Notice to Move
May 13, 2013 10:22 PM Subscribe
My landlord did not give any sort of notice -- lease is to end in August, but according to note, there's a move-out inspection on May 31st? What?!
My landlord and I discussed my lease in January as I was scheduled to move out February 28th. I explained that I did not have the time or money to move and that I would like to stay. She asked how long, I said August. We then discussed that at length and she asked me the following 2 times I went to the office to pay monthly rent–each time agreeing on August. Please note that at any time, if I asked if I should sign a new lease, she said that verbal agreement was fine.
Today I received a note on my door stating that I was scheduled to move out May 31st and that an inspection would be done on that date. I know she’s legally required to give me a 30-day notice to vacate. There was no talk of May being a move out date, and definitely nothing written stating I needed to move in May.
What do I do in this case if when I speak to her in the morning she still claims I need to move out on May 31st? I do not have anywhere to go — I still have little time to look for somewhere to move, and as I’ve given her the majority of the money I have for my rent here, I have no funds for getting a new place, either.
To make matters even more confusing, last week I received a notice that I was 10 dollars behind on rent -- since the monthly rate was 565. My rate has always been 555 and I've never received any kind of notice stating there was an increase.
My landlord and I discussed my lease in January as I was scheduled to move out February 28th. I explained that I did not have the time or money to move and that I would like to stay. She asked how long, I said August. We then discussed that at length and she asked me the following 2 times I went to the office to pay monthly rent–each time agreeing on August. Please note that at any time, if I asked if I should sign a new lease, she said that verbal agreement was fine.
Today I received a note on my door stating that I was scheduled to move out May 31st and that an inspection would be done on that date. I know she’s legally required to give me a 30-day notice to vacate. There was no talk of May being a move out date, and definitely nothing written stating I needed to move in May.
What do I do in this case if when I speak to her in the morning she still claims I need to move out on May 31st? I do not have anywhere to go — I still have little time to look for somewhere to move, and as I’ve given her the majority of the money I have for my rent here, I have no funds for getting a new place, either.
To make matters even more confusing, last week I received a notice that I was 10 dollars behind on rent -- since the monthly rate was 565. My rate has always been 555 and I've never received any kind of notice stating there was an increase.
Your landlord may be using the bogus rent increase (and your failure to pay it) as a "cause" for terminating your rent in a shorter time than normal.
You're going to need to document your interactions and talk to the local tenant's union or a lawyer to figure out next steps, but I would start with a letter to her stating the facts: that you agreed to a move out date of X, and your rent has always been Y, than you have never received notice from her that it is Y+$10, etc.
posted by zippy at 10:33 PM on May 13, 2013
You're going to need to document your interactions and talk to the local tenant's union or a lawyer to figure out next steps, but I would start with a letter to her stating the facts: that you agreed to a move out date of X, and your rent has always been Y, than you have never received notice from her that it is Y+$10, etc.
posted by zippy at 10:33 PM on May 13, 2013
And in that letter, be sure to mention the dates that you talked to her where the two of you agreed the move out date would be X. If you have old emails or phone records that document these conversations, even better.
posted by zippy at 10:34 PM on May 13, 2013
posted by zippy at 10:34 PM on May 13, 2013
Response by poster: Apartment. I won't give city, but this is Indiana. I've heard that even still, if they wanted to use increase as a reason, they would still need to give notice, and a 2 week notice does not seem legal.
posted by camylanded at 10:35 PM on May 13, 2013
posted by camylanded at 10:35 PM on May 13, 2013
Landlord/tenant laws are highly local. My city has different laws than my county (which has different laws than my state). I don't know anything about Indiana. Maybe try asking on avvo.com. (I've had good luck there with Landlord/Tenant issues.)
Typically, yes, they have to give notice to increase the rent and they have to give notice to end the lease. You should look up both of these times. (Even better if you can get the actual law.)
Did she actually cash your rent check for May yet? If she did, she may have agreed you paid rent by cashing it. (There is such a law here, but "here" is a very tenant-friendly locale.)
I would also look for a local tenant advocacy group, and especially see if you can get legal help for free or cheap from them. Maybe have them write you an official looking letter, and mail it to the landlord using certified mail (which will cost something like $6).
posted by ethidda at 10:39 PM on May 13, 2013 [1 favorite]
Typically, yes, they have to give notice to increase the rent and they have to give notice to end the lease. You should look up both of these times. (Even better if you can get the actual law.)
Did she actually cash your rent check for May yet? If she did, she may have agreed you paid rent by cashing it. (There is such a law here, but "here" is a very tenant-friendly locale.)
I would also look for a local tenant advocacy group, and especially see if you can get legal help for free or cheap from them. Maybe have them write you an official looking letter, and mail it to the landlord using certified mail (which will cost something like $6).
posted by ethidda at 10:39 PM on May 13, 2013 [1 favorite]
My landlord and I discussed my lease in January as I was scheduled to move out February 28th. I explained that I did not have the time or money to move and that I would like to stay. She asked how long, I said August.
In most jurisdictions you'd now be considered on a month to month lease, which in most jurisdictions would require 30 days notice. Findyour local tenants rights organisation, but I think you're going to need to be prepared to move out 30 days after she serves you with a legal notice.
posted by DarlingBri at 11:03 PM on May 13, 2013
In most jurisdictions you'd now be considered on a month to month lease, which in most jurisdictions would require 30 days notice. Findyour local tenants rights organisation, but I think you're going to need to be prepared to move out 30 days after she serves you with a legal notice.
posted by DarlingBri at 11:03 PM on May 13, 2013
DarlingBri would be right, yet since you are an apartment, I see ZERO reason for this to be a problem.
Is she crazy? Does she hate you? She gains nothing unless your rent is seriously under valued, or again, there is something you are not telling us.
Have you lived there over two years? At about two to four years, it is sometimes economically desirable to turn over a unit, but that is not a hard and fast formula.
Something is missing from your narrative, and that greatly colors any advice I might give you. Some landlords need an iron fist response, and some require a velvet glove.
YES you should clarify your rights particular to your jurisdiction, but what you should do after that to obtain a positive result... Unknown without more data!
posted by jbenben at 11:16 PM on May 13, 2013
Is she crazy? Does she hate you? She gains nothing unless your rent is seriously under valued, or again, there is something you are not telling us.
Have you lived there over two years? At about two to four years, it is sometimes economically desirable to turn over a unit, but that is not a hard and fast formula.
Something is missing from your narrative, and that greatly colors any advice I might give you. Some landlords need an iron fist response, and some require a velvet glove.
YES you should clarify your rights particular to your jurisdiction, but what you should do after that to obtain a positive result... Unknown without more data!
posted by jbenben at 11:16 PM on May 13, 2013
Is she crazy? Does she hate you? She gains nothing unless your rent is seriously under valued, or again, there is something you are not telling us.
Given the May 31 date, I assume that what she has is a waiting tenant willing to sign a 1-year lease starting 1 June. That is a substantial gain to this landlord.
posted by DarlingBri at 11:26 PM on May 13, 2013 [2 favorites]
Given the May 31 date, I assume that what she has is a waiting tenant willing to sign a 1-year lease starting 1 June. That is a substantial gain to this landlord.
posted by DarlingBri at 11:26 PM on May 13, 2013 [2 favorites]
If the OP is due a rent raise anyway, then a new tenant is not preferable to one who will pay the same rate.
If the landlord over-promised a unit as vacant that is now legally month-to-month and NOT vacant, then that is the landlord's problem, not the OP's.
Tenant Laws are pretty universal when it comes to 30 days written notice and the like. The particulars come in if the tenant does not live in a month-to-month friendly jurisdiction, but even then, 30 days notice for any major change in tenancy on either side is universal. (It's usually 24 hours notice for any inspection, apartment showing, or non-emergency service renedered by landlord...)
This situation doesn't make a lot of sense. I'm not keen yet on deploying a Howitzer, when a feather might do the job.
OP, please clarify if you can.
posted by jbenben at 11:49 PM on May 13, 2013
If the landlord over-promised a unit as vacant that is now legally month-to-month and NOT vacant, then that is the landlord's problem, not the OP's.
Tenant Laws are pretty universal when it comes to 30 days written notice and the like. The particulars come in if the tenant does not live in a month-to-month friendly jurisdiction, but even then, 30 days notice for any major change in tenancy on either side is universal. (It's usually 24 hours notice for any inspection, apartment showing, or non-emergency service renedered by landlord...)
This situation doesn't make a lot of sense. I'm not keen yet on deploying a Howitzer, when a feather might do the job.
OP, please clarify if you can.
posted by jbenben at 11:49 PM on May 13, 2013
Gather all of the paperwork you have (including bank statements proving that you paid your rent in full) and speak to a tenant's rights organization or a lawyer in your jurisdiction as soon as possible. Depending on where you live, your month-to-month status and your verbal agreement may or may not be enforceable. Someone familiar with the laws in your area is your best bet to handle this, especially since you have not provided enough details here for anyone to help you.
posted by twblalock at 12:23 AM on May 14, 2013
posted by twblalock at 12:23 AM on May 14, 2013
In the past, you've hosted long-term guests and presided over a cockroach infestation in this apartment, yes? The first link suggests that you were violating your lease terms and haven't always communicated well with your BF about the apartment. Do you know what conversations he's had re: the lease, if any? Are the other three people still staying with you? Oh and the landlord may well blame you (or your guests) for the infestation.
I raise these matters to caution you to be sure you know your own vulnerabilities before you go on the offensive. Striking a kind and conciliatory tone may be best; perhaps, at least initially, treat it as clearly a misunderstanding, especially since you know Landlord wouldn't violate Prior Oral Agreement and/or Pertinent Tenant Rights. This situation may be easily rectified so long as everyone has a chance to emerge from the discussions with dignity intact; otherwise your landlord's position will harden. You may win the battle (getting official 30-days notice) but lose the war (being obliged to move out before your preferred date). If you're in a college town, would departing a little earlier (August 15th, perhaps) be a big help to your landlord vis-a-vis accommodating new tenants? If so, offer that, along with pledges of keeping the apartment show-ready.
And for future reference, "I don't have any money" is never a good explanation to offer a landlord when negotiating a lease extension.
posted by carmicha at 3:54 AM on May 14, 2013 [3 favorites]
I raise these matters to caution you to be sure you know your own vulnerabilities before you go on the offensive. Striking a kind and conciliatory tone may be best; perhaps, at least initially, treat it as clearly a misunderstanding, especially since you know Landlord wouldn't violate Prior Oral Agreement and/or Pertinent Tenant Rights. This situation may be easily rectified so long as everyone has a chance to emerge from the discussions with dignity intact; otherwise your landlord's position will harden. You may win the battle (getting official 30-days notice) but lose the war (being obliged to move out before your preferred date). If you're in a college town, would departing a little earlier (August 15th, perhaps) be a big help to your landlord vis-a-vis accommodating new tenants? If so, offer that, along with pledges of keeping the apartment show-ready.
And for future reference, "I don't have any money" is never a good explanation to offer a landlord when negotiating a lease extension.
posted by carmicha at 3:54 AM on May 14, 2013 [3 favorites]
There are groups such as the Metropolitan Council on Housing in NYC that advocate for tenants' rights and have expertise on local regulations. They have also developed great expertise on resisting landlords.
Needless to say, they are politically WAY left of center, so you need to be sure you want to get involved with them.
There are probably similar groups in Indiana, and Met Council may be able to give you information on them.
IAAL. Remember that free thoughts on law are worth what you pay for them, and that I have no local expertise and no information about what actually happened between you and your landlord. Offhand, though, it seems that the landlord is trying to conjure up a binding agreement out of your casual mention that you intended to move.
Everything depends on your state and city laws and regulations covering the rights of tenants who want to stay in their apartments at the end of the lease. For this, you simply MUST have a local lawyer who specializes in this area. If you can't afford one, and Legal Aid is too backed up, get in touch with the largest local law firms and ask for the pro bono group. Also, local law schools are almost certain to have pro bono landlord-and-tenant clinics. The clerks at your local housing court are a great source for advice.
Let me repeat what others have said. It's crucial that you document everything. Keep notes on every exchange with your landlord. If it's legal in Indiana for you to record your phone conversations without the other party's consent, you should absolutely do so. Radio Shack sells inexpensive devices that record phone calls. Above all, SIGN NOTHING WITHOUT A LAWYER'S APPROVAL.
The mere mention of a lawyer will make your landlord delay and retreat. The last thing a landlord wants is to pay for a lawyer to deal with your lawyer.
If you have the stomach for a long fight, you will prevail. Even if you lose, you will create enough time to find a new apartment.
posted by KRS at 6:05 AM on May 14, 2013 [1 favorite]
Needless to say, they are politically WAY left of center, so you need to be sure you want to get involved with them.
There are probably similar groups in Indiana, and Met Council may be able to give you information on them.
IAAL. Remember that free thoughts on law are worth what you pay for them, and that I have no local expertise and no information about what actually happened between you and your landlord. Offhand, though, it seems that the landlord is trying to conjure up a binding agreement out of your casual mention that you intended to move.
Everything depends on your state and city laws and regulations covering the rights of tenants who want to stay in their apartments at the end of the lease. For this, you simply MUST have a local lawyer who specializes in this area. If you can't afford one, and Legal Aid is too backed up, get in touch with the largest local law firms and ask for the pro bono group. Also, local law schools are almost certain to have pro bono landlord-and-tenant clinics. The clerks at your local housing court are a great source for advice.
Let me repeat what others have said. It's crucial that you document everything. Keep notes on every exchange with your landlord. If it's legal in Indiana for you to record your phone conversations without the other party's consent, you should absolutely do so. Radio Shack sells inexpensive devices that record phone calls. Above all, SIGN NOTHING WITHOUT A LAWYER'S APPROVAL.
The mere mention of a lawyer will make your landlord delay and retreat. The last thing a landlord wants is to pay for a lawyer to deal with your lawyer.
If you have the stomach for a long fight, you will prevail. Even if you lose, you will create enough time to find a new apartment.
posted by KRS at 6:05 AM on May 14, 2013 [1 favorite]
Curious if you have any idea why she wants you to move out. Have you had a bad relationship? Why were you planning on leaving in August?
Understanding her motivation might help figure out a solution here.
posted by latkes at 6:25 AM on May 14, 2013
Understanding her motivation might help figure out a solution here.
posted by latkes at 6:25 AM on May 14, 2013
The paper phone book will usually have a section on consumer and tenant rights, with numbers you can call.
posted by theora55 at 7:21 AM on May 14, 2013
posted by theora55 at 7:21 AM on May 14, 2013
Here's the thing. If your initial, written lease has expired, you are on a month-to-month agreement. Also, your landlord may raise the rent at any time. She can also ask you to vacate with 30 days notice. There is no such thing as a verbal lease. Real Estate transactions are why law was invented.
Either way, you're moving, at the end of the month or in 30 days.
Pack up now. Start looking for a new place. If you have to get a storage unit for a month and couch surf, that's what's going to happen.
Clean well so that you get your deposit back, that way you'll have something to put down on a new place.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 7:54 AM on May 14, 2013 [1 favorite]
Either way, you're moving, at the end of the month or in 30 days.
Pack up now. Start looking for a new place. If you have to get a storage unit for a month and couch surf, that's what's going to happen.
Clean well so that you get your deposit back, that way you'll have something to put down on a new place.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 7:54 AM on May 14, 2013 [1 favorite]
Bring it to the landlord's attention. You are either dealing with a situation of miscommunication or they have another tenant. It is not going to do you any good to fight this if they want you out. Best advice- start looking this weekend, make arrangements for a storage space if necessary and look at the move as a fun adventure and a new beginning! Otherwise, you are taking a chance you might come home and find your belongings on the curb.
posted by bkeene12 at 9:55 AM on May 14, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by bkeene12 at 9:55 AM on May 14, 2013 [1 favorite]
This sounds like there is a new person working with her, filing and following up on things maybe. Maybe she has a tickler file that she just keeps moving you back one month, but new person didn't know that and panicked and tried to get a 30-day notice out to you asap. One way or the other it sounds like miscommunication. I hope so. Talk to her asap. If she tells you you're good until August, see if she will agree to something in writing (but please be careful with that suggestion, IANAL nor am I an expert on tenant law).
posted by vignettist at 12:25 PM on May 14, 2013
posted by vignettist at 12:25 PM on May 14, 2013
"Please note that at any time, if I asked if I should sign a new lease, she said that verbal agreement was fine."
Now you know it wasn't.
posted by flimflam at 2:42 PM on May 14, 2013
Now you know it wasn't.
posted by flimflam at 2:42 PM on May 14, 2013
Oral leases are valid in NYC, but how will you prove you had one? Do you have anything to back up your claim?
posted by zippy at 3:23 PM on May 14, 2013
posted by zippy at 3:23 PM on May 14, 2013
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This thread is closed to new comments.
That said, right now, I think you are over-reacting a little bit. All of this is easily cleared up and I am 99% sure you won't have to move, unless you left something truly critical out of your question.
Also, what kind of rental is this? A room? An apartment? A multi-unit building, or a private house??
Thanks.
posted by jbenben at 10:31 PM on May 13, 2013