End of lease renting issue in California - Landlord changed his mind?
September 1, 2013 2:09 PM Subscribe
Our three year lease (CA, in L.A. County) ended today. We had a prior verbal agreement with our landlord that we would stay through 10/15/13. Today we found a note in our box indicating that he would expect us to move on on or prior to 9/10/13. We have movers scheduled, last days of work, moving across the country, flights and cat transport etc. all planned around moving on 10/15. We're panicking, we realize we screwed up not getting the verbal agreement in writing. If we can't change his mind, do we have any options under CA state law? (Already tried the free legal aid hotlines, etc., and will contact professionals, no one is open on holiday weekend)
Not sure what happened - landlord has been is strange person who rented to us because he liked my shoes and thought our cat was cute.
Just to make it even slightly more unsettling, our elderly, weird landlord in the past has no compunctions about following state/federal laws (e.g. providing 24 hours notice before coming into the unit - whenever we're out of town he just comes over to "make sure the cat isn't lonely"). He lives on the same property. We've stayed all three years because we REALLY like the view, and it is worth putting up with our weird landlord. So...if we do have a legal right to stay even for a while, advice on what can do to protect ourselves?
Thanks anyone.
Not sure what happened - landlord has been is strange person who rented to us because he liked my shoes and thought our cat was cute.
Just to make it even slightly more unsettling, our elderly, weird landlord in the past has no compunctions about following state/federal laws (e.g. providing 24 hours notice before coming into the unit - whenever we're out of town he just comes over to "make sure the cat isn't lonely"). He lives on the same property. We've stayed all three years because we REALLY like the view, and it is worth putting up with our weird landlord. So...if we do have a legal right to stay even for a while, advice on what can do to protect ourselves?
Thanks anyone.
To add to this, I've dealt with landlords in the past that do not adhere to state regulations, and usually an acknowledgment that you do know what the law is, along with a gentle tone that is willing to discuss the situation amicably, is pretty sufficient.
If it's any consolation, it's very difficult to evict people from their homes in CA, and the process is long and tedious, and well beyond the time frame you are working with. Worst case scenario, you will not be living on the streets before your 10/15 move date. I'm betting your landlord is going to be willing to work with you on this.
posted by SpacemanStix at 2:22 PM on September 1, 2013 [1 favorite]
If it's any consolation, it's very difficult to evict people from their homes in CA, and the process is long and tedious, and well beyond the time frame you are working with. Worst case scenario, you will not be living on the streets before your 10/15 move date. I'm betting your landlord is going to be willing to work with you on this.
posted by SpacemanStix at 2:22 PM on September 1, 2013 [1 favorite]
You say he's elderly and weird? Is it possible he just forgot about your verbal agreement and needs a gentle reminder, especially if you made your agreement three years ago? I am not elderly (weird is still up for discussion) and I might be hard pressed to remember an informal conversation from three years ago.
Talk to him first before you panic.
posted by jesourie at 2:23 PM on September 1, 2013 [2 favorites]
Talk to him first before you panic.
posted by jesourie at 2:23 PM on September 1, 2013 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: Talked to him, his caregiver is moving into our house and is tired of waiting for us to move - so he says we absolutely must be out by 9/10.
posted by stewiethegreat at 2:37 PM on September 1, 2013
posted by stewiethegreat at 2:37 PM on September 1, 2013
He's never going to be able to kick you out before 10/15, and unless he's utterly incompetent then he already knows that.
I would start by gently "reminding" him that you had a prior agreement to be out by then, and let him know that you are "a little perplexed" by the short notice he's given you since "as far as you understand it", California calls for 60 days' notice which would give you until the end of October. Let him know that you've made plans around the date that you had oroginally agreed to and that it will not be possible for you to change them, especially on such short notice. Thank him for having been such an excellent landlord and for providing such a great apartment for you to live in these last three years, and tell him that you're sure he understands why you won't be able to alter the agreement that you and he already had.
I would make sure that you tell him all this in writing (email is good for this) and ask for him to write you back as soon as he can. Hopefully in his reply he will acknowledge your prior agreement, and then you'll have him bang to rights should you have to really fight him. Continue to politely insist that you had an agreement to move out on 10/15, never admit that the agreement was informal or that it might not be binding, but don't try to get really aggressive about it either. Keep everything in writing, as it will slow him down and provide you a paper trail should you need to escalate. Move slowly and carefully, don't hurry to reply to him. He'll never evict you before you move out. Not gonna happen.
Good luck!
posted by Scientist at 2:40 PM on September 1, 2013 [14 favorites]
I would start by gently "reminding" him that you had a prior agreement to be out by then, and let him know that you are "a little perplexed" by the short notice he's given you since "as far as you understand it", California calls for 60 days' notice which would give you until the end of October. Let him know that you've made plans around the date that you had oroginally agreed to and that it will not be possible for you to change them, especially on such short notice. Thank him for having been such an excellent landlord and for providing such a great apartment for you to live in these last three years, and tell him that you're sure he understands why you won't be able to alter the agreement that you and he already had.
I would make sure that you tell him all this in writing (email is good for this) and ask for him to write you back as soon as he can. Hopefully in his reply he will acknowledge your prior agreement, and then you'll have him bang to rights should you have to really fight him. Continue to politely insist that you had an agreement to move out on 10/15, never admit that the agreement was informal or that it might not be binding, but don't try to get really aggressive about it either. Keep everything in writing, as it will slow him down and provide you a paper trail should you need to escalate. Move slowly and carefully, don't hurry to reply to him. He'll never evict you before you move out. Not gonna happen.
Good luck!
posted by Scientist at 2:40 PM on September 1, 2013 [14 favorites]
Talked to him, his caregiver is moving into our house and is tired of waiting for us to move - so he says we absolutely must be out by 9/10.
Not to keep beating this drum, but you absolutely do not have to do that. There is the question of being in a tense situation with someone who lives in close proximity to you, but there are no legal grounds for him to do this, and no moral obligation for you to do so.
posted by SpacemanStix at 2:51 PM on September 1, 2013 [8 favorites]
Not to keep beating this drum, but you absolutely do not have to do that. There is the question of being in a tense situation with someone who lives in close proximity to you, but there are no legal grounds for him to do this, and no moral obligation for you to do so.
posted by SpacemanStix at 2:51 PM on September 1, 2013 [8 favorites]
On reading your reply, I'm not surprised to hear that it's something like that. Stupid landlords are constantly trying to alter deals in illegal ways to suit their own convenience. My advice up above still holds, though. Just politely tell him that you and he had a deal, that it's simply impossible for you to alter your end of it, and that it's especially not going to be possible for you to move out in 9 days when CA tenant law entitles you to 60 days' notice. Tell him that you sympathize with his caregiver, but that unfortunately he or she will have to make other plans since you will not be able to leave before the 15th of October.
Your landlord has been making promises to his caregiver that he is not going to be able to keep. You have absolutely no obligation to help him out there, and indeed it is totally unreasonable of him to ask you to uproot yourself more than a month early with only a week or so of notice. He may think that he has the authority to tell you to do this, but he doesn't. What he is actually asking of you is a favor -- a huge, very expensive, massively-inconvenient, totally-beyond-the-pale favor that you are under absolutely no obligation, either social or legal, to do for him. I would hesitate to do something like this for a family member, even if they were in real need and it seemed the only solution. You absolutely should not do this preposterous favor for your landlord, with whom you have only a business relationship and who it sounds like you don't really even like.
Also you should politely insist that he give you 24 hours' notice, as required by law, before entering your apartment in the future. That kind of barging in could become an intimidation tactic, and you should make it clear that you know your rights.
posted by Scientist at 2:54 PM on September 1, 2013 [11 favorites]
Your landlord has been making promises to his caregiver that he is not going to be able to keep. You have absolutely no obligation to help him out there, and indeed it is totally unreasonable of him to ask you to uproot yourself more than a month early with only a week or so of notice. He may think that he has the authority to tell you to do this, but he doesn't. What he is actually asking of you is a favor -- a huge, very expensive, massively-inconvenient, totally-beyond-the-pale favor that you are under absolutely no obligation, either social or legal, to do for him. I would hesitate to do something like this for a family member, even if they were in real need and it seemed the only solution. You absolutely should not do this preposterous favor for your landlord, with whom you have only a business relationship and who it sounds like you don't really even like.
Also you should politely insist that he give you 24 hours' notice, as required by law, before entering your apartment in the future. That kind of barging in could become an intimidation tactic, and you should make it clear that you know your rights.
posted by Scientist at 2:54 PM on September 1, 2013 [11 favorites]
It's sad that he's tired of waiting, but he still has to comply with the law, which means a *minimum* 30 days' notice. Call your tenant's organization first thing Tuesday (or check their website, since most seem to have the basics of what's legal and what's not online). You do not have to panic and you do not have sleep in the street. Let him know that you know what the law is, and that you are prepared to call in the lawyers. (He doesn't have to know that you may not be that prepared! Act as if you are.
posted by rtha at 3:14 PM on September 1, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by rtha at 3:14 PM on September 1, 2013 [1 favorite]
Seems as if the preceding advice is right on--You could offer him the alternative of paying you to leave--all costs of rental, storage and inconvenience. I am not recommending this but sometimes when you give people a choice they pick the one that is least disruptive. We will be staying until.... as previously agreed and consistent with the law or you can advance us a payment of $......... to cover all temporary moving, living and inconvenience costs. Advance payment and no moving until it is in hand. Hope it comes out positive for you.
posted by rmhsinc at 3:47 PM on September 1, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by rmhsinc at 3:47 PM on September 1, 2013 [1 favorite]
FWIW, we just went through a similar situation, where we were "holdover" tenants. We stayed and nothing happened. Some words back and forth. We actually left a week early and hired carpet cleaners and a cleaning service to make it extra clean.
His caregiver's problem is not your problem: deal with him. Stop panicking. Just go back and say, "too bad, we had an agreement and we will be out by this date. If you want to push us, we'll get a lawyer but would rather keep this less expensive for all concerned."
Maybe the other person is pushing him and has a grasp on him, who knows? It's really not your problem. Your problem is the uncomfortable feeling that comes with confronting someone who you know is strange and has weird boundary issues. Just do it, and put a note on his door if necessary.
"Dear Strange Landlord, as we discussed on XX date, we will be out by 10/15. Please stop asking us to leave before 10/15 or we will be forced to take legal action. I would be very sorry if our relationship had to go that way, but am prepared to get a lawyer if you want to keep this up. In the meantime, please don't come into our place when we are not home, as my lawyer said that is illegal entry (and I am sure you can understand how that invades our privacy). I hope we can remain on good terms until we leave, but your caregiver's housing situation is really none of our concern. It's been great living here and we like you a lot; hope we can work this out without involving lawyers. Sincerely, Stewie."
But in reality, there's not much he can do, legally, unless you've set the place on fire or set up a meth lab. I am not a lawyer so take it with a grain of salt. Just confront him back!!! It's not like he can come in there and toss you out on a whim.
posted by Marie Mon Dieu at 4:29 PM on September 1, 2013 [2 favorites]
His caregiver's problem is not your problem: deal with him. Stop panicking. Just go back and say, "too bad, we had an agreement and we will be out by this date. If you want to push us, we'll get a lawyer but would rather keep this less expensive for all concerned."
Maybe the other person is pushing him and has a grasp on him, who knows? It's really not your problem. Your problem is the uncomfortable feeling that comes with confronting someone who you know is strange and has weird boundary issues. Just do it, and put a note on his door if necessary.
"Dear Strange Landlord, as we discussed on XX date, we will be out by 10/15. Please stop asking us to leave before 10/15 or we will be forced to take legal action. I would be very sorry if our relationship had to go that way, but am prepared to get a lawyer if you want to keep this up. In the meantime, please don't come into our place when we are not home, as my lawyer said that is illegal entry (and I am sure you can understand how that invades our privacy). I hope we can remain on good terms until we leave, but your caregiver's housing situation is really none of our concern. It's been great living here and we like you a lot; hope we can work this out without involving lawyers. Sincerely, Stewie."
But in reality, there's not much he can do, legally, unless you've set the place on fire or set up a meth lab. I am not a lawyer so take it with a grain of salt. Just confront him back!!! It's not like he can come in there and toss you out on a whim.
posted by Marie Mon Dieu at 4:29 PM on September 1, 2013 [2 favorites]
Also, if this landlord has no respect for the law or your privacy, I'd be making sure he didn't lock me out after the 10th or move my belongings to a dumpster.
I'm not sure HOW I'd do that, but just something to think about.
posted by ApathyGirl at 4:31 PM on September 1, 2013 [2 favorites]
I'm not sure HOW I'd do that, but just something to think about.
posted by ApathyGirl at 4:31 PM on September 1, 2013 [2 favorites]
The law is entirely on your side here, relax.
I'm going to tell you EXACTLY what to do to enforce your rights (former los angeles landlord and property manager here.)
- Number one, you will notify your landlord IN A LETTER that as per your prior agreement on X date (which was at least 30 days prior to 9/15/13 - right??) AND in accordance with state law XYZ (you can find the correct reg to cite on the CA.gov website) you will be vacating on 9/15/2013. State in the letter you are avaible on 9/15/13 at X time to do a walk-thru on the property. (walk-thru after movers, so he can't claim "hidden" damage later.) Do ask him in the letter to confirm by 9/10 the walk-thru appointment with you.
- In the letter, please cite the reg that covers 24hr notice before entry and request that he follow this law until your lease ends. State this in writing so the landlord understands we're following the law from here on out.
- Include your forwarding address in the letter and ask that the deposit plus receipts for any repairs be sent there within 21 days of 9/15/2013, as per California State Law blah blah (find the correct cite on the CA.gov website.)
- To keep things friendly, I would hand him the letter you're also sending, explaining NICELY that you clarified your rights by calling the State Housing Dept. Again, the number is on the CA.gov website and I highly highly recommend you confirm everything I'm telling you with them. Make sure you provide landlord the number so he can call, too.
- Mail a copy of the letter Tuesday morning via certified mail.
----
Technically, that's the end of it. However, you will have further steps to take because weird guy is weird....
- You will keep a copy of your lease and a copy of the letter on you at all times in case you have to show them to a police officer or a locksmith. Don't catastrophize! This is a "just in case" step you need to take, just in case.
- You really really should put cheap $10 alarms from the hardware store on any doors. The alarms are made by GE & install on the door jambs via adhesive - so easy to remove and you can take them with you on your move. They beep pretty loudly when you set them. Landlord and caretaker, if close by enough, should hear you set them, just to put them on notice your property is yours.
AND.... That's it. You're on the right side of the law here, so there's nothing legally he can do to you to move you out before the 15th.
- Now. What's up with your deposit?
I advise you take copious pics during the walk-thru and get him to sign off on whatever the verdict is at the time of the walk-thru. You'll know what's damaged at that time, but not the cost of the repair. He'll need to provide you formal receipts for any deductions he makes, so he won't know the final cost until the work is done. Again, he has 21 days to return your deposit.
You can write all of this up now, enjoy your holiday tomorrow, and confirm with the state's helpline on Tuesday morning before mailing/delivering the letter.
I wish you the best and hope weird guy straightens up. Good luck with your move!!
posted by jbenben at 4:48 PM on September 1, 2013 [7 favorites]
I'm going to tell you EXACTLY what to do to enforce your rights (former los angeles landlord and property manager here.)
- Number one, you will notify your landlord IN A LETTER that as per your prior agreement on X date (which was at least 30 days prior to 9/15/13 - right??) AND in accordance with state law XYZ (you can find the correct reg to cite on the CA.gov website) you will be vacating on 9/15/2013. State in the letter you are avaible on 9/15/13 at X time to do a walk-thru on the property. (walk-thru after movers, so he can't claim "hidden" damage later.) Do ask him in the letter to confirm by 9/10 the walk-thru appointment with you.
- In the letter, please cite the reg that covers 24hr notice before entry and request that he follow this law until your lease ends. State this in writing so the landlord understands we're following the law from here on out.
- Include your forwarding address in the letter and ask that the deposit plus receipts for any repairs be sent there within 21 days of 9/15/2013, as per California State Law blah blah (find the correct cite on the CA.gov website.)
- To keep things friendly, I would hand him the letter you're also sending, explaining NICELY that you clarified your rights by calling the State Housing Dept. Again, the number is on the CA.gov website and I highly highly recommend you confirm everything I'm telling you with them. Make sure you provide landlord the number so he can call, too.
- Mail a copy of the letter Tuesday morning via certified mail.
----
Technically, that's the end of it. However, you will have further steps to take because weird guy is weird....
- You will keep a copy of your lease and a copy of the letter on you at all times in case you have to show them to a police officer or a locksmith. Don't catastrophize! This is a "just in case" step you need to take, just in case.
- You really really should put cheap $10 alarms from the hardware store on any doors. The alarms are made by GE & install on the door jambs via adhesive - so easy to remove and you can take them with you on your move. They beep pretty loudly when you set them. Landlord and caretaker, if close by enough, should hear you set them, just to put them on notice your property is yours.
AND.... That's it. You're on the right side of the law here, so there's nothing legally he can do to you to move you out before the 15th.
- Now. What's up with your deposit?
I advise you take copious pics during the walk-thru and get him to sign off on whatever the verdict is at the time of the walk-thru. You'll know what's damaged at that time, but not the cost of the repair. He'll need to provide you formal receipts for any deductions he makes, so he won't know the final cost until the work is done. Again, he has 21 days to return your deposit.
You can write all of this up now, enjoy your holiday tomorrow, and confirm with the state's helpline on Tuesday morning before mailing/delivering the letter.
I wish you the best and hope weird guy straightens up. Good luck with your move!!
posted by jbenben at 4:48 PM on September 1, 2013 [7 favorites]
Someone just notified me your move out date is 10/15 - still not a problem!!!
Your lease legally becomes month-to-month and you do not have to sign a new lease under CA law.
He'd have to do ALL the legal steps necessary to terminate your lease legally (30 days notice, in writing, etc.) in order to get you out, at worst, by October 3rd.
That said, your prior notice and agreement likely trumps his new decision to terminate before October 15th, that's why I want you to document the agreement in writing with him ASAP.
Write that letter today.
Call the state on Tuesday morning, but seriously, I'm 99.9% sure you're fine.
Sorry I got the dates wrong. My advice is essentially the same.
Good luck!
posted by jbenben at 5:06 PM on September 1, 2013
Your lease legally becomes month-to-month and you do not have to sign a new lease under CA law.
He'd have to do ALL the legal steps necessary to terminate your lease legally (30 days notice, in writing, etc.) in order to get you out, at worst, by October 3rd.
That said, your prior notice and agreement likely trumps his new decision to terminate before October 15th, that's why I want you to document the agreement in writing with him ASAP.
Write that letter today.
Call the state on Tuesday morning, but seriously, I'm 99.9% sure you're fine.
Sorry I got the dates wrong. My advice is essentially the same.
Good luck!
posted by jbenben at 5:06 PM on September 1, 2013
Response by poster: Our main concern is on reading the CA law pertaining to tenants, it looks like it only becomes month-to-month IF the landlord accepts our rent check for September (so far, he hasn't - our typical pattern has been to drop it off on the 1st and when we tried to do this today he refused to accept it). If the landlord doesn't accept the rent check, the lease doesn't turn to mont-to-month.
And we just figured out the lease ended yesterday (it was 36 months beginning 9/1/10, so ended 8/31/13).
We're planning to stay the course- he has asked Mr. Stewie only over to have a "man to man" talk about the lease tomorrow and if he says something other than he's willing to do 10/15, we will send September rent and a letter as suggested above via certified mail on Tuesday.
It will be a VERY uncomfortable month. Everyone upthread is right, we should have established boundaries better a lot earlier - but we loved the location and thought landlord's intrusiveness was annoying but harmless.
posted by stewiethegreat at 5:34 PM on September 1, 2013
And we just figured out the lease ended yesterday (it was 36 months beginning 9/1/10, so ended 8/31/13).
We're planning to stay the course- he has asked Mr. Stewie only over to have a "man to man" talk about the lease tomorrow and if he says something other than he's willing to do 10/15, we will send September rent and a letter as suggested above via certified mail on Tuesday.
It will be a VERY uncomfortable month. Everyone upthread is right, we should have established boundaries better a lot earlier - but we loved the location and thought landlord's intrusiveness was annoying but harmless.
posted by stewiethegreat at 5:34 PM on September 1, 2013
Even if he refuses to accept rent, you still can't be thrown out with a week's notice.
(Just one more suggestion: If he refuses the certified letter, hire a process server to deliver it - their delivery will stand up in court and he can't claim he didn't get it).
posted by zug at 6:05 PM on September 1, 2013 [2 favorites]
(Just one more suggestion: If he refuses the certified letter, hire a process server to deliver it - their delivery will stand up in court and he can't claim he didn't get it).
posted by zug at 6:05 PM on September 1, 2013 [2 favorites]
If you're the ones in the wrong about the length of the lease, it does change things. In some jurisdictions, like mine, barring special circumstances the landlord doesn't have to give any notice at all for you to vacate on your lease ending date, and could begin eviction proceedings the next day. His notice may have been part of what is required to start those proceedings.
IANYL, TINLA, etc.
It's still worth it to check with local legal support.
But you may be in the situation of either pleading for a favor to stay longer, possibly combined with offering a rent supplement, or else taking your chances on how long the eviction process takes in your jurisdiction (something a local legal clinic could help you out with).
posted by Salamandrous at 6:14 PM on September 1, 2013
IANYL, TINLA, etc.
It's still worth it to check with local legal support.
But you may be in the situation of either pleading for a favor to stay longer, possibly combined with offering a rent supplement, or else taking your chances on how long the eviction process takes in your jurisdiction (something a local legal clinic could help you out with).
posted by Salamandrous at 6:14 PM on September 1, 2013
Response by poster: We were never in the wrong about the length of lease, salamandrous. We had a verbal agreement that we would not leave until 10/15, which our landlord is now conveniently forgetting in order to try to get us to leave on 9/10.
The only thing I corrected was that the lease ended on 8/31, not 9/1.
posted by stewiethegreat at 6:28 PM on September 1, 2013
The only thing I corrected was that the lease ended on 8/31, not 9/1.
posted by stewiethegreat at 6:28 PM on September 1, 2013
jbenben and spacemanstix are right, please don't panic!
Take a look through the handbook spacemanstix link to, and on Tuesday you can even call the California Dept. of Consumer Affairs and they will be very helpful if you have any questions.
I want to stress that California's Landlord/Tenant laws are unambiguous, so don't let the landlord or the caregiver try to explain away anything. Any exceptions to the law will probably be in the handbook but will definitely be in the actual Ca. Civil Code.
posted by Room 641-A at 7:09 PM on September 1, 2013
Take a look through the handbook spacemanstix link to, and on Tuesday you can even call the California Dept. of Consumer Affairs and they will be very helpful if you have any questions.
I want to stress that California's Landlord/Tenant laws are unambiguous, so don't let the landlord or the caregiver try to explain away anything. Any exceptions to the law will probably be in the handbook but will definitely be in the actual Ca. Civil Code.
posted by Room 641-A at 7:09 PM on September 1, 2013
Hey! Even if the landlord does not accept your rent, well, I've never heard of that being a legal way to end a tenancy in Los Angeles/California.
It would be SOOOOO easy to get rid of unwanted tenants here otherwise, and I've never ever ever seem this tactic work, or even tried. Seriously.
The only possible hiccups are (a) it's a private residence not an apartment building, and (b) HE ALREADY AGREED TO EXTEND YOUR LEASE.
I can't stress how important that last point is under state law.
Please do call the phone numbers Room-641A helpfully provided to you.
I know for a FACT that even without a valid lease, it would take him a minimum of 2 months to lawfully evict you and have a sheriff come out and restore the property to him. His first step would be to post a 3 Day Notice to Perform (advising you to leave) on your door.
No 3 Day Notice? Then he's not following the law and he's out of luck.
If he wants to pay for your hotel and any other inconveniences to get you out sooner - let him. Don't offer a number or limit your expenses in the conversation, but do say if he'll return your deposit in full minus reasonable repairs PLUS pay your expenses, you'll move early.
This offer alone will shut him down, I'm guessing.
DO send him a letter or email (admissible in court!) detailing the conversation and the offer right after the meeting. Document EVERYTHING.
It's not that you're going to court, yo. This guy is a sloppy businessman, and you do not have to pay the penalty for his sloppiness because the law says so.
So don't you worry.
(PS - this isn't personal and this guy was never your friend. The only person who will feel awkward for the next month+ will be him, not you.
This is business. Just follow the law, stay calm and professional, and follow the law.)
Good luck & please update the thread or Memail if you have more questions. I know lawyers, but honestly, you won't need one.
Good luck.
posted by jbenben at 9:29 PM on September 1, 2013 [1 favorite]
It would be SOOOOO easy to get rid of unwanted tenants here otherwise, and I've never ever ever seem this tactic work, or even tried. Seriously.
The only possible hiccups are (a) it's a private residence not an apartment building, and (b) HE ALREADY AGREED TO EXTEND YOUR LEASE.
I can't stress how important that last point is under state law.
Please do call the phone numbers Room-641A helpfully provided to you.
I know for a FACT that even without a valid lease, it would take him a minimum of 2 months to lawfully evict you and have a sheriff come out and restore the property to him. His first step would be to post a 3 Day Notice to Perform (advising you to leave) on your door.
No 3 Day Notice? Then he's not following the law and he's out of luck.
If he wants to pay for your hotel and any other inconveniences to get you out sooner - let him. Don't offer a number or limit your expenses in the conversation, but do say if he'll return your deposit in full minus reasonable repairs PLUS pay your expenses, you'll move early.
This offer alone will shut him down, I'm guessing.
DO send him a letter or email (admissible in court!) detailing the conversation and the offer right after the meeting. Document EVERYTHING.
It's not that you're going to court, yo. This guy is a sloppy businessman, and you do not have to pay the penalty for his sloppiness because the law says so.
So don't you worry.
(PS - this isn't personal and this guy was never your friend. The only person who will feel awkward for the next month+ will be him, not you.
This is business. Just follow the law, stay calm and professional, and follow the law.)
Good luck & please update the thread or Memail if you have more questions. I know lawyers, but honestly, you won't need one.
Good luck.
posted by jbenben at 9:29 PM on September 1, 2013 [1 favorite]
Shoot!
What I meant is that not accepting your check is a step towards ending tenancy, but it does NOT equal automatic eviction.
This is especially true in this case, where a previous agreement exists.
posted by jbenben at 9:37 PM on September 1, 2013
What I meant is that not accepting your check is a step towards ending tenancy, but it does NOT equal automatic eviction.
This is especially true in this case, where a previous agreement exists.
posted by jbenben at 9:37 PM on September 1, 2013
OK, so this might not be ideal advice, but I have to say that from what I understand in MA (where my in-laws own property), evicting people is a total PITA, and California law generally favors tenants even more than MA, so chances are even if he tried to evict you, it might take more than a month for him to arrange it.
Not saying you need to run out the clock that way - sounds like he didn't give you enough notice anyway - but worst case scenario it's not like he'll be able to throw you out easily.
posted by 0x006DB0 at 10:50 PM on September 1, 2013 [1 favorite]
Not saying you need to run out the clock that way - sounds like he didn't give you enough notice anyway - but worst case scenario it's not like he'll be able to throw you out easily.
posted by 0x006DB0 at 10:50 PM on September 1, 2013 [1 favorite]
One last time, I think you should take that very very good advice to include the check in the certified letter you will send NO MATTER WHAT IS VERBALLY AGREED TO AT TOMORROW'S MEETING, AND INCLUDE LANGUAGE THAT REFERS TO THE CHECK IN THE CERTIFIED LETTER.
Specifically, I've only ever been advised by a lawyer in an eviction situation to refuse a tenant's rent check after multiple 3 Day Notices have been ignored by the tenant, and these situations were MUCH different from having an agreed verbal contract, like, usually months of non-payment and disruptive behavior (extreme documentable mental illness) and the like.
I've successfully evicted "nuisance tenants" in LA under such circumstances to the utter surprise of our local landlord association - that's how tough it is to refuse checks and legally evict a tenant.
Your situation comes nowhere close.
I'm super sorry you're dealing with this weirdo, but you're going to come out of this just fine.
posted by jbenben at 11:38 PM on September 1, 2013
Specifically, I've only ever been advised by a lawyer in an eviction situation to refuse a tenant's rent check after multiple 3 Day Notices have been ignored by the tenant, and these situations were MUCH different from having an agreed verbal contract, like, usually months of non-payment and disruptive behavior (extreme documentable mental illness) and the like.
I've successfully evicted "nuisance tenants" in LA under such circumstances to the utter surprise of our local landlord association - that's how tough it is to refuse checks and legally evict a tenant.
Your situation comes nowhere close.
I'm super sorry you're dealing with this weirdo, but you're going to come out of this just fine.
posted by jbenben at 11:38 PM on September 1, 2013
Response by poster: PS - this isn't personal and this guy was never your friend.
The tough and sad thing for us about this is while this is indisputably true, in the three years we've lived here Mr. Stewie likely saved landlord's life twice (broken hip and sprained ankle, each time Mr. Stewie found him lying on our private, secluded driveway where he would have lain for many hours, and drove him to the hospital himself. We send him birthday and Xmas cards (he doesn't have family) and Mr. Stewie and he often have long conversations about engineering and aerospace. We've driven him to a couple of doctor's appointments and picked up groceries for him once or twice when he was ill. He doesn't think of us as friends (and doesn't actually have many friends) but has relied on our freely volunteered help on a regular basis.
So - I'm trying not to take this personally, but it still feels bad.
Check and letter ready to go in the mail (via certified mail) tomorrow, copies of our lease are in our glove compartment. Thanks all.
posted by stewiethegreat at 3:16 PM on September 2, 2013 [1 favorite]
The tough and sad thing for us about this is while this is indisputably true, in the three years we've lived here Mr. Stewie likely saved landlord's life twice (broken hip and sprained ankle, each time Mr. Stewie found him lying on our private, secluded driveway where he would have lain for many hours, and drove him to the hospital himself. We send him birthday and Xmas cards (he doesn't have family) and Mr. Stewie and he often have long conversations about engineering and aerospace. We've driven him to a couple of doctor's appointments and picked up groceries for him once or twice when he was ill. He doesn't think of us as friends (and doesn't actually have many friends) but has relied on our freely volunteered help on a regular basis.
So - I'm trying not to take this personally, but it still feels bad.
Check and letter ready to go in the mail (via certified mail) tomorrow, copies of our lease are in our glove compartment. Thanks all.
posted by stewiethegreat at 3:16 PM on September 2, 2013 [1 favorite]
Oh my gosh. I'm so so sorry upon reading your update. Truly.
Long, long story short - I was in a very similar situation about 5 years ago.
This hurts because you're decent human beings, and I think the urge to be awesome to others is natural for you.
Being business-like without emotional dramaz (which he's looking to incite - more on that later) towards your landlord IS being awesome for him in this scenario.
Keep his side of the street clean for him by sticking to the letter of the law as you exit. That's actually a nice thing for you to do for him. Likely, he's already racked up a heap of bad karma on his journey on Earth, don't make it easy for him to add more via you guys.
If I had to guess, all these shenanigans on his part are an emotional and familiar way for him to deal with (a) the loss of his relationship with you (b) his lack of control, and loss over control of you guys, and (c) his attempt to beholden your replacement to him by engineering an outrageous favor at your expense.
None if this negates the fact that you genuinely care for this guy. In fact, let your care for him inform your actions such that you prevent him from being a shitty landlord to you.
----
Sorry if I've been a bit shouty in this thread. I hate to see people get pushed around for lack of technical knowledge you would not have to worry about knowing if your landlord knew the law concerning the business he profits from. Chaps my hide, to be honest, because providing and administering safe and sane housing for others is a sacred calling in my book.
That said, this guy is obviously living a sad life, and well.... Damn. What a shame for him.
Please update or Memail. I'm keen to help all three of you walk away from this experience whole. This totally possible!
Again, good luck!
posted by jbenben at 8:59 PM on September 2, 2013 [1 favorite]
Long, long story short - I was in a very similar situation about 5 years ago.
This hurts because you're decent human beings, and I think the urge to be awesome to others is natural for you.
Being business-like without emotional dramaz (which he's looking to incite - more on that later) towards your landlord IS being awesome for him in this scenario.
Keep his side of the street clean for him by sticking to the letter of the law as you exit. That's actually a nice thing for you to do for him. Likely, he's already racked up a heap of bad karma on his journey on Earth, don't make it easy for him to add more via you guys.
If I had to guess, all these shenanigans on his part are an emotional and familiar way for him to deal with (a) the loss of his relationship with you (b) his lack of control, and loss over control of you guys, and (c) his attempt to beholden your replacement to him by engineering an outrageous favor at your expense.
None if this negates the fact that you genuinely care for this guy. In fact, let your care for him inform your actions such that you prevent him from being a shitty landlord to you.
----
Sorry if I've been a bit shouty in this thread. I hate to see people get pushed around for lack of technical knowledge you would not have to worry about knowing if your landlord knew the law concerning the business he profits from. Chaps my hide, to be honest, because providing and administering safe and sane housing for others is a sacred calling in my book.
That said, this guy is obviously living a sad life, and well.... Damn. What a shame for him.
Please update or Memail. I'm keen to help all three of you walk away from this experience whole. This totally possible!
Again, good luck!
posted by jbenben at 8:59 PM on September 2, 2013 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Hi there, so we ended up bribing the landlord and caregiver (offered them each $250 cash plus some other stuff we would have sold on CL to allow us to stay, in addition to the rent). We know that we could have probably brazened it out and expected CA state law to side with us - but with an irrational, unpredictable elderly landlord with automatic weapons in his house, we just decided to go the easy route.
Thanks for everyone's advice.
posted by stewiethegreat at 6:41 AM on October 21, 2013
Thanks for everyone's advice.
posted by stewiethegreat at 6:41 AM on October 21, 2013
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by SpacemanStix at 2:17 PM on September 1, 2013 [6 favorites]