Condominium By-Laws Pets
September 23, 2013 12:30 PM   Subscribe

My mother received two letters from her Condo association stating that she is in violation of a pet by-law for having me visit her at her home and bringing my dog(over 35 pounds). Here is the law as written: 10.8 A limit of one four legged animal, not weighing more than thirty-five (35) pounds is allowed per unit. I've spoken with the property management and they state that this law means no dogs over 35 pounds are allowed on property at all. As this law is written could that legally be in forced if i continue to visit with my dog?

Back Story.

This Dog has been visiting for well over 10 years. Never an issue before.

A recent change in Condo board members has left half the residents unhappy with how things are managed.

The Board seems to be targeting specific people who are related to the former board president for "By-Law" violations when many of the board members themselves are in violation themselves (i.e. plants in pots etc)

She also continues to receive the letters of violation even though the dog no longer visits.

She is afraid to address anyone on the board out of fear of retaliation.
posted by slowtree to Law & Government (24 answers total)
 
First of all, where is the condo? The state may make a difference.

Secondly, if your mother wants to ask about this interpretation of the bylaw and to challenge it, the best place to ask would the the law firm that handles her Condo's account. In Florida, 8 out of 10 times, that would be Poliakoff and Associates, but she should be able to get the name of the firm relatively easily.

But, condo boards are notoriously jerk-wads. I was on my condo board the entire time I lived in a condo, so I can attest to this.

It really depends if this is a huge deal to you and your mom. If it's just as easy for you to leave the dog at home, then that might be the better part of valor. If it's imposing a hardship on you (say you visit over the weekends and you don't want to board your dog) then you might want to find out how much of a hassle it would be to challenge the bylaw.

FYI, a Bylaw isn't THE LAW. It's just what some people put into a document when it was adopted by the condo association. Now there may be a fine schedule, so if you show up with your dog, they may fine your mother for being non-compliant.

If your mother continues to receive the letters, she should respond to them quickly and unequivicably.

Dear Condo Board,

I received this letter regarding my child's dog. Based on previous correspondance, the dog no longer visits me in my unit. Please stop sending me these letters as the issue has been addressed for quite some time.

Sincerely,

Slowtree's Mom.


Send it certified mail and copy the board's lawyer.

Don't let the bastards grind you down. Serving on the condo board makes small people smaller.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 12:41 PM on September 23, 2013 [8 favorites]


As this law is written could that legally be in forced if i continue to visit with my dog?

As Ruthless Bunny notes, this is a bylaw and not a law. It is an agreement made between the owners of units at the complex your mother lives in. It is enforceable as such, but the enforcement is limited to the methods the HOA has available - with very few exceptions, that's limited to fines. Since it is an agreement made between the owners of the units in the complex, it can be changed. If your mother is motivated, she could try to get the bylaw changed. If the complex is small and the HOA members are willing to accept the change, that can be surprisingly easy. If the complex is big and full of unwilling HOA members, your mother will have to live with the bylaw (she did agree to it, after all).

She is afraid to address anyone on the board out of fear of retaliation.

I'm not going to dismiss the chance of retaliation from a single letter stating there are no dogs in the unit and there won't be in the future. However, I think the chances of that are quite low. If your mother doesn't send a letter like Ruthless Bunny suggests, there is a guarantee the pestering will continue and there is a chance she may get a fine. If your mother does send a letter, the chance of retaliation is, in my change, substantially lower than the chance she gets a fine from not sending the letter. However, if the retaliation does occur, it is an indication to your mother the HOA management is bizarrely incompetent and petty and that she should consider moving.
posted by saeculorum at 12:56 PM on September 23, 2013 [1 favorite]


Response by poster: Awesome response!
Naples Florida to be exact. The dog is 13 years old and very much part of the family, we actually bring her because of her age and health we prefer not to leave her alone (luckily I also get to work from home). I've read a bit about "Emotional Support animals" while just a work around i considered registering my pet as one of these nsarco.com/registeryouranimal.html
rather then having jump though the loops to challenge the By law.
If that would even work.

My mother is 80 years old and loves this dog like a grandchild. Sad situation.
posted by slowtree at 1:05 PM on September 23, 2013 [2 favorites]


If the letter doesn't say what she's supposed to do (e.g., "the dog is not allowed on the property, please confirm that it will not visit again"), have her write back politely asking what course of action the board would like her to take. If it does say, have her write back confirming that she is following their prescribed course of action.

If a condo board wants to be asses, they'll be asses, and your recourse is to follow the letter of the law strictly, including communication. If she wants it fixed, she can support more reasonable board members or run herself.
posted by fatbird at 1:20 PM on September 23, 2013


I've read a bit about "Emotional Support animals"

Please don't do this unless your mother actually has a disability. Your mother and the other condo owners mutually agreed not to have large animals in the complex. (Mis-)Using the ADA/FHA to (inappropriately) work around HOA restrictions makes it harder for actually disabled people to justify their use of the ADA/FHA for their own needs. It's rather selfish.

As a practical matter, it's hard to justify an untrained dog that isn't even there all the time as being necessary to alleviate a disability.
posted by saeculorum at 1:24 PM on September 23, 2013 [24 favorites]


In case you need it, the Law Firm of Becker and Poliakoff.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 1:42 PM on September 23, 2013


Registering the dog as a support animal seems like a great idea, since the dog so obviously provides emotional support to your 80-year-old mother, and interactions with animals have been shown to improve quality of life and longevity for the aged, a demographic that is often forgotten or disregarded by many.
posted by KokuRyu at 1:46 PM on September 23, 2013 [3 favorites]


Tell em to blow it out their arse. The law as written states one dog, no more than 35 lbs allowed per unit. It does not prohibit visiting dogs. If they want to interpret it that no big dogs are allowed, period, then they should have written it that way. This will require a meeting of the condo board to change the by-laws.
posted by Gungho at 1:53 PM on September 23, 2013 [10 favorites]


I have a feeling registering the dog as a support animal may be viewed as escalation by the HOA board. Given your mother's understandable hesitance to provoke retaliation, I'd be very cautious about starting an arms war.

Your mom agreed to the No Big Dogs clause. Just because no one's squawked about it for the past 10 years doesn't mean it's OK for your family to disregard that bylaw, even if you feel it is unfair in general, or shouldn't apply to your specific case.

I would suggest finding a more peaceful alternative to allow your mom and dog to interact. Perhaps have a family gathering at an outdoor area (park), if your mom's mobility allows for it.
posted by nacho fries at 1:55 PM on September 23, 2013


It could be liability. Some insurance companies ask landlords not to allow pets because if there is a personal injury claim that will win in court it's animal attacks (at least where I'm renting out), which makes both the pet owner and the property owner liable. In your case that may mean the entire condo would be liable.

I realize your dog had no plans to attack someone, so this may sound outlandish to you, but this is a sue-happy country so there you go. If that was the source of their concern (maybe someone dropped the word 'lawsuit' at a Board meeting) you could offer to get pet liability to assuage their concerns.
posted by lillian.elmtree at 2:49 PM on September 23, 2013 [1 favorite]


Im with the people saying this law as written sounds intended to address dogs staying at the condo. If your dog is just visiting for a few hours with you I would take the letters and just throw them out after sending a response saying no dogs reside at the condo.
posted by WeekendJen at 3:00 PM on September 23, 2013 [2 favorites]


I got the impression that slowtree was looking into registering the dog as their own "Support Animal" not their mother's. For instance, if their mother had a blind friend — who had a guide dog — come to visit, that dog would be necessary to the visitor, not the mother.
posted by mon-ma-tron at 3:03 PM on September 23, 2013 [2 favorites]


Mon-ma-tron, i read it that way as well.

I'm going to address this from the angle of what kind of restrictions they can place on visitors and not residents. With the preface that you should really contact a local tenants rights organization(because condos are not standard property ownership, and are more of a tenancy situation like a rental than even a co-op is) is that well...

A lot of places like to huff and puff and blow smoke out of their asses with rules about what visitors to residents units are and aren't allowed to do. My current building for instance has a very similar rule that they're repeatedly tried to enforce(and even put up signs to the effect of!) that no one is allowed to visit with any size of dog for any reason and encouraging people to narc on eachother about this(ugh).

As far as i know, that is as 100% unenforceable in my area. The reason being that the person visiting

A. Doesn't reside there, and presumably in good faith is not staying longer than the duration that visitors are allowed to stay as per the lease

B. Didn't sign any agreement with Ridiculous Overreaching Landlord(It is in many situations up to the tenant to make sure visitors follow the rules, but based on the fact that the rules do not seem to prevent visitors who didn't sign an agreement from bringing >35lb dogs this is a good point)

Check in with a tenants rights organization on the legality, but this reads as tiresome busybody bullshit. I would tell them the dog doesn't live there and only visits once every few months and not reply beyond that.

I wouldn't say the dog doesn't visit anymore and not bring it back, i'd say that the dog doesn't live there and therefor isn't violating the rule which is directed at residents.

I've spoken with the property management and they state that this law means no dogs over 35 pounds are allowed on property at all.

Is not what the rule says at all(go look at the exact verbiage!!!) and is a liberal, and what one might call an assholes interpretation.

At least at my place they rewrote the actual lease to have that exact language in there to prevent this loophole. If they didn't, well then tough shit. Up to them to change the rules.
posted by emptythought at 4:26 PM on September 23, 2013 [1 favorite]


Please don't do this unless your mother actually has a disability. Your mother and the other condo owners mutually agreed not to have large animals in the complex. (Mis-)Using the ADA/FHA to (inappropriately) work around HOA restrictions makes it harder for actually disabled people to justify their use of the ADA/FHA for their own needs. It's rather selfish.

As a practical matter, it's hard to justify an untrained dog that isn't even there all the time as being necessary to alleviate a disability.


I would disagree. This is exactly the type of situation where the dog is giving emotional support to someone who needs it. Anyone who would try to keep a 13 year old dog from visiting a little old lady who loves her, deserves a nasty case of something horribly itchy on their privates.
posted by WalkerWestridge at 4:27 PM on September 23, 2013 [4 favorites]


One real quick thing i forgot is that getting the dog in some way declared your service animal(not hers! for the reasons described above about seldom visiting and you know, being your dog) is not a route around this drama.

It will prevent them from being able to theoretically do anything, but won't prevent them from endlessly harassing you with fines and such that you'll have to challenge and defend against. Rather than battering-ramming them head on with that "can't touch me" of the service animal stuff is probably going to create equally if not more saddlesore hobbyhorsing on their part than just rules lawyering them with "well this rule isn't specifically written to address visitors, just residents".

It's kind of a choose your own adventure of two shitty options of which neither will instantly shut them up. Do you really think they'd just lie down and take the service animal one though, you know?
posted by emptythought at 4:30 PM on September 23, 2013


The condo board is probably concerned about what the dog does in common areas or how it reacts to other people, rather than what the dog does in your mother's unit.

Assuming you always keep your dog on a leash when outside:
Does your dog bark much? Whether inside your mother's unit or not, loud barking is something that affects other people.
Does the dog lunge or jump at people, whether friendly jumping or aggressive?
When you take the dog out for walks, do you walk the dog on condo property? Even if you pick up the dog's poop, that would still leave the urine and urine smell.
posted by easily confused at 5:48 PM on September 23, 2013


There's some confusion here about a service dog versus an emotional support dog.

A service dog is a dog trained to help someone with a disability, and it must perform specific tasks to mitigate the disability. (Note that what constitutes a disability and mitigation have specific legal definitions.) Service dogs are legally entitled to public access under the Americans with Disabilities Act. If you represent that a dog is a service dog but you do not have a disability that is mitigated by specific tasks the dog performs, you are committing fraud and can be prosecuted. Fraudulently presenting a dog as a service dog also makes things harder for people with disabilities, who are confronted by members of the public who believe most service dogs are fake and who accuse disabled people of abusing the system to take their pets wherever they go.

An emotional support dog does not have a legal right to public access under the ADA. It does not therefore have to meet a federal legal standard. There may be state/local laws about emotional support animals, this depends on where you are. Nationally there are no laws guaranteeing you can bring an emotional support dog to the condo. This designation therefore may not solve your problem.
posted by medusa at 7:55 PM on September 23, 2013 [3 favorites]


Nthing the 'letter of the by-law' answers. The best kind of correct is technically correct.

Also, you might get to watch them contort to change the by-laws, that ought to be fun.
posted by Slackermagee at 6:15 AM on September 24, 2013


Has she spoken to her neighbours about it? Is there a new neighbour? Have there been complaints (barking, other noise, aggression to people walking around, failing to remove all traces of urine/poo)?

I'm not sure how they would know the dog is visiting at all unless there've been complaints about it, particularly if you aren't there all that often. They might be suddenly enforcing this bylaw as a way to address recent complaints.

If your mom is "afraid to address anyone on the board out of fear of retaliation", there isn't much you can or should do, out of respect for her wishes, since you've already spoken politely to property management to plead your case. It sounds like the legal hassle is something your mom doesn't want, regardless of whether she "wins" in the end, and no matter how much she loves the dog. If your mom can't visit the dog at your place, maybe you could visit at a nearby park or just outside of the condo property.
posted by randomnity at 8:44 AM on September 24, 2013


Gungho: "Tell em to blow it out their arse. The law as written states one dog, no more than 35 lbs allowed per unit. It does not prohibit visiting dogs. "

That's your reading of it, and others will disagree. I do: there's no wording that makes an exception for dogs "just visiting".

The one opinion that matters is that of the most powerful force applied (IOW, if it escalates to small claims court, the judge).
posted by IAmBroom at 9:38 AM on September 24, 2013


Seriously? Anyone reading that verbiage will choose Owner and not Visitor. There are other words that would indicate visitor if they were used. E.G. No 4-legged...allowed on the property.
posted by Gungho at 11:39 AM on September 24, 2013


Seriously? Anyone reading that verbiage will choose Owner and not Visitor.

At the risk of arguing in the thread, I will simply state that there are at least two people in this thread (myself and IAmBroom) that read the bylaw as indicating visitors may not bring in a 35 lb 4-legged pet.

However, a 35-pound fish visitor would be pretty damn awesome.
posted by saeculorum at 11:53 AM on September 24, 2013 [2 favorites]


I'm not sure how they would know the dog is visiting at all unless there've been complaints about it, particularly if you aren't there all that often. They might be suddenly enforcing this bylaw as a way to address recent complaints.

Both as a help to the OP, and to answer this... my mom lives in a condo-ish building that's probably a lot like this. As in, people >55 years entirely.

Even if the dog has done nothing wrong, there's TONS of gossip and busybodies who create a continuous chain of either reporting stuff they see that's against the rules(and spying on EVERYTHING) or reporting the tiniest things in retaliation for getting reported on tiny things. And not even necessarily from the person getting reported, but simply in a "if i can't get away with stuff no one can!" thing.

From what i've seen, a lot of condo buildings are like this in general.

I doubt the dog did anything except exist, and that someone simply saw it and sneered and went "Well... We'll see what they have to say about this".
posted by emptythought at 2:40 PM on September 24, 2013 [3 favorites]


Yah, emptythought, that seems to happen to a lot of people at some elderly age. My 80+ neighbor is lovely to be around, EXCEPT that every conversation has to include a complaint about what one of the 4 of us in this condominium did wrong.

I weeded her bushes and trimmed them; she complained that I didn't pick up the debris completely.

A new neighbor walked her dog by; the dog peed on her bushes - AND SHE DIDN'T CLEAN IT UP!!! Pee, mind you. On bushes. In a city where rain is more common than sunshine (well, almost).

Come to think of it, she might just be OCD about her shrubbery...
posted by IAmBroom at 8:40 PM on September 24, 2013 [1 favorite]


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