PMS makes her transgress
May 2, 2013 9:19 AM Subscribe
Is my wife's PMS a fair reason to be as cruel to me as she pleases?
I'm interested in how people here, both men and women, view this issue. I struggle with trying to accept that it's OK for my wife to be rude, mean, disrespectful, harsh, and otherwise cruel to me when she has PMS.
The rational, analytical, and fair-minded side of me wants to push back and say "Now wait a minute, do you realize how unjustifiably abusive you are being?".
But another rational side to me knows that she's in a hormonally-altered state and I should just stay clear, ignore it, and it will pass.
I think one reason I struggle with it is not only because the behavior feels so uncivilized and unfair but also because there's never an apology after the state passes or even much acknowledgement that PMS is an ordeal not only for her but for me too. Never.
I find it hard to imagine that no matter the reason, if I were acting like an ogre toward someone who didn't deserve it, I wouldn't eventually apologize to them or at least acknowledge in some way that it must have been unpleasant for them.
How do other guys handle this? Or is my wife's PMS perhaps extreme and not typical?
I'm interested in how people here, both men and women, view this issue. I struggle with trying to accept that it's OK for my wife to be rude, mean, disrespectful, harsh, and otherwise cruel to me when she has PMS.
The rational, analytical, and fair-minded side of me wants to push back and say "Now wait a minute, do you realize how unjustifiably abusive you are being?".
But another rational side to me knows that she's in a hormonally-altered state and I should just stay clear, ignore it, and it will pass.
I think one reason I struggle with it is not only because the behavior feels so uncivilized and unfair but also because there's never an apology after the state passes or even much acknowledgement that PMS is an ordeal not only for her but for me too. Never.
I find it hard to imagine that no matter the reason, if I were acting like an ogre toward someone who didn't deserve it, I wouldn't eventually apologize to them or at least acknowledge in some way that it must have been unpleasant for them.
How do other guys handle this? Or is my wife's PMS perhaps extreme and not typical?
I think it would be easier to answer this question if we had some examples of the behavior in question.
If "acting like an ogre" is expecting you to do housework, then yes, that is perfectly fair and you shouldn't NEED a PMS-ing woman nagging you to do your share of the chores.
If "acting like an ogre" is verbal abuse, emotional abuse, temper tantrums, name-calling, throwing things, physical outbursts, etc, NO that's absolutely not acceptable.
If she is honestly acting out in the latter way because of hormones during PMS, and both of you can directly make the connection on that, and she feels like her behavior is out of control, she needs to see a doctor. Because that's not typical.
But again it's really hard to assess the situation without any kind of description of what is actually happening.
posted by Sara C. at 9:26 AM on May 2, 2013 [35 favorites]
If "acting like an ogre" is expecting you to do housework, then yes, that is perfectly fair and you shouldn't NEED a PMS-ing woman nagging you to do your share of the chores.
If "acting like an ogre" is verbal abuse, emotional abuse, temper tantrums, name-calling, throwing things, physical outbursts, etc, NO that's absolutely not acceptable.
If she is honestly acting out in the latter way because of hormones during PMS, and both of you can directly make the connection on that, and she feels like her behavior is out of control, she needs to see a doctor. Because that's not typical.
But again it's really hard to assess the situation without any kind of description of what is actually happening.
posted by Sara C. at 9:26 AM on May 2, 2013 [35 favorites]
NO! Hell NO!
PMS is a very real thing, but it's no reason to get a pass for this kind of behavior.
If your wife's PMS is this bad, does it affect her in the workplace (I can't see this kind of behavior playing in an office, I don't care how fast you type.) Does she do this to her friends? Does she do it to the kids?
My Mom had hormonal balances when I was a kid and a LOT of her snippiness and meanness and yelling was aimed at me. The worst part was if you called her on it, she would break down in tears because we were picking on her. (There were other issues, but wacky hormones didn't help anything.)
If your wife won't address this with her doctor, that should also tell you something.
When you bring it up to her after the PMS period has ended, what does she say? Is she sorry, or does she blow it off as no big deal?
I suspect that she saves up all of her frustration and dumps on you, because you won't fight back, and it's NOT OK.
Feel free to call her on her bullshit any time of the month. Here's a phrase, "If you can't speak to me civilly then I'm leaving." Then do it. Perhaps you ought to do it perminantly.
No one has to take verbal abuse from someone they love at ANY time of the month.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 9:27 AM on May 2, 2013 [12 favorites]
PMS is a very real thing, but it's no reason to get a pass for this kind of behavior.
If your wife's PMS is this bad, does it affect her in the workplace (I can't see this kind of behavior playing in an office, I don't care how fast you type.) Does she do this to her friends? Does she do it to the kids?
My Mom had hormonal balances when I was a kid and a LOT of her snippiness and meanness and yelling was aimed at me. The worst part was if you called her on it, she would break down in tears because we were picking on her. (There were other issues, but wacky hormones didn't help anything.)
If your wife won't address this with her doctor, that should also tell you something.
When you bring it up to her after the PMS period has ended, what does she say? Is she sorry, or does she blow it off as no big deal?
I suspect that she saves up all of her frustration and dumps on you, because you won't fight back, and it's NOT OK.
Feel free to call her on her bullshit any time of the month. Here's a phrase, "If you can't speak to me civilly then I'm leaving." Then do it. Perhaps you ought to do it perminantly.
No one has to take verbal abuse from someone they love at ANY time of the month.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 9:27 AM on May 2, 2013 [12 favorites]
it's OK for my wife to be rude, mean, disrespectful, harsh, and otherwise cruel to me when she has PMS.
No. Never. Not even if she apologizes.
Your wife needs to see a doctor. Beyond the spectrum of normal PMS are disorders similar to depression, or psychosis. If she's that irrational because of hormones, she is potentially a danger to herself and others.
But I have to ask: is she only that way to you, or is she also that way to grocery cashiers and coworkers and random strangers on the street? Has she ever been fired or had legal trouble as a result of her behavior? If not, and it's just you...I would recommend therapy, pursuing local assistance for domestic abuse, and possibly a conversation with a lawyer.
posted by Lyn Never at 9:27 AM on May 2, 2013 [5 favorites]
No. Never. Not even if she apologizes.
Your wife needs to see a doctor. Beyond the spectrum of normal PMS are disorders similar to depression, or psychosis. If she's that irrational because of hormones, she is potentially a danger to herself and others.
But I have to ask: is she only that way to you, or is she also that way to grocery cashiers and coworkers and random strangers on the street? Has she ever been fired or had legal trouble as a result of her behavior? If not, and it's just you...I would recommend therapy, pursuing local assistance for domestic abuse, and possibly a conversation with a lawyer.
posted by Lyn Never at 9:27 AM on May 2, 2013 [5 favorites]
No, it is not acceptable. I don't know exactly what your wife's PMS is like, but mostly I think the "steer clear fellas, time of the month!" trope is sexist and insulting to women regardless of the gender of the person saying it. (I'm not saying you're being insulting/sexist here, just that's how I see that trope and that's part of why I think it's invalid).
There is no excuse for your wife to be abusive, mean, or disrespectful to you. "Harsh" sort of carries a different meaning to me, like maybe if she's not feeling well but is abrupt, that might be something you should let slide for a bit (in any case, not just PMS), but abusive, mean, disrespectful definitely not.
You need to talk to her about her behavior and let her know it bothers you. Do not just "steer clear, " you deserve better and PMS is not an excuse to treat anyone badly, let alone your SO.
posted by sweetkid at 9:28 AM on May 2, 2013 [1 favorite]
There is no excuse for your wife to be abusive, mean, or disrespectful to you. "Harsh" sort of carries a different meaning to me, like maybe if she's not feeling well but is abrupt, that might be something you should let slide for a bit (in any case, not just PMS), but abusive, mean, disrespectful definitely not.
You need to talk to her about her behavior and let her know it bothers you. Do not just "steer clear, " you deserve better and PMS is not an excuse to treat anyone badly, let alone your SO.
posted by sweetkid at 9:28 AM on May 2, 2013 [1 favorite]
I think it would be easier to answer this question if we had some examples of the behavior in question.
Yeah, I've become pretty wary of jumping on the abuse bandwagon on Metafilter without specific examples. Most askers are unreliable narrators.
So, Dansaman, what exactly is she doing? What's your marriage like the rest of the month?
posted by ablazingsaddle at 9:29 AM on May 2, 2013 [7 favorites]
Yeah, I've become pretty wary of jumping on the abuse bandwagon on Metafilter without specific examples. Most askers are unreliable narrators.
So, Dansaman, what exactly is she doing? What's your marriage like the rest of the month?
posted by ablazingsaddle at 9:29 AM on May 2, 2013 [7 favorites]
Response by poster: To clarify, it's not physical abuse, but at least by my standard, it could certainly be considered verbal and emotional abuse. No, I'm not looking for people to tell me I'm right, of course not and I don't know why my question might have made that impression on someone.
posted by Dansaman at 9:30 AM on May 2, 2013
posted by Dansaman at 9:30 AM on May 2, 2013
I always tell my husband that I'm sorry for my attitude when I'm in the throes of PMS.
Even though it's my hormonal fluctuations that are causing me to be a bitch, I still apologize.
posted by luckynerd at 9:30 AM on May 2, 2013 [1 favorite]
Even though it's my hormonal fluctuations that are causing me to be a bitch, I still apologize.
posted by luckynerd at 9:30 AM on May 2, 2013 [1 favorite]
Seconding Sara C. - I'd like to hear an example of what you mean.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:30 AM on May 2, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:30 AM on May 2, 2013 [1 favorite]
"Hormones" do not excuse abusive behavior, no matter the perpetrator or the target.
I think in general some care needs to be taken that people's opinions and feelings are treated respectfully even if they are quote-unquote "hormonal," but that's different from cruel or abusive behavior. If I felt so out of control once a month that I was abusing the person I'm supposed to love the most, I'd see a doctor. If my partner was verbally abusing me and blaming it on "hormones"and not looking for help, I'd be questioning my safety.
posted by muddgirl at 9:31 AM on May 2, 2013
I think in general some care needs to be taken that people's opinions and feelings are treated respectfully even if they are quote-unquote "hormonal," but that's different from cruel or abusive behavior. If I felt so out of control once a month that I was abusing the person I'm supposed to love the most, I'd see a doctor. If my partner was verbally abusing me and blaming it on "hormones"and not looking for help, I'd be questioning my safety.
posted by muddgirl at 9:31 AM on May 2, 2013
I'd like to hear examples of this behavior, too. You didn't really clarify things in your update, except to say that "by [your] standard, it could certainly be considered verbal and emotional abuse." Except I don't know what "your standard" is. So maybe some concrete examples?
(though PMS is never an excuse for poor behavior, IMO)
posted by sprezzy at 9:33 AM on May 2, 2013 [1 favorite]
(though PMS is never an excuse for poor behavior, IMO)
posted by sprezzy at 9:33 AM on May 2, 2013 [1 favorite]
There's never a reason to be cruel, uncivilized, unfair, or ogreish to anyone, especially without an apology afterward. And definitely not doing it to your spouse on a regular basis.
While there are medical issues that could be causing her extreme behavior, they can be addressed. Have you made her aware of the difference in her behavior between these times and her normal demeanor? It's possible that if it hasn't been pointed out, she may not realize how extreme she is being.
If she is aware and still hasn't seen a doctor or attempted to curb the behavior, that also tells you something. Are there other issues in your relationship? If it's not strictly a medical thing, or if she actively avoids finding a medical remedy for the behavior, she may just be using her PMS as an excuse to treat you this way because she knows you will just take it.
Unfortunately, I think you need to talk to her about it face to face - obviously not during that part of her cycle.
posted by trivia genius at 9:33 AM on May 2, 2013 [1 favorite]
While there are medical issues that could be causing her extreme behavior, they can be addressed. Have you made her aware of the difference in her behavior between these times and her normal demeanor? It's possible that if it hasn't been pointed out, she may not realize how extreme she is being.
If she is aware and still hasn't seen a doctor or attempted to curb the behavior, that also tells you something. Are there other issues in your relationship? If it's not strictly a medical thing, or if she actively avoids finding a medical remedy for the behavior, she may just be using her PMS as an excuse to treat you this way because she knows you will just take it.
Unfortunately, I think you need to talk to her about it face to face - obviously not during that part of her cycle.
posted by trivia genius at 9:33 AM on May 2, 2013 [1 favorite]
Feeling bad does not give someone an excuse for acting poorly. I'm a woman. I get PMS symptoms. And if I feel like I'm going to snap at someone, I remove myself from the situation, and would absolutely, certainly apologize for bad behavior even if I felt I had a hormonal "excuse."
posted by something something at 9:34 AM on May 2, 2013
posted by something something at 9:34 AM on May 2, 2013
I'm not looking for people to tell me I'm right, of course not and I don't know why my question might have made that impression on someone.
When someone posts a question asking, "Is it okay for my SO to act horribly?" everyone is going to say, "No! Of course not!"
If someone asks, "Is it okay for my SO to do this specific thing?" you'll get better, more specific answers.
Have you talked to her about this during a non-PMS time?
posted by ablazingsaddle at 9:34 AM on May 2, 2013 [21 favorites]
When someone posts a question asking, "Is it okay for my SO to act horribly?" everyone is going to say, "No! Of course not!"
If someone asks, "Is it okay for my SO to do this specific thing?" you'll get better, more specific answers.
Have you talked to her about this during a non-PMS time?
posted by ablazingsaddle at 9:34 AM on May 2, 2013 [21 favorites]
No, she's not allowed to be abusive or cruel, ever; yes, she should definately see a doctor, because it sounds like maybe her PMS is extreme.
But also yes: in what way, with examples please!, is she cruel and/or abusive? The way you've stated this question reminds me of the old joke about "When did you stop beating your wife?" --- no matter how you answer that, you'd be screwed.
posted by easily confused at 9:36 AM on May 2, 2013
But also yes: in what way, with examples please!, is she cruel and/or abusive? The way you've stated this question reminds me of the old joke about "When did you stop beating your wife?" --- no matter how you answer that, you'd be screwed.
posted by easily confused at 9:36 AM on May 2, 2013
As a woman currently suffering PMDD (the clinical version of PMS), who just yelled at her partner for no good reason a few hours ago, I can say that it's never okay to be abusive or cruel. Sometimes it happens, though. It's something you and your wife should discuss (probably after her menses is over for the month).
You might suggest your wife ask her OB/GYN or psychiatrist about pre-menstrual dysphoric disorder. It's a combination of physical and emotional symptoms, notably depression and extreme irritability. If it turns out to be PMDD, your wife might be able to tamp things down some by taking a mild anti-depressant during her cycle. (You can even get them in little birth control packs, so you know when to take the placebos and when to take the real deal.)
That doesn't necessarily solve the behavioral problem, which might be something you could ask your wife to discuss with her therapist, if she has one.
But before you bring any of this up, try and notice specific instances of egregious behavior that you can use as concrete examples. And you might steer clear of the word "abusive," as that conjures up very specific imagery. (You should also determine whether the behaviors you're talking about are actually abusive or if they're just mean. If there is a pattern of emotional abuse, that is a much bigger deal that needs to be addressed in therapy. Here's a checklist that might help you.) If you use specific examples and avoid dramatic language, you may have a better discussion when the time comes.
posted by brina at 9:36 AM on May 2, 2013 [1 favorite]
You might suggest your wife ask her OB/GYN or psychiatrist about pre-menstrual dysphoric disorder. It's a combination of physical and emotional symptoms, notably depression and extreme irritability. If it turns out to be PMDD, your wife might be able to tamp things down some by taking a mild anti-depressant during her cycle. (You can even get them in little birth control packs, so you know when to take the placebos and when to take the real deal.)
That doesn't necessarily solve the behavioral problem, which might be something you could ask your wife to discuss with her therapist, if she has one.
But before you bring any of this up, try and notice specific instances of egregious behavior that you can use as concrete examples. And you might steer clear of the word "abusive," as that conjures up very specific imagery. (You should also determine whether the behaviors you're talking about are actually abusive or if they're just mean. If there is a pattern of emotional abuse, that is a much bigger deal that needs to be addressed in therapy. Here's a checklist that might help you.) If you use specific examples and avoid dramatic language, you may have a better discussion when the time comes.
posted by brina at 9:36 AM on May 2, 2013 [1 favorite]
First of all, it's never OK for anyone to be rude, mean, disrespectful, harsh, or cruel to anyone else. It might be helpful for you to extrapolate on what kind of behavior you're experiencing -- is she prone to shouting, giving in to a short-fused temper, mood swinging, and generally disagreeable, or has she crossed the rubicon into physical, emotional, and/or psychological abuse? If it's the former, I'm guessing it does have something to do with PMS; if it's the latter, these are symptoms of a much larger problem.
Personally, I have developed severe PMS as I've gotten older. I know it's happening when my simmering sense of anger becomes overwhelming and all-consuming. I track my cycle specifically so I can see if/when my flare-ups of intense irritability coincide with my PMS (which usually spans the 5-7 days before my cycle starts); honestly, the time frames match up about 90% of the time.
To combat this, I issue a slew of preemptive apologies to any friends that I encounter during this time, with a caveat that they should really just ignore me because I'm on my monthly hormonal rampage. It truly does feel like a different beast takes over my brain; I lash out, I start fights for no reason, I get into stupid self-hate spirals. Of course, if I say anything hurtful or daft, I apologize profusely (and usually cry, and then eat a pint of bonbons).
It was all but impossible for me to understand why I was being such an asshole until a) my then-boyfriend asked me what was up and b) I started tracking my cycle. Now that I know when it's going to happen, I can take preemptive action to mitigate both the manifestation and the effects.
Have you or your wife looked into the symptoms of PMDD? Does she recognize her behavior as a problem in her life? I would recommend investigating PMDD as well as letting her know (when she is not PMSing) that this is having a majorly negative effect on your life apart and together. You definitely don't want to let it boil inside and slowly grow to resent her over it.
It was only after being confronted outright that I realized an aspect of my personality had indeed changed as I had aged, and it took a great deal of both introspection and intense engagement with the weirdness that is the female fertility cycle to understand that much of it was hormonally-driven.
I'm sorry you're experiencing this. Good luck!
posted by divined by radio at 9:37 AM on May 2, 2013 [3 favorites]
Personally, I have developed severe PMS as I've gotten older. I know it's happening when my simmering sense of anger becomes overwhelming and all-consuming. I track my cycle specifically so I can see if/when my flare-ups of intense irritability coincide with my PMS (which usually spans the 5-7 days before my cycle starts); honestly, the time frames match up about 90% of the time.
To combat this, I issue a slew of preemptive apologies to any friends that I encounter during this time, with a caveat that they should really just ignore me because I'm on my monthly hormonal rampage. It truly does feel like a different beast takes over my brain; I lash out, I start fights for no reason, I get into stupid self-hate spirals. Of course, if I say anything hurtful or daft, I apologize profusely (and usually cry, and then eat a pint of bonbons).
It was all but impossible for me to understand why I was being such an asshole until a) my then-boyfriend asked me what was up and b) I started tracking my cycle. Now that I know when it's going to happen, I can take preemptive action to mitigate both the manifestation and the effects.
Have you or your wife looked into the symptoms of PMDD? Does she recognize her behavior as a problem in her life? I would recommend investigating PMDD as well as letting her know (when she is not PMSing) that this is having a majorly negative effect on your life apart and together. You definitely don't want to let it boil inside and slowly grow to resent her over it.
It was only after being confronted outright that I realized an aspect of my personality had indeed changed as I had aged, and it took a great deal of both introspection and intense engagement with the weirdness that is the female fertility cycle to understand that much of it was hormonally-driven.
I'm sorry you're experiencing this. Good luck!
posted by divined by radio at 9:37 AM on May 2, 2013 [3 favorites]
rude, mean, disrespectful, harsh, and otherwise cruel
None of these things are okay when your wife has PMS. They are never okay, and any time they occur they deserve an apology at the very least.
I'm a woman, and I never used to get PMS...to be honest, I was starting to become skeptical about its very existence. Then I had a baby, and after my periods returned I finally started to get PMS. It sucks. But it doesn't give you carte blanche to treat people badly.
It's no different than if you, as her husband, had an illness or a migraine or something - you may be feeling bad, but it doesn't give you the right to mistreat your wife. So she should not be mistreating you.
posted by barnoley at 9:53 AM on May 2, 2013
None of these things are okay when your wife has PMS. They are never okay, and any time they occur they deserve an apology at the very least.
I'm a woman, and I never used to get PMS...to be honest, I was starting to become skeptical about its very existence. Then I had a baby, and after my periods returned I finally started to get PMS. It sucks. But it doesn't give you carte blanche to treat people badly.
It's no different than if you, as her husband, had an illness or a migraine or something - you may be feeling bad, but it doesn't give you the right to mistreat your wife. So she should not be mistreating you.
posted by barnoley at 9:53 AM on May 2, 2013
Response by poster: When someone posts a question asking, "Is it okay for my SO to act horribly?" everyone is going to say, "No! Of course not!"
Actually I don't know that. In fact, I expected a lot of people to say it's OK because it's her hormones.
For those who asked for an example, here's a recent one that is fresh on my mind:
I am taking care of our young daughter. My wife, who is working at that moment, wants me to pick something up (that is not urgently needed by any means) in the car. That thing will only fit in my car if I remove my daughter's car seat and put the back seat down. Obviously that won't work because I can't leave my daughter at home alone or have her sit in the front seat (and without a car seat, which can't go in the front seat anyway). So I suggest we do it later that day or another day when we are both available to resolve that problem. The response was an unreasonable, and in fact irrational, hostile tirade of "you never help with anything" and "I'm going to have my brother do it, just forget about it", etc. Sometimes such tirades end with such extremes as "I'm moving out". (I brush that off, but I think it's horrible to say that in front of our young daughter). Keep in mind, in this example I'm taking care of our daughter, not out golfing, surfing, watching TV, or otherwise sitting around doing nothing (I never do those things - I'm as dedicated to family as it gets). I told her I want to help but it's just physically impossible to fit our daughter and the thing in the car at the same time. She seemingly doesn't want to hear any facts at all because apparently reality isn't a factor in what I "should" be doing. Well, then a day or two later, PMS passes/mellows and she is 100% fine with us picking up this thing together next weekend (absolutely no urgency). As the fire damage clean-up commercial says (OK I do watch the news on TV once in a while when I'm the only one at home) "Like it never even happened".
I do consider my wife to be on the temperamental and moody side, but at non-PMS times her behavior isn't over the top like that.
posted by Dansaman at 9:54 AM on May 2, 2013
Actually I don't know that. In fact, I expected a lot of people to say it's OK because it's her hormones.
For those who asked for an example, here's a recent one that is fresh on my mind:
I am taking care of our young daughter. My wife, who is working at that moment, wants me to pick something up (that is not urgently needed by any means) in the car. That thing will only fit in my car if I remove my daughter's car seat and put the back seat down. Obviously that won't work because I can't leave my daughter at home alone or have her sit in the front seat (and without a car seat, which can't go in the front seat anyway). So I suggest we do it later that day or another day when we are both available to resolve that problem. The response was an unreasonable, and in fact irrational, hostile tirade of "you never help with anything" and "I'm going to have my brother do it, just forget about it", etc. Sometimes such tirades end with such extremes as "I'm moving out". (I brush that off, but I think it's horrible to say that in front of our young daughter). Keep in mind, in this example I'm taking care of our daughter, not out golfing, surfing, watching TV, or otherwise sitting around doing nothing (I never do those things - I'm as dedicated to family as it gets). I told her I want to help but it's just physically impossible to fit our daughter and the thing in the car at the same time. She seemingly doesn't want to hear any facts at all because apparently reality isn't a factor in what I "should" be doing. Well, then a day or two later, PMS passes/mellows and she is 100% fine with us picking up this thing together next weekend (absolutely no urgency). As the fire damage clean-up commercial says (OK I do watch the news on TV once in a while when I'm the only one at home) "Like it never even happened".
I do consider my wife to be on the temperamental and moody side, but at non-PMS times her behavior isn't over the top like that.
posted by Dansaman at 9:54 AM on May 2, 2013
Have you suggested that your wife see a doctor? Have you looked up PMS or PMDD? Can you look up a doctor for her to see?
If my husband had a health problem that affected his mood and our relationship, I'd beg him to see a doctor.
posted by discopolo at 9:54 AM on May 2, 2013 [1 favorite]
If my husband had a health problem that affected his mood and our relationship, I'd beg him to see a doctor.
posted by discopolo at 9:54 AM on May 2, 2013 [1 favorite]
When I was younger I used to get really bad PMS, I mean scream at my boss and quit my job in the middle of a meeting, end relationships and friendships that I'd had for years in a heartbeat, because right at that point I hated everyone, major relationships of all sorts damaging stuff, with occasional swings to massive 7 day long depressive episodes that vanished as soon as my periods ended. I never felt I was right to do these things, and often times felt like I was looking on in horror while someone else said and did the hurtful things but in the end I was the person doing it, but at that time I didn't have the skills to handle what was happening to me.
Getting older and birth control pills helped immensely, once I had to stop the BC due to side effects I have had to learn how to handle what is happening without the hormone balancing, specially now that I am married and would like to stay that way. I am not always successful, and feel like shit when it gets out of control, which can then make me more irrational. I am lucky I have a patient husband who lets me keep trying, he says as long as I keep trying and working on it, he'll stick with me through it, I am just never allowed to use it as an excuse.
What I am trying to say is if your wife is trying to control her outbursts, is willing to look for help and is truly sorry I would say work with her to try and while it may not be right as such at least you might be able to find some way to sort things out. If, of course, she is using it as an excuse to go "feral" on you one week a month then no it's never alright.
You guys need to talk about this, but trust me right now while she's in the throws of PMS is not the time.
posted by wwax at 10:02 AM on May 2, 2013 [1 favorite]
Getting older and birth control pills helped immensely, once I had to stop the BC due to side effects I have had to learn how to handle what is happening without the hormone balancing, specially now that I am married and would like to stay that way. I am not always successful, and feel like shit when it gets out of control, which can then make me more irrational. I am lucky I have a patient husband who lets me keep trying, he says as long as I keep trying and working on it, he'll stick with me through it, I am just never allowed to use it as an excuse.
What I am trying to say is if your wife is trying to control her outbursts, is willing to look for help and is truly sorry I would say work with her to try and while it may not be right as such at least you might be able to find some way to sort things out. If, of course, she is using it as an excuse to go "feral" on you one week a month then no it's never alright.
You guys need to talk about this, but trust me right now while she's in the throws of PMS is not the time.
posted by wwax at 10:02 AM on May 2, 2013 [1 favorite]
Tell her that it hurts your feelings when she says that and to not say it. Clearly she feels panicked and overwhelmed.
Also, taking care of your daughter is your responsibility. It's not like you get a medal for not choosing surfing instead. A lot of moms are expected to multitask---pick up kid, pick up ingredients for dinner, drop off dry cleaning, work full-time. If you protest doing much other than picking up your kid and driving home, I can see how she feels overwhelmed. She may be good about letting it go when she isn't hormonally overwhelmed, but it doesn't mean there isn't something to what she's saying.
Regardless, it's not okay to pick fights and not apologize. But it's also not about just pointing finger either. How is knowing she's wrong going to help the situation? Are you seeking permission to write her off as a bad wife and think of yourself as the better, long suffering spouse?
I think you need to show her you love her, express how she's being hurtful, and help her find the help she needs, whether it be a psychiatrist or a couples therapist. She's clearly feeling overwhelmed at some times and loving someone/ being a good husband/family member means communicating and supporting each other.
posted by discopolo at 10:05 AM on May 2, 2013 [11 favorites]
Also, taking care of your daughter is your responsibility. It's not like you get a medal for not choosing surfing instead. A lot of moms are expected to multitask---pick up kid, pick up ingredients for dinner, drop off dry cleaning, work full-time. If you protest doing much other than picking up your kid and driving home, I can see how she feels overwhelmed. She may be good about letting it go when she isn't hormonally overwhelmed, but it doesn't mean there isn't something to what she's saying.
Regardless, it's not okay to pick fights and not apologize. But it's also not about just pointing finger either. How is knowing she's wrong going to help the situation? Are you seeking permission to write her off as a bad wife and think of yourself as the better, long suffering spouse?
I think you need to show her you love her, express how she's being hurtful, and help her find the help she needs, whether it be a psychiatrist or a couples therapist. She's clearly feeling overwhelmed at some times and loving someone/ being a good husband/family member means communicating and supporting each other.
posted by discopolo at 10:05 AM on May 2, 2013 [11 favorites]
Reading your example, I have a few thoughts.
Firstly, the situation as described sounds a little bit borderline. If your daughter is an infant, yeah, that's nuts, the errand is impossible, and there's nothing to be done. It's irritating that she was snippy about it, but "Ugh whatever I'll just get someone else to do it" isn't abuse. If your daughter is, like, 8 or something, and it would technically be somewhat unsafe for her to ride in the front seat for a short car trip but otherwise not physically impossible to do, yeah, dude, sorry, just do the errand. Christ. I'd be annoyed at you, too.
Secondly, and more importantly. The thing about how sometimes she ends these scuffles with thoughts of moving out makes me think there's a lot more here than some impatient moods during PMS. Are you guys in couples counseling? Regardless of reason, I would proceed to couples counseling and do not collect $200 the second I heard my spouse threaten to move out after a minor spat about who would run a particular errand, when.
posted by Sara C. at 10:09 AM on May 2, 2013 [28 favorites]
Firstly, the situation as described sounds a little bit borderline. If your daughter is an infant, yeah, that's nuts, the errand is impossible, and there's nothing to be done. It's irritating that she was snippy about it, but "Ugh whatever I'll just get someone else to do it" isn't abuse. If your daughter is, like, 8 or something, and it would technically be somewhat unsafe for her to ride in the front seat for a short car trip but otherwise not physically impossible to do, yeah, dude, sorry, just do the errand. Christ. I'd be annoyed at you, too.
Secondly, and more importantly. The thing about how sometimes she ends these scuffles with thoughts of moving out makes me think there's a lot more here than some impatient moods during PMS. Are you guys in couples counseling? Regardless of reason, I would proceed to couples counseling and do not collect $200 the second I heard my spouse threaten to move out after a minor spat about who would run a particular errand, when.
posted by Sara C. at 10:09 AM on May 2, 2013 [28 favorites]
Thanks for the example.
I think it may be wise to talk to her sometime when she is not having PMS, and tell her your concerns. But try to approach it like, "hon, you tend to say things like [this] and [that] when you're having PMS, and I'm afraid that that's a warning sign because it's so out of character for you", rather than phrasing it like "you get abusive when you're having PMS". Saying it the second way may make her feel defensive - saying it the first way will let her know that this is just something you've noticed about her and are worried.
I mean, you're right that it's not fair to you that she does this, but this is mainly her own problem and you want to let her know you're on the same side about this.
Good luck.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:13 AM on May 2, 2013 [3 favorites]
I think it may be wise to talk to her sometime when she is not having PMS, and tell her your concerns. But try to approach it like, "hon, you tend to say things like [this] and [that] when you're having PMS, and I'm afraid that that's a warning sign because it's so out of character for you", rather than phrasing it like "you get abusive when you're having PMS". Saying it the second way may make her feel defensive - saying it the first way will let her know that this is just something you've noticed about her and are worried.
I mean, you're right that it's not fair to you that she does this, but this is mainly her own problem and you want to let her know you're on the same side about this.
Good luck.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:13 AM on May 2, 2013 [3 favorites]
This sounds like it's far beyond the garden variety PMS which can make a woman feel a bit more sad or frustrated than usual.
I think she needs to see a doctor and also should see a therapist to help her develop some anger management and coping skills to use during the PMS times. A large part of this is a medical problem that she needs to learn to manage through treatment and skills development.
Is she aware of her terrible behavior? Does she apologize after every month's transgressions? If she isn't mortified by her behavior after the fact, you may have bigger fish to fry. Even severe PMS isn't a free pass to be emotionally abusive, especially when that is being witnessed by your child.
In the meantime, I've found exercise is the one thing that really helps when I get PMS. It's probably the time of the month I least feel like going to the gym or exercising, but it helps immensely.
posted by quince at 10:13 AM on May 2, 2013 [1 favorite]
I think she needs to see a doctor and also should see a therapist to help her develop some anger management and coping skills to use during the PMS times. A large part of this is a medical problem that she needs to learn to manage through treatment and skills development.
Is she aware of her terrible behavior? Does she apologize after every month's transgressions? If she isn't mortified by her behavior after the fact, you may have bigger fish to fry. Even severe PMS isn't a free pass to be emotionally abusive, especially when that is being witnessed by your child.
In the meantime, I've found exercise is the one thing that really helps when I get PMS. It's probably the time of the month I least feel like going to the gym or exercising, but it helps immensely.
posted by quince at 10:13 AM on May 2, 2013 [1 favorite]
Sounds like maybe she doesn't have a handle on the mood swings at all, but I can definitely tell you those motherfuckers can be a DOOZY. Yes, if I'm being vigilant I know why I suddenly feel as though I have completely lost my mind. But this lady is busy, son, and I do not always keep track! And it really, truly, feels like I have lost my mind.
For unrelated reasons I have a sort of iron vise grip on my temper, so lashing out happens very infrequently. But I would have your wife's exact same tirade in my head. (And wonder where the fuck did this come from?)
It's not an excuse, and she should definitely take steps to get a handle on it and apologize after the fact.
Speaking of which: she might not think to apologize because she literally might not remember. These things happen to me almost like a brown-out or blackout phase, and while I might later think huh, Tuesday was ass, I do not necessarily remember snapping at someone or muttering curses in public etc.
posted by like_a_friend at 10:17 AM on May 2, 2013 [4 favorites]
For unrelated reasons I have a sort of iron vise grip on my temper, so lashing out happens very infrequently. But I would have your wife's exact same tirade in my head. (And wonder where the fuck did this come from?)
It's not an excuse, and she should definitely take steps to get a handle on it and apologize after the fact.
Speaking of which: she might not think to apologize because she literally might not remember. These things happen to me almost like a brown-out or blackout phase, and while I might later think huh, Tuesday was ass, I do not necessarily remember snapping at someone or muttering curses in public etc.
posted by like_a_friend at 10:17 AM on May 2, 2013 [4 favorites]
My rule of thumb: one can't help feeling grouchy, irritable, anxious, etc., but one can and should control one's words and actions. So if she is irrationally mad at you during PMS-time, that's okay - we can't usually control how we feel. If she verbally abuses you, that's not okay, ever.
I agree that if her PMS is interfering with her quality of life, and from your question it sounds like it is, she should talk to her doctor about it.
posted by insectosaurus at 10:18 AM on May 2, 2013
I agree that if her PMS is interfering with her quality of life, and from your question it sounds like it is, she should talk to her doctor about it.
posted by insectosaurus at 10:18 AM on May 2, 2013
No. Not OK.
If she doesn't appear to care that she hurts you terribly while she has PMS (doesn't seem aware, doesn't feel she needs to change or get help, doesn't apologize), the problem is not PMS. PMS is real and hormones really can make you feel wacky things, and maybe that's why she's lashing out, but the real problem is that she's not trying to make the situation better.
posted by Cygnet at 10:19 AM on May 2, 2013
If she doesn't appear to care that she hurts you terribly while she has PMS (doesn't seem aware, doesn't feel she needs to change or get help, doesn't apologize), the problem is not PMS. PMS is real and hormones really can make you feel wacky things, and maybe that's why she's lashing out, but the real problem is that she's not trying to make the situation better.
posted by Cygnet at 10:19 AM on May 2, 2013
Your example, where she says "you never help with anything" (etc), sounds to me like there is some underlying frustration that she feels you aren't really doing enough. Maybe what is really needed is more communication (at other times especially). There is a human tendency to look for someone to blame for our frustrations. When there are small children, life tends to be bumpy, there are never enough hours in the day, etc. The spouse is the logical person to blame (since the child is too young to reasonably hold responsible).
Maybe sit her down at a non PMS time and talk about current stressors and brainstorm how to get some practical relief for things that just grate on her daily and then turn into a bonfire when she is hormonal. Things that do not bother you may be just wearing on her and not recognized by you as a big issue. I know for me, the amount of debt my husband and I carried drove me nuts. Any pay raise he got just meant he felt comfortable carrying a higher debt load. This was something I would have liked to shoot him over. It was never resolved during the marriage, which I deeply resented.
Below is what I wrote before your update:
I suffered horrible PMS when I was younger. Some observations and thoughts:
At age 18, the vast majority of my screaming at him when I had PMS could be roughly translated as "You have been here ten minutes and we aren't in bed yet, you son of a bitch!!!!!" Sex was usually the solution. We would have gotten along a lot better if he had been quicker on the uptake about that.
There was always some legitimate issue behind my fits. It was just magnified. My ex was real bad about not adequately resolving problems, so PMS meant my bitterness about long-standing issues got thrown in his face. In contrast, my two adult sons have a track record of fixing their shit, so when I am hormonal these days, it works just fine for them to point out I am kind of over the top here and should lighten up. That never worked for my husband because it amounted to weaseling out of addressing a legitimate gripe.
So I would suggest that if there are areas where you are not doing right by her, fix that and see if that removes some of the venom from her hormonal state. Also talk to her about the sexual piece and see if maybe more sexual attention would help during that time. No, she shouldn't be just verbally abusive but it takes two to make a relationship work. When there is a recurrent or chronic issue, usually both people are contributing to the pattern. It is usually not all on one or the other. It is much more in your power to examine your side of the equation and work on that than to try to make someone else change.
Plus, do some research. Eating differently gave me relief from some of my worst menstrual issues. And that made everyone's life more pleasant without any finger pointing or the like. I mean it is just different to have someone say "you might suffer less if you eat different" instead of "quit being a bitch" when a person is basically miserable. I try to cut people some slack when they are miserable. Reducing the misery has consistently proven far more effective in eliminating "behavioral" issues than punishment, rules, figuring out who to blame, etc. Your wife basically has a physical health issue. Treating it as such may do a lot more for the two of you than treating it like "bad behavior."
Not to say that's all you should do. If this has gone on a while, it may be a bad habit and you may have to work on the social piece as well. But that part will be less intractable after the physical piece is improved.
posted by Michele in California at 10:22 AM on May 2, 2013 [4 favorites]
Maybe sit her down at a non PMS time and talk about current stressors and brainstorm how to get some practical relief for things that just grate on her daily and then turn into a bonfire when she is hormonal. Things that do not bother you may be just wearing on her and not recognized by you as a big issue. I know for me, the amount of debt my husband and I carried drove me nuts. Any pay raise he got just meant he felt comfortable carrying a higher debt load. This was something I would have liked to shoot him over. It was never resolved during the marriage, which I deeply resented.
Below is what I wrote before your update:
I suffered horrible PMS when I was younger. Some observations and thoughts:
At age 18, the vast majority of my screaming at him when I had PMS could be roughly translated as "You have been here ten minutes and we aren't in bed yet, you son of a bitch!!!!!" Sex was usually the solution. We would have gotten along a lot better if he had been quicker on the uptake about that.
There was always some legitimate issue behind my fits. It was just magnified. My ex was real bad about not adequately resolving problems, so PMS meant my bitterness about long-standing issues got thrown in his face. In contrast, my two adult sons have a track record of fixing their shit, so when I am hormonal these days, it works just fine for them to point out I am kind of over the top here and should lighten up. That never worked for my husband because it amounted to weaseling out of addressing a legitimate gripe.
So I would suggest that if there are areas where you are not doing right by her, fix that and see if that removes some of the venom from her hormonal state. Also talk to her about the sexual piece and see if maybe more sexual attention would help during that time. No, she shouldn't be just verbally abusive but it takes two to make a relationship work. When there is a recurrent or chronic issue, usually both people are contributing to the pattern. It is usually not all on one or the other. It is much more in your power to examine your side of the equation and work on that than to try to make someone else change.
Plus, do some research. Eating differently gave me relief from some of my worst menstrual issues. And that made everyone's life more pleasant without any finger pointing or the like. I mean it is just different to have someone say "you might suffer less if you eat different" instead of "quit being a bitch" when a person is basically miserable. I try to cut people some slack when they are miserable. Reducing the misery has consistently proven far more effective in eliminating "behavioral" issues than punishment, rules, figuring out who to blame, etc. Your wife basically has a physical health issue. Treating it as such may do a lot more for the two of you than treating it like "bad behavior."
Not to say that's all you should do. If this has gone on a while, it may be a bad habit and you may have to work on the social piece as well. But that part will be less intractable after the physical piece is improved.
posted by Michele in California at 10:22 AM on May 2, 2013 [4 favorites]
Response by poster: Since you asked...
- Yes she's aware of the behavior. I do talk to her about it sometimes (at non-PMS times of course) and she says the solution is for her to stay clear of people. Easier said than done.
- Aware...but does she care? I've suggested gingerly at non-PMS times that she go to the doctor. I think she has tried a few treatments over the years. But she's not a grab the bull by the horns type person. And I don't think she'll ever see her PMS-fueled verbal and emotional abusiveness as problems that need to be solved.
- I think to some extent her behavior can be seen as a magnified version of her already temperamental and moody nature, but to an extent that becomes very hard for me to accept even when knowing it's temporary.
- Sometimes I think one factor in her doing this is because she can get away with it. I have a very patient and mellow personality and am very good about taking care of family matters, so as her siblings would say, she's "spoiled" in a way.
- Our daughter is under 5 and required by law (and good sense) to be in a car seat.
- I assumed most guys go through something similar with their wives but that there was some variation in degree.
posted by Dansaman at 10:24 AM on May 2, 2013 [1 favorite]
- Yes she's aware of the behavior. I do talk to her about it sometimes (at non-PMS times of course) and she says the solution is for her to stay clear of people. Easier said than done.
- Aware...but does she care? I've suggested gingerly at non-PMS times that she go to the doctor. I think she has tried a few treatments over the years. But she's not a grab the bull by the horns type person. And I don't think she'll ever see her PMS-fueled verbal and emotional abusiveness as problems that need to be solved.
- I think to some extent her behavior can be seen as a magnified version of her already temperamental and moody nature, but to an extent that becomes very hard for me to accept even when knowing it's temporary.
- Sometimes I think one factor in her doing this is because she can get away with it. I have a very patient and mellow personality and am very good about taking care of family matters, so as her siblings would say, she's "spoiled" in a way.
- Our daughter is under 5 and required by law (and good sense) to be in a car seat.
- I assumed most guys go through something similar with their wives but that there was some variation in degree.
posted by Dansaman at 10:24 AM on May 2, 2013 [1 favorite]
My feelings about PMS have fluctuated greatly over the years. There was a period of time when I viewed all PMS as an anti-feminist myth. Of course, at the time, I was on the pill and didn't often experience it.
I feel really ragey and also more hyperactive and persnickety in the days right before my period. However, through therapy I've become much better at communicating all of my emotions directly rather than venting them about unrelated things. So it used to be that I'd go around the house in a whirlwind cleaning and then come in and start chewing my husband out for, I don't know, letting his office get messy. Now I go around the house in a whirlwind cleaning, then realize I'm PMSing and go to my husband to tell my husband I'm feeling stressed out and needy and hormonal and can he come give me a hug. It's still probably a little annoying for him, but we don't fight any more, and I'm not cruelly venting my energies on unrelated issues.
I'd much rather not have to deal with these emotions, but dealing with them directly has really shorted some unhealthy interactions for us. If she's willing, CBT might be helpful (my therapist actually recommends that we both acknowledge when external factors influence my feelings--"I think you're upset because you just came home from your mother's house. Let's talk about it" or "I'm feeling really crappy and hormonal but I don't want to hurt your feelings so I'm going for a walk"), but of course, these are all changes she must make. Not you.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 10:25 AM on May 2, 2013 [1 favorite]
I feel really ragey and also more hyperactive and persnickety in the days right before my period. However, through therapy I've become much better at communicating all of my emotions directly rather than venting them about unrelated things. So it used to be that I'd go around the house in a whirlwind cleaning and then come in and start chewing my husband out for, I don't know, letting his office get messy. Now I go around the house in a whirlwind cleaning, then realize I'm PMSing and go to my husband to tell my husband I'm feeling stressed out and needy and hormonal and can he come give me a hug. It's still probably a little annoying for him, but we don't fight any more, and I'm not cruelly venting my energies on unrelated issues.
I'd much rather not have to deal with these emotions, but dealing with them directly has really shorted some unhealthy interactions for us. If she's willing, CBT might be helpful (my therapist actually recommends that we both acknowledge when external factors influence my feelings--"I think you're upset because you just came home from your mother's house. Let's talk about it" or "I'm feeling really crappy and hormonal but I don't want to hurt your feelings so I'm going for a walk"), but of course, these are all changes she must make. Not you.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 10:25 AM on May 2, 2013 [1 favorite]
- I assumed most guys go through something similar with their wives but that there was some variation in degree.
Yeah, no all women are not like this. That's sort of a strange assumption and I hope the overwhelming counter-evidence in this thread helps you get rid of it.
posted by sweetkid at 10:27 AM on May 2, 2013 [16 favorites]
Yeah, no all women are not like this. That's sort of a strange assumption and I hope the overwhelming counter-evidence in this thread helps you get rid of it.
posted by sweetkid at 10:27 AM on May 2, 2013 [16 favorites]
Yeah, dude, I'm sorry, and I know it's not what you want to hear, but I really don't think the biggest issue in your relationship is the possibility that she has PMDD.
It sounds like there is a lot of underlying stuff, here. Like you guys maybe have deeper communication issues. Saying things like "you never...", escalating minor disagreements over when/how an errand should be done, frequently throwing around the idea of ending the relationship. PMDD can make you feel moody. It can't construct entire relationship narratives out of whole cloth, leading you to want a divorce out of nowhere.
You guys need counseling. She may also need to see someone separately to help her work on her temper, but from what you describe, your wife's temper doesn't seem to be the biggest problem in your relationship.
FWIW If she honestly thinks that she is emotionally out of control immediately prior to her period, in a way that she can't get a handle on herself, she should definitely be talking to her GP or gynecologist about it. Not just so that she can solve the problem, but because hormonal issues like this can be indicators of other health problems.
posted by Sara C. at 10:32 AM on May 2, 2013 [32 favorites]
It sounds like there is a lot of underlying stuff, here. Like you guys maybe have deeper communication issues. Saying things like "you never...", escalating minor disagreements over when/how an errand should be done, frequently throwing around the idea of ending the relationship. PMDD can make you feel moody. It can't construct entire relationship narratives out of whole cloth, leading you to want a divorce out of nowhere.
You guys need counseling. She may also need to see someone separately to help her work on her temper, but from what you describe, your wife's temper doesn't seem to be the biggest problem in your relationship.
FWIW If she honestly thinks that she is emotionally out of control immediately prior to her period, in a way that she can't get a handle on herself, she should definitely be talking to her GP or gynecologist about it. Not just so that she can solve the problem, but because hormonal issues like this can be indicators of other health problems.
posted by Sara C. at 10:32 AM on May 2, 2013 [32 favorites]
Reading more through your examples, I think it would be okay to go to her when she's not PMSing and say something like: "I honestly understand that you feel awful when you're PMSing, and in the moment, these problems are very real to you. But sometimes, when you tell me you're moving out, or snap at me, my feelings are hurt. I also don't think this is great stuff for our daughter to hear. Can we talk now about ways to circumvent these patterns in the future? Would it help if I point out when you say something hurtful, or if I remove myself from the situation until you've calmed down? Is there something I can do--give you a hug, or do the dishes, or get you a beer--when you're feeling that way rather than us fighting over silly things that you don't normally care about? I'm willing to work together on this. We're in this together."
The key is to disrupt unhealthy patterns and to replace them with new coping mechanisms for both of you.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 10:32 AM on May 2, 2013 [3 favorites]
The key is to disrupt unhealthy patterns and to replace them with new coping mechanisms for both of you.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 10:32 AM on May 2, 2013 [3 favorites]
It sounds like there is more going on than garden variety PMS. Her threatening to move out is a major major overreaction. PMS doesn't give a woman permission to treat others poorly. Is she happy in the relationship? Are you guys dealing with other marital issues? I think Sara C. and Michele in California are making good points, that the outbursts may be more about existing issues that just get magnified by the hormones.
On preview:
I assumed most guys go through something similar with their wives but that there was some variation in degree
Um, there are "variation in degree" and then there is what you are dealing with. I'm a woman who suffers from PMS, I get terrible cramps and major mood swings, PLUS I suffer from depression and it just makes everything worse. The worst I do to my fiance when I am all hormonal is get a bit frustrated and pouty, maybe cry a bit, and ask him to bring me some cookies and give me hugs.
________________________________________________________________________
- Yes she's aware of the behavior. I do talk to her about it sometimes (at non-PMS times of course) and she says the solution is for her to stay clear of people.
Point out that you've tried that and it DOESN'T WORK because you have been attacked and she has lashed out at you multiple times. So you have tried her way, it doesn't work, so now she should (hopefully) be open to trying a different way.
_____________________________________________________
Aware...but does she care? / magnified version of her already temperamental and moody nature / Sometimes I think one factor in her doing this is because she can get away with it.
THIS is your problem I think. She doesn't see her outbursts as a problem, when it clearly is for you. And you're right, your daughter should not be hearing stuff like that. It is harmful to her. Also, what does she do at work? Does she lash out at people when she is at work and hormonal? It is pretty hard for to stay clear of people at work. I am guessing she controls herself at work so that means she CAN control it, but that she doesn't bother with you. She is okay with lashing out at you. This is a big problem.
posted by PuppetMcSockerson at 10:33 AM on May 2, 2013 [5 favorites]
On preview:
I assumed most guys go through something similar with their wives but that there was some variation in degree
Um, there are "variation in degree" and then there is what you are dealing with. I'm a woman who suffers from PMS, I get terrible cramps and major mood swings, PLUS I suffer from depression and it just makes everything worse. The worst I do to my fiance when I am all hormonal is get a bit frustrated and pouty, maybe cry a bit, and ask him to bring me some cookies and give me hugs.
________________________________________________________________________
- Yes she's aware of the behavior. I do talk to her about it sometimes (at non-PMS times of course) and she says the solution is for her to stay clear of people.
Point out that you've tried that and it DOESN'T WORK because you have been attacked and she has lashed out at you multiple times. So you have tried her way, it doesn't work, so now she should (hopefully) be open to trying a different way.
_____________________________________________________
Aware...but does she care? / magnified version of her already temperamental and moody nature / Sometimes I think one factor in her doing this is because she can get away with it.
THIS is your problem I think. She doesn't see her outbursts as a problem, when it clearly is for you. And you're right, your daughter should not be hearing stuff like that. It is harmful to her. Also, what does she do at work? Does she lash out at people when she is at work and hormonal? It is pretty hard for to stay clear of people at work. I am guessing she controls herself at work so that means she CAN control it, but that she doesn't bother with you. She is okay with lashing out at you. This is a big problem.
posted by PuppetMcSockerson at 10:33 AM on May 2, 2013 [5 favorites]
In my experience, severe PMS ddidn't make me say things that had no prior basis in my mind - I just got angry/frustrated at the things that usually anger/frustrate me but that I can usually ignore. Based on the one example given, I suspect this is the case with your wife.
My mother had biochemical issues that led to a short temper. It was an unpleasant environment to grow up in and I'm still dealing with those issues today. For your daughter's sake, I think you need to step up and be more assertive that this kind of behavior is Not OK. If your wife has issues with you, she needs to learn discuss them. If she's mad, rationally or irrationally, she should disengage until she's calmer. If she can't deal with that, you should both get help.
posted by muddgirl at 10:34 AM on May 2, 2013 [11 favorites]
My mother had biochemical issues that led to a short temper. It was an unpleasant environment to grow up in and I'm still dealing with those issues today. For your daughter's sake, I think you need to step up and be more assertive that this kind of behavior is Not OK. If your wife has issues with you, she needs to learn discuss them. If she's mad, rationally or irrationally, she should disengage until she's calmer. If she can't deal with that, you should both get help.
posted by muddgirl at 10:34 AM on May 2, 2013 [11 favorites]
If your daughter is, like, 8 or something, and it would technically be somewhat unsafe for her to ride in the front seat for a short car trip but otherwise not physically impossible to do, yeah, dude, sorry, just do the errand. Christ. I'd be annoyed at you, too.
There really isn't such a thing as "technically unsafe". It is just unsafe, period. Children of certain sizes and shapes need to be in the appropriate restraining system.
OP, the example was very helpful. I think the behavior is beyond the pale. "I'm moving out" is a horrible thing to say in front of your child.
"she says the solution is for her to stay clear of people" told me all I needed to know. That is not a rational response. Her solution is not a solution. Her solution is "I don't change a thing and reality caters to me". That is a non-starter. The behavior you describe is not normal. It doesn't even matter if PMS is involved. Perhaps she is diagnosable with something.
I have the impression that you walk on eggshells when it comes to your wife. I recommend that you stop doing that. You might try leading her in this regard.
posted by Tanizaki at 10:36 AM on May 2, 2013 [9 favorites]
There really isn't such a thing as "technically unsafe". It is just unsafe, period. Children of certain sizes and shapes need to be in the appropriate restraining system.
OP, the example was very helpful. I think the behavior is beyond the pale. "I'm moving out" is a horrible thing to say in front of your child.
"she says the solution is for her to stay clear of people" told me all I needed to know. That is not a rational response. Her solution is not a solution. Her solution is "I don't change a thing and reality caters to me". That is a non-starter. The behavior you describe is not normal. It doesn't even matter if PMS is involved. Perhaps she is diagnosable with something.
I have the impression that you walk on eggshells when it comes to your wife. I recommend that you stop doing that. You might try leading her in this regard.
posted by Tanizaki at 10:36 AM on May 2, 2013 [9 favorites]
I'm a woman who suffers pretty potent PMS, and I mark things out on the calendar (a pencil dot on the date of last month's period) so my husband can figure out at a glance if I'm crying from hormones or not. I apologize when I go nuts. I think it's quite possible your wife is suffering, but also using it as an excuse to cut loose and make you suffer too. In short, no, it's not a free pass. I think you should explore couples therapy (as well as her investigating whether she has PMDD/needs meds) if you are hoping for things to get better.
posted by tomboko at 10:37 AM on May 2, 2013 [3 favorites]
posted by tomboko at 10:37 AM on May 2, 2013 [3 favorites]
I'm not sure how you can easily bring this up, but another factor in this issue is the behaviors she is teaching your daughter. I grew up with a mother that was very volatile emotionally due to PMS. Unfortunately, every single time she lost her temper, rolled screaming on the floor, or lashed out at me or my father, it was almost immediately excused as "hormones." Later when she had a hysterectomy and got in hormone replacement therapy, she was a whole new woman and my dad and I realized that the issues were really hormonal.
Sadly, by that point the damage was done. Because she was so volatile and unpredictable and every aspect of bad behavior was not her fault due to hormones, I resented the hell out of her and firmly believed that PMS was a big bullshit move to get away with being a bitch. Because of that, I did not seek medical attention when my own hormonal issues reared their head in my late 20s and just suffered through pain and emotional drama for far too long. It ruined a few friendships and may have helped to kill a long term relationship.
I know a number of women who, because they learned from their mothers that PMS was the perfect excuse either abuse that notion to the detriment of their interpersonal relationships or ignore serious medical issues that could be resolved if they were willing to admit that pmdd is a real thing and they aren't just a crazy, weak bitch that's looking for an excuse.
posted by teleri025 at 10:38 AM on May 2, 2013 [6 favorites]
Sadly, by that point the damage was done. Because she was so volatile and unpredictable and every aspect of bad behavior was not her fault due to hormones, I resented the hell out of her and firmly believed that PMS was a big bullshit move to get away with being a bitch. Because of that, I did not seek medical attention when my own hormonal issues reared their head in my late 20s and just suffered through pain and emotional drama for far too long. It ruined a few friendships and may have helped to kill a long term relationship.
I know a number of women who, because they learned from their mothers that PMS was the perfect excuse either abuse that notion to the detriment of their interpersonal relationships or ignore serious medical issues that could be resolved if they were willing to admit that pmdd is a real thing and they aren't just a crazy, weak bitch that's looking for an excuse.
posted by teleri025 at 10:38 AM on May 2, 2013 [6 favorites]
I must've grown up in a more dysfunctional environment than I realize, because your example seemed pretty borderline to me.
But it sounds like you guys have some real communication issues. She doesn't sound like a peach here, but maybe there's a larger, fucked-up dynamic going on.
For what it's worth, my PMS just makes me sad. All women experience PMS differently, and the "Crazy PMS Lady" is just a sexist trope and/or the perfect excuse for bad behavior.
posted by ablazingsaddle at 10:42 AM on May 2, 2013 [4 favorites]
But it sounds like you guys have some real communication issues. She doesn't sound like a peach here, but maybe there's a larger, fucked-up dynamic going on.
For what it's worth, my PMS just makes me sad. All women experience PMS differently, and the "Crazy PMS Lady" is just a sexist trope and/or the perfect excuse for bad behavior.
posted by ablazingsaddle at 10:42 AM on May 2, 2013 [4 favorites]
I'm glad people are pointing out that this situation needs attention because of its effects on your daughter, if nothing else. A parent threatening to move out in front of her kid, then acting as if nothing happened? That combination of volatility and denial is not okay for a child and deserves attention from a family health perspective.
posted by kalapierson at 10:44 AM on May 2, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by kalapierson at 10:44 AM on May 2, 2013 [2 favorites]
Your remark that she is not a "grab the bull by the horns" type makes me think that not really trying hard to treat her PMS is kind of "accidentally on purpose" finding a way to advocate for herself.
I do not like fighting with people or arguing overly much. I don't like needing to advocate for myself. If I ask for something and people don't accommodate me, my default is to just do without, leave, go elsewhere, etc. I arrange my life these days so that people close to me are people who will be good to me without me having to "fight" with them to get my needs met.
When my older son was little, long before he had any idea about menstruation and hormones, he noticed that every few weeks, mom would have an ugly, screaming fight with dad. If he had any complaints about his dad, he waited until I had a screaming fight with his dad and the next day would say "dad is doing x and I don't like it." If I said "Too bad, so sad. You have to clean your room anyway." he concluded his dad was not being mean even if he wasn't happy about x. But if it was something I found objectionable, instead of doing my usual "ugh! Please just try to avoid him. He's not that bad. (etc)" keep-the-peace type noises, I would go on the warpath and let his dad know that x had to stop and, by god, would stop.
In other words, behavior I actually did not like or approve of got accepted with some annoyance most of the time. But when I was hormonal, I was more willing to take a stand and fight about it. My son used that fact to his benefit.
My ex was not the most socially savvy, sensitive guy. He was a tad deaf about some things. Not everyone is like that. At this point, I would rather be alone than live that way again. But at the time, being hormonal prevented me from being a doormat 100% of the time and allowed me to avocate for myself and my children, something I don't like doing anyway and which was especially difficult because my husband wasn't readily cooperative, understanding and accommodating.
So maybe you need to grab the bull by the horns for her a little more often. And then maybe she will be more okay with really fixing this problem because she won't need some excuse to air problems that she doesn't really want to mention most of the time. In other words, be a little more observant, bring up things that seem to bother her and propose a few possible solutions, etc instead of waiting for her to lose her shit if losing her shit is the only way she ever really brings anything up. If that makes sense.
posted by Michele in California at 10:50 AM on May 2, 2013 [6 favorites]
I do not like fighting with people or arguing overly much. I don't like needing to advocate for myself. If I ask for something and people don't accommodate me, my default is to just do without, leave, go elsewhere, etc. I arrange my life these days so that people close to me are people who will be good to me without me having to "fight" with them to get my needs met.
When my older son was little, long before he had any idea about menstruation and hormones, he noticed that every few weeks, mom would have an ugly, screaming fight with dad. If he had any complaints about his dad, he waited until I had a screaming fight with his dad and the next day would say "dad is doing x and I don't like it." If I said "Too bad, so sad. You have to clean your room anyway." he concluded his dad was not being mean even if he wasn't happy about x. But if it was something I found objectionable, instead of doing my usual "ugh! Please just try to avoid him. He's not that bad. (etc)" keep-the-peace type noises, I would go on the warpath and let his dad know that x had to stop and, by god, would stop.
In other words, behavior I actually did not like or approve of got accepted with some annoyance most of the time. But when I was hormonal, I was more willing to take a stand and fight about it. My son used that fact to his benefit.
My ex was not the most socially savvy, sensitive guy. He was a tad deaf about some things. Not everyone is like that. At this point, I would rather be alone than live that way again. But at the time, being hormonal prevented me from being a doormat 100% of the time and allowed me to avocate for myself and my children, something I don't like doing anyway and which was especially difficult because my husband wasn't readily cooperative, understanding and accommodating.
So maybe you need to grab the bull by the horns for her a little more often. And then maybe she will be more okay with really fixing this problem because she won't need some excuse to air problems that she doesn't really want to mention most of the time. In other words, be a little more observant, bring up things that seem to bother her and propose a few possible solutions, etc instead of waiting for her to lose her shit if losing her shit is the only way she ever really brings anything up. If that makes sense.
posted by Michele in California at 10:50 AM on May 2, 2013 [6 favorites]
My wife and I often take the below tack in times of unreasonable frustration and misdirected anger (PMS or otherwise) at each other.
[Negative and irrational reaction]
Step 1: "That really hurt my feelings. I love you, but that really bothers me. Is there anything I can do to help (other than this thing I can't do / thing that shouldn't be bothering anyone)?"
[Continued negative and irrational reaction]
Step 2: "Well... I'll be the first to say that I understand that when I'm entrenched in being miserable and irritable I'm going to stay there come hell or high water... I'm going to be over here until you figure things out."
[Leave the room/go for a walk/go to the store]
To us, it says "I love you, and I understand your reaction based on illness/PMS/bad day at work, but I will not tolerate or excuse mean behavior."
posted by Debaser626 at 11:00 AM on May 2, 2013 [10 favorites]
[Negative and irrational reaction]
Step 1: "That really hurt my feelings. I love you, but that really bothers me. Is there anything I can do to help (other than this thing I can't do / thing that shouldn't be bothering anyone)?"
[Continued negative and irrational reaction]
Step 2: "Well... I'll be the first to say that I understand that when I'm entrenched in being miserable and irritable I'm going to stay there come hell or high water... I'm going to be over here until you figure things out."
[Leave the room/go for a walk/go to the store]
To us, it says "I love you, and I understand your reaction based on illness/PMS/bad day at work, but I will not tolerate or excuse mean behavior."
posted by Debaser626 at 11:00 AM on May 2, 2013 [10 favorites]
- Aware...but does she care? I've suggested gingerly at non-PMS times that she go to the doctor. I think she has tried a few treatments over the years. But she's not a grab the bull by the horns type person. And I don't think she'll ever see her PMS-fueled verbal and emotional abusiveness as problems that need to be solved.
It sounds to me like you've already decided she won't change.
What I hear in your question and follow ups is not caring about her or how she's feeling or caring about your relationship, but just that you want confirmation that she's an unreasonable witch/harpy who will never change and is using a "PMS" card to make you feel bad.
I'm not getting that"I'm really worried about my wife and I really want to help her feel better. How?" sense. I'm getting a "Confirm how I'm married to a terrible abuser because PMS isn't real and is just an excuse women use to verbally abuse their spouses/partners."
If the latter is the case, let me confirm to you that PMS can be a terrible mindfuck. It makes me anxious, emotional, depressed in addition to temporarily large-boobed, itchy, sleepy, and tender-gummed.
My point is that your wife sounds like she feels alone and trapped and has the weight of the world on her shoulders. I think she would not like to feel shitty. She may need the love and care and support to be strong enough to see other docs, try new meds, etc.
If it's way past that and you're so resentful about her moodiness and outbursts that you think it's so ingrained in her character and you don't care about her anymore, then I guess you have your answer.
posted by discopolo at 11:02 AM on May 2, 2013 [22 favorites]
It sounds to me like you've already decided she won't change.
What I hear in your question and follow ups is not caring about her or how she's feeling or caring about your relationship, but just that you want confirmation that she's an unreasonable witch/harpy who will never change and is using a "PMS" card to make you feel bad.
I'm not getting that"I'm really worried about my wife and I really want to help her feel better. How?" sense. I'm getting a "Confirm how I'm married to a terrible abuser because PMS isn't real and is just an excuse women use to verbally abuse their spouses/partners."
If the latter is the case, let me confirm to you that PMS can be a terrible mindfuck. It makes me anxious, emotional, depressed in addition to temporarily large-boobed, itchy, sleepy, and tender-gummed.
My point is that your wife sounds like she feels alone and trapped and has the weight of the world on her shoulders. I think she would not like to feel shitty. She may need the love and care and support to be strong enough to see other docs, try new meds, etc.
If it's way past that and you're so resentful about her moodiness and outbursts that you think it's so ingrained in her character and you don't care about her anymore, then I guess you have your answer.
posted by discopolo at 11:02 AM on May 2, 2013 [22 favorites]
She could probably stand to go to a doctor, but the two of you could definitely stand to go to couples counseling.
If your wife was generally sweet and kind and giving and loving for most of the month and then turned into the Hulk just before her period, I'd say sure, this is maybe PMDD (and I still wouldn't rule it out). But we come to the matter of what she's like during the rest of the month:
I don't think she'll ever see her PMS-fueled verbal and emotional abusiveness as problems that need to be solved.
I think to some extent her behavior can be seen as a magnified version of her already temperamental and moody nature, but to an extent that becomes very hard for me to accept even when knowing it's temporary.
I don't think the PMS-related behavior represents an abrupt switch from what she's usually like. It sounds like she's generally temperamental and moody, and does not have a lot of patience with you. Whether that's just what she's like, or if it's something to do with your respective interactions, I have no idea and it's why I'm suggesting couples counseling.
Anyway, it sounds like she treats you like this as a baseline, and then a couple days out of the month, she's also dealing with cramps or bloating or hormones or some or all of the above, and the already small amount of patience she has goes out the window. This is when her frustrations boil over.
See, if she were drastically different during the non-PMS parts of the month, I expect she might feel bad enough about it to apologize or at least talk about it or work with you on a solution. She might make some apologies for threatening to move out. But she doesn't. Instead of relations returning to normal, they're returning to a simmer instead of a rolling boil.
You've already said she's not someone who takes initiative in fixing issues like this, and you don't think she'd ever talk to a doctor about it. About two years ago, you described issues with your wife as follows:
her excessive moodiness, total lack of interest in physical intimacy, and general verbally hostile and abusive ways
This was two years ago, and if it's the way you say it is, it hasn't really changed since then. It sounds like the two of you have built up a fair bit of resentment between you and let it fester.
You have the right to tell her that the way she acts at these times is not acceptable, regardless of what's going on with her hormonally. I also suggest you include the fact that you love her, you love being with her, and you want to work on these things together so that the conflicts don't happen. And I don't think the two of you are necessarily in a great position to handle this yourselves without any outside help, so it's probably time to talk about couples counseling. The alternative is that this hole keeps getting deeper, which shouldn't happen, because I promise you that it doesn't need to be like this.
posted by FAMOUS MONSTER at 11:27 AM on May 2, 2013 [11 favorites]
If your wife was generally sweet and kind and giving and loving for most of the month and then turned into the Hulk just before her period, I'd say sure, this is maybe PMDD (and I still wouldn't rule it out). But we come to the matter of what she's like during the rest of the month:
I don't think she'll ever see her PMS-fueled verbal and emotional abusiveness as problems that need to be solved.
I think to some extent her behavior can be seen as a magnified version of her already temperamental and moody nature, but to an extent that becomes very hard for me to accept even when knowing it's temporary.
I don't think the PMS-related behavior represents an abrupt switch from what she's usually like. It sounds like she's generally temperamental and moody, and does not have a lot of patience with you. Whether that's just what she's like, or if it's something to do with your respective interactions, I have no idea and it's why I'm suggesting couples counseling.
Anyway, it sounds like she treats you like this as a baseline, and then a couple days out of the month, she's also dealing with cramps or bloating or hormones or some or all of the above, and the already small amount of patience she has goes out the window. This is when her frustrations boil over.
See, if she were drastically different during the non-PMS parts of the month, I expect she might feel bad enough about it to apologize or at least talk about it or work with you on a solution. She might make some apologies for threatening to move out. But she doesn't. Instead of relations returning to normal, they're returning to a simmer instead of a rolling boil.
You've already said she's not someone who takes initiative in fixing issues like this, and you don't think she'd ever talk to a doctor about it. About two years ago, you described issues with your wife as follows:
her excessive moodiness, total lack of interest in physical intimacy, and general verbally hostile and abusive ways
This was two years ago, and if it's the way you say it is, it hasn't really changed since then. It sounds like the two of you have built up a fair bit of resentment between you and let it fester.
You have the right to tell her that the way she acts at these times is not acceptable, regardless of what's going on with her hormonally. I also suggest you include the fact that you love her, you love being with her, and you want to work on these things together so that the conflicts don't happen. And I don't think the two of you are necessarily in a great position to handle this yourselves without any outside help, so it's probably time to talk about couples counseling. The alternative is that this hole keeps getting deeper, which shouldn't happen, because I promise you that it doesn't need to be like this.
posted by FAMOUS MONSTER at 11:27 AM on May 2, 2013 [11 favorites]
Alright, I pretty much agree with people here. She needs to get checked out for any sort of hormonal imbalance. Sometimes, with things like PMDD, or other mood imbalances, people just reallly have a hard time controlling their anger. However she is not treating you okay and needs to be your partner and be working on this issue equally.
Part one:
You need to be understanding. Be aware if you snap back. For instance, some of the times I'm grouchy and snap at my husband, he doesn't realize how condescending he was talking to me in the first place.
Now I am NOT saying she is right OR that you do that. Even if she is getting help you may need to help her or focus on your tone. Sometimes my husband thinks he is being kind, when really he is being snippy too.
Example. I was grouchy last night, was going to take a bath in the master bathroom when my husband was getting into bed. Flipped on the bathroom light to make sure my towels were in there. My husband said, "Um, you're going to turn off the bedroom light right?" - Really condescending. So I responded, "Uh, yeah I am, I'm not stupid." I said it pissy but half-joking. He flipped and said I was snipping at him and how nicely he asked me to turn the light off. He basically didn't ask nicely but put it all on me. Nice would have been, "Can you please turn off the light for me?"
Part two:
If she is getting help, and is aware of this, she needs to be helping more with it. When I have a really irritable day (MAYBE one day of the month, but sometimes it has to do with stress too.) I will warn my husband and flat out say, "I am sorry if I snap at you today. Please be patient with me. I am reallllly fucking irritable right now." And then I do my best to take a breath and not be annoyed at him. But usually a warning will make sure he tries to be calm with me too.
Part three:
Put your foot down. If she is flat out not helping, not getting checked out, not giving you warnings, not seeing the light when she's not PMSing, and you have tried watching your tone, then let her flat out know you have tried everything and it's not okay.
You need to say, Look, I have asked for you to try these things or done such and such to help, and you have not been helping. And then lay out how it's going to be. If that means anytime she is grouchy like that, you flat out walk away, then walk away. You need to do it until she gets it. I think you should try some support methods (try the carrot before the stick.)
posted by Crystalinne at 11:29 AM on May 2, 2013 [1 favorite]
Part one:
You need to be understanding. Be aware if you snap back. For instance, some of the times I'm grouchy and snap at my husband, he doesn't realize how condescending he was talking to me in the first place.
Now I am NOT saying she is right OR that you do that. Even if she is getting help you may need to help her or focus on your tone. Sometimes my husband thinks he is being kind, when really he is being snippy too.
Example. I was grouchy last night, was going to take a bath in the master bathroom when my husband was getting into bed. Flipped on the bathroom light to make sure my towels were in there. My husband said, "Um, you're going to turn off the bedroom light right?" - Really condescending. So I responded, "Uh, yeah I am, I'm not stupid." I said it pissy but half-joking. He flipped and said I was snipping at him and how nicely he asked me to turn the light off. He basically didn't ask nicely but put it all on me. Nice would have been, "Can you please turn off the light for me?"
Part two:
If she is getting help, and is aware of this, she needs to be helping more with it. When I have a really irritable day (MAYBE one day of the month, but sometimes it has to do with stress too.) I will warn my husband and flat out say, "I am sorry if I snap at you today. Please be patient with me. I am reallllly fucking irritable right now." And then I do my best to take a breath and not be annoyed at him. But usually a warning will make sure he tries to be calm with me too.
Part three:
Put your foot down. If she is flat out not helping, not getting checked out, not giving you warnings, not seeing the light when she's not PMSing, and you have tried watching your tone, then let her flat out know you have tried everything and it's not okay.
You need to say, Look, I have asked for you to try these things or done such and such to help, and you have not been helping. And then lay out how it's going to be. If that means anytime she is grouchy like that, you flat out walk away, then walk away. You need to do it until she gets it. I think you should try some support methods (try the carrot before the stick.)
posted by Crystalinne at 11:29 AM on May 2, 2013 [1 favorite]
This isn't about your wife's hormones, it is about the way you interact with each other.
Your personal attitude(s) about what is happening and why are not helping, as you've likely noticed. Together, you NEED to go to couples counseling immediately so that you can learn how to communicate with each other when moments are difficult.
I believe what you are both looking for is a counselor that specializes in non-violent communication. Despite the silly name, this is a technique that will help you problem solve issues together without things blowing up when things are intense.
You've got to own your side of this situation, too. Commit to get the counseling together.
You are part of a TEAM. Your team is having problems and needs to learn new skills and execute some new strategies, especially now that you have that new team member,
I think this becomes about your wife's hormones after you guys start successfully implementing the techniques you learn in therapy with each other and if your wife is then still having troubles with irritation turning into rage.
posted by jbenben at 11:35 AM on May 2, 2013 [10 favorites]
Your personal attitude(s) about what is happening and why are not helping, as you've likely noticed. Together, you NEED to go to couples counseling immediately so that you can learn how to communicate with each other when moments are difficult.
I believe what you are both looking for is a counselor that specializes in non-violent communication. Despite the silly name, this is a technique that will help you problem solve issues together without things blowing up when things are intense.
You've got to own your side of this situation, too. Commit to get the counseling together.
You are part of a TEAM. Your team is having problems and needs to learn new skills and execute some new strategies, especially now that you have that new team member,
I think this becomes about your wife's hormones after you guys start successfully implementing the techniques you learn in therapy with each other and if your wife is then still having troubles with irritation turning into rage.
posted by jbenben at 11:35 AM on May 2, 2013 [10 favorites]
I have diagnosed PMDD and take a week to two weeks' worth of Prozac monthly so that I am less of a total lunatic. As bad as I am, have been, and probably will be in the future, it would not be acceptable for me to be verbally abusive to my partner or say things like 'I'm going to move out' and certainly never to say it in front of our kid. If I were to act like that, 'apology' wouldn't really even reflect how sorry I'd be. We treat the PMDD as a medical issue and a logistical concern and try to avoid extra stresses on me during that time, get to sleep on time, and try not do things like buy 3 for 1 bags of Doritos.
I agree with those above who said it sounds like you have may some deeper issues in your marriage, and your (understandable) anger at this situation is coming out as you write about the situation. It sounds like you need (as a couple) some help.
posted by A Terrible Llama at 12:01 PM on May 2, 2013 [1 favorite]
I agree with those above who said it sounds like you have may some deeper issues in your marriage, and your (understandable) anger at this situation is coming out as you write about the situation. It sounds like you need (as a couple) some help.
posted by A Terrible Llama at 12:01 PM on May 2, 2013 [1 favorite]
I just want to say that my parents, particularly my mother, threatened to move out pretty frequently and fought like cats and dogs. It fucking sucked. However, I wouldn't say they were verbally abusive to each other - they just had a terrible marriage and couldn't communicate at all. They get along a lot better now. (I think they went to counseling but we don't talk about these things).
What's that song? There ain't no good guy. There ain't no bad guy. There's only you and me and we just disagree.
It's possible that your wife is just an awful person, but please consider that you guys are in a marriage together and that she's not acting this way in a vacuum.
posted by ablazingsaddle at 12:05 PM on May 2, 2013 [4 favorites]
What's that song? There ain't no good guy. There ain't no bad guy. There's only you and me and we just disagree.
It's possible that your wife is just an awful person, but please consider that you guys are in a marriage together and that she's not acting this way in a vacuum.
posted by ablazingsaddle at 12:05 PM on May 2, 2013 [4 favorites]
A million excuses can't excuse a terrible thing like "I'm moving out!" both to you and in front of your daughter.
If the equivalent was said to a friend, no friend would accept this in the long run.
If this was said at the workplace to a colleague, you would not last there.
In both of these examples, society doesn't excuse PMS attributed bad behavior. A spouse (you) should be protected the same way.
This is called destructive behavior - she either doesn't care or is unaware of the consequences of her words. Secondly - your daughter is learning a valuable lesson that rage and threatening statements are OK, and they work.
Look out for the example this is giving beyond yourself.
posted by Kruger5 at 12:20 PM on May 2, 2013 [3 favorites]
If the equivalent was said to a friend, no friend would accept this in the long run.
If this was said at the workplace to a colleague, you would not last there.
In both of these examples, society doesn't excuse PMS attributed bad behavior. A spouse (you) should be protected the same way.
This is called destructive behavior - she either doesn't care or is unaware of the consequences of her words. Secondly - your daughter is learning a valuable lesson that rage and threatening statements are OK, and they work.
Look out for the example this is giving beyond yourself.
posted by Kruger5 at 12:20 PM on May 2, 2013 [3 favorites]
TLDR, PMS can be extremely difficult to cope with, can lead to untypical feelings, sensations and thoughts for the duration, which in turn can result in untypical and negative reactions. However, REACTIONS can and should be managed, plus there is enough in your post to make me think there are issues even without your wife’s PMS.
I’m writing as someone with occasionally extreme PMS. Here is my experience – a very wide range, most of what I am saying is rarely felt at high intensity, and much of it happens infrequently:
* Pain. Every second month or so, my periods are really painful. Every third or forth month the pain is excruciating. All I can do for a day is curl up in bed lying on my side, breeth shallowly ‘cause full breaths make the pain unbearable, and stuff myself full of painkillers (they hardly work) or alcohol (works at least in the sense that it sends me to sleep). Most months the pain is manageable, but I still live in fear that time of the month. Imagine the worst pain you ever felt in your life, and that once a month you wait to see if it is coming back. The shittiest kind of suspense.
* Sensory weirdness. Again, a few months a year I’ll have strange sensations when I’m PMS-ing. I cannot deal with the dark (though I normally sleep in a pitch black room) – it feels heavy, like an actual thing pressing against me. Smells are vile and make me nauseous (any smells). Noises I feel like smells, not in the sense that I have some synesthetic experience, but in the sense that they actually make me nauseous in the way smells do. My skin is much more sensitive, for example I experience someone passing in front of me at a distance of 3 meters as though I can feel the air-currents as a sensation on my skin, like standing in the wind. I never have such sensations otherwise. When the reaction is not so violent that I actually need to remove myself, I can become entirely angry with the sensory overload from being next to someone who eats, for example. Chewing noises! Food smells! The “aura” of their body crushed against my skin! It feels incredibly invasive, like an actual physical assault.
* Emotions. I don’t quite know how to explain this, but there are times when the fact that my emotions are based on bodily reactions (and feed back into the body) sits much closer to the surface than normally. It is almost as though emotions, physical sensations and thoughts lose whatever makes me normally experience them differently and become as one. In general I feel much more undifferentiated. On a more positive note, it’s at such times that I’ve keenly felt life on this planet as a bitter-sweet destiny shared by all living things. Trivialities turn into instant meditations on the human condition. In terms of negative feelings, I also feel much more permeable in a scary way, as per the above, and am also less able than normal to differentiate, too. This means that I might get as upset about some minor perceived transgression as I normally would about a really bad thing. It’s as though I swapped minds with someone else without getting the back stories - so I’m having an internal reaction which remains entirely opaque as to the reasons. I might start crying, triggered by something entirely mundane; I might have a fit of terror (that adrenaline rush which feels like a stab in the heart) for no apparent reason – I’m not even remembering a scary situation, etc.
* What with the pain, the weird sensations, the weird dissolution of self etc I feel kind of besieged, so it is much more likely for everything to become much more personal. In general though, I’ll be more snippy, irascible, churlish, cry easily or get inordinately angry (with myself, others, or nothing in particular), get frustrated much more easily, feel exuberant and then exhausted, my mind works slower and feels wooly, I feel easily overwhelmed, become hyperbolic, find it much harder than normal to deal even with trivial things, find things problematic which normally don’t even raise an eyebrow etc.
* As MiC said above, when someone is engaged in seriously boundary-pushing behavior, that can lead to extreme reactions, including, on one occasion long ago, self-harm, especially if there is a history.
Etc. As I said, mostly, generally PMS times are mellower versions of the above, but with occasional peaks. When things are bad and I get some of these symptoms at above average intensity (that is about 2 – 4 days a year), I’m with your wife: for me the only solution is to withdraw and stay away from other humans, possibly with a bottle of strong schnapps. Nonetheless, as people have said above, you learn to limit the negative impact this experience has on others (and on the sufferer as well, actually, there are a lot of self-soothing methods which I picked up and which do help). The least of these damage limitation techniques is simply to apologize. Or warn the other person. Or learn other techniques, such as anger and frustration management techniques, so that one of the most destructive behavioral issues is under control (I know that being overly emotional is annoying to lots of people too, but it does not have the same impact as unbridled and seemingly irrational anger).
Having said all this, I’m with the people who see wider issues here than just the PMS. If the regular atmosphere in your household is one of tensions because your wife is moody and temperamental in general whilst you are conflict-avoidant but resentful, something is not right overall. I' d also say that your wife scapegoating you for what she may be feeling as part of her period is not OK. After my litany of “experiences”, the worst complaints I ever got were that I am a bit jumpy and grumpy, or withdrawn, and that’s also the worst I would say of all of my other female friends (compared to their usual selves), even though I know that some of them also have similar experiences.
posted by miorita at 12:25 PM on May 2, 2013 [6 favorites]
I’m writing as someone with occasionally extreme PMS. Here is my experience – a very wide range, most of what I am saying is rarely felt at high intensity, and much of it happens infrequently:
* Pain. Every second month or so, my periods are really painful. Every third or forth month the pain is excruciating. All I can do for a day is curl up in bed lying on my side, breeth shallowly ‘cause full breaths make the pain unbearable, and stuff myself full of painkillers (they hardly work) or alcohol (works at least in the sense that it sends me to sleep). Most months the pain is manageable, but I still live in fear that time of the month. Imagine the worst pain you ever felt in your life, and that once a month you wait to see if it is coming back. The shittiest kind of suspense.
* Sensory weirdness. Again, a few months a year I’ll have strange sensations when I’m PMS-ing. I cannot deal with the dark (though I normally sleep in a pitch black room) – it feels heavy, like an actual thing pressing against me. Smells are vile and make me nauseous (any smells). Noises I feel like smells, not in the sense that I have some synesthetic experience, but in the sense that they actually make me nauseous in the way smells do. My skin is much more sensitive, for example I experience someone passing in front of me at a distance of 3 meters as though I can feel the air-currents as a sensation on my skin, like standing in the wind. I never have such sensations otherwise. When the reaction is not so violent that I actually need to remove myself, I can become entirely angry with the sensory overload from being next to someone who eats, for example. Chewing noises! Food smells! The “aura” of their body crushed against my skin! It feels incredibly invasive, like an actual physical assault.
* Emotions. I don’t quite know how to explain this, but there are times when the fact that my emotions are based on bodily reactions (and feed back into the body) sits much closer to the surface than normally. It is almost as though emotions, physical sensations and thoughts lose whatever makes me normally experience them differently and become as one. In general I feel much more undifferentiated. On a more positive note, it’s at such times that I’ve keenly felt life on this planet as a bitter-sweet destiny shared by all living things. Trivialities turn into instant meditations on the human condition. In terms of negative feelings, I also feel much more permeable in a scary way, as per the above, and am also less able than normal to differentiate, too. This means that I might get as upset about some minor perceived transgression as I normally would about a really bad thing. It’s as though I swapped minds with someone else without getting the back stories - so I’m having an internal reaction which remains entirely opaque as to the reasons. I might start crying, triggered by something entirely mundane; I might have a fit of terror (that adrenaline rush which feels like a stab in the heart) for no apparent reason – I’m not even remembering a scary situation, etc.
* What with the pain, the weird sensations, the weird dissolution of self etc I feel kind of besieged, so it is much more likely for everything to become much more personal. In general though, I’ll be more snippy, irascible, churlish, cry easily or get inordinately angry (with myself, others, or nothing in particular), get frustrated much more easily, feel exuberant and then exhausted, my mind works slower and feels wooly, I feel easily overwhelmed, become hyperbolic, find it much harder than normal to deal even with trivial things, find things problematic which normally don’t even raise an eyebrow etc.
* As MiC said above, when someone is engaged in seriously boundary-pushing behavior, that can lead to extreme reactions, including, on one occasion long ago, self-harm, especially if there is a history.
Etc. As I said, mostly, generally PMS times are mellower versions of the above, but with occasional peaks. When things are bad and I get some of these symptoms at above average intensity (that is about 2 – 4 days a year), I’m with your wife: for me the only solution is to withdraw and stay away from other humans, possibly with a bottle of strong schnapps. Nonetheless, as people have said above, you learn to limit the negative impact this experience has on others (and on the sufferer as well, actually, there are a lot of self-soothing methods which I picked up and which do help). The least of these damage limitation techniques is simply to apologize. Or warn the other person. Or learn other techniques, such as anger and frustration management techniques, so that one of the most destructive behavioral issues is under control (I know that being overly emotional is annoying to lots of people too, but it does not have the same impact as unbridled and seemingly irrational anger).
Having said all this, I’m with the people who see wider issues here than just the PMS. If the regular atmosphere in your household is one of tensions because your wife is moody and temperamental in general whilst you are conflict-avoidant but resentful, something is not right overall. I' d also say that your wife scapegoating you for what she may be feeling as part of her period is not OK. After my litany of “experiences”, the worst complaints I ever got were that I am a bit jumpy and grumpy, or withdrawn, and that’s also the worst I would say of all of my other female friends (compared to their usual selves), even though I know that some of them also have similar experiences.
posted by miorita at 12:25 PM on May 2, 2013 [6 favorites]
There was always some legitimate issue behind my fits. It was just magnified. My ex was real bad about not adequately resolving problems, so PMS meant my bitterness about long-standing issues got thrown in his face.
THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS.
Also, everyone is freaking out about her saying she wants to move out - well, maybe she really does. Maybe she's extremely unhappy with you and she's able to squelch it down and carry on most of the time, but when her coping mechanisms and hormones aren't cooperating it all surges to the surface and bursts out at random times. That's what happens for me.
My "mood swings" are what I see as adjustments to my mental chemistry that affect my degrees of response and my degrees of coping ability, NOT that change my underlying personality or happiness. So if I'm generally happy with my life, PMS makes me a bit sulky and glum and irritable, but I'm not going to go on a murderous rampage without provocation, know what I mean? If I'm generally miserable with life, though, PMS will send me into that murderous rage almost invariably - because I have ABSOLUTELY ZERO FUCKING BULLSHIT TOLERANCE.
What I'd see here, is yeah, your wife's specific example with the carseat was irrational. But perhaps her beef with you not helping, or lazing around before helping, or giving a sorta eyerolling whatever-kind of response to her requests for help, or viewing her as a general nag and nuisance, are probably real. So she asks you to do something, you give her your standard sorry-can't-right-now-brush-her-off response, and she blows a gasket. In this case, yeah, you were justified, but the bigger issue may be that she feels like you blow her off/invalidate her requests and feelings on a regular basis, and now is the time when she is able to let out all that steam full-stop.
posted by celtalitha at 12:27 PM on May 2, 2013 [17 favorites]
THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS.
Also, everyone is freaking out about her saying she wants to move out - well, maybe she really does. Maybe she's extremely unhappy with you and she's able to squelch it down and carry on most of the time, but when her coping mechanisms and hormones aren't cooperating it all surges to the surface and bursts out at random times. That's what happens for me.
My "mood swings" are what I see as adjustments to my mental chemistry that affect my degrees of response and my degrees of coping ability, NOT that change my underlying personality or happiness. So if I'm generally happy with my life, PMS makes me a bit sulky and glum and irritable, but I'm not going to go on a murderous rampage without provocation, know what I mean? If I'm generally miserable with life, though, PMS will send me into that murderous rage almost invariably - because I have ABSOLUTELY ZERO FUCKING BULLSHIT TOLERANCE.
What I'd see here, is yeah, your wife's specific example with the carseat was irrational. But perhaps her beef with you not helping, or lazing around before helping, or giving a sorta eyerolling whatever-kind of response to her requests for help, or viewing her as a general nag and nuisance, are probably real. So she asks you to do something, you give her your standard sorry-can't-right-now-brush-her-off response, and she blows a gasket. In this case, yeah, you were justified, but the bigger issue may be that she feels like you blow her off/invalidate her requests and feelings on a regular basis, and now is the time when she is able to let out all that steam full-stop.
posted by celtalitha at 12:27 PM on May 2, 2013 [17 favorites]
Based on your follow-up, I think she needs therapy. Maybe you both need therapy. But her responses to stress aren't normal and her lack of interest in resolving it is also abnormal. If not for the sake of the relationship or your own health and comfort, then certainly for the well-being of your daughter.
posted by batmonkey at 1:01 PM on May 2, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by batmonkey at 1:01 PM on May 2, 2013 [1 favorite]
He's not blaming it on PMS - his wife is.
IMO "you never help with anything" and "I'm going to have my brother do it, just forget about it", doesn't sound unreasonable or irrational at all in the context of a bad relationship, and it's certainly not hostile.
posted by headnsouth at 1:10 PM on May 2, 2013 [4 favorites]
"But another rational side to me knows that she's in a hormonally-altered state and I should just stay clear, ignore it, and it will pass. .... a day or two later, PMS passes/mellows and she is 100% fine with us picking up this thing together next weekend .... I don't think she'll ever see her PMS-fueled verbal and emotional abusiveness as problems that need to be solved."He's blaming his wife's anger on PMS. Honest and open communication is key and it doesn't sound at all like the OP is doing that. "I've suggested gingerly at non-PMS times that she go to the doctor." That is not communication, that is avoiding the issue altogether. That kind of passive non-engagement is crazymaking. How many times did the OP demur on one request or another before the wife's "unreasonable, and in fact irrational, hostile tirade"?
IMO "you never help with anything" and "I'm going to have my brother do it, just forget about it", doesn't sound unreasonable or irrational at all in the context of a bad relationship, and it's certainly not hostile.
posted by headnsouth at 1:10 PM on May 2, 2013 [4 favorites]
To answer the actual questions in your post:
1) Your wife's PMS does not sound extreme, it sounds garden variety. (She gets irritable.) It does sounds like she's frustrated and angry with you, yells at you out of exasperation, and that you both have broken-down communication skills.
2) Other guys "handle this" by either leaving their relationship or identifying what they need and insisting on bringing it about through communication, medical help, or therapy. Or, alternately, suffering through it for the duration of their marriage.
The way you've framed your question (and what you've said in your follow-ups) implies that your wife's two sets of issues-- her PMS and her generally not being hot on you as a partner-- are actually just one bizarre wifely issue, and that men have to "put up" with their wives' frustrations the same way they have to put up with the weather. This is doubly false because if it's abuse, you do not have to put up with it, and if it's not abuse, then the only solution is to examine your relationship with her and try to fix it-- you can't "handle it" on your own. (It may be a blend of the two and it's up to you to diagnose that, preferably with a therapist. It's also possible that if you are being very passive and avoidant that she experiences that behavior as emotional abuse.) If your wife blames it all on PMS, I suspect she's ashamed of the angry way she expresses her frustrations with you, and would rather erase it all than resolve it with you.
First of all, men do not have to put up with abuse. There is no "handling" it, do not normalize it like it's OK, par-for-the-course female behavior. This is setting you up for an unhappy self-martyring situation and pathologizing women, like they are irrational emotional evil beings who need to be "dealt" with. They are not, and you do not.
Second of all, if your wife's frustrations can be separated from the issue of PMS-- for instance, she doesn't think you're very helpful at times, and I'm willing to bet that despite her calmness other times of the months, she has some underlying issues with you. These can be dealt with in therapy. If you believe that she is unfixable and will only cause you woe, LEAVE HER. If you feel that your relationship is broken on both sides and there is fighting that needs to be addressed (that isn't 100% her fault), go to therapy and work it out. If she won't, consider leaving. An unhappy marriage is not particularly good for children.
Asking AskMe how to "handle" emotional and verbal abuse is not going to get you any good answers because there are no good ways to handle it. If it's abuse, it's abuse, and you should leave. You should not assume that abuse from a woman is a part of her nature and it is man's burden to "handle it." Those assumptions about men and women are unhealthy.
There is no magical "manly" key to handling your woman. There are only healthy and unhealthy relationships.
posted by stoneandstar at 1:16 PM on May 2, 2013 [27 favorites]
1) Your wife's PMS does not sound extreme, it sounds garden variety. (She gets irritable.) It does sounds like she's frustrated and angry with you, yells at you out of exasperation, and that you both have broken-down communication skills.
2) Other guys "handle this" by either leaving their relationship or identifying what they need and insisting on bringing it about through communication, medical help, or therapy. Or, alternately, suffering through it for the duration of their marriage.
The way you've framed your question (and what you've said in your follow-ups) implies that your wife's two sets of issues-- her PMS and her generally not being hot on you as a partner-- are actually just one bizarre wifely issue, and that men have to "put up" with their wives' frustrations the same way they have to put up with the weather. This is doubly false because if it's abuse, you do not have to put up with it, and if it's not abuse, then the only solution is to examine your relationship with her and try to fix it-- you can't "handle it" on your own. (It may be a blend of the two and it's up to you to diagnose that, preferably with a therapist. It's also possible that if you are being very passive and avoidant that she experiences that behavior as emotional abuse.) If your wife blames it all on PMS, I suspect she's ashamed of the angry way she expresses her frustrations with you, and would rather erase it all than resolve it with you.
First of all, men do not have to put up with abuse. There is no "handling" it, do not normalize it like it's OK, par-for-the-course female behavior. This is setting you up for an unhappy self-martyring situation and pathologizing women, like they are irrational emotional evil beings who need to be "dealt" with. They are not, and you do not.
Second of all, if your wife's frustrations can be separated from the issue of PMS-- for instance, she doesn't think you're very helpful at times, and I'm willing to bet that despite her calmness other times of the months, she has some underlying issues with you. These can be dealt with in therapy. If you believe that she is unfixable and will only cause you woe, LEAVE HER. If you feel that your relationship is broken on both sides and there is fighting that needs to be addressed (that isn't 100% her fault), go to therapy and work it out. If she won't, consider leaving. An unhappy marriage is not particularly good for children.
Asking AskMe how to "handle" emotional and verbal abuse is not going to get you any good answers because there are no good ways to handle it. If it's abuse, it's abuse, and you should leave. You should not assume that abuse from a woman is a part of her nature and it is man's burden to "handle it." Those assumptions about men and women are unhealthy.
There is no magical "manly" key to handling your woman. There are only healthy and unhealthy relationships.
posted by stoneandstar at 1:16 PM on May 2, 2013 [27 favorites]
You cannot handle other people. You can only handle yourself. Here's one possible way to handle yourself going forward:
1. During a quiet, non-abusive week, sit her down and explain that you've thought a lot about your own behavior when she's "PMSing" (or whatever you two call it), and that you think you're making things worse by failing to set proper boundaries. Explain that the next time she treats you that way, you're not going to accept it, and that she should be prepared for that. She may agree that it is a good idea, or she may get angry and scream and storm out of the room, you can't control that -- but you've made it clear that you see a problem in your behavior and shared the first step you're going to take addressing it.
2. The next time she does it, set a boundary. Perhaps you simply say "I'm not comfortable with you shouting at me in front of our daughter. If you don't stop, she and I are going to walk away until you calm down" and she does, or she doesn't and so you take your daughter's hand and walk away. Perhaps she calls you and starts yelling, and you say "This conversation will not be constructive if you shout at me. If you don't stop, I will hang up and we can talk later" and she does, or she doesn't and you hang up and walk away from the phone. Again, you're making no attempt to control her; you're simply telling her what you're not comfortable with, and what you'll do if it continues, and then following through on it.
Will this fix anything? Probably not. Here's what it will do, though: first, it will give you a sense that you're taking control of the situation, and second, it will give her an opportunity to react both when she's abusing you and when she's not. If her reactions are reasonable (albeit potentially still abusive) then you can work from there, and if they're unreasonable (the abuse escalates significantly, such as her hitting you when you try to walk away with your daughter or calling your boss when you won't take her call) then you know that you're really dealing with something dangerous, and you can take steps. And hey, it might actually solve the problem, if she's a caring and reasonable person who needs stronger boundaries.
Good luck.
posted by davejay at 1:37 PM on May 2, 2013 [2 favorites]
1. During a quiet, non-abusive week, sit her down and explain that you've thought a lot about your own behavior when she's "PMSing" (or whatever you two call it), and that you think you're making things worse by failing to set proper boundaries. Explain that the next time she treats you that way, you're not going to accept it, and that she should be prepared for that. She may agree that it is a good idea, or she may get angry and scream and storm out of the room, you can't control that -- but you've made it clear that you see a problem in your behavior and shared the first step you're going to take addressing it.
2. The next time she does it, set a boundary. Perhaps you simply say "I'm not comfortable with you shouting at me in front of our daughter. If you don't stop, she and I are going to walk away until you calm down" and she does, or she doesn't and so you take your daughter's hand and walk away. Perhaps she calls you and starts yelling, and you say "This conversation will not be constructive if you shout at me. If you don't stop, I will hang up and we can talk later" and she does, or she doesn't and you hang up and walk away from the phone. Again, you're making no attempt to control her; you're simply telling her what you're not comfortable with, and what you'll do if it continues, and then following through on it.
Will this fix anything? Probably not. Here's what it will do, though: first, it will give you a sense that you're taking control of the situation, and second, it will give her an opportunity to react both when she's abusing you and when she's not. If her reactions are reasonable (albeit potentially still abusive) then you can work from there, and if they're unreasonable (the abuse escalates significantly, such as her hitting you when you try to walk away with your daughter or calling your boss when you won't take her call) then you know that you're really dealing with something dangerous, and you can take steps. And hey, it might actually solve the problem, if she's a caring and reasonable person who needs stronger boundaries.
Good luck.
posted by davejay at 1:37 PM on May 2, 2013 [2 favorites]
No matter how a person is feeling, there is no reason to treat anyone (especially someone you supposedly love) poorly, and then act like it never happened. We all have bad days where we might not act in a way that we'd be proud of, but if we want to maintain the relationship, at the very least we are expected to apologize for our behavior, and try not to repeat it.
Over the last few years I have been dealing with a family member who has had a lot of pain issues. He kept putting band-aids on the issues, so to speak, not seeing the doctor and not really doing anything to resolve the issues. He would lash out at me often, and rather than apologize he would try to rationalize it by saying he was in pain. As many have said above, he had legitimate reasons that he was irritated with me during those episodes, but constantly being in pain put his behavior over the top.
I am generally a patient person who doesn't hold grudges, but having to be around someone who is always on edge and angry and seemingly deliberately unpleasant made me act unpleasant too, and our relationship was not good.
One day I was trying to do something very kind for him and he lashed out at me right in the middle of it and told me to leave. I did leave, but I called him an hour later and told him that his behavior was no longer acceptable, and that if he wanted to maintain the relationship I expected him to do something real about his physical afflictions immediately. Like, when I hang up the phone with you, you will immediately call the doctor and arrange an appointment to try to get these issues sorted out once and for all.
He is still on the journey of trying to relieve the physical issues. In the meantime we have started addressing our interpersonal issues in a meaningful way. All of that work has helped both of us be much nicer and much more patient with one another.
I think your wife needs to sit down and look at your life together as whole, at your daughter's life and the examples she's being taught, and then be honest about what she wants for her daughter, for your family, and for herself as an individual.
If she can honestly say that she wants to keep your family together, then insist that she starting dealing with these physical issues immediately, for all of your sakes. If she doesn't want to keep the family intact, well, that's another bridge to cross.
But one way or another, at least you will know what direction you are going in.
posted by vignettist at 1:45 PM on May 2, 2013 [2 favorites]
Over the last few years I have been dealing with a family member who has had a lot of pain issues. He kept putting band-aids on the issues, so to speak, not seeing the doctor and not really doing anything to resolve the issues. He would lash out at me often, and rather than apologize he would try to rationalize it by saying he was in pain. As many have said above, he had legitimate reasons that he was irritated with me during those episodes, but constantly being in pain put his behavior over the top.
I am generally a patient person who doesn't hold grudges, but having to be around someone who is always on edge and angry and seemingly deliberately unpleasant made me act unpleasant too, and our relationship was not good.
One day I was trying to do something very kind for him and he lashed out at me right in the middle of it and told me to leave. I did leave, but I called him an hour later and told him that his behavior was no longer acceptable, and that if he wanted to maintain the relationship I expected him to do something real about his physical afflictions immediately. Like, when I hang up the phone with you, you will immediately call the doctor and arrange an appointment to try to get these issues sorted out once and for all.
He is still on the journey of trying to relieve the physical issues. In the meantime we have started addressing our interpersonal issues in a meaningful way. All of that work has helped both of us be much nicer and much more patient with one another.
I think your wife needs to sit down and look at your life together as whole, at your daughter's life and the examples she's being taught, and then be honest about what she wants for her daughter, for your family, and for herself as an individual.
If she can honestly say that she wants to keep your family together, then insist that she starting dealing with these physical issues immediately, for all of your sakes. If she doesn't want to keep the family intact, well, that's another bridge to cross.
But one way or another, at least you will know what direction you are going in.
posted by vignettist at 1:45 PM on May 2, 2013 [2 favorites]
doesn't sound unreasonable or irrational at all in the context of a bad relationship, and it's certainly not hostile.
Nothing does if you go out of your way to make excuses and justifications for it. If one is being abused, before any resolution the very first thing is for the abusing party to stop the abuse - one should not attempt to explain that away by pointing to potentially other bad behavior.
posted by Kruger5 at 1:52 PM on May 2, 2013 [2 favorites]
Nothing does if you go out of your way to make excuses and justifications for it. If one is being abused, before any resolution the very first thing is for the abusing party to stop the abuse - one should not attempt to explain that away by pointing to potentially other bad behavior.
posted by Kruger5 at 1:52 PM on May 2, 2013 [2 favorites]
Being occasionally irritable is not the same as being abusive. It doesnt sound like fun by any means, but its really downplaying the systematic evisceration that constitutes abuse to make the comparison. Developing a slightly thicker skin about tone will help keep these incidents from escalating. Meeting anger with more anger never works. Try to have some empathy for her even in those moments. Tell her that it sounds like she is feeling pretty awful and that you are going to disengage since it isnt productive. Give her a hug. Give her some care. Follow up a few days later if its truly egregious/in front of the kid. Don't respond by insisting upon how unfairly you are being treated because she is just going to get more angry for not being able to express any negative feelings. Relationships should be solid enough to withstand frustration. Most people get frustrated some times and if you care about them you cut them some slack in their human, bodily imperfections. If you have an infant, the hormonal problems may be postpartum as well as pms.
posted by decathexis at 1:53 PM on May 2, 2013 [6 favorites]
posted by decathexis at 1:53 PM on May 2, 2013 [6 favorites]
from the situation you described i'm having a hard time telling how bad it really was. yes, saying "i'm moving out" is not cool at all, but "you never do anything" and "i'll have my brother do it, forget about it" aren't really verbally abusive. that is garden variety frustration and irritability if said fairly calmly. you say she is having an emotional tirade but you haven't actually described how she is acting emotionally. was she yelling at the top of her lungs? did her voice drip with sarcasm and contempt? is she glaring at you? did she keep saying the same things over and over again ad naseum? what was her tone? how long did she go on about this? if she is loudly yelling these statements at you then it's another story. it does sound like her thinking wasn't very rational if she didn't understand that you couldn't get that thing to fit in the car without removing the child seat. again, that in itself is not abuse just not comprehending. the "i'm moving out" isn't acceptable. threatening to leave because you won't run an errand is not right. her not apologizing isn't right either. PMS isn't an excuse to treat your SO poorly, but from what you've written i'm not convinced her behavior is abusive as others have suggested.
posted by wildflower at 3:04 PM on May 2, 2013 [4 favorites]
posted by wildflower at 3:04 PM on May 2, 2013 [4 favorites]
I didn't get a chance to read every single response here, but here are my thoughts and I hope I'm not posting something overly repetitive.
- While I would never aim to speak for all women, I know some documentaries and articles I've read (I did my masters on the PMS legal defense in criminal cases) suggested that PMS is sometimes used as a way for women to let out their frustrations that they would have all the time, but don't have a time where they're socially allowed to express it. Obviously, there are some cases where it is more legit than that, but perhaps look into your relationship and if you both are on different pages and she's generally frustrated with you and your relationship (and her life in general) the PMS might elevate some of the feelings of annoyance she has generally.
- I believe that if she's not being verbally abusive to her boss and strangers on the street, she can control her behaviours and doesn't b/c people seem to treat their families and those closest to them the worst. Just like the rape example where people say men couldn't help it and that it's biological... no it's not! Men don't rape women in broad daylight on the street and their don't rape their coworkers/bosses at work etc. Same kind of biological arguments that suggest women can't control their biology simplify the social elements to her behaviours.
Overall... I'd look at your relationship and see if she's willing to talk about what she feels is lacking overall from your relationship and her life and see where you can work on things b/c if she's happier overall, I don't think the PMS would be as big of an issue. Maybe she'd see a counselor as a couple and the two of you can perhaps work through some strategies. Perhaps she could work on some coping strategies or breathing exercises while the two of you sort out some things that could make your lives more calm and enjoyable.
posted by DorothySmith at 3:15 PM on May 2, 2013 [2 favorites]
- While I would never aim to speak for all women, I know some documentaries and articles I've read (I did my masters on the PMS legal defense in criminal cases) suggested that PMS is sometimes used as a way for women to let out their frustrations that they would have all the time, but don't have a time where they're socially allowed to express it. Obviously, there are some cases where it is more legit than that, but perhaps look into your relationship and if you both are on different pages and she's generally frustrated with you and your relationship (and her life in general) the PMS might elevate some of the feelings of annoyance she has generally.
- I believe that if she's not being verbally abusive to her boss and strangers on the street, she can control her behaviours and doesn't b/c people seem to treat their families and those closest to them the worst. Just like the rape example where people say men couldn't help it and that it's biological... no it's not! Men don't rape women in broad daylight on the street and their don't rape their coworkers/bosses at work etc. Same kind of biological arguments that suggest women can't control their biology simplify the social elements to her behaviours.
Overall... I'd look at your relationship and see if she's willing to talk about what she feels is lacking overall from your relationship and her life and see where you can work on things b/c if she's happier overall, I don't think the PMS would be as big of an issue. Maybe she'd see a counselor as a couple and the two of you can perhaps work through some strategies. Perhaps she could work on some coping strategies or breathing exercises while the two of you sort out some things that could make your lives more calm and enjoyable.
posted by DorothySmith at 3:15 PM on May 2, 2013 [2 favorites]
Being occasionally irritable is not the same as being abusive... Developing a slightly thicker skin about tone will help keep these incidents from escalating.
I would just point out that sentiments like these are often expressed to people being abused, and can be quite destructive. This is not to say OP is being abused, but I think we should be a little bit ginger when it comes to telling people to "harden up" when it comes to situations where abuse may at play.
Dansaman, I think, as others have said, there are some quite unhealthy elements at play in your relationship with your wife, with or without menstrual cycles being involved at all. Working on those elements may not ameliorate the possible PMS issues, but it will certainly make your relationship happier and healthier in general.
Lots of posters have outlined ways of working on this. I would just add that researcher John Gottman has spoken about the four horsemen of divorce: 1. Criticism
2. Contempt
3. Defensiveness
4. Stonewalling.
The best predictor? Contempt. You have a serious problem, here, and I think you would do well to work on it - with your wife, together - outside of askmetafilter. Indeed, beyond the injunction to investigate multiple avenues, I feel like ask metafilter may only muddy the waters for you. It doesn't matter what a bunch of internet strangers think, or their guesses as to what's wrong: Something is quite wrong in your relationship; investigate it, and act on it if you wish to keep your marriage. Good luck.
posted by smoke at 4:14 PM on May 2, 2013 [4 favorites]
I would just point out that sentiments like these are often expressed to people being abused, and can be quite destructive. This is not to say OP is being abused, but I think we should be a little bit ginger when it comes to telling people to "harden up" when it comes to situations where abuse may at play.
Dansaman, I think, as others have said, there are some quite unhealthy elements at play in your relationship with your wife, with or without menstrual cycles being involved at all. Working on those elements may not ameliorate the possible PMS issues, but it will certainly make your relationship happier and healthier in general.
Lots of posters have outlined ways of working on this. I would just add that researcher John Gottman has spoken about the four horsemen of divorce: 1. Criticism
2. Contempt
3. Defensiveness
4. Stonewalling.
The best predictor? Contempt. You have a serious problem, here, and I think you would do well to work on it - with your wife, together - outside of askmetafilter. Indeed, beyond the injunction to investigate multiple avenues, I feel like ask metafilter may only muddy the waters for you. It doesn't matter what a bunch of internet strangers think, or their guesses as to what's wrong: Something is quite wrong in your relationship; investigate it, and act on it if you wish to keep your marriage. Good luck.
posted by smoke at 4:14 PM on May 2, 2013 [4 favorites]
I'm going to go way against the grain here, and suggest the next time she pitches a fit, you call her on it on the spot. No waiting until she is done PMS'ing; speak up right then and there.
"It's not OK to speak to me that way. Stop right now." Stand your ground, look her in the eye.
Repeat as necessary. If she continues to speak disrespectfully to you, then remove yourself from the situation temporarily.
Until the consequences of her behavior are such that it is more painful for her to continue than to consider modifying her behavior, she will continue as-is. And by "modifying her behavior," I mean her being willing to consider getting outside help, if she is unwilling/unable to dial down the rage-calling on her own.
Men with anger-management issues go to classes to learn to control their behavior. Women do not get a hall-pass on acting like ogres.
posted by nacho fries at 4:29 PM on May 2, 2013 [2 favorites]
"It's not OK to speak to me that way. Stop right now." Stand your ground, look her in the eye.
Repeat as necessary. If she continues to speak disrespectfully to you, then remove yourself from the situation temporarily.
Until the consequences of her behavior are such that it is more painful for her to continue than to consider modifying her behavior, she will continue as-is. And by "modifying her behavior," I mean her being willing to consider getting outside help, if she is unwilling/unable to dial down the rage-calling on her own.
Men with anger-management issues go to classes to learn to control their behavior. Women do not get a hall-pass on acting like ogres.
posted by nacho fries at 4:29 PM on May 2, 2013 [2 favorites]
I think your wife is really upset with you and you (and possibly her too) find it easier or would rather blame it on PMS than look deeper and find out what's really bothering her and sort your marriage out. After all, it's much easier to say my wife is a hormonal harpy and blame her than potentially look at your own actions to see what the real issue is. The fact that she's threatening to leave is not garden variety hormones, and the way you phrase your question is about validating this all being her fault.
She doesn't get a hall pass to be a bitch, but when she's clearly unhappy with you, you don't get a hall pass to ignore it and say she's just PMSing, what an irrational woman. Until you talk calmly about this and get to the bottom of it, whether with a counsellor or not, I don't see too much changing, you both seem to be seething with resentment. A bit of kindness on both ends would go a long way.
posted by Jubey at 4:54 PM on May 2, 2013 [11 favorites]
She doesn't get a hall pass to be a bitch, but when she's clearly unhappy with you, you don't get a hall pass to ignore it and say she's just PMSing, what an irrational woman. Until you talk calmly about this and get to the bottom of it, whether with a counsellor or not, I don't see too much changing, you both seem to be seething with resentment. A bit of kindness on both ends would go a long way.
posted by Jubey at 4:54 PM on May 2, 2013 [11 favorites]
Sounds to me like you want your wife to be wrong and you want to be the injured party. I think your collective issues are a lot deeper than her PMS behaviour. But dude, if you're not happy with your wife, just come out and say it. Man up. Stop trying to be the victimvand either leave if its unresolvable, try to resolve it, or live with it. No amount of asking whether its ok for your wife to abuse you is going to change anything about your relationship or how you feel about it, regardless of whether other mefites belive that calling it abuse is justified or not.
If you don't like something, (which you obviously don't, given how the question was worded), them you don't like it. You don't need the internet to justify your emotions for you. Accept that you don't like it, or that thete's something going on a little deeper that you're not happy about, and make a decision. Then act on it.
I expect that you want to break up with your wife and don't want to admit it.
posted by windykites at 7:46 PM on May 2, 2013 [8 favorites]
If you don't like something, (which you obviously don't, given how the question was worded), them you don't like it. You don't need the internet to justify your emotions for you. Accept that you don't like it, or that thete's something going on a little deeper that you're not happy about, and make a decision. Then act on it.
I expect that you want to break up with your wife and don't want to admit it.
posted by windykites at 7:46 PM on May 2, 2013 [8 favorites]
You don't need to put up with any behavior you don't want to. It doesn't really matter if your wife's PMS is the cause, or if she has some undiagnosed mental issues, or if she's just a jerk.
If you want it to stop, establish boundaries and enforce them. If your wife can't moderate her behavior, then start thinking about ending the marriage. I know that I wouldn't put up with it.
posted by empath at 7:49 PM on May 2, 2013
If you want it to stop, establish boundaries and enforce them. If your wife can't moderate her behavior, then start thinking about ending the marriage. I know that I wouldn't put up with it.
posted by empath at 7:49 PM on May 2, 2013
One more story for you. My PMS (I'm just going to say it exists) used to be amazing. It'd be the one day a month I was super effective as a person. I'd spontaneously clean the bathroom; make sense of the piles of papers on my desk; finish a song or even two; call all neglected family members; play hardball in a phone contract negotiation and win; enjoy lightning quick reaction time; make good use of a 10/10 libido, and go to sleep happy. (Next day = agony, not the point here, obv.)
Now that I'm, I dunno, riper: on that day, everything in my life seems profoundly wrong. My brain glitches and I miss the logical connections a frontal-lobally gifted person (or even me, on most days) catches. I know that sounds horribly retro, but my thinking is really obviously radically distorted, and it's convincing. I hate making this comparison, but it's like I'm a freaking toddler. Raw id.
Sample train of thought: "x didn't get back to me -- it's because I suck at being a friend -- maybe I'm autistic -- maybe x never liked me at all and is just keeping up appearances because they have kids now and no one else will bother -- shit, I will never have kids [don't actually want those, otherwise] -- I have been lonely MY WHOLE LIFE". None of that's true; it's an exaggeration of shades of feelings I might have on occasion, magnified 1000 times, occluding the great time x and I had just last week at dinner. But it feels 100% real.
I can't take birth control pills (stroke risk). I won't take anti-anxiety meds (long story). But the calendar thing helps slow down the crazy train. It's a pain to pay attention to that (am sure there's an app). But since I've been keeping track, I've been been able to flag myself before I go off on myself or someone else. I tell myself 'it's that time, this is why you're nutty'. I still feel like sobbing or snapping, but a little bit less, and I can introduce space between the bad thoughts, enough to warn people that I might be teary or irritable, or take some kind of coping action, like having a shower. I sometimes ask people to let me know if I say something offensive. Some may say that's shifting responsibility. I feel like I'm saving lives.
posted by nelljie at 1:03 AM on May 3, 2013 [7 favorites]
Now that I'm, I dunno, riper: on that day, everything in my life seems profoundly wrong. My brain glitches and I miss the logical connections a frontal-lobally gifted person (or even me, on most days) catches. I know that sounds horribly retro, but my thinking is really obviously radically distorted, and it's convincing. I hate making this comparison, but it's like I'm a freaking toddler. Raw id.
Sample train of thought: "x didn't get back to me -- it's because I suck at being a friend -- maybe I'm autistic -- maybe x never liked me at all and is just keeping up appearances because they have kids now and no one else will bother -- shit, I will never have kids [don't actually want those, otherwise] -- I have been lonely MY WHOLE LIFE". None of that's true; it's an exaggeration of shades of feelings I might have on occasion, magnified 1000 times, occluding the great time x and I had just last week at dinner. But it feels 100% real.
I can't take birth control pills (stroke risk). I won't take anti-anxiety meds (long story). But the calendar thing helps slow down the crazy train. It's a pain to pay attention to that (am sure there's an app). But since I've been keeping track, I've been been able to flag myself before I go off on myself or someone else. I tell myself 'it's that time, this is why you're nutty'. I still feel like sobbing or snapping, but a little bit less, and I can introduce space between the bad thoughts, enough to warn people that I might be teary or irritable, or take some kind of coping action, like having a shower. I sometimes ask people to let me know if I say something offensive. Some may say that's shifting responsibility. I feel like I'm saving lives.
posted by nelljie at 1:03 AM on May 3, 2013 [7 favorites]
About a year ago Mr. Adams were watching TV and this rerun of Roseanne came on. It was all about her suffering from PMS and I was laughing and eye-rolling at the absurdity of her over-the-top behavior. I finally said out loud "They could've tried to make this at least little believable." Mr. Adams had been straight-faced the entire time and at my remark he looked at me incredulously. "What?" I asked. "Are you kidding me?! You should only be half as erratic as Roseanne every month!" I was absolutely shocked - I would've seriously sworn up and down that I've never suffered from PMS, that my behavior never fluctuated according to my hormones. But, according to him, I get pretty....moody. Go figure. So perhaps your wife is unaware that she's being extra-abrasive. It's not pleasant for you, but unless you can somehow gently convince her to consult with a doctor (in case she needs meds for PMDD), it might be easier for you to just suck it up until she hits menopause.
posted by Oriole Adams at 1:29 AM on May 3, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by Oriole Adams at 1:29 AM on May 3, 2013 [1 favorite]
Many people have suggested that your wife may well be expressing serious frustrations with underlying problems that she can't keep bottled up quite so much when she's pmsing. I am like that too. And I have to say, when I read this
Sometimes I think one factor in her doing this is because she can get away with it. I have a very patient and mellow personality and am very good about taking care of family matters, so as her siblings would say, she's "spoiled" in a way.
It set off all kinds of alarms for me. Does your mellow personality mean that you let stuff roll off your back? Chances are VERY GOOD that she feels like you are blowing off her valid complaints -- as indeed you are with her example that "you never help with anything." That assertion is coming from somewhere and the "never" is a clue that she's full up to here about it. Instead of getting defensive, ask her where she is coming from. "Honey, you say XYZ, but I observe ABC. I don't understand what's making you feel that way." And then take her seriously.
Another question, hinted at by your ginger questioning--do you let your frustration simmer and not address YOUR problems in a straightforward and respectful way? Does your simmering resentment leak out in other ways? Can she feel your contempt oozing out, but you deny that it's there because you're such a nice guy and you'd never say anything that mean? One marriage book I like and recommend a lot explicitly says, "beware nice guys with bitchy wives". There are many cases when "nice" behavior is really NOT very nice at all.
I join the chorus suggesting that you two get in counseling, stat. She needs to own her part with moodiness and outbursts, but you would do well to open yourself to the likely situation that you're feeding into this dynamic too. It's a problem that both of you need to solve together.
posted by Sublimity at 3:27 AM on May 3, 2013 [9 favorites]
Sometimes I think one factor in her doing this is because she can get away with it. I have a very patient and mellow personality and am very good about taking care of family matters, so as her siblings would say, she's "spoiled" in a way.
It set off all kinds of alarms for me. Does your mellow personality mean that you let stuff roll off your back? Chances are VERY GOOD that she feels like you are blowing off her valid complaints -- as indeed you are with her example that "you never help with anything." That assertion is coming from somewhere and the "never" is a clue that she's full up to here about it. Instead of getting defensive, ask her where she is coming from. "Honey, you say XYZ, but I observe ABC. I don't understand what's making you feel that way." And then take her seriously.
Another question, hinted at by your ginger questioning--do you let your frustration simmer and not address YOUR problems in a straightforward and respectful way? Does your simmering resentment leak out in other ways? Can she feel your contempt oozing out, but you deny that it's there because you're such a nice guy and you'd never say anything that mean? One marriage book I like and recommend a lot explicitly says, "beware nice guys with bitchy wives". There are many cases when "nice" behavior is really NOT very nice at all.
I join the chorus suggesting that you two get in counseling, stat. She needs to own her part with moodiness and outbursts, but you would do well to open yourself to the likely situation that you're feeding into this dynamic too. It's a problem that both of you need to solve together.
posted by Sublimity at 3:27 AM on May 3, 2013 [9 favorites]
GIVE UP AND GET OUT.
If it has been like this for years and hasnt changed, it never will.
I was married for decades to a woman who firmly believed that her PMS was indeed a free pass to say whatever she thought would hurt me most. There were no boundaries for her - she would say the cruelest, most vicious things she could think of. She NEVER apologized for anything she did, no matter how far out of bounds it was. She admitted once liking it - said that it made her feel powerful, strong and in charge.
"Many people have suggested that your wife may well be expressing serious frustrations with underlying problems that she can't keep bottled up quite so much when she's pmsing"
I konw that this was part of what was going on with her. But, if I had ever screamed at her that she was a horrible wife, physically repulsive to me and that nobody would ever love her because she was a stupid fucking weakling with unresolved daddy issues (the way she did to me), everyone here would rightfully call it abuse and would counsel her to get out immediately. So:
GIVE UP AND GET OUT.
Take care of yourself, and find a partner who can work out her issues with you in an reasonable, adult manner. Go to counseling, sure. But don't stay with partners who engage in emotional abuse, regardless of why they do.
posted by The Blue Olly at 9:20 AM on May 3, 2013 [5 favorites]
If it has been like this for years and hasnt changed, it never will.
I was married for decades to a woman who firmly believed that her PMS was indeed a free pass to say whatever she thought would hurt me most. There were no boundaries for her - she would say the cruelest, most vicious things she could think of. She NEVER apologized for anything she did, no matter how far out of bounds it was. She admitted once liking it - said that it made her feel powerful, strong and in charge.
"Many people have suggested that your wife may well be expressing serious frustrations with underlying problems that she can't keep bottled up quite so much when she's pmsing"
I konw that this was part of what was going on with her. But, if I had ever screamed at her that she was a horrible wife, physically repulsive to me and that nobody would ever love her because she was a stupid fucking weakling with unresolved daddy issues (the way she did to me), everyone here would rightfully call it abuse and would counsel her to get out immediately. So:
GIVE UP AND GET OUT.
Take care of yourself, and find a partner who can work out her issues with you in an reasonable, adult manner. Go to counseling, sure. But don't stay with partners who engage in emotional abuse, regardless of why they do.
posted by The Blue Olly at 9:20 AM on May 3, 2013 [5 favorites]
Some people react to boundary-setting with surprising violence, emotional and physical. That is also not gender specific, and it is especially traumatic when a catastrophic escalation happens just when you've finally found the courage to speak up.
This. I still remember the first time I suggested to my now-ex-wife (in a tone that, looking back, was absolutely reasonable and pleasant) that, given how much more money we were spending every month than we were making, we should talk about limiting our discretionary spending. Whoo boy. For a few days I just stayed away from her, and exploration of it in couples therapy was quite revealing.
So gird your loins. It'll suck. But you have to do it. "man up" isn't a phrase I am particularly fond of, so let's just say "stand up and be an adult."
posted by davejay at 10:32 AM on May 3, 2013
This. I still remember the first time I suggested to my now-ex-wife (in a tone that, looking back, was absolutely reasonable and pleasant) that, given how much more money we were spending every month than we were making, we should talk about limiting our discretionary spending. Whoo boy. For a few days I just stayed away from her, and exploration of it in couples therapy was quite revealing.
So gird your loins. It'll suck. But you have to do it. "man up" isn't a phrase I am particularly fond of, so let's just say "stand up and be an adult."
posted by davejay at 10:32 AM on May 3, 2013
Consider the pms in the context of your relationship. It's hard when you're in the throes of emotional turmoil (especially due to hormones that are beyond your control) and you're in the swing of things. Sometimes you really don't have control of your emotions, but that doesn't mean that it's a free for all for your wife to treat you however she pleases. You are not a punching bag and there's no bulls eye on your back.
I suggest reflexology to curtail your wife's extreme mood swings as it might help, especially if she's not gun-ho about doctors, etc. She might enjoy it, plus you can get a dvd on it at your local library, get some massage oil and give it a shot. At the very least, she'll appreciate what she sees as a foot rub and possibly calm the tension between the two of you as the touch will allow you to see yourselves in the context of husband and wife instead of "spouse that I take for granted sometimes and could use the expression of my appreciation".
Definitely consider the 5 love languages because minor things during the month might reach a boiling point during her cycle and then it's volcano time and you're in Dante's peak. I wish you luck and love and definitely look out for your well-being and your daughter's if it gets too volatile. No matter what the reason, children should not be subject to strife in the home.
posted by lunastellasol at 4:25 PM on May 3, 2013
I suggest reflexology to curtail your wife's extreme mood swings as it might help, especially if she's not gun-ho about doctors, etc. She might enjoy it, plus you can get a dvd on it at your local library, get some massage oil and give it a shot. At the very least, she'll appreciate what she sees as a foot rub and possibly calm the tension between the two of you as the touch will allow you to see yourselves in the context of husband and wife instead of "spouse that I take for granted sometimes and could use the expression of my appreciation".
Definitely consider the 5 love languages because minor things during the month might reach a boiling point during her cycle and then it's volcano time and you're in Dante's peak. I wish you luck and love and definitely look out for your well-being and your daughter's if it gets too volatile. No matter what the reason, children should not be subject to strife in the home.
posted by lunastellasol at 4:25 PM on May 3, 2013
When I was trying to support a friend who had PTSD recently, I joined an internet support group, and the advice that kept coming up over and over in questions of abuse is to consider whether someone's behavior is unacceptable on its own terms. Whether someone has a reason to be emotionally unstable such as a stress disorder or PMS, if someone cannot or will not control their responses to the emotions they feel they can damage other people. If you're constantly excusing abusive behavior from your spouse then you're helping to enable it and teaching your daughter it's normal. You can be supportive, but that doesn't mean allowing a loved one to treat you poorly, and I would not allow someone to grind away at me on a regular basis.
Understanding the dynamic is important to resolving these communication issues (if that's possible), but don't fall into the trap of blaming yourself for being abused.
posted by krinklyfig at 2:39 AM on May 4, 2013 [1 favorite]
Understanding the dynamic is important to resolving these communication issues (if that's possible), but don't fall into the trap of blaming yourself for being abused.
posted by krinklyfig at 2:39 AM on May 4, 2013 [1 favorite]
Perhaps you could have a calm conversation with your wife about how her behavior hurts you. Have 3 to 4 examples of fights/arguments in the past ready to discuss. Let her know that this is important and that it is bothering you. Give her a chance to actually see / hear for herself how her behavior might have caused you pain**. I suppose the best time to do this is when she is not PMSing. Most likely she will feel embarrassed and blame the PMS. Ask her what she would do if she were you and also ask her to sleep over that thought.
Bring this up again after a week or two, or next time she is unreasonable. Again, let her know that this is an important problem and it is upsetting you. Her response this second time is more meaningful because maybe she was just being defensive the first time you pointed it out and your straightforwardness took her by surprise.
PMS and hormones are a real problem, but there are remedies that are safe and effective for your wife to explore if she agrees to.
If your wife constantly dismisses you or what is important to you, then there may be some big questions you need to ask yourself (Perhaps there is lack of respect in the marriage? Some other unresolved frustrations that manifest in these ways?)
No marriage is perfect, and only you can decide what amount of imperfection will drive you out. It is usually helpful to have an idea of what are your 'must-haves' in a relationship for you to stay, and what support are you willing to provide your partner so that they can fulfill your must-have list.
Above all - be kind to your partner. IMHO, it is the wise thing to do in the long-run.
**One of my friends was having issues with her mother and wanted mother to see how domineering she sometimes was. So my friend recorded one of her moms phone calls to her, and later played it back to her. Mom was enraged at first and embarrassed next, but after 2 months of very awkward territory, the mom slowly but surely mended her ways. Not suggesting you try this, or am actually not even advocating recording people w/o them finding out. But in this particular situation, the dynamics between mom-daughter were different. The point is to appeal to the 'rational side' of the other party as kindly as you can.
posted by Spice_and_Ice at 11:40 AM on May 6, 2013
Bring this up again after a week or two, or next time she is unreasonable. Again, let her know that this is an important problem and it is upsetting you. Her response this second time is more meaningful because maybe she was just being defensive the first time you pointed it out and your straightforwardness took her by surprise.
PMS and hormones are a real problem, but there are remedies that are safe and effective for your wife to explore if she agrees to.
If your wife constantly dismisses you or what is important to you, then there may be some big questions you need to ask yourself (Perhaps there is lack of respect in the marriage? Some other unresolved frustrations that manifest in these ways?)
No marriage is perfect, and only you can decide what amount of imperfection will drive you out. It is usually helpful to have an idea of what are your 'must-haves' in a relationship for you to stay, and what support are you willing to provide your partner so that they can fulfill your must-have list.
Above all - be kind to your partner. IMHO, it is the wise thing to do in the long-run.
**One of my friends was having issues with her mother and wanted mother to see how domineering she sometimes was. So my friend recorded one of her moms phone calls to her, and later played it back to her. Mom was enraged at first and embarrassed next, but after 2 months of very awkward territory, the mom slowly but surely mended her ways. Not suggesting you try this, or am actually not even advocating recording people w/o them finding out. But in this particular situation, the dynamics between mom-daughter were different. The point is to appeal to the 'rational side' of the other party as kindly as you can.
posted by Spice_and_Ice at 11:40 AM on May 6, 2013
This thread is closed to new comments.
I think the way you phrased your question strikes me as a little disingenuous - sort of an "Internet, tell me I'm right!" kind of thing - but yes, her PMS may be severe. PMDD is a real thing, and hormonal birth control and other medications can help control it.
posted by ablazingsaddle at 9:26 AM on May 2, 2013 [15 favorites]