Got the Italian Girlfriend Blues...
May 9, 2013 8:47 AM   Subscribe

Any tips from Metafiltrati with latin/italian lady experience to make things calmer or more manageable?

About 4 months ago my Italian gf moved in with me and since then we've gone through patches of insane arguments and peace and loving tranquility.

The main gripes seem to be: my seeming "lack of passion", her not feeling "at home" in my house because I say things like "would you mind not putting chicken carcasses in the compost" and various other random things I don't quite understand where they've come from. The other dispiriting thing is that when she does get annoyed about things it's just one thing after another which becomes totally deflating.

I'm a pretty calm English dude and the things she gets mad at seem to be quite unreasonable, but then I get mad when she extends these seemingly unimportant things out for hours and hours. I've learnt Italian since being with her and I've spent a few years in Latin countries in Europe so I'm not completely unfamiliar with their way of doing things, I just don't think I've got it right. The good bits are enough to make me want to persevere, but the bad bits are just doing me in. She seems to be able to switch on an off this angry mode but it leaves me messed up for hours as I'm totally not used to this kind of lovers conflict!

Before I decide enough is enough, I'd like to do my best to be able to make things work. Any tips dudes/dudesses?
posted by letsgomendel to Human Relations (43 answers total) 2 users marked this as a favorite
 
You could try by interacting with her as an individual instead of assuming that all women of a certain background are alike. Also, is there maybe a bit of a language barrier you need to overcome?
posted by elizardbits at 8:50 AM on May 9, 2013 [65 favorites]


Either she's unstable or you're perceiving her as unstable -- probably best to call it quits.
posted by charlemangy at 8:51 AM on May 9, 2013


Response by poster: @elizardbits - it's been a year dude so I've certainly learnt to see her as an individual. I've also been in a 5 year relationship with a Polak, spent 5 years living abroad and quite heavily involved in the Couchsurfing website - so I'm not without experience with other cultures. I'm conversational in Italian already, though not fluent.

Of course, every person is an individual but there's also a decent amount of cultural baggage that comes with any person, this is the stuff I'm more interested in for the point of this thread.
posted by letsgomendel at 8:58 AM on May 9, 2013


If she's in a new country with a different culture (England) then she may be going through a rough adjustment. I know I did when I first moved to the UK. You miss things from back home and you get frustrated with all the new things coming at you all at once in your new home. This may be what she is trying to tell you with her saying she is not feeling at home.

In that case, it is not really about Latin culture, it is about someone from culture x making a transition to culture y. As elizardbits says, talk to her as a person. Help her feel at home. Be patient and understanding. If it is an adjustment period, then it does usually get better with time.
posted by vacapinta at 8:58 AM on May 9, 2013 [2 favorites]


I agree with elizardbits: think of these things as being her, not "them". And in doing so, you will probably realize that things like temperament and mood stability are deeply engrained personality traits that will not change much no matter what.
posted by Dansaman at 8:59 AM on May 9, 2013 [3 favorites]


Oh man, so this guy I'm dating, when he makes the bed he doesn't tuck the sheets in at the bottom and it drives me nuts! And when I make the bed, I DO tuck the sheets in at the bottom and it drives him nuts! It's crazytown!

What's even weirder is that we're both super white and half German with an otherwise Euro-mutt heritage, so, like, where possibly could these two completely incompatible attitudes arise from?! It's almost like each of us independently have our own ways of doing things! Ridiculous!


Which is to say I think this has far, far less to do with the fact that she's Italian and you're English than it does with the fact that she is who she is and you are who you are, and it sounds like the two of you are personally incompatible.

Sucks, but it happens. In times like this, the best thing is just to end the relationship before you both get in too deep and make yourselves crazy.
posted by phunniemee at 9:01 AM on May 9, 2013 [28 favorites]


It sounds like you do not want her to do a thing, you want her to be a way. That is not a recipe for relationship success.

Also, yeah, you are coming off as kind of a racist here, dude.
posted by Etrigan at 9:02 AM on May 9, 2013 [23 favorites]


Best answer: So here's the thing. You're right in that some of this may be cultural, but for the purposes of the conversation you need to have with her, it doesn't really matter, because you're not dealing with her on a cultural level, you're dealing with her on a very specific, individual level.

You need to sit down and have a talk with her and leave Italian culture out of it. Talking about someone's culture as causing problems is a great way to get them on the defensive, which is fine for sociological debate but less helpful for problem-solving in relationships unless you are already very very skilled at resolving conflicts between you, which doesn't sound like it's the case.

You need to have this talk when you're both not already angry-- during one of the "good times", so to speak. And then you need to say, "Hey, GF, I know you don't mean to put me on the defensive so often, but when you do X I feel Y." Use "I" statements. Assume good intentions on her part. Basically, treat it like you would any other mature problem solving between adults in a (usually) mutually beneficial relationship. If she starts saying things like, "I don't understand why you feel like Y because when I do X I mean [this other thing]," then yes, that could be cultural. But that's still not terribly relevant in this situation, because you don't need to foster understanding between two cultures, you need to foster understanding between two people. So if that comes up and you think it's cultural, you don't need to say, Italian v. English. You need to say something like, "Oh, my interpretation of this action is THIS and it's very hurtful and it makes it difficult for me to calm down, so can we please both work on it? I will work on remembering you're not doing it to hurt me and you can work on not doing it so often?"

If you aren't willing to put in the effort of having a tricky conversation like this, or if she can't or won't hear you or meet you halfway, then yes, it's probably time to either have a serious talk with a counselor about underlying issues (such as depression and isolation due to moving) or to call things quits. Good luck.
posted by WidgetAlley at 9:06 AM on May 9, 2013 [25 favorites]


Got the Italian Girlfriend Blues...
Any tips from Metafiltrati with latin/italian lady experience to make things calmer or more manageable?

There are much better ways to frame a "help me understand these cultural differences between me and my Italian girlfriend" question than how you worded it here. I say this as gently as possible: you don't come off well.

The phrasing reads like: "My Italian girlfriend is prone to becoming irrationally angry about silly things. Other American men, you must have gone through this with your Italian women, because Italian women in general are prone to becoming irrationally angry about silly things. Please tell me what to do."

I doubt that you're going to get the cultural advice you're looking for, because you sound like you see her first as an Italian girl and second as an individual with her own personality. Maybe that's not true, but that's the way your phrasing sounds.
posted by The Girl Who Ate Boston at 9:21 AM on May 9, 2013 [27 favorites]


Speaking as someone who has a little demon inside him that can and does blow up to something much bigger than my body at times, taking control over my mind and body, I can relate to her. Sort of. I realize that I AM THE ONE WHO IS WRONG/CRAZY. That's where my SO comes in. He's always calm, cool, and collected. And he loves me. When I get apeshit, he looks at me, smiles, says "I love you soo much", then leaves me to rant it out by myself, giving me loads of space. He doesn't fuel any fires.
That said, maybe you and her aren't right for each other. It's one thing to have faults, it's another to have faults and not admit or work on them.
posted by QueerAngel28 at 9:23 AM on May 9, 2013 [1 favorite]


Best answer: Cultural differences are certainly a real thing, and the points of friction between you and her may indeed be rooted in such things. But the key to dealing with cultural differences in a relationship is exactly the same as dealing with bog-standard interpersonal differences of any stripe.

You first need to come to a mutual understanding that these things are a problem. This is often the biggest initial barrier--one person feels there is a problem, and the other person things everything is working just fine. You're not going to get anywhere unless both of you both believe that when the other person had a problem, it merits calm discussion and an effort to resolve. And that goes both ways: her complaint about your lack of passion is just as legitimate as your complaint about the frequency or intensity of her anger.

What has been her response when you've talked (outside of the heat of the moment) about how her anger is making you miserable? What has been your response when she complains about your lack of passion?
posted by drlith at 9:24 AM on May 9, 2013 [1 favorite]


(Sorry, I wrote "American men" instead of "English men," but you get the idea.)
posted by The Girl Who Ate Boston at 9:25 AM on May 9, 2013


Best answer: Confidence.

Show your "passion" by using stronger, less deferential language and by letting her tantrums roll off your back.

Instead of "Oh, dear! Would you eversomuch mind acquiescing to my perhaps unexpectedly fastidious rules regarding the compost bin? You see, one would prefer to not ha..."

No.

You say "Don't put flesh or bones in the compost! This is not a butchery. Gross. Seriously don't." Then seal it with a kiss.
posted by General Tonic at 9:25 AM on May 9, 2013 [10 favorites]


Mod note: Constructive, helpful answers folks.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 9:30 AM on May 9, 2013


Best answer: Ignoring the possible racist undertones to address the question...

To the degree that this is cultural, I think the best thing to do is discuss that directly with her. Tell her: I know you are used to a culture where people are a bit more vocal than England. This transition must be hard for you -- I know that moving to Italy would be hard for me.

Ask: What challenges are you facing? What do you miss about home? When you get angry like that, would would an Italian boyfriend do in response? What would your brother do in response?

If it really is cultural and you two really love each other, you might be able to make a big joke out of this. Like you playact the "Italian boyfriend" who runs around the kitchen having a fit over nothing and she playacts the "English girlfriend" who hems and haws and says things in the most mealymouthed way possible.

There must be some funny movie about these stereotypes that you could watch together and it could make all of these things seem amusing. You could post another metafilter question asking for some examples. My boyfriend and I are from the same culture, but we often playact the other person's responses in a loving way to relieve the tension about the ways we are different.

You could talk with her about her family of origin and how people deal with conflict and listen to her stories about what is considered normal and acceptable -- then share some of your own. Maybe there was a time growing up when the house was on fire and you all just politely called the fire marshall and sat down for a cup of tea. Etc.

I can see this building closeness between you if you approach it the right way.
posted by 3491again at 9:35 AM on May 9, 2013 [4 favorites]


I've also been in a 5 year relationship with a Polak

Did you know that "polack" is considered an offensive slur? The Oxford English Dictionary says of it, "Now derogatory and offensive." This phrasing does not really help your case.
posted by grouse at 9:35 AM on May 9, 2013 [61 favorites]


I'm wondering if your style of communication is perhaps part of the problem. When I read your question and follow up, I though that you might be trolling the site. Both an Italian and a Pole? How broadminded of you.

If you see her as an individual, then you need to scrub your communications of the language that is misleadingly indicating a racism. She's not part of some collective Italian women. She's not some foreign "they".

Language is important. You are referring to her as foreign and different; therefore, she doesn't feel welcome in your home.
posted by 26.2 at 9:38 AM on May 9, 2013 [7 favorites]


I'm not going to tell you to forget that she is Italian, because clearly there are language and cultural issues at work here. But even more, I think your communication style could use some improvement. Your update makes you sound defensive and a little bit controlling. (Although, people that update a lot in relationship questions often sound that way to me.)

As a matter of interest, how did your Polish girlfriend feel about being called a "Polak"?
posted by BibiRose at 9:38 AM on May 9, 2013 [5 favorites]


I think you need to start over with this question. There's too much focus on her "cultural baggage" and very little about specific conflicts, which are what we could actually help you with. You come across as being incredibly dismissive of her feelings which I imagine only fuels her feeling that you lack passion for her and that she isn't welcome in your home.
posted by sm1tten at 9:58 AM on May 9, 2013 [1 favorite]


Mod note: Folks, honestly, putting your sarcastic answers in Italian does not make them magically okay here.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 9:58 AM on May 9, 2013 [3 favorites]


There is a type of European racism that I encounter all the time living in my multicultural city. People (especially men, but also women) tend to stereotype strongly by someone's country of origin. It's very objectifying. This has really taken off since the EU years, though it occurred even prior. There is a version of it in dating... there is a type of man who seems to want to sample every item from the buffet, and go through a phase of adolescence / post college years where he dates a variety of women from other countries... maybe even sampling a woman from every country. IMO it's particularly stomach-turning type of womanizing and racism. Just because people from Sweden tend to look (on average) more similar to each other than people from Italy, it doesn't mean they have the same personalities. I'm Italian and I don't put carcasses in the compost, nor am I particularly passionate. (People have complained I'm not passionate enough, in fact.) It's not a cultural issue. Treat her like an individual. BTW if someone called me "an Italian" as a way to compare me with another woman who is "a Polack" I would find that in and of itself insulting. I'm not "an Italian." I am an individual, who happens to have been born in Italy. It's just as insulting as to say, "I dated a blonde and a brunette this year." Women are not their hair colors, or their countries of origin, and it sucks to be summarized as such.

That being said... discussions about families and cultures of origin are interesting. They're fun to have with a partner. But if you start with racial stereotypes that conversation can become pretty off putting.
posted by htid at 10:00 AM on May 9, 2013 [30 favorites]


Tip from an Italian lady: stop ascribing her behavior and annoyances with you to being an Italian lady. Your differences are human differences and you othering her is obnoxious and counterproductive. Also incredibly offensive.

Talk to her and communicate your relationship needs just like you would with any other person.

Reposted without the Italian, which actually wasn't sarcastic in the least.
posted by lydhre at 10:04 AM on May 9, 2013 [7 favorites]


Consider your communication styles and work from that angle and be willing to adapt some. It made me sad to hear someone say "oh, typical Latina" when they don't even know me. She did just move to another country so approach it with compassion and gentle directness. Sometimes you just need to be firm, but with a gentle tone. My favorite is when someone says "I love you, you know I do, but [insert thing here] has to stop. How can I help you"
posted by happysocks at 10:04 AM on May 9, 2013


Best answer: I'm familiar with being in the "emotionally churned up" phase after arguments that did not seem to affect my girlfriends equally (in my experience this hasn't correlated with ethnicity).

You mentioned that your gf also can seemingly flip a switch on and off re: arguments, and I really recommend communicating in very clear terms that you're emotionally drained by these experiences in ways your g-f might not be.

In my last relationship, I realized I had to draw a boundary especially about having fights at night. It would drive me crazy to have a spat that would keep me up for hrs. afterwards while seeing my partner easily drift off to peaceful rest. So I made a proposal and we agreed that in the late evening, unless controversial X was an emergency, we'd have to table discussion of controversial X until the next day.

I think being honest about the emotional suffering that arguments are causing you, identifying and drawing some red lines at the borders of what you can handle (vs. merely find somewhat inconvenient), as well as of course making a good faith effort to iron out genuine difficulties, might help the situation and give g-f some insight into where you're coming from.
posted by airing nerdy laundry at 10:07 AM on May 9, 2013


Best answer: Not to jump on the Italian stereotype bandwagon, but if you remove any reference to country or culture in your post, it would read like a normal AskMe about a struggling relationship.

Moved in together 4 months ago. It's frustrating that all the little things I do annoy her to no end, and we end up fighting and then making up. What should I do?

Keep in mind that she moved into your house and may not feel at home yet. This can be a normal occurrence. Make her feel at home. Let her decorate several rooms the way she wants. Let her put stuff where she wants to.

If I didn't feel at home someplace, a question like: "Would you not mind putting chicken carcasses in the compost?" would hurt me, make me ashamed, and make me feel like I wasn't totally welcome.

Not saying that you should give her the entire run of your house, but if you don't like chicken rotting in the trash (neither do I) you can let her know why you don't do that, and perhaps your experience with leaving raw chicken in the trash and the ensuing smell.

If you are going to keep this relationship alive and beneficial for both, you may want to be ultra-understanding during this time, and keep a communication "hotline" open until you both figure things out.
posted by Debaser626 at 10:25 AM on May 9, 2013 [2 favorites]


Agree with everyone that this seems like a basic reltaionship isn't working type situation, not a symptom of her country of origin.

She's trying to tell you what she needs/isn't getting from the relationship, albeit maybe not in the best way. I'm guessing her "lack of passion" complaint is how she is telling you that she doesn't feel you have much of an emotional investment in her and the relationship. Her "not feeling at home" is probably exactly that - she doesn't feel comfortable at at home in your house. Maybe she feels that you haven't done much/enough to make it feel like both of your home, instead of her moving in to YOUR home. This isn't an uncommon thing, she isn't necessarily being totally ridiculous on this one. My sister hasn't been able to feel truly at home in her partner's house despite living there for two years, so he is actually going to sell his house so that they can buy one TOGETHER that will be THEIRS not his. Maybe she is feeling that all the functioning of the house is based upon your preferences and your rules that you had established when you lived there alone and you haven't given any space for her preferences to be taken in to account. Yes, the chicken thing is for legit reasons, but I am betting that there have been a LOT of other examples where your request is more to do with your preference over hers. When I moved in with my partner I moved in to HIS house that he had lived in for about a decade. He had a lot of ways he did things, and they had been that way for a very long time. For the first bit I felt a little like I was living in HIS house, not living together. We talked about it and we negotiated some of my preferences in to things, and accepted that for some things (like where the salt and pepper shakers go, or whether or not we can eat on the couch) we just have differing feelings on it and we're just going to do our own thing. I try to ignore when he leaves the closet door open. He tries to ignore when I don't put the knife back on the cutting board. Plus, we took down some of his things on the wall so that I could hang up some of my things. We changed a few light fixtures (long over due by his own admission) and painted the bathroom. The end result is it being OUR home and we both love it. It reflects both of us. Does the home you share with her reflect both of you equally, or is it still your house that she is living in?

Both her complaints speak to her feeling insecure in her relationship with you. She isn't feeling like you're totally invested in the relationship and that you care as much as she does. Address that. Take her nationality out of it, that has nothing to do with it.
posted by PuppetMcSockerson at 10:29 AM on May 9, 2013 [1 favorite]


Best answer: Is your girlfriend a bottlerocket? I myself (American, but whatever) have a BAD tendency to collect my grievances silently and then once i am full of grievances and cant take it anymore explode in a screaming fit.

THis is bad and it is a fault within myself. I stew on my grievances and in the cooking process they become replay loops and it becomes an echochamber of negativity and somewhere along the way morphs into something like justification at feeling thath way because of couse HE must not even care about me to say or do such things all the time. Something like this could contributing to her "lack of passion" complaints.

I'm trying to work on this, but as it pertains to you, maybe try encouraging your girlfriend to talk about things thath are bothing her as they come up so they dont fester and build into something huge. If she's silent and you see negative body language, take initiative to ask if anything is wrong. You might have to step out of your comfort bounds to make this work as it might at first feel like encouraging confrontation, but a bunch of little confrontations can be constructive whereas big messy multifacted confrontations are disruptive.

BEst of luck, and never use Polak in public again.
posted by WeekendJen at 10:32 AM on May 9, 2013 [4 favorites]


I recently moved into my boyfriend's apartment and I still do not feel at home even a little bit. It is all his stuff, all his way of doing things, my stuff was basically put on top of his stuff. I got a little bit of the closet and two drawers that are mine all mine but everything else is his. It is driving me frickin bananas. Like, I can feel myself getting incredibly annoyed and angry at little things because THIS IS NOT MY HOME AND WHY HAVEN'T YOU DONE ANYTHING TO MAKE IT FEEL LIKE MY HOME?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

So maybe she feels a little like that?

Do you own your home? Maybe you should try moving? I know that seems drastic but maybe if you move into a place that belongs to both of you rather than always feeling like a guest at your place she can feel more at home. Somewhere that you both picked out, or maybe think about new furniture that you go together to get. Or re-do the closet - take every single item out and then put both of your stuff back in it together rather than just shoving your stuff over a little.

(My situation is temporary - we are buying a house together - which is really the only thing that keeps me from screaming about it)
posted by magnetsphere at 11:47 AM on May 9, 2013 [3 favorites]


Best answer: Nthing that this seems like a basic new-relationship question.

Addressing your question of how to "manage" it, honestly, the best advice is to see her as an individual, not a symptom of your own stereotypes. You will find it much easier to achieve that goal (of seeing her as an individual) if you start off by realizing that your question and followup are essentially your own stereotypes arguing with each other.

We do not know anything about your girlfriend other than she is Italian, which is pretty much like me saying I'm a Frenchwoman living in France, a few dozen kilometres from the Italian border. I speak Italian and read (even wrote, once upon a time) Latin. Which, if you know my posting history at all, is so reductionist it's wild. If you added to that the fact that I have several English friends as well as French friends who have lived in England, you still know perfectly nothing other than their geographical origins.

You need to be more specific. Arguments about what goes in the compost pile are had in every country and every culture. The closest you get to specifics is that she gets angry, which is also not culturally specific. (Yes, I have Italian friends as well, all of them very level-headed.)

Here are a few questions that might help you pin down some specifics that would help get you more constructive replies:
- Has she been able to find work in England? (This could be a MAJOR source of stress for her if no.)
- Is her job one that she finds fulfilling?
- How much blowback is she getting for being a "foreigner" from others? It can be very alienating, and her stress levels might be high because she feels ignored and/or pigeonholed into stereotypes by others too.
- Did she have some say in your accommodations? That can help feel less uprooted.
- Is she close to her family? If yes, is she able to keep in touch with them as much as she wants?
- Is she able to find her favorite foods?
- What are her favorite hobbies? Is she able to do them?
- Has she been able to make friends there? How do you get along with her friends?
posted by fraula at 11:52 AM on May 9, 2013 [5 favorites]


Response by poster: Thanks for all the response folks! Much appreciated all your comments and feedback.

From the response, I guess didn't spend enough time on the phrasing of the question as it can be a sensitive topic. Sorry about that. I have a huge interest and wish to gain deep insight into the culture of my partner (as well as my own) through other people's experiences but I probably should have crafted a slightly less boorish question! And perhaps it wasn't the best context to talk about the subject - I'd happily concede that these issues are mostly a personal thing rather than a cultural thing.

Minchia, it's a hard thing all this life + people + love combination no matter where you're from. I still feel like a bloody beginner. I'll have a reread and proper digestion of all your comments and perhaps write something a little less superficial after I've made dinner - and once again - thanks for the feedback.

PS Apologies, but I hadn't understood that Polak was offensive term - I lived there for a few years and just used the term they called themselves. Forgive my ignorance.
posted by letsgomendel at 12:08 PM on May 9, 2013 [1 favorite]


Best answer: Did the arguments start when you moved in together? Cohabitation can be incredibly difficult, even with couples who adore each other and had previously gotten along quite well. All of a sudden, you're around all of this person, all of the time, and you have to get used to their boring and annoying parts in addition to the parts you fell in love with.

Dealing with all the minor irritations is like collecting marbles and putting them in a plastic bag. If you don't know what to do with the marbles, you're stuck carrying them around for a while. That's fine if you've got only a couple, or if you're good at putting them away after you pick them up. But with enough marbles, the bag bursts and everything comes clattering out. It sounds like that's what's happening when your girlfriend explodes at you. It could be that she doesn't put her marbles away in time, or she's really good at finding marbles, or she's got a smaller bag than you do, or there's a large heavy problem in her bag adding to the weight. It could be that you don't feel the need to pick up any marbles, or you don't notice them, or you're accidentally kicking them in her direction, or her large heavy problem is partly yours and you're letting her carry all of it.

The solution depends on the cause(s). It'll be a joint effort. It'll involve each of you figuring out how to effectively manage your marbles, and what you can each do to minimize the other person's marble load. It'll require both of you to have a conversation about what to do. The best time to have this conversation is when you're both calm and not in the middle of a conflict.

This happens with all ethnicities, cultures, genders, and types of relationship.
posted by Metroid Baby at 12:12 PM on May 9, 2013 [2 favorites]


Response by poster: @Fraula (et al) - you're absolutely right - I haven't gone into enough detail about her situation - again - apologies for the rushed form of question and I hope I can do some justice to answer your thoughtful replies properly.

What you've said has pretty much hit the nail on the head.

- Has she been able to find work in England? (This could be a MAJOR source of stress for her if no.)
Nope. She quit a shitty hotel job in December before moving in to find some new, better work. She also came to the UK on a bit of a whim and couldn't speak English when she arrived.


- How much blowback is she getting for being a "foreigner" from others? It can be very alienating, and her stress levels might be high because she feels ignored and/or pigeonholed into stereotypes by others too.
Hmm a difficult one. She thinks that she's getting blowback but sometimes I feel that this is exaggerated sometimes a la confirmation bias. ie she calls the council and can't get to the person she wants to and blames it on her being a foreigner. It feels like a bit of a dangerous situation where you can quickly end up feeling alienated through your own thoughts and feelings towards arseholes who exist everywhere.

- Has she been able to make friends there? How do you get along with her friends?
There have been some issues on this front. She's made some friends but again, some problems. Where we are (Brighton) is quite a transient place and seemingly not so stable as other cities or like in Italy where according to her - she was able to form relationships more easily

I'll add one of my own:
- What about the eternal English question of the weather?
With the worst Summer in recent memory last year, and a long Winter this year, it has been a bit of an issue just the weather! Doesn't help.

In terms of the feeling at home issue - I asked her tonight what I could do to make her feel more at home and she said "nothing more - just be more gentle/polite when you're asking these things and don't do it in front of other people."
posted by letsgomendel at 12:22 PM on May 9, 2013


"don't do it in front of other people"

That's more than an eminently reasonable request, it may mean you owe her an apology.
posted by airing nerdy laundry at 1:12 PM on May 9, 2013 [2 favorites]


Best answer: I agree with the folks who say you should approach her as an individual, and that some of these sound like very normal classic just-moved-in problems.

That said, I lived in Italy and dated my share of Italian men, and spent a long time talking with both sexes about the different ways that Romans and Americans conceptualize romance, sex, fidelity, commitment, arguments, marriage and so forth. There are some major differences and it was helpful to me to understand what some general Roman perspectives were on these topics.

One point salient to your question is that arguing was more acceptable to most Romans than it was to most Americans I knew; people of both genders were a lot more assertive when talking (a la Admiral Haddock's suggestion about don't use deferential language).

Anyway, if I were dating your girlfriend I'd sit down. First I'd tell her about my own cultural values and expectations ("In my family we don't argue much...it's considered to be a really big deal if we argue in X way...we usually resolve our issues through Y process...an ideal live-in romance in my cultural expectation looks like $THIS...so these are the cultural ideas I'm coming into this relationship with") and then I'd segue into asking about her own personal and cultural hopes, ideals, preconceptions and dreams ("I am so crazy about you and I want to make this work, please explain more to me, how do you think about arguing? How does your family solve problems? When you say our relationship lacks passion, what exactly does that mean? What would a perfect live-in relationship look like for you?") Every relationship, even between individuals from the same culture, has problems of clashing expectations, but it really helps to know some of the cultural underpinnings behind people's thinking.
posted by feets at 1:45 PM on May 9, 2013 [3 favorites]


Best answer: p.s. On a much more superficial level, the Romans I knew LOVED tiny gifts. Like if I brought friends/lovers/roommates a slice of cake, or a tiny bouquet of flowers, or a paperback book or a tchotcke, people would get so much more excited about it than your average American would. (Maybe you could say it's a more common Roman "love language"?) That isn't going to solve your relationship problems, but it's a useful thing to know in case it carries over to your partner: try bringing home a few little gifts and see if you can get your balance going up in the "relationship bank."
posted by feets at 1:48 PM on May 9, 2013 [2 favorites]


Best answer: I've been the foreign woman in a relationship with a local several times, and I disagree with the people who are pooh-poohing the possible cultural aspect of this. I agree with the suggestions that you talk about it in terms of family or past experience, as in, "How would an Italian boyfriend probably respond to this?" and so on, so you can both understand the underlying assumptions. There can be a mountain of unexpressed expectations in play, and a lot of them do come from culture.

Also, I and other immigrant friends have found ourselves in relationships in which the local partner says, for example, "Oooo, I love Brazilians!" to a Brazilian, but once they're in the relationship, it turns into, "You have to stop being so Brazilian!"

My culture and experience are part of the package. I'm certainly willing to modify my reactions, say things differently, dress differently, and act differently to a degree, but I can't magically erase an entire lifetime of cultural training, nor do I want to. Make sure you're not asking her to become 100% British. Change has to come from both sides, and there should be a meeting point in between the two.
posted by ceiba at 2:17 PM on May 9, 2013 [3 favorites]


The two of you literally don't speak the same language. If you've studied Italian part-time for less than a year, and she's studied English full-time for four months, even if she knew a little before, you have nowhere near the language proficiency to have complex conversations with one another about your feelings and about how insecure and lonely she must be feeling. So that's coming out as fights.

I think the first thing she needs to do is find her own community and her own friends who speak her language. It's incredibly alienating not to be able to communicate with people. If there are no other Italian-speakers in your area, especially if people are really transient and hard to befriend, I think you need to seriously consider moving. This relationship is simply not going to work out if she continues to become more and more unhappy, which I think is the likely outcome if she remains so dependent on you and has no one with whom she can really talk.
posted by decathecting at 2:53 PM on May 9, 2013


Response by poster: Thanks feets that's exactly what I was looking for! Although I maybe I didn't go about asking for it the right way... Maybe it doesn't seem obvious from the question but of course I understand that she's an individual but there's some cultural things that just seem to hit me round the head that I just can't quite understand.

The arguing thing just doesn't seem to be a massive deal for her - or rather - it's a way of expressing yourself - and often your love for the other person. My family and our English ways do it completely differently, leaving the shit unsaid that should be said sooner rather than the classic bottlenecking.

A recent example: we're on holiday and our host (a Couchsurfer) who hung out with us the first day, wants to meet up the next day. She doesn't want to rush but I assume we're going to keep the appointment. We're in a garden and I decide to go on the shorter route because of the appointment and I decide that a cheap free glass of wine at the far end of the garden will take to long. I should have consulted, I know... Next thing I know we're arguing our way into town and we've met up with the host. The gf is livid and I don't understand why. I leave her when we get to a beach for a bit, then try to bring her a towel and she throws it in my face. I leave as I think she wants to be alone and the next thing I know she's walking home - 30 kms away from our home without a phone or the address of where we're staying. I follow and we end up arguing all the way home until 3am. All the while she's telling me how stupid I am to not cancel this appointment and how annoyed she was that we missed a free glass of wine because of this crazy host of ours that is wanting too much from us - but it's my fault. This goes on and on and on. She's driving me crazy. She's walking through motorway tunnels and I've no choice but to follow as she won't change her mind. I don't understand the point but I think she's just trying to train me or something. We walk towards the house and all the time she's saying she's going to stay in a hostel and she doesn't care if she doesn't have any of her bags. Eventually after much cajoling she comes back to the house but only to pick up her bags and leave somewhere else. She packs them, walks out the front door at 3am. 10 minutes later I hear a knocking on the door. She's there and says, "non posso stare sensa di te" (I can't live without you). And with that I'm supposed to smile and welcome her back into the house and forget about the last 12 hours of her being extremely pissed off and miserable... She's then pissed off that I'm not warm and open-armed (quite upset and stressed actually) - and in the morning too - it's another hour or two because I should be happy and just forget about all that.

Eventually it got sorted and calmed down but part of me can't help think that maybe this means something else in a different cultural context...
posted by letsgomendel at 3:07 PM on May 9, 2013


Response by poster: @ceiba - I thought I was the only one! I NEVER have had any comments about racism or me playing up the Italian card from her. I've never asked her to change how she is or modify her nature in any way apart from sensible things that any partner would ask them (ie not arguing before bed or for 12 hours straight).

@decathecting - Language-wise, I'd play it down, we don't have many issues on that front. However, it is an issue for her (as it has been in the past for me) to be in an environment where natives are speaking - this can be very difficult too.
posted by letsgomendel at 3:18 PM on May 9, 2013


She quit a shitty hotel job in December before moving in to find some new, better work. She also came to the UK on a bit of a whim and couldn't speak English when she arrived.

So, in addition to all the cultural translation (at a minimum) issues, she's got no money to speak of, and she lives in your house with you, with all the problems others have experienced under much more equitable conditions & described above. Your relationship reeks of power imbalance, and you can't know what your relationship would be like otherwise, until she's on her feet. (Maybe not even then, because you already have a bunch of patterns and memories.)

I would do what I could to support her job search, the way she wants to be supported (just ask her, as you have so far). She needs to get her own life in order asap.

If she weren't in such difficult financial straits, I'd suggest she move out, and live with a load of people to keep costs down if she had to. Your gf needs a room with a view.

(Btw, please do not discount her experiences of racism. At least entertain the possibility they're real. You can't know what she deals with day to day. Ethno-nationalism is thriving in the UK, just as in the rest of Europe.)
posted by nelljie at 3:21 PM on May 9, 2013


the next thing I know she's walking home - 30 kms away from our home without a phone or the address of where we're staying. I follow

Just because she brings the drama doesn't mean you have to pick it up.
posted by shiny blue object at 3:22 PM on May 9, 2013


It sounds like you make a lot of assumptions and she is dramatic. I bet you are both stubborn, too.

You said you didn't get why she was so livid, but you actually do -- because you decided the course of action without consulting her. You said this yourself. What I think you don't understand is why her reaction is so over the top in comparison to what triggered it.

I think you are on to something with how your confrontational styles differ. Your communication styles probably don't work for each other, either. It all sounds really frustrating.
posted by sm1tten at 4:28 PM on May 9, 2013 [2 favorites]


Best answer: Strongly disagree with the "cultural issues are not at play here" crowd. I moved to the UK from a Latin country (not Italy) for a relationship which ended up foundering because of a mix of cultural and personal issues, and whilst it is true that sometimes it's not easy to disentangle the two in order to clearly mark one problem "cultural" or "personal", the cultural aspect does, in my experience, play enough of a role to be, within limits, a worth-while approach to relationship troubles. But it is merely the gate-way: whilst cultural issues might be trouble-making, the solutions are all personal.

Don't know all the details of your GF's situation, but here are things which troubled me, in no particular order and of varying relevance (I'm also far from being the only one with similar feelings, this would pretty much be a consensus from dozens of my co-nationals, other people from my general geographical area and even further afield):

1. The sheer fact of being foreign. There are lots of people who have grown up with a cosmopolitan life-style, as well as easy-going folks who adapt with no issues, but for me and a lot of others the amount of difference isn't always easy. This goes with any country-combination in the world, nothing specific about UK and Italy or others.

2. We have a very "interrupting" conversational model, whilst in the UK turn-taking was much more wide-spread. Interrupting signaled to me interest, engagement, closeness, warmth, turn-taking signaled disengagement, coldness, lack of interest, and I felt like I was boring the other person. Frequently people seemed to me slow as well, because they didn't leap in to finish sentences I was grappling with. Took me years to wrap my head round this one.

3. Transgressions and disagreements. Unless there are issues in the relationship, our "good" disagreements are vocal, in a raised tone of voice, frequently hyperbolic, lots of hand-gestures and other demonstrative stuff. Once all has been said, the aftermath is frequently equally hyperbolic, demonstrative reaffirmations of good stuff etc. Our "bad" disagreements are very like the UK good, but are interpreted not as rational, respectful and caring, but as menacing, contemptuous, patronising, superior and unengaged. In time, I have come to prefer the UK version, or rather a combination of the two tilting Uk-wards, and am therefore now seen in my home country, where I have returned, as a cold fish. Maybe this is why the fall-out and rapprochement in your last update seems a bit extreme even for my "Latin" eyes...

4. Affection is lived out very openly, too, and the more measured tones of my English ex-husband, felt like one long rejection-fest. His self-consciousness also used to drive me up the wall: in his eyes he was thoughtful and considerate and just like an adult should be, in my eyes he was rejecting me, and much more concerned about some sort of internal audience he was seeking his approval from than about enjoying our love. Killed it, in the end.

5. Overall and on average, my co-nationals are much more expansive and expressive, regardless of whether we are happy, sad, bored to tears, or just showing you the way. I had genuine trouble for a long time figuring out the emotion behind what someone was telling me (if they approved, disapproved or were indifferent, if what they were talking about was the most amazing piece of news or a case for sorrow etc).

An assortment of other things, from the seemingly trivial (like not knowing how amenities and public offices work, not knowing where to shop for a lot of things etc) to the momentous (what "friendship" means and how friends relate to each other, how group-integration of newcomers work: where I come from, the group does the heavy lifting, anything else is churlish and unwelcoming, whilst I've been told by a lot of different people that it's the exact opposite in the UK, at least for people of a certain generation: it is respectful to allow the newcomer to set their pace and work with their comfort level) etc.

At the same time, there were other issues which were not cultural differences but issues because I was foreign (and especially a foreigner from my particular part of the world): I was either exotic, a "mother earth" type or a wild, passionate woman, or a scrounger, a mail-order bride (this has been said to my face, mostly "jokingly", more times than I can count). I have been at least once passed for a job because of where I came from etc. This is also why I understand your GF's reaction to chicken-carcass clash: I had a similarly disproportionate reaction to a mundane "don't do this" household issue on the rear end of a period during which I had been accused for having married so I can have an English husband, berated for not knowing x thing every idiot knows, and told point blank to go back where I came from, I had people explain to me how the two note-worthy things about my country were orphanages and Dracula (the latter two at bus stops - bus stops the world over seem to bring out the worst in people) etc.

In hindsight, solutions would have been entirely personal, such as being called out on behaviour which was over the line (that, to me, would have counted as "passionate", that is engaged, personal, intimate), rather than that being signified in a passive-aggressive (to me) manner, AS WELL AS a concomitant increase in demonstrated affection - kind of need to balance the sometimes necessary negative with an affirmation of the positive. Also, some insight on my part along the lines of "When x happens, it is not meant to be disrespectful, quite the contrary, it is supposed to acknowledge your autonomy, or to be an effort for things to develop at your pace etc" would have helped me become a less embattled person in my relationship and just enjoy my (looooong) adjustment period much more.

PS. I hope this doesn't read as UK-bashing: I love it, and have many fond memories of my time there - it's just that easying in hasn't been all that ... easy, that I did experience cultural clashes and that they did take a toll on my relationship at the time.
posted by miorita at 5:13 PM on May 9, 2013 [10 favorites]


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