) as student-centered, and this was indeed my keyword I always told everyone last fall (and people told me they are a traditional school when I said that). I am theory-centered also (and I mentioned this to say this is why the Educational Studies thing does make sense), but this isn't because I'm not student-centered, or because I expect students to be other than how they are. I love teenagers. If anything, I love the worst of teenagers (as much as the best). I don't have any particular requirements. I didn't feel any 'happier' about the students in the small alternative school I enjoyed visiting, except in that they were more comfortable, chatty and open there than in the mass urban HS where they just sat there and/or were interrupted/shushed. I would never say I'm theory-centered except in reference to that M.Ed... my *personality* is certainly abstract/theoretical (and introspective...very introspective yes). My *interest* is in adolescent psychology, writing, interaction, thoughts, feelings, needs, etc.

It's certainly very difficult for me to deal with schools as they are. In many ways I'm fully aware I'm unsuited, but I'm doing this knowing it's an effort. Hell, I was doing this primarily thinking I'll apply to alternative schools, though I've softened my stance. I don't know... I'll cop to everything but not caring about the students, that's not something people generally accuse me of. Really it would seem ridiculous to quit at this point without ever trying. I do get where my Advisors were coming from, but pushing inner-city huge High Schools at me wasn't the best idea. I really enjoyed what I consider to be the 'normal' schools (Belmont and Brookline were both normal for middle-class enclaves in MA I think). I didn't spend long enough there to figure out if I alienate people or not, but generally it's not me who messed up those potentials. With Belmont, they accepted me before my Advisor called, so clearly it's not just that I alienated the dept head (or she woudn't have been okay with me going).

I also don't know what I can say about students, as I never stayed anywhere long enough to get a sense of them. The few times I stayed more than twice to observe a class, I have vivid memories, and some fondness. I wouldn't be doing this without the students, considering the general fracas. It's very easy for me to feel 'I'm never going to fit in, there's something wrong with me, why am I trying', but this isn't helpful. At the very least I just want to finish. I'm also a lot less insistently idealistic than I was (in previous Asks).

Anyway, if there was a place to transfer and finish the degree in peace I'd love that; staying here would be nice too. I already know I'm voted the Least Likely Person To Teach HS. I have many memories of wonderful teachers. I certainly don't have any desire to criticize in particular. I never really felt I could fit in in your average HS anyway, so in fact I'd be surprised if that worked. But I could be ideal for some small Charter start-up for the same reason a veteran inner-city school-teacher wouldn't be. Hard to say. Anyway, at some point questioning my fitness for teaching without ever even spending a month interacting with kids started to feel pretty useless. Mostly I feel I shouldn't quit grad school just like that; washing out without ever washing in seems sort of unfortunate. Even transferring to that M.Ed seems preferable to being like, 'ok I'll just go write Hollywood scripts'.

All this to say, I'm still hoping for concrete advice, as there's enough existential doubt here for anyone.
posted by reenka at 2:57 PM on October 9, 2013

Mod note: OP, please don't threadsit.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 3:06 PM on October 9, 2013

If you think you might ever want to teach in a public school, do the practicum that your MAT program arranges. You're mistaken in your belief that the student teaching is meant to train you in a particular way of teaching. You develop your own way in time, according to your own values. Being in the classroom with a cooperating teacher gives you a lot of really useful experience, a lot of it completely unrelated to pedagogy. Even if you end up paired with someone who makes kids sit and pass in work in alphabetical order, thinks an essay has exactly 5 paragraphs, and takes marks off for penmanship -- you'll get a lot out of it. Besides, you'll get easily certified and also be paid more (in public schools) because you have the MA.

I was supposedly training to be an English teacher, but you don't learn that in a Master's program.Here is what Here are the highlights of what I got out of the co-teaching I did in an MAT program:

-Benefited a lot from talking with other student teachers while we were doing the practice teaching.

-Learned a huge amount about planning: individual lessons, units, and entire courses. This included figuring out how to use my own time and resources.

-Learned how to deal with other people at the school who weren't students. It can be very challenging on a number of levels.

-Got exposed to all the crap paperwork and duties that were part of the job but didn't involve teaching.

-Found out about the importance of making room for my own needs; it's very easy to become overwhelmed.

-Felt better able to fake it during the first few weeks of my first real job so kids and adults wouldn't know how scared I was.

-Lost the feeling that I was completely inexperienced.

For real educators, "teaching" is what you do with and to the material to help the students understand and be able to use it. My dad, who directed a major MAT program for many years, told me that if I did my practicum in a PE class it would still be worthwhile, and he was right. Teaching with someone who isn't good at it is terrible to witness, but gives you plenty of opportunity to think of practical ways you'd do things differently. Once you get a job, you can teach in whatever way works for you, as long as you cover the curriculum and the parents are satisfied.
posted by wryly at 5:16 PM on October 9, 2013

No decent teacher is NOT student-centric. It sounds like you're far too steeped in theory of education and don't understand nearly as much about the ACT of educating.....

And, look, you are too picky. You should have taken whatever placements you were offered (all the numerous times you were offered something) and worked your own desires as much as possible into your student teaching while taking the value you can from the experienced teachers you are dismissing so easily.

And from what you say --- I don't think you'd do well as a teacher. Teaching is a lot of compromises, particularly at the high school level and regardless of your school. If you're like this about a student teaching placement, I can't imagine what it'd be like for you to try to find a job.......It doesn't sound like teaching is a good fit for you, honestly. I really think you should pursue another path.
posted by zizzle at 5:21 PM on October 9, 2013 [2 favorites]

I taught High School for two years with a BA in English. You seem very wrapped up in the ideals of teaching and of finding the optimal place for you to do your practicum. Your advisor is correct in suggesting that perhaps this program isn't for you.

Very few of us have the option of doing ANY job in an optimal setting, let alone teaching. You say you love the kids, and I believe you. I loved my kids, but they also drove me bat-shit with their disrespectful attitudes. If I had an opportunity to sit in a classroom and observe, and if I had a master teacher to show me what SHE did to quiet a class and get them to focus, I might still BE a teacher.

You may have the best of intentions, but I predict that as it is now, you would be eaten ALIVE by your students, I don't care where you end up teaching.

Perhaps now is a good time to take a step back. Get certified (which you can do without a practicum) and get out there and teach. Substitute, whatever it is.

You may find that these theories and ideals that you have today, upon which you are so insistant on standing, may need to be altered or ditched entirely.

I admire how passionate you are about changing the existing systems, I once felt that way too. I agree, schools today aren't remotely effective based as they are on an old industrial and agrarian model. I get it. But sometimes you have to dig the Panama Canal with a teaspoon and you seem too rigid and inflexible to be successful in ANY classroom, even one you would deem to be "perfect."

So go teach for a year or so, and see where you are. THEN think about where you might want to transfer.


You can open your own school right now if you want. No law against it.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 7:59 AM on October 10, 2013 [1 favorite]