Minor food neurosis help needed
April 22, 2013 6:49 PM Subscribe
Can you help me bravely order mussels in restaurants?
I like mussels, and occasionally cook them at home. But I sometimes find myself skeeved out by the cooking of other people and in particular, find it impossible to order mussels in restaurants. The descriptions sound good -- in fact, pretty much like I would make them. But I don't trust them to have bought the mussels that day and to throw out the grody ones and to not have them sitting in a big walk-in cooler in a plastic tub filled with the gray brown water of melted ice that surrounded mussels from last week.
I do like raw oysters, roasted marrow bones, venison, carpaccio, blue cheeses--a whole host of things that some people are probably right to be grossed out by. I'm not overly concerned with germs. I use a wooden cutting board for everything and don't concern myself about it. Why does this thing bother me?
Can you (gently, if you don't mind) suggest an alternate viewpoint that will allow me to order mussels in a restaurant?
I like mussels, and occasionally cook them at home. But I sometimes find myself skeeved out by the cooking of other people and in particular, find it impossible to order mussels in restaurants. The descriptions sound good -- in fact, pretty much like I would make them. But I don't trust them to have bought the mussels that day and to throw out the grody ones and to not have them sitting in a big walk-in cooler in a plastic tub filled with the gray brown water of melted ice that surrounded mussels from last week.
I do like raw oysters, roasted marrow bones, venison, carpaccio, blue cheeses--a whole host of things that some people are probably right to be grossed out by. I'm not overly concerned with germs. I use a wooden cutting board for everything and don't concern myself about it. Why does this thing bother me?
Can you (gently, if you don't mind) suggest an alternate viewpoint that will allow me to order mussels in a restaurant?
Response by poster: Typically, these are places that don't serve oysters (if they have oysters, I'd just order those).
So they're mussel places but not oyster places.
posted by A Terrible Llama at 6:57 PM on April 22, 2013
So they're mussel places but not oyster places.
posted by A Terrible Llama at 6:57 PM on April 22, 2013
Can you (gently, if you don't mind) suggest an alternate viewpoint that will allow me to order mussels in a restaurant?
If they made people sick because of poor food handling practices, they would have been sued into oblivion and gone out of business already. Their yelp reviews would be full of, "I had their mussels and they made me sick."
posted by deanc at 7:02 PM on April 22, 2013 [7 favorites]
If they made people sick because of poor food handling practices, they would have been sued into oblivion and gone out of business already. Their yelp reviews would be full of, "I had their mussels and they made me sick."
posted by deanc at 7:02 PM on April 22, 2013 [7 favorites]
Best answer: I also love mussels, and am also reluctant to order them in restaurants. Less because I'm grossed out or concerned about safety and more because experience has borne out the fact that they often just don't taste very good, and there's no such thing as mediocre mussels--when they're not great, they're gross. Not to discourage you, though! I learned roughly the same thing that jaguar is suggesting above: only order them from a place where I'd feel comfortable ordering oysters or beef tartare (or other "risky" food). Not that it necessarily has to be a place that serves those things, but it has to be a place I know cares about details, quality, and freshness. Sticking to this rule has meant an abundance of fresh, delicious mussel-y goodness for me.
posted by rhiannonstone at 7:03 PM on April 22, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by rhiannonstone at 7:03 PM on April 22, 2013 [1 favorite]
I like all those things you mentioned! I grew up eating mussels all the time and no one in my family has ever gotten sick from them. It's very hard to mask the smell of bad fish, so if you are served mussels that smell fresh they probably are. Just remind yourself that they are cooked and probably safer than eating raw protein. (Said the girl who made bison tartare for dinner.)
posted by Room 641-A at 7:03 PM on April 22, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by Room 641-A at 7:03 PM on April 22, 2013 [1 favorite]
It's all about the restaurant. Try asking the waiter where they get their mussels, how often they get them, and from whom. If these answers don't come immediately to hand, they are probably not the freshest mussels.
posted by Miko at 7:06 PM on April 22, 2013 [4 favorites]
posted by Miko at 7:06 PM on April 22, 2013 [4 favorites]
This won't assuage your fears necessarily, but my understanding is that not all restaurants get (sea)food deliveries on the weekends. Granted, this understanding comes from one of Anthony Bourdain's books, so who knows what's really true, but maybe call ahead and ask when/where they get their mussels? And similar to the comments above, if you don't trust them to be honest, you might not want to have mussels there.
posted by matildatakesovertheworld at 7:07 PM on April 22, 2013
posted by matildatakesovertheworld at 7:07 PM on April 22, 2013
(And would it help to have suggestions for specific restaurants? If so, and if you're willing to share your location, you may get some suggestions.)
posted by rhiannonstone at 7:08 PM on April 22, 2013
posted by rhiannonstone at 7:08 PM on April 22, 2013
ya i'd say use the rules any traveler lives by, one of which is:
don't order seafood that isn't deep fried if you can't drive to the sea in a few hours time. period.
someone will argue this point re "flying them in" etc but if you are eating at a place that does that i'm sure you are less skeeved. I am reading your question as: in a "normal" restaurant help me get over mussels. so i would say test the waters with a toe. get a rare steak, or some rare ahi tuna etc etc and see how the quality looks and feels.... if its ''barnacle bills" go deepfried but if its "chez medium priced non-chain" i'd say with consideration of the above rule go for it.
essentially this, from miko, is it:
It's all about the restaurant. Try asking the waiter where they get their mussels, how often they get them, and from whom. If these answers don't come immediately to hand, they are probably not the freshest mussels.
posted by chasles at 7:16 PM on April 22, 2013
don't order seafood that isn't deep fried if you can't drive to the sea in a few hours time. period.
someone will argue this point re "flying them in" etc but if you are eating at a place that does that i'm sure you are less skeeved. I am reading your question as: in a "normal" restaurant help me get over mussels. so i would say test the waters with a toe. get a rare steak, or some rare ahi tuna etc etc and see how the quality looks and feels.... if its ''barnacle bills" go deepfried but if its "chez medium priced non-chain" i'd say with consideration of the above rule go for it.
essentially this, from miko, is it:
It's all about the restaurant. Try asking the waiter where they get their mussels, how often they get them, and from whom. If these answers don't come immediately to hand, they are probably not the freshest mussels.
posted by chasles at 7:16 PM on April 22, 2013
Your profile doesn't indicate where you live, but I live in the Midwest and have no problem ordering mussels in restaurants where I'd also order the sketchy things you list that you like and might order in restaurants. I'd also add sushi to that. I know for a fact that the fish gets to where I live a mere few hours later than it gets to the coastal city where I used to live. Such is the wonder of modern living.
posted by padraigin at 7:22 PM on April 22, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by padraigin at 7:22 PM on April 22, 2013 [1 favorite]
If they made people sick because of poor food handling practices, they would have been sued into oblivion and gone out of business already. Their yelp reviews would be full of, "I had their mussels and they made me sick."
Seconding this. Your average city board of health is going to be WAAAAAY stricter on a restaurant than they are on your average house; it is your local city's board of health's job to make sure that a restaurant doesn't do any of the things you're afraid they're doing with mussels. Therefore, if the board of health hasn't shut them down, they are practicing safe food handling procedures.
If you still aren't convinced, then another compromise to do is: read a menu and make mental notes as to the restaurant's preparation technique, and then try it your own self at home.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:34 PM on April 22, 2013
Seconding this. Your average city board of health is going to be WAAAAAY stricter on a restaurant than they are on your average house; it is your local city's board of health's job to make sure that a restaurant doesn't do any of the things you're afraid they're doing with mussels. Therefore, if the board of health hasn't shut them down, they are practicing safe food handling procedures.
If you still aren't convinced, then another compromise to do is: read a menu and make mental notes as to the restaurant's preparation technique, and then try it your own self at home.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:34 PM on April 22, 2013
don't order seafood that isn't deep fried if you can't drive to the sea in a few hours time. period.
This is fine in unfamiliar territory. But in the case of mussels (which are generally freshwater, so the sea does not signify, but largely endangered so what you're eating almost anywhere are probably Asian) in North America, unless you are in un-protected mussel territory (where they do taste best) you're probably getting highly-vetted decent frozen Sysco (or similar) mussels. As long as they don't get overcooked (certainly an untasty risk), if they can prepare them to taste good they're likely as safe and well-handled as the ones you cook at home.
My attitude towards mussels in the US is the same as shrimp: certainly possible to mis-handle, but there are easier things to leave out too long. I'm probably more suspicious of chicken than I am mussels in restaurants, except that they're easy to overcook and make rubbery and unpleasant.
I guess it depends on your tolerance level. I mean, yeah, I live in San Diego, the ocean is right over there, but I know there's no salmon or tuna in my neighborhood and I still eat sake and ahi at the sushi bar. FedEx knows what they're doing.
posted by Lyn Never at 8:00 PM on April 22, 2013 [1 favorite]
This is fine in unfamiliar territory. But in the case of mussels (which are generally freshwater, so the sea does not signify, but largely endangered so what you're eating almost anywhere are probably Asian) in North America, unless you are in un-protected mussel territory (where they do taste best) you're probably getting highly-vetted decent frozen Sysco (or similar) mussels. As long as they don't get overcooked (certainly an untasty risk), if they can prepare them to taste good they're likely as safe and well-handled as the ones you cook at home.
My attitude towards mussels in the US is the same as shrimp: certainly possible to mis-handle, but there are easier things to leave out too long. I'm probably more suspicious of chicken than I am mussels in restaurants, except that they're easy to overcook and make rubbery and unpleasant.
I guess it depends on your tolerance level. I mean, yeah, I live in San Diego, the ocean is right over there, but I know there's no salmon or tuna in my neighborhood and I still eat sake and ahi at the sushi bar. FedEx knows what they're doing.
posted by Lyn Never at 8:00 PM on April 22, 2013 [1 favorite]
What Miko said. I have worked in many restaurants and almost every restaurant in any given town is only supplied by a handful I suppliers or distributors (this is true even in nyc where I live). Ask a restaurant where they get them and then research the source to see if it meets your standards.
posted by greta simone at 8:04 PM on April 22, 2013
posted by greta simone at 8:04 PM on April 22, 2013
- You could ask to look at how they are storing their mussels in their walk-in. Really!. Just be sure to make this request when they are NOT busy.
- You definitely can ask to see the "shell fish tag." The server might not know what this is, but the GM, owner, and cooks will. It's the tag that comes with every batch of shellfish declaring harvest date, location of harvest, and supply company - and it must be kept on file for 6 months or so.
Now. Shellfish live for about 1 to 3 weeks after harvest depending on species and storage conditions, but generally, a harvest date within 7 days and you're OK with most shellfish. Plus, they tell you when they are dead or dying with smell and open shells that don't snap shut upon being jostled - so there's that.
LASTLY, AND MOST IMPORTANTLY FOR YOU
Mussels would be dead in a half hour if they were stored on melting ice. Fresh water kills them. Your restaurant is likely not storing mussels this way. Really. It's practically impossible because it's that stupid.
Undoubtedly, your mussels are stored in mesh bags loaded into bus tubs in a cold walk-in, and this is a fine way to store them, provided the walk-in is cold enough.
Were I you.... I'd sit at the bar of my target restaurant, make friends with the staff, tip well over a few visits, and then ask for a tour of the kitchen. Or some variation on that.
Don't be shy. It'll be fine anywhere they have nothing to hide.
Bon apetit!
posted by jbenben at 8:09 PM on April 22, 2013 [5 favorites]
- You definitely can ask to see the "shell fish tag." The server might not know what this is, but the GM, owner, and cooks will. It's the tag that comes with every batch of shellfish declaring harvest date, location of harvest, and supply company - and it must be kept on file for 6 months or so.
Now. Shellfish live for about 1 to 3 weeks after harvest depending on species and storage conditions, but generally, a harvest date within 7 days and you're OK with most shellfish. Plus, they tell you when they are dead or dying with smell and open shells that don't snap shut upon being jostled - so there's that.
LASTLY, AND MOST IMPORTANTLY FOR YOU
Mussels would be dead in a half hour if they were stored on melting ice. Fresh water kills them. Your restaurant is likely not storing mussels this way. Really. It's practically impossible because it's that stupid.
Undoubtedly, your mussels are stored in mesh bags loaded into bus tubs in a cold walk-in, and this is a fine way to store them, provided the walk-in is cold enough.
Were I you.... I'd sit at the bar of my target restaurant, make friends with the staff, tip well over a few visits, and then ask for a tour of the kitchen. Or some variation on that.
Don't be shy. It'll be fine anywhere they have nothing to hide.
Bon apetit!
posted by jbenben at 8:09 PM on April 22, 2013 [5 favorites]
For the record, I'm talking about places that serve mussels from fresh.
I've never seen Sysco frozen black mussels. Frozen NZ Green Lipped Mussels individually flash frozen (IQF) on the half shell? Sure! I have 5lbs in my freezer right now. They don't travel well alive, frankly, and prefer them IQF. I mean, I'm sure someone freezes black mussel for some purpose, but I doubt this would be done in the whole shell, even if frozen black mussels were commonly available.
I see fresh water mussels when I am canoing or kayaking rivers. I've only bought, sold and eaten mussels from the salty salty sea. I guess YMMV, but I'm pretty sure if you are getting (likely cultivated) fresh water mussels at a restaurant, they would be labeled as such.
I think the default assumption is that mussels on offer are live and from the sea... But I'm off to google. If I don't update the thread, it's because I'm right that you're assuredly getting salty sea water mussels unless otherwise specified.
Hope this all helps.
posted by jbenben at 8:23 PM on April 22, 2013
I've never seen Sysco frozen black mussels. Frozen NZ Green Lipped Mussels individually flash frozen (IQF) on the half shell? Sure! I have 5lbs in my freezer right now. They don't travel well alive, frankly, and prefer them IQF. I mean, I'm sure someone freezes black mussel for some purpose, but I doubt this would be done in the whole shell, even if frozen black mussels were commonly available.
I see fresh water mussels when I am canoing or kayaking rivers. I've only bought, sold and eaten mussels from the salty salty sea. I guess YMMV, but I'm pretty sure if you are getting (likely cultivated) fresh water mussels at a restaurant, they would be labeled as such.
I think the default assumption is that mussels on offer are live and from the sea... But I'm off to google. If I don't update the thread, it's because I'm right that you're assuredly getting salty sea water mussels unless otherwise specified.
Hope this all helps.
posted by jbenben at 8:23 PM on April 22, 2013
Oof!! Some confusion between "fresh" as in alive and not previously frozen mussels vs "freshwater" mussels in my previous answers.
When I wrote, "For the record, I'm talking about places that serve mussels from fresh," I mean that I'm talking about restaurants that serve fresh and not previously frozen mussels.
Sorry for any confusion.
Furthermore...
- Freshwater mussels are not cultivated for consumption, quote from Wikipedia at the bottom. I did google a lot to make certain of this.
- Shut The Front Door! You can get black and blue shelled frozen whole shell mussels from Asia! I'm still not convinced this is a common thing restaurants are duping people with based on my experience BOH, FOH, and dealing with seafood suppliers. Anyway, better restaurants will always say the mussels are "fresh" (as in "not frozen") and which waters the mussels are coming from right on the menu, so that's that sorted.
From Wikipedia:
"Freshwater mussels nowadays are generally considered to be unpalatable, though the native peoples in North America ate them extensively."
posted by jbenben at 9:32 PM on April 22, 2013
When I wrote, "For the record, I'm talking about places that serve mussels from fresh," I mean that I'm talking about restaurants that serve fresh and not previously frozen mussels.
Sorry for any confusion.
Furthermore...
- Freshwater mussels are not cultivated for consumption, quote from Wikipedia at the bottom. I did google a lot to make certain of this.
- Shut The Front Door! You can get black and blue shelled frozen whole shell mussels from Asia! I'm still not convinced this is a common thing restaurants are duping people with based on my experience BOH, FOH, and dealing with seafood suppliers. Anyway, better restaurants will always say the mussels are "fresh" (as in "not frozen") and which waters the mussels are coming from right on the menu, so that's that sorted.
From Wikipedia:
"Freshwater mussels nowadays are generally considered to be unpalatable, though the native peoples in North America ate them extensively."
posted by jbenben at 9:32 PM on April 22, 2013
Response by poster: there's no such thing as mediocre mussels--when they're not great, they're gross.
Yeah, that's kind of what I was thinking. Also, if I had one really gross mussel, I'd probably never go near one again.
I'm in western New England. The restaurants aren't overly fancy, but aren't chains either. Mid-range, I guess? I see people ordering mussels and they don't look like the sort of people whose lives are a serious of endlessly bad decisions, but at the same time I just have this feeling of 'I couldn't do that' and I started to feel like maybe I'm being unreasonable.
I feel like in most of these places if I asked a waiter, it's almost certain they'd have no idea and would have to go off to the kitchen and ask and then they'd come back and say 'Canada' and and in the interim I'd have decided I wanted something else anyway. It's a rural area with a lot of college students so waitstaff turnover tends to be high.
Oddly I'm walking away with the sense that I shouldn't order mussels unless I'm in a fancy place. Overall the answers kind of make me feel like I'm actually not being unreasonable.
I like 'if I'd order oysters here, I'll order mussels here' because in most of these places I would not, in fact, order oysters, and furthermore, they don't sell them, which seems a good enough tell in terms of their ability to manage seafood that has to be very fresh.
So I'll just be on the lookout for someday finding a place I feel comfortable ordering mussels in.
Thanks everyone.
posted by A Terrible Llama at 2:48 AM on April 23, 2013 [1 favorite]
Yeah, that's kind of what I was thinking. Also, if I had one really gross mussel, I'd probably never go near one again.
I'm in western New England. The restaurants aren't overly fancy, but aren't chains either. Mid-range, I guess? I see people ordering mussels and they don't look like the sort of people whose lives are a serious of endlessly bad decisions, but at the same time I just have this feeling of 'I couldn't do that' and I started to feel like maybe I'm being unreasonable.
I feel like in most of these places if I asked a waiter, it's almost certain they'd have no idea and would have to go off to the kitchen and ask and then they'd come back and say 'Canada' and and in the interim I'd have decided I wanted something else anyway. It's a rural area with a lot of college students so waitstaff turnover tends to be high.
Oddly I'm walking away with the sense that I shouldn't order mussels unless I'm in a fancy place. Overall the answers kind of make me feel like I'm actually not being unreasonable.
I like 'if I'd order oysters here, I'll order mussels here' because in most of these places I would not, in fact, order oysters, and furthermore, they don't sell them, which seems a good enough tell in terms of their ability to manage seafood that has to be very fresh.
So I'll just be on the lookout for someday finding a place I feel comfortable ordering mussels in.
Thanks everyone.
posted by A Terrible Llama at 2:48 AM on April 23, 2013 [1 favorite]
I see people ordering mussels and they don't look like the sort of people whose lives are a serious of endlessly bad decisions, but at the same time I just have this feeling of 'I couldn't do that' and I started to feel like maybe I'm being unreasonable.
They're not getting sick from the muscles. What makes you believe that you are somehow special and will get sick from them when other people aren't?
Your decisionmaking has an inherent contradiction in it-- on one hand you think your overabundance of caution will protect you. On the other hand, you seem to think your sense of caution makes you more vulnerable because you will end up being exposed to a danger that no one else seems to face even though they are less cautious than you are.
posted by deanc at 4:58 AM on April 23, 2013 [1 favorite]
They're not getting sick from the muscles. What makes you believe that you are somehow special and will get sick from them when other people aren't?
Your decisionmaking has an inherent contradiction in it-- on one hand you think your overabundance of caution will protect you. On the other hand, you seem to think your sense of caution makes you more vulnerable because you will end up being exposed to a danger that no one else seems to face even though they are less cautious than you are.
posted by deanc at 4:58 AM on April 23, 2013 [1 favorite]
Hmmm.
I feel like in most of these places if I asked a waiter, it's almost certain they'd have no idea and would have to go off to the kitchen and ask and then they'd come back and say 'Canada' and and in the interim I'd have decided I wanted something else anyway. It's a rural area with a lot of college students so waitstaff turnover tends to be high.
I'm not understanding why the waiter not knowing the answer to where the mussels come from is a red flag to you. Can you explain?
Oddly I'm walking away with the sense that I shouldn't order mussels unless I'm in a fancy place. Overall the answers kind of make me feel like I'm actually not being unreasonable.
Can you also explain exactly is meant by "fancy" here? I get mussels in pubs all the time, and they sure aren't fancy. And I'm in New York. (As a matter of fact, that's why I get mussels - they are the only reliable seafood I can get that stands up to my raised-in-New-England standards; but my concerns there are entirely about taste and not illness.) I can see why you'd be worried about a greasy-spoon diner offering mussels, but not, like, a pub. They can be just as safe as the white-tablecloth kinds of places.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 5:52 AM on April 23, 2013
I feel like in most of these places if I asked a waiter, it's almost certain they'd have no idea and would have to go off to the kitchen and ask and then they'd come back and say 'Canada' and and in the interim I'd have decided I wanted something else anyway. It's a rural area with a lot of college students so waitstaff turnover tends to be high.
I'm not understanding why the waiter not knowing the answer to where the mussels come from is a red flag to you. Can you explain?
Oddly I'm walking away with the sense that I shouldn't order mussels unless I'm in a fancy place. Overall the answers kind of make me feel like I'm actually not being unreasonable.
Can you also explain exactly is meant by "fancy" here? I get mussels in pubs all the time, and they sure aren't fancy. And I'm in New York. (As a matter of fact, that's why I get mussels - they are the only reliable seafood I can get that stands up to my raised-in-New-England standards; but my concerns there are entirely about taste and not illness.) I can see why you'd be worried about a greasy-spoon diner offering mussels, but not, like, a pub. They can be just as safe as the white-tablecloth kinds of places.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 5:52 AM on April 23, 2013
I feel like in most of these places if I asked a waiter, it's almost certain they'd have no idea and would have to go off to the kitchen and ask and then they'd come back and say 'Canada' and and in the interim I'd have decided I wanted something else anyway.
See, I wouldn't eat mussels somewhere where that happens. Like I said, if they don't know specifically, they aren't taking much care with them.
As far as "fancy," though, I agree with the Empress. All over coastal New England you can get mussels for like 10 bucks in dockside places, tourist places, Italian restaurants, and pubs. They're really not fancy. The thing is that they know where they get the mussels because they care about them and their audience cares about seafood and their supply chain is pretty transparent.
So my "ask them" comes from long waitressing experience, and the rationale goes like this:
1. If people at that restaurant care about good seafood they ask this question a lot.
2. If waitstaff at that restaurant hear this question a lot they will learn the answer and it will come to mind readily.
3. If the restaurant is proud that it goes to the trouble to source seafood well, it wants you to know this and will share the information happily.
So you can pretty much tell with one question.
posted by Miko at 6:03 AM on April 23, 2013
See, I wouldn't eat mussels somewhere where that happens. Like I said, if they don't know specifically, they aren't taking much care with them.
As far as "fancy," though, I agree with the Empress. All over coastal New England you can get mussels for like 10 bucks in dockside places, tourist places, Italian restaurants, and pubs. They're really not fancy. The thing is that they know where they get the mussels because they care about them and their audience cares about seafood and their supply chain is pretty transparent.
So my "ask them" comes from long waitressing experience, and the rationale goes like this:
1. If people at that restaurant care about good seafood they ask this question a lot.
2. If waitstaff at that restaurant hear this question a lot they will learn the answer and it will come to mind readily.
3. If the restaurant is proud that it goes to the trouble to source seafood well, it wants you to know this and will share the information happily.
So you can pretty much tell with one question.
posted by Miko at 6:03 AM on April 23, 2013
I'm kind of with you. I'm super picky about mussles and if I can't feed them in my own flour water before cleaning and eating them, I'm not all that interested.
Just get a shrimp cocktail at the restaurant and cook your own mussles at home.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 8:45 AM on April 23, 2013
Just get a shrimp cocktail at the restaurant and cook your own mussles at home.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 8:45 AM on April 23, 2013
This thread is closed to new comments.
If you don't trust them for raw oysters, then we're kind of talking about a different issue.
Can you clarify?
posted by jaguar at 6:53 PM on April 22, 2013