What are legal ramifications of returning garbage to litterers?
May 18, 2013 4:27 PM Subscribe
What are the legal ramifications of returning garbage to litterers? Like throwing a paper cup back into someone's car after they throw it on the street? Question pertains to Seattle, WA but interested to know for other jurisdictions as well.
This situation just came up. I watched a man throw a plastic bottle from his car window into my neighborhood. My first instinct was to pick it up and throw it back in his car. However, I refrained.
His littering was morally wrong in my book, and also illegal. So returning the garbage to his car would have been morally right by my values. However, I'm wondering about the law. Could I then be considered to be committing a new and separate infraction?
Could I be guilty of littering into his car? Assaulting him? Would the law even take into account that he had just thrown the same bottle on the street? Or would I be viewed the same as if I put my own garbage in his car unprovoked? (how would that be viewed by the law?)
For the purpose of this question, let's ignore what a bad idea this could be for reasons outside the law (getting assaulted, run over or shot).
This situation just came up. I watched a man throw a plastic bottle from his car window into my neighborhood. My first instinct was to pick it up and throw it back in his car. However, I refrained.
His littering was morally wrong in my book, and also illegal. So returning the garbage to his car would have been morally right by my values. However, I'm wondering about the law. Could I then be considered to be committing a new and separate infraction?
Could I be guilty of littering into his car? Assaulting him? Would the law even take into account that he had just thrown the same bottle on the street? Or would I be viewed the same as if I put my own garbage in his car unprovoked? (how would that be viewed by the law?)
For the purpose of this question, let's ignore what a bad idea this could be for reasons outside the law (getting assaulted, run over or shot).
And, not to be too much of a scold, but if you bean the driver with a plastic bottle and the driver swerves into a parked nursery school bus unloading children, guess who's responsible?
posted by snuffleupagus at 4:35 PM on May 18, 2013 [6 favorites]
posted by snuffleupagus at 4:35 PM on May 18, 2013 [6 favorites]
I have often fantasized about doing this but it's not practical. Because yes, you may be guilty of assault. What if you hit them in the eye with the sharp edge of something, or cause some kind of stain to the upholstery? That would be on you and your wallet.
And really, maybe the person is a generally good person who is having a bad day. Maybe they have a stressful job like social work or teaching assistant or a stressful life because they don't know if they're ever going to catch up with their credit card or student loan debt. Maybe they're not a person who would generally litter, but it's been a really bad day, or morning, and the act of casting that garbage into the street is a one-time "fuck you" to the whole world.
Metafilter helped me to become a more thoughtful person in this regard. I'm sure you've heard the (likely misquoted) Plato - "Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle." There is plenty of greed, racism, misogyny and pain in the world that a litterer is maybe not the best place for your rage. But I totally get you! (With me it's cigarette butts. Could I drive ONE commute without seeing multiple cigarette butts fly out of car windows? Arrrrgh.)
posted by Glinn at 4:41 PM on May 18, 2013 [6 favorites]
And really, maybe the person is a generally good person who is having a bad day. Maybe they have a stressful job like social work or teaching assistant or a stressful life because they don't know if they're ever going to catch up with their credit card or student loan debt. Maybe they're not a person who would generally litter, but it's been a really bad day, or morning, and the act of casting that garbage into the street is a one-time "fuck you" to the whole world.
Metafilter helped me to become a more thoughtful person in this regard. I'm sure you've heard the (likely misquoted) Plato - "Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle." There is plenty of greed, racism, misogyny and pain in the world that a litterer is maybe not the best place for your rage. But I totally get you! (With me it's cigarette butts. Could I drive ONE commute without seeing multiple cigarette butts fly out of car windows? Arrrrgh.)
posted by Glinn at 4:41 PM on May 18, 2013 [6 favorites]
I believe there is a litter reporter hotline you can call. Take down the make, model, color and license plate and report them. I did this once when I saw a person open his car door and drop a pizza box onto the street. I don't think anything came of it but it satisfied my "hey asshole" urge. I think I found the number in my jurisdiction by calling the police.
posted by DoubleLune at 4:49 PM on May 18, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by DoubleLune at 4:49 PM on May 18, 2013 [1 favorite]
You would absolutely be committing assault in your example. The person's action of littering would play zero part in this determination. You are literally acting as a vigilante, and the law is very clear that this is a non-starter.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 4:51 PM on May 18, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 4:51 PM on May 18, 2013 [1 favorite]
Try this ... Imagine the person has committed some other kind of crime that involves public activity, and there is no reasonable danger to your property or person. Say, graffiti on a bus stop. You're not entitled to belt the guy, are you? This is the same thing.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 4:54 PM on May 18, 2013
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 4:54 PM on May 18, 2013
And, perhaps more directly to the point, if someone on the street threw a glass bottle at you while you were driving, through open car window (providing no further context) would you wonder if it was assault? Making the bottle plastic and providing that the driver littered the road with it first doesn't change that.
posted by snuffleupagus at 4:59 PM on May 18, 2013
posted by snuffleupagus at 4:59 PM on May 18, 2013
Some group did this, but for fast food places. They brought all the Burger King garbage back to Burger King, Subway to Subway, etc. The point was to get these places to think about their packaging and to perhaps use more biodegradable options and more efficient packaging. I sem to remember it being effective.
In Iowa, we have this "Report litterers" campaign, and I presume other states do as well, so if you had gotten his license plate, you could have reported him, which I am tolkd results in a nasty letter telling him he's a bad person. It is more than a little bit tinged with the idea of getting citizens to inform on other citizens.
I used to prefer my middle finger for such people, but have since decided I am too old to back up my actions and life is too short for assholes. So in this case, I would have picked it up, enjoyed my sense of smug superiority, and gone about my day backing in the delight that I am a better person than this guy. I'm a delusional asshole, but it works for me.
posted by cjorgensen at 5:08 PM on May 18, 2013 [2 favorites]
In Iowa, we have this "Report litterers" campaign, and I presume other states do as well, so if you had gotten his license plate, you could have reported him, which I am tolkd results in a nasty letter telling him he's a bad person. It is more than a little bit tinged with the idea of getting citizens to inform on other citizens.
I used to prefer my middle finger for such people, but have since decided I am too old to back up my actions and life is too short for assholes. So in this case, I would have picked it up, enjoyed my sense of smug superiority, and gone about my day backing in the delight that I am a better person than this guy. I'm a delusional asshole, but it works for me.
posted by cjorgensen at 5:08 PM on May 18, 2013 [2 favorites]
> I believe there is a litter reporter hotline you can call
The Washington State one, where the OP is, is closed because of budget cuts. I think there's still one for lit cigarettes and one for unsecured loads, but not for plain old littering.
posted by The corpse in the library at 5:36 PM on May 18, 2013 [1 favorite]
The Washington State one, where the OP is, is closed because of budget cuts. I think there's still one for lit cigarettes and one for unsecured loads, but not for plain old littering.
posted by The corpse in the library at 5:36 PM on May 18, 2013 [1 favorite]
So returning the garbage to his car would have been morally right by my values.
Two wrongs don't make a right.
posted by waterandrock at 5:41 PM on May 18, 2013
Two wrongs don't make a right.
posted by waterandrock at 5:41 PM on May 18, 2013
My SO did a variant of this that was great. Someone on the train put an not-quite-empty-and-full-of-ice-and-soda-dregs paper soda cup on the floor and it was being kicked over by passengers walking along the narrow corridor on the upper level. She saw this, picked it up, turned around, and asked "did you drop this?" and held it out, not breaking her stare until the dude had to take it back just to make the scary human interaction stop. It was glorious, and legally rock solid. The perfect opportunity for harmless street justice, executed flawlessly.
posted by Space Coyote at 6:08 PM on May 18, 2013 [8 favorites]
posted by Space Coyote at 6:08 PM on May 18, 2013 [8 favorites]
Response by poster: I think I know the clear answer here. But. Would any of you change your input if I hadn't described it as "throwing" the garbage back in the car? What about releasing it gently, with no forward momentum, at the very edge of the window? What about releasing it into the bed of a pickup truck? An open bag someone is carrying? Assuming there is no injury or damage?
And I agree that two wrongs don't make a right. But would you apply that adage to someone who watched an iPhone get stolen mid-phone-call, grabbed the iPhone from the thief, and returned it to the owner? This seems very similar. It's just abandoned property rather than stolen property. I realize that taken to its logical conclusion this would allow murderers to be murdered without trial. But this is a much different degree.
posted by reeddavid at 6:24 PM on May 18, 2013
And I agree that two wrongs don't make a right. But would you apply that adage to someone who watched an iPhone get stolen mid-phone-call, grabbed the iPhone from the thief, and returned it to the owner? This seems very similar. It's just abandoned property rather than stolen property. I realize that taken to its logical conclusion this would allow murderers to be murdered without trial. But this is a much different degree.
posted by reeddavid at 6:24 PM on May 18, 2013
Among the potential legal consequences for you are the situations you excluded by stipulation. Say the dude is armed and a thug and backs up, gets out of his car, and comes after you and you engage and whip his ass but then he pulls a gun in self defense?
A whole chain of very expensive possibilities follows from that scenario, some of them involving dental bills and lawyers' fees, a few involving criminal charges. So among the purportedly extraneous reasons you already know this is a bad idea lie other bases for legal jeopardy, in other words.
posted by spitbull at 6:27 PM on May 18, 2013
A whole chain of very expensive possibilities follows from that scenario, some of them involving dental bills and lawyers' fees, a few involving criminal charges. So among the purportedly extraneous reasons you already know this is a bad idea lie other bases for legal jeopardy, in other words.
posted by spitbull at 6:27 PM on May 18, 2013
Well presumably the naive defense that you were just trying to return something you saw someone drop by accident (Space Coyote's SO's brilliant strategy) would probably prevail in the very unlikely event a gentle act of return ever generated legal action.
posted by spitbull at 6:29 PM on May 18, 2013
posted by spitbull at 6:29 PM on May 18, 2013
As well as being illegal like everyone's saying it's just kinda cowardly too. Be brave and say something if you can, along the lines of "Hey, why did you just throw trash out your window? Please pick that up, people live here!"
posted by Potomac Avenue at 6:32 PM on May 18, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by Potomac Avenue at 6:32 PM on May 18, 2013 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: Potomac Avenue- I actually did engage the guy in a conversation. (Really? You just threw that out the window? Who's going to pick it up? That's OK, it's my neighborhood, I'll pick it up). And he responded in a much less civil way and drove off. Not nearly as satisfying as leaving him with his vitaminwater would have been.
posted by reeddavid at 6:39 PM on May 18, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by reeddavid at 6:39 PM on May 18, 2013 [1 favorite]
I hate littering. However, as much as I have daydreamed about doing something similar, I don't think it comes across as great justice or as something that has the potential to change someone's behavior, as much as it comes across as being a jerk (to whoever is on the receiving end of it). The energy might be better suited to making a point of throwing the item away, which I would actually find a pretty noble gesture if I saw someone doing it. I think that kind of thing would have the ability to change the perceptions of others.
posted by SpacemanStix at 6:43 PM on May 18, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by SpacemanStix at 6:43 PM on May 18, 2013 [2 favorites]
Legally speaking, remember that virtually anything can be made a crime, if the right people want to punish you for having committed a crime. In even the gentlest dropping, you've entered, or caused something to enter, someone else's vehicle. That's gotta be a violation of some specific law. If not, well, then you've done something that's likely to create a public disturbance, or some such general violation of one of the many laws that has been enacted over the years to cover when someone does something that hasn't been specifically outlawed but needs to be stopped (for good or for ill).
You don't have the right to enact moral vengeance on someone for having committed a crime, and that's what you're suggesting here, and you know it, which is why you didn't do it. You're not "returning" the litter, you're punishing a litterer. Which is a fine thing to do, but society does that, not you by yourself.
posted by Etrigan at 7:43 PM on May 18, 2013 [1 favorite]
You don't have the right to enact moral vengeance on someone for having committed a crime, and that's what you're suggesting here, and you know it, which is why you didn't do it. You're not "returning" the litter, you're punishing a litterer. Which is a fine thing to do, but society does that, not you by yourself.
posted by Etrigan at 7:43 PM on May 18, 2013 [1 favorite]
Gently place the bottle in his vehicle while telling him your returning the item he accidently dropped. Should exempt you from breaking a law
posted by 2manyusernames at 8:18 PM on May 18, 2013
posted by 2manyusernames at 8:18 PM on May 18, 2013
If you're going to all this trouble to pick up the garbage, why not just throw it in the trash can? It's a good deed, you can bask in the glow of doing the Right Thing, and you don't have to get a Litter Sherriff badge.
posted by Ideefixe at 8:21 PM on May 18, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by Ideefixe at 8:21 PM on May 18, 2013 [1 favorite]
Not the trash, please -- put that plastic bottle in the recycling.
posted by Rash at 8:27 PM on May 18, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by Rash at 8:27 PM on May 18, 2013 [1 favorite]
I am in Seattle and this Spring I saw someone pitching (multiple!) McDonald's wrappers out of the window of their parked car very close to my house. I had my youngest in the car and I knew if I stopped, I'd yell and swear. So I kept driving. On the way home though, the car was still there (driver gone) and the wrappers still in the street. I picked them up and put them under their wiper. I hate litterers.
I don't think I'd throw trash back at anyone, but it sure was sweet to 'return' what they left.
I've never seen that car parked in our neighborhood since then! ha!
posted by 58 at 8:48 PM on May 18, 2013 [3 favorites]
I don't think I'd throw trash back at anyone, but it sure was sweet to 'return' what they left.
I've never seen that car parked in our neighborhood since then! ha!
posted by 58 at 8:48 PM on May 18, 2013 [3 favorites]
Rather than 'Hey, Asshole', one could smile appreciatively, and say, "Hey, thanks, buddy, I'll just take this over here and put it in the trash! Or, "Hey, let me help you with that, I'll take it home and put it in my garbage for you", or something equally civilized, yet healthily shaming.
Anyway, upon reflecting on the scenario you posited.....I WISH I would think to say something like that, rather than what I generally do; which is to stare at the offender, then at the offensive piece of trash, and blank on coming up with anything of redeeming social value to do, or to say.
posted by mumstheword at 11:58 PM on May 18, 2013
Anyway, upon reflecting on the scenario you posited.....I WISH I would think to say something like that, rather than what I generally do; which is to stare at the offender, then at the offensive piece of trash, and blank on coming up with anything of redeeming social value to do, or to say.
posted by mumstheword at 11:58 PM on May 18, 2013
What about releasing it gently, with no forward momentum, at the very edge of the window? What about releasing it into the bed of a pickup truck? An open bag someone is carrying? Assuming there is no injury or damage?
Doesn't matter. Assault is defined as any intentional unwanted offensive touching of a person's body or items closely associated with said body. Courts have pretty regularly construed doing something to a person's car while they're in it as assault.
Now if they weren't in the car, it wouldn't be assault, because they have to be there. But it'd still be problematic at best.
Basic point: their littering gives you absolutely zero justification for doing anything to them beyond calling the cops. It's not even a misdemeanor, so you, as a private citizen, aren't going to be privileged to take any action at all.
posted by valkyryn at 5:10 AM on May 19, 2013
Doesn't matter. Assault is defined as any intentional unwanted offensive touching of a person's body or items closely associated with said body. Courts have pretty regularly construed doing something to a person's car while they're in it as assault.
Now if they weren't in the car, it wouldn't be assault, because they have to be there. But it'd still be problematic at best.
Basic point: their littering gives you absolutely zero justification for doing anything to them beyond calling the cops. It's not even a misdemeanor, so you, as a private citizen, aren't going to be privileged to take any action at all.
posted by valkyryn at 5:10 AM on May 19, 2013
Always intriguing to read what I presume is a largely American response to a question like this. I'm Australian, and I suspect other Australian MeFites would be much more sympathetic to reeddavid's hypothetical scenario than the overwhelming number of responses I've just read.
I don't know the legal ramifications in Seattle, nor Melbourne Australia. But I have watched a person in the car in front of me get out and return a cigarette butt to the car in front of them. And when it was thrown out again then after returning to his car, get out and do it all again.
I wish I was brave enough to do that (in Australia it's highly unlikely that you're putting yourself in any physical danger by doing such a thing, at least in the morning commute). In fact I wish I had just been brave enough to get out and congratulate the bloke.
posted by puffmoike at 5:42 AM on May 19, 2013 [1 favorite]
I don't know the legal ramifications in Seattle, nor Melbourne Australia. But I have watched a person in the car in front of me get out and return a cigarette butt to the car in front of them. And when it was thrown out again then after returning to his car, get out and do it all again.
I wish I was brave enough to do that (in Australia it's highly unlikely that you're putting yourself in any physical danger by doing such a thing, at least in the morning commute). In fact I wish I had just been brave enough to get out and congratulate the bloke.
posted by puffmoike at 5:42 AM on May 19, 2013 [1 favorite]
The energy you spend properly disposing of the trash would be less than the energy spent finding his house and dumping it on his lawn. In my book, less energy expended is always better.
Plus which, the trash is now where is should be in the first place. Cosmic points for you!
posted by BostonTerrier at 5:48 AM on May 19, 2013 [1 favorite]
Plus which, the trash is now where is should be in the first place. Cosmic points for you!
posted by BostonTerrier at 5:48 AM on May 19, 2013 [1 favorite]
When I was a teenager and riding in the car with my dad, some young dude in the cool car next to us threw a soft drink into our car, whether accidentally or on purpose. The soft drink was in one of those fast food cups, with the lid and straw. It landed on my dad's lap, but miraculously nothing spilled out. My dad, without blinking, took the cup and heaved it back into the other guy's car window. At that point, it burst open and soaked the guy. The expression on his face was priceless.
posted by nanook at 8:07 AM on May 19, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by nanook at 8:07 AM on May 19, 2013 [2 favorites]
When I was a young punk, I did this. To a cop in his car. While yelling something like, "That'll be $50 fine, motherfucker."
Now that I'm a middle aged lady, and all respectable and shit, I'd smile sweetly and say, "Oh dear, I think you dropped this!" and put it on his lap or tuck it under his windshield wiper.
However, I am the same person who has fantasized about carrying Rules of the Road and tossing it into the windows of idiots who cut me off or yell at me when I'm on my bike.
YMMV
posted by RedEmma at 8:15 AM on May 19, 2013
Now that I'm a middle aged lady, and all respectable and shit, I'd smile sweetly and say, "Oh dear, I think you dropped this!" and put it on his lap or tuck it under his windshield wiper.
However, I am the same person who has fantasized about carrying Rules of the Road and tossing it into the windows of idiots who cut me off or yell at me when I'm on my bike.
YMMV
posted by RedEmma at 8:15 AM on May 19, 2013
(The cop was so stunned, they did absolutely nothing. It was Chicago though. And it felt absolutely marvelous.)
posted by RedEmma at 8:16 AM on May 19, 2013
posted by RedEmma at 8:16 AM on May 19, 2013
I've had luck with "Excuse me! I think you dropped something!" in a polite (but not sarcastically so) voice.
posted by The corpse in the library at 8:27 AM on May 19, 2013
posted by The corpse in the library at 8:27 AM on May 19, 2013
Not nearly as satisfying as leaving him with his vitaminwater would have been.
Wouldn't it be more satisfying to throw it away than to aggravate him? Consider that his reaction probably wouldn't be what you'd like it to be. He's less likely to see the error of his ways than to say to himself: "Oh yeah?! I'll show him! I'll litter as much as I want!"
posted by John Cohen at 8:43 AM on May 19, 2013 [1 favorite]
Wouldn't it be more satisfying to throw it away than to aggravate him? Consider that his reaction probably wouldn't be what you'd like it to be. He's less likely to see the error of his ways than to say to himself: "Oh yeah?! I'll show him! I'll litter as much as I want!"
posted by John Cohen at 8:43 AM on May 19, 2013 [1 favorite]
Getting people to stop littering is a hearts and minds sort of campaign. You're not going to get there by being a bigger asshole than they are.
Pick it up and hand it back to them politely saying "Oh, hey, I think you dropped this!" like it was a lost wallet, or pick it up and say "If you don't mind, I'll just put this in the garbage!" or something similar -- something that's very gentle about reminding them that what they did but doesn't involve you being more of a jerk than they were.
Because turning littering into assault is not a proportional response.
posted by jacquilynne at 9:14 AM on May 19, 2013 [2 favorites]
Pick it up and hand it back to them politely saying "Oh, hey, I think you dropped this!" like it was a lost wallet, or pick it up and say "If you don't mind, I'll just put this in the garbage!" or something similar -- something that's very gentle about reminding them that what they did but doesn't involve you being more of a jerk than they were.
Because turning littering into assault is not a proportional response.
posted by jacquilynne at 9:14 AM on May 19, 2013 [2 favorites]
This thread is closed to new comments.
I'd stick with the tried and true "hey asshole!" as it's no more likely to start a fight than chucking someone's refuse at them.
posted by snuffleupagus at 4:29 PM on May 18, 2013 [4 favorites]