Help solve a friendship dispute.
May 7, 2013 7:20 PM Subscribe
2 friends attempt to get together once or twice a week and when they do its a really great, fun time. Both are quirky and odd and feel personal connections and common interests are a rare thing.
But.... A is always late, often gets distracted with other plans when executing the original plan, abruptly changes plans or altogether forgets them. B likes to stick to plans and follow through reliably.
B is often frustrated at A for what appears/presents as inconsideration, flakiness or straight up lying.
A is often frustrated at B's inability to be flexible or understanding or appreciating of the 'thought' behind the plans whether or not they actually materialize.
Friend A has untreated adhd (and doesn't want to discuss it) and and Friend B thinks this may be a contributing factor.
Friend A and Friend B both secretly think the other is in the wrong while they try to compromise in order to continue the friendship of 4 years, but the many disagreements are wearing on them. Should A and B just not hang out anymore?
Classic ADD. Friend A should get treatment, and Friend B should be sympathetic that A's flakiness is not entirely within A's control.
posted by Jacqueline at 7:27 PM on May 7, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by Jacqueline at 7:27 PM on May 7, 2013 [2 favorites]
Best answer: Once or twice a week??? I don't see anyone that often unless I live with them. Dial it back.
posted by samthemander at 7:27 PM on May 7, 2013 [19 favorites]
posted by samthemander at 7:27 PM on May 7, 2013 [19 favorites]
Best answer: Friend B should only make plans with A of such a nature that she won't be upset if A flakes. That's the only way to preserve the friendship and really the only thing within A's control.
posted by Salamandrous at 7:37 PM on May 7, 2013 [20 favorites]
posted by Salamandrous at 7:37 PM on May 7, 2013 [20 favorites]
I am sorry, but I know a person EXACTLY like A, I have known her for over 25 years, and she most definitely does not have ADD.
I can tell you from experience as B, the only way forward is to politely assert yourself with A, and then pull back if she jerks you around. She'll become magically less flaky (for a while) if you stop enabling her selfish behavior. Rinse and repeat.
posted by Salamander at 7:52 PM on May 7, 2013 [3 favorites]
I can tell you from experience as B, the only way forward is to politely assert yourself with A, and then pull back if she jerks you around. She'll become magically less flaky (for a while) if you stop enabling her selfish behavior. Rinse and repeat.
posted by Salamander at 7:52 PM on May 7, 2013 [3 favorites]
I agree with Salamandrous, Friend B should only make plans with A of such a nature that she won't be upset if A flakes. I would refuse all other types of plans with A and I would be honest with why if she asked me to do something that didn't fit within my parameters.
posted by shoesietart at 7:52 PM on May 7, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by shoesietart at 7:52 PM on May 7, 2013 [1 favorite]
Best answer: Honestly why would you continue to keep hanging out that often with someone with whom you have "many disagreements"? I'm not saying it has to be all or nothing, and I'm not sure what "compromise" looks like here, or what types of things these friends do together, but why would anyone put themselves in that position of being aggravated or whatever over and over again every week?
Personally, I am more of a "plan" than "fly by the seat of yonder pants" type of person, but the only time I ever got to a point where it bothered me enough to consider ending a friendship, there was a lot more going on than punctuality and flexibility. Internally, and with the friendship.
posted by sm1tten at 7:53 PM on May 7, 2013 [1 favorite]
Personally, I am more of a "plan" than "fly by the seat of yonder pants" type of person, but the only time I ever got to a point where it bothered me enough to consider ending a friendship, there was a lot more going on than punctuality and flexibility. Internally, and with the friendship.
posted by sm1tten at 7:53 PM on May 7, 2013 [1 favorite]
To slightly amend Salamandrous's great point, Friend B needs to always have a backup plan if Friend A flakes, whether that's "Do the thing we were going to do anyway, by myself" or "Do some other fun thing I wanted to do."
(This is also good advice for first dates -- have a backup plan, so if the other person flakes, you don't feel like you just got pre-dumped.)
posted by Etrigan at 7:56 PM on May 7, 2013 [2 favorites]
(This is also good advice for first dates -- have a backup plan, so if the other person flakes, you don't feel like you just got pre-dumped.)
posted by Etrigan at 7:56 PM on May 7, 2013 [2 favorites]
Best answer: Each friend should grow up a bit and realise that other people often don't run to the same patterns as themselves, and that making this realisation will enable themselves to have better friendships in general. It's not a hard thing to do. Some people are more flaky than others. Some people are more rigid than others. None of this means that these people can't be friends, but rather that each should understand the context of these commitments to the other.
posted by pompomtom at 8:08 PM on May 7, 2013 [4 favorites]
posted by pompomtom at 8:08 PM on May 7, 2013 [4 favorites]
Best answer: Friend A has untreated adhd (and doesn't want to discuss it) and and Friend B thinks this may be a contributing factor. Friend A and Friend B both secretly think the other is in the wrong...
WTF does it matter who's "in the wrong" when there is no umpire?
This is a well established dance, and it won't change unless the people concerned take steps to modify their own behavior. It's not B's job to prescribe treatment for A's ADHD, and it's not A's job to help B cope better with being stood up.
If B has had four years to work out that A is likely to flake, why is B still expecting that this will change? B has no control at all over A's flakiness, so why waste emotional energy getting irritated by it? Accept it for what it it is, plan around it and move on.
If A has had four years to work out that B is inflexible, why is A still expecting that this will change? A has no control at all over B's lack of understanding, so why waste emotional energy getting irritated by it? Accept it for what it is, allow for it and move on.
posted by flabdablet at 8:25 PM on May 7, 2013 [9 favorites]
WTF does it matter who's "in the wrong" when there is no umpire?
This is a well established dance, and it won't change unless the people concerned take steps to modify their own behavior. It's not B's job to prescribe treatment for A's ADHD, and it's not A's job to help B cope better with being stood up.
If B has had four years to work out that A is likely to flake, why is B still expecting that this will change? B has no control at all over A's flakiness, so why waste emotional energy getting irritated by it? Accept it for what it it is, plan around it and move on.
If A has had four years to work out that B is inflexible, why is A still expecting that this will change? A has no control at all over B's lack of understanding, so why waste emotional energy getting irritated by it? Accept it for what it is, allow for it and move on.
posted by flabdablet at 8:25 PM on May 7, 2013 [9 favorites]
Friend A has untreated adhd (and doesn't want to discuss it) and and Friend B thinks this may be a contributing factor.
My husband has self-described "moderate" ADHD, he is "untreated" but self-manages his behavior and comes of as "mild to moderate" for me with his behavior.
He does not flake. He does not forget important things. Sure he may forget to take the trash out, but hell, everyone does that. My husband (and I) get kind of offended when people blame bad, forgetful behavior on ADHD.
Can ADHD or ADD case flakiness, forgetfulness, etc. OF COURSE! However it has to be pretty severe for them to "forget" that you made plans. Either way, it doesn't sound like they are being a good friend. Even if they do have severe ADHD and really did forget, they would try to make it up if they were a good friend.
Simply, your friend is not being a good friend. Let them make plans next time. You shouldn't have to hold the friendship together. If you stop making plans see how long it takes them to contact you. That will give you a true answer on your friendship.
posted by Crystalinne at 11:09 PM on May 7, 2013 [1 favorite]
My husband has self-described "moderate" ADHD, he is "untreated" but self-manages his behavior and comes of as "mild to moderate" for me with his behavior.
He does not flake. He does not forget important things. Sure he may forget to take the trash out, but hell, everyone does that. My husband (and I) get kind of offended when people blame bad, forgetful behavior on ADHD.
Can ADHD or ADD case flakiness, forgetfulness, etc. OF COURSE! However it has to be pretty severe for them to "forget" that you made plans. Either way, it doesn't sound like they are being a good friend. Even if they do have severe ADHD and really did forget, they would try to make it up if they were a good friend.
Simply, your friend is not being a good friend. Let them make plans next time. You shouldn't have to hold the friendship together. If you stop making plans see how long it takes them to contact you. That will give you a true answer on your friendship.
posted by Crystalinne at 11:09 PM on May 7, 2013 [1 favorite]
I'm an A, and one of my best friends is a B. Over the years, not to meet each other's expectations, specifically, B's completely chilled out, and I've stopped being late for things (by planning and printing out, yes, printing, unfamiliar routes well in advance, and giving myself double the time my internal clock predicts I should need, which means I now often show up earlier than B!).
I still sometimes triple book myself though, even with important events. (Because I don't easily connect that Wednesday also means December 6th which also means 4 days from today, and it is also two weeks after I committed some day or other [the 6th] to C. And I am working on consistently using the same planning tool.) But B forgives me because she knows the crap out of me, and I think because I make a pretty good chili. Also, I imagine she accounts for my scheduling mishaps months in advance.
posted by nelljie at 11:43 PM on May 7, 2013 [4 favorites]
I still sometimes triple book myself though, even with important events. (Because I don't easily connect that Wednesday also means December 6th which also means 4 days from today, and it is also two weeks after I committed some day or other [the 6th] to C. And I am working on consistently using the same planning tool.) But B forgives me because she knows the crap out of me, and I think because I make a pretty good chili. Also, I imagine she accounts for my scheduling mishaps months in advance.
posted by nelljie at 11:43 PM on May 7, 2013 [4 favorites]
Best answer: I'd say, based on my own experience, that A is probably not that into B. Or just does not need/want so much face time. Meeting someone once or twice a week is a lot, especially if you have a job.
A might subconsciously resent being tied to the plans they made with B and look for other ways to spend their time, hence the flakiness.
Personally, I'd take a break from the friendship and re-evaluate in a few months.
Having been friends with a few As, I can now better appreciate the people in my life who value my friendship as much as I value theirs. That's not to say there is anything wrong in wanting less time together but a situation where one side wants more contact than the other can be difficult to navigate. This is especially true for people who really click - the expectations can be much higher then.
Good luck, non-flakes are out there.
posted by M. at 12:03 AM on May 8, 2013 [1 favorite]
A might subconsciously resent being tied to the plans they made with B and look for other ways to spend their time, hence the flakiness.
Personally, I'd take a break from the friendship and re-evaluate in a few months.
Having been friends with a few As, I can now better appreciate the people in my life who value my friendship as much as I value theirs. That's not to say there is anything wrong in wanting less time together but a situation where one side wants more contact than the other can be difficult to navigate. This is especially true for people who really click - the expectations can be much higher then.
Good luck, non-flakes are out there.
posted by M. at 12:03 AM on May 8, 2013 [1 favorite]
Best answer: While some people like A might --- MIGHT --- have ADD or just be poor planners, more often they're rude and/or it's a power thing. Maybe they're not doing it consciously, but it's a way for A to say 'my time is more important than yours'.
What can B do? I assume B has already spoken to A about this, so perhaps B should tell A that from now on, they'll only wait 10 minutes and then either go do whatever was planned or simply leave, and DO IT. Don't just threaten to stop waiting, because A WILL call any bluffs: give a hard and fast deadline. And I know 10 minutes doesn't sound like much, but A is the kind of person who, if you give then an inch they'll take a mile.
And if A gets bent out of shape by this ('you didn't wait for me!') or their tender little feelings are hurt, well, that's too danged bad, isn't it? B can explain to A that that is EXACTLY how B has been feeling, every single time A has pulled this on B.
posted by easily confused at 2:53 AM on May 8, 2013 [4 favorites]
What can B do? I assume B has already spoken to A about this, so perhaps B should tell A that from now on, they'll only wait 10 minutes and then either go do whatever was planned or simply leave, and DO IT. Don't just threaten to stop waiting, because A WILL call any bluffs: give a hard and fast deadline. And I know 10 minutes doesn't sound like much, but A is the kind of person who, if you give then an inch they'll take a mile.
And if A gets bent out of shape by this ('you didn't wait for me!') or their tender little feelings are hurt, well, that's too danged bad, isn't it? B can explain to A that that is EXACTLY how B has been feeling, every single time A has pulled this on B.
posted by easily confused at 2:53 AM on May 8, 2013 [4 favorites]
Best answer: I am an A, and while I have deep sympathy for B, dealing with scheduling and remembering two unique extra hangout events per week would be, tbh, kind of a nightmare for me. What might work would be one fixed, traditional weekly hanging-out event that always happens same day, same time, same place, so it becomes an easy-to-remember scheduling reflex rather than something that drains extra planning energy every.single.time. Bonus points if it's at an odd hour where I'd be very unlikely to ever have other obligations-- like early morning diner breakfast every Sunday, midnight Rocky Horror on Fridays, whatever. Maximum week-to-week consistency is key.
posted by Bardolph at 3:35 AM on May 8, 2013 [3 favorites]
posted by Bardolph at 3:35 AM on May 8, 2013 [3 favorites]
Double down on please-be-punctual for B's sanity, but let plans vary for A's desire to be creative. If the point is being together, what good is being late; and what else do you really need other than being together?
posted by seanmpuckett at 3:35 AM on May 8, 2013
posted by seanmpuckett at 3:35 AM on May 8, 2013
Stop aiming to hang out twice a week. That is an extremely high level of contact and possibly part of the problem. If plans are so frequent and constant I can totally see how it would be a lot easier to justify flaking or punking out on plans. Same as if you were baking a ten batches of cookies. There are so many cookies it is a lot easier to end up snacking on more cookies than you would have if you were only making two batches of cookies. Because there are so many you can sacrifice more of them while still keeping a high over all count. That doesn't make A in the right, but I can definitely see where the frequency could be contributing. Aim for once a week or even once every two weeks. Go for quality hangouts instead of quantity.
Also, I'm guessing from the sheer number of hangouts that A and B are pretty young. Early 20s I'd guess, probably students. The only time I was ever able to devote that much time to a friend was when I was in university and before I moved in to my career. It has been my experience that the older you get the less able you are to spend such an intense amount of time with friends. Jobs, family, significant others.... these are all things that claim a lot of time and something has to give. The amount of time you can spend with friends decreases, as does the amount of time you can devote to hobbies, etc. The happiest ones are the people that learn to maximize the smaller chunks of time they have for the different things in their life. The busier you get and the more responsibilites you have, the more important it becomes to make the time you do have to spend with your friends quality time. The shift from constant hangouts to less frequent hangouts can be pretty hard, especially if one friend has made the transition (due to a job taking more of their time, or getting in to a serious relationship) and the other friend hasn't yet. There is often a feeling of being left behind or feeling like they aren't important to their friend anymore until they too make the transition and learn that, no, really, there just isn't enough time in the day. If you can establish NOW that your friendship is based upon less frequent but higher quality hangouts you will probably have a much easier time of it when that happens.
One final point - considering ending the friendship over this seems pretty extreme and dramatic.
posted by PuppetMcSockerson at 4:42 AM on May 8, 2013 [2 favorites]
Also, I'm guessing from the sheer number of hangouts that A and B are pretty young. Early 20s I'd guess, probably students. The only time I was ever able to devote that much time to a friend was when I was in university and before I moved in to my career. It has been my experience that the older you get the less able you are to spend such an intense amount of time with friends. Jobs, family, significant others.... these are all things that claim a lot of time and something has to give. The amount of time you can spend with friends decreases, as does the amount of time you can devote to hobbies, etc. The happiest ones are the people that learn to maximize the smaller chunks of time they have for the different things in their life. The busier you get and the more responsibilites you have, the more important it becomes to make the time you do have to spend with your friends quality time. The shift from constant hangouts to less frequent hangouts can be pretty hard, especially if one friend has made the transition (due to a job taking more of their time, or getting in to a serious relationship) and the other friend hasn't yet. There is often a feeling of being left behind or feeling like they aren't important to their friend anymore until they too make the transition and learn that, no, really, there just isn't enough time in the day. If you can establish NOW that your friendship is based upon less frequent but higher quality hangouts you will probably have a much easier time of it when that happens.
One final point - considering ending the friendship over this seems pretty extreme and dramatic.
posted by PuppetMcSockerson at 4:42 AM on May 8, 2013 [2 favorites]
B should tell A that the meet-up time is X minutes before the actual real meet-up time (when B will arrive). X = the average time that A is late. In other words, B should turn up "late" as well (but in their mind, they're turning up at the correct time, so they're not "late").
posted by EndsOfInvention at 5:41 AM on May 8, 2013
posted by EndsOfInvention at 5:41 AM on May 8, 2013
Best answer: I have flakey friends,and I have a pretty big stick up my butt. I had to get some strategies to keep my sanity. Here's how I manage my flake friends:
1. I have them meet me at my house. That way, I'm not sitting at a table alone playing Ruzzle and fuming.
2. I call to confirm close to the time we're expecting to get together. "Are we still on for tonight?" This gives an out to the flake and makes me feel like I have some control of the situation.
3. I don't do big, important things with flakes. I don't go on vacation with them, I don't get Springsteen tickets with them, I don't even arrange to go to movies with them. If it's important to me, the flake is not invited.
4. I try to hang loose about the plans. Flakes like to change it up, "Can I bring Cynthia?" "Can we do Greek instead of Italian?" "Do you mind if we stop by Lisa's house to pick up my sweater?" I block out enough time to deal with the meandering and the mind changing and the dithering.
5. Have a high protein snack on hand. For some reason flakes always screw up about meal times and I have low blood sugar. I get grumpy if I'm hungry, so I have a nibble of cheese to tide me over while we make a pit stop to return a comforter or whateverthefuck stupid thing the flake feels the need to do, I'm covered.
6. Don't go to places where reservations are required or that have very specific timeframes involved. I panic if I think I'm keeping someone waiting, even if it's a dinner reservation. If I have to be at a place at a specific time, trust me, I'm not meeting up with a flake before that for a quick drink.
Flakes are fun and they mean no harm. They live on a different plane than the rest of us. But they must be managed to be enjoyed.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 5:54 AM on May 8, 2013 [34 favorites]
1. I have them meet me at my house. That way, I'm not sitting at a table alone playing Ruzzle and fuming.
2. I call to confirm close to the time we're expecting to get together. "Are we still on for tonight?" This gives an out to the flake and makes me feel like I have some control of the situation.
3. I don't do big, important things with flakes. I don't go on vacation with them, I don't get Springsteen tickets with them, I don't even arrange to go to movies with them. If it's important to me, the flake is not invited.
4. I try to hang loose about the plans. Flakes like to change it up, "Can I bring Cynthia?" "Can we do Greek instead of Italian?" "Do you mind if we stop by Lisa's house to pick up my sweater?" I block out enough time to deal with the meandering and the mind changing and the dithering.
5. Have a high protein snack on hand. For some reason flakes always screw up about meal times and I have low blood sugar. I get grumpy if I'm hungry, so I have a nibble of cheese to tide me over while we make a pit stop to return a comforter or whateverthefuck stupid thing the flake feels the need to do, I'm covered.
6. Don't go to places where reservations are required or that have very specific timeframes involved. I panic if I think I'm keeping someone waiting, even if it's a dinner reservation. If I have to be at a place at a specific time, trust me, I'm not meeting up with a flake before that for a quick drink.
Flakes are fun and they mean no harm. They live on a different plane than the rest of us. But they must be managed to be enjoyed.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 5:54 AM on May 8, 2013 [34 favorites]
EndsOfInvention's idea to tell A an earlier time than B (A thinks the event's time is 6:30, but B knows its actually 7) sounds good, but it won't work for specific events (A knows the movie starts at 7, so why be there earlier?!?) and I can guarentee you it won't work forever.... and the minute A finds out about this clock-resetting? From then on, A will automatically ASSUME B is lying and show up even later.
(How do I know this? Let me tell you about my sister A.....)
posted by easily confused at 6:20 AM on May 8, 2013 [2 favorites]
(How do I know this? Let me tell you about my sister A.....)
posted by easily confused at 6:20 AM on May 8, 2013 [2 favorites]
They're sick of each other and they don't particularly like each other much anymore. They should either hang out less frequently; or not at all.
posted by J. Wilson at 6:22 AM on May 8, 2013
posted by J. Wilson at 6:22 AM on May 8, 2013
A and B are letters of the alphabet, not people. The story of their relationship is barely at the depth of an astrological sun sign profile, thus our conclusions about them depend on how we fill in the blank parts and create real people by projection. "A is probably not that into B." "A has ADHD." "A is rude and/or it's a power thing." All could have some truth to them. Or not.
Let me project some of my own: B is very lonely and A is the only meaningful relationship in his life. B secretly feels unworthy of A's attention and when A is late, knows that A is having trouble pulling himself away from something more interesting, and is only showing up at all out of guilt. B hates being reminded of this feeling of unworthiness which he tries to keep from his consciousness but A's lateness is often the occasion of feeling it and hence B feels angry at A for making him feel needy. B then represses his anger which could only drive A away, but A can intuit it anyway.
Or: Freedom is very important to A. A hates being tied down, resents having to be somewhere at a fixed time. A enjoys spending time with B but can't help feeling a bit rebellious over the scheduling aspect because it brings out a trapped feeling he had as a kid when he had to participate in routines foisted upon him by adults. He is unaware of this dynamic and tries to accommodate B's needs but his need not to feel trapped intervenes to sabotage his best attempts.
The solution to their conflict would require that they both give up their emotion-backed demands and empathize with the other. B needs to not take A's behavior personally but understand why he must behave the way he does. A, in turn, needs to realize that B is insecure and that the trapped feeling this brings out in isn't really appropriate to the situation but an historical artifact of his past. Maybe they could talk this out together--help each other grow. Or maybe it would feel too exposing or shameful. Maybe they should just become a bit more self-aware and not act out their problems on the other.
posted by Obscure Reference at 6:52 AM on May 8, 2013 [5 favorites]
Let me project some of my own: B is very lonely and A is the only meaningful relationship in his life. B secretly feels unworthy of A's attention and when A is late, knows that A is having trouble pulling himself away from something more interesting, and is only showing up at all out of guilt. B hates being reminded of this feeling of unworthiness which he tries to keep from his consciousness but A's lateness is often the occasion of feeling it and hence B feels angry at A for making him feel needy. B then represses his anger which could only drive A away, but A can intuit it anyway.
Or: Freedom is very important to A. A hates being tied down, resents having to be somewhere at a fixed time. A enjoys spending time with B but can't help feeling a bit rebellious over the scheduling aspect because it brings out a trapped feeling he had as a kid when he had to participate in routines foisted upon him by adults. He is unaware of this dynamic and tries to accommodate B's needs but his need not to feel trapped intervenes to sabotage his best attempts.
The solution to their conflict would require that they both give up their emotion-backed demands and empathize with the other. B needs to not take A's behavior personally but understand why he must behave the way he does. A, in turn, needs to realize that B is insecure and that the trapped feeling this brings out in isn't really appropriate to the situation but an historical artifact of his past. Maybe they could talk this out together--help each other grow. Or maybe it would feel too exposing or shameful. Maybe they should just become a bit more self-aware and not act out their problems on the other.
posted by Obscure Reference at 6:52 AM on May 8, 2013 [5 favorites]
As a B-type, I've faced the situation many times, though the A's in my life have never been as extreme as the A you describe. I agree with the people who suggest you play defensively, and I've learned to do that. But there is still the issue of fairness. The person who plays by a set of rules often feels cheated, in a way, by the person who doesn't. When all else fails and I want to preserve the relationship, I ask myself how I can become more selfish vis-a-vis the other person. Does he prefer to meet on Tuesday? Then if Wednesday is better for me, I lobby for Wednesday. Does he like a coffee shop near him? Then I insist on meeting at a coffee shop near me. People may accuse me of being petty or immoral, and so I may be, but meeting selfishness with selfishness restores the power balance, keeps me from feeling cheated, and allows me to stay in some relationships that I'd otherwise want to bail out of.
posted by markcmyers at 7:13 AM on May 8, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by markcmyers at 7:13 AM on May 8, 2013 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: FWIW, A is the one who enthusiastically makes ALL of the plans, often wanting to make plans every 2 or 3 days and B is the one who has firmly cut it back to once (sometimes twice) a week and who at times feels that is even too much. It doesn't make sense to B that A will essentially harass B to make frequent plans that A has no intention of keeping.
posted by tenaciousmoon at 7:17 AM on May 8, 2013
posted by tenaciousmoon at 7:17 AM on May 8, 2013
FWIW, A is the one who enthusiastically makes ALL of the plans, often wanting to make plans every 2 or 3 days and B is the one who has firmly cut it back to once (sometimes twice) a week and who at times feels that is even too much. It doesn't make sense to B that A will essentially harass B to make frequent plans that A has no intention of keeping.
At the heart of flakiness is a total lack of understanding of time. It's not a concrete concept for flakes. In the world of flakes, a day is 36 hours long. This is why flakes are always running late, missing appointments and infurriating their friends by asking them to help them run errands when the friends expected to be drinking wine and eating Tapas.
One of my best friends is like this. She thinks it will take 12 minutes to drive to the movies. Sure, if the lights are all green and there's no traffic. Also, she will talk on the phone, put on mascara and drive with her knees (I promise, it's happened.) I have never seen previews with her and I've missed the first few minutes of a movie more times than I care to think about. Often, if there are two extra minutes, she'll want to run in and grab some chlorine for the pool. She thinks she's being efficient, I feel neglected. It's maddening.
But you make your peace with it. So I don't see Citizen Kane with Sharon. I know what the deal is, and I can live with it. Sometimes, I arrange to get dinner at the same place the movie is, and I'll buy the tickets beforehand. I know what I'm dealing with.
The point is, A really does want to be with you and see you and all of that, she just also wants to shop for a dress for a party, return a pair of shoes, talk to her cousin about the family reunion, FedEx something for work and highlight her hair. In her world, she has plenty of time for this, in reality, something's got to give.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 8:18 AM on May 8, 2013 [4 favorites]
At the heart of flakiness is a total lack of understanding of time. It's not a concrete concept for flakes. In the world of flakes, a day is 36 hours long. This is why flakes are always running late, missing appointments and infurriating their friends by asking them to help them run errands when the friends expected to be drinking wine and eating Tapas.
One of my best friends is like this. She thinks it will take 12 minutes to drive to the movies. Sure, if the lights are all green and there's no traffic. Also, she will talk on the phone, put on mascara and drive with her knees (I promise, it's happened.) I have never seen previews with her and I've missed the first few minutes of a movie more times than I care to think about. Often, if there are two extra minutes, she'll want to run in and grab some chlorine for the pool. She thinks she's being efficient, I feel neglected. It's maddening.
But you make your peace with it. So I don't see Citizen Kane with Sharon. I know what the deal is, and I can live with it. Sometimes, I arrange to get dinner at the same place the movie is, and I'll buy the tickets beforehand. I know what I'm dealing with.
The point is, A really does want to be with you and see you and all of that, she just also wants to shop for a dress for a party, return a pair of shoes, talk to her cousin about the family reunion, FedEx something for work and highlight her hair. In her world, she has plenty of time for this, in reality, something's got to give.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 8:18 AM on May 8, 2013 [4 favorites]
more often they're rude and/or it's a power thing. Maybe they're not doing it consciously, but it's a way for A to say 'my time is more important than yours'.
Wow. Just really, really not true (well, of course the behaviour amounts to rudeness, but it is not intentional). I have seen how efficient people glide from hour to hour. It is not so easy for everyone. If only you knew how much it actually costs this A to be on time, in terms of stress and mental effort. Like Bardolph suggested, it's only a certain amount of routinization that allows me to get things done in my own life. If I had to approach everything the way I do events that involve other people, I'd never get anything done, that's how much of a drain it is on my resources.
Ruthless Bunny: I think my B uses your playbook ;)
posted by nelljie at 8:38 AM on May 8, 2013 [5 favorites]
Wow. Just really, really not true (well, of course the behaviour amounts to rudeness, but it is not intentional). I have seen how efficient people glide from hour to hour. It is not so easy for everyone. If only you knew how much it actually costs this A to be on time, in terms of stress and mental effort. Like Bardolph suggested, it's only a certain amount of routinization that allows me to get things done in my own life. If I had to approach everything the way I do events that involve other people, I'd never get anything done, that's how much of a drain it is on my resources.
Ruthless Bunny: I think my B uses your playbook ;)
posted by nelljie at 8:38 AM on May 8, 2013 [5 favorites]
tenaciousmoon, it appears that you are not only being dominated by A's passive-aggression (that's what habitual lateness is, whatever else it is), but also A's active-aggression. Harasses you? Gets you to meet more often than you want to? It's time for you to learn pushback. Assertiveness training can work.
posted by markcmyers at 8:51 AM on May 8, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by markcmyers at 8:51 AM on May 8, 2013 [1 favorite]
passive-aggression (that's what habitual lateness is, whatever else it is)
Interesting theory. I'm not aware of having held any deep resentment towards my hairdresser, bank manager, or Continental Airlines lo these many years, but I guess it's possible.
posted by nelljie at 9:45 AM on May 8, 2013 [3 favorites]
Interesting theory. I'm not aware of having held any deep resentment towards my hairdresser, bank manager, or Continental Airlines lo these many years, but I guess it's possible.
posted by nelljie at 9:45 AM on May 8, 2013 [3 favorites]
No, A and B should keep hanging out (if B wants to). ADD can explain a lot of the above. It's no use holding people to the standards of "if I did this for you it would mean I really cared, why can't you do it for me." To each, according to their ability, or whatever. Look at the rest of A's life. If A is generally scattered and late, then it's probably not a power play. It's probably just their pace.
I second the idea of managing the plans. For meeting up, why not agree to meet them where their last plans leave off/their house? At least they will be at a specific location and you will know where that is. For making plans, maybe you can take turns? (If that's not too kindergarteny of a principle). I have a friend who always executes these crazy daylong hangout plans that leave me exhausted but can also be very entertaining. So half the time, we do whatever insane plan she has in mind which is usually exciting but outside my comfort zone, and half the time, we do my quiet thing. It works out quite well. Can you compromise on the flaking vs. nonflaking on specific activities?
posted by kettleoffish at 10:55 AM on May 8, 2013
I second the idea of managing the plans. For meeting up, why not agree to meet them where their last plans leave off/their house? At least they will be at a specific location and you will know where that is. For making plans, maybe you can take turns? (If that's not too kindergarteny of a principle). I have a friend who always executes these crazy daylong hangout plans that leave me exhausted but can also be very entertaining. So half the time, we do whatever insane plan she has in mind which is usually exciting but outside my comfort zone, and half the time, we do my quiet thing. It works out quite well. Can you compromise on the flaking vs. nonflaking on specific activities?
posted by kettleoffish at 10:55 AM on May 8, 2013
I'm not aware of having held any deep resentment towards my hairdresser, bank manager, or Continental Airlines lo these many years....
Perhaps I go too far in labeling all habitual tardiness as passive-aggressive. But even in these cases, the organizations are choosing to impose external costs on their customers—wasted time—in order to serve their own needs. Deep resentment may not be appropriate, but a certain level of dissatisfaction is, I think. Organizations that respect their customers enough to be consistently on-time—think Fedex, Domino's, and Amazon—often out-compete those that are more casual about promptness.
posted by markcmyers at 12:15 PM on May 8, 2013 [1 favorite]
Perhaps I go too far in labeling all habitual tardiness as passive-aggressive. But even in these cases, the organizations are choosing to impose external costs on their customers—wasted time—in order to serve their own needs. Deep resentment may not be appropriate, but a certain level of dissatisfaction is, I think. Organizations that respect their customers enough to be consistently on-time—think Fedex, Domino's, and Amazon—often out-compete those that are more casual about promptness.
posted by markcmyers at 12:15 PM on May 8, 2013 [1 favorite]
Can another person be added to the hangout time because then if "A" doesn't show up, at least "C" will be there? Otherwise "B" will have to be prepared to see the movie alone or enjoy a nice meal by her/himself if "A" flakes out. I think that "A" sincerely wants to hang out, but then gets overbooked or too busy and doesn't know what to do. (I hope so at least. I had a friend like A who would always make a bunch of plans and then except the 'best offer'. She would then flake on me. Otherwise, if no one was available, then she would call.)
posted by lawgirl at 4:03 PM on May 8, 2013
posted by lawgirl at 4:03 PM on May 8, 2013
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posted by bfranklin at 7:24 PM on May 7, 2013 [6 favorites]