Can you explain Swedish relationship /sex culture to an American?
June 11, 2013 7:20 AM Subscribe
As an American woman, I understand we have different expectations regarding sex and dating/new relationships than what generally happens in Sweden. My experiences with Swedish men have been a bit confusing, and I wonder if that may be part of a cultural communication disconnect.
I love the culture of equality in Sweden, and as a strong American woman I respect it. But even as someone who naturally is more comfortable making the first move, being open with men, it has been drilled into me from experiences with American guys that to make the first move, or express feelings, etc. too soon seems to push the guys away (in general), so I've held myself back a lot (with varying success). Swedish women: can you enlighten me on your attitude about sex, what is considered generally normal or expected when you meet a guy, and how you handle yourself in casual sex / friends with benefits situations? It seems that, in general, many Swedes have a healthy attitude about sex, and I'm hoping you can impart some wisdom. If you tend to have a lot of casual relationships or sexual relationships with friends, how do you manage this without confusion and hurt feelings? I really think Swedish folk can have something positive to teach us Americans about how we view sex, and am very curious to hear some first-hand experiences.
I love the culture of equality in Sweden, and as a strong American woman I respect it. But even as someone who naturally is more comfortable making the first move, being open with men, it has been drilled into me from experiences with American guys that to make the first move, or express feelings, etc. too soon seems to push the guys away (in general), so I've held myself back a lot (with varying success). Swedish women: can you enlighten me on your attitude about sex, what is considered generally normal or expected when you meet a guy, and how you handle yourself in casual sex / friends with benefits situations? It seems that, in general, many Swedes have a healthy attitude about sex, and I'm hoping you can impart some wisdom. If you tend to have a lot of casual relationships or sexual relationships with friends, how do you manage this without confusion and hurt feelings? I really think Swedish folk can have something positive to teach us Americans about how we view sex, and am very curious to hear some first-hand experiences.
Response by poster: To clarify: I understand my question was a sweeping generalization and that there are many variations between individuals and groups of friends. With each person I meet they will have a different perspective and personal background. With my limited experience with Swedish folk, I've become fascinated and curious to see the general cultural differences, which is why I was speaking in generalities.
Apologies in advance if this question makes sweeping generalizations - it's not my intention to make assumptions about one person based on where they are from, just curious how we tend to vary by region/country.
posted by zettoo at 7:52 AM on June 11, 2013
Apologies in advance if this question makes sweeping generalizations - it's not my intention to make assumptions about one person based on where they are from, just curious how we tend to vary by region/country.
posted by zettoo at 7:52 AM on June 11, 2013
Maybe Stieg Larsson is not the best window on average relations between the sexes in Sweden, or indeed any country?
This light-hearted article by an American woman might help with your confusion about making the first move:
A "fika" is a Swedish word for an ambiguous meeting that may or may not be a date, or better explained as a non-date, or a date that is pretending-not-to-be-a-date.
It is also worth mentioning that one can also have a fika with a friend, colleague, family member, or neighbor. Hence the ambiguity of the whole affair.
During this "fika" Swedish non-date, things are a little stilted and awkward as both parties pretend that nothing happened last Saturday night, and politely and awkwardly ask questions about the other person, usually beginning with "Where do you live?," descending into a discussion about the difficulty and frustration of the Stockholm housing market, and complaining that you have had to move seven times in the course of six months.
posted by stuck on an island at 8:47 AM on June 11, 2013 [7 favorites]
This light-hearted article by an American woman might help with your confusion about making the first move:
A "fika" is a Swedish word for an ambiguous meeting that may or may not be a date, or better explained as a non-date, or a date that is pretending-not-to-be-a-date.
It is also worth mentioning that one can also have a fika with a friend, colleague, family member, or neighbor. Hence the ambiguity of the whole affair.
During this "fika" Swedish non-date, things are a little stilted and awkward as both parties pretend that nothing happened last Saturday night, and politely and awkwardly ask questions about the other person, usually beginning with "Where do you live?," descending into a discussion about the difficulty and frustration of the Stockholm housing market, and complaining that you have had to move seven times in the course of six months.
posted by stuck on an island at 8:47 AM on June 11, 2013 [7 favorites]
I haven't been to Sweden, but there's a Scandinavian coffee place in NYC called Fika, so I'm inferring fika=meeting for coffee there.
posted by brujita at 9:37 AM on June 11, 2013
posted by brujita at 9:37 AM on June 11, 2013
Fika is meeting for coffee. And the article stuck on an island links is social realism. That is exactly how one does it. Not very complicated.
posted by mumimor at 10:30 AM on June 11, 2013
posted by mumimor at 10:30 AM on June 11, 2013
I am an American woman who lived in Sweden for 6 months (study abroad, so a university situation) and found mingling with the locals a bit confusing at first as well. Here's my observations (mostly around courting/bars/clubs):
1. Yes, you have to be much more forward than in America. My male American friends would regularly be like, "whoa, that girl just slapped my ass" in a bar/club. This was pretty normal. Being more verbally forward too (just telling a guy he was cute) worked pretty well too. The thing that does not work, is standing around waiting for guys to approach you, a la USA. Additionally, if a guy says "do you want a drink?" he will most likely go up to the bar with you, and then buy himself a drink. You are expected to buy your own. This was mind blowing to me at first (why did he even ask, if he wasn't going to buy one for me??!?) but I polled my male Swedish friends and acquaintances and a full 0% of them said they would ever buy a girl a drink. Their reason: "if I buy something for her, there might be an expectation that I want something in return, and I don't want to impose that sense of obligation." (this is where my American jaw dropped on the floor).
2. The not-paying thing also applies to dates and/or fika (as described above). You'll get used to it.
3. Besides the date/bar/club courtship piece and who-approaches-who, I didn't notice any differences with dudes. They were equally willing to go back to my/their apartment to hook up as Americans. They were equally likely to be awkward and never speak again, or to booty call you later, as Americans. They were equally likely to be interested in you if they were a male friend of yours, as Americans (although, following from #1, they were much less pushy/aggressive/manipulative about it).
4. I noticed Swedes/Europeans in general were a bit more condom-averse than Americans, but I don't think I would have a statistical sample size here.
5. This is also probably also not super statistical, but I noticed a pointed lack of jealousy/resentment over past flings/relationships. Like, someone you hooked up with probably wouldn't care much when they hear about you and someone new. Almost all Swedes I met were still good friends with their exes, though said they wouldn't want to date again, could give me all the details about their current job, troubles getting a foreign visa, etc etc. This is when I realized in America, when the topic of one's ex comes up (e.g. "Oh have you ever seen Robyn perform?" "Yeah, just once, it was with my ex") you try to halt the conversation and steer it in another direction out of courtesy to the friend, sometimes resulting in an awkward pause or silence. If I said "Oh sorry, didn't mean to bring up the ex!" to a Swedish friend they would be mostly confused, like, why not?
OBVIOUSLY ymmv with all of these which were my own experiences/observations. However if I could give one piece of advice it would be to be about 3x more forward than you would be in the US.
posted by mokudekiru at 10:36 AM on June 11, 2013 [14 favorites]
1. Yes, you have to be much more forward than in America. My male American friends would regularly be like, "whoa, that girl just slapped my ass" in a bar/club. This was pretty normal. Being more verbally forward too (just telling a guy he was cute) worked pretty well too. The thing that does not work, is standing around waiting for guys to approach you, a la USA. Additionally, if a guy says "do you want a drink?" he will most likely go up to the bar with you, and then buy himself a drink. You are expected to buy your own. This was mind blowing to me at first (why did he even ask, if he wasn't going to buy one for me??!?) but I polled my male Swedish friends and acquaintances and a full 0% of them said they would ever buy a girl a drink. Their reason: "if I buy something for her, there might be an expectation that I want something in return, and I don't want to impose that sense of obligation." (this is where my American jaw dropped on the floor).
2. The not-paying thing also applies to dates and/or fika (as described above). You'll get used to it.
3. Besides the date/bar/club courtship piece and who-approaches-who, I didn't notice any differences with dudes. They were equally willing to go back to my/their apartment to hook up as Americans. They were equally likely to be awkward and never speak again, or to booty call you later, as Americans. They were equally likely to be interested in you if they were a male friend of yours, as Americans (although, following from #1, they were much less pushy/aggressive/manipulative about it).
4. I noticed Swedes/Europeans in general were a bit more condom-averse than Americans, but I don't think I would have a statistical sample size here.
5. This is also probably also not super statistical, but I noticed a pointed lack of jealousy/resentment over past flings/relationships. Like, someone you hooked up with probably wouldn't care much when they hear about you and someone new. Almost all Swedes I met were still good friends with their exes, though said they wouldn't want to date again, could give me all the details about their current job, troubles getting a foreign visa, etc etc. This is when I realized in America, when the topic of one's ex comes up (e.g. "Oh have you ever seen Robyn perform?" "Yeah, just once, it was with my ex") you try to halt the conversation and steer it in another direction out of courtesy to the friend, sometimes resulting in an awkward pause or silence. If I said "Oh sorry, didn't mean to bring up the ex!" to a Swedish friend they would be mostly confused, like, why not?
OBVIOUSLY ymmv with all of these which were my own experiences/observations. However if I could give one piece of advice it would be to be about 3x more forward than you would be in the US.
posted by mokudekiru at 10:36 AM on June 11, 2013 [14 favorites]
I studied abroad in Denmark, and obviously everything that is true for Danes isn't going to be true for Swedes, but I do think there's some cultural overlap. Here's what I gathered from Danish friends and at an orientation spiel for cultural dos and don'ts.
1. My Danish friend used to start compulsively giggling at the mention of "dating" or "going on a date" because the idea was so foreign to him besides in American media. He ended up romantically involved with women by spending a lot of time with the ones he liked and I guess making a move when the time came.
2. In Danish dance clubs, men would stand around (not dancing) until approached by a woman.
3. At my study abroad orientation I was given a heads up that Danes had no conception of "date rape" and found the concept silly and laughable. They said basically that if you go home with a man it's assumed you're doing so because you want to sleep with him. I guess here that's considered rape culture or what have you. But anyway, there's a different set of cultural expectations around that.
Hmm... And Scandinavians seem more candid generally about sex than Americans, in a non-romantic or romantic context.
posted by mermily at 6:17 PM on June 11, 2013 [1 favorite]
1. My Danish friend used to start compulsively giggling at the mention of "dating" or "going on a date" because the idea was so foreign to him besides in American media. He ended up romantically involved with women by spending a lot of time with the ones he liked and I guess making a move when the time came.
2. In Danish dance clubs, men would stand around (not dancing) until approached by a woman.
3. At my study abroad orientation I was given a heads up that Danes had no conception of "date rape" and found the concept silly and laughable. They said basically that if you go home with a man it's assumed you're doing so because you want to sleep with him. I guess here that's considered rape culture or what have you. But anyway, there's a different set of cultural expectations around that.
Hmm... And Scandinavians seem more candid generally about sex than Americans, in a non-romantic or romantic context.
posted by mermily at 6:17 PM on June 11, 2013 [1 favorite]
This is a fun question. As a Swedish man about to move to the US, I'm curious about these differences as well. My understanding of US romantic and sexual culture comes from TV series, movies and to a large extent from AskMe. Based on those sources I get the impression that sex and romance are a bit more structuralized in the US than in Sweden. It's like the US has dissected a lot of relationships, written protocols and manuals, and put names on all the different parts. Some random examples:
* We don't have a tradition of dating, where a man asks a woman out and if the answer is positive, a process begins for these people to assess their mutual romantic interest. stuck on an island's link hits quite close to home. Sex or at least some light makeout often comes ahead of romance, or you start as friends and get closer from there. This isn't as true as it used to be, but the US way of dating (and the word for it) is a recent import and not at all standard.
* Marriage is a lot less of a big deal here and has a certain retro vibe to it, at least for a ceremony with many guests.
* You don't hear people use a lot of relationship-specific terminology. "Love languages" comes to mind, but the concept of "emotional infidelity" also didn't have a name until I read it on this site.
* I once read an AskMe question that began something like this: 'So I've been dating this guy for three months and it's going well, we were intimate by date three and exchanged "I love you":s about two weeks ago, but yesterday he said...'. Maybe that talk about 'exchanging "I love you":s' sounds absurd to everyone? Sorry if I judge your culture unfairly, but this highlights in a funny way the difference I'm trying to get at: It sometimes looks like Americans do romantic bonds by checklist. In Sweden, we fumble in the dark.
I don't know so well how casual and sexual affairs work in the US, I guess they go outside the formalities in any country. You go home with someone from a bar of a party, exchange numbers in the morning and may keep meeting for sex if you're both happy with it and on the same page. The danger-stranger sentiment isn't as strong here and there might be a bit less slut-shaming, which could work in favor of casual sex. On the other hand, there is overall more social awkwardness and higher barriers to interacting with strangers. With few exceptions, alcohol is involved in quantity. It's not considered strange for a woman to take initiatives, and that seems in a way to happen more easily than the other way. There is so much negative associated with men approaching women that it feels like a somewhat creepy thing regardless of how it's done. Regarding who pays: The lack of guidelines leads to awkwardness, and it's the same way with tipping.
An interesting event on the sex scene was "Prata om det" ("Talk about it"), a movement on Twitter a few years ago, following the rape charges against Julian Assange. It started with big-name cultural journalist Johanna Koljonen sharing a very intimate experience of sex that started consensual but where the guy ended up violating her boundaries. She hadn't been sure how to think and feel about it for many years, and wanted to bring sexual grey zones out in the open by telling her story and encouraging others to do the same. Many did, in the roles of both victims and perpetrators, both men and women, straight and gay. The point was to increase the awareness of boundary issues and communication in sexual settings, to make us talk rather than assume or infer the will of our partners. It was excellent and I would have liked to make an FPP of it, but there wasn't so much material available in English.
posted by springload at 10:09 PM on June 16, 2013 [2 favorites]
* We don't have a tradition of dating, where a man asks a woman out and if the answer is positive, a process begins for these people to assess their mutual romantic interest. stuck on an island's link hits quite close to home. Sex or at least some light makeout often comes ahead of romance, or you start as friends and get closer from there. This isn't as true as it used to be, but the US way of dating (and the word for it) is a recent import and not at all standard.
* Marriage is a lot less of a big deal here and has a certain retro vibe to it, at least for a ceremony with many guests.
* You don't hear people use a lot of relationship-specific terminology. "Love languages" comes to mind, but the concept of "emotional infidelity" also didn't have a name until I read it on this site.
* I once read an AskMe question that began something like this: 'So I've been dating this guy for three months and it's going well, we were intimate by date three and exchanged "I love you":s about two weeks ago, but yesterday he said...'. Maybe that talk about 'exchanging "I love you":s' sounds absurd to everyone? Sorry if I judge your culture unfairly, but this highlights in a funny way the difference I'm trying to get at: It sometimes looks like Americans do romantic bonds by checklist. In Sweden, we fumble in the dark.
I don't know so well how casual and sexual affairs work in the US, I guess they go outside the formalities in any country. You go home with someone from a bar of a party, exchange numbers in the morning and may keep meeting for sex if you're both happy with it and on the same page. The danger-stranger sentiment isn't as strong here and there might be a bit less slut-shaming, which could work in favor of casual sex. On the other hand, there is overall more social awkwardness and higher barriers to interacting with strangers. With few exceptions, alcohol is involved in quantity. It's not considered strange for a woman to take initiatives, and that seems in a way to happen more easily than the other way. There is so much negative associated with men approaching women that it feels like a somewhat creepy thing regardless of how it's done. Regarding who pays: The lack of guidelines leads to awkwardness, and it's the same way with tipping.
An interesting event on the sex scene was "Prata om det" ("Talk about it"), a movement on Twitter a few years ago, following the rape charges against Julian Assange. It started with big-name cultural journalist Johanna Koljonen sharing a very intimate experience of sex that started consensual but where the guy ended up violating her boundaries. She hadn't been sure how to think and feel about it for many years, and wanted to bring sexual grey zones out in the open by telling her story and encouraging others to do the same. Many did, in the roles of both victims and perpetrators, both men and women, straight and gay. The point was to increase the awareness of boundary issues and communication in sexual settings, to make us talk rather than assume or infer the will of our partners. It was excellent and I would have liked to make an FPP of it, but there wasn't so much material available in English.
posted by springload at 10:09 PM on June 16, 2013 [2 favorites]
This thread is closed to new comments.
Men are highly individualistic (as the women) in Sweden - many enlightened and some going the other way (esp in some areas). It would be wise to know the background of men you meet. I suggest reading Stieg Larsson and similar, or travel throughout Sweden and get a proper firsthand understanding of Swedish culture.
posted by Kruger5 at 7:38 AM on June 11, 2013 [2 favorites]