Confused by guy's behavior
May 15, 2013 1:50 PM Subscribe
I just had an unsettling dating experience. What exactly happened here?
I apologize for the length. Since I'm confused myself by the course of events, I'm not really sure which details are relevant.
I had a meet cute with a guy three months ago, where we both discovered we had been crushing on each other from afar. We had electric chemistry on our first few dates, both physical and intellectual. He seemed like such a sweet, genuine, direct guy at first. Also cute and intelligent. In contrast to the last guy I dated he took a real interest in me, was considerate and gentlemanly.
On our first date he said more than once, "I know it's crazy but I really like you." He couldn't keep his hands off of me and kept telling me how beautiful he found me. He told me he was looking for a relationship and wanted to make sure I was on the same page. The next morning he asked me out on another date.
We went to a movie a couple of days later and had another magical evening. It turned out the movie we had chosen was a little depressing and I apologized to him that it was a bit of a downer. He whispered in my ear, "I actually like it, and besides we could be watching anything together. I just really like spending time with you."
We had a third date scheduled for that weekend but he cancelled the day of and said something had come up for work. He suggested we go out to dinner in a few days instead, which we did.
At this point I started to get a little nervous that I was going to somehow mess things up because my feelings for him were growing more intense. I'm very shy and anxious when first getting to know somebody. As a result of my nerves our conversation was a bit less flowy but we still had a good time. After I got home I texted him that I'm a bit shy but I really like him and can't wait to get to know him better. He said that he doesn't mind my shyness at all and really likes getting to know me.
A couple of days later he went away for a month on a business trip. During this trip he had full cell phone access but only texted/imed me two or three times. I was a little surprised by that, but the times that he did contact me he said how he couldn't wait to get home and cuddle with me and mentioned places he wanted to go with me and things he wanted to do together.
Two days after he got home from his trip he texted me and apologized for being MIA. He said that we should go out soon. A few days later he asked me out to dinner. The night before our date he cancelled on me and asked if we could meet the night after because something else had come up for work.
I made the mistake of texting him that I was confused by his cancellations and wondering if his interest in me had dwindled. I had a little paranoia left over from the last guy I dated who was constantly cancelling on me, but I should have kept my insecurities in check. I know it was a huge misstep. Separately from his cancellations, I was starting to feel that something was off. In contrast to other guys I've dated he rarely contacted me in between dates. I didn't initiate contact much but on the rare occasions that I sent him a friendly message he would often take a long time to respond. Regretting that first text I sent him another apologizing and saying to please disregard it and that I would be happy to have dinner with him the following evening.
The next morning I got a long email from him that the last thing he wanted me to think was that he had lost interest in me. He said that he really liked me, that it had been two years since his last relationship ended and he was still relearning how to be with a new person, that he was really scared of messing things up, and that a side reason for his rescheduling our date was that he wanted time to clean his apartment. He closed by saying that he couldn't express how much he was looking forward to seeing me again. I was so relieved by his response and I sent him a very appreciative email back. I felt like an idiot for ever questioning his interest.
We had a wonderful date and he gave me a small gift that he had picked up for me on his trip. At the end of the night he invited me into his bed but to my surprise told me he wasn't ready for sex. He said that he had a lot of baggage because his ex girlfriend had really hurt him. Apparently after she broke up with him two years ago, and she stayed friends with him for awhile while she was dating someone new but kept telling him she loved him and wanted to be with him. He sounded very bitter when he mentioned her, as if the wound was still raw. He also said, "I'm a very complicated person" without elaborating on how. I accepted his desire to take things slowly and gave him the benefit of the doubt. I was just a little confused because he took all of my clothes off and wanted to go down on me but would not let me unzip his fly.
Our next date he rescheduled again. At this point I had decided that maybe he was just nervous so I accepted it. We saw a movie that ended at 9 on a Saturday night. I thought we would do something after, like get coffee or whatever, but he told me as soon as we left the theater that he was tired and needed to go home. We had barely spoken because we met at the movie right before it started. He suggested we see each other again in a few days.
On our next date when things moved to the bedroom he asked me to take off my clothes but kept his pants on. Mid-make out he stopped and said, "I'm sorry, I'm still not ready for sex." He said there was a reason but he didn't feel comfortable telling me just yet. Again he wanted to go down on me but wouldn't let me get anywhere near his underwear. He mentioned in the course of this date that he often got panic attacks in college and had to go to the ER for them. This will become relevant later.
The next morning he sent me a long email explaining his hesitation to get intimate. He revealed that he learned a year ago that he has genital herpes but has only ever had one outbreak. He said that he wanted me to get to know him better before he told me, and that he would feel terrible if he ever gave it to me. He said he figured I would never want to see him again, which he could fully understand.
I did a lot of research, gave it some thought, and called him up. At the time he seemed worth it to me because there was so much that I liked about him and I was willing to give things a chance if we were careful. He was drunk when I called. I asked him if he was drinking because of the email and he said yes.
I told him that I wanted to continue seeing him as long as we practiced safe sex. I asked him if he could go on antivirals and he said, "probably...but I would need to talk to my doctor."
I told him I had been feeling that he was keeping me a bit at arm's length and I was wondering if this was the reason. He said that it was.
Then he said something that surprised me-that he wasn't sure if he could do a relationship because he would feel incredibly guilty if he passed anything along to me. I asked him if he was gently saying he didn't want a relationship or if he truly meant he didn't know. He said he meant that he doesn't know -- that he does wants a serious relationship but truly is on the fence about whether he could handle the guilt it would entail because of his STD. He insisted that he has no doubts about me, that I'm wonderful and and it was all the herpes. He told me he wanted to continue seeing me in the hopes that we could have a relationship eventually. I let him know I was OK with taking things slowly. I thought maybe he just needed time to get comfortable with the idea and see that I accepted him.
I remember being kind of surprised that didn't seem especially grateful or relieved that I still wanted to see him. The most he said was, "it's nice to have that off my back because you're the first person I've ever told."
It was after this conversation that everything changed. On our next date it was like the temperature had dropped a degree. I didn't change--I continued to be affectionate and warm--but he was more distant. He also seemed more relaxed, almost smug. It was weird. He started saying a lot of negative things about other people that surprised me and didn't fit with my initial impression of his personality.
Since we were getting close to having sex I told him I needed to make sure that we were exclusive. He sort of dodged the question by saying, "well I'm not seeing anyone else right now..." I told him I meant that I was hoping we could agree to be exclusive but he didn't seem to understand that distinction.
He invited me into his bed again. I asked him if he felt ready for sex and he told me that he was. He wanted to go down on me first but this is something I like to do after penetrative sex because it feels a bit more intimate to me. He put a condom on and we started up. In the middle of it, he lost his erection and pulled out of me and said he still wasn't ready. He told me that he can't get aroused without going down on me first. I explained to him that I usually like to do that after and he turned away from me and said, "I guess we're just incompatible that way." He mentioned again that he is "very complicated." Despite the fact that I wasn't really in the mood for him to go down on me at this point I allowed him to after he kept pushing me for it. I ended up enjoying myself and almost having an orgasm. After we were finished he put himself inside me. Again we had to stop because he wasn't hard enough. He explained that it is difficult for him to enjoy sex with a condom. We fell asleep.
For the record, I don't think the problem was a lack of attraction to me. Up until now he had been all over me and very noticeably hard when we made out, and constantly going on about how hot and beautiful he found me. When he was crushing on me from a distance he was always checking me out, so he at least found me visually appealing.
The next day when we parted ways he was a bit cold: he didn't even hug me or kiss me goodbye and he didn't text me after I got home like he had in the past.
I was uneasy at this point, especially in light of our unresolved exclusivity talk. So I messaged him online and explained the distinction to him that I needed to clarify. I tried to be as gentle about it as I could. I told him that I really like him and understand he wants to take things slowly but for my own sexual health I need to be sure that we're only sleeping with each other as long as we're seeing each other. I explained that's different from him saying that he's not seeing anyone else at the moment because that could change. I told him that I was willing to wait for an official relationship but exclusivity was something I needed while we were having sex.
To my surprise he kind of flipped out. He got cold and defensive, told me he had already explained himself and didn't understand. He agreed begrudgingly to be exclusive but said he wasn't ready to call me his girlfriend yet or make a commitment to me. I told him I was OK with waiting for that--which I honestly was assuming he was being honest that he was dating me with an eventual relationship in mind. I couldn't help but notice the contrast between how understanding I was about his STD with how callous he was when I brought up my own needs.
After this point our "relationship" fizzled. He asked me out for another movie date. Half an hour before I left to meet him he asked me if we could catch a later showing that night because he was feeling sick. When I got there he explained that sometimes he gets stressed out and feels sick after he eats too much.
Again, we met at the theater, again he told me he wanted to go home right after we left. We had a few minutes to talk while we were waiting for the train and we got into a friendly (or so I thought) debate about the movie. But I noticed he seemed offended when I disagreed with his opinion on the movie so I let it drop. On the train I tried to take his hand but he actually refused to let me take it. I asked him what was wrong and he looked away from me and said, "I don't want to talk about it now..." I tried to change the subject but he would barely speak to me.
When we arrived at our stop I suggested we sit down on a bench and talk. He told me he was starting to wonder if we had anything in common because we couldn't even agree on a movie. I was puzzled since I don't remember us having any disagreements before. I told him that I just enjoy debating and he smiled at me and said, "so do I." (?) I said to him that I was puzzled by the change in his behavior since he told me about his STD. He responded me that he does like me and shouldn't have to always show it. He also said he had no idea what change I meant. He mentioned that he was still annoyed by my asking him to clarify the exclusivity. I explained to him again and he didn't seem to understand my reasoning. He suggested that we get to know each other better by going to a park or having dinner. I told him that sounded like a great idea.
When we parted he gave me a kiss and then texted me that he had a "great time."
An hour later I got a text from him: "Timsneezed, why do you like me?" I wrote him a long, sweet email about all the little things I had noticed about him that I liked. The next morning he apologized for his text and said he had been half awake when he sent it but appreciated my response.
The next day I asked him if he wanted to explore a beautiful local botanical garden with me late Sunday morning and maybe get brunch. This was a followup to a plan we had discussed on our last date.
He responded, "maybe...depends on how late in the morning." I wrote back, "No worries, I like to sleep in too. Would you like to go in the early afternoon?" I sent him that text on Friday night and he still hadn't responded by Saturday night. At this point I was feeling very frustrated because I needed to make plans for my day. I asked him if he could let me know either way. He wrote back, "sorry, I'm still not sure how late I'll be out tonight." I wrote back, "That's fine, don't worry about it." I asked him if he'd like to go to this sushi place with me instead some time next week that he had mentioned on our last date. Many hours passed without a response. Finally I wrote him a text basically saying I was confused by his behavior. He said of course he wants to keep seeing me and that he'd love to go to that restaurant.
Two days later I got a text from him early in the morning that basically said, "we need to talk." My heart sank. He asked me if we could talk online that night. I asked him if we could meet in person, figuring he was ending things. He said he couldn't meet in person until the next evening. I was dying with anxiety so I texted him and asked if it was over. He wrote back, "I don't know how to respond to that. No matter what I say to the contrary you will question my interest in you. I can't be in a relationship like that." I apologized for asking and said I would try to make things between us more relaxed. He texted, "why did you ask me that?" I felt foolish for assuming that it was anything bad. The next day when we were planning where to meet he said, "maybe we should just talk online, I don't want to upset you."
During our conversation that night he told me he was having doubts about whether he was ready for a relationship, especially one where he always had to show the other person that he liked them, and that he didn't want to string me along while he was figuring that out. I asked him if he was saying we should stop seeing each other and he said that he wanted to keep seeing me but he just needed to get to know me better to see if he wanted a relationship.
I backed off and didn't initiate anymore contact. A few days later he randomly messaged me online and apologized for being "MIA." A few days after that he asked me out for dinner. This was our last date, a few days ago. We met up at a sushi place. We had a light, friendly conversation about what we'd been up to since we last saw each other. We ate quickly and got our check after 40 minutes. It was a Saturday night and we finished our meal at 830. I asked him if he wanted to walk around the neighborhood or see a movie. He told me he was feeling tired and wanted to just go home. I was hurt and he could tell. He got angry at me and said, "You really harp on things don't you." The second we left the restaurant he said to me, "it's obviously not working between us." We sat down on a bench outside and I asked him why he had cut our date off and he said "our conversations are strained." I started to cry a bit but tried to hide it. He said he thought he could deal with my shyness at first but now wasn't sure if he could. He offered to walk me to my bus stop. Halfway there he abruptly said, "I'm going home now" and started to turn around. I asked him for a hug; he gave me a quick one and then shot off.
I was feeling so vulnerable after what happened that I texted him and asked if he still wanted to get to know me better and suggested we hang out on Tuesday night. He wrote back, "sure sounds good." When I got home I realized what a doormat I was being and finally summoned up the courage to end things.
I sent him an email in which I let out the frustration and resentment that had been building up. I told him I was really hurt that he had cooled off right after we had sex and I accepted his STD, that he had been so cold to me when I had brought up exclusivity, that he been so eager to get away from me tonight and he had denied me the basic courtesy of walking me to my stop. I told him that he had been sweet when we first started dating but he didn't seem to handle stress well, as reflected in his behavior on our date that night. I said that it was probably best if we stopped seeing each other, which I was sure would come as a relief to him.
He sent me back a really angry, spiteful email, telling me that I was self-centered and that was the reason he had suddenly decided not to date me anymore, not because of the sex, not because I was shy, and not because he wasn't ready for a relationship. He told me he had realized our personalities were so different that "we'd NEVER get along." He told me it was incredibly cruel for me to mention his STD (I brought it up only because it was a relevant turning point in his behavior) and that he had somehow known I would throw it back at him. He explained that he was sorry for not walking to me to the bus stop, that he had panicked and just had to "run away." He said "how dare" I judge him on such a trivial test of character. He told me he would have liked to get to know me better but he agreed that it was best now if we didn't see each other again.
I told him never to contact me again. That was it.
I'm still trying to process what happened and kind of baffled by his behavior. It's just bizarre to me how ugly it ended given how sweet he seemed when we first started dating. I don't understand where all this venom of his came from when I ended things.
I guess I'm looking for some insight into what happened.
I apologize for the length. Since I'm confused myself by the course of events, I'm not really sure which details are relevant.
I had a meet cute with a guy three months ago, where we both discovered we had been crushing on each other from afar. We had electric chemistry on our first few dates, both physical and intellectual. He seemed like such a sweet, genuine, direct guy at first. Also cute and intelligent. In contrast to the last guy I dated he took a real interest in me, was considerate and gentlemanly.
On our first date he said more than once, "I know it's crazy but I really like you." He couldn't keep his hands off of me and kept telling me how beautiful he found me. He told me he was looking for a relationship and wanted to make sure I was on the same page. The next morning he asked me out on another date.
We went to a movie a couple of days later and had another magical evening. It turned out the movie we had chosen was a little depressing and I apologized to him that it was a bit of a downer. He whispered in my ear, "I actually like it, and besides we could be watching anything together. I just really like spending time with you."
We had a third date scheduled for that weekend but he cancelled the day of and said something had come up for work. He suggested we go out to dinner in a few days instead, which we did.
At this point I started to get a little nervous that I was going to somehow mess things up because my feelings for him were growing more intense. I'm very shy and anxious when first getting to know somebody. As a result of my nerves our conversation was a bit less flowy but we still had a good time. After I got home I texted him that I'm a bit shy but I really like him and can't wait to get to know him better. He said that he doesn't mind my shyness at all and really likes getting to know me.
A couple of days later he went away for a month on a business trip. During this trip he had full cell phone access but only texted/imed me two or three times. I was a little surprised by that, but the times that he did contact me he said how he couldn't wait to get home and cuddle with me and mentioned places he wanted to go with me and things he wanted to do together.
Two days after he got home from his trip he texted me and apologized for being MIA. He said that we should go out soon. A few days later he asked me out to dinner. The night before our date he cancelled on me and asked if we could meet the night after because something else had come up for work.
I made the mistake of texting him that I was confused by his cancellations and wondering if his interest in me had dwindled. I had a little paranoia left over from the last guy I dated who was constantly cancelling on me, but I should have kept my insecurities in check. I know it was a huge misstep. Separately from his cancellations, I was starting to feel that something was off. In contrast to other guys I've dated he rarely contacted me in between dates. I didn't initiate contact much but on the rare occasions that I sent him a friendly message he would often take a long time to respond. Regretting that first text I sent him another apologizing and saying to please disregard it and that I would be happy to have dinner with him the following evening.
The next morning I got a long email from him that the last thing he wanted me to think was that he had lost interest in me. He said that he really liked me, that it had been two years since his last relationship ended and he was still relearning how to be with a new person, that he was really scared of messing things up, and that a side reason for his rescheduling our date was that he wanted time to clean his apartment. He closed by saying that he couldn't express how much he was looking forward to seeing me again. I was so relieved by his response and I sent him a very appreciative email back. I felt like an idiot for ever questioning his interest.
We had a wonderful date and he gave me a small gift that he had picked up for me on his trip. At the end of the night he invited me into his bed but to my surprise told me he wasn't ready for sex. He said that he had a lot of baggage because his ex girlfriend had really hurt him. Apparently after she broke up with him two years ago, and she stayed friends with him for awhile while she was dating someone new but kept telling him she loved him and wanted to be with him. He sounded very bitter when he mentioned her, as if the wound was still raw. He also said, "I'm a very complicated person" without elaborating on how. I accepted his desire to take things slowly and gave him the benefit of the doubt. I was just a little confused because he took all of my clothes off and wanted to go down on me but would not let me unzip his fly.
Our next date he rescheduled again. At this point I had decided that maybe he was just nervous so I accepted it. We saw a movie that ended at 9 on a Saturday night. I thought we would do something after, like get coffee or whatever, but he told me as soon as we left the theater that he was tired and needed to go home. We had barely spoken because we met at the movie right before it started. He suggested we see each other again in a few days.
On our next date when things moved to the bedroom he asked me to take off my clothes but kept his pants on. Mid-make out he stopped and said, "I'm sorry, I'm still not ready for sex." He said there was a reason but he didn't feel comfortable telling me just yet. Again he wanted to go down on me but wouldn't let me get anywhere near his underwear. He mentioned in the course of this date that he often got panic attacks in college and had to go to the ER for them. This will become relevant later.
The next morning he sent me a long email explaining his hesitation to get intimate. He revealed that he learned a year ago that he has genital herpes but has only ever had one outbreak. He said that he wanted me to get to know him better before he told me, and that he would feel terrible if he ever gave it to me. He said he figured I would never want to see him again, which he could fully understand.
I did a lot of research, gave it some thought, and called him up. At the time he seemed worth it to me because there was so much that I liked about him and I was willing to give things a chance if we were careful. He was drunk when I called. I asked him if he was drinking because of the email and he said yes.
I told him that I wanted to continue seeing him as long as we practiced safe sex. I asked him if he could go on antivirals and he said, "probably...but I would need to talk to my doctor."
I told him I had been feeling that he was keeping me a bit at arm's length and I was wondering if this was the reason. He said that it was.
Then he said something that surprised me-that he wasn't sure if he could do a relationship because he would feel incredibly guilty if he passed anything along to me. I asked him if he was gently saying he didn't want a relationship or if he truly meant he didn't know. He said he meant that he doesn't know -- that he does wants a serious relationship but truly is on the fence about whether he could handle the guilt it would entail because of his STD. He insisted that he has no doubts about me, that I'm wonderful and and it was all the herpes. He told me he wanted to continue seeing me in the hopes that we could have a relationship eventually. I let him know I was OK with taking things slowly. I thought maybe he just needed time to get comfortable with the idea and see that I accepted him.
I remember being kind of surprised that didn't seem especially grateful or relieved that I still wanted to see him. The most he said was, "it's nice to have that off my back because you're the first person I've ever told."
It was after this conversation that everything changed. On our next date it was like the temperature had dropped a degree. I didn't change--I continued to be affectionate and warm--but he was more distant. He also seemed more relaxed, almost smug. It was weird. He started saying a lot of negative things about other people that surprised me and didn't fit with my initial impression of his personality.
Since we were getting close to having sex I told him I needed to make sure that we were exclusive. He sort of dodged the question by saying, "well I'm not seeing anyone else right now..." I told him I meant that I was hoping we could agree to be exclusive but he didn't seem to understand that distinction.
He invited me into his bed again. I asked him if he felt ready for sex and he told me that he was. He wanted to go down on me first but this is something I like to do after penetrative sex because it feels a bit more intimate to me. He put a condom on and we started up. In the middle of it, he lost his erection and pulled out of me and said he still wasn't ready. He told me that he can't get aroused without going down on me first. I explained to him that I usually like to do that after and he turned away from me and said, "I guess we're just incompatible that way." He mentioned again that he is "very complicated." Despite the fact that I wasn't really in the mood for him to go down on me at this point I allowed him to after he kept pushing me for it. I ended up enjoying myself and almost having an orgasm. After we were finished he put himself inside me. Again we had to stop because he wasn't hard enough. He explained that it is difficult for him to enjoy sex with a condom. We fell asleep.
For the record, I don't think the problem was a lack of attraction to me. Up until now he had been all over me and very noticeably hard when we made out, and constantly going on about how hot and beautiful he found me. When he was crushing on me from a distance he was always checking me out, so he at least found me visually appealing.
The next day when we parted ways he was a bit cold: he didn't even hug me or kiss me goodbye and he didn't text me after I got home like he had in the past.
I was uneasy at this point, especially in light of our unresolved exclusivity talk. So I messaged him online and explained the distinction to him that I needed to clarify. I tried to be as gentle about it as I could. I told him that I really like him and understand he wants to take things slowly but for my own sexual health I need to be sure that we're only sleeping with each other as long as we're seeing each other. I explained that's different from him saying that he's not seeing anyone else at the moment because that could change. I told him that I was willing to wait for an official relationship but exclusivity was something I needed while we were having sex.
To my surprise he kind of flipped out. He got cold and defensive, told me he had already explained himself and didn't understand. He agreed begrudgingly to be exclusive but said he wasn't ready to call me his girlfriend yet or make a commitment to me. I told him I was OK with waiting for that--which I honestly was assuming he was being honest that he was dating me with an eventual relationship in mind. I couldn't help but notice the contrast between how understanding I was about his STD with how callous he was when I brought up my own needs.
After this point our "relationship" fizzled. He asked me out for another movie date. Half an hour before I left to meet him he asked me if we could catch a later showing that night because he was feeling sick. When I got there he explained that sometimes he gets stressed out and feels sick after he eats too much.
Again, we met at the theater, again he told me he wanted to go home right after we left. We had a few minutes to talk while we were waiting for the train and we got into a friendly (or so I thought) debate about the movie. But I noticed he seemed offended when I disagreed with his opinion on the movie so I let it drop. On the train I tried to take his hand but he actually refused to let me take it. I asked him what was wrong and he looked away from me and said, "I don't want to talk about it now..." I tried to change the subject but he would barely speak to me.
When we arrived at our stop I suggested we sit down on a bench and talk. He told me he was starting to wonder if we had anything in common because we couldn't even agree on a movie. I was puzzled since I don't remember us having any disagreements before. I told him that I just enjoy debating and he smiled at me and said, "so do I." (?) I said to him that I was puzzled by the change in his behavior since he told me about his STD. He responded me that he does like me and shouldn't have to always show it. He also said he had no idea what change I meant. He mentioned that he was still annoyed by my asking him to clarify the exclusivity. I explained to him again and he didn't seem to understand my reasoning. He suggested that we get to know each other better by going to a park or having dinner. I told him that sounded like a great idea.
When we parted he gave me a kiss and then texted me that he had a "great time."
An hour later I got a text from him: "Timsneezed, why do you like me?" I wrote him a long, sweet email about all the little things I had noticed about him that I liked. The next morning he apologized for his text and said he had been half awake when he sent it but appreciated my response.
The next day I asked him if he wanted to explore a beautiful local botanical garden with me late Sunday morning and maybe get brunch. This was a followup to a plan we had discussed on our last date.
He responded, "maybe...depends on how late in the morning." I wrote back, "No worries, I like to sleep in too. Would you like to go in the early afternoon?" I sent him that text on Friday night and he still hadn't responded by Saturday night. At this point I was feeling very frustrated because I needed to make plans for my day. I asked him if he could let me know either way. He wrote back, "sorry, I'm still not sure how late I'll be out tonight." I wrote back, "That's fine, don't worry about it." I asked him if he'd like to go to this sushi place with me instead some time next week that he had mentioned on our last date. Many hours passed without a response. Finally I wrote him a text basically saying I was confused by his behavior. He said of course he wants to keep seeing me and that he'd love to go to that restaurant.
Two days later I got a text from him early in the morning that basically said, "we need to talk." My heart sank. He asked me if we could talk online that night. I asked him if we could meet in person, figuring he was ending things. He said he couldn't meet in person until the next evening. I was dying with anxiety so I texted him and asked if it was over. He wrote back, "I don't know how to respond to that. No matter what I say to the contrary you will question my interest in you. I can't be in a relationship like that." I apologized for asking and said I would try to make things between us more relaxed. He texted, "why did you ask me that?" I felt foolish for assuming that it was anything bad. The next day when we were planning where to meet he said, "maybe we should just talk online, I don't want to upset you."
During our conversation that night he told me he was having doubts about whether he was ready for a relationship, especially one where he always had to show the other person that he liked them, and that he didn't want to string me along while he was figuring that out. I asked him if he was saying we should stop seeing each other and he said that he wanted to keep seeing me but he just needed to get to know me better to see if he wanted a relationship.
I backed off and didn't initiate anymore contact. A few days later he randomly messaged me online and apologized for being "MIA." A few days after that he asked me out for dinner. This was our last date, a few days ago. We met up at a sushi place. We had a light, friendly conversation about what we'd been up to since we last saw each other. We ate quickly and got our check after 40 minutes. It was a Saturday night and we finished our meal at 830. I asked him if he wanted to walk around the neighborhood or see a movie. He told me he was feeling tired and wanted to just go home. I was hurt and he could tell. He got angry at me and said, "You really harp on things don't you." The second we left the restaurant he said to me, "it's obviously not working between us." We sat down on a bench outside and I asked him why he had cut our date off and he said "our conversations are strained." I started to cry a bit but tried to hide it. He said he thought he could deal with my shyness at first but now wasn't sure if he could. He offered to walk me to my bus stop. Halfway there he abruptly said, "I'm going home now" and started to turn around. I asked him for a hug; he gave me a quick one and then shot off.
I was feeling so vulnerable after what happened that I texted him and asked if he still wanted to get to know me better and suggested we hang out on Tuesday night. He wrote back, "sure sounds good." When I got home I realized what a doormat I was being and finally summoned up the courage to end things.
I sent him an email in which I let out the frustration and resentment that had been building up. I told him I was really hurt that he had cooled off right after we had sex and I accepted his STD, that he had been so cold to me when I had brought up exclusivity, that he been so eager to get away from me tonight and he had denied me the basic courtesy of walking me to my stop. I told him that he had been sweet when we first started dating but he didn't seem to handle stress well, as reflected in his behavior on our date that night. I said that it was probably best if we stopped seeing each other, which I was sure would come as a relief to him.
He sent me back a really angry, spiteful email, telling me that I was self-centered and that was the reason he had suddenly decided not to date me anymore, not because of the sex, not because I was shy, and not because he wasn't ready for a relationship. He told me he had realized our personalities were so different that "we'd NEVER get along." He told me it was incredibly cruel for me to mention his STD (I brought it up only because it was a relevant turning point in his behavior) and that he had somehow known I would throw it back at him. He explained that he was sorry for not walking to me to the bus stop, that he had panicked and just had to "run away." He said "how dare" I judge him on such a trivial test of character. He told me he would have liked to get to know me better but he agreed that it was best now if we didn't see each other again.
I told him never to contact me again. That was it.
I'm still trying to process what happened and kind of baffled by his behavior. It's just bizarre to me how ugly it ended given how sweet he seemed when we first started dating. I don't understand where all this venom of his came from when I ended things.
I guess I'm looking for some insight into what happened.
The second we left the restaurant he said to me, "it's obviously not working between us."
He told you what's going on. You just don't like his answer.
posted by xingcat at 1:57 PM on May 15, 2013 [6 favorites]
He told you what's going on. You just don't like his answer.
posted by xingcat at 1:57 PM on May 15, 2013 [6 favorites]
Wow, that's a novel right there. I read the whole thing (almost, sorry), but I don't have any insight for you. And that's my insight. It just didn't work out. I wouldn't kill yourself to try to get anything more out of it than that. He's not the guy for you. Sayanara, senor! Off to better things- and they're out there, I promise.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 1:58 PM on May 15, 2013 [7 favorites]
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 1:58 PM on May 15, 2013 [7 favorites]
Best answer: What happened is that this guy is crazy. If you want a specific diagnosis, I don't think we can really give you one. He dropped effusive praise on you way too early on because he is crazy. His behavioral shift happened because he is crazy. The way he tried to gaslight you and play air hockey with your brain happened because he is crazy.
In terms of what specifically happened between you and him - and I am not trying to be a jerk when I say this - it happened in part because you kept pushing through while warning signs piled up.
You need to start having more faith in yourself and placing more value on yourself, on your time and your company. The point at which you were worried that you might mess things up is honestly the point at which you should have been worrying that he might mess things up.
posted by FAMOUS MONSTER at 2:01 PM on May 15, 2013 [108 favorites]
In terms of what specifically happened between you and him - and I am not trying to be a jerk when I say this - it happened in part because you kept pushing through while warning signs piled up.
You need to start having more faith in yourself and placing more value on yourself, on your time and your company. The point at which you were worried that you might mess things up is honestly the point at which you should have been worrying that he might mess things up.
posted by FAMOUS MONSTER at 2:01 PM on May 15, 2013 [108 favorites]
Yeah, that was just a relationship that didn't work out. Sometimes relationships just don't work out, there isn't some grand issue or personality flaw or anything, the relationship just doesn't work out.
I will say this though, You shouldn't have to ask someone if they actually like you that many times. Here's the thing if you have to keep asking that means that the other person isn't giving you the signals/interest that you need. This isn't a personality flaw it is just two different personalities, clearly you need someone more demonstrative, go find someone like that, they do exist. This also happens when the guy is throwing out major warning signs (which I think is what happened here). Next time you feel like you need to keep asking, really look at the relationship and see why you need this constant reassurance, is it possibly because you two aren't actually compatible? Is it because he is actually kinda treating you like crap?
posted by magnetsphere at 2:04 PM on May 15, 2013 [5 favorites]
I will say this though, You shouldn't have to ask someone if they actually like you that many times. Here's the thing if you have to keep asking that means that the other person isn't giving you the signals/interest that you need. This isn't a personality flaw it is just two different personalities, clearly you need someone more demonstrative, go find someone like that, they do exist. This also happens when the guy is throwing out major warning signs (which I think is what happened here). Next time you feel like you need to keep asking, really look at the relationship and see why you need this constant reassurance, is it possibly because you two aren't actually compatible? Is it because he is actually kinda treating you like crap?
posted by magnetsphere at 2:04 PM on May 15, 2013 [5 favorites]
When I got home I realized what a doormat I was being and finally summoned up the courage to end things.
Good for you. What a ping-pong match reading your account of him going back and forth, I can't imagine being the target of that behavior!
All I can say is live and learn, and next time don't doubt yourself. Walk away when you begin to feel you're being played, not when it's gone on and on and on.
posted by headnsouth at 2:06 PM on May 15, 2013 [9 favorites]
Good for you. What a ping-pong match reading your account of him going back and forth, I can't imagine being the target of that behavior!
All I can say is live and learn, and next time don't doubt yourself. Walk away when you begin to feel you're being played, not when it's gone on and on and on.
posted by headnsouth at 2:06 PM on May 15, 2013 [9 favorites]
Yeah, IMHO you went waaay out of your way to extend the proverbial olive branch, and this guy is just too immature or maladjusted to get how relationships work. You sound lovely, and based on your description I'd say you did absolutely nothing wrong. Get right back out there!
posted by eggman at 2:10 PM on May 15, 2013 [10 favorites]
posted by eggman at 2:10 PM on May 15, 2013 [10 favorites]
I hope that you're not working through this in your head and thinking that YOU messed things up but that you clearly see that HE messed things up, as FAMOUS MONSTER said.
He told you what's going on. You just don't like his answer.
There's a difference between not liking an answer and trying to understand one (which is what I think you're asking for help in doing). His behavior was bullshit but don't beat yourself up for not seeing it or putting up with it for minute there. We've all done it, you're not alone, it happens and it sucks. But do your best to sort of flag this kind of behavior in your head so that you can bolt from it in the future.
Good luck. This fella sounds like a mess and it sounds like you dodged a bullet by standing up for yourself and taking the train out of Dodge. Good on you :).
posted by youandiandaflame at 2:11 PM on May 15, 2013 [5 favorites]
He told you what's going on. You just don't like his answer.
There's a difference between not liking an answer and trying to understand one (which is what I think you're asking for help in doing). His behavior was bullshit but don't beat yourself up for not seeing it or putting up with it for minute there. We've all done it, you're not alone, it happens and it sucks. But do your best to sort of flag this kind of behavior in your head so that you can bolt from it in the future.
Good luck. This fella sounds like a mess and it sounds like you dodged a bullet by standing up for yourself and taking the train out of Dodge. Good on you :).
posted by youandiandaflame at 2:11 PM on May 15, 2013 [5 favorites]
Best answer: Anyone who says "I'm a very complicated person" is probably a just a melodramatic head-case.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 2:11 PM on May 15, 2013 [178 favorites]
posted by Potomac Avenue at 2:11 PM on May 15, 2013 [178 favorites]
This guy sounds like a self-centered jerk who's way too wrapped up in his own "complicated" issues to be a good partner.
I told him never to contact me again. That was it.
Awesome. Stick with that.
posted by prize bull octorok at 2:12 PM on May 15, 2013 [25 favorites]
I told him never to contact me again. That was it.
Awesome. Stick with that.
posted by prize bull octorok at 2:12 PM on May 15, 2013 [25 favorites]
Best answer: If I had to hazard a guess, I'd say that he was afraid no one would want him if he disclosed his STD status. He was the best version of himself, or a version he thought would be a person others would want to date. Once he got the acceptance he wanted, he became cold. Maybe he used you. Maybe he felt bad because he wasn't as into you as he thought. Maybe he's just a jerk. It's hard to tell. In any case, he's not really into you now, regardless.
posted by mikeh at 2:14 PM on May 15, 2013 [5 favorites]
posted by mikeh at 2:14 PM on May 15, 2013 [5 favorites]
Best answer: There is a species of guy who starts off all strong and into you, and as you continue to date and begin to like him, he backs away, it's a game to him.
If you're confused, you have every right to question what is happening. You should be perfectly comfortable saying to someone, "You've rescheduled on me 4 times so far, what's going on?" That's not needy, that's questioning some seriously rude behavior.
This guy is a disaster, you're well out of it. You're remembering the first week or so when you were getting what you needed from the relationship. That's way too easy to do.
The entirety of this mini-dating-relationshippy was pretty fucked up.
If you felt appreciated and cherished and liked, you wouldn't have been anxious. That's pretty much on him. His actions dictated your anxiety.
He's blaming you because he's a trifling piece of shit and I'm pretty sure that this is how all of his relationships end.
Don't dwell a minute longer on this. You had a nice time, while it was nice, it didn't stay nice for long.
You sound very nice, and a bit reserved, and that's perfectly okay. You'll find someone who will appreciate you just as you are, and when you do, you'll be amazed at how easy and carefree it is.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 2:15 PM on May 15, 2013 [35 favorites]
If you're confused, you have every right to question what is happening. You should be perfectly comfortable saying to someone, "You've rescheduled on me 4 times so far, what's going on?" That's not needy, that's questioning some seriously rude behavior.
This guy is a disaster, you're well out of it. You're remembering the first week or so when you were getting what you needed from the relationship. That's way too easy to do.
The entirety of this mini-dating-relationshippy was pretty fucked up.
If you felt appreciated and cherished and liked, you wouldn't have been anxious. That's pretty much on him. His actions dictated your anxiety.
He's blaming you because he's a trifling piece of shit and I'm pretty sure that this is how all of his relationships end.
Don't dwell a minute longer on this. You had a nice time, while it was nice, it didn't stay nice for long.
You sound very nice, and a bit reserved, and that's perfectly okay. You'll find someone who will appreciate you just as you are, and when you do, you'll be amazed at how easy and carefree it is.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 2:15 PM on May 15, 2013 [35 favorites]
To get this out of the way: it sounds like maybe you were needing more reassurance from him than he was comfortable giving. However, it seems obvious you were maybe being a little needy about that because of his dramatic, weird behavior shift—if I were you, I'm sure I would have done the same thing! As I was reading your whole story, at first I thought this guy had a micro penis or something. After the herpes thing was revealed, that kiiiiiind of explained his sexual issues, but really, if that was it then he would have loosened up after the reveal and you would have had some great sex and grown closer. That's not what happened at all, so I think he has some other issues about sex.
In all, don't worry about you being the problem; I think in your next dating attempt with someone that's not "a very complicated person" (ugh, lame), you'll do just fine.
posted by Eicats at 2:16 PM on May 15, 2013 [3 favorites]
In all, don't worry about you being the problem; I think in your next dating attempt with someone that's not "a very complicated person" (ugh, lame), you'll do just fine.
posted by Eicats at 2:16 PM on May 15, 2013 [3 favorites]
Best answer: I've had my share of terrible relationships and really great ones. The thing that differentiated the two categories was honesty, respect and consideration. This guy may have showed initial promise but that facade wore off quickly enough to cause you to feel insecure and uncertain about his feelings for you, confusion because he was saying one thing and contradicting that with his behavior.
He was not forthright with you, he seduced and drew you in so he could have what he wanted from you and when you resisted, questioned or drew a boundary, he showed you who he truly was.. What I've come away from all of my loves, heartbreaks and back again is to judge a person by their actions. If the gap between what they say and what they do is too wide, disappointment is inevitable. I have strangers on the street tell me they love me. I love Diet Coke way too much. "Love" is a word, a feeling, which is mostly fluff unless it's followed up with action.
I'm relieved for you because you're no longer with him. Take care timesneezed, you have my sympathy.
posted by loquat at 2:17 PM on May 15, 2013 [7 favorites]
He was not forthright with you, he seduced and drew you in so he could have what he wanted from you and when you resisted, questioned or drew a boundary, he showed you who he truly was.. What I've come away from all of my loves, heartbreaks and back again is to judge a person by their actions. If the gap between what they say and what they do is too wide, disappointment is inevitable. I have strangers on the street tell me they love me. I love Diet Coke way too much. "Love" is a word, a feeling, which is mostly fluff unless it's followed up with action.
I'm relieved for you because you're no longer with him. Take care timesneezed, you have my sympathy.
posted by loquat at 2:17 PM on May 15, 2013 [7 favorites]
Best answer: He's right, he's complicated, and I don't mean that in a good way. He sounds moody, insecure, and burdened with a lot of baggage. You don't need a guy like this.
posted by Dansaman at 2:19 PM on May 15, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by Dansaman at 2:19 PM on May 15, 2013 [2 favorites]
Best answer: "I told him never to contact me again. That was it."
Awesome, this askme already has a good ending! He sounds like a jerk who was happy to lie about his STD by omission, felt entitled to make decisions about your sexual health for you, was insecure about his ability to maintain an erection and happy to take all of that out on you.
The whole INSTANT CONNECTION thing a lot of guys seem to have a penchant for has been really strongly correlated with these kinds of issues in my experience and I've always taken it as a red flag. Real and genuinely intimate connects just don't happen that fast, and when they seem to it is generally a sign that the person is either having a connection with something they were already connected to, like the idea of having a girlfriend, or being actively manipulated by someone doing that. It sounds like he was using you as a way to have a girlfriend, and to act out the narratives he has in his head that guide his ideas of what that should look like, but when the play didn't go as scheduled he bailed.
Red flags I saw before his big reveal
eggman speaks wisdom, you did nothing wrong and if anything just gave this guy way to much benefit of the doubt.
posted by Blasdelb at 2:20 PM on May 15, 2013 [50 favorites]
Awesome, this askme already has a good ending! He sounds like a jerk who was happy to lie about his STD by omission, felt entitled to make decisions about your sexual health for you, was insecure about his ability to maintain an erection and happy to take all of that out on you.
The whole INSTANT CONNECTION thing a lot of guys seem to have a penchant for has been really strongly correlated with these kinds of issues in my experience and I've always taken it as a red flag. Real and genuinely intimate connects just don't happen that fast, and when they seem to it is generally a sign that the person is either having a connection with something they were already connected to, like the idea of having a girlfriend, or being actively manipulated by someone doing that. It sounds like he was using you as a way to have a girlfriend, and to act out the narratives he has in his head that guide his ideas of what that should look like, but when the play didn't go as scheduled he bailed.
Red flags I saw before his big reveal
eggman: "Yeah, IMHO you went waaay out of your way to extend the proverbial olive branch, and this guy is just too immature or maladjusted to get how relationships work. You sound lovely, and based on your description I'd say you did absolutely nothing wrong. Get right back out there!"Being sneaky at all about his potential impact on your health
The instant intimacy he felt he had
"I'm a very complicated person" is code for expect inexcusable bullshit even I don't understand
Any dramatic shift in personality like the one you saw
Just blowing you off in a hard-thing-avoidant way without explanation is, in addition to just rude, an indication that hard-thing-avoidance is a shitty coping mechanism you could expect from him in the future.
Getting cold and defensive in any kind of talk about stuff that should be happy, like relationship plans and status. To be clear not wanting commitment right away is not a bad thing unless that is important to you, but being shitty about it is inexcusable.
eggman speaks wisdom, you did nothing wrong and if anything just gave this guy way to much benefit of the doubt.
posted by Blasdelb at 2:20 PM on May 15, 2013 [50 favorites]
There is a species of guy who starts off all strong and into you, and as you continue to date and begin to like him, he backs away, it's a game to him.
Yes. I have dated about a billion of these people. In fact, when I read the bit about "I could be seeing any movie, I'm just glad we're spending time together" I knew what was coming.
You seem like a nice person and I wouldn't want you to put your guard up too much in future dating situations, but yeah there are people who do this. I've learned to be a bit wary of people who are all about the compliments, especially if they're just getting to know me.
I think you focus too much on what you're doing "wrong," - apologizing about the movie, feeling like you made a mistake texting him to say you were concerned about the cancellations...
I don't think you did anything horribly wrong here. It's clear you felt insecure basically throughout the relationship, but I think that's understandable -- pn preview I agree with this:
To get this out of the way: it sounds like maybe you were needing more reassurance from him than he was comfortable giving. However, it seems obvious you were maybe being a little needy about that because of his dramatic, weird behavior shift—if I were you, I'm sure I would have done the same thing!
on the one hand, I could see how your need for reassurance as presented could feel excessive. On the other, he was sending you a lot of mixed signals that may have pushed you into needing such reassurance. I would say next time, if you're feeling that insecurity just downgrade the relationship in your mind for a bit. Just...care a bit less. This works especially if you're still in the nonexclusive/casual period of course.
posted by sweetkid at 2:21 PM on May 15, 2013 [6 favorites]
Yes. I have dated about a billion of these people. In fact, when I read the bit about "I could be seeing any movie, I'm just glad we're spending time together" I knew what was coming.
You seem like a nice person and I wouldn't want you to put your guard up too much in future dating situations, but yeah there are people who do this. I've learned to be a bit wary of people who are all about the compliments, especially if they're just getting to know me.
I think you focus too much on what you're doing "wrong," - apologizing about the movie, feeling like you made a mistake texting him to say you were concerned about the cancellations...
I don't think you did anything horribly wrong here. It's clear you felt insecure basically throughout the relationship, but I think that's understandable -- pn preview I agree with this:
To get this out of the way: it sounds like maybe you were needing more reassurance from him than he was comfortable giving. However, it seems obvious you were maybe being a little needy about that because of his dramatic, weird behavior shift—if I were you, I'm sure I would have done the same thing!
on the one hand, I could see how your need for reassurance as presented could feel excessive. On the other, he was sending you a lot of mixed signals that may have pushed you into needing such reassurance. I would say next time, if you're feeling that insecurity just downgrade the relationship in your mind for a bit. Just...care a bit less. This works especially if you're still in the nonexclusive/casual period of course.
posted by sweetkid at 2:21 PM on May 15, 2013 [6 favorites]
Ruthless Bunny: "He's blaming you because he's a trifling piece of shit and I'm pretty sure that this is how all of his relationships end. "
Yeah, pretty much this.
posted by Blasdelb at 2:21 PM on May 15, 2013 [14 favorites]
Yeah, pretty much this.
posted by Blasdelb at 2:21 PM on May 15, 2013 [14 favorites]
He wasn't the guy you thought he was in the beginning. He didn't change.
He just stopped acting like the guy you thought he was or wanted him to be. He showed you the "Good side" - although his good side was just flattering you, not really treating you right. That is words versus actions right there.
Now he showed you his real side. Again, he didn't change, you just know who he is now, and who he is sucks.
posted by Crystalinne at 2:23 PM on May 15, 2013 [4 favorites]
He just stopped acting like the guy you thought he was or wanted him to be. He showed you the "Good side" - although his good side was just flattering you, not really treating you right. That is words versus actions right there.
Now he showed you his real side. Again, he didn't change, you just know who he is now, and who he is sucks.
posted by Crystalinne at 2:23 PM on May 15, 2013 [4 favorites]
When I got home I realized what a doormat I was being and finally summoned up the courage to end things.
Phew!
I sent him an email in which I let out the frustration and resentment that had been building up.
Oops. That's just a way to build up drama. You want to break up, break up. You want to explore everything about the relationship you are ending and get explanations, you go to a therapist or go out for drinks with friends and bitch about him for a few hours.
posted by jacalata at 2:23 PM on May 15, 2013 [11 favorites]
Phew!
I sent him an email in which I let out the frustration and resentment that had been building up.
Oops. That's just a way to build up drama. You want to break up, break up. You want to explore everything about the relationship you are ending and get explanations, you go to a therapist or go out for drinks with friends and bitch about him for a few hours.
posted by jacalata at 2:23 PM on May 15, 2013 [11 favorites]
God this guy is such a jerk. So many mind games! You were polite, friendly, communicative and understanding. You were NOT "asking for too much" or anything like that. Do not doubt yourself. I've been in exactly this situation and thought it was me and blamed myself, and obsessed about it indefinitely. It's a total waste of time.
Also, seconding the response: "I'm a very complicated person" is a sign to stay FAR away from that person.
I know that you have had other bad dating experiences from your posting history here. This is not because you're doing anything wrong. It's pretty normal to have a run of crappy mini-relationships until you have a good one. The good ones last longer and are way easier.
Everyone told me this and I didn't believe them: You will have a great, easy relationship with an awesome person, very soon. You just have to wade through a lot of crap first.
posted by 3491again at 2:26 PM on May 15, 2013 [4 favorites]
Also, seconding the response: "I'm a very complicated person" is a sign to stay FAR away from that person.
I know that you have had other bad dating experiences from your posting history here. This is not because you're doing anything wrong. It's pretty normal to have a run of crappy mini-relationships until you have a good one. The good ones last longer and are way easier.
Everyone told me this and I didn't believe them: You will have a great, easy relationship with an awesome person, very soon. You just have to wade through a lot of crap first.
posted by 3491again at 2:26 PM on May 15, 2013 [4 favorites]
baffled by his behavior. It's just bizarre to me how ugly it ended given how sweet he seemed when we first started dating.
Everyone is sweet at first, even jerks and people who are entirely unready / unwilling / unable to be a reliable partner. There's no mystery there. You just got to see a little deeper.
To me, the most telling part of this is how he criticized your need for reassurance while also saying he wasn't sure he wanted to be with you. "I'm not sure I want to be in a relationship with you... Why do you think we might be breaking up? You're so insecure, sheesh! It's ruining this relationship." Nice one, dude. ;)
I wouldn't let any of his feedback get to you. If you have a lesson to learn, learn it based on patterns from multiple relationships. This guy doesn't sound like a reliable witness.
posted by salvia at 2:27 PM on May 15, 2013 [9 favorites]
Everyone is sweet at first, even jerks and people who are entirely unready / unwilling / unable to be a reliable partner. There's no mystery there. You just got to see a little deeper.
To me, the most telling part of this is how he criticized your need for reassurance while also saying he wasn't sure he wanted to be with you. "I'm not sure I want to be in a relationship with you... Why do you think we might be breaking up? You're so insecure, sheesh! It's ruining this relationship." Nice one, dude. ;)
I wouldn't let any of his feedback get to you. If you have a lesson to learn, learn it based on patterns from multiple relationships. This guy doesn't sound like a reliable witness.
posted by salvia at 2:27 PM on May 15, 2013 [9 favorites]
Best answer: This guy knew just enough and tried just hard enough to be dangerous for you.
He didnt have sex with you without telling you about the STD, but he wan't exactly up front about it. He payed a lot of attention to you, but he didn't exactly make you feel respected and valued.
You should not feel bad about being taken in by this kind of behavior. It's hard to straight up cut someone off if they are being all dramatown about a real issue (his insecurity about dating while having an STD). I believe him that he had immense amounts of guilt, but feeling guilty doesn't automatically earn you good person points. In fact, guilt can be just as corrosive as anger or arrogance or whatever else if you're a narcissistic asshole. He made it YOUR problem. Sex on his terms because he has issues. Dating on his terms because he can't be bothered to listen to you. When you pointed this out to him, you were asking him to be a grown up vs adhering to the absolute lowest bar of dating behavior and he flipped out because he's a child. He's never going to see that he was in the wrong because he isn't sincerely trying to be a decent person, he's just trying to avoid feeling guilty while still maybe indulging in this oh poor me routine that is such a waste of time.
You didn't do anything wrong, and I'm sure you'll be able to spot even more red flags earlier and act on them sooner in the future.
posted by skrozidile at 2:28 PM on May 15, 2013 [6 favorites]
He didnt have sex with you without telling you about the STD, but he wan't exactly up front about it. He payed a lot of attention to you, but he didn't exactly make you feel respected and valued.
You should not feel bad about being taken in by this kind of behavior. It's hard to straight up cut someone off if they are being all dramatown about a real issue (his insecurity about dating while having an STD). I believe him that he had immense amounts of guilt, but feeling guilty doesn't automatically earn you good person points. In fact, guilt can be just as corrosive as anger or arrogance or whatever else if you're a narcissistic asshole. He made it YOUR problem. Sex on his terms because he has issues. Dating on his terms because he can't be bothered to listen to you. When you pointed this out to him, you were asking him to be a grown up vs adhering to the absolute lowest bar of dating behavior and he flipped out because he's a child. He's never going to see that he was in the wrong because he isn't sincerely trying to be a decent person, he's just trying to avoid feeling guilty while still maybe indulging in this oh poor me routine that is such a waste of time.
You didn't do anything wrong, and I'm sure you'll be able to spot even more red flags earlier and act on them sooner in the future.
posted by skrozidile at 2:28 PM on May 15, 2013 [6 favorites]
Yes. I have dated about a billion of these people. In fact, when I read the bit about "I could be seeing any movie, I'm just glad we're spending time together" I knew what was coming.
Ditto. The Instant Connection guy almost always turns sour, because the reason he has this so-called Instant Connection is because he is in love with something that isn't you -- the idea he has of you in his head, or any number of things. Super Into You Right Off the Bat Guy hardly ever works out. This is different, I think, from having a crush on someone or having good chemistry immediately or thinking someone is awesome when you meet them. There is just something about The Dude Who Talks About How Into You He Is Before He Even Really Knows You that usually equals CRAZY.
You didn't do anything wrong. He's a bad egg and you're better off without his Crazy in your life.
posted by Countess Sandwich at 2:29 PM on May 15, 2013 [25 favorites]
Ditto. The Instant Connection guy almost always turns sour, because the reason he has this so-called Instant Connection is because he is in love with something that isn't you -- the idea he has of you in his head, or any number of things. Super Into You Right Off the Bat Guy hardly ever works out. This is different, I think, from having a crush on someone or having good chemistry immediately or thinking someone is awesome when you meet them. There is just something about The Dude Who Talks About How Into You He Is Before He Even Really Knows You that usually equals CRAZY.
You didn't do anything wrong. He's a bad egg and you're better off without his Crazy in your life.
posted by Countess Sandwich at 2:29 PM on May 15, 2013 [25 favorites]
Best answer: I'd guess that you put more thought & effort into this question than he put into the entire series of dates & other interactions.
posted by UbuRoivas at 2:31 PM on May 15, 2013 [28 favorites]
posted by UbuRoivas at 2:31 PM on May 15, 2013 [28 favorites]
He's shitty. He was faking not being a complete bag of dicks. You, in contrast, sound pretty awesome.
posted by en forme de poire at 2:37 PM on May 15, 2013 [16 favorites]
posted by en forme de poire at 2:37 PM on May 15, 2013 [16 favorites]
I agree with the other folks who said that the e-mail detailing your frustrations was unnecessary. He knew EXACTLY what he was doing and didn't need confirmation. If this ever happens again just ditch the asshole with a simple goodbye and good luck. It'll drive him nuts.
posted by elsietheeel at 2:41 PM on May 15, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by elsietheeel at 2:41 PM on May 15, 2013 [2 favorites]
I'm no shrink... but reading this I kinda felt like, "Hmm... this sounds like what I've heard about Borderline Personality Disorder" and I do think a lot this fits his behavior.
But I'm probably full of hot air, and it doesn't matter regardless. Just be glad he's not in your life anymore.
posted by Asparagus at 2:42 PM on May 15, 2013 [2 favorites]
But I'm probably full of hot air, and it doesn't matter regardless. Just be glad he's not in your life anymore.
posted by Asparagus at 2:42 PM on May 15, 2013 [2 favorites]
Best answer: He mentioned again that he is "very complicated."
Some people lack much insight into their own heads, and find themselves caught up in a weird maelstrom of thoughts and feelings which change from moment to moment. And they notice that other people don't seem to do this, and don't change their minds abut relationships from day to day, and instead seem to know what they want and stick to it. They see this difference, but rather than think "hmm, maybe I too need to get my act together", they think "clearly these people lack my deep inner complexity!"
No. They're not more complicated. They just don't have their act together. And you're not required to be the adoring audience going along with someone's every conflicted whim (let's be together! let's not! let's meet tonight! let's not! let's have sex my way, because my feelings matter more than yours!) just because he's in love with his own feelings. If it helps, you can imagine him moodily reciting his own poetry into a mirror while you move on with your great and happy life.
posted by Catseye at 2:53 PM on May 15, 2013 [49 favorites]
Some people lack much insight into their own heads, and find themselves caught up in a weird maelstrom of thoughts and feelings which change from moment to moment. And they notice that other people don't seem to do this, and don't change their minds abut relationships from day to day, and instead seem to know what they want and stick to it. They see this difference, but rather than think "hmm, maybe I too need to get my act together", they think "clearly these people lack my deep inner complexity!"
No. They're not more complicated. They just don't have their act together. And you're not required to be the adoring audience going along with someone's every conflicted whim (let's be together! let's not! let's meet tonight! let's not! let's have sex my way, because my feelings matter more than yours!) just because he's in love with his own feelings. If it helps, you can imagine him moodily reciting his own poetry into a mirror while you move on with your great and happy life.
posted by Catseye at 2:53 PM on May 15, 2013 [49 favorites]
As a romantic partner, this guy is a grade-A poop. Hot and cold, "complicated," hypocritical and unkind. You guys may have had good chemistry, he may have acted nice in the beginning, and it's not your fault for not noticing that he was a grade-A poop back then, but he has definitely shown his true stinky spots now and you are lucky to get out this quickly. I'm sorry, Timsneezed, and I hope you don't take it personally, it happens to almost everybody. You sound pretty great (kind, smart, decent boundaries, ready to take some risks for someone you like) and I hope you soon meet a person who deserves you. This was not that guy.
Bonus: If he ever does contact you again, just block/delete/hang up, even if he's trying to apologize or pick up a sweater or something. You don't need the head games.
posted by feets at 3:02 PM on May 15, 2013 [5 favorites]
Bonus: If he ever does contact you again, just block/delete/hang up, even if he's trying to apologize or pick up a sweater or something. You don't need the head games.
posted by feets at 3:02 PM on May 15, 2013 [5 favorites]
He's weird and complicated. Do you want to peel this guy's onion? because it's not worth it when you could be having fun. Shut this down.
posted by discopolo at 3:09 PM on May 15, 2013 [3 favorites]
posted by discopolo at 3:09 PM on May 15, 2013 [3 favorites]
Hm. I'm as guilty of overthinking as anyone, yet I feel like this is really straightforward: he sounds really insecure, in particular about his STD, and once you accepted that, he felt he could relax and be himself around you...and it turns out he's not the guy you should be with (for all reasons noted above.) It happens.
posted by davejay at 3:17 PM on May 15, 2013 [3 favorites]
posted by davejay at 3:17 PM on May 15, 2013 [3 favorites]
Oh yeah, and don't send him an email or anything else. The moving on you're doing is perfect and you should keep right on doing it. Nobody is receptive to "hey, we're not dating any more, and here are all the reasons it is your fault" communication, even if it's 100% true and deserved. Write it out and throw it away.
posted by davejay at 3:18 PM on May 15, 2013
posted by davejay at 3:18 PM on May 15, 2013
This is waaay too complicated for a 3-month long thing. Even if he wasn't a douchebag, he isn't sure he's ready for a relationship, still has unresolved feelings about his STD and isn't giving you the frequency of communication you need to be secure. But to top that off he turned into an asshole. Count your blessings and move on to the next guy.
posted by Autumn at 3:18 PM on May 15, 2013
posted by Autumn at 3:18 PM on May 15, 2013
I told him that I wanted to continue seeing him as long as we practiced safe sex. I asked him if he could go on antivirals and he said, "probably...but I would need to talk to my doctor."
Hasn't Ask thrown down on this before as being abject bullshit? Like, uncontrolled herpes is a big deal and there's rarely a legitimate reason to have it managed with medication. Why the hell hadn't he dealt with this way before?
I mean there's a million bullshit things about this guy, but this approach to dealing with STDs is a Big Red Flag to look for in the future as well.
posted by emptythought at 3:21 PM on May 15, 2013 [1 favorite]
Hasn't Ask thrown down on this before as being abject bullshit? Like, uncontrolled herpes is a big deal and there's rarely a legitimate reason to have it managed with medication. Why the hell hadn't he dealt with this way before?
I mean there's a million bullshit things about this guy, but this approach to dealing with STDs is a Big Red Flag to look for in the future as well.
posted by emptythought at 3:21 PM on May 15, 2013 [1 favorite]
Best answer: I'm still trying to process what happened and kind of baffled by his behavior. It's just bizarre to me how ugly it ended given how sweet he seemed when we first started dating. I don't understand where all this venom of his came from when I ended things.
Oh Timsneezed, I am so sorry that this happened to you. I can totally understand how this could throw you for a loop.
And I am sorry he wrote you such a terrible and nasty email. I would hate for you to torment yourself feeling like you did something wrong and second-guessing all of your extremely reasonable and proper actions just because of that ridiculous email.
It seems like such a complicated situation, but I think in reality it is actually very very simple: this guy has a real nasty streak and is not a very nice person when you get to know him.
I think he is self-aware enough to know how to behave to get people to like him. I think he knows the things to say or do to come off as sweet to people who have just met him. And I think he's able to do it for a little while in the beginning.
But, people can't do that forever. In this case, it sounds like he got what he wanted once you were willing to have sex with him / once he was sure you liked him / once you were willing to accept him even with the STI he has. Remember, not everyone who is using people is using them for money or sex. Some people use others for their emotions, to get validation or even just as a weird messed up game.
I don't think you should blame yourself at all for not being a psychic and seeing through his initial act. I bet he has a lot of practice with it. I can't blame you for wanting affection and love and being really happy and into it when you seemed to be getting it.
In my opinion this is just what dating is for. To get to know people and figure out who they really are. I believe that it takes a long, long time to do that. If you start dating someone and it turns out they are not at all who they appeared to be at first, that's a success in a way because the point of dating is to figure that out. That's why we don't get married the day we meet someone we like.
About his disgusting email, please don't take it to heart. I think that you did everything exactly right. He is trying to make you feel like some kind of horrible shrew so that he can point to you as the bad guy and cast you at fault for his own cruel and terrible behavior. Classic tactic of abusers the world over. "You MADE me act like this!!" "I would NEVER have done that to you if you weren't so XYZ." Don't buy it for a second, because it's not true.
posted by cairdeas at 3:24 PM on May 15, 2013 [23 favorites]
Oh Timsneezed, I am so sorry that this happened to you. I can totally understand how this could throw you for a loop.
And I am sorry he wrote you such a terrible and nasty email. I would hate for you to torment yourself feeling like you did something wrong and second-guessing all of your extremely reasonable and proper actions just because of that ridiculous email.
It seems like such a complicated situation, but I think in reality it is actually very very simple: this guy has a real nasty streak and is not a very nice person when you get to know him.
I think he is self-aware enough to know how to behave to get people to like him. I think he knows the things to say or do to come off as sweet to people who have just met him. And I think he's able to do it for a little while in the beginning.
But, people can't do that forever. In this case, it sounds like he got what he wanted once you were willing to have sex with him / once he was sure you liked him / once you were willing to accept him even with the STI he has. Remember, not everyone who is using people is using them for money or sex. Some people use others for their emotions, to get validation or even just as a weird messed up game.
I don't think you should blame yourself at all for not being a psychic and seeing through his initial act. I bet he has a lot of practice with it. I can't blame you for wanting affection and love and being really happy and into it when you seemed to be getting it.
In my opinion this is just what dating is for. To get to know people and figure out who they really are. I believe that it takes a long, long time to do that. If you start dating someone and it turns out they are not at all who they appeared to be at first, that's a success in a way because the point of dating is to figure that out. That's why we don't get married the day we meet someone we like.
About his disgusting email, please don't take it to heart. I think that you did everything exactly right. He is trying to make you feel like some kind of horrible shrew so that he can point to you as the bad guy and cast you at fault for his own cruel and terrible behavior. Classic tactic of abusers the world over. "You MADE me act like this!!" "I would NEVER have done that to you if you weren't so XYZ." Don't buy it for a second, because it's not true.
posted by cairdeas at 3:24 PM on May 15, 2013 [23 favorites]
Mod note: Folks maybe let's stick to advice for the OP and not too much random psychoanalysis of this person we don't know.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 3:24 PM on May 15, 2013
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 3:24 PM on May 15, 2013
Best answer: "I wouldn't want to belong to any club that would accept me as a member."
-Groucho Marx
That's my take on what's going on here. He didn't think past the herpes disclosure, and indeed, may have used you as a test for how other women might act. He went into it groveling and ashamed and expecting the worst. Your surprising acceptance made him think he was settling too fast and wonder if it wasn't actually a dealbreaker for most women. This also explains why he reneged on exclusivity. This is common behavior in both men and women who are insecure for whatever reason (him calling *you* insecure seems like projecting to me) or who have "dark secrets." The weight of the shame builds up and makes them act more ingratiating/humble than they would otherwise. You actually did him a pretty good turn by being the first confidant for this. Maybe if he strikes out with other women, he'll come running back-he seems like the type. Don't be quick to have him back if he does!
posted by quincunx at 4:01 PM on May 15, 2013 [6 favorites]
-Groucho Marx
That's my take on what's going on here. He didn't think past the herpes disclosure, and indeed, may have used you as a test for how other women might act. He went into it groveling and ashamed and expecting the worst. Your surprising acceptance made him think he was settling too fast and wonder if it wasn't actually a dealbreaker for most women. This also explains why he reneged on exclusivity. This is common behavior in both men and women who are insecure for whatever reason (him calling *you* insecure seems like projecting to me) or who have "dark secrets." The weight of the shame builds up and makes them act more ingratiating/humble than they would otherwise. You actually did him a pretty good turn by being the first confidant for this. Maybe if he strikes out with other women, he'll come running back-he seems like the type. Don't be quick to have him back if he does!
posted by quincunx at 4:01 PM on May 15, 2013 [6 favorites]
My thought after reading about all of this: He's a troubled person with a lot of anxiety. What you wrote sounds like a description of a person who went off his meds. His moods changed a lot. His behavior went from so-in-love to avoiding you, and it got progressively more difficult to understand, and finally impossible to tolerate.
It's not possible to find a rational explanation for things an irrational person does. Try to assume that he has a lot of problems and they seriously interfere with how he reacts and behaves in a relationship. You were extremely accommodating, and in your post I can't see that you even remotely did anything wrong.
posted by wryly at 4:06 PM on May 15, 2013 [2 favorites]
It's not possible to find a rational explanation for things an irrational person does. Try to assume that he has a lot of problems and they seriously interfere with how he reacts and behaves in a relationship. You were extremely accommodating, and in your post I can't see that you even remotely did anything wrong.
posted by wryly at 4:06 PM on May 15, 2013 [2 favorites]
First of all, you should have no doubt in how you handled everything. Your ex has a severe anxiety disorder and that is a big part of what happened here. I was rooting for the both of you up until the turning point that you mentioned. Herpes is a red herring and, as I'm sure you've discovered in your reading, it is incredibly common -- 1 in 5? Cold sores can also be transferred from mouth to genitals, so there's that...
I hope that you won't let this experience change your ability to be compassionate and trusting in future relationships. Anxiety disorders are incredibly common but, then again, so are jerks. There are guys with anxiety who are not jerks. Your ex is a guy with anxiety who is a jerk, although fleshing the one from the other isn't clear cut. Where the disorder ends and the jerkishness begins doesn't really matter. He's not far enough along to be in a relationship. He knows it, you know it, I know it and hopefully he has a therapist that will help him get there. You can't help him in this.
If you need a way to frame this experience, I can throw you some but they're about as arbitrary as any other explanation. Here's my guess. He has anxiety induced erectile disfunction. No big deal -- very common and works itself out after a few play sessions. He doesn't know that it is easy to solve and feels shame, so he was unwilling to communicate about it. His prior experience is that sex is A to B to C instead of understanding that it is a negotiation. He ended up in an anxiety and shame spiral and he lashed out. All of this inability to reflect and communicate is a big dealbreaker. You did everything right. You can't help him at this point in his path.
There is also an element of him being on his best behavior and then burning through the honeymoon period SUPER FAST. I mean, some levelling off is inevitable. Some part of this jerk behavior is really his base state (the talking shit about other people is the clue here -- that's totally independent of anxiety). The lovey dovey stuff was the act of love hormones, it was never going to last but, jumping jeepers, what a quick turn of events.
ALSO: Totally, totally fair to want exclusivity with your sexual partners for safety reasons alone. I mean, you know that but I just wanted to chime in that it's a common early discussion to have. He may have been reading into this and feeling shame or he may be interested in playing the field. Either way: it's a dealbreaker. A person has to be able to communicate with their sexual partners.
posted by Skwirl at 4:10 PM on May 15, 2013 [1 favorite]
I hope that you won't let this experience change your ability to be compassionate and trusting in future relationships. Anxiety disorders are incredibly common but, then again, so are jerks. There are guys with anxiety who are not jerks. Your ex is a guy with anxiety who is a jerk, although fleshing the one from the other isn't clear cut. Where the disorder ends and the jerkishness begins doesn't really matter. He's not far enough along to be in a relationship. He knows it, you know it, I know it and hopefully he has a therapist that will help him get there. You can't help him in this.
If you need a way to frame this experience, I can throw you some but they're about as arbitrary as any other explanation. Here's my guess. He has anxiety induced erectile disfunction. No big deal -- very common and works itself out after a few play sessions. He doesn't know that it is easy to solve and feels shame, so he was unwilling to communicate about it. His prior experience is that sex is A to B to C instead of understanding that it is a negotiation. He ended up in an anxiety and shame spiral and he lashed out. All of this inability to reflect and communicate is a big dealbreaker. You did everything right. You can't help him at this point in his path.
There is also an element of him being on his best behavior and then burning through the honeymoon period SUPER FAST. I mean, some levelling off is inevitable. Some part of this jerk behavior is really his base state (the talking shit about other people is the clue here -- that's totally independent of anxiety). The lovey dovey stuff was the act of love hormones, it was never going to last but, jumping jeepers, what a quick turn of events.
ALSO: Totally, totally fair to want exclusivity with your sexual partners for safety reasons alone. I mean, you know that but I just wanted to chime in that it's a common early discussion to have. He may have been reading into this and feeling shame or he may be interested in playing the field. Either way: it's a dealbreaker. A person has to be able to communicate with their sexual partners.
posted by Skwirl at 4:10 PM on May 15, 2013 [1 favorite]
You do sound like you are a bit anxious, in terms of romantic orientation. He sounds avoidant. Doesn't this book claim that anxious and avoidant individuals often find themselves drawn to each other?
You also sound sweet, and like you are willing to put yourself out there and work to have a happy relationship. He sounds rather more immature.
It didn't work out. You guys really weren't a good fit - I'm not sure quibbling over the whys and hows is going to help you any.
two things:
1. If you find yourself having to constantly ask a romantic partner whether they are still into you, or if the relationship is going okay, you may need to consider a) that there is something explicitly not right in the relationship that you are already picking up on, and that doesn't need external validation to be proven true or false, or b) you, yourself, might not be ready to be in a relationship, and you are attempting to externalizing your own anxiety.
2. When someone says that they "are complicated," they are really saying that they are drama llamas, and are forewarning you that you will get spit in the eye (figuratively speaking). Never is that a good sign.
Sorry this sucked; in the end, you'll be fine.
posted by vivid postcard at 4:37 PM on May 15, 2013 [2 favorites]
You also sound sweet, and like you are willing to put yourself out there and work to have a happy relationship. He sounds rather more immature.
It didn't work out. You guys really weren't a good fit - I'm not sure quibbling over the whys and hows is going to help you any.
two things:
1. If you find yourself having to constantly ask a romantic partner whether they are still into you, or if the relationship is going okay, you may need to consider a) that there is something explicitly not right in the relationship that you are already picking up on, and that doesn't need external validation to be proven true or false, or b) you, yourself, might not be ready to be in a relationship, and you are attempting to externalizing your own anxiety.
2. When someone says that they "are complicated," they are really saying that they are drama llamas, and are forewarning you that you will get spit in the eye (figuratively speaking). Never is that a good sign.
Sorry this sucked; in the end, you'll be fine.
posted by vivid postcard at 4:37 PM on May 15, 2013 [2 favorites]
Best answer: On our first date he said more than once, "I know it's crazy but I really like you." He couldn't keep his hands off of me and kept telling me how beautiful he found me. He told me he was looking for a relationship and wanted to make sure I was on the same page.
We went to a movie a couple of days later and had another magical evening. It turned out the movie we had chosen was a little depressing and I apologized to him that it was a bit of a downer. He whispered in my ear, "I actually like it, and besides we could be watching anything together. I just really like spending time with you."
You don't need to go any further to know that this guy is living in his own head. Sorry, I realize it may seem romantic, but it's also unrealistic. He wasn't relating you at all, he was relating to his own fantasy, and you were just an unfortunately convenient prop that he could hang his fantasy on.
I'm sorry you had to go through all this. Next time I'd say be careful about people who go crazy effusive from day one. They're likely to be drama queens in a play of their production.
posted by alms at 4:55 PM on May 15, 2013 [11 favorites]
We went to a movie a couple of days later and had another magical evening. It turned out the movie we had chosen was a little depressing and I apologized to him that it was a bit of a downer. He whispered in my ear, "I actually like it, and besides we could be watching anything together. I just really like spending time with you."
You don't need to go any further to know that this guy is living in his own head. Sorry, I realize it may seem romantic, but it's also unrealistic. He wasn't relating you at all, he was relating to his own fantasy, and you were just an unfortunately convenient prop that he could hang his fantasy on.
I'm sorry you had to go through all this. Next time I'd say be careful about people who go crazy effusive from day one. They're likely to be drama queens in a play of their production.
posted by alms at 4:55 PM on May 15, 2013 [11 favorites]
Response by poster: Thanks for all the great insight so far! It's given me some clarity and sense of closure.
There's one thing I want to address. I've had bad experience with blowtorch guys in the past but I've never dated a guy who was at all into me and didn't come on very strong. Most of the guys I've been with have come on super strong like this. The few who didn't were sort of indifferent from the start and never got more into me.
So I just have sort of assumed that coming on really strong is how guys act when they're interested.
I remember after our first date being into him but having a slight icky feeling that something was askew about how interested he was, feeling a bit turned off even. He had this giant grin plastered on his face the entire time we were kissing and it creeped me out a little. I squashed the feeling because I thought maybe I was just devaluing him because he was into me. In hindsight maybe my intuition was onto something.
I also thought his line about enjoying any movie with me was cheesy but excusing it as him not being especially smooth. It's one of those things where it made me happy on the one hand because I wanted to believe it but also made me cringe a little on the other.
posted by timsneezed at 5:29 PM on May 15, 2013 [9 favorites]
There's one thing I want to address. I've had bad experience with blowtorch guys in the past but I've never dated a guy who was at all into me and didn't come on very strong. Most of the guys I've been with have come on super strong like this. The few who didn't were sort of indifferent from the start and never got more into me.
So I just have sort of assumed that coming on really strong is how guys act when they're interested.
I remember after our first date being into him but having a slight icky feeling that something was askew about how interested he was, feeling a bit turned off even. He had this giant grin plastered on his face the entire time we were kissing and it creeped me out a little. I squashed the feeling because I thought maybe I was just devaluing him because he was into me. In hindsight maybe my intuition was onto something.
I also thought his line about enjoying any movie with me was cheesy but excusing it as him not being especially smooth. It's one of those things where it made me happy on the one hand because I wanted to believe it but also made me cringe a little on the other.
posted by timsneezed at 5:29 PM on May 15, 2013 [9 favorites]
Best answer: complicated? nah, he is just a super high-maintenance headcase. what is with the "i'm tired and need to go home" at 9pm when he asked you out on a date? this sounds like something a 50s housewife would say or a sick grandmother. right now i know you are feeling hurt and confused but in a year you will look back on this and be making jokes about this guy with your friends.
i agree with getting back out there and dating other people. don't let this jerk scare you off men. chances are the next person you meet will be a perfectly decent guy.
posted by wildflower at 5:35 PM on May 15, 2013 [2 favorites]
i agree with getting back out there and dating other people. don't let this jerk scare you off men. chances are the next person you meet will be a perfectly decent guy.
posted by wildflower at 5:35 PM on May 15, 2013 [2 favorites]
You dodged some bullets. Go patch up that drywall.
posted by oceanjesse at 5:42 PM on May 15, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by oceanjesse at 5:42 PM on May 15, 2013 [2 favorites]
Best answer: I would pattern a guess that he's still in love with his ex, hence the bitter tone in his voice when you brought her up. He didn't want to talk about it because it's still a reality for him, in the here and now. He met you and thought you could magically wipe his love for her out of his mind, but you ultimately didn't (and no one can, for that matter). He needs to get over his bullshit and commit to someone only when he's gotten through it all.
This could be off base, but I just get that feeling with how you said he acted when he started to talk about her. The std issue could really be a factor, but it's also a bit hard to to separate things when you're still very emotionally attached to someone else. You don't know what their relationship status really is, or if he's just secretly pining for her and waiting for her to come back, and doesn't want to mess it up.
Either way, he sounds like he really jerked you around by coming on so strong and demanding a committed relationship and you to be on the same page, then doing a full turn around on you.
You dodged a bullet, in every sense of the word. EVERY WAY. Go on and be happy in your life, there's someone out there who will give you what you want and so much more. This was not the guy.
Good luck :)
posted by readygo at 5:54 PM on May 15, 2013
This could be off base, but I just get that feeling with how you said he acted when he started to talk about her. The std issue could really be a factor, but it's also a bit hard to to separate things when you're still very emotionally attached to someone else. You don't know what their relationship status really is, or if he's just secretly pining for her and waiting for her to come back, and doesn't want to mess it up.
Either way, he sounds like he really jerked you around by coming on so strong and demanding a committed relationship and you to be on the same page, then doing a full turn around on you.
You dodged a bullet, in every sense of the word. EVERY WAY. Go on and be happy in your life, there's someone out there who will give you what you want and so much more. This was not the guy.
Good luck :)
posted by readygo at 5:54 PM on May 15, 2013
Best answer: Most of the guys I've been with have come on super strong like this.
You mention that you are a bit reserved. It's possible that these types of guys are drawn to you because it's easier to project their fantasies onto someone who seems more passive. You're more of a blank canvas for their projections, if that makes sense.
That doesn't mean you need to change anything, but it might be an explanation.
That said, I am an outgoing type and it's happened to me too, more than once. It's just a common way for guys with a lot of issues to behave.
posted by RubyScarlet at 6:09 PM on May 15, 2013 [7 favorites]
You mention that you are a bit reserved. It's possible that these types of guys are drawn to you because it's easier to project their fantasies onto someone who seems more passive. You're more of a blank canvas for their projections, if that makes sense.
That doesn't mean you need to change anything, but it might be an explanation.
That said, I am an outgoing type and it's happened to me too, more than once. It's just a common way for guys with a lot of issues to behave.
posted by RubyScarlet at 6:09 PM on May 15, 2013 [7 favorites]
Oh my lord. I hope this is not too straight up, but I think you just sound like a nicer person than him and you really don't need to put up with his B.S. His "doesn't feel good with a condom" thing sounds a lot like he's wanting to go raw while having genital herpes. And also while not wanting to commit to you.
This is way too much hemming and hawwing about a guy who is so not good enough for you in my opinion. Don't be upset that he doesn't want to commit to you, please. He's the one getting the raw deal I think. Count your blessings and think about all of the future spiteful angry emails you've saved yourself from.
posted by mermily at 6:09 PM on May 15, 2013 [7 favorites]
This is way too much hemming and hawwing about a guy who is so not good enough for you in my opinion. Don't be upset that he doesn't want to commit to you, please. He's the one getting the raw deal I think. Count your blessings and think about all of the future spiteful angry emails you've saved yourself from.
posted by mermily at 6:09 PM on May 15, 2013 [7 favorites]
Nthing everyone who said that he's the one with the issues. The only thing that I think you did "wrong" was cutting him way too much slack when things began to go awry.
You don't need to see things out to the bitter end to confidently make a decision that this guy isn't for you. You can bail anytime you like. When the relationship starts causing you more stress than happiness, that's probably a good time.
posted by RubyScarlet at 6:18 PM on May 15, 2013
You don't need to see things out to the bitter end to confidently make a decision that this guy isn't for you. You can bail anytime you like. When the relationship starts causing you more stress than happiness, that's probably a good time.
posted by RubyScarlet at 6:18 PM on May 15, 2013
I've been in eerily similar situations (including having a guy tell me how "complicated" he is). There's no way that all the hurdles and compensations he was asking you to jump/accept would ultimately be worth it. He's a project that you don't need. Glad you got to step away.
posted by FlyByDay at 6:20 PM on May 15, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by FlyByDay at 6:20 PM on May 15, 2013 [1 favorite]
My friend dated a guy just like this. In fact, I want to ask, are his initials DH? (No need to answer that.) The "I really like you" in the beginning was part of her scenario too, as was the bitterness about his ex. And all the other crap sounds familiar.
Here is what explained it in that case:
- He was still really hung up on his ex, and jumped into stuff with my friend because she was the first person in a while he'd had a spark with. However, it was more of a selfish, "Oooh I feel something, let me go forward on this," rather than a situation where he gave serious consideration to whether he could sustain the initial enthusiasm. Turned out he couldn't. It was selfish of him to jump in anyway, but he's a selfish dude. He did all the "I really like you stuff" because women respond well to it, and he hadn't just done it with her. It's not that hard to be likeable up front.
- The selfishness was also his standard M.O. He had such serious emotional problems that I later found out that most of his prior exes had called him a sociopath, and someone warned our whole local interest community about him. It turned out he'd tried to strangle one person, and tried to push another out of a moving car. One of his exes was institutionalized after a year of emotional abuse. There was more awfulness to this guy than my friend saw in their short time together. Thankfully for her that she got away.
Let me add a couple more protips.
1. In this case, the guy came crawling back not once, but thrice. My friend acquiesced at first because he was apologetic and seemed loving and sincere, and she still sorta liked him. It ended really badly for her. His awfulness just escalated and he dropped her again with cruelty. Prepare yourself that you might hear from your guy again, hopefully you won't buy into it.
2. I want to point something out. Even if (unlikely) it was your fault or your attitude that made this relationship end. Kind, respectful, normal, humane people do not put forth that complaint upon breaking up with someone. It demonstrates an extreme lack of empathy. Even if it were true (which is unlikely because it's so hypocritical and batshit crazy) a normal person wouldn't put it like that. There would be a lot of gentleness. "I'm sorry, if you must know it's because I felt uncomfortable at time X and it really seems to me that we don't click, and I know it's maybe making a mountain of a molehill and I'm sorry, it's just the way I feel." It wouldn't be a barrage of insults out of the gate when you're the dumper. That's cruel, abusive-ish, demonstrates a huge lack of normal psychological relations, and is not okay.
3. You wrote So I just have sort of assumed that coming on really strong is how guys act when they're interested.
Sure, that can happen. Sometimes, on the contrary, guys are shy when they really like you. It depends. However the hot and cold and wishy washiness up front was your clue that this was a bad situation. I'm sure that if you look back, you can remember a time when you had a bad gut feeling early on and decided to continue forward. He might have been "interested," in something, in using you, in getting his d--- wet, in getting some psychological need met, in whatever. Surely he was "interested" in something. However coming on really strong is not always a clue that it's going to be a good relationship that works.
Don't beat yourself up. Guys this awful are an anomaly. I'd say maybe between 5 and 10% of the population if that. Don't lose faith that there are good people out there to date. Definitely don't blame yourself in this situation.
posted by htid at 6:30 PM on May 15, 2013 [1 favorite]
Here is what explained it in that case:
- He was still really hung up on his ex, and jumped into stuff with my friend because she was the first person in a while he'd had a spark with. However, it was more of a selfish, "Oooh I feel something, let me go forward on this," rather than a situation where he gave serious consideration to whether he could sustain the initial enthusiasm. Turned out he couldn't. It was selfish of him to jump in anyway, but he's a selfish dude. He did all the "I really like you stuff" because women respond well to it, and he hadn't just done it with her. It's not that hard to be likeable up front.
- The selfishness was also his standard M.O. He had such serious emotional problems that I later found out that most of his prior exes had called him a sociopath, and someone warned our whole local interest community about him. It turned out he'd tried to strangle one person, and tried to push another out of a moving car. One of his exes was institutionalized after a year of emotional abuse. There was more awfulness to this guy than my friend saw in their short time together. Thankfully for her that she got away.
Let me add a couple more protips.
1. In this case, the guy came crawling back not once, but thrice. My friend acquiesced at first because he was apologetic and seemed loving and sincere, and she still sorta liked him. It ended really badly for her. His awfulness just escalated and he dropped her again with cruelty. Prepare yourself that you might hear from your guy again, hopefully you won't buy into it.
2. I want to point something out. Even if (unlikely) it was your fault or your attitude that made this relationship end. Kind, respectful, normal, humane people do not put forth that complaint upon breaking up with someone. It demonstrates an extreme lack of empathy. Even if it were true (which is unlikely because it's so hypocritical and batshit crazy) a normal person wouldn't put it like that. There would be a lot of gentleness. "I'm sorry, if you must know it's because I felt uncomfortable at time X and it really seems to me that we don't click, and I know it's maybe making a mountain of a molehill and I'm sorry, it's just the way I feel." It wouldn't be a barrage of insults out of the gate when you're the dumper. That's cruel, abusive-ish, demonstrates a huge lack of normal psychological relations, and is not okay.
3. You wrote So I just have sort of assumed that coming on really strong is how guys act when they're interested.
Sure, that can happen. Sometimes, on the contrary, guys are shy when they really like you. It depends. However the hot and cold and wishy washiness up front was your clue that this was a bad situation. I'm sure that if you look back, you can remember a time when you had a bad gut feeling early on and decided to continue forward. He might have been "interested," in something, in using you, in getting his d--- wet, in getting some psychological need met, in whatever. Surely he was "interested" in something. However coming on really strong is not always a clue that it's going to be a good relationship that works.
Don't beat yourself up. Guys this awful are an anomaly. I'd say maybe between 5 and 10% of the population if that. Don't lose faith that there are good people out there to date. Definitely don't blame yourself in this situation.
posted by htid at 6:30 PM on May 15, 2013 [1 favorite]
Check out baggagereclaim.com. You'll love it and it will confirm you are not along in dealing with a-holes like this. Honestly, you did nothing wrong. I would agree that you should never write a closing letter like that in the future. Why? Because that's the kind of note that guys share with their friends to "confirm" the reason he broke it off is because you are too dramatic when he is really the incredibly dramatic one. It's just not worth it.
Take care of yourself.
posted by superfille at 7:39 PM on May 15, 2013 [1 favorite]
Take care of yourself.
posted by superfille at 7:39 PM on May 15, 2013 [1 favorite]
I think your confusion is a sign that your romantic filtering process needs a tune-up.
You mentioned in your AskMe that you are shy. I believe you are using your shyness to filter bad romantic prospects, but you stop this process after a prospect shows genuine interest in you. I suggest this because your post was chalk-full of red flags, which Blasdelb was kind enough to give you in a tidy list, and your confusion seems to stem from not recognizing these flags.
I don't mean to suggest you should stop being shy or stop using your shyness as part of your filtration process. Instead, I think you need to remain skeptical for homedudes who pass that filter.
posted by emilynoa at 7:43 PM on May 15, 2013 [2 favorites]
You mentioned in your AskMe that you are shy. I believe you are using your shyness to filter bad romantic prospects, but you stop this process after a prospect shows genuine interest in you. I suggest this because your post was chalk-full of red flags, which Blasdelb was kind enough to give you in a tidy list, and your confusion seems to stem from not recognizing these flags.
I don't mean to suggest you should stop being shy or stop using your shyness as part of your filtration process. Instead, I think you need to remain skeptical for homedudes who pass that filter.
posted by emilynoa at 7:43 PM on May 15, 2013 [2 favorites]
So I just have sort of assumed that coming on really strong is how guys act when they're interested.
I was going to respond, but then rainydayfilms said...
Literally until I met my husband I thought the same thing. Turns out that guys who are very interested in you can show appropriate and normal levels of interest without going dramatically overboard. It looks like: calling or texting consistently (maybe even every day, but not many times a day probably), setting up dates on a regular basis so you're not wondering what's happening between dates, listening to you when you talk, laughing at your jokes, being interested in hearing about your family and friends, and bringing up exclusivity or being open to that conversation when you are comfortable with it (not immediately, but maybe before you have sex). It's not indifference and it's not overboard, it feels exciting and fun but the difference is it's not stressful in any way and you feel good about yourself and him the whole time. Look for that.
And what could i say better? So quoted for truth.
posted by davejay at 8:12 PM on May 15, 2013 [4 favorites]
I was going to respond, but then rainydayfilms said...
Literally until I met my husband I thought the same thing. Turns out that guys who are very interested in you can show appropriate and normal levels of interest without going dramatically overboard. It looks like: calling or texting consistently (maybe even every day, but not many times a day probably), setting up dates on a regular basis so you're not wondering what's happening between dates, listening to you when you talk, laughing at your jokes, being interested in hearing about your family and friends, and bringing up exclusivity or being open to that conversation when you are comfortable with it (not immediately, but maybe before you have sex). It's not indifference and it's not overboard, it feels exciting and fun but the difference is it's not stressful in any way and you feel good about yourself and him the whole time. Look for that.
And what could i say better? So quoted for truth.
posted by davejay at 8:12 PM on May 15, 2013 [4 favorites]
He sounds like a player -- the initially hot then cold over the break, the small gift right before possible sexytimes, and him being initially not ready for sex could all be innocent on their own, but together they read as mind games.
Your exclusivity filter seems like it worked this time.
posted by sninctown at 8:27 PM on May 15, 2013 [1 favorite]
Your exclusivity filter seems like it worked this time.
posted by sninctown at 8:27 PM on May 15, 2013 [1 favorite]
Based on your description of his behavior I would question if he even has an STD...what he does have is erectile dysfunction and a huge problem with honesty. Run, run, run and count your blessings.
posted by cairnoflore at 9:22 PM on May 15, 2013
posted by cairnoflore at 9:22 PM on May 15, 2013
there's rarely a legitimate reason to have it managed with medication
Jesus, total slip up here, should read
rarely a legitimate reason to not have it managed with medication
posted by emptythought at 9:33 PM on May 15, 2013 [2 favorites]
Jesus, total slip up here, should read
rarely a legitimate reason to not have it managed with medication
posted by emptythought at 9:33 PM on May 15, 2013 [2 favorites]
Of course you were "insecure," he changed his mind every other minute! Dude sounds mentally ill.
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:37 PM on May 15, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:37 PM on May 15, 2013 [2 favorites]
He said that he had a lot of baggage because his ex girlfriend had really hurt him. Apparently after she broke up with him two years ago, and she stayed friends with him for awhile while she was dating someone new but kept telling him she loved him and wanted to be with him.
This is almost exactly what he did to you, except that the dating of someone new seems to have been more threatened than real.
I'm guessing he set up this whole elaborate drama-- not necessarily with full self-awareness-- in order to replicate what happened between him and his girlfriend, but with him playing his girlfriend, and you manipulated into playing him.
Maybe he thought mistreating someone else just as he feels he was mistreated would allow him to get some of his own back, but it's hard to know.
In any case, I think you came through your ordeal extremely well; you didn't lose your cool and do something stupid, you didn't strike back at him at all (which amazes me), and you didn't grovel-- and I doubt very much he could say any of that about his turn in the role he tricked you into playing.
posted by jamjam at 10:14 PM on May 15, 2013 [2 favorites]
This is almost exactly what he did to you, except that the dating of someone new seems to have been more threatened than real.
I'm guessing he set up this whole elaborate drama-- not necessarily with full self-awareness-- in order to replicate what happened between him and his girlfriend, but with him playing his girlfriend, and you manipulated into playing him.
Maybe he thought mistreating someone else just as he feels he was mistreated would allow him to get some of his own back, but it's hard to know.
In any case, I think you came through your ordeal extremely well; you didn't lose your cool and do something stupid, you didn't strike back at him at all (which amazes me), and you didn't grovel-- and I doubt very much he could say any of that about his turn in the role he tricked you into playing.
posted by jamjam at 10:14 PM on May 15, 2013 [2 favorites]
He's got too much baggage to date right now, he tried, he freaked the fuck out, and then went ahead and sabotaged it but good.
You handled things fine, you reacted like a normal human being trying to communicate in a new and seemingly promising relationship. Cutting off contact was also very much the right thing to do. Don't blame yourself. This was soooo not about you.
If I were in your shoes, I would not find anger a very useful indulgence after a day or so. I'd probably settle on a sort of detached pity for the guy and aim to not let it affect me deeply in any permanent way.
And it bears repeating: This was soooo not about you.
posted by desuetude at 11:30 PM on May 15, 2013 [4 favorites]
You handled things fine, you reacted like a normal human being trying to communicate in a new and seemingly promising relationship. Cutting off contact was also very much the right thing to do. Don't blame yourself. This was soooo not about you.
If I were in your shoes, I would not find anger a very useful indulgence after a day or so. I'd probably settle on a sort of detached pity for the guy and aim to not let it affect me deeply in any permanent way.
And it bears repeating: This was soooo not about you.
posted by desuetude at 11:30 PM on May 15, 2013 [4 favorites]
The thing about this question that bothers me the most is that you sound a bit TOO sane, OP. I had many feelings of rage, disgust, boredom, irritation, disbelief, etc, etc, just reading this tale and yet you largely leave out mention of these things. It sounds like you're submerging your own feelings because you're so insecure, you just want someone, anyone, to accept you. I'd suggest questioning yourself more rigorously on what you think/feel, pushing aside the, "will he like me?" question, and acting in your own best interest more.
posted by amodelcitizen at 11:54 PM on May 15, 2013 [14 favorites]
posted by amodelcitizen at 11:54 PM on May 15, 2013 [14 favorites]
I remember after our first date being into him but having a slight icky feeling that something was askew about how interested he was, feeling a bit turned off even.
Sounds like he was more interested in what he imagined you would be like than interested in getting to know you and find out what you are like.
In the future, don't just notice he's interested, notice what he's interested in.
posted by yohko at 1:36 AM on May 16, 2013 [1 favorite]
Sounds like he was more interested in what he imagined you would be like than interested in getting to know you and find out what you are like.
In the future, don't just notice he's interested, notice what he's interested in.
posted by yohko at 1:36 AM on May 16, 2013 [1 favorite]
I'm still trying to process what happened and kind of baffled by his behavior. It's just bizarre to me how ugly it ended given how sweet he seemed when we first started dating. I don't understand where all this venom of his came from when I ended things.
Sounds like you got to know him. When people meet, they have their Best Behaviour on. I think a lot of us probably do that. And I don't think it's inauthentic. Just as we put on fine clothes to go to ceremonies, we start out wanted to be our best. To show the other person who we can be, when we really try.
That's not really sustainable – most people don't wear their finest every day – and so over the process of date, we begin to relax into our real selves. We invite the other person in, we start to open up and become vulnerable to them. It's a process of progressively opening up and seeing if there is a fit and a match between two people.
In his case, there's obviously quite a few things going on. He seems to have some control issues, trouble accepting his health situation, lingering emotional attachments to a previous relationship, a very intense kind of attention – it's either completely present, or generally absent, and a variety of other personality features.
If you look at those objectively, they don't mean anything. They are just features. As you have your own personality features. As you got to know each other, it seems to realised that whilst there was a very intense physical attraction and intoxication, there was not a personality match.
As to where the venom came from, it was always there. It's not venom, it's his way of being right now. Typically, how we treat other people is how we are also treating ourselves. Based on his actions as described, he seems to oscillate between self-indulgence and self-denial, to have a very specific knowledge of what he wants in some moments, and to be very confused in other moments.
None of this has anything to do with you, that's probably just the kind of person he is. As you are the kind of person that you are.
If you are looking for "what happened" in terms of asking if something went wrong, and could you have had a different outcome, I doubt it in both cases. You guys just weren't a good match. Full-stop. Everyone has their own brand of Crazy, you guys just have different versions of it.
People are supposed to change as they self-reveal. It's been said that there is no standing still in dating. With each interaction, you are either more attracted to the person or less attracted to the person. It's a moving target. In the beginning, the momentum was positive – positive being what you liked and were looking for. In the end, the momentum was negative – negative being what you do not like, and were not looking for. It crossed a threshold and things ended.
posted by nickrussell at 2:43 AM on May 16, 2013 [4 favorites]
Sounds like you got to know him. When people meet, they have their Best Behaviour on. I think a lot of us probably do that. And I don't think it's inauthentic. Just as we put on fine clothes to go to ceremonies, we start out wanted to be our best. To show the other person who we can be, when we really try.
That's not really sustainable – most people don't wear their finest every day – and so over the process of date, we begin to relax into our real selves. We invite the other person in, we start to open up and become vulnerable to them. It's a process of progressively opening up and seeing if there is a fit and a match between two people.
In his case, there's obviously quite a few things going on. He seems to have some control issues, trouble accepting his health situation, lingering emotional attachments to a previous relationship, a very intense kind of attention – it's either completely present, or generally absent, and a variety of other personality features.
If you look at those objectively, they don't mean anything. They are just features. As you have your own personality features. As you got to know each other, it seems to realised that whilst there was a very intense physical attraction and intoxication, there was not a personality match.
As to where the venom came from, it was always there. It's not venom, it's his way of being right now. Typically, how we treat other people is how we are also treating ourselves. Based on his actions as described, he seems to oscillate between self-indulgence and self-denial, to have a very specific knowledge of what he wants in some moments, and to be very confused in other moments.
None of this has anything to do with you, that's probably just the kind of person he is. As you are the kind of person that you are.
If you are looking for "what happened" in terms of asking if something went wrong, and could you have had a different outcome, I doubt it in both cases. You guys just weren't a good match. Full-stop. Everyone has their own brand of Crazy, you guys just have different versions of it.
People are supposed to change as they self-reveal. It's been said that there is no standing still in dating. With each interaction, you are either more attracted to the person or less attracted to the person. It's a moving target. In the beginning, the momentum was positive – positive being what you liked and were looking for. In the end, the momentum was negative – negative being what you do not like, and were not looking for. It crossed a threshold and things ended.
posted by nickrussell at 2:43 AM on May 16, 2013 [4 favorites]
My opinion, as someone who's dated someone very similar? You did nothing wrong. I too dated a guy who had a weird hang-up that made him act all wonky (his wasn't an STD, it was a recently-deceased sister). He was hot and cold, effusively complimenting me one minute and acting cold the next. He blamed this behavior on his dead sister (I have a dead sister too, and I don't use it as an excuse to treat people like crap). Turns out he was actually just a garden-variety asshole, and had been that way long before his sister died. Like you, I gave him the benefit of the doubt because of the difficult thing he'd been through. And like you, I questioned every move I made and wondered what I was doing wrong or if he even liked me. It turns out he was sleeping with several other girls while dating me (and telling me he loved me), and using his dead sister as a reason to treat us ALL like crap. Some people are just douchebags. You dodged a major bullet and probably learned a lot about trusting your instincts.
I don't think you did anything wrong by asking for reassurance. When someone consistently cancels on you, of course you get insecure about their feelings for you. And honestly, I don't think your final email to him, in which you laid it all out, was wrong either. He deserves to know that he treated you badly and maybe (though not likely) he'll learn from it. I wish I had been as strong as you. I let my ex mess with my head for over a year before I finally threw in the towel.
posted by thisismyname at 8:39 AM on May 16, 2013 [4 favorites]
I don't think you did anything wrong by asking for reassurance. When someone consistently cancels on you, of course you get insecure about their feelings for you. And honestly, I don't think your final email to him, in which you laid it all out, was wrong either. He deserves to know that he treated you badly and maybe (though not likely) he'll learn from it. I wish I had been as strong as you. I let my ex mess with my head for over a year before I finally threw in the towel.
posted by thisismyname at 8:39 AM on May 16, 2013 [4 favorites]
The "I could watch any movie with you" moment sounds like a genuinely sweet moment. That's okay. Even a broken clock is right twice a day. In that moment he was actually doing what he was supposed to be doing as a potential partner: He sensed your discomfort and productively responded by assuaging it -- even at the risk of losing your interest by being cheesy.
The real red flags were all the times he did the opposite thing. He ignored your clearly stated needs, or twisted your concerns and shot them back at you. Sometimes he created a twisted empathy where instead of productively sympathizing, he took your emotional concern and reflected and amplified it with accusation. Red, red, red flags.
A passing moment of nicety can just be taken at face value. One lasting pain of emotional attacks, and a part that holds people back, is the need to walk on eggshells and doubt every little signal in future relationships. Paying attention to the big signals was more than enough to know that this guy was bad news bears.
There's a real hazard in taking one extremely potent bad experience and creating a Grand Unified Theory of Avoiding Jerk out of it. For one thing, jerks and good men all have watched the same romcoms and may be emulating the same cultural tropes.
The proof of the pudding is **how they make you feel about yourself.** The way to avoid jerks isn't to create a checklist of their behaviors per se. The way to avoid jerks is to inventory your own self-feelings and base-line doubts. Learn how to trust yourself in separating base-line new relationship doubts from reasonable doubts and the doubts that result from a bad partners' manipulation.
There's also the Waitperson Test -- which is not about waiters and waitresses necessarily but that is a common scenario. How does this person relate themselves to another human being when there is zero benefit to be gained from ingratiating themselves? Rages at other drivers? No sympathy for pain stories in the foreign news? Treatment of animals? Homeless person asking for change? (Cheap test: Give a dollar or two away while you're with them and see what happens. Ask follow up questions.)
Similar principle: How do they act when their goals are temporarily off the table? "I only sleep with people when we have an exclusive situation. If you're not ready, that's okay but we're not going to have sex." OR: "I want you to stay over but I'm not ready for sex yet. Can you sleep with me without 'sleeping' with me?"
To me, the idea to always listen to your gut doesn't mean always acting on what you hear. It's more like active listening: Asking yourself follow-up questions to determine the origin of the feeling and then determining if it's based in relevant fact. That is to say, trusting yourself and learning to dig deeper and analyze gut feelings to the point where you can verbalize why something feels off and the potential motivations behind that "off" feeling can be really helpful.
posted by Skwirl at 8:41 AM on May 16, 2013 [6 favorites]
The real red flags were all the times he did the opposite thing. He ignored your clearly stated needs, or twisted your concerns and shot them back at you. Sometimes he created a twisted empathy where instead of productively sympathizing, he took your emotional concern and reflected and amplified it with accusation. Red, red, red flags.
A passing moment of nicety can just be taken at face value. One lasting pain of emotional attacks, and a part that holds people back, is the need to walk on eggshells and doubt every little signal in future relationships. Paying attention to the big signals was more than enough to know that this guy was bad news bears.
There's a real hazard in taking one extremely potent bad experience and creating a Grand Unified Theory of Avoiding Jerk out of it. For one thing, jerks and good men all have watched the same romcoms and may be emulating the same cultural tropes.
The proof of the pudding is **how they make you feel about yourself.** The way to avoid jerks isn't to create a checklist of their behaviors per se. The way to avoid jerks is to inventory your own self-feelings and base-line doubts. Learn how to trust yourself in separating base-line new relationship doubts from reasonable doubts and the doubts that result from a bad partners' manipulation.
There's also the Waitperson Test -- which is not about waiters and waitresses necessarily but that is a common scenario. How does this person relate themselves to another human being when there is zero benefit to be gained from ingratiating themselves? Rages at other drivers? No sympathy for pain stories in the foreign news? Treatment of animals? Homeless person asking for change? (Cheap test: Give a dollar or two away while you're with them and see what happens. Ask follow up questions.)
Similar principle: How do they act when their goals are temporarily off the table? "I only sleep with people when we have an exclusive situation. If you're not ready, that's okay but we're not going to have sex." OR: "I want you to stay over but I'm not ready for sex yet. Can you sleep with me without 'sleeping' with me?"
To me, the idea to always listen to your gut doesn't mean always acting on what you hear. It's more like active listening: Asking yourself follow-up questions to determine the origin of the feeling and then determining if it's based in relevant fact. That is to say, trusting yourself and learning to dig deeper and analyze gut feelings to the point where you can verbalize why something feels off and the potential motivations behind that "off" feeling can be really helpful.
posted by Skwirl at 8:41 AM on May 16, 2013 [6 favorites]
I've been on the receiving end of that whole "Oh my god I'm so into you you are so amazing etc" thing in the beginning stages of dating someone, and yeah, it's disorienting and surreal. It's easy to take that person's words at face value because, well, it's nice to be told that, and it's nice to think someone really feels that way about you, and hey this guy is cute and smart and he's into me! But no, it's not realistic, regardless of the guy's actual motivations for saying that stuff. At best, it's a sign this person isn't sensible or realistic, and at worst he's purposely manipulating you.
A cruel fact of life is that it's impossible to know what a healthy dating/relationship dynamic is until you've experienced it for yourself. Through my own trials, I've learned to respect these warning signs when it comes to my own emotional state when involved with someone else:
- The feeling right off the bat that you're getting emotionally swept up in an irrational whirlwind that your better judgment knows is the stuff of fantasies.
- If you feel like you and the person you're dating are on different playing fields and you don't understand the rules.
- Be very wary of rationalizing behaviors that make you feel creeped out, and of suppressing that creeped out feeling because you don't want to feel mean or overly judgmental or close-minded.
- You feel like you need to tiptoe around relationship issue conversations because you're afraid of scaring them off.
- Even if you do bring up these issues you're having about how the person is treating you, and the person takes it well and you immediately feel better and relieved for having had the discussion, be wary of having to do this repeatedly.
posted by wondermouse at 9:18 AM on May 16, 2013 [8 favorites]
A cruel fact of life is that it's impossible to know what a healthy dating/relationship dynamic is until you've experienced it for yourself. Through my own trials, I've learned to respect these warning signs when it comes to my own emotional state when involved with someone else:
- The feeling right off the bat that you're getting emotionally swept up in an irrational whirlwind that your better judgment knows is the stuff of fantasies.
- If you feel like you and the person you're dating are on different playing fields and you don't understand the rules.
- Be very wary of rationalizing behaviors that make you feel creeped out, and of suppressing that creeped out feeling because you don't want to feel mean or overly judgmental or close-minded.
- You feel like you need to tiptoe around relationship issue conversations because you're afraid of scaring them off.
- Even if you do bring up these issues you're having about how the person is treating you, and the person takes it well and you immediately feel better and relieved for having had the discussion, be wary of having to do this repeatedly.
posted by wondermouse at 9:18 AM on May 16, 2013 [8 favorites]
Here's what happened: he's an asshole.
As I read your piece, I thought, if you were asking how to make it work I was going to be really mad. Because there were at least 10 red flags, all of which I'm sure you noticed in retrospect. Especially when it comes to meeting your sexual needs and respecting your boundaries. You need to always hold the expectation of total respect from a potential partner. This guy sucks.
posted by SassHat at 9:28 AM on May 16, 2013 [4 favorites]
As I read your piece, I thought, if you were asking how to make it work I was going to be really mad. Because there were at least 10 red flags, all of which I'm sure you noticed in retrospect. Especially when it comes to meeting your sexual needs and respecting your boundaries. You need to always hold the expectation of total respect from a potential partner. This guy sucks.
posted by SassHat at 9:28 AM on May 16, 2013 [4 favorites]
Best answer: Agreeing with everyone, that guy was buckets of crazy and you're good to be rid of him.
Things to note:
- From what you wrote here it doesn't sound like you did anything wrong or unreasonable apart from put up with his inconsistent behaviour for so long. Do not allow anything that he said to affect you. Do not believe his accusations and blaming. Just be very thankful that you are rid of him. Use him as a template of things to avoid in future partners.
- beware of anyone who refers to themselves as "complicated" in a non-jokey way. Seriously. That is up there with people who go on about how ALL of their exes were crazy bitches. So often people use the "complicated" label as an excuse for being an asshole.
- The coming on strong thing CAN result in a good relationship, but more often than not it seems like it is just the drumroll to the cymbal crash of crazy. I had a lot of relationships start that way too, and I know exactly what you mean by the ick feeling, where it was good but also a bit off. You will be well served to pay attention to that feeling in the future.
- don't be afraid to say that you aren't getting what you want or feel you deserve from a relationship. Committed or not, you were in a relationship and you weren't happy. You don't need to apologize for feeling that way, nor do you have to just accept what you're given. He was dicking you around, especially with all the cancellations and mood swings. I think you knew that he wasn't on the level, but you tried to ignore it. Next time don't ignore it. Trust your instincts more.
- NEVER allow anyone to think you are being unreasonable for wanting them to treat you with kindness and respect and interest. His saying how he shouldn't have to show you all the time that he likes you... god. That made me so angry for you. You weren't asking him to constantly shower you with gifts or tattoo your name across his chest. You were asking for him to treat you in a kind, friendly, caring way. That is absolutely reasonable. Never give on that.
- The big mood shift you experienced after the STD confession was the key moment I think, and a big red flag to note for the future. Anyone who goes from OMG LOVE to halfhearted indifference for no reason is usually not someone you want to date. I avoid(ed) that type of person like the plague after being in a situation not that different from what you experienced. Trust me, the people who swing back and forth between being enamoured and indifferent are dangerous and distasters when it comes to dating. It is exhausting and emotionally damaging and I think manipulative. You live in a constant state of stress. When they are happy and lovey you worry about how long it will last. When they are indifferent and cold you worry about what you did to make them that way. ANYONE WHO DOES THE HOT-COLD THING IS NOT SOMEONE TO DATE. Full stop. Print that out. Repeat it every morning. There are a lot of people out there that do this (men and women alike) and I seriously feel they should always been avoided.
- If when telling someone about the person you're dating you find you have to avoid telling certain parts because you know they would sound bad to an outsider (like how he went MIA all the time, and the constant rescheduling of dates) then you're probably in a sketchy situation.
Don't give up hope. There are quality people out there, and while I don't know you from a hole in the wall I think you sound lovely. Just keep an eye out for someone who:
- doesn't give you any ick feelings
- makes you feel comfortable, not overwhelmed
- respects you and always treats you kindly
- doesn't come prepared with excuses/explanation for why they can treat you poorly (ie. "complicated", "shouldn't have to constantly show I like you", etc)
- makes you happy and excited, not anxious and confused
- behaves in such a way where you don't have to leave parts out or downplay or word carefully when telling your friends about him.
- Respects you
- RESPECTS YOU
posted by PuppetMcSockerson at 9:30 AM on May 16, 2013 [7 favorites]
Things to note:
- From what you wrote here it doesn't sound like you did anything wrong or unreasonable apart from put up with his inconsistent behaviour for so long. Do not allow anything that he said to affect you. Do not believe his accusations and blaming. Just be very thankful that you are rid of him. Use him as a template of things to avoid in future partners.
- beware of anyone who refers to themselves as "complicated" in a non-jokey way. Seriously. That is up there with people who go on about how ALL of their exes were crazy bitches. So often people use the "complicated" label as an excuse for being an asshole.
- The coming on strong thing CAN result in a good relationship, but more often than not it seems like it is just the drumroll to the cymbal crash of crazy. I had a lot of relationships start that way too, and I know exactly what you mean by the ick feeling, where it was good but also a bit off. You will be well served to pay attention to that feeling in the future.
- don't be afraid to say that you aren't getting what you want or feel you deserve from a relationship. Committed or not, you were in a relationship and you weren't happy. You don't need to apologize for feeling that way, nor do you have to just accept what you're given. He was dicking you around, especially with all the cancellations and mood swings. I think you knew that he wasn't on the level, but you tried to ignore it. Next time don't ignore it. Trust your instincts more.
- NEVER allow anyone to think you are being unreasonable for wanting them to treat you with kindness and respect and interest. His saying how he shouldn't have to show you all the time that he likes you... god. That made me so angry for you. You weren't asking him to constantly shower you with gifts or tattoo your name across his chest. You were asking for him to treat you in a kind, friendly, caring way. That is absolutely reasonable. Never give on that.
- The big mood shift you experienced after the STD confession was the key moment I think, and a big red flag to note for the future. Anyone who goes from OMG LOVE to halfhearted indifference for no reason is usually not someone you want to date. I avoid(ed) that type of person like the plague after being in a situation not that different from what you experienced. Trust me, the people who swing back and forth between being enamoured and indifferent are dangerous and distasters when it comes to dating. It is exhausting and emotionally damaging and I think manipulative. You live in a constant state of stress. When they are happy and lovey you worry about how long it will last. When they are indifferent and cold you worry about what you did to make them that way. ANYONE WHO DOES THE HOT-COLD THING IS NOT SOMEONE TO DATE. Full stop. Print that out. Repeat it every morning. There are a lot of people out there that do this (men and women alike) and I seriously feel they should always been avoided.
- If when telling someone about the person you're dating you find you have to avoid telling certain parts because you know they would sound bad to an outsider (like how he went MIA all the time, and the constant rescheduling of dates) then you're probably in a sketchy situation.
Don't give up hope. There are quality people out there, and while I don't know you from a hole in the wall I think you sound lovely. Just keep an eye out for someone who:
- doesn't give you any ick feelings
- makes you feel comfortable, not overwhelmed
- respects you and always treats you kindly
- doesn't come prepared with excuses/explanation for why they can treat you poorly (ie. "complicated", "shouldn't have to constantly show I like you", etc)
- makes you happy and excited, not anxious and confused
- behaves in such a way where you don't have to leave parts out or downplay or word carefully when telling your friends about him.
- Respects you
- RESPECTS YOU
posted by PuppetMcSockerson at 9:30 AM on May 16, 2013 [7 favorites]
He's got too much baggage to date right now, he tried, he freaked the fuck out, and then went ahead and sabotaged it but good.
Yeah, this is so much about you. Dude is crazy, and probably way not over the ex-girlfriend.
I also wonder if he actually even had genital herpes. It sounds like just another thing thrown on the giant pile of "No really you should not have sex with me!"
I wonder if he just didn't want to be the bad guy. Is he still talking to this ex at all?
posted by corb at 12:55 PM on May 16, 2013 [1 favorite]
Yeah, this is so much about you. Dude is crazy, and probably way not over the ex-girlfriend.
I also wonder if he actually even had genital herpes. It sounds like just another thing thrown on the giant pile of "No really you should not have sex with me!"
I wonder if he just didn't want to be the bad guy. Is he still talking to this ex at all?
posted by corb at 12:55 PM on May 16, 2013 [1 favorite]
As part of my side career as an armchair anthropologist, I like to read pickup artist (PUA) websites. Women who are currently dating men should absolutely be reading these websites. They are eyeball-meltingly toxic but they are a necessary education, especially for young women who want to see the best in people. Some men see those good qualities you have and they use them for their own ends in a very particular, patterned way. The instructions for preying on women this way are, essentially, all over the Internet.
"It's complicated" is almost a PUA catchphrase. That is popped up in your conversations over and over again -- well, that's a red flag so big it could be mistaken for the AIDS quilt.
posted by gentian at 7:55 PM on May 16, 2013 [8 favorites]
"It's complicated" is almost a PUA catchphrase. That is popped up in your conversations over and over again -- well, that's a red flag so big it could be mistaken for the AIDS quilt.
posted by gentian at 7:55 PM on May 16, 2013 [8 favorites]
All the guys I've dated long-term (none of whom were super-creeps) have come on strong, even had kind of dramatic mushy crushes on me-- but they've all built up over a period of months. The only guy I ever met and immediately hit it off with like fireworks lasted... one week. I think the amount of time they have to get all "timsneezed is the one for me!!!!" is the thing that matters (and how much of that time they actually spend getting to know you, not like watching you from across the room).
IMO this guy totally just felt like no one would accept him because of his herpes and once you did felt entitled to walk all over you. Like, I have a feeling he never really saw you the entire time, and as someone said above, he is in love with himself and his feelings (pow!). Some people care much more about themselves than other people.
posted by stoneandstar at 10:46 PM on May 24, 2013 [2 favorites]
IMO this guy totally just felt like no one would accept him because of his herpes and once you did felt entitled to walk all over you. Like, I have a feeling he never really saw you the entire time, and as someone said above, he is in love with himself and his feelings (pow!). Some people care much more about themselves than other people.
posted by stoneandstar at 10:46 PM on May 24, 2013 [2 favorites]
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 1:52 PM on May 15, 2013 [37 favorites]