Quitting on ethical grounds, for selfish reasons

April 30, 2013 3:28 PM

A coworker told me that our boss is sleeping with another coworker, his subordinate, our peer. This is the latest development in a dysfunctional workplace. I would like to quit on ethical grounds without implicating the friend that told me. Help, please.

I have been working at a family owned coffee shop for a year now. The cafe is run by 2 mid thirties men and staffed by 5 twenty something female baristas. Sam, the owner, constantly makes sexualy explicit jokes but otherwise is a charming man considered a pillar in our small community. Gabriel, the manager, is sullen and easily angered with poor people skills. He Rarely talks to customers and often belittles employees. When I started working I made it clear up front that Sam should not make jokes around me that in anyway demeaned women and if Gabriel ever bullied me or shamed me for making a mistake I would walk out on the spot.
When I first started there was a scene where sam's wife came in and confronted him about sleeping with a former barista. He admitted it, he and his wife are still together. I thought shit happens, it was none of my business.
Until now I have ignored the overheard sexually harassing jokes and bullying, thinking my coworkers could quit if they wanted to and it wasn't happening to me so I should just keep working.
Yesterday my friend and coworker, was yelled at by gabriel for making a drink incorrectly, got angry and let me know that Sam is currently sleeping with another friend/coworker. It is still none of my business but I feel like I can not continue to work for a person who makes it a habit of sleeping with is employ. They are all consenting adults but there is a power imbalance that can not be ignored a second time. I would like to quit. I would like to be honest and upfront about why i am quitting. But, I should not know about the affair and I think the only way I can quit without betraying my friends' secrets is by not giving a reason. I care more about my friends then being outspoken. But I'm hoping for solution where I can give an epic quitting speech and keep my friend's trust. Any advice?

* no real names used
* I do not need this job or a reference

posted by sabatourist to Human Relations (42 answers total)

I think you should reconsider your desire to "give an epic quitting speech." You are unlikely to accomplish anything beyond making everyone involved feel more uncomfortable.
posted by juliapangolin at 3:31 PM on April 30, 2013 [56 favorites]

Don't say a word. Just give them two weeks' notice. They don't need any explanation, and there's nothing to be gained by offering one.
posted by colin_l at 3:32 PM on April 30, 2013 [10 favorites]

Are you quitting because he's sleeping with a colleague or is it because of a general attitude of sexual harassment and poor management? If its the former I don't see how you can announce it without getting your friend in trouble. Also quitting your job because someone is sleeping with someone else is weird to me, but you know your own lines I guess. If its the latter then you can include that in your epic speech because its about your feelings about your work environment.

But personally, I have to say that it's not worth the drama. You've only been there a year, it's not your dream job (is it?) and no matter what you say you won't change the personalities of two grown men by denouncing them as scoundrels and flouncing off. I'd just quit and walk away.
posted by billiebee at 3:34 PM on April 30, 2013 [3 favorites]

I don't think making an epic quitting speech will help anyone. You might, though, talk to Sam privately and say you feel uncomfortable and that's why you're quitting. If you put him on the spot in public, he'll just get defensive.

A possibly even more effective way to deal with this is to quit quietly, saying you have another opportunity, but tell Sam, by way of something that's none of your business but might be a concern for him, that everyone knows about his affair, and that he is running a risk of a sexual harassment lawsuit -- not from you, but from some future employee.

He's more likely to change his behavior if you couch it as friendly advice from someone who's enjoyed working for him, than if you make an epic public speech.

I don't see what you get out of the speech, except burned bridges.
posted by musofire at 3:35 PM on April 30, 2013 [1 favorite]

You don't get to have it both ways -- you can't quit on account of the drama in the workplace by giving a speech that's just going multiply the drama. If you can quit, just quit. Don't talk.
posted by no regrets, coyote at 3:36 PM on April 30, 2013 [32 favorites]

You get to quit and vacate this obviously lousy situation.

You don't get to vent your spleen about the situation in the dramatic way you think you are owed.

Just quit and let it go.
posted by These Birds of a Feather at 3:39 PM on April 30, 2013 [6 favorites]

But I'm hoping for solution where I can give an epic quitting speech and keep my friend's trust. Any advice?

Sorry, but my advice is don't. It's not going to change anything and it could really burn some employment bridges. Do you really want to list a place where at the end of you working there you stood up to make some grand "shame on you" speech?

If you are concerned about others, maybe you can report them anonymously to a business bureau. Sexual harassment is not okay.

However when it comes to you actually conversing about your quitting just put on your "grown up undies" and move on. Everyone wants to yell "You should all be ashamed and Eff you, I'm sooo much better than this." when they leave a job. EVERYONE! But we don't. And if you do it will screw you over, not them. They will still be in business and you won't have that position as job experience.
posted by Crystalinne at 3:42 PM on April 30, 2013 [2 favorites]

You know what, find another job and then quit.

Why are you going to martyr yourself over this? That's silly.

There's no reason to cause drama over this, it doesn't affect you. Nothing you say will change anything these idiots do, and a guy sleeping with an employee, that's all on them, it's none of your business.

Be as indignant as you like, but don't cut off your nose to spite your face.

If you would quit and not say anything, then do that. But I think you want to make a fuss, and that's just immature and pointless.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 3:42 PM on April 30, 2013 [12 favorites]

Life isn't a movie and you arent Jerry Maguire. Just quit and don't look back.
posted by Justinian at 3:43 PM on April 30, 2013 [29 favorites]

Your boss is sleeping with an employee ... and?

I mean, yes, power dynamics and workplace and etc, but how is this your problem? Is the subordinate suffering? Are there career advancement opportunities at this cafe that you and others are missing out on because the boss is shtupping an employee?

Because if the answers are no, then you can quit because you're uncomfortable, but you have zero ownership over the underlying issue, so what would be the point in taking ownership over it by making a big deal over it?
posted by zippy at 3:45 PM on April 30, 2013 [7 favorites]

Quit if you can't stand the work situation, I don't blame you.
Everyone involved is an adult so not sure why you are getting involved or care who is sleeping with who.

You may not need a reference but if you look for work in your small community, someone may ask your previous employers about you, informally.

My advice: Quit and MYOB.
posted by Snazzy67 at 3:48 PM on April 30, 2013 [1 favorite]

But I'm hoping for solution where I can give an epic quitting speech and keep my friend's trust. Any advice?

My advice is to write a screenplay with this as a climactic scene, after you've quietly given your notice for this job.
posted by scody at 3:48 PM on April 30, 2013 [5 favorites]

You don't get a pat on the head and a cookie for making a big speech about things that are none of your business. If you want to quit, then quit. No one cares that you're doing it because you think you're better than your boss.
posted by MsMolly at 3:48 PM on April 30, 2013 [4 favorites]

Response by poster: Thanks for your advice. I obviously posted this question rashly, coming from an emotional and immature place. I think this was a question hoping for approval of unrealistic ideas. I really appreciate the constructive comments.
posted by sabatourist at 3:56 PM on April 30, 2013 [27 favorites]

Who sleeps with whom is none of your business, but if you feel that you work for unprofessional people who are creating a hostile workplace environment, then by all means leave. The speech is unnecessary - moving on to something better is more important and more effective.
posted by heyjude at 4:05 PM on April 30, 2013 [2 favorites]

And by the way, the best way to screw over your boss is to get a new job and just stop showing up. You don't need a reference, and that will really fuck things up for them. I think it's a shitty, immature thing to do, but that would have more impact than an "epic quitting speech."

Yeah, a better option is to just be as professional as you can. Get another job, pick a starting date a few weeks out, give a reasonable amount of notice, and just grit your teeth and go in and smile and be as helpful as you can for the last two weeks or whatever.
posted by aubilenon at 4:08 PM on April 30, 2013 [3 favorites]

So, yeah, uh, life's too short for this. Don't quit because Sam is sleeping with a barista -- for all you know that isn't true anyway -- quit because it is a lousy work environment. If you need the money, get another job before you quit, and if you don't, don't, but either way the important thing is that you leave with as little drama as possible. They can carry on in whatever nightmare they want to, there's no need for you to give a dramatic speech. Give two weeks' notice, if they ask why say "personal reasons", and that's that.

one thing you can always count on with lousy people doing lousy things: making a speech to them will have no impact whatsoever except to get more lousy behavior directed your way
posted by davejay at 4:13 PM on April 30, 2013 [2 favorites]

I disagree with everyone here.

Give an epic speech, let it all out.

You'll never do it again, and be better off for learning how NOT to quit a job.
posted by irishcoffee at 4:13 PM on April 30, 2013 [4 favorites]

The best revenge is living well. Get another, better job, and move on with your life. By doing that, you are WINNING! By becoming a story that people tell about that crazy person who gave a weird speech, you are not winning.
posted by ablazingsaddle at 4:18 PM on April 30, 2013

Get over it. You work for dicks. An epic speech is not going to fix that and will make you look kind of crazy. Nobody is making your co-worker fuck her boss and she knows he's married. And even if your co-worker wasn't sleeping with her boss, this sounds like a shitty place to work. Give notice and move along.
posted by shoesietart at 4:52 PM on April 30, 2013 [1 favorite]

I have worked in restaurants and coffee shops and seen lots of situations where the boss/manager was sleeping with a subordinate. Heck, at all of these places there was always somebody was sleeping with somebody else and causing drama.

Remove the boss sleeping with your coworker scenario and the situation still blows and you should quit without fanfare. Sure, you might not need this job for a reference, but you never know who knows who. And for all the times I have been tempted to rip off my apron and run out the door screaming "YOU ARE ALL FUCKING CRAZY!" I am glad I did not.
posted by futureisunwritten at 4:54 PM on April 30, 2013

In my experience people like your boss (and the co-worker) get the bad karma that's coming to them sooner or later. But it isn't your responsibility to dish it out to them.

Move on and don't waste any energy looking back.
posted by Revie1 at 4:59 PM on April 30, 2013 [1 favorite]

I am in a similar situation (boss rumored to be sleeping with co-worker(s)) and I did tell him off, without quitting, and the thing is, he/they don't care what I think. I agree with others that you should find another job and leave in a professional manner, just leaving them to their sordid mess.
posted by auntie maim at 5:00 PM on April 30, 2013

"Wow, that was a fantastic speech, making me rethink my actions, and now I'm going to stop sleeping with my employee," said no one, ever.

If you're going to quit, quit. Do it professionally, be quick about it, and save your speeches for later.
posted by NotMyselfRightNow at 5:13 PM on April 30, 2013 [7 favorites]

This is the type of situation those anonymous love you hate you blurbs in city weeklies were made for.
posted by WeekendJen at 5:14 PM on April 30, 2013 [2 favorites]

A coworker told me

Gossip is not a reason to quit, or even form an opinion. This is about other people.


dysfunctional workplace.

This is reason to quit, as this is about you. Be sure that the steps you take and the words you choose are also about you. Such as "I found another job."
posted by headnsouth at 5:31 PM on April 30, 2013 [3 favorites]

Consider which of your choices will give you the greatest unemployment benefits and do that. Is there any way to quit for harassment and still collect unemployment, which usually you don't get if you just quit? If so, can you do that?
posted by htid at 5:55 PM on April 30, 2013

If you do want to give an epic speech when you quit, I'd make it about the atmosphere of sexual harassment, and about how they should treat women better. And I'd make it in front of the baristas who are quietly putting up with the treatment, just so they see that it's not just them - other people find it objectionable too. It might make them feel more empowered to stand up for themselves in the future.

But I agree with others that it would probably be best not to do this at all.
posted by lollusc at 6:00 PM on April 30, 2013

i wouldn't make any sort of epic quitting speech but just give my 2 weeks notice. if the work environment is that hostile then you could always report them to the proper authorities for sexual harrassment/hostile environment. doing that may or may not be worth the hassle that would be involved.
posted by wildflower at 6:15 PM on April 30, 2013

Um. In my opinion, constantly making sexual jokes and remarks to subordinates is a form not merely of harassment but also of grooming. It sounds like the boss makes these jokes to test boundaries and then goes after the ones who, unlike you, are not offering resistance. In that sense, the boss sleeping with his subordinates does concern you. I disagree with the comments above that seem to imply that verbal harassment is awful but following that harassment to its logical conclusion is somehow assured to be totally consensual and above-board and none of your business even though it's happening in your place of work.

I don't think the tell-off will serve you, though, except to give you a momentary sense of relief followed by constant worry that this will haunt you (though my understanding is that this sort of service work doesn't rely as heavily on references.) There's htid's advice and also other channels where you could make your complaints, like glassdoor.com or maybe Yelp. I'd stick to comments like "Made inappropriate remarks" or "unprofessional work environment."
posted by ziggly at 6:18 PM on April 30, 2013 [4 favorites]

I have ignored the overheard sexually harassing jokes

I think this is an interesting and important detail. If those jokes are being told within earshot of you, or anyone else who dislikes them, they are creating a creepy environment for you, even if you aren't the targeted listener.

If you decide to quit, you could mention this to your employer. Not as any sort of a legal threat, but just to give voice to your ethics. You'd indicated early on that this would be a quitting-offense to you, so you would simply be backing up your words with action.

Given the tone of the workplace -- the drama-o-rama you've described -- an epic quitting speech wouldn't be out of character for the place; but I can almost guarantee you will walk away wishing you'd said something more, or differently.

Sometimes brevity of speech when dealing with knuckleheads is the most eloquent way to give them the ol' verbal eff-off.
posted by nacho fries at 6:49 PM on April 30, 2013 [3 favorites]

If you want to quit, quit. But the evidence that the boss is screwing around again is from someone speaking in anger. Your friend may just strongly suspect, or may just be passing on someone else's suspicions (that is, your evidence may be fourth hand and unreliable).
posted by 445supermag at 6:57 PM on April 30, 2013 [1 favorite]

Give your notice (is two whole weeks really standard for coffeeshops? I think a week would suffice.)

If your boss asks why, and IF you can calmly, professionally, cooly say "the management's utter lack of ethics and their disrespect for the employees" or some such statement...IF you can do that without getting defensive or feeling compelled to explain further.

But you have to be willing to turn on your heel and confidently walk away without seeing the reaction, which is awfully nervewracking when you've got absolutely no guarantee that the guy will give you the last word that easily. It's a whole lot easier and safer to pull off in a movie, y'know?
posted by desuetude at 7:04 PM on April 30, 2013

Having worked at many very unprofessional crap jobs, and been pretty hotheaded in my youth, I have given some epic quitting speeches myself. They really don't do much. They can be entertaining. They can be fun for venting frustration. They can earn you an interesting reputation. In one case, I ran into one of my coworkers many years down the line and she was STILL laughing and telling me how much of a legend I was in our old shop after telling off the manager that everyone hated. But really, in the big picture, it won't do any good, and if you say too much, you will end up feeling more like an idiot than otherwise.

Personally... in my stupider days... I'd have waited for Sam to say something good and offensive during my shift, given him the Glare, said something simple like "you know what? You're an ass. I don't know why anyone puts up with you. I quit." and walked out on the spot. I think that would be the most satisfying... BUT as everyone else is saying, big picture, it won't do anyone any real good, it will probably screw over whoever else is working with you at the moment, and honestly it would be better to just give notice and leave for no real reason.
posted by celtalitha at 7:12 PM on April 30, 2013 [1 favorite]

This is none of your business, and you'd be betraying your friends secrets. Who cares about this job, if the environment is that poisonous? Just find another job and quit with no notice.
posted by empath at 8:45 PM on April 30, 2013

The worst feeling ever is when you prepare an epic quitting speech with verbal flourishes and anger and disgust and so much passion and then the boss looks at you, blinks, and says nothing. Whatever dramatic quitting speech you want to give, the boss will never ever respond as you want them to. You'll have caught them off guard, they won't have prepared an epic rebuttal and they probably won't respond at all for fear of litigation - employment law in the US is governed with stringent rules around what is and isn't appropriate.
posted by bendy at 8:51 PM on April 30, 2013

Thinking about this more, if you want to do something less epic but more effective (but also way more exhausting) you might be eligible to collect unemployment for leaving a job where there is sexual harassment (normally when you quit, you don't get benefits).

I don't advise this, because it's probably more emotionally and mentally taxing than it's worth economically, but if you really want to, it's something you can read up on. Your state's unemployment office probably has more info.
posted by zippy at 10:04 PM on April 30, 2013 [1 favorite]

If it would make you feel better, you could write your epic quitting speech down, getting it exactly the way you want it. Then throw it out.
posted by Edna Million at 10:23 PM on April 30, 2013

A lot of people are saying that it's none of your business who is sleeping with whom, but here are my bullet points of choice:

- one boss makes sexually explicit jokes to anyone who will listen, and sometimes within your earshot although you have indicated that you won't tolerate his making such remarks directly;
- another boss frequently demeans the employees;
- the first boss's wife has intruded upon the workplace to cause a public scene about that boss's affairs with his subordinates;
- following another incident where the second boss demeaned you and a colleague, the other colleague has told you that the first boss and a third colleague are having another illicit affair.
-- because of past behaviour this accusation is credible, but
-- it's not simply that this has been said, but that it has been told to you as hearsay about two other people by someone who was angry with a third other person at the time.

Then you come on here and vent, and get hit with the Dramaz Stick for being immature. I agree that the way you asked the question makes you seem immature, but an unsuspecting person working in that atmosphere for any length of time is likely to find that bad company corrupts, you know?

I agree with others who have said the sexual remarks seem like a form of grooming. That's one thing.

I also see why your disgruntled colleague gossiping to you is disturbing. If the accusation were not true, it would I'm fairly sure meet a legal definition of defamation in the UK; saying that kind of thing can be seriously damaging and have consequences. True or false, the consequence for you is being in an atmosphere where either bad stuff is really happening and getting talked about, or life-ruining gossip gets spread every time someone is pissed off about anything. Yeah, it is technically the truth that "it's not your business who is sleeping with whom," but that is beside the point. You're not the one who's making it your business.

Finally, people can say this is a bunch of drama and you should be above the drama and it's all too petty to think about, but they're also saying that venting your spleen will make you a lot less employable, especially if you are in a small town/job market. Can't have it both ways.

Of course, I think you shouldn't vent your spleen, and I think you also shouldn't necessarily go on Yelp or give a bad review; you were an employee, not a customer. Never assume you won't need a reference or that you can do anything without its affecting your reputation. I'd bet that just working there is affecting your reputation.

In your place I would suggest getting a new job, and when they ask why you're leaving the previous one say "oh, the work culture isn't a good fit for me" but don't be drawn into saying anything negative, just say "it's just time to move on" and "we'll I've always wanted to work for a company [like yours] that sells those little gingerbread houses that fit over the edge of a mug."

Then when you give notice at your present job, just give notice and don't give a reason. Repeat the "time to move on" broken record.

If anyone in your subsequent professional life asks what it was like to work there, the worst you should ever say is that it was a "very unprofessional atmosphere", and you shouldn't even say that unless you're asked. Don't tell people unbidden. Or at all, really, if it's a professional situation. If someone from a job you're at is thinking of applying there and tells you, that's when you say the line about it being a very unprofessional atmosphere. Or if your new boss says "good news! I'm interviewing your ex-Boss from Hell for a managerial position!" you could then say, "oh dear, when I worked for him it was a very unprofessional atmosphere." You talk about this stuff in a professional setting when someone is about to get hit by a bus, but not otherwise.

Among your friends and family, that's where you can let rip.
posted by tel3path at 1:41 AM on May 1, 2013 [2 favorites]

Unfortunately the things you describe are far from unheard of in the F&B industry. Making a grand exit may be satisfying but is unlikely to accomplish anything; look at this AskMe for some discussion on leaving a toxic restaurant job.
posted by TedW at 6:56 AM on May 1, 2013

Bosses sleep with employees . . . everywhere, not just at small businesses with harassing supervisors. You will likely encounter this situation again. Is this your line in the sand where you always quit?

The harassment is actually more serious, and might elicit understanding sympathy from future employers, where a declaration that you quit over a boss's affair with a consenting employee could appear sancitmonious and naive. And epic quitting speeches? Regretted.
posted by citygirl at 7:00 AM on May 1, 2013 [1 favorite]

Did you get feedback that the employee felt preyed on, manipulated, or used? If he's behaving in a coercive manner with employees and using his power advantage to befriend and then "seduce" in a coercive exploitative manner, this is certainly your business.

If someone WAS harmed by this, the whole "it's not of my business how people abuse and harm each other" mantra is kind of meh, in my opinion.

However since you don't know the woman he slept with well enough to find out how she's feeling, support her, etc-- there's absolutely nothing you can do other than quit.

I think if the woman he slept with was hurting and you knew this and had her permission, it would be fine to tell the boss "Hey, this shit? Not cool, it's left someone hurting and I don't respect a boss who does this to their employees" AFTER you finish your two weeks notice and the woman in question has also quit.

Unless those factors are in place, I would just quit and say nothing- although saying something about the sexual harassment in general would be fine to report. I have had a number of food service jobs with a lot of sexual harassment and in general no one presses charges for verbal sexual harassment in my experience, but actual gestures or actions can be lawsuit material.

I would say that all the women I know from sexually harassing work places are really quiet and "cool" about it. Don't cause problems or say anything! It's refreshing to stand up and say something about it although personally I never have. It's a culture where you're really not supposed to say anything about sexual harrasment or who exploits who no matter gets hurt. One of my bosses had sex with the young ladies all the time, triply creepy because he was like 60 and these were 17-20 year olds. Legal in the state of Texas, but dude. Seriously, that's IS some wack shit.

Good luck. I'd recommend just quitting. It's pretty common in my experience which is why everyone says "Don't say anything!" but maybe if people didn't tolerate sexual harassment and exploitation as the way we have to accept it, it might not be that way as much?
posted by xarnop at 10:16 AM on May 1, 2013 [3 favorites]