What should I be careful of when buying a car from a friend?
June 18, 2013 9:31 PM Subscribe
A co-worker/friend is selling me his old car as he's upgraded to a newer model. What are things I should be aware of and get checked out early so I don't accidentally buy a lemon and ruin the friendship?
It's an 18 year old car and other than the air conditioning needing fixing is in reasonable working order. I need to get a roadworthy before the title's transferred, but as far as I know that's a general rule and doesn't indicate he's worried about it failing or anything. I suspect the registration is due soon too.
He's selling it to me for significantly under market value (it's valued at around 6000 dollars and is selling it to me for 1500) which has my girlfriend suspicious but I have no reason to believe this is due to anything but niceness on his part.
It's an 18 year old car and other than the air conditioning needing fixing is in reasonable working order. I need to get a roadworthy before the title's transferred, but as far as I know that's a general rule and doesn't indicate he's worried about it failing or anything. I suspect the registration is due soon too.
He's selling it to me for significantly under market value (it's valued at around 6000 dollars and is selling it to me for 1500) which has my girlfriend suspicious but I have no reason to believe this is due to anything but niceness on his part.
How many miles does it have? Has it been used for highway driving or short trips around town? Both? City driving?
That it is 18 years old and valued at $6,000 makes me think it is a mid-higher end car. Any needed repairs and routine maintenance will be more expensive than on an average car.
Hopefully your friend has all the records from repairs/maintenance.
Definitely have a mechanic perform a compression check on the engine.
posted by mlis at 9:56 PM on June 18, 2013 [1 favorite]
That it is 18 years old and valued at $6,000 makes me think it is a mid-higher end car. Any needed repairs and routine maintenance will be more expensive than on an average car.
Hopefully your friend has all the records from repairs/maintenance.
Definitely have a mechanic perform a compression check on the engine.
posted by mlis at 9:56 PM on June 18, 2013 [1 favorite]
Either a 1994 or 95? Careful of that A/C- it might require R12 refrigerant, which is not used anymore. Conversion of one that requires that stuff can be done, but doesn't work too well and can be expensive.
posted by drhydro at 9:56 PM on June 18, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by drhydro at 9:56 PM on June 18, 2013 [1 favorite]
I think you have to go into it with the expectation that if something breaks, it probably wasn't something your friend planned on or knew about. Odds are something will need repair in the near future anyway if it is that old. You should budget some of that sub-market-value savings for potential repairs and then if something comes up you don't harbor ill feelings.
posted by thorny at 9:57 PM on June 18, 2013 [4 favorites]
posted by thorny at 9:57 PM on June 18, 2013 [4 favorites]
Awareness:
What is the make, model and mileage of the car?
Does it have any known issues/recalls/bugaboos? Have they been addressed?
When was the last time it was serviced?
Was it serviced/ oilchanged regularly?
Does your friend have the complete maintenance record of it, under his ownership, or even before?
If it's a manual, when was the clutch replaced or repaired?
If automatic or manual, when were the belts replaced?
ACs can run expensive, and oh, you're in Austriala, so probably needful, so if that's the path to roadworthiness, take it with a grain of whatever it costs to fix.
In my experience, you sell a good, but not-worth-the-trade-in car way under appraisal to someone who you know will
a. be able to use it, regardless of looks.
b. not care about the trade-in value.
c. look after it into its dotage
d. Be able to let go, easily, when the grim car reaper comes knocking.
If your friend shepherded this car through 18 years of good service, they're giving you a deal to look after it while it totters into totalled. Just remember that at this stage, any major repair is close to totaling the car. (going by trade-in/auction value, not blue book).
Without knowing the specs, I'm not willing to speculate what else you should know, but if the car checks out on a base level, and doesn't have more than 500 dollars of preemptive work needed, for 1500, I'd do it.
posted by Cold Lurkey at 9:58 PM on June 18, 2013 [1 favorite]
What is the make, model and mileage of the car?
Does it have any known issues/recalls/bugaboos? Have they been addressed?
When was the last time it was serviced?
Was it serviced/ oilchanged regularly?
Does your friend have the complete maintenance record of it, under his ownership, or even before?
If it's a manual, when was the clutch replaced or repaired?
If automatic or manual, when were the belts replaced?
ACs can run expensive, and oh, you're in Austriala, so probably needful, so if that's the path to roadworthiness, take it with a grain of whatever it costs to fix.
In my experience, you sell a good, but not-worth-the-trade-in car way under appraisal to someone who you know will
a. be able to use it, regardless of looks.
b. not care about the trade-in value.
c. look after it into its dotage
d. Be able to let go, easily, when the grim car reaper comes knocking.
If your friend shepherded this car through 18 years of good service, they're giving you a deal to look after it while it totters into totalled. Just remember that at this stage, any major repair is close to totaling the car. (going by trade-in/auction value, not blue book).
Without knowing the specs, I'm not willing to speculate what else you should know, but if the car checks out on a base level, and doesn't have more than 500 dollars of preemptive work needed, for 1500, I'd do it.
posted by Cold Lurkey at 9:58 PM on June 18, 2013 [1 favorite]
My main thing about doing business with friends is don't.
But then if you do don't let it become acrimonious. An 18 year old car is going to have all kinds of problems. Many that the seller is going to be unaware of or only vaguely aware of, and shit will go wrong with it at some point. If you bought it off unknown seller on the internet you'd only give so much feedback to the seller. Don't let any problematic tales about the car you are buying seem like you resent the friend/coworker's role in selling it to you.
If its a friendly gesture it is a friendly gesture. Foreseeing the complications of your owning this older car is likely beyond your friend's capabilities or yours.
posted by logonym at 10:07 PM on June 18, 2013 [1 favorite]
But then if you do don't let it become acrimonious. An 18 year old car is going to have all kinds of problems. Many that the seller is going to be unaware of or only vaguely aware of, and shit will go wrong with it at some point. If you bought it off unknown seller on the internet you'd only give so much feedback to the seller. Don't let any problematic tales about the car you are buying seem like you resent the friend/coworker's role in selling it to you.
If its a friendly gesture it is a friendly gesture. Foreseeing the complications of your owning this older car is likely beyond your friend's capabilities or yours.
posted by logonym at 10:07 PM on June 18, 2013 [1 favorite]
The wonderful words I recently learned when I bought my used car was "pre-purchase inspection". Many auto shops will do this. It costs about $100 and they go through a very thorough checklist. So, you are not buying your friend's car. You are considering buying it, but before you commit you get the inspection done.
posted by PercussivePaul at 10:27 PM on June 18, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by PercussivePaul at 10:27 PM on June 18, 2013 [2 favorites]
I am with your girlfriend - people do not sell cars worth $6000 for $1500 just out of 'niceness'.
Some questions to ask yourself:
Who determined it was worth $6000? Is that $6000 as is? or $6000 if in showroom condition.
How will you feel if the car turns out to be a lemon or require $3000 worth of work to get roadworthied? Will you be able to remain on good terms with your friend/colleague? Would you expect your f/c to return your money and take the car back? Can you afford those repairs? Can you afford to lose your $1500?
How would your f/c feel if the car required $000s of work? Would they be mortified or say 'buyer beware!' (this answer is important - it determines how 'nice' your f/c is).
Do you want that particular make/model/year of car?
Is it a european or japanese car? The parts cost difference is huge.
Do you know how to fix cars? Change the oil? Change the air filter?
Would your friend be willing to sell it for $1500 AND a RWC? If the buyer really is nice, this shouldn't be an issue. If they hem and haw over providing the RWC themselves, then it suggests there are greater issues at hand than the aircon. Your friend has not had to get an RWC for years on that car, so how do they know what condition it is really in?
if you can answer all these questions in a positive way, the best place to take it to is the RACV (in Victoria) or its other state equivalent. An inspection will cost around $225, cheaper if you are an RACV member. (Membership is worth every penny, especially with older cars.)
If you can't answer these questions positively, decline the offer and check out some other car purchase options.
posted by Kerasia at 11:05 PM on June 18, 2013 [4 favorites]
Some questions to ask yourself:
Who determined it was worth $6000? Is that $6000 as is? or $6000 if in showroom condition.
How will you feel if the car turns out to be a lemon or require $3000 worth of work to get roadworthied? Will you be able to remain on good terms with your friend/colleague? Would you expect your f/c to return your money and take the car back? Can you afford those repairs? Can you afford to lose your $1500?
How would your f/c feel if the car required $000s of work? Would they be mortified or say 'buyer beware!' (this answer is important - it determines how 'nice' your f/c is).
Do you want that particular make/model/year of car?
Is it a european or japanese car? The parts cost difference is huge.
Do you know how to fix cars? Change the oil? Change the air filter?
Would your friend be willing to sell it for $1500 AND a RWC? If the buyer really is nice, this shouldn't be an issue. If they hem and haw over providing the RWC themselves, then it suggests there are greater issues at hand than the aircon. Your friend has not had to get an RWC for years on that car, so how do they know what condition it is really in?
if you can answer all these questions in a positive way, the best place to take it to is the RACV (in Victoria) or its other state equivalent. An inspection will cost around $225, cheaper if you are an RACV member. (Membership is worth every penny, especially with older cars.)
If you can't answer these questions positively, decline the offer and check out some other car purchase options.
posted by Kerasia at 11:05 PM on June 18, 2013 [4 favorites]
Are you really going to ask a question about a car and not list the make or model? Come on, yo.
I am no longer on speaking terms with the prick that sold me my first car, so your mileage may vary
(see what I did there?)
Memail me if you want a longer tale of naiveity and deceit than I feel like typing on my cell phone at 2 am.
posted by oceanjesse at 11:10 PM on June 18, 2013 [2 favorites]
I am no longer on speaking terms with the prick that sold me my first car, so your mileage may vary
(see what I did there?)
Memail me if you want a longer tale of naiveity and deceit than I feel like typing on my cell phone at 2 am.
posted by oceanjesse at 11:10 PM on June 18, 2013 [2 favorites]
Q: What should you be careful of when buying _______ from a friend?
A: THE FRIENDSHIP.
If you buy the car, you need to be prepared to take the risk that comes with the combination of friendship and money. It could turn out to be a great deal, or it could turn out to be a complete loss of $1,500 and a friendship. Be careful.
posted by 2oh1 at 11:33 PM on June 18, 2013 [1 favorite]
A: THE FRIENDSHIP.
If you buy the car, you need to be prepared to take the risk that comes with the combination of friendship and money. It could turn out to be a great deal, or it could turn out to be a complete loss of $1,500 and a friendship. Be careful.
posted by 2oh1 at 11:33 PM on June 18, 2013 [1 favorite]
A friend let me have her old car for the cost of me paying the mechanic bill for a rebuilt engine that she had had done and then decided she couldn't afford. I got a $3000 car for half that. then it failed its roadworthy (at my mechanic's-a different guy) and I put another $400 in to fix that. Paid rego and insurance and two weeks later it broke down and needed a new gearbox and clutch.
Remember two different mechanics had worked on it within the past month and still hadn't seen that coming.
I was annoyed with my friend, even though I knew it wasn't fair tobe, and she was really embarrass ed and started avoiding me even though I tried not to let on that I was annoyed. We aren't friends anymore.
I wouldn't buy a car from a friend again.
posted by lollusc at 11:35 PM on June 18, 2013 [1 favorite]
Remember two different mechanics had worked on it within the past month and still hadn't seen that coming.
I was annoyed with my friend, even though I knew it wasn't fair tobe, and she was really embarrass ed and started avoiding me even though I tried not to let on that I was annoyed. We aren't friends anymore.
I wouldn't buy a car from a friend again.
posted by lollusc at 11:35 PM on June 18, 2013 [1 favorite]
Choose: either a friend or a "bargain" old car. It is unlikely that you can have both.
If you are a gearhead and will enjoy making the constant repairs as the aged parts break down, that is a whole different proposition. Paint, tires, and battery are the easy fixes.
posted by Cranberry at 11:44 PM on June 18, 2013 [2 favorites]
If you are a gearhead and will enjoy making the constant repairs as the aged parts break down, that is a whole different proposition. Paint, tires, and battery are the easy fixes.
posted by Cranberry at 11:44 PM on June 18, 2013 [2 favorites]
I gave away a Kombi to a friend for nothing, feeling that in all good conscience I could not ask for money for a vehicle so badly abused.
We're still friends. Just.
posted by flabdablet at 1:32 AM on June 19, 2013 [2 favorites]
We're still friends. Just.
posted by flabdablet at 1:32 AM on June 19, 2013 [2 favorites]
I feel it is likely that your friend really is giving you a deal, out of niceness. I feel it is also likely that this car will be a strain on your friendship. You don't have to assume bad faith for this to turn into a wedge.
The danger here isn't what it will take to keep an 18 year old car (that's actually the easily known quantity in all this), it's about managing expectations. On both sides.
If you do this, you need to go into it with open eyes. Without knowing more about the car in question, any 18 year old car represents a certain level of risk. By all means do a pre-purchase inspection. This will give you a baseline for what to expect. But are you prepared to NOT have bad feelings when it breaks down after a year and the cost to repair is twice what you paid your friend?
Basically I think this can be a great deal, if your expectations are set properly. If you think of this as getting a $4500 discount (and confirm this mechanically), that significantly changes the ownership equation. Now you're set up to either have a $1500 car that lasted you a few years before it broke down, or a built in $4500 allowance to fix what will inevitably go wrong.
posted by danny the boy at 2:16 AM on June 19, 2013
The danger here isn't what it will take to keep an 18 year old car (that's actually the easily known quantity in all this), it's about managing expectations. On both sides.
If you do this, you need to go into it with open eyes. Without knowing more about the car in question, any 18 year old car represents a certain level of risk. By all means do a pre-purchase inspection. This will give you a baseline for what to expect. But are you prepared to NOT have bad feelings when it breaks down after a year and the cost to repair is twice what you paid your friend?
Basically I think this can be a great deal, if your expectations are set properly. If you think of this as getting a $4500 discount (and confirm this mechanically), that significantly changes the ownership equation. Now you're set up to either have a $1500 car that lasted you a few years before it broke down, or a built in $4500 allowance to fix what will inevitably go wrong.
posted by danny the boy at 2:16 AM on June 19, 2013
* You mention you need to get it roadworthy before you get the title transferred..... this is backwards! If you buy this or any other car, from anybody, do NOT put one penny into maintenance or repairs until AFTER the title is in your own name.
* Before you buy it, take it to your own mechanic --- not your friend's mechanic --- and pay for a full check of the thing. This is, in fact, the most basic rule of buying ANY used car, from anybody.
* WHY do you think it is actually worth $6000? Have you checked the Kelley Blue Book for it, or is that just what your friend (also known in this case as the salesperson!) says its worth?
* If you do decide to buy this car: when things go wrong with it, as they will with any car, do NOT blame your friend. If you had a mechanic check it over ahead of time, then you knew what you were getting into. If you DIDN'T have a mechanic check it, then it's your own fault for not getting that check before buying.
posted by easily confused at 3:03 AM on June 19, 2013 [1 favorite]
* Before you buy it, take it to your own mechanic --- not your friend's mechanic --- and pay for a full check of the thing. This is, in fact, the most basic rule of buying ANY used car, from anybody.
* WHY do you think it is actually worth $6000? Have you checked the Kelley Blue Book for it, or is that just what your friend (also known in this case as the salesperson!) says its worth?
* If you do decide to buy this car: when things go wrong with it, as they will with any car, do NOT blame your friend. If you had a mechanic check it over ahead of time, then you knew what you were getting into. If you DIDN'T have a mechanic check it, then it's your own fault for not getting that check before buying.
posted by easily confused at 3:03 AM on June 19, 2013 [1 favorite]
What are things I should be aware of and get checked out early so I don't accidentally buy a lemon and ruin the friendship?
You should be aware that the car may not be a lemon today, and may turn into one the day after you buy it. You should be aware that this is not your friend's fault, and that you have no recourse. You should not let a $1500 car ruin a friendship.
posted by DarlingBri at 3:06 AM on June 19, 2013 [1 favorite]
You should be aware that the car may not be a lemon today, and may turn into one the day after you buy it. You should be aware that this is not your friend's fault, and that you have no recourse. You should not let a $1500 car ruin a friendship.
posted by DarlingBri at 3:06 AM on June 19, 2013 [1 favorite]
The risk to the friendship depends to some extent on your own financial circumstances. With any car of that age, you have to expect some repair bills. At 18 years old, some parts may be difficult to find, and like mlis said up top, a $6k value for a car this old suggests it was an expensive car to begin with, which will also tend to inflate the cost of repairs. Can you comfortably afford the more-frequent-than-average and more-expensive-than-average bills that you are considering signing up for? Six months down the line, if a garage tells you it needs $900 in brake work because half the caliper seals are leaking and the fittings are so rusted they're not sure if they can get the lines apart without breaking something, will your response be 'Ah, the joys of an older car,' or 'Oh shit, now what am I going to do?'
If it really is worth $6k then you've got a margin of safety because you could sell it for more than you paid for it even if it did develop a significant mechanical problem. But like others above, I encourage you to be really careful about how you establish the car's market value. What matters is the price *you* could reasonably hope to sell it for without much trouble. If you're saying $6k because you've seen sticker prices of $5995 on similar cars on small used car lots, then you're probably overestimating the car's real value by two or three thousand. To give you a sense of how wildly variable the prices of older cars can be, I just bought my 13 year-old car for $2K, which was a great deal. I got that deal because I knew the owner and $2k was what a dealer offered for the car as a trade-in on a new car. If I wanted to, I could easily advertise online and sell it for at least $3k, and very possibly several hundred more than that. But I have seen the exact same model, same color, same options, with even more miles on the odometer, advertised for $6995 on slimy buy here/pay here lots targeting customers with little money and bad credit. Even the slimy used car dealer is unlikely to actually get $6995 for it; they've priced it to facilitate negotiation with someone who's short on cash, i.e. they can knock it down to $5500 so the buyer feels like they got a bargain while the dealer still rakes in a huge profit. The highest prices on older cars have more to do with the special circumstances of the desperate buyers that some used car lots are set up to take advantage of, than with the actual value of the car itself.
posted by jon1270 at 4:02 AM on June 19, 2013
If it really is worth $6k then you've got a margin of safety because you could sell it for more than you paid for it even if it did develop a significant mechanical problem. But like others above, I encourage you to be really careful about how you establish the car's market value. What matters is the price *you* could reasonably hope to sell it for without much trouble. If you're saying $6k because you've seen sticker prices of $5995 on similar cars on small used car lots, then you're probably overestimating the car's real value by two or three thousand. To give you a sense of how wildly variable the prices of older cars can be, I just bought my 13 year-old car for $2K, which was a great deal. I got that deal because I knew the owner and $2k was what a dealer offered for the car as a trade-in on a new car. If I wanted to, I could easily advertise online and sell it for at least $3k, and very possibly several hundred more than that. But I have seen the exact same model, same color, same options, with even more miles on the odometer, advertised for $6995 on slimy buy here/pay here lots targeting customers with little money and bad credit. Even the slimy used car dealer is unlikely to actually get $6995 for it; they've priced it to facilitate negotiation with someone who's short on cash, i.e. they can knock it down to $5500 so the buyer feels like they got a bargain while the dealer still rakes in a huge profit. The highest prices on older cars have more to do with the special circumstances of the desperate buyers that some used car lots are set up to take advantage of, than with the actual value of the car itself.
posted by jon1270 at 4:02 AM on June 19, 2013
Nthing take it to the dealer and have them run a complete diagnostic on it. This will tell you what the car is doing today, and what might break down tomorrow. The dealer will have insight into issues with that make and model, and all of the recall bulletins.
Check KBB and Edmunds to get the skinny on what that car is worth (don't take anyone's word for it.)
Once it gets the thumbs up from the mechanic, then you can buy it, but with the expectation that things gonna break and wear out and be a hassle. Because that's what an 18 year old, $1,500 car is.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 5:34 AM on June 19, 2013
Check KBB and Edmunds to get the skinny on what that car is worth (don't take anyone's word for it.)
Once it gets the thumbs up from the mechanic, then you can buy it, but with the expectation that things gonna break and wear out and be a hassle. Because that's what an 18 year old, $1,500 car is.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 5:34 AM on June 19, 2013
I can't think of many 18 year old cars that are worth $6000.
How not to ruin the friendship? Don't let it. You either trust your friend to tell you the truth as he knows it about the car, or you don't. If the friend legitimately had no trouble with the engine and it melts down the day after you buy it, will you think that he pulled a fast one on you? Or will you believe that it's just bad luck?
I prefer doing business like this with friends, because I know more of the history of the thing I'm buying. You know better how your friend maintained the car than some used car lot. The only thing I do differently with friends/family when it comes to buying things is that I do not haggle, ever. They name their price, and I either agree or disagree. That way, buyers or sellers remorse is on them.
posted by gjc at 6:37 AM on June 19, 2013
How not to ruin the friendship? Don't let it. You either trust your friend to tell you the truth as he knows it about the car, or you don't. If the friend legitimately had no trouble with the engine and it melts down the day after you buy it, will you think that he pulled a fast one on you? Or will you believe that it's just bad luck?
I prefer doing business like this with friends, because I know more of the history of the thing I'm buying. You know better how your friend maintained the car than some used car lot. The only thing I do differently with friends/family when it comes to buying things is that I do not haggle, ever. They name their price, and I either agree or disagree. That way, buyers or sellers remorse is on them.
posted by gjc at 6:37 AM on June 19, 2013
First: have a professional mechanic inspect it.
Second: remember that this will only ruin the friendship if you (a) discover he's been lying to you about the condition in order to make more money or (b) the car fails in any number of ways that old cars fail that cannot be predicted, and you believe that means he's been lying to you about the condition in order to make more money. It is impossible to know which.
So if you go into this accepting that things WILL break down, because the car is old, and get the mechanic's inspection and trust it over anything he's telling you (unless he's telling you things are even worse), then hopefully you're all set.
posted by davejay at 10:53 AM on June 19, 2013
Second: remember that this will only ruin the friendship if you (a) discover he's been lying to you about the condition in order to make more money or (b) the car fails in any number of ways that old cars fail that cannot be predicted, and you believe that means he's been lying to you about the condition in order to make more money. It is impossible to know which.
So if you go into this accepting that things WILL break down, because the car is old, and get the mechanic's inspection and trust it over anything he's telling you (unless he's telling you things are even worse), then hopefully you're all set.
posted by davejay at 10:53 AM on June 19, 2013
Response by poster: A few people have pointed out I should have provided the make/model:
It's a 1998 Toyota Vienta.
Thanks for all the advise! My plan right now is to take it to a mechanic for a checkup, then a roadworthy if there aren't any major faults and then purchase, with low expectations of durability.
I talked to my friend who's happy for me to take the car through those before paying so that sounds like a fair amount of good will on his part.
posted by Silentgoldfish at 8:36 PM on June 22, 2013
It's a 1998 Toyota Vienta.
Thanks for all the advise! My plan right now is to take it to a mechanic for a checkup, then a roadworthy if there aren't any major faults and then purchase, with low expectations of durability.
I talked to my friend who's happy for me to take the car through those before paying so that sounds like a fair amount of good will on his part.
posted by Silentgoldfish at 8:36 PM on June 22, 2013
In the U.S. that would be called the Camry. Even being a few years newer than originally described, it would never be worth $6k here, even if it were the fanciest version with all the options and in near-perfect condition. I don't know anything about the Australian car market, but I doubt the difference is that huge. That said, there's a lot of room between $1500 and $6k, and the Camry is typically a very good car if reasonable care has been taken of it. This might be a perfectly good deal even if it's not 'instant $4500 profit' good.
posted by jon1270 at 3:05 AM on June 23, 2013
posted by jon1270 at 3:05 AM on June 23, 2013
Your friend SHOULD be totally willing to have you get this car checked out before you buy it: that's one of the basic rules of buying any used car --- if any seller does NOT let you have the mechanic of your choice check a car before you pay them one cent, then walk away!
posted by easily confused at 6:07 AM on June 24, 2013
posted by easily confused at 6:07 AM on June 24, 2013
This thread is closed to new comments.
Ask your friend when the last time the timing belt was changed, when the oil has been changed, and when the suspension was done last. If your friend has receipts for service, even better.
posted by thebigdeadwaltz at 9:43 PM on June 18, 2013 [4 favorites]