Fighting family
May 31, 2013 1:22 PM Subscribe
I lent my cousin a very special item. Now they won't give it back. Do I fight or retreat?
Some years ago, I lent the family of my first cousin a special item because they were poor and struggling and included two small children. For privacy reasons, I won't mention the item, but imagine it's very useful, stylish and worth at least $ 2000 used. Some time ago, they suddenly became affluent, bought a house and a car, and could easily still afford to buy said item for themselves. I wrote to them that I'd like my item back, but no worries, no haste, and they wrote back in a courteous manner that they still used it frequently and would like a little more respite. I wrote back no problem.
Now a huge tragedy has happened in my immediate circle and the affected family needs this item very, very much. So I wrote my cousin I want it back now (with the reason explained).
Now suddenly, my cousin claims they thought it was a gift and they invested $ 1500 in it. This is all absurd, both since it is not long since she acknowledged it was my property, and since it would be stupid to invest 1500 dollars in someone else's 2000 dollar item. They are also threatening me. I feel they are trying to blackmail me, or trying to threaten me into giving up my rights.
I've never liked this cousin much, but I'm from a family and culture where we think family first. I feel this cousin is abusing the culture and acting out in a way that should not be accepted. But the immediate family is in a situation where they cannot/will not take action. (Which may again be why they are acting out). I feel split in many ways.
I would like to call the police - it's the cheapest solution and the most efficient one. But obviously, that would be the end of that branch of the family for me. Something I find difficult to accept over just material loss.
I would like to give up - its a big value, but honestly, if my close friend hadn't suffered his loss, I could easily have waited ten years more. I would never sell this item, so the money is not an issue.
If I give up now, it will have dire consequences. The reason I never liked this cousin is their really, really bad ethics, and that goes for their close family as well. If I let go on this, there is a very real risk this whole group will begin pushing my boundaries even further. And in a family like mine a lot of things are intertwined.
The father of their branch, my uncle, is not at all immoral, and I'd hate to loose him. He is a weak man, extremely lovable but also easily used by scammers, and that has been his fate. So among his children he has both wonderful and terrible people. I would hate to loose the connection to my wonderful cousins because of the bad seeds.
Some years ago, I lent the family of my first cousin a special item because they were poor and struggling and included two small children. For privacy reasons, I won't mention the item, but imagine it's very useful, stylish and worth at least $ 2000 used. Some time ago, they suddenly became affluent, bought a house and a car, and could easily still afford to buy said item for themselves. I wrote to them that I'd like my item back, but no worries, no haste, and they wrote back in a courteous manner that they still used it frequently and would like a little more respite. I wrote back no problem.
Now a huge tragedy has happened in my immediate circle and the affected family needs this item very, very much. So I wrote my cousin I want it back now (with the reason explained).
Now suddenly, my cousin claims they thought it was a gift and they invested $ 1500 in it. This is all absurd, both since it is not long since she acknowledged it was my property, and since it would be stupid to invest 1500 dollars in someone else's 2000 dollar item. They are also threatening me. I feel they are trying to blackmail me, or trying to threaten me into giving up my rights.
I've never liked this cousin much, but I'm from a family and culture where we think family first. I feel this cousin is abusing the culture and acting out in a way that should not be accepted. But the immediate family is in a situation where they cannot/will not take action. (Which may again be why they are acting out). I feel split in many ways.
I would like to call the police - it's the cheapest solution and the most efficient one. But obviously, that would be the end of that branch of the family for me. Something I find difficult to accept over just material loss.
I would like to give up - its a big value, but honestly, if my close friend hadn't suffered his loss, I could easily have waited ten years more. I would never sell this item, so the money is not an issue.
If I give up now, it will have dire consequences. The reason I never liked this cousin is their really, really bad ethics, and that goes for their close family as well. If I let go on this, there is a very real risk this whole group will begin pushing my boundaries even further. And in a family like mine a lot of things are intertwined.
The father of their branch, my uncle, is not at all immoral, and I'd hate to loose him. He is a weak man, extremely lovable but also easily used by scammers, and that has been his fate. So among his children he has both wonderful and terrible people. I would hate to loose the connection to my wonderful cousins because of the bad seeds.
Let it go for the sake of your uncle. Let your cousin know this is the last "gift" or loan they are ever going to get from you. And then don't give them anything again.
posted by bearwife at 1:36 PM on May 31, 2013
posted by bearwife at 1:36 PM on May 31, 2013
Best answer: Can you say something like, "I am very, very disappointed in this. I never felt that this was a gift, and you indicated on (date) that you would return it to me at a later time. It seems like you're not willing or able to return it, despite knowing it has great value to me. Your actions have hurt me and changed the nature of our relationship."
And then if they ever ask you for anything again, go to the Miss Manners classic: "That just won't be possible."
And just let it go, and distance yourself from these particular people. You don't need to do it dramatically, as that will feed the Drama Fire; just let the distance happen naturally.
posted by samthemander at 1:37 PM on May 31, 2013 [57 favorites]
And then if they ever ask you for anything again, go to the Miss Manners classic: "That just won't be possible."
And just let it go, and distance yourself from these particular people. You don't need to do it dramatically, as that will feed the Drama Fire; just let the distance happen naturally.
posted by samthemander at 1:37 PM on May 31, 2013 [57 favorites]
Lots of threads here.
As for your uncle and your other "good" cousins, if your they are so wonderful they wouldn't cut ties with you because one of their siblings refused to give back something you had lent when you need it for someone else. Let them do what they want and don't make your decision based on trying to read their minds.
As for the ones not giving your item back: If you want to give up, give up. If you want to call the police, and you think you have evidence to prove your case, do that. Don't worry about what they might do in the future regarding your boundaries. You can't know how you'll deal with something that hasn't occurred yet. The one thing you know for sure is how much the item is needed by you now and what will happen if you don't get it.
As for the ones you want to help: They say you should only lend things and money that you will be ok with not getting back. Unfortunately you don't have the item you need to help them. Maybe there is some other way you can help them instead.
posted by bleep at 1:40 PM on May 31, 2013
As for your uncle and your other "good" cousins, if your they are so wonderful they wouldn't cut ties with you because one of their siblings refused to give back something you had lent when you need it for someone else. Let them do what they want and don't make your decision based on trying to read their minds.
As for the ones not giving your item back: If you want to give up, give up. If you want to call the police, and you think you have evidence to prove your case, do that. Don't worry about what they might do in the future regarding your boundaries. You can't know how you'll deal with something that hasn't occurred yet. The one thing you know for sure is how much the item is needed by you now and what will happen if you don't get it.
As for the ones you want to help: They say you should only lend things and money that you will be ok with not getting back. Unfortunately you don't have the item you need to help them. Maybe there is some other way you can help them instead.
posted by bleep at 1:40 PM on May 31, 2013
The father of their branch, my uncle, is not at all immoral.
Did you tell him about this? Maybe he'll get the item back for you or otherwise try to see that you are compensated.
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 1:42 PM on May 31, 2013 [2 favorites]
Did you tell him about this? Maybe he'll get the item back for you or otherwise try to see that you are compensated.
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 1:42 PM on May 31, 2013 [2 favorites]
There's an option in between demanding it back and letting it go, but I'm not sure there's enough info here to say whether it's a good or bad option. But you could tell them "I intended it as a loan, and would not have given it away. But if you really want/need to keep it that badly, that's fine. Just send me $2000, what it was worth used before you invested in it, because if I don't have use of the item itself, I really need the money. It's to help a friend in need."
This is assuming your friend could really be helped with the money, if not the item. It's also assuming the little white lies in that request would allow your family to save face or whatever (in case they damaged it) and would let you keep up some sort of (less trusting, but semi-decent) relationship with them.
posted by DestinationUnknown at 1:44 PM on May 31, 2013 [2 favorites]
This is assuming your friend could really be helped with the money, if not the item. It's also assuming the little white lies in that request would allow your family to save face or whatever (in case they damaged it) and would let you keep up some sort of (less trusting, but semi-decent) relationship with them.
posted by DestinationUnknown at 1:44 PM on May 31, 2013 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: The father of their branch, my uncle, is not at all immoral.
Did you tell him about this? Maybe he'll get the item back for you or otherwise try to see that you are compensated.
The father is in the beginning stages of dementia, this is why I can't use normal channels.
Your answers are really really useful, thank you already. Since they are coming in real fast and I learn something valuable from each answer, I'll wait an hour before closing the thread.
posted by mumimor at 1:46 PM on May 31, 2013
Did you tell him about this? Maybe he'll get the item back for you or otherwise try to see that you are compensated.
The father is in the beginning stages of dementia, this is why I can't use normal channels.
Your answers are really really useful, thank you already. Since they are coming in real fast and I learn something valuable from each answer, I'll wait an hour before closing the thread.
posted by mumimor at 1:46 PM on May 31, 2013
Do you have title of ownership for said item? Do you have it insured? $2000.00 is worth insuring. Talk to your Uncle. Did you keep written record of interactions between you and your cousin?
posted by QueerAngel28 at 1:47 PM on May 31, 2013
posted by QueerAngel28 at 1:47 PM on May 31, 2013
Response by poster: I have all the papers and it is insured, the police-course is very simple.
I also have written records (Formerly, I worked as an architect, it's become a bad habit to be legally covered)
posted by mumimor at 1:48 PM on May 31, 2013 [1 favorite]
I also have written records (Formerly, I worked as an architect, it's become a bad habit to be legally covered)
posted by mumimor at 1:48 PM on May 31, 2013 [1 favorite]
I can't imagine the police would help. If it were stolen, sure, but this is an ownership dispute--you say you own it, they say it was a gift. That kind of dispute is a matter for the civil courts.
You can always try the police, but I think it's a waste of time.
posted by resurrexit at 1:51 PM on May 31, 2013 [3 favorites]
You can always try the police, but I think it's a waste of time.
posted by resurrexit at 1:51 PM on May 31, 2013 [3 favorites]
I would suggest telling this guy to return what he owes, or you'll be forced to go to the police. You don't even have to follow through.
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 1:53 PM on May 31, 2013 [3 favorites]
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 1:53 PM on May 31, 2013 [3 favorites]
I'm trying to imagine what it is, this is what's coming to mind:
A Car
A Louis Vuitton Handbag
A Uchikake
A refrigerator
At any case, here's the thing. As much as you'd like to help your friend, you can't. Because the thing you had is gone. It sucks, but there it is.
You can offer to reimburse your cousin for the $1,500 that he/she put into it, so long as they can produce a receipt and return the item.
Don't get the police involved this is a civil, not a criminal matter.
Send a demand letter, certified mail, explain that you have documentation of ownership and that you intend to sue if they don't return it. Either you'll get it back or you can sue your cousin in Small Claims court for the value of the item, or its return. Once you file suit, you can call a court show (I recommend People's Court) and see if you can get the case heard there. That will guarantee that you either get the item back or get compensated for it.
Once you let it out of your hands, it got out of your control. You can't hope that someone gives the item back after they have it. You need to compel them to do it, and the best way is through the civil courts.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 1:56 PM on May 31, 2013 [3 favorites]
A Car
A Louis Vuitton Handbag
A Uchikake
A refrigerator
At any case, here's the thing. As much as you'd like to help your friend, you can't. Because the thing you had is gone. It sucks, but there it is.
You can offer to reimburse your cousin for the $1,500 that he/she put into it, so long as they can produce a receipt and return the item.
Don't get the police involved this is a civil, not a criminal matter.
Send a demand letter, certified mail, explain that you have documentation of ownership and that you intend to sue if they don't return it. Either you'll get it back or you can sue your cousin in Small Claims court for the value of the item, or its return. Once you file suit, you can call a court show (I recommend People's Court) and see if you can get the case heard there. That will guarantee that you either get the item back or get compensated for it.
Once you let it out of your hands, it got out of your control. You can't hope that someone gives the item back after they have it. You need to compel them to do it, and the best way is through the civil courts.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 1:56 PM on May 31, 2013 [3 favorites]
I wrote to them that I'd like my item back, but no worries, no haste, and they wrote back in a courteous manner that they still used it frequently and would like a little more respite. I wrote back no problem.
You have written proof that they knew it was not a gift. That holds up in a court of law. You can reach out to the cousin, point out that they've already admitted they knew it wasn't a gift in writing, and that you don't think family matters should be handled in the courts, so you'd like it back now.
If they respond badly, or don't respond at all, contact the uncle in an attempt to keep it in the family. Don't ask him to get it back: share with him what happened, briefly, mentioning that you've got it is writing that they know it wasn't a gift, and that since he's their father you figured he'd want to know, because you respect him and his ways and know he'd want to know about it.
Hopefully he'll lean on them to make it good, and if not, then you can choose to take them to court or not as you see fit. Whether or not you do depends in large part on how much money matters to you versus family relationships.
posted by davejay at 1:59 PM on May 31, 2013 [2 favorites]
You have written proof that they knew it was not a gift. That holds up in a court of law. You can reach out to the cousin, point out that they've already admitted they knew it wasn't a gift in writing, and that you don't think family matters should be handled in the courts, so you'd like it back now.
If they respond badly, or don't respond at all, contact the uncle in an attempt to keep it in the family. Don't ask him to get it back: share with him what happened, briefly, mentioning that you've got it is writing that they know it wasn't a gift, and that since he's their father you figured he'd want to know, because you respect him and his ways and know he'd want to know about it.
Hopefully he'll lean on them to make it good, and if not, then you can choose to take them to court or not as you see fit. Whether or not you do depends in large part on how much money matters to you versus family relationships.
posted by davejay at 1:59 PM on May 31, 2013 [2 favorites]
Oh, and I admire your willingness to help people, both in your family and in your social circle. However, going forward, you might do well to put things in writing up front. Putting things in writing up front helps ensure that family and friends remain civil in the long term, by avoiding nonsense like this, and if the person you're trying to help in some way balks at it, then you know they might not be operating in good faith/telling you the truth and you can withdraw your help.
posted by davejay at 2:02 PM on May 31, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by davejay at 2:02 PM on May 31, 2013 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: For those who are trying to imagine what it is, it's a cultural object, easily identifiable on the web and irl. Please don't go further that way.
Again, your answers are immensely valuable and every time I feel I've seen the right one, another really important point gets drawn up.
Money isn't really important, my fear is of the further consequences. Some of you have addressed this really well, thank you.
Imagine an Asian-type family (we are not conventionally seen as Asian) with a mountain of honor rules and complicated economic interdependencies.
In a way, I need to learn what "normal" people do, in a way I can adapt to my family. In the long run, I want us to maintain our culture of family closeness, but discard situations like this where the line between tolerance and corruption becomes too thin.
posted by mumimor at 2:10 PM on May 31, 2013 [1 favorite]
Again, your answers are immensely valuable and every time I feel I've seen the right one, another really important point gets drawn up.
Money isn't really important, my fear is of the further consequences. Some of you have addressed this really well, thank you.
Imagine an Asian-type family (we are not conventionally seen as Asian) with a mountain of honor rules and complicated economic interdependencies.
In a way, I need to learn what "normal" people do, in a way I can adapt to my family. In the long run, I want us to maintain our culture of family closeness, but discard situations like this where the line between tolerance and corruption becomes too thin.
posted by mumimor at 2:10 PM on May 31, 2013 [1 favorite]
You have documentation that you own it, they do not. Stand up for your rights and politely but firmly demand they return it, then sue 'em in small claims when they balk.
posted by zippy at 2:11 PM on May 31, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by zippy at 2:11 PM on May 31, 2013 [1 favorite]
How small is this item? I'd seriously consider coming up with a way to visit them and just take it without them noticing at that moment. I've done this with physically small items I've lent people before who were just well, not returning them.
Because what the hell are they going to say without looking like doofuses? Nothing. It'll probably never come up in conversation again, and the damage is already done to the relationship between the two of you anyways.
The ship has already sailed on this being a civil discussion, and you verifiably own the thing. Just take it.
posted by emptythought at 2:15 PM on May 31, 2013 [2 favorites]
Because what the hell are they going to say without looking like doofuses? Nothing. It'll probably never come up in conversation again, and the damage is already done to the relationship between the two of you anyways.
The ship has already sailed on this being a civil discussion, and you verifiably own the thing. Just take it.
posted by emptythought at 2:15 PM on May 31, 2013 [2 favorites]
Imagine an Asian-type family (we are not conventionally seen as Asian) with a mountain of honor rules and complicated economic interdependencies.
Hmmm. Maybe you could, sort of delicately, say that you know how generous and kind they are and that perhaps in the spirit of generosity in which they received this item initially they would be willing to loan it to this other family (it's unclear to me whether the cousins are related to the family in need, but if so, so much the better) in their time of need.
Then when the family in need is finished, they would presumably return it to you.
The key would be phrasing this in such a way that it makes them think that you think they are the owners and it was a gift when in fact you think the opposite and plan to get the item back.
Although now that I type it, would you let the question of ownership go if the cousins loaned it to the family in need and then got it back? That might be the solution that allows everyone to save face, although you are out your $2000 item and whatever energy is required to obtain the item (it's one thing if it is a car or an appliance and another if it is, say, a cultural outfit that is handmade half-way across the world and has to be fitted, or something). Only you can decide which is most important and how much the item is "really" worth to you.
posted by Snarl Furillo at 2:29 PM on May 31, 2013 [4 favorites]
Hmmm. Maybe you could, sort of delicately, say that you know how generous and kind they are and that perhaps in the spirit of generosity in which they received this item initially they would be willing to loan it to this other family (it's unclear to me whether the cousins are related to the family in need, but if so, so much the better) in their time of need.
Then when the family in need is finished, they would presumably return it to you.
The key would be phrasing this in such a way that it makes them think that you think they are the owners and it was a gift when in fact you think the opposite and plan to get the item back.
Although now that I type it, would you let the question of ownership go if the cousins loaned it to the family in need and then got it back? That might be the solution that allows everyone to save face, although you are out your $2000 item and whatever energy is required to obtain the item (it's one thing if it is a car or an appliance and another if it is, say, a cultural outfit that is handmade half-way across the world and has to be fitted, or something). Only you can decide which is most important and how much the item is "really" worth to you.
posted by Snarl Furillo at 2:29 PM on May 31, 2013 [4 favorites]
In a way, I need to learn what "normal" people do, in a way I can adapt to my family. In the long run, I want us to maintain our culture of family closeness, but discard situations like this where the line between tolerance and corruption becomes too thin.
The thing is that I haven't seen this work. basically these disputes over money and who owes what to whom are eventually what tear even the most traditional families apart. It basically depends on how much your cousin wishes to escalate the situation. Once lawyers are involved, it's basically the end of the relationship until your children and your cousins' children decide to reconcile between themselves decades later.
What you need to do is get the rest of your family to convince your cousin to give it back to you, possibly in some face-saving manner where you accept it as a gift or something or he lends it to the affected family himself and you get it back later.
posted by deanc at 2:30 PM on May 31, 2013
The thing is that I haven't seen this work. basically these disputes over money and who owes what to whom are eventually what tear even the most traditional families apart. It basically depends on how much your cousin wishes to escalate the situation. Once lawyers are involved, it's basically the end of the relationship until your children and your cousins' children decide to reconcile between themselves decades later.
What you need to do is get the rest of your family to convince your cousin to give it back to you, possibly in some face-saving manner where you accept it as a gift or something or he lends it to the affected family himself and you get it back later.
posted by deanc at 2:30 PM on May 31, 2013
If your family relationships are more important, then let the item go.
If the item is more important, sue the family member for its return.
Those are your two choices.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 2:33 PM on May 31, 2013 [4 favorites]
If the item is more important, sue the family member for its return.
Those are your two choices.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 2:33 PM on May 31, 2013 [4 favorites]
Imagine an Asian-type family (we are not conventionally seen as Asian) with a mountain of honor rules and complicated economic interdependencies.
Hm. In light of that, perhaps your uncle's brother/sister (whichever is your parent) should be made aware of this, and they should discuss it between themselves to determine an appropriate resolution.
posted by davejay at 2:33 PM on May 31, 2013
Hm. In light of that, perhaps your uncle's brother/sister (whichever is your parent) should be made aware of this, and they should discuss it between themselves to determine an appropriate resolution.
posted by davejay at 2:33 PM on May 31, 2013
Is there no one else in your family that can help pressure your cousin? I would think your cousin wouldn't want it widely known in the family that they steal from family members.
posted by kavasa at 2:37 PM on May 31, 2013
posted by kavasa at 2:37 PM on May 31, 2013
Response by poster: Davejay, thanks for addressing this. Again, my culture is causing me difficulties which are hard to explain, while the whole point is I want to take us out of "culture".
Formally, my mother is now head of the family, but she is not able. My uncle is next in line, and he is on the verge of dementia but still very strongly ambitious about the possible position. My aunt is much younger, and is not interested, but still enjoys any form of drama. After all that is gone I am the head of the family, and because of the above, I already function that way (this includes giving out small amounts of money from a very small trust (talking 200 dollars)). Otherwise I wouldn't have these worries. The specific item is in more than one way symbolic here
posted by mumimor at 2:46 PM on May 31, 2013
Formally, my mother is now head of the family, but she is not able. My uncle is next in line, and he is on the verge of dementia but still very strongly ambitious about the possible position. My aunt is much younger, and is not interested, but still enjoys any form of drama. After all that is gone I am the head of the family, and because of the above, I already function that way (this includes giving out small amounts of money from a very small trust (talking 200 dollars)). Otherwise I wouldn't have these worries. The specific item is in more than one way symbolic here
posted by mumimor at 2:46 PM on May 31, 2013
First just know that even those families who don't have this cultural background frequently have similar problems with long grudges, backstabbing, greed, theft, and boundary-pushing. It's not that your family is too culturally bound or anything like that. Just don't think that there's such thing as a "normal" family or a specific way they would do things differently.
However it sounds like the kind of thing you might want to encourage is "Live and let live" and a general attitude of generosity, kindness and short memories. You could lead by example by saying "One last time, please give me my item back or reimburse me. Thank you." Then let it drop and don't mention it again. That's not to say it will definitely work. But you have to do the things you want other people to do.
posted by bleep at 2:57 PM on May 31, 2013 [1 favorite]
However it sounds like the kind of thing you might want to encourage is "Live and let live" and a general attitude of generosity, kindness and short memories. You could lead by example by saying "One last time, please give me my item back or reimburse me. Thank you." Then let it drop and don't mention it again. That's not to say it will definitely work. But you have to do the things you want other people to do.
posted by bleep at 2:57 PM on May 31, 2013 [1 favorite]
Formally, my mother is now head of the family, but she is not able. My uncle is next in line, and he is on the verge of dementia but still very strongly ambitious about the possible position. My aunt is much younger, and is not interested, but still enjoys any form of drama.
To be blunt, if no one is willing to take your side and put pressure on your cousin to return the item, they are implicitly stating that they favor your cousin's possession of the item in the name of family harmony to your "right" to have it back, and they would take you to task for escalating the matter outside of the family. If you're the only person who places an importance on having the item (or loaning it to the family member in need of it right now), then you are "in the wrong" from the perspective of the family unit.
You have already tried working one-on-one with your cousin to get the item back. You have a few options left:
(a) You get your mother, aunt, and uncle to make an arrangement with the cousin to return the item/lend the item to the other family member
(b) You escalate to the legal system and become known as "the family member who got The Authorities involved in a family matter over material possessions/money." (I don't see your cousin talking to you after this, and there will be side-taking in which some members of the family take your side and some your cousin's side, and the factions stop speaking to each other)
(c) You eat it and accept that you lost the item.
That's it. There aren't any other options, as far as I can see.
posted by deanc at 3:00 PM on May 31, 2013 [4 favorites]
To be blunt, if no one is willing to take your side and put pressure on your cousin to return the item, they are implicitly stating that they favor your cousin's possession of the item in the name of family harmony to your "right" to have it back, and they would take you to task for escalating the matter outside of the family. If you're the only person who places an importance on having the item (or loaning it to the family member in need of it right now), then you are "in the wrong" from the perspective of the family unit.
You have already tried working one-on-one with your cousin to get the item back. You have a few options left:
(a) You get your mother, aunt, and uncle to make an arrangement with the cousin to return the item/lend the item to the other family member
(b) You escalate to the legal system and become known as "the family member who got The Authorities involved in a family matter over material possessions/money." (I don't see your cousin talking to you after this, and there will be side-taking in which some members of the family take your side and some your cousin's side, and the factions stop speaking to each other)
(c) You eat it and accept that you lost the item.
That's it. There aren't any other options, as far as I can see.
posted by deanc at 3:00 PM on May 31, 2013 [4 favorites]
Response by poster: deanc - I haven't included the rest of the family in this yet. Contrariwise, I am working closely with a brother of the cousin right now, which I why I am so private about the item. When I speak out, there will be a 50/50 situation, and at the end of the day, even though this isn't my favorite part of the family, I'd prefer we were friends, As I said, this is Asian-style complicated. Still, I think your advise is really valuable.
posted by mumimor at 3:06 PM on May 31, 2013
posted by mumimor at 3:06 PM on May 31, 2013
If you will eventually become the head of your family, this is kind of like a test for you. I would reply to your cousin first, simply stating that they have ten days to return the item before you take further action. Do not threaten what that action might be, just leave it as simple as that. Do not be pulled into a discussion or drama, just keep calmly repeating.
Cousin: you GAVE it to me.
You: I expect it to be returned by x date.
Cousin: But I put so much money in it.
You: I expect it to be returned by x date.
Cousin: You are a terrible person.
You: I expect it to be returned by x date.
If it is not returned, you must bring the rest of the family in. Set a new ten day date and calmly tell them all that you expect cousin to return the item by new date. Avoid all the drama that ensues by calmly repeating as above. Do not get drawn in to long conversations, just keep saying it. If the item is not returned by the second date, involve the police.
That's all you can do. If you have to go this far, you will be met with anger and drama, I know. Your script at that point, repeated calmly as necessary will be:
I gave cousin and family every opportunity to do the right thing, and they chose not to do so.
posted by raisingsand at 3:44 PM on May 31, 2013 [13 favorites]
Cousin: you GAVE it to me.
You: I expect it to be returned by x date.
Cousin: But I put so much money in it.
You: I expect it to be returned by x date.
Cousin: You are a terrible person.
You: I expect it to be returned by x date.
If it is not returned, you must bring the rest of the family in. Set a new ten day date and calmly tell them all that you expect cousin to return the item by new date. Avoid all the drama that ensues by calmly repeating as above. Do not get drawn in to long conversations, just keep saying it. If the item is not returned by the second date, involve the police.
That's all you can do. If you have to go this far, you will be met with anger and drama, I know. Your script at that point, repeated calmly as necessary will be:
I gave cousin and family every opportunity to do the right thing, and they chose not to do so.
posted by raisingsand at 3:44 PM on May 31, 2013 [13 favorites]
Again, my culture is causing me difficulties which are hard to explain, while the whole point is I want to take us out of "culture".
I'm not sure if you mean you want you and your cousin to decide this without bowing to the norms of your culture, or if you want posters here to talk about how they would handle this situation so you get a better sense of norms outside your culture. I'm going to assume the second for the answer to this question.
My cultural background is white American without a specific strong connection to any European nation (ie, we don't think of ourselves very strongly as Irish or Polish or anything). I would say one side of my family is more emotive and "dramatic" for lack of a better word and one side is more apt to connect through joking/snarking with fewer emotional displays although emotion is still a factor.
In (almost) every example from my family that I can think of, disagreements over money and objects (especially when the objects are sentimental or important in some way like being an heirloom) have become ugly and mean. Money is a very powerful force in its own right and money and objects can very quickly become yardsticks with which to measure love and investment in relationships. They often end up being not about the object in question. The best advice I've gotten when I've been in these situations (once, but I cried over it a lot) is to think about what outcome you want and proceed from there.
Do you want the object back more than you want to preserve the relationship with your cousins?
Do you want the object back even if it means capitulating to your cousins (for example, maybe they "give" you the item back or "loan" it to you)?
Do you want to be acknowledged as the family head and treated with respect?
Do you want your cousins to admit they are wrong? (This probably won't happen.)
Do you want to help this other family?
Knowing what you want will help you know how to proceed.
posted by Snarl Furillo at 3:51 PM on May 31, 2013
I'm not sure if you mean you want you and your cousin to decide this without bowing to the norms of your culture, or if you want posters here to talk about how they would handle this situation so you get a better sense of norms outside your culture. I'm going to assume the second for the answer to this question.
My cultural background is white American without a specific strong connection to any European nation (ie, we don't think of ourselves very strongly as Irish or Polish or anything). I would say one side of my family is more emotive and "dramatic" for lack of a better word and one side is more apt to connect through joking/snarking with fewer emotional displays although emotion is still a factor.
In (almost) every example from my family that I can think of, disagreements over money and objects (especially when the objects are sentimental or important in some way like being an heirloom) have become ugly and mean. Money is a very powerful force in its own right and money and objects can very quickly become yardsticks with which to measure love and investment in relationships. They often end up being not about the object in question. The best advice I've gotten when I've been in these situations (once, but I cried over it a lot) is to think about what outcome you want and proceed from there.
Do you want the object back more than you want to preserve the relationship with your cousins?
Do you want the object back even if it means capitulating to your cousins (for example, maybe they "give" you the item back or "loan" it to you)?
Do you want to be acknowledged as the family head and treated with respect?
Do you want your cousins to admit they are wrong? (This probably won't happen.)
Do you want to help this other family?
Knowing what you want will help you know how to proceed.
posted by Snarl Furillo at 3:51 PM on May 31, 2013
This is not about an object at all, is it. You say it's not about the money as you would never sell it but then someone else's bad fortune precipitated this whole thing.
So either it's about money and you are too proud to admit that. In which case you don't gave your object back because you're not being honest.
If its not about the money, then it's about honour and pride. In which case it's a tough slog. Possession is 9/10s of the law. With heirlooms it can be tough because often one does not own heirlooms as much as tend them.
I don't know what you do, but it has little to do with this object. What happens if you forget the object and go after the real problem?
posted by nickrussell at 4:24 PM on May 31, 2013
So either it's about money and you are too proud to admit that. In which case you don't gave your object back because you're not being honest.
If its not about the money, then it's about honour and pride. In which case it's a tough slog. Possession is 9/10s of the law. With heirlooms it can be tough because often one does not own heirlooms as much as tend them.
I don't know what you do, but it has little to do with this object. What happens if you forget the object and go after the real problem?
posted by nickrussell at 4:24 PM on May 31, 2013
I would approach it in a very friendly, very polite way. Cousin, I was so happy to loan you *item* and I trust it benefited your family. Now I have a friend who badly needs *item* and I am in a bind. I can't afford to purchase another *item* and now I have promised my friend. Please understand my situation, and help me resolve it. I will visit this weekend to retrieve *item*. It will be harder to refuse you in person, go pick it up. If they really won't give it to you, just express your disappointment at length. Then never trust them again.
If you have proof of ownership, police might help you recover *item*, but bringing police into a family matter is effective at burning bridges, and I don't recommend it.
posted by theora55 at 8:19 PM on May 31, 2013
If you have proof of ownership, police might help you recover *item*, but bringing police into a family matter is effective at burning bridges, and I don't recommend it.
posted by theora55 at 8:19 PM on May 31, 2013
The framing of this question is... a bit strange... But what if you were to simply announce that the cousin in possession of the item that you lent them has generously agreed to "pay it forward" and lend it to the family member in need? Don't ask first, just say they are doing the right thing. Either they go along and lend it (mission accomplished) or they don't do so and end up looking like assholes. Either way, additionally, you look like you were trying to get the right outcome for the family member in need (clearly nothing was being done for your own gain, because the item went from asshole cousin to needy family member).
posted by axiom at 9:15 PM on May 31, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by axiom at 9:15 PM on May 31, 2013 [1 favorite]
"Cousin, I'm feeling a bit confused because last July you had said you wanted a little more time with it, which made me think at that point you were clear that it was a loan, not a gift. Either way, I'm sure you can agree that Family X needs it much more than you or I does currently. Why don't we agree to lend the object to them for now, and work out the ownership after we've taken care of these other members of our community?"
It seems like the need of the other family is a key piece here. And I don't want you giving up this object if you're not comfortable with it, but maybe if these relatives don't feel like they're losing it, but rather that they're doing something charitable for someone else and that doing this kind of makes them heroes without losing face, they'll be more likely to pass it along? Then, it's up to you to decide if it's more important for you to get the object back or retain the relationship and worry about setting boundaries more clearly in the future. Either side is of course understandable.
(And of course, they might very well say "nope we're not passing this along!" in which case you're no worse off than you are now, I suppose. And still have to decide between the family relationship or the needs of the new family.)
posted by violetish at 10:07 PM on May 31, 2013
It seems like the need of the other family is a key piece here. And I don't want you giving up this object if you're not comfortable with it, but maybe if these relatives don't feel like they're losing it, but rather that they're doing something charitable for someone else and that doing this kind of makes them heroes without losing face, they'll be more likely to pass it along? Then, it's up to you to decide if it's more important for you to get the object back or retain the relationship and worry about setting boundaries more clearly in the future. Either side is of course understandable.
(And of course, they might very well say "nope we're not passing this along!" in which case you're no worse off than you are now, I suppose. And still have to decide between the family relationship or the needs of the new family.)
posted by violetish at 10:07 PM on May 31, 2013
Response by poster: Thank you for all the answers. It is very valuable for me to know how you all see the situation. I've also noted a lot have favorited samthemander's suggestion, and I'm going with that.
It feels silly that I am so insecure about this - my main concern is that I want to stop that type of behavior, and I'm afraid of encouraging it by letting the item go. But through all your advice I see how I can let it go, but still let be consequential in the longer run.
posted by mumimor at 1:14 AM on June 1, 2013
It feels silly that I am so insecure about this - my main concern is that I want to stop that type of behavior, and I'm afraid of encouraging it by letting the item go. But through all your advice I see how I can let it go, but still let be consequential in the longer run.
posted by mumimor at 1:14 AM on June 1, 2013
I would like to call the police - it's the cheapest solution and the most efficient one.
Just Nthing you will find pursuing it with the police to be a wholly fruitless endeavour - solicitor is the way to go.
posted by smoke at 2:47 AM on June 1, 2013
Just Nthing you will find pursuing it with the police to be a wholly fruitless endeavour - solicitor is the way to go.
posted by smoke at 2:47 AM on June 1, 2013
My guess would be that they sold it long ago and were hoping you'd forget about it. I would suggest you give them a dignified way out of an otherwise impossible situation by asking them to compensate you $2000. If they are affluent this shouldn't be a problem.
posted by Dragonness at 2:52 AM on June 1, 2013
posted by Dragonness at 2:52 AM on June 1, 2013
FWIW, family legend has it that when faced with something (roughly) similar, the head of the family said: "You can have this, but if you take it, you will never talk to me ever again." Basically, 'If you value this more than you value being part of the family, take it.' If they're trying to take advantage of the family, how can they be part of it?
It was that person's choice, and he chose money over family.
The word they used to describe [head of family] was incorruptible.
posted by Comrade_robot at 4:40 AM on June 1, 2013 [8 favorites]
It was that person's choice, and he chose money over family.
The word they used to describe [head of family] was incorruptible.
posted by Comrade_robot at 4:40 AM on June 1, 2013 [8 favorites]
Just my $0.02, but I would really not favor a live-and-let-live approach here. A lack of consequences will reinforce in the cousin's mind the belief that they can get away with such behavior, and thereby encourage them to do it again in the future.
posted by StrawberryPie at 10:33 AM on June 1, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by StrawberryPie at 10:33 AM on June 1, 2013 [1 favorite]
What about using the culture of family to put pressure on these people? If the whole family were to find out about their selfish nature, would that be enough to give them incentive to return the item? Mention to [selfish family] that you intend to put out this information if the item is not returned, and if they continue to be jerks, tell them fine, keep it, then let everyone know.
Put out a duplicate letter to let everyone know that you are there for them, and that you are happy to help when you can, but that you would hope that everyone helped will also be willing to help out other family in need when possible. [Selfish family] was loaned an item when in need, and was asked to return said item, but now won't reciprocate to another. Mention that this is a cycle of kindness/giving that benefits everyone, and if [selfish family] doesn't participate in this cycle, then it hurts the family.
posted by BlueHorse at 12:01 PM on June 1, 2013
Put out a duplicate letter to let everyone know that you are there for them, and that you are happy to help when you can, but that you would hope that everyone helped will also be willing to help out other family in need when possible. [Selfish family] was loaned an item when in need, and was asked to return said item, but now won't reciprocate to another. Mention that this is a cycle of kindness/giving that benefits everyone, and if [selfish family] doesn't participate in this cycle, then it hurts the family.
posted by BlueHorse at 12:01 PM on June 1, 2013
> A lack of consequences will reinforce in the cousin's mind the belief that they can get away with such behavior, and thereby encourage them to do it again in the future.
Yes, but not with mumimor, the original poster.
When it comes to "consequences" and family, the consequences will spread like wildfire. You don't seek justice by burning just one room of the house - you'll burn the whole house down. As others have stated, OP has to decide what's more important - getting the item back, or burning down the house.
posted by Xoebe at 2:53 PM on June 3, 2013 [1 favorite]
Yes, but not with mumimor, the original poster.
When it comes to "consequences" and family, the consequences will spread like wildfire. You don't seek justice by burning just one room of the house - you'll burn the whole house down. As others have stated, OP has to decide what's more important - getting the item back, or burning down the house.
posted by Xoebe at 2:53 PM on June 3, 2013 [1 favorite]
When it comes to "consequences" and family, the consequences will spread like wildfire. You don't seek justice by burning just one room of the house - you'll burn the whole house down.Sure, I certainly understand that, and I never advocated doing something drastic; my comment was really meant as a counterpoint to those who advocated a non-response upthread (though I see now that this connection wasn't at all obvious—sorry about that). Even just doing what samthemander suggested would be enough "consequences".
posted by StrawberryPie at 3:09 PM on June 3, 2013
This thread is closed to new comments.
Regardless, I'd move on. Life is too short.
posted by ian1977 at 1:28 PM on May 31, 2013 [1 favorite]