Seen but not heard (well not CONSTANTLY)
June 3, 2013 7:53 PM Subscribe
I need help teaching my 4 year old how to not interrupt and how to be silent when necessary.
My son (who turns 4 this month) is an enthusiastic extroverted chatterbox. I am a quiet introvert and sometimes baffled by him. Now, for the most part, I love and find his curiosity about life (read: endless questions) and desire for attention (read: they really did cut the umbilical cord, darling) charming and relatable. I definitely encourage his questions about life, sense of humor, and interest in conversing with me. I try to balance between giving him the attention he needs, the attention he wants, and enforcing time he spends playing alone, with siblings, and knowing he's not *actually* the center of the universe.
However. I CANNOT get him to stay quiet when it's actually necessary. This is the one behavior I haven't figured out how to modify by logic and/or consequences and it's kinda driving me crazy.
I have two problems: him interrupting me (and other adults, but mostly me) and him not being able to "zip his lips" for even a few minutes when I need to answer a phone call or talk to the doctor. When I say he talks constantly, I mean he talks *constantly*. Even just to babble nonsense words. I don't expect children to be mute witnesses to the world but I do expect them to be able to hold their questions for the like three seconds it takes me to order juice for him at a restaurant.
I've given him clear rules, friendly reminders, punished him when he wouldn't behave, rewarded him when he was being good…nothing.
If I try to ignore him when he's interrupting and talking over us = I can't hear anything that's going on, and he has a seemingly endless willingness to repeat himself. (Mommy? Mommy? Mommy? Mommy? x1000).
If I stop to remind him of the rules = he gets the attention he wants, and he ignores the rules anyway.
Rules we've tried: "When the grownups are talking, you need to wait. When we are quiet you may start talking." "If you REALLY need something RIGHT NOW you can say "excuse me" but you must wait for us to say "okay [son]" before you start talking"
"I need you to zip your lips for five minutes here." "Hold a bubble in your mouth until the doctor is done talking!" "Let's play the quiet game!" "If you cannot be quiet so I can hear this person, you are going to sit in time out for the rest of the conversation." "If you can keep your mouth closed until I am off the phone we will then snuggle and read an extra book."
Possibly related: he has seemingly NO idea how to use an inside voice. I ask him to modulate his voice (and do so with my voice as an example, even whispering) to "inside voice" or "quiet voice" all day long. At the park, at the library, doesn't matter. He sounds like Brian Blessed with a loudspeaker. I've even had his hearing checked (although he can hear a candy wrapper whispering open from a mile away) and it's just fine. I don't mean the occasional shout or too-loud excited voice, which I totally understand. His normal dialogue is just TURNED UP.
Again: I don't want to crush his desire to talk to me, get attention, or ask questions. I love talking with him. I just need to teach him how to be silent when it is important. I know he CAN be because he's very well-behaved at gymnastics, but something about being around me just makes him…so…freaking….loud.
I'd really like your opinions and ideas, the more unorthodox the better since I feel like I've tried all the basics. Even "hah I can relate he's now in theatre" or "enjoy it now because my 15 year old speaks in guttural snips" would be encouraging. Thanks mefites!
My son (who turns 4 this month) is an enthusiastic extroverted chatterbox. I am a quiet introvert and sometimes baffled by him. Now, for the most part, I love and find his curiosity about life (read: endless questions) and desire for attention (read: they really did cut the umbilical cord, darling) charming and relatable. I definitely encourage his questions about life, sense of humor, and interest in conversing with me. I try to balance between giving him the attention he needs, the attention he wants, and enforcing time he spends playing alone, with siblings, and knowing he's not *actually* the center of the universe.
However. I CANNOT get him to stay quiet when it's actually necessary. This is the one behavior I haven't figured out how to modify by logic and/or consequences and it's kinda driving me crazy.
I have two problems: him interrupting me (and other adults, but mostly me) and him not being able to "zip his lips" for even a few minutes when I need to answer a phone call or talk to the doctor. When I say he talks constantly, I mean he talks *constantly*. Even just to babble nonsense words. I don't expect children to be mute witnesses to the world but I do expect them to be able to hold their questions for the like three seconds it takes me to order juice for him at a restaurant.
I've given him clear rules, friendly reminders, punished him when he wouldn't behave, rewarded him when he was being good…nothing.
If I try to ignore him when he's interrupting and talking over us = I can't hear anything that's going on, and he has a seemingly endless willingness to repeat himself. (Mommy? Mommy? Mommy? Mommy? x1000).
If I stop to remind him of the rules = he gets the attention he wants, and he ignores the rules anyway.
Rules we've tried: "When the grownups are talking, you need to wait. When we are quiet you may start talking." "If you REALLY need something RIGHT NOW you can say "excuse me" but you must wait for us to say "okay [son]" before you start talking"
"I need you to zip your lips for five minutes here." "Hold a bubble in your mouth until the doctor is done talking!" "Let's play the quiet game!" "If you cannot be quiet so I can hear this person, you are going to sit in time out for the rest of the conversation." "If you can keep your mouth closed until I am off the phone we will then snuggle and read an extra book."
Possibly related: he has seemingly NO idea how to use an inside voice. I ask him to modulate his voice (and do so with my voice as an example, even whispering) to "inside voice" or "quiet voice" all day long. At the park, at the library, doesn't matter. He sounds like Brian Blessed with a loudspeaker. I've even had his hearing checked (although he can hear a candy wrapper whispering open from a mile away) and it's just fine. I don't mean the occasional shout or too-loud excited voice, which I totally understand. His normal dialogue is just TURNED UP.
Again: I don't want to crush his desire to talk to me, get attention, or ask questions. I love talking with him. I just need to teach him how to be silent when it is important. I know he CAN be because he's very well-behaved at gymnastics, but something about being around me just makes him…so…freaking….loud.
I'd really like your opinions and ideas, the more unorthodox the better since I feel like I've tried all the basics. Even "hah I can relate he's now in theatre" or "enjoy it now because my 15 year old speaks in guttural snips" would be encouraging. Thanks mefites!
How do you make him behave in other matters? I would make this a matter of training and practice. Logic won't quite work at this age but appropriate consequences applied consistently will help. But remember; he's four, and excitable outgoing four year olds will have a hard time remembering to shush when appropriate. But he's not too young for you to work with him intentionally on this. Maybe make it a game?
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 8:19 PM on June 3, 2013
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 8:19 PM on June 3, 2013
You mention siblings. Are they older or younger? How much individual attention does he get?
I have four younger siblings. We're all very close in age, and as the oldest, I often resorted to being more verbal/extroverted to get attention. Mostly because I could. In retrospect I know I was obnoxious, but it was mostly because if I was quiet, I'd have been completely ignored in favor of the misbehaving kindergartner, the toddler throwing a tantrum, and the baby who needed a diaper change. I've also heard of babies of the family being more verbal and extroverted to steal the thunder of their older siblings for the same reasons.
I also know that all four of us were "mommymommymommy" at certain times, like after school or as soon as she got home from work. Which must have been deafening.
posted by Sara C. at 8:25 PM on June 3, 2013
I have four younger siblings. We're all very close in age, and as the oldest, I often resorted to being more verbal/extroverted to get attention. Mostly because I could. In retrospect I know I was obnoxious, but it was mostly because if I was quiet, I'd have been completely ignored in favor of the misbehaving kindergartner, the toddler throwing a tantrum, and the baby who needed a diaper change. I've also heard of babies of the family being more verbal and extroverted to steal the thunder of their older siblings for the same reasons.
I also know that all four of us were "mommymommymommy" at certain times, like after school or as soon as she got home from work. Which must have been deafening.
posted by Sara C. at 8:25 PM on June 3, 2013
You might find some of the answers to this question, and this answer in particular, useful.
posted by These Birds of a Feather at 8:25 PM on June 3, 2013
posted by These Birds of a Feather at 8:25 PM on June 3, 2013
In our family what has worked in this situation has been the concept of fairness and taking turns, which even young kids relate to and which is, in fact, the basis of the social rules of conversation. A four year old can begin to understand that people take turns to talk and to listen. And sometimes when it is your turn as Mom you even choose quietness. But no one can just keep taking the turn to speak.
By five or six, if (for example) you have him at a dinner party, you can almost make it a challenge/game in advance, that he can talk again after everyone else at the table has taken their turn to say something.
It's important, because by the time he's in kindergarten he'll be at a disadvantage if he doesn't already know that he has to adapt to other people's "turn" to have the floor. Not that he'll be able to consistently succeed of course, but he should begin to get the concept.
posted by third rail at 8:33 PM on June 3, 2013 [8 favorites]
By five or six, if (for example) you have him at a dinner party, you can almost make it a challenge/game in advance, that he can talk again after everyone else at the table has taken their turn to say something.
It's important, because by the time he's in kindergarten he'll be at a disadvantage if he doesn't already know that he has to adapt to other people's "turn" to have the floor. Not that he'll be able to consistently succeed of course, but he should begin to get the concept.
posted by third rail at 8:33 PM on June 3, 2013 [8 favorites]
"I need you to zip your lips for five minutes here." "Let's play the quiet game!" "If you can keep your mouth closed until I am off the phone we will then snuggle and read an extra book."
These examples (but not all of your examples) are instances where you are negotiating with the kid, and not parenting the kid. You're inviting interpretation and rationalization. "Let's play the quiet game" leads to "I don't wanna play your game" or "I'm going to make up my own rules."
Do not negotiate. Ever. You are the LAW GIVER. Breaking the rules leads to instant, ironclad, negative response, every single time.
"You are 4 years old. You are old enough to moderate your volume when requested to. If you make noise during the next five minutes, you will go sit on the step for four minutes. Do you understand?"
Then DO IT. Do it right, and I swear, you will have do it only once.
Listen to the Super Nanny from the link. That shit does exactly what it says on the bloody tin.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 8:41 PM on June 3, 2013 [21 favorites]
These examples (but not all of your examples) are instances where you are negotiating with the kid, and not parenting the kid. You're inviting interpretation and rationalization. "Let's play the quiet game" leads to "I don't wanna play your game" or "I'm going to make up my own rules."
Do not negotiate. Ever. You are the LAW GIVER. Breaking the rules leads to instant, ironclad, negative response, every single time.
"You are 4 years old. You are old enough to moderate your volume when requested to. If you make noise during the next five minutes, you will go sit on the step for four minutes. Do you understand?"
Then DO IT. Do it right, and I swear, you will have do it only once.
Listen to the Super Nanny from the link. That shit does exactly what it says on the bloody tin.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 8:41 PM on June 3, 2013 [21 favorites]
When he interrupts, do not make eye contact or respond verbally. Continue with the conversation you are having, but rub your son's back. This should respond to his need for your attention without taking you away from the conversation on the phone or with the waitress.
At least, that's the claim made when we were trained on this before school started (I'm a teacher). Seems to work okay in my experience.
posted by booksherpa at 8:48 PM on June 3, 2013 [5 favorites]
At least, that's the claim made when we were trained on this before school started (I'm a teacher). Seems to work okay in my experience.
posted by booksherpa at 8:48 PM on June 3, 2013 [5 favorites]
booksherpa's idea seems like a really kind way to acknowledge your son without acknowledging what he's saying immediately, or giving him too much attention.
Other ideas, depending on why he's interrupting:
--If he's having trouble remembering when he's allowed to talk or not, what about a visual cue? Hold up a red card when you're talking on the phone or talking to another adult and he can't interrupt. When he interrupts, hold up the red card, not in an accusing way, just in a "look, it's the red card!" way.
--If he's having trouble waiting patiently, give him a specific task he can do when you're in a conversation that he can't interrupt. Not a game or a toy to play with necessarily, but maybe something like...a string with a bunch of beads, and he has to push all the beads from one side to the other, one by one. Or, a jar filled with water and glitter that he has to shake, and watch the glitter settle (I have been on pinterest a lot lately) before he can come to you again for attention.
--If he's worried that he'll forget all these important things that he has to say, give him a little pad of post-it notes and have him put a post-it note on his question. So if he wanted to interrupt you while you're on the phone to ask when dinner is, he can put a post-it note on the kitchen table. Again, just a way for him to have a specific task to do rather than talking over you.
posted by violetish at 9:00 PM on June 3, 2013 [1 favorite]
Other ideas, depending on why he's interrupting:
--If he's having trouble remembering when he's allowed to talk or not, what about a visual cue? Hold up a red card when you're talking on the phone or talking to another adult and he can't interrupt. When he interrupts, hold up the red card, not in an accusing way, just in a "look, it's the red card!" way.
--If he's having trouble waiting patiently, give him a specific task he can do when you're in a conversation that he can't interrupt. Not a game or a toy to play with necessarily, but maybe something like...a string with a bunch of beads, and he has to push all the beads from one side to the other, one by one. Or, a jar filled with water and glitter that he has to shake, and watch the glitter settle (I have been on pinterest a lot lately) before he can come to you again for attention.
--If he's worried that he'll forget all these important things that he has to say, give him a little pad of post-it notes and have him put a post-it note on his question. So if he wanted to interrupt you while you're on the phone to ask when dinner is, he can put a post-it note on the kitchen table. Again, just a way for him to have a specific task to do rather than talking over you.
posted by violetish at 9:00 PM on June 3, 2013 [1 favorite]
I have my kids put their hand on my arm. I've told them that's a signal that I know they are waiting to talk. It seems to help.
posted by Chaussette and the Pussy Cats at 9:50 PM on June 3, 2013 [4 favorites]
posted by Chaussette and the Pussy Cats at 9:50 PM on June 3, 2013 [4 favorites]
Mod note: One comment deleted; I understand choices of parenting styles bring up strong feelings for folks, but please do not get into a debate with other commenters. Thanks.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 10:29 PM on June 3, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 10:29 PM on June 3, 2013 [2 favorites]
Set up a "talking place" for him, a room in the house where he is allowed to talk as much as he wants. You have to give a kid an outlet, you can't just squelch him and expect him to turn out emotionally sound and intellectually whole.
posted by Dansaman at 11:03 PM on June 3, 2013
posted by Dansaman at 11:03 PM on June 3, 2013
He sounds like Brian Blessed with a loudspeaker.
That made me laugh :)
It sounds like you're trying really hard to be sensitive to his feelings so kudos to you. I started talking very early and even now I'm a 'but why?' person, so I'd say I did my Mum's head in when I was little. Unfortuntely that was a different time and place so I got lots of 'be quiet!' and I think that was one of the reasons I was quite withdrawn when I got older, and only in the last few years have I become more confident speaking in front of people. I still have a real fear of interrupting people and will wait for ages for people to stop speaking so I can take my turn.
So I get that you don't want to knock this out of him entirely. And you're right, my Mum hated that my brother rarely spoke in his teenage years and there will be a time when you miss his chatter, but that doesn't really help you right now. I really like the idea of some physical contact when he has to wait for you to speak to him, so he doesn't feel totally ignored. I'm wondering about some kind of verbal 'game' he could do while he's waiting also. If he can count, what about "I need to speak to this person/take this call. Can you see how many you can count to until I am finished?" or some kind of variation of that - 'can you tell your sibling how many colours you see/how many people you can see...'. Something so that he is still speaking but not directly to you?
The main thing might be for you to learn how to tune a little of it out, as if he's a talker he will always be a talker, so it's about accepting that part of him and not just giving him the message 'you're a good boy (acceptable to me) when you're quiet.' Have you any technique for soothing your nerves when it gets a bit much? Or some way of making enough quiet time for you?
posted by billiebee at 4:48 AM on June 4, 2013
That made me laugh :)
It sounds like you're trying really hard to be sensitive to his feelings so kudos to you. I started talking very early and even now I'm a 'but why?' person, so I'd say I did my Mum's head in when I was little. Unfortuntely that was a different time and place so I got lots of 'be quiet!' and I think that was one of the reasons I was quite withdrawn when I got older, and only in the last few years have I become more confident speaking in front of people. I still have a real fear of interrupting people and will wait for ages for people to stop speaking so I can take my turn.
So I get that you don't want to knock this out of him entirely. And you're right, my Mum hated that my brother rarely spoke in his teenage years and there will be a time when you miss his chatter, but that doesn't really help you right now. I really like the idea of some physical contact when he has to wait for you to speak to him, so he doesn't feel totally ignored. I'm wondering about some kind of verbal 'game' he could do while he's waiting also. If he can count, what about "I need to speak to this person/take this call. Can you see how many you can count to until I am finished?" or some kind of variation of that - 'can you tell your sibling how many colours you see/how many people you can see...'. Something so that he is still speaking but not directly to you?
The main thing might be for you to learn how to tune a little of it out, as if he's a talker he will always be a talker, so it's about accepting that part of him and not just giving him the message 'you're a good boy (acceptable to me) when you're quiet.' Have you any technique for soothing your nerves when it gets a bit much? Or some way of making enough quiet time for you?
posted by billiebee at 4:48 AM on June 4, 2013
Booksherpa, violetish, Chausette, and Dansaman have precisely the right idea... If punishment was going to work here, it would -- despite claims to the contrary -- have worked already.
Do explain to him why interrupting/chatterboxing isn't appreciated -- kindly! When I need to calm/quiet my 5yo (a wholly unpunished child, who is a chatterbox but who is now only very rarely, when excited, prone to interrupting) I remind her, "The thing about conversation..." to refresh her memory on that one, which is: the thing about conversation is you need at least two people. Otherwise, it's a monologue, and you can and should do that in your room out of earshot, etc. To be polite, to engage in good, interesting, useful conversations, "the thing" is that you need to first ascertain that the other party has, at that moment, the ability and interest to join in. If you start blithering away at somebody on the phone (etc) it's not conversation, and it hurts their feelings because it says you don't care about hearing their response, etc [I enjoy using logic until my kid is so bored by it she complies to get me to stop talking].
I would try to help him replace talking with something else in the limited number of situations where he really needs to hush. Rubbing his back as mentioned -- or hold his hand; agree that something signifies "Mum loves you, acknowledges that you have something to say, will listen soon but not now." Don't turn it into a power struggle with a lot of rules; keep explaining the etiquette (which will serve him well elsewhere) and be gentle when it's imperative that he hush.
Can he write -- can he enjoy pretending to write where "writing" is random letters or just scribbles? Asking him to "write it down" could help (and be a good literacy boost, especially if you can put up with a lot of "How do you spell [etc]?" A "diary," especially one with a little lock, is a fun thing even for a kid who can just write "DAD" and "DOG."
But the first answer here is really my favourite. This's him, he'll modulate himself before long no matter what you do; enjoy and try to build on the positive. I have used a lot of big words with my chatty daughter, with lots of explanations for said big words, and now we scarcely go a day where we don't have an interaction that ends with a stranger saying "You're _very_ articulate!" or "She has an amazing vocabulary!" Her best friend is a nine-year-old and I like to think part of that is because she's so verbally skilled. I am a frequently exhausted lone parent and I totally feel your pain over having trouble making a phone call etc, but there are lots of good aspects to having a talkative child. For what it's worth, my daughter has been led to believe that the safest way to drive a car is to have music playing but no talking, and our car rides thus offer some quiet me time.
posted by kmennie at 4:57 AM on June 4, 2013 [1 favorite]
Do explain to him why interrupting/chatterboxing isn't appreciated -- kindly! When I need to calm/quiet my 5yo (a wholly unpunished child, who is a chatterbox but who is now only very rarely, when excited, prone to interrupting) I remind her, "The thing about conversation..." to refresh her memory on that one, which is: the thing about conversation is you need at least two people. Otherwise, it's a monologue, and you can and should do that in your room out of earshot, etc. To be polite, to engage in good, interesting, useful conversations, "the thing" is that you need to first ascertain that the other party has, at that moment, the ability and interest to join in. If you start blithering away at somebody on the phone (etc) it's not conversation, and it hurts their feelings because it says you don't care about hearing their response, etc [I enjoy using logic until my kid is so bored by it she complies to get me to stop talking].
I would try to help him replace talking with something else in the limited number of situations where he really needs to hush. Rubbing his back as mentioned -- or hold his hand; agree that something signifies "Mum loves you, acknowledges that you have something to say, will listen soon but not now." Don't turn it into a power struggle with a lot of rules; keep explaining the etiquette (which will serve him well elsewhere) and be gentle when it's imperative that he hush.
Can he write -- can he enjoy pretending to write where "writing" is random letters or just scribbles? Asking him to "write it down" could help (and be a good literacy boost, especially if you can put up with a lot of "How do you spell [etc]?" A "diary," especially one with a little lock, is a fun thing even for a kid who can just write "DAD" and "DOG."
But the first answer here is really my favourite. This's him, he'll modulate himself before long no matter what you do; enjoy and try to build on the positive. I have used a lot of big words with my chatty daughter, with lots of explanations for said big words, and now we scarcely go a day where we don't have an interaction that ends with a stranger saying "You're _very_ articulate!" or "She has an amazing vocabulary!" Her best friend is a nine-year-old and I like to think part of that is because she's so verbally skilled. I am a frequently exhausted lone parent and I totally feel your pain over having trouble making a phone call etc, but there are lots of good aspects to having a talkative child. For what it's worth, my daughter has been led to believe that the safest way to drive a car is to have music playing but no talking, and our car rides thus offer some quiet me time.
posted by kmennie at 4:57 AM on June 4, 2013 [1 favorite]
We have that kid too. Bless her heart, she even talks in her sleep. (kidding) What worked with her was a mix of taking turns and a signal that we have her undivided attention. When she needs to talk to us, instead of just letting fly, she tugs on a hand or a leg; at that point, we squat down to her level and look her in the eye; sometimes I put her hands on my face so she can FEEL that she has my undivided attention. Then she can tell me all the zillions of things she has to tell me.
Like you, I'm a rather introverted person, and her extroversion baffles me at times. But it's so refreshing to be around someone as OUT THERE as she is, and she's dragging me out of my shell inch by inch.
posted by tigerjade at 5:51 AM on June 4, 2013 [3 favorites]
Like you, I'm a rather introverted person, and her extroversion baffles me at times. But it's so refreshing to be around someone as OUT THERE as she is, and she's dragging me out of my shell inch by inch.
posted by tigerjade at 5:51 AM on June 4, 2013 [3 favorites]
If he's within reach, maybe the hand on the arm or rubbing the back works, but if you need him to wait politely Over There, use the idea of the red card, but make it more accessible more often: come up with a hand signal to indicate that you know he is there wanting your attention but he must wait. Something similar to the "I love you" sign language gesture. Maybe make a "1" and then make a fist with your thumb under 3 fingers to make the "M" sign to indicate "1 minute". Maybe a wink along with it.
Use your signal with the teachings above about taking turns and learning "the thing" about conversation. And offer some times where HE can give you the "wait a minute" signal and then you wait a minute.
posted by CathyG at 6:49 AM on June 4, 2013
Use your signal with the teachings above about taking turns and learning "the thing" about conversation. And offer some times where HE can give you the "wait a minute" signal and then you wait a minute.
posted by CathyG at 6:49 AM on June 4, 2013
Oh, my goodness this could be me writing this letter. I have a 4-year-old who is the mayor of just about everywhere we go. I am awed by his extroversion. He makes me laugh every single day and he's been a lovely gateway for his introverted mom to meet our neighbors, the local shopkeepers, the folks at the park, etc., etc., etc. It's amazing and it's also exhausting.
We struggle with the same things. Being 4 is a lot about ENTHUSIASM! "Look what I can do!!!" "Hey did you know...?!" etc. etc. etc. but it can be really hard to reign that enthusiasm in sometimes when your brain and your body really get going. What (kind of) works for us is a combination of what's been shared above:
1) Giving him a script to follow when he needs to tell us something ["Excuse me" and wait until it's time to talk. We give him a cue to let him know what to expect "Mommy and Daddy are talking, we'll listen in two minutes." then mad praise for waiting]. I like the pat on the back idea to let him know you've heard him. We've also found it can be helpful to drop down and give him eye contact for just a second while you ask him to wait.
2) An outside cue like a timer or something to direct him to wait while we're on the phone or doing something that we can't be interrupted for for a little while. I also like the idea of a red card or something that gives a visual cue.
3) Having special things to direct him to when you really need a moment's peace. We let him have a few minutes to play on the iPad, or to play with a sticker book or something that he doesn't normally have a chance to do.
4) LOTS of fun boisterous active play and interaction at other times. We visit the neighbors, ride bikes, run around, etc. If he's had a chance to expend some of that energy, he can focus on quieter things.
5) Sometimes you just have to remove yourself from a situation too. Our guy is so energized by being around other people and fun, exciting stuff that he can go over the top without a lot of warning sometimes. If he can't keep an inside voice despite cues, or he can't stop running, or he's not staying with us in a crowd or something like that, we'll give him a warning the first time, a brief break to step outside and calm down with specific instructions for when we go back ("You need to be quiet in the library. Let's practice, make your voice sound like this." "You need to stay with us. We are going to hold hands when we go back in.") Then, if he can't do it a 3rd time, that's our cue to leave.
I also try to take time to remind myself all the time that he's still so little, and he's doing such hard work to learn all this stuff every day. He gets it right a lot of the time, and I make an effort to really point that out, if nothing else just to remind myself of how hard he's working. I am very much looking forward to what this guys's life is going to look like as he gets bigger, because it's amazing to watch him wandering through this world that, as far as he's concerned, is full of friends that haven't met him yet. Hang in there. You're doing a great job!
posted by goggie at 6:51 AM on June 4, 2013 [2 favorites]
We struggle with the same things. Being 4 is a lot about ENTHUSIASM! "Look what I can do!!!" "Hey did you know...?!" etc. etc. etc. but it can be really hard to reign that enthusiasm in sometimes when your brain and your body really get going. What (kind of) works for us is a combination of what's been shared above:
1) Giving him a script to follow when he needs to tell us something ["Excuse me" and wait until it's time to talk. We give him a cue to let him know what to expect "Mommy and Daddy are talking, we'll listen in two minutes." then mad praise for waiting]. I like the pat on the back idea to let him know you've heard him. We've also found it can be helpful to drop down and give him eye contact for just a second while you ask him to wait.
2) An outside cue like a timer or something to direct him to wait while we're on the phone or doing something that we can't be interrupted for for a little while. I also like the idea of a red card or something that gives a visual cue.
3) Having special things to direct him to when you really need a moment's peace. We let him have a few minutes to play on the iPad, or to play with a sticker book or something that he doesn't normally have a chance to do.
4) LOTS of fun boisterous active play and interaction at other times. We visit the neighbors, ride bikes, run around, etc. If he's had a chance to expend some of that energy, he can focus on quieter things.
5) Sometimes you just have to remove yourself from a situation too. Our guy is so energized by being around other people and fun, exciting stuff that he can go over the top without a lot of warning sometimes. If he can't keep an inside voice despite cues, or he can't stop running, or he's not staying with us in a crowd or something like that, we'll give him a warning the first time, a brief break to step outside and calm down with specific instructions for when we go back ("You need to be quiet in the library. Let's practice, make your voice sound like this." "You need to stay with us. We are going to hold hands when we go back in.") Then, if he can't do it a 3rd time, that's our cue to leave.
I also try to take time to remind myself all the time that he's still so little, and he's doing such hard work to learn all this stuff every day. He gets it right a lot of the time, and I make an effort to really point that out, if nothing else just to remind myself of how hard he's working. I am very much looking forward to what this guys's life is going to look like as he gets bigger, because it's amazing to watch him wandering through this world that, as far as he's concerned, is full of friends that haven't met him yet. Hang in there. You're doing a great job!
posted by goggie at 6:51 AM on June 4, 2013 [2 favorites]
Our 2.5 year old is just starting with some of this. We've been talking a lot about sharing, and how sharing doesn't only mean toys but also sharing talk. (A thing that's helped is that he's just recently been getting better about sharing things, so we know he understands that concept.) Touching or other silent acknowledgement (like a finger held in the air) while continuing the conversation sometimes helps, "One more sentence, then your turn" sometimes helps to reinforce the "sharing" idea. You mention not wanting to stop your conversation to remind him because that gives him attention, but I've found with my guy that sometimes the attention helps him hold out longer--he doesn't have the theory of mind to understand that I know he's there, so if I don't look at him I get the "mommymommymommylookmommylookwhatIdomommy" thing as he tries to point out his existence.
Do you think something visual like a "talking stick" would help? It'd be annoying long-term but it might help him to have some other cue. You wouldn't need to hold it constantly, just pull it out of your bag during phone conversations or while ordering.
posted by tchemgrrl at 7:19 AM on June 4, 2013
Do you think something visual like a "talking stick" would help? It'd be annoying long-term but it might help him to have some other cue. You wouldn't need to hold it constantly, just pull it out of your bag during phone conversations or while ordering.
posted by tchemgrrl at 7:19 AM on June 4, 2013
Help him practice being quiet. Demonstrate what you want by saying Son, I'm going to listen to your question with all my attention right now for 2 minutes. Set a timer (There are timer apps for phones). Really listen. Then Now I'm going to ask you to listen for half a minute and set the timer. When he's successful, praise, Thank You, and a star on the calendar. Keep increasing the time a little. A certain number of stars on the chart can get a small toy, or a little award ribbon, any token of success. I like the idea of allowing him to touch you, or maybe you rub his back while someone else is talking or you're on the phone. It sounds like some of his talking has an anxiety component. You can tell him I know you really want to share and I know you really want my attention right now. It feels kind of bad to you to wait, but it's okay to have that feeling for just a little bit.
When he talks out of turn, do your best to ignore it as much as possible. He's getting attention by talking, denying attention to get rid of a behavior is called extinguishing the behavior, and while it requires a ton of discipline from you, it can be very effective. You can also try re-directing, keeping a coloring sheet and a few colored pencils by the phone, and handing them to him as you talk.
posted by theora55 at 7:25 AM on June 4, 2013
When he talks out of turn, do your best to ignore it as much as possible. He's getting attention by talking, denying attention to get rid of a behavior is called extinguishing the behavior, and while it requires a ton of discipline from you, it can be very effective. You can also try re-directing, keeping a coloring sheet and a few colored pencils by the phone, and handing them to him as you talk.
posted by theora55 at 7:25 AM on June 4, 2013
Do you model the behavior you want him to copy? When he is talking to you in turn, do you let him complete what he's saying, or do you let other people interrupt him? Because I realized that we were doing this with our son for awhile --- wanting him to not interrupt others, but that we were letting people interrupt him. We realized this isn't something we want to teach him because the idea that what kids have to say is less important than what grown ups have to say is not something we want him to learn.
I try to teach my own son that it's impolite to interrupt ANYONE --- grown ups and other kids. So I try to say, "Hey, bud, [little cousin] was talking. When she finishes, it can be your turn to talk." Or, "Daddy is telling a story. When his story is done, you can tell me what you want." Then when my husband is done talking, I turn to my son and say, "Okay, bud, what did you want to tell me?"
My son has also only just finally begun to understood that it's polite to speak quietly when his little sister is sleeping so he doesn't wake her up. He's also only JUST understood what an indoor voice is. So when he starts to use an outside voice indoors, I'll start speaking in a whisper and say, "Okay, bud, try again with your indoor voice, please!" And he'll repeat what he said in an indoor voice. It's not a game, I play. I am giving him a do over to exhibit the behavior I would like him to exhibit. We don't move on to what he wants to move until he does this --- I don't just tell him to use it, he has to use it.
The other thing I have just started doing is, "Hey, bud, can you put your ears on?" That means he really needs to listen, so instead of talking, he is quiet so he can listen.
This should be an overall part of how you handle politeness. Explain to him that speaking appropriately inside is like using "please" and "thank you." Attach it to whatever other polite behaviors he does well.
posted by zizzle at 7:55 AM on June 4, 2013 [2 favorites]
I try to teach my own son that it's impolite to interrupt ANYONE --- grown ups and other kids. So I try to say, "Hey, bud, [little cousin] was talking. When she finishes, it can be your turn to talk." Or, "Daddy is telling a story. When his story is done, you can tell me what you want." Then when my husband is done talking, I turn to my son and say, "Okay, bud, what did you want to tell me?"
My son has also only just finally begun to understood that it's polite to speak quietly when his little sister is sleeping so he doesn't wake her up. He's also only JUST understood what an indoor voice is. So when he starts to use an outside voice indoors, I'll start speaking in a whisper and say, "Okay, bud, try again with your indoor voice, please!" And he'll repeat what he said in an indoor voice. It's not a game, I play. I am giving him a do over to exhibit the behavior I would like him to exhibit. We don't move on to what he wants to move until he does this --- I don't just tell him to use it, he has to use it.
The other thing I have just started doing is, "Hey, bud, can you put your ears on?" That means he really needs to listen, so instead of talking, he is quiet so he can listen.
This should be an overall part of how you handle politeness. Explain to him that speaking appropriately inside is like using "please" and "thank you." Attach it to whatever other polite behaviors he does well.
posted by zizzle at 7:55 AM on June 4, 2013 [2 favorites]
I think I was that kid. School took a few years to subdue me. Well done for spotting it. As for what to do, I would simply set the rules then remind and enforce using whatever punishment n reward system you feel most comfortable with.
posted by BenPens at 8:25 AM on June 4, 2013
posted by BenPens at 8:25 AM on June 4, 2013
I wanted to echo Cool Papa Bell's comments, with the addendum that just because you're unwavering and not open to negotiation does not mean you have to be unkind. I'd be willing to bet a variety of people knee-jerked on that one and thought what CPB was talking about was being authoritarian as opposed to merely authoritative. It isn't.
I do not raise my voice or offer a single unkind word to my four year-old son. As a matter of fact, the more upset he is, the more loving of a tone I use, because I want him to remember that it isn't Daddy being mean. These are just the rules. And my job is to uphold them. In service of that, I am implacable. Hell, I am the Sphinx. These are the rules. These are the privileges we will lose (or small, absolutely non-corporal punishments we will get) if we do not follow them. Dad is just so sorry you are upset about that, but it doesn't change anything. (Bonus: sometimes I can bring him back in line by asking plainly, "Does that ever work? Does Dad ever change his mind about bedtime?" or what have you. He will admit, no, it doesn't, then resume behaving himself.)
Since moving to this style of parenting, my son is not only remarkably better-behaved, but he and I get along better than when I would beg, plead, and cajole before we would both end up exasperated when that accomplished nothing. He does not see me as this guy constantly trying to talk him into this or that. I am just Dad who has a job, to take care of him.
Of late, we have even gone a bit further with extensive talk of "jobs." My job is to make sure he eats, sleeps, bathes, washes his hands, goes to school, etc. His job is "to do things on time." (That's an imperfect phrase and a less nuanced one than really describes what we are doing, but he understands it as "do what I am asked when I am told.") And why is that his job? "Because it helps the family," he will answer. And we have explained how all of the things he is to do "on time" help the family. He goes to bed on-time so he can wake up feeling happy instead of grouchy and we can all have a nice morning. He eats dinner on time so that we can all play together after before his bedtime. He goes to school on time so Mom can get to work on time. Etc.
Anyway, there are a variety of terrific approaches outlined here by people who sound like terrific parents. But Cool Papa Bell's "law giver" approach is what works for us. And I wanted to clarify that this approach need not be in any way unkind.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 9:44 AM on June 4, 2013 [16 favorites]
I do not raise my voice or offer a single unkind word to my four year-old son. As a matter of fact, the more upset he is, the more loving of a tone I use, because I want him to remember that it isn't Daddy being mean. These are just the rules. And my job is to uphold them. In service of that, I am implacable. Hell, I am the Sphinx. These are the rules. These are the privileges we will lose (or small, absolutely non-corporal punishments we will get) if we do not follow them. Dad is just so sorry you are upset about that, but it doesn't change anything. (Bonus: sometimes I can bring him back in line by asking plainly, "Does that ever work? Does Dad ever change his mind about bedtime?" or what have you. He will admit, no, it doesn't, then resume behaving himself.)
Since moving to this style of parenting, my son is not only remarkably better-behaved, but he and I get along better than when I would beg, plead, and cajole before we would both end up exasperated when that accomplished nothing. He does not see me as this guy constantly trying to talk him into this or that. I am just Dad who has a job, to take care of him.
Of late, we have even gone a bit further with extensive talk of "jobs." My job is to make sure he eats, sleeps, bathes, washes his hands, goes to school, etc. His job is "to do things on time." (That's an imperfect phrase and a less nuanced one than really describes what we are doing, but he understands it as "do what I am asked when I am told.") And why is that his job? "Because it helps the family," he will answer. And we have explained how all of the things he is to do "on time" help the family. He goes to bed on-time so he can wake up feeling happy instead of grouchy and we can all have a nice morning. He eats dinner on time so that we can all play together after before his bedtime. He goes to school on time so Mom can get to work on time. Etc.
Anyway, there are a variety of terrific approaches outlined here by people who sound like terrific parents. But Cool Papa Bell's "law giver" approach is what works for us. And I wanted to clarify that this approach need not be in any way unkind.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 9:44 AM on June 4, 2013 [16 favorites]
But Cool Papa Bell's "law giver" approach is what works for us. And I wanted to clarify that this approach need not be in any way unkind.
Yes, exactly. Thank you.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 11:16 AM on June 4, 2013 [1 favorite]
Yes, exactly. Thank you.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 11:16 AM on June 4, 2013 [1 favorite]
Just yesterday, I had to call my mom and this is what I told my son just before:
"You are awesome. I like to hear everything you have to say. But right now, I need to talk to Grandma and to hear what she has to say. So right now, it's time for me to talk to her. That means it's your time to be quiet. That is your job right now. It will only be for a few minutes, and then you and I can talk some more and I will listen to anything and everything you have to say. If you cannot be quiet for these few minutes, you will have to go to Time Out and wait until I am done. Do you understand?"
Outside of one interruption that he trailed off from mid-sentence when he saw me raise my eyebrows at him, this worked just fine. We had to work up to this, with a couple of instances of him being put into Time Out and being sour about it, but once we established with total certainty that talking during Dad's phone call leads to Time Out (which he calls "boring time"), we were good to go.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 12:04 PM on June 4, 2013
"You are awesome. I like to hear everything you have to say. But right now, I need to talk to Grandma and to hear what she has to say. So right now, it's time for me to talk to her. That means it's your time to be quiet. That is your job right now. It will only be for a few minutes, and then you and I can talk some more and I will listen to anything and everything you have to say. If you cannot be quiet for these few minutes, you will have to go to Time Out and wait until I am done. Do you understand?"
Outside of one interruption that he trailed off from mid-sentence when he saw me raise my eyebrows at him, this worked just fine. We had to work up to this, with a couple of instances of him being put into Time Out and being sour about it, but once we established with total certainty that talking during Dad's phone call leads to Time Out (which he calls "boring time"), we were good to go.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 12:04 PM on June 4, 2013
I know several people have said it, but using a visual cue, like the talking stick or a red card, is likely to be very helpful. Think of this like you needing a list at the grocery store, it's just a mnemonic device. Sometimes it can be really hard to remember things, even if we've been told many times. Having a visual cue like that really helps as a reminder of what the rule is. Over time, the rule will become more of a habit and you will be able to stop using the cue.
I haven't used a cue for this particular thing, but my daughter was having a tough time remembering not to use a whiny voice. She seemed to understand what whiny and not whiny were, but could not seem to stop herself from whining for everything. It didn't matter if we refused to give her what she wanted if she whined, for example. She just wasn't able to remember it in time to not whine in the first place, it seemed. So, I made her a happy face cue. I made her carry the happy face cue around. She'd start to ask for something and look at the happy face and remember that she needed to use a happy voice, and she would use it. If she didn't remember, I could point to the happy face, and she would immediately re-ask the question.
As for the inside voice thing, I think a visual cue might also help, but if he truly doesn't understand the difference, it's going to take more, it seems. Perception and production are believed to be linked, so it might help to give a lot of practice with hearing and responding to different volume levels. So, you could try your different voice levels and have him actually tell you which ones were inside voices and which were not, etc., as his perceptual skill increased, hopefully his production skill would also increase (theoretically, it should - but I find that children aren't always the best at doing what theories say!). Then, you may still need to add in that visual cue to remind him for a while.
I don't have kids old enough to say "don't worry, he'll get over it!", but so far I've learned that almost everything is a phase to some degree, and any behavior that drives me batty is likely to go away (and be replaced by some new phase with behavior I had never even considered).
Good luck! It sounds like you are doing a great job.
posted by freezer cake at 1:41 PM on June 4, 2013
I haven't used a cue for this particular thing, but my daughter was having a tough time remembering not to use a whiny voice. She seemed to understand what whiny and not whiny were, but could not seem to stop herself from whining for everything. It didn't matter if we refused to give her what she wanted if she whined, for example. She just wasn't able to remember it in time to not whine in the first place, it seemed. So, I made her a happy face cue. I made her carry the happy face cue around. She'd start to ask for something and look at the happy face and remember that she needed to use a happy voice, and she would use it. If she didn't remember, I could point to the happy face, and she would immediately re-ask the question.
As for the inside voice thing, I think a visual cue might also help, but if he truly doesn't understand the difference, it's going to take more, it seems. Perception and production are believed to be linked, so it might help to give a lot of practice with hearing and responding to different volume levels. So, you could try your different voice levels and have him actually tell you which ones were inside voices and which were not, etc., as his perceptual skill increased, hopefully his production skill would also increase (theoretically, it should - but I find that children aren't always the best at doing what theories say!). Then, you may still need to add in that visual cue to remind him for a while.
I don't have kids old enough to say "don't worry, he'll get over it!", but so far I've learned that almost everything is a phase to some degree, and any behavior that drives me batty is likely to go away (and be replaced by some new phase with behavior I had never even considered).
Good luck! It sounds like you are doing a great job.
posted by freezer cake at 1:41 PM on June 4, 2013
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posted by bkeene12 at 8:16 PM on June 3, 2013 [7 favorites]