Dealing with Asbestos in Popcorn Ceiling
April 24, 2013 5:33 PM Subscribe
My popcorn ceilings contains asbestos and I'm wondering how should we deal with it?
So my wife and I recently bought a house. The house is in relatively good condition. The only thing I really wanted to fix up right away was the popcorn ceilings. I was getting ready to either scrape them myself or perhaps hire someone to do that. But I decided to first have a lab test some samples for asbestos. Unfortunately the ceiling contains 2-3% asbestos. We have found a company that can do the abatement of the ceiling at a fairly reasonable price. But here's my biggest complaint given the situation...EVERYTHING would have to be removed from the house and we along with our pets would have to be out of the house during the removal. The thought of having to move everything out, find a place to stay, and find a place for the pets to stay is making me want to throw up. If we didn't have to move all our stuff out, I'd feel a lot better. I'm told that if we leave the popcorn ceiling as is...it's safe as long as it's not disturbed. Another option I've heard about would be to put drywall over the ceiling. One company I spoke with said we wouldn’t' have to move all our stuff out doing the drywall method. They have a special method that covers everything. They come highly recommended. The problem with doing the drywall is that when it comes time to sell we still have to disclose the asbestos. I'm still seriously considering just removing the ceiling myself. How dangerous would it be to just remove the ceiling myself wearing a respirator? Is that a crazy idea? What about the drywall idea and what happens when you go to sell and have to disclose? If you have any opinions here on what we should do that would be great. And of course if there's something we haven't thought of to deal with this, please let me know.
So my wife and I recently bought a house. The house is in relatively good condition. The only thing I really wanted to fix up right away was the popcorn ceilings. I was getting ready to either scrape them myself or perhaps hire someone to do that. But I decided to first have a lab test some samples for asbestos. Unfortunately the ceiling contains 2-3% asbestos. We have found a company that can do the abatement of the ceiling at a fairly reasonable price. But here's my biggest complaint given the situation...EVERYTHING would have to be removed from the house and we along with our pets would have to be out of the house during the removal. The thought of having to move everything out, find a place to stay, and find a place for the pets to stay is making me want to throw up. If we didn't have to move all our stuff out, I'd feel a lot better. I'm told that if we leave the popcorn ceiling as is...it's safe as long as it's not disturbed. Another option I've heard about would be to put drywall over the ceiling. One company I spoke with said we wouldn’t' have to move all our stuff out doing the drywall method. They have a special method that covers everything. They come highly recommended. The problem with doing the drywall is that when it comes time to sell we still have to disclose the asbestos. I'm still seriously considering just removing the ceiling myself. How dangerous would it be to just remove the ceiling myself wearing a respirator? Is that a crazy idea? What about the drywall idea and what happens when you go to sell and have to disclose? If you have any opinions here on what we should do that would be great. And of course if there's something we haven't thought of to deal with this, please let me know.
There is a reason why they want you to remove your pets and your things. Namely, so they, and you, don't get motherfucking cancer. My husband used to work for a law office that litigated asbestos tort claims and running this question by him led to flailing and the verbal equivalent of all-caps: "OH HELL NO!!! YOU DO NOT MESS WITH MOTHERFUCKING ASBESTOS!"
He then told a story about how this guy got mesothelioma from kicking an asbestos-wrapped pipe that sat above his bed. Seriously, this isn't something you want to mess around with.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 5:42 PM on April 24, 2013 [7 favorites]
He then told a story about how this guy got mesothelioma from kicking an asbestos-wrapped pipe that sat above his bed. Seriously, this isn't something you want to mess around with.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 5:42 PM on April 24, 2013 [7 favorites]
You might be able to get it wet enough that scraping it won't leave dust.
I scraped the one last room with popcorn in our house with a shopvac taped to my scraping arm. When I went to mud over the remnants, I found that the popcorn layer came off with a fairly wet sponge, once it was saturated.
posted by notsnot at 5:42 PM on April 24, 2013
I scraped the one last room with popcorn in our house with a shopvac taped to my scraping arm. When I went to mud over the remnants, I found that the popcorn layer came off with a fairly wet sponge, once it was saturated.
posted by notsnot at 5:42 PM on April 24, 2013
I know this isn't what you want to hear, but you leave it alone and move on with your life. Otherwise it's just yet another $2K reno project regardless of whether you remove it or cover it up.
posted by GuyZero at 5:43 PM on April 24, 2013
posted by GuyZero at 5:43 PM on April 24, 2013
Best answer: Don't do it yourself.
The reason they would need you to remove everything to remove the popcorn ceiling is that removing the material will create dust, which will get all over everything you own. (Yes, even if you wet the asbestos.) That dust has asbestos in it, and is very difficult to remove safely. If you have everything removed from the house and have the contractors do the removal, they can remove all the dust and take air clearance samples to confirm the dust is fully removed.
They are right that the ceiling texture is safe to leave in place as long as you don't disturb it or damage it in any way. The drywall idea is also fine. On the disclosure front, I'd be very surprised if disclosing asbestos in an older house would be a major hit to the house's value, especially if it's an older house where really people should be happy it's properly encapsulated. Presumably you'd still have to disclose if you left the material in place without the drywall, right? (If you're concerned, maybe assume that if you did have to sell and it became a Thing, you could have the abatement company do the abatement after you've moved out?)
(Disclaimer: I am an environmental consultant, I am not your environmental consultant, I am not licensed to do asbestos work in your jurisdiction.)
posted by pie ninja at 5:49 PM on April 24, 2013 [7 favorites]
The reason they would need you to remove everything to remove the popcorn ceiling is that removing the material will create dust, which will get all over everything you own. (Yes, even if you wet the asbestos.) That dust has asbestos in it, and is very difficult to remove safely. If you have everything removed from the house and have the contractors do the removal, they can remove all the dust and take air clearance samples to confirm the dust is fully removed.
They are right that the ceiling texture is safe to leave in place as long as you don't disturb it or damage it in any way. The drywall idea is also fine. On the disclosure front, I'd be very surprised if disclosing asbestos in an older house would be a major hit to the house's value, especially if it's an older house where really people should be happy it's properly encapsulated. Presumably you'd still have to disclose if you left the material in place without the drywall, right? (If you're concerned, maybe assume that if you did have to sell and it became a Thing, you could have the abatement company do the abatement after you've moved out?)
(Disclaimer: I am an environmental consultant, I am not your environmental consultant, I am not licensed to do asbestos work in your jurisdiction.)
posted by pie ninja at 5:49 PM on April 24, 2013 [7 favorites]
You need to remove it. Now that you know about it you HAVE to tell the next buyer about it or you are committing a crime and are liable for damages AND criminal charges. While some types of asbestos containing materials might be possible to remove DIY (tiles or shingles only I think) with extreme care, popcorn ceilings are VERY friable and require care to remove (so does insulation) and is left to professionals. Hire a pod container to store all your stuff in, move your stuff into that (and/or a garage if that doesn't need remediation) and go on a vacation for a few days while the company does it thing. Then you can repaint it all the rooms while they are empty, also a good time to replace any flooring or other easy to do renovations. Then you move back in to your now safe and asbestos free home. It would also be a great time to open up any walls for wiring work or plumbing renovations needed/wanted. OH and since you will have to reinsiluate the attic might as well get that redone to modern standards as well.
posted by bartonlong at 5:52 PM on April 24, 2013
posted by bartonlong at 5:52 PM on April 24, 2013
Leave it? Have a browse through Retro Renovation for an idea of how many people thrill to dated decor. But it would help to see pictures or have a good description, because the answer to this question depends on whether your house is thrillingly "mid-century modern" or just a mishmash of styles that happens to include dated ceilings.
The drywall idea sounds terrible. "Here is an asbestos issue" is better than "Here is an asbestos issue plus another issue."
Why You May Want to Learn to Love Your Popcorn Ceilings (And How to Lessen Their Visual Effect)
posted by kmennie at 5:55 PM on April 24, 2013
The drywall idea sounds terrible. "Here is an asbestos issue" is better than "Here is an asbestos issue plus another issue."
Why You May Want to Learn to Love Your Popcorn Ceilings (And How to Lessen Their Visual Effect)
posted by kmennie at 5:55 PM on April 24, 2013
If the adverse health effects of asbestos exposure is an acceptable risk to you, your wife and pets, then proceed with removing the ceiling your self. The reason abatement can be so costly and inconvenient is that for most people, high cancer risk is not a good trade-off for saving time and money.
posted by loquat at 5:55 PM on April 24, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by loquat at 5:55 PM on April 24, 2013 [1 favorite]
Please don't try to take it out yourself. Any post even hinting that you should remove it yourself should be deleted from the site. Either pay for proper remediation or leave it alone until it becomes a hazard (and it may never).
posted by gerryblog at 5:58 PM on April 24, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by gerryblog at 5:58 PM on April 24, 2013 [2 favorites]
It's possible to do it yourself, but it's a crazy idea, especially if the only benefit of doing so is that you don't have to move your furniture.
Here's a decent write-up of the issues involved (PDF), at least in Washington State.
Salient points: Are you aware of the legal issues involved?
During removal
The law prohibits you from hiring anyone other than a certified asbestos abatement contractor to perform — or assist with — asbestos removal work in your single-family residence. Homeowners may remove asbestos themselves. But as stated above, this option is difficult, time-consuming, and dangerous to your health if prescribed work procedures are not strictly followed.
During disposal
If you choose to remove asbestos yourself, you take on the legal liability of ensuring proper bagging and identification of asbestos debris, correct transport (in a covered vehicle), and disposal ONLY at disposal sites or transfer stations authorized to receive such waste. These regulations protect your community from the harmful effects of asbestos. The Washington State Department of Labor and Industries has regulations that may also apply. Call 800-4-BE-SAFE or visit www.lni.wa.gov/wisha for more information.
If you go through the whole list of instructions, you'll see that it's really not an easy thing, and you'll pretty easily spend as much time dicking around with getting all the equipment and preparing the room and yourself for the job as you would moving furniture around. And if you screw up one tiny bit, you're putting yourself at risk. Let a pro do it.
posted by LionIndex at 6:10 PM on April 24, 2013 [3 favorites]
Here's a decent write-up of the issues involved (PDF), at least in Washington State.
Salient points: Are you aware of the legal issues involved?
During removal
The law prohibits you from hiring anyone other than a certified asbestos abatement contractor to perform — or assist with — asbestos removal work in your single-family residence. Homeowners may remove asbestos themselves. But as stated above, this option is difficult, time-consuming, and dangerous to your health if prescribed work procedures are not strictly followed.
During disposal
If you choose to remove asbestos yourself, you take on the legal liability of ensuring proper bagging and identification of asbestos debris, correct transport (in a covered vehicle), and disposal ONLY at disposal sites or transfer stations authorized to receive such waste. These regulations protect your community from the harmful effects of asbestos. The Washington State Department of Labor and Industries has regulations that may also apply. Call 800-4-BE-SAFE or visit www.lni.wa.gov/wisha for more information.
If you go through the whole list of instructions, you'll see that it's really not an easy thing, and you'll pretty easily spend as much time dicking around with getting all the equipment and preparing the room and yourself for the job as you would moving furniture around. And if you screw up one tiny bit, you're putting yourself at risk. Let a pro do it.
posted by LionIndex at 6:10 PM on April 24, 2013 [3 favorites]
The Government EPA website has a list of what to do and what is safe/not safe. I don't have experience in removing or dealing with it, however I know I wouldn't want to put myself or my family at risk if you do remove it.
It's not like "Oh there will be some dust." It's like shards of a glass-like spiny material that get stuck in your lung tissue and can cause cancer! Have you seen this stuff under a microscope!
I mean even my simple information about asbestos from geology class is scary enough. It's not like you can cough it up, it gets stuck in your lung tissue. Therefore knowing the consequences of not having it done properly, I say either don't touch it or get it done professionally.
The EPA website I linked also says that if you decide to keep it, you have to constantly check that it does not get disturbed and limit activity in that room that could disturb it (for example children playing with balls or toys that can hit the ceiling.)
posted by Crystalinne at 6:37 PM on April 24, 2013 [2 favorites]
It's not like "Oh there will be some dust." It's like shards of a glass-like spiny material that get stuck in your lung tissue and can cause cancer! Have you seen this stuff under a microscope!
I mean even my simple information about asbestos from geology class is scary enough. It's not like you can cough it up, it gets stuck in your lung tissue. Therefore knowing the consequences of not having it done properly, I say either don't touch it or get it done professionally.
The EPA website I linked also says that if you decide to keep it, you have to constantly check that it does not get disturbed and limit activity in that room that could disturb it (for example children playing with balls or toys that can hit the ceiling.)
posted by Crystalinne at 6:37 PM on April 24, 2013 [2 favorites]
Best answer: But here's my biggest complaint given the situation...EVERYTHING would have to be removed from the house and we along with our pets would have to be out of the house during the removal.
This really isn't a complaint. This is the way things have to be for a matter of prime safety. It's like complaining that you have to wear oven mitts to take a roast out of the oven.
I actually have a fair amount of asbestos litigation experience. It is accurate that your ceiling is safe as long as it isn't disturbed. If it were me, I would not disturb it and would leave it as it. The documented danger from asbestos in building structures is less than that of lightning strikes. I would leave it, and I am someone who has take the deposition of someone in a hospital as he lay dying from meso.
The danger of asbestos comes from long-term inhalation of the particulate matter in the dust. One-time exposure is not likely to cause health issues, so I don't buy the story about kicking a pipe causing meso/lung cancer. We are all breathing in asbestos fibers to some extent, and the dust you might inhale during this project wouldn't do much in the aggregate to your lifetime exposure. The people who are asbestos plaintiffs have been exposed for years. The danger to me is that during the course of your DIY project, you would diffuse asbestos fibers throughout the room and adjacent room where it could land on furniture and other items and thereby be constantly agitated over time, which would give you and your family a long-term exposure.
If you are determined to have the asbestos abated, which I certainly understand (although I would leave it be), you must have professionals do it. This is not a DIY project. This is not a close call.
posted by Tanizaki at 6:53 PM on April 24, 2013 [5 favorites]
This really isn't a complaint. This is the way things have to be for a matter of prime safety. It's like complaining that you have to wear oven mitts to take a roast out of the oven.
I actually have a fair amount of asbestos litigation experience. It is accurate that your ceiling is safe as long as it isn't disturbed. If it were me, I would not disturb it and would leave it as it. The documented danger from asbestos in building structures is less than that of lightning strikes. I would leave it, and I am someone who has take the deposition of someone in a hospital as he lay dying from meso.
The danger of asbestos comes from long-term inhalation of the particulate matter in the dust. One-time exposure is not likely to cause health issues, so I don't buy the story about kicking a pipe causing meso/lung cancer. We are all breathing in asbestos fibers to some extent, and the dust you might inhale during this project wouldn't do much in the aggregate to your lifetime exposure. The people who are asbestos plaintiffs have been exposed for years. The danger to me is that during the course of your DIY project, you would diffuse asbestos fibers throughout the room and adjacent room where it could land on furniture and other items and thereby be constantly agitated over time, which would give you and your family a long-term exposure.
If you are determined to have the asbestos abated, which I certainly understand (although I would leave it be), you must have professionals do it. This is not a DIY project. This is not a close call.
posted by Tanizaki at 6:53 PM on April 24, 2013 [5 favorites]
Best answer: Any post even hinting that you should remove it yourself should be deleted from the site.
Au contraire, any post that pre-emptively says another post should be deleted should be deleted.
Asbestos is, obviously, dangerous. But it is not quite the boogie-man that some uneducated types seem to believe. The vast majority of sufferers are/were miners and tradespeople, people who have been exposed to the dust in reasonable quantities over their working life. The likelihood of getting asbestosis from one properly limited, low risk exposure is about the same as getting cancer from eating red meat, living near a major road, having an X-ray, etc. The sort of risk that people take knowingly or unknowingly all the time.
If you covered all furniture with drop sheets, wore full coverings and a respirator, wetted the ceiling, avoided any and all dust creating activities, and cleaned up thoroughly afterwards, then the risk to your or your families future health is minimal/trivial.
Disposing of the stuff in a prescribed waste facility may be expensive however, that may be a large part of the cost of the quote you got. If it wasn't for the notification requirement, I would do the ceiling in plasterboard/drywall. As it is, I would probably paint it in multiple coats of a nice thick acrylic and learn to live with it.
posted by wilful at 7:37 PM on April 24, 2013 [2 favorites]
Au contraire, any post that pre-emptively says another post should be deleted should be deleted.
Asbestos is, obviously, dangerous. But it is not quite the boogie-man that some uneducated types seem to believe. The vast majority of sufferers are/were miners and tradespeople, people who have been exposed to the dust in reasonable quantities over their working life. The likelihood of getting asbestosis from one properly limited, low risk exposure is about the same as getting cancer from eating red meat, living near a major road, having an X-ray, etc. The sort of risk that people take knowingly or unknowingly all the time.
If you covered all furniture with drop sheets, wore full coverings and a respirator, wetted the ceiling, avoided any and all dust creating activities, and cleaned up thoroughly afterwards, then the risk to your or your families future health is minimal/trivial.
Disposing of the stuff in a prescribed waste facility may be expensive however, that may be a large part of the cost of the quote you got. If it wasn't for the notification requirement, I would do the ceiling in plasterboard/drywall. As it is, I would probably paint it in multiple coats of a nice thick acrylic and learn to live with it.
posted by wilful at 7:37 PM on April 24, 2013 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: I appreciate the responses. I must say, I'm surprised to see so many people with heavy precautions about not doing this myself. I've done a lot of research and as wilful and Tanizaki say, most cases of cancer from asbestos comes from people with long term exposure who worked with the stuff for years. Many people remove popcorn ceilings...most don't even test for asbestos. Not saying that's the right thing to do but people do it. 2-3% seemes like a small amount. On the flip side, I'm a health conscious by the book kind of guy. And while my gut is telling me that there's probably not much danger, I'm not sure I'd feel comfortable doing this on my own. But it's interesting to see many people on here saying not to do it. I know a guy who works at a testing lab for asbestos and he said he'd remove it on his own. Just to make sure the ceiling is nice a wet before scraping so as to avoid lots of dust. For now I'll probably just leave it alone but still may have it abated. I welcome more opinions.
posted by ljs30 at 8:38 PM on April 24, 2013
posted by ljs30 at 8:38 PM on April 24, 2013
You're in California, right? As far as I can tell asbestos removal of more than 100 square feet requires a licensed technician there.
wilful and Tanizaki are simply not correct. If you improperly or incompletely remove the asbestos you risk creating long-term, repeated exposure in your own home. In some states any type of self-removal is illegal and for good reason; expert remediation is always recommended for asbestos.
I sincerely hope that if you decide to remove the material yourself you'll value your family's health higher than cutting corners on such a relatively small, one-time expense.
posted by gerryblog at 8:48 PM on April 24, 2013 [3 favorites]
wilful and Tanizaki are simply not correct. If you improperly or incompletely remove the asbestos you risk creating long-term, repeated exposure in your own home. In some states any type of self-removal is illegal and for good reason; expert remediation is always recommended for asbestos.
I sincerely hope that if you decide to remove the material yourself you'll value your family's health higher than cutting corners on such a relatively small, one-time expense.
posted by gerryblog at 8:48 PM on April 24, 2013 [3 favorites]
Mod note: Folks, please don't do the back-and-forth thing - state your position and let the OP judge.
posted by restless_nomad (staff) at 8:58 PM on April 24, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by restless_nomad (staff) at 8:58 PM on April 24, 2013 [1 favorite]
Best answer: Here's a bit of context - the persons who installed your ceiling probably installed hundreds of others, sawing and drilling and cutting without any protection. They probably lived long and fruitful lives. The persons who sold them the material probably handled hundred of sheets a week, without any protection, and again probably lived full lives. This was a very very common building material, pretty much every DIYer and builder for several decades came in much closer contact with it than you are likely to. Are all these people dropping dead in the streets? hardly.
Of course, the person who mined the stuff, well they probably drowned in their own lungs.
The guys who will remove this for you, they don't have any special skills or abilities or equipment, they aren't likely to take any more care or caution than you are, less probably, you're just a job for money and time, you would be likely to do a more thorough and safer job than them.
posted by wilful at 12:11 AM on April 25, 2013 [1 favorite]
Of course, the person who mined the stuff, well they probably drowned in their own lungs.
The guys who will remove this for you, they don't have any special skills or abilities or equipment, they aren't likely to take any more care or caution than you are, less probably, you're just a job for money and time, you would be likely to do a more thorough and safer job than them.
posted by wilful at 12:11 AM on April 25, 2013 [1 favorite]
I've been through a lead-safe training course, and I believe it would be possible to do this yourself -- the actual tools and techniques are unremarkable -- but you should only do so with proper training, which will probably cost you a couple hundred bucks, and then you may as well hire someone to do it. You would need things like plastic sheets creating a multi-layer doorway -- more like a zero-depth airlock than a flap of sheet. You need all registers and air returns sealed so you don't spread asbestos into the rest of the house. You would need to wear complete bunny suits, gloves, and a properly rated breathing mask with eye protection. You would need to follow safe and legal disposal practices. There's a reason there are certified contractors for this.
posted by dhartung at 2:06 AM on April 25, 2013
posted by dhartung at 2:06 AM on April 25, 2013
Ever see all those TV commercials for lawyers, soliciting mesothelioma cases? If there weren't a lot of asbestos-related cases out there, I doubt the lawyers would pay all that money to run them. Please don't do this yourself: either live with the ceiling as-is or pay a professional.
posted by easily confused at 2:33 AM on April 25, 2013
posted by easily confused at 2:33 AM on April 25, 2013
Best answer: This is an interesting question. Imagine if instead it said..."I work for a company and we have asbestos in the popcorn ceilings. My boss doesn't want to shut down for a couple of days because its too inconvenient. He told me to just scrape it off myself and throw it in the trash. He said he read on the internet I have nothing to worry about." Do you think the responses would be different? People would be saying call the cops, the EPA, the FBI, OSHA, a lawyer and anyone else you can think of. Kind of makes you see why companies do things like this - its cheaper and more convenient than doing the right thing.
Also, someday you will sell your house and you will have to disclose the asbestos. Your choices are:
1. I had it abated by a professional company, here is the certificate that the house is clear of all asbestos;
2. I had it encapsulated with sheetrock by a licensed contractor, here is the certificate;
3. I left it alone;
4. I scraped it off myself with a putty knife, I guess I got all of it. Don't worry a couple of guys on the internet said its all good.
You should find out how much proper disposal will be, plus all the time this will take, and you might find it to be cheaper and more convenient to have it done the legal way by a licensed contractor. Or go to a job site and see the equipment they have and how they work. Then decide.
posted by mikedelic at 5:31 AM on April 25, 2013 [2 favorites]
Also, someday you will sell your house and you will have to disclose the asbestos. Your choices are:
1. I had it abated by a professional company, here is the certificate that the house is clear of all asbestos;
2. I had it encapsulated with sheetrock by a licensed contractor, here is the certificate;
3. I left it alone;
4. I scraped it off myself with a putty knife, I guess I got all of it. Don't worry a couple of guys on the internet said its all good.
You should find out how much proper disposal will be, plus all the time this will take, and you might find it to be cheaper and more convenient to have it done the legal way by a licensed contractor. Or go to a job site and see the equipment they have and how they work. Then decide.
posted by mikedelic at 5:31 AM on April 25, 2013 [2 favorites]
Leave it or hire it out to a professional.
The reason is that if it isn't done right, the dust gets into everything and you will be constantly exposed to the asbestos fibers for the entire time you are in your house. Every time you sit in the couch, a little poof of asbestos will come up and you'll breathe it in.
That's why you want a proper job done by a certified asbestos abatement contractor.
Look up how they do it and then decide whether it is a do it yourself project or not.
posted by gjc at 5:34 AM on April 25, 2013 [2 favorites]
The reason is that if it isn't done right, the dust gets into everything and you will be constantly exposed to the asbestos fibers for the entire time you are in your house. Every time you sit in the couch, a little poof of asbestos will come up and you'll breathe it in.
That's why you want a proper job done by a certified asbestos abatement contractor.
Look up how they do it and then decide whether it is a do it yourself project or not.
posted by gjc at 5:34 AM on April 25, 2013 [2 favorites]
I do a lot of DIY projects, and let me tell you, there are a couple of things I don't screw with, electricity and asbestos.
You think you're doing a cost/benefit analysis, but you don't have all the facts. You say that it's only 2%-3% asbestos. Well...how much asbestos is a lot? It turns out anything over 1%.
So right there you have twice to three times the exposure that's considered neutral.
So you get a Pod, move all of your stuff into it temporarily. You and the pets go to Aloft or Marriott Residence Inn for a few days and you let the pros do what they do.
In a year you won't remember what a hassle this was, but trust me, your lungs will thank you.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 7:25 AM on April 25, 2013 [1 favorite]
You think you're doing a cost/benefit analysis, but you don't have all the facts. You say that it's only 2%-3% asbestos. Well...how much asbestos is a lot? It turns out anything over 1%.
So right there you have twice to three times the exposure that's considered neutral.
So you get a Pod, move all of your stuff into it temporarily. You and the pets go to Aloft or Marriott Residence Inn for a few days and you let the pros do what they do.
In a year you won't remember what a hassle this was, but trust me, your lungs will thank you.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 7:25 AM on April 25, 2013 [1 favorite]
Here's a bit of context - the persons who installed your ceiling probably installed hundreds of others, sawing and drilling and cutting without any protection.
Many of those people died of mesothelioma; the occupational risks of mesothelioma include construction workers and tradespeople. Not only that, but many of the women who washed their clothes died of mesothelioma.
I suggest reading about the risk factors of asbestos-related cancers, including governmental guidelines:
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 7:34 AM on April 25, 2013 [4 favorites]
Many of those people died of mesothelioma; the occupational risks of mesothelioma include construction workers and tradespeople. Not only that, but many of the women who washed their clothes died of mesothelioma.
I suggest reading about the risk factors of asbestos-related cancers, including governmental guidelines:
an increased risk of developing mesothelioma was later found among shipyard workers, people who work in asbestos mines and mills, producers of asbestos products, workers in the heating and construction industries, and other tradespeople. Today, the official position of the U.S. Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA) and the U.S. EPA is that protections and "permissible exposure limits" required by U.S. regulations, while adequate to prevent most asbestos-related non-malignant disease, they are not adequate to prevent or protect against asbestos-related cancers such as mesothelioma.[16] Likewise, the British Government's Health and Safety Executive (HSE) states formally that any threshold for mesothelioma must be at a very low level and it is widely agreed that if any such threshold does exist at all, then it cannot currently be quantified. For practical purposes, therefore, HSE assumes that no such "safe" threshold exists. Others have noted as well that there is no evidence of a threshold level below which there is no risk of mesothelioma.[17] There appears to be a linear, dose-response relationship, with increasing dose producing increasing disease.[18] Nevertheless, mesothelioma may be related to brief, low level or indirect exposures to asbestos.[8] The dose necessary for effect appears to be lower for asbestos-induced mesothelioma than for pulmonary asbestosis or lung cancer.[8] Again, there is no known safe level of exposure to asbestos as it relates to increased risk of mesothelioma.I have a relative who has a saying: "That's a problem for Future Dan." This is a pretty common mental trick, pretending like the person who has to deal with the impact of your current choices is a separate person. But in this case, Future Dan may get cancer, or lose his family to cancer, if he doesn't do this right. Whereas Present Dan only has to contend with . . . what, paying some extra money and moving out furniture?
The duration of exposure to asbestos causing mesothelioma can be short. For example, cases of mesothelioma have been documented with only 1–3 months of exposure.[19][20] People who work with asbestos wear personal protective equipment to lower their risk of exposure.
Latency, the time from first exposure to manifestation of disease, is prolonged in the case of mesothelioma. It is virtually never less than fifteen years and peaks at 30–40 years.[8] In a review of occupationally related mesothelioma cases, the median latency was 32 years.[21] Based upon the data from Peto et al., the risk of mesothelioma appears to increase to the third or fourth power from first exposure.[18]
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 7:34 AM on April 25, 2013 [4 favorites]
Response by poster: Once again I appreciate everybody's responses! Some great points made by all here.
posted by ljs30 at 8:17 AM on April 25, 2013
posted by ljs30 at 8:17 AM on April 25, 2013
I'm not going to address the asbestos. You've got a boatload of advice here.
I'm going to address popcorn ceilings. My house had a non-asbestos one in the dining room. Now, I hate popcorn ceilings with a passion and this one started to come down in places. Since I'm a software engineer, I tend to solve problems of this nature with an "area under the curve" approach. My son had recently been born and I was doing the middle of the night feeding, so after he was fed and down, I went to the room and took down a couple square feet of popcorn with a scraper, cleaned up and went back to bed. I did the math and figured that I'd be done in a month. or so.
Then I discovered that the popcorn was coming down because it didn't adhere to the sheet rock so well, but it sure as hell adhered (or maybe cohered) to the joint compound and that shit wouldn't come down.
So I researched and found what professional contractors do to take it down. They don't. They nail up more sheet rock on top of it, tape and paint it. Sheet rock is effing dirt cheap as far as building materials go and every sheet that goes up with no cutting covers 32 square feet. A competent contractor working alone can cover a room's ceiling in half a day or less and have the tape and mud on in the second half (provided they don't have to take down crown molding).
In my case, our house is very old and this section was one of the oldest and the ceilings are 7'4", which is (as it turns out), exactly the minimum allowed by local code, so we had a contractor do the next best thing, which is tear that shit down, sheet rock and all. After they did that, we had some ceiling lights put in too. In you case, you almost certainly do NOT want to do this. Instead, it should only be done by a licensed asbestos removal company.
Check with your state's regulations. If asbestos abatement is anything like lead abatement in Massachusetts, covering it up is almost assuredly the most cost-effective way to handle it and may be acceptable for a homeowner to do.
posted by plinth at 8:31 AM on April 25, 2013 [1 favorite]
I'm going to address popcorn ceilings. My house had a non-asbestos one in the dining room. Now, I hate popcorn ceilings with a passion and this one started to come down in places. Since I'm a software engineer, I tend to solve problems of this nature with an "area under the curve" approach. My son had recently been born and I was doing the middle of the night feeding, so after he was fed and down, I went to the room and took down a couple square feet of popcorn with a scraper, cleaned up and went back to bed. I did the math and figured that I'd be done in a month. or so.
Then I discovered that the popcorn was coming down because it didn't adhere to the sheet rock so well, but it sure as hell adhered (or maybe cohered) to the joint compound and that shit wouldn't come down.
So I researched and found what professional contractors do to take it down. They don't. They nail up more sheet rock on top of it, tape and paint it. Sheet rock is effing dirt cheap as far as building materials go and every sheet that goes up with no cutting covers 32 square feet. A competent contractor working alone can cover a room's ceiling in half a day or less and have the tape and mud on in the second half (provided they don't have to take down crown molding).
In my case, our house is very old and this section was one of the oldest and the ceilings are 7'4", which is (as it turns out), exactly the minimum allowed by local code, so we had a contractor do the next best thing, which is tear that shit down, sheet rock and all. After they did that, we had some ceiling lights put in too. In you case, you almost certainly do NOT want to do this. Instead, it should only be done by a licensed asbestos removal company.
Check with your state's regulations. If asbestos abatement is anything like lead abatement in Massachusetts, covering it up is almost assuredly the most cost-effective way to handle it and may be acceptable for a homeowner to do.
posted by plinth at 8:31 AM on April 25, 2013 [1 favorite]
> What about the drywall idea and what happens when you go to sell and have to disclose?
That's what I did. It wasn't a big deal.
We didn't have it done until after we'd moved out, and I wish we'd done it earlier -- they looked so much better afterwards. Stupid popcorn ceilings. Even if they didn't have asbestos they'd be awful.
posted by The corpse in the library at 7:45 PM on April 27, 2013
That's what I did. It wasn't a big deal.
We didn't have it done until after we'd moved out, and I wish we'd done it earlier -- they looked so much better afterwards. Stupid popcorn ceilings. Even if they didn't have asbestos they'd be awful.
posted by The corpse in the library at 7:45 PM on April 27, 2013
This thread is closed to new comments.
Please do not do this. I am sure that this is a very hard decision, but if you attempt an asbestos removal by yourself, you risk exposing yourself, your family, your pets, and future occupants of the house to danger from airborne asbestos particles that will be in all of the furniture and items that you didn't remove. I suspect that it would have an adverse affect on future sales, probably more so than the contained dry wall solution.
Are there any similar houses on your block? It might make sense to look at how they've treated the issue, or how real estate agents handle the language.
posted by jetlagaddict at 5:38 PM on April 24, 2013 [6 favorites]