Younger brother being a jerk or I am overly sensitive?
July 28, 2013 7:52 PM Subscribe
Younger brother being a jerk or I am overly sensitive? We are four siblings. Two sisters. Two brothers. All married. With children. I am the oldest sibling.
The behaviour of my younger brother the past few years are really irked me. I have refrained from confronting him about it because I'd rather be a good guy and not rock the boat. We also work together in a family business.
I have noticed he would go out of his way to avoid my wife for example. He would go out of his way to show he doesn't care about manners that go hand in hand being part of a close knit family such as saying goodbye or saying hi or asking how someone's doing.
My wife is older than he is but she has to go out and find him and say hi to him or bye to him. Even that, he brushes her off with just a hi or a bye. He doesn't even call her by name. Mind you he does all this with a smile.
Am I being overly sensitive?
Should I mind whether he likes my wife? Should my wife bother calling him out? We are a very close knit family and we basically see each other everyday. I see him everyday regardless cause I work with him. Even at work I see him trying to subvert my authority. I don't want to rock the boat because its a family business. He might pack up and go then it's all on me.
I have noticed he would go out of his way to avoid my wife for example. He would go out of his way to show he doesn't care about manners that go hand in hand being part of a close knit family such as saying goodbye or saying hi or asking how someone's doing.
My wife is older than he is but she has to go out and find him and say hi to him or bye to him. Even that, he brushes her off with just a hi or a bye. He doesn't even call her by name. Mind you he does all this with a smile.
Am I being overly sensitive?
Should I mind whether he likes my wife? Should my wife bother calling him out? We are a very close knit family and we basically see each other everyday. I see him everyday regardless cause I work with him. Even at work I see him trying to subvert my authority. I don't want to rock the boat because its a family business. He might pack up and go then it's all on me.
Just ask. Maybe she did something to piss him off and he's avoided ever since.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:08 PM on July 28, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:08 PM on July 28, 2013 [1 favorite]
I sometimes find that the polite social behaviors like formal greetings and long goodbyes tend to go out the window when you see someone every day. It's like, seriously, we will see each other again tomorrow. No need to make a big scene. I guess it's not optimal to take social shortcuts that way, but I don't see it as being a "jerk" thing, either.
The phrase "subvert my authority" seems weird, to me. Do you heavily outrank him at work? Does that bleed into your relationship as siblings? Are you close or far apart in age? Were you close as children? I kind of feel like adult siblings shouldn't have concepts of "authority" with each other. I'm the oldest of four siblings, and I treat my youngest brother as a fellow adult, not as someone who needs to know his place, or else. I can see workplace stuff getting in the way of that, if you're the company president and he's the office grunt, but even then, I just think that's really weird. Like, even if you outrank him on the corporate ladder, he's your brother. Cut the dude some slack.
posted by Sara C. at 8:09 PM on July 28, 2013 [9 favorites]
The phrase "subvert my authority" seems weird, to me. Do you heavily outrank him at work? Does that bleed into your relationship as siblings? Are you close or far apart in age? Were you close as children? I kind of feel like adult siblings shouldn't have concepts of "authority" with each other. I'm the oldest of four siblings, and I treat my youngest brother as a fellow adult, not as someone who needs to know his place, or else. I can see workplace stuff getting in the way of that, if you're the company president and he's the office grunt, but even then, I just think that's really weird. Like, even if you outrank him on the corporate ladder, he's your brother. Cut the dude some slack.
posted by Sara C. at 8:09 PM on July 28, 2013 [9 favorites]
From what you've told us, we can't possibly determine whether he is being rude or if you're being unreasonable.
Some people say hello and goodbye. Some people do not. Maybe he and your wife had a fight and they're doing their best to avoid involving you in their drama. Maybe she has done something he felt was awful and he's trying to keep the peace by just avoiding her. Maybe he had a girlfriend with your wife's name and saying her name brings back a flood of awful memories. We really can't possibly know what is going on. But it honestly doesn't sound like this treatment is so egregious that it absolutely demands some intervention at this point. At most, it sounds annoying. Or thoughtless. Or sub-optimal.
It is difficult to be friends with coworkers. It is even more difficult to be family with coworkers. It is tough. It is only going to be made more difficult if you can't figure out how to discuss this stuff in a productive way. Frankly, if I worked with my family members, we'd have to have a therapist on staff as well. And it would be a completely reasonable expenditure. If you're concerned about how you're working together, deal with that issue separately. Use a lot of "I statements." eg. "Brother, I feel undermined when you do X. I know you and I both have the same ultimate goals - the strength of the family business. Can we work together to find a way for you to X in a way that I will be more receptive to?" Deal with it the same way you would if your coworker was not related to you. If it doesn't get better or actually gets worse, you escalate to someone superior. Hopefully your family business is organized sufficiently that there *is* someone superior to one or both of you who can address the issue.
tl;dr separate the personal stuff from the business stuff; deal with the business stuff independently; take a deep breath about the personal stuff cause it could be just about anything and unless it escalates it is just not serious enough to pursue.
posted by jph at 8:13 PM on July 28, 2013
Some people say hello and goodbye. Some people do not. Maybe he and your wife had a fight and they're doing their best to avoid involving you in their drama. Maybe she has done something he felt was awful and he's trying to keep the peace by just avoiding her. Maybe he had a girlfriend with your wife's name and saying her name brings back a flood of awful memories. We really can't possibly know what is going on. But it honestly doesn't sound like this treatment is so egregious that it absolutely demands some intervention at this point. At most, it sounds annoying. Or thoughtless. Or sub-optimal.
It is difficult to be friends with coworkers. It is even more difficult to be family with coworkers. It is tough. It is only going to be made more difficult if you can't figure out how to discuss this stuff in a productive way. Frankly, if I worked with my family members, we'd have to have a therapist on staff as well. And it would be a completely reasonable expenditure. If you're concerned about how you're working together, deal with that issue separately. Use a lot of "I statements." eg. "Brother, I feel undermined when you do X. I know you and I both have the same ultimate goals - the strength of the family business. Can we work together to find a way for you to X in a way that I will be more receptive to?" Deal with it the same way you would if your coworker was not related to you. If it doesn't get better or actually gets worse, you escalate to someone superior. Hopefully your family business is organized sufficiently that there *is* someone superior to one or both of you who can address the issue.
tl;dr separate the personal stuff from the business stuff; deal with the business stuff independently; take a deep breath about the personal stuff cause it could be just about anything and unless it escalates it is just not serious enough to pursue.
posted by jph at 8:13 PM on July 28, 2013
Maybe he finds her attractive, and so he's avoiding her.
posted by tomboko at 9:37 PM on July 28, 2013 [4 favorites]
posted by tomboko at 9:37 PM on July 28, 2013 [4 favorites]
My wife is older than he is but she has to go out and find him and say hi to him or bye to him.
This is a very strange phrasing, to me. Do you think that he ought to be seeking her out for this sort of thing because she's his elder? He sounds like he's being pleasant enough to her but not favoring her with any particular closeness. You make it sound like your wife is just an example--are you expecting a certain amount of deference because you're older? You say you're tight-knit, but just because you want the family to be tight-knit doesn't mean he does, too.
None of this, anyway, sounds like stuff to be 'really irked' about. Given that I can't imagine why you'd pull punches about his behavior when you're posting anonymously, I'd fall on the side of your having somewhat unreasonable expectations of what adult sibling relationships are like.
posted by Sequence at 9:54 PM on July 28, 2013 [5 favorites]
This is a very strange phrasing, to me. Do you think that he ought to be seeking her out for this sort of thing because she's his elder? He sounds like he's being pleasant enough to her but not favoring her with any particular closeness. You make it sound like your wife is just an example--are you expecting a certain amount of deference because you're older? You say you're tight-knit, but just because you want the family to be tight-knit doesn't mean he does, too.
None of this, anyway, sounds like stuff to be 'really irked' about. Given that I can't imagine why you'd pull punches about his behavior when you're posting anonymously, I'd fall on the side of your having somewhat unreasonable expectations of what adult sibling relationships are like.
posted by Sequence at 9:54 PM on July 28, 2013 [5 favorites]
It might help if you identify the culture you're operating within.
posted by prefpara at 11:42 PM on July 28, 2013 [9 favorites]
posted by prefpara at 11:42 PM on July 28, 2013 [9 favorites]
I have noticed he would go out of his way to avoid my wife for example.
It might be helpful to have other examples of his behaviour. You also mention subverting your authority at work, but in what way? Avoiding your wife and subverting your authority don't seem like a pattern of behaviour, unless you mean that he is avoiding your wife to upset you, in some way.
How is he with your other siblings, for example? Or other people in general? Is it a problem just between you and he, or is he generally not very sociable?
Just in terms of avoiding your wife by not saying hi or asking how she's doing, etc, I can identify a little in terms of my SOs brother. He avoids eye contact with me, I will hand him a drink and he wont say thank you, and he would never really ask what's up with me even though I'll ask him. However, I have a very strong suspicion, for lots of reasons, that he may have Aspergers syndrome, and he generally has problems with social cues. He's a really sweet guy and I know its not personal, so I don't have a problem with it (most of the time), but its not confined to me. For example if he is out with my SO and a group of people, he has to be reminded to buy a round of drinks - things which other people just 'get', he doesn't, so he can come across as rude when he doesn't mean to be. So if your brother's behaviour is consistent with lots of people it may be something inherent in his personality, rather than an attempt to slight anyone. I would second just asking him, in case he has no idea he is doing anything out of the ordinary.
posted by billiebee at 2:48 AM on July 29, 2013
It might be helpful to have other examples of his behaviour. You also mention subverting your authority at work, but in what way? Avoiding your wife and subverting your authority don't seem like a pattern of behaviour, unless you mean that he is avoiding your wife to upset you, in some way.
How is he with your other siblings, for example? Or other people in general? Is it a problem just between you and he, or is he generally not very sociable?
Just in terms of avoiding your wife by not saying hi or asking how she's doing, etc, I can identify a little in terms of my SOs brother. He avoids eye contact with me, I will hand him a drink and he wont say thank you, and he would never really ask what's up with me even though I'll ask him. However, I have a very strong suspicion, for lots of reasons, that he may have Aspergers syndrome, and he generally has problems with social cues. He's a really sweet guy and I know its not personal, so I don't have a problem with it (most of the time), but its not confined to me. For example if he is out with my SO and a group of people, he has to be reminded to buy a round of drinks - things which other people just 'get', he doesn't, so he can come across as rude when he doesn't mean to be. So if your brother's behaviour is consistent with lots of people it may be something inherent in his personality, rather than an attempt to slight anyone. I would second just asking him, in case he has no idea he is doing anything out of the ordinary.
posted by billiebee at 2:48 AM on July 29, 2013
There's not much to go on in this description, but you haven't really given any examples that seem like he's being a jerk, and some that you do give seem innocuous to me: saying "Hi" to your wife instead of "Hi, [wife's name]" for example is a subtle distinction, and not one that I'd likely even notice. Based just on what you describe it doesn't sound like he dislikes your wife or is avoiding her... does he treat her differently from the way he treats your other siblings' spouses, for example?
It's also not clear how the "subvert my authority" thing fits in, if at all; or how he's doing that, or whether he even is doing that or you're being overly sensitive there too. (It's a family business; are you actually in charge of your brother? That is, do you have authority or are you just assuming that as the elder brother you should be in charge? If the business is structured such that you really are his manager, how is he "subverting" you? There's no way for us to tell whether he's behaving inappropriately or you're just having normal disagreements over how the business should be run.)
I certainly wouldn't call him out over this. If you are going to make a thing about it, make sure you have much more concrete and substantial descriptions of what you'd like him to change than you've given us -- frankly if I were in his position and you confronted me with this, I'd be completely mystified as to what you even want.
posted by ook at 5:47 AM on July 29, 2013
It's also not clear how the "subvert my authority" thing fits in, if at all; or how he's doing that, or whether he even is doing that or you're being overly sensitive there too. (It's a family business; are you actually in charge of your brother? That is, do you have authority or are you just assuming that as the elder brother you should be in charge? If the business is structured such that you really are his manager, how is he "subverting" you? There's no way for us to tell whether he's behaving inappropriately or you're just having normal disagreements over how the business should be run.)
I certainly wouldn't call him out over this. If you are going to make a thing about it, make sure you have much more concrete and substantial descriptions of what you'd like him to change than you've given us -- frankly if I were in his position and you confronted me with this, I'd be completely mystified as to what you even want.
posted by ook at 5:47 AM on July 29, 2013
she has to go out and find him and say hi to him or bye to him.
I find this behavior strange, at least the way it's been phrased. She does not have to do this.
He doesn't even call her by name.
I would find it really...intense if someone I saw every day always called me by my name unless it was to get my attention.
posted by Room 641-A at 6:04 AM on July 29, 2013 [4 favorites]
I find this behavior strange, at least the way it's been phrased. She does not have to do this.
He doesn't even call her by name.
I would find it really...intense if someone I saw every day always called me by my name unless it was to get my attention.
posted by Room 641-A at 6:04 AM on July 29, 2013 [4 favorites]
There's a person in my social circle that I don't care for much, but she always makes a point of talking to every. single. person. at any gathering, no matter how large. I'm sure she's a perfectly nice person, but she just rubs me the wrong way - perhaps it's this way with your brother and your wife? As another poster said, it seems a bit intense the way you've phrased this.
Here's an idea - tell your wife *not* to go out of her way to say hello a few times. You might find your brother will eventually get around to talking to her. Or not. If he's being actively rude, I don't see any reason to force an interaction either way.
Also, you might consider talking to your brother about this directly. Could be awkward, but he's family, so ... just suck it up and do it. (Note: I have 3 brothers, usually I find it's best to just confront things head on. Subtlety doesn't seem to work well in my family.)
posted by jzb at 9:36 AM on July 29, 2013
Here's an idea - tell your wife *not* to go out of her way to say hello a few times. You might find your brother will eventually get around to talking to her. Or not. If he's being actively rude, I don't see any reason to force an interaction either way.
Also, you might consider talking to your brother about this directly. Could be awkward, but he's family, so ... just suck it up and do it. (Note: I have 3 brothers, usually I find it's best to just confront things head on. Subtlety doesn't seem to work well in my family.)
posted by jzb at 9:36 AM on July 29, 2013
I am wondering if there might be some cultural context here that we don't know about.
OP, are you from a traditional culture? My mother and her family immigrated to Canada from a traditional Asian country and my sibling, cousins and I were all taught that in order to show respect, younger people had to "call" (this is the word, probably transliterated from their language) their elders. This meant the routine was if you went to a family gathering, you had to seek out all of your elders and say hello to them, using the proper honorific. "Your elders," by the way, didn't just mean grandparents or aunts and uncles, but also any siblings and cousins who were older than you, even if just by a few years. Not to do so would be a sign of disrespect, and a pattern of this behaviour would be very disrespectful.
Now that my mom's family is (much) more assimilated to North American culture, it's less formal, but there is still an expectation that younger family members will make a point of greeting their elders and, yes, calling them by name. It's just a much more subtle expectation by now.
Does this sound like the expectations you are thinking of, OP?
posted by hurdy gurdy girl at 11:59 AM on July 29, 2013
OP, are you from a traditional culture? My mother and her family immigrated to Canada from a traditional Asian country and my sibling, cousins and I were all taught that in order to show respect, younger people had to "call" (this is the word, probably transliterated from their language) their elders. This meant the routine was if you went to a family gathering, you had to seek out all of your elders and say hello to them, using the proper honorific. "Your elders," by the way, didn't just mean grandparents or aunts and uncles, but also any siblings and cousins who were older than you, even if just by a few years. Not to do so would be a sign of disrespect, and a pattern of this behaviour would be very disrespectful.
Now that my mom's family is (much) more assimilated to North American culture, it's less formal, but there is still an expectation that younger family members will make a point of greeting their elders and, yes, calling them by name. It's just a much more subtle expectation by now.
Does this sound like the expectations you are thinking of, OP?
posted by hurdy gurdy girl at 11:59 AM on July 29, 2013
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posted by eugenen at 8:02 PM on July 28, 2013