Explaining "you're not welcome" to family?
April 18, 2013 7:22 AM Subscribe
How do you explain to your mother-in-law that you don't want some of her family around? Trigger Warning: abuse.
A few years ago I found out there was incest occurring for over several years in my husband's sibling's family. After bringing my concerns about it to my husband's sibling, I was told that it was being addressed. "Being addressed" meant the sibling and sibling's spouse ostracizing their older child who was responsible and supposedly getting therapy for their younger child who was the victim. Only one other family member of my husband knows about this, I only told her because I had concerns for her child and wanted to run my conversation by her before confronting the sibling. The rest of the family doesn't know about it for fear of upsetting my mother-in-law.
Because this skeleton is being hidden in the closet, there are a lot of questions left unanswered: which child initiated it, were other children in sibling's family affected, were other nieces and nephews affected, are both the initiator and the victim getting help, what's being done to make sure this doesn't happen again, etc.
I'm bothered by this because: a) I have history of abuse in my childhood and this type of secret-keeping didn't help any. b) I have a young child, and I don't want sibling's kids near my child. c) I don't want to support any family branch that wants to sweep something like this under the rug. It's not acceptable to me. Yes, my husband thinks its not acceptable as well.
Here's the rub: Husband and I recently bought a house, and although we live several hours away, there has been some expectation that we will host a family event soon. I'm steadfast in not inviting sibling's family into our home, and we don't accept invitations to theirs. How do we express why sibling's family is personae non gratae if the sibling doesn't want to tell mother-in-law what happened when mother-in-law asks us why we aren't hosting events?
A few years ago I found out there was incest occurring for over several years in my husband's sibling's family. After bringing my concerns about it to my husband's sibling, I was told that it was being addressed. "Being addressed" meant the sibling and sibling's spouse ostracizing their older child who was responsible and supposedly getting therapy for their younger child who was the victim. Only one other family member of my husband knows about this, I only told her because I had concerns for her child and wanted to run my conversation by her before confronting the sibling. The rest of the family doesn't know about it for fear of upsetting my mother-in-law.
Because this skeleton is being hidden in the closet, there are a lot of questions left unanswered: which child initiated it, were other children in sibling's family affected, were other nieces and nephews affected, are both the initiator and the victim getting help, what's being done to make sure this doesn't happen again, etc.
I'm bothered by this because: a) I have history of abuse in my childhood and this type of secret-keeping didn't help any. b) I have a young child, and I don't want sibling's kids near my child. c) I don't want to support any family branch that wants to sweep something like this under the rug. It's not acceptable to me. Yes, my husband thinks its not acceptable as well.
Here's the rub: Husband and I recently bought a house, and although we live several hours away, there has been some expectation that we will host a family event soon. I'm steadfast in not inviting sibling's family into our home, and we don't accept invitations to theirs. How do we express why sibling's family is personae non gratae if the sibling doesn't want to tell mother-in-law what happened when mother-in-law asks us why we aren't hosting events?
To make this clear, your husband's neice or nephew molested their younger sister or brother. Is that correct?
I know this may sound strange but, for the sake of the victim, I would not make this family into pariahs. When a victim of family sexual abuse speaks out it's often with great fear that they will harm their family. If they find out that the family is being outcast due to their accusations, it could be really devastating. Older child cannot be left unsupervised and I wouldn't keep them as overnight guests but I guess I'd urge you to rethink your stance.
posted by amanda at 7:29 AM on April 18, 2013 [7 favorites]
I know this may sound strange but, for the sake of the victim, I would not make this family into pariahs. When a victim of family sexual abuse speaks out it's often with great fear that they will harm their family. If they find out that the family is being outcast due to their accusations, it could be really devastating. Older child cannot be left unsupervised and I wouldn't keep them as overnight guests but I guess I'd urge you to rethink your stance.
posted by amanda at 7:29 AM on April 18, 2013 [7 favorites]
Response by poster: @amanda: Yes, my husband's niece/nephew molested their own younger sister/brother.
Yes, I thought about how this may impact of the victim. The tricky part here is that we don't know for certain who initiated it. Based on the personalities of the children and past history of manipulation, the person who we consider the victim could be the initiator. To be clear, I don't want to blame the victim *at all* but we have some concerns that this may be more complex than it seems. There could very well be a third party that we're unaware of that triggered this inter-family incest as well. We just don't know.
posted by msladygrey at 7:39 AM on April 18, 2013
Yes, I thought about how this may impact of the victim. The tricky part here is that we don't know for certain who initiated it. Based on the personalities of the children and past history of manipulation, the person who we consider the victim could be the initiator. To be clear, I don't want to blame the victim *at all* but we have some concerns that this may be more complex than it seems. There could very well be a third party that we're unaware of that triggered this inter-family incest as well. We just don't know.
posted by msladygrey at 7:39 AM on April 18, 2013
I don't know why you feel compelled to keep this secret. Just because your husband's sibling doesn't want to discuss it, doesn't mean that you have to abide by his/her decision.
You can discuss with the sibling why you're not comfortable having them stay at your house, and tell them that they're the ones who have to explain to MIL.
Or you can just not invite them, and when MIL asks about it, you can tell her, "There are issues there that I'm not comfortable bringing into my house." If she can't leave it alone, have her take it up with her child.
I'm sort of in agreement that barring these folks from the event is sort of a Scarlet Letter approach to the issue.
Again, I'm all for discussing your discomfort/disgust/fear with the sibling (better yet have your husband do it). "Bro/Sis, I really want to include you in the event, but given what I know about the abuse, I'm uncomfortable about including your family. On one hand, I want to protect my children and any other children from the abuser, but on the other, I don't want to punish the victim or the rest of the family. If I had a better understanding of what steps were taken, or what actually happened, I might feel better about it. As it stands now though, I'd prefer it if you would voluntarily absent yourself from the event and make your excuses to MIL. If you're not willing to do that, then I'm afraid that I just won't invite you."
I don't know if there's anything that the Sibling can tell you that would make you feel comfortable with having them at the event, but if there is, I'd encourage you to prudently include them. Why punish the whole family, including the victim? (Whoever that would be?)
If these people are just a FUBAR hot mess, then don't invite them, and let the chips fall where they may.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 7:49 AM on April 18, 2013 [1 favorite]
You can discuss with the sibling why you're not comfortable having them stay at your house, and tell them that they're the ones who have to explain to MIL.
Or you can just not invite them, and when MIL asks about it, you can tell her, "There are issues there that I'm not comfortable bringing into my house." If she can't leave it alone, have her take it up with her child.
I'm sort of in agreement that barring these folks from the event is sort of a Scarlet Letter approach to the issue.
Again, I'm all for discussing your discomfort/disgust/fear with the sibling (better yet have your husband do it). "Bro/Sis, I really want to include you in the event, but given what I know about the abuse, I'm uncomfortable about including your family. On one hand, I want to protect my children and any other children from the abuser, but on the other, I don't want to punish the victim or the rest of the family. If I had a better understanding of what steps were taken, or what actually happened, I might feel better about it. As it stands now though, I'd prefer it if you would voluntarily absent yourself from the event and make your excuses to MIL. If you're not willing to do that, then I'm afraid that I just won't invite you."
I don't know if there's anything that the Sibling can tell you that would make you feel comfortable with having them at the event, but if there is, I'd encourage you to prudently include them. Why punish the whole family, including the victim? (Whoever that would be?)
If these people are just a FUBAR hot mess, then don't invite them, and let the chips fall where they may.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 7:49 AM on April 18, 2013 [1 favorite]
Why is the main focus on not upsetting your MIL? A child has been abused - and I'm really uncomfortable with your question on who "initiated" it (the abuser is the abuser is the abuser) - should that not be the main focus? Has your MIL not noticed that one of her grandchildren has been ostracized? Or that you have been refusing to visit her son/daughter's house for a few years? Why has this not been discussed family-wide? Why has your husband let it be this way if he thinks its not acceptable to sweep it under the carpet? I have no idea how old either of the children were, but clearly both need some kind of intervention/therapy and you are doing neither of them any favours by ignoring it all in case you upset someone.
Also, have you considered that she may want to know? If it was your grandchildren, would you want to know? And when your children are older and find out about this awful thing that was buried by you as much as their aunt/uncle, what message is that? "We knew that your cousin was abused, and we had concerns about how and why it happened, but we just ignored them all until your Grandma died in case we upset her?" I really don't understand. The older child may have been abused, the younger child definitely was, and these children belong to your family, not just your husband's. This needs to be dealt with openly NOW.
posted by billiebee at 8:28 AM on April 18, 2013 [17 favorites]
Also, have you considered that she may want to know? If it was your grandchildren, would you want to know? And when your children are older and find out about this awful thing that was buried by you as much as their aunt/uncle, what message is that? "We knew that your cousin was abused, and we had concerns about how and why it happened, but we just ignored them all until your Grandma died in case we upset her?" I really don't understand. The older child may have been abused, the younger child definitely was, and these children belong to your family, not just your husband's. This needs to be dealt with openly NOW.
posted by billiebee at 8:28 AM on April 18, 2013 [17 favorites]
Personally, I'd go ahead and say something like, "We believe that Sibling and Spouse allowed Nephew to harm Niece, and we're not satisfied that they've taken the situation seriously. We've talked to them about the situation, and we don't want them near our kids."
But if you're dead set on not telling MIL yourselves, perhaps something like, "We're concerned about our kids' safety, given some of the choices Sibling and Spouse have made regarding their kids' behavior. We've spoken to Sibling and Spouse about it and decided we couldn't reach an agreement. You're welcome to talk to Sibling about it, but I don't think this is something we can resolve."
All that said, I'd also like to suggest that you call the local child protective services agency for your sibling's area. It sounds like neither kid in that family is actually getting the help they need and deserve, and if you're going to go along with not airing it to the extended family, I think you should at least talk to some third party who could potentially intervene on the kids' behalf.
posted by Meg_Murry at 8:54 AM on April 18, 2013 [2 favorites]
But if you're dead set on not telling MIL yourselves, perhaps something like, "We're concerned about our kids' safety, given some of the choices Sibling and Spouse have made regarding their kids' behavior. We've spoken to Sibling and Spouse about it and decided we couldn't reach an agreement. You're welcome to talk to Sibling about it, but I don't think this is something we can resolve."
All that said, I'd also like to suggest that you call the local child protective services agency for your sibling's area. It sounds like neither kid in that family is actually getting the help they need and deserve, and if you're going to go along with not airing it to the extended family, I think you should at least talk to some third party who could potentially intervene on the kids' behalf.
posted by Meg_Murry at 8:54 AM on April 18, 2013 [2 favorites]
You absolutely have a right to protect your house from having this (whatever "this" is: molestation? rape? incest?) brought into it.
You do not have an obligation to unpack this for your MIL. You also don't have any obligation to keep it hidden. You seem to be caught up in where the blame lies, if there should even be blame, what happened, etc. etc. It is not your job to figure this out in order to explain to your MIL. Your job is to keep the explanation simple and refuse to speculate or wade into the mud.
I think saying something along the lines of, "You need to talk to [sibling] about that." and refusing to say anything more is the right path.
posted by Betelgeuse at 8:59 AM on April 18, 2013 [1 favorite]
You do not have an obligation to unpack this for your MIL. You also don't have any obligation to keep it hidden. You seem to be caught up in where the blame lies, if there should even be blame, what happened, etc. etc. It is not your job to figure this out in order to explain to your MIL. Your job is to keep the explanation simple and refuse to speculate or wade into the mud.
I think saying something along the lines of, "You need to talk to [sibling] about that." and refusing to say anything more is the right path.
posted by Betelgeuse at 8:59 AM on April 18, 2013 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: @billiebee: The sibling's concerned about upsetting their mother. Personally, I don't care about upsetting people. I'd rather this all be out in the open. Sure, I'd rather not cause a rift where we're ostracized for pushing for full disclosure, but if that happens, it happens. It's not a secret in our house.
Yes, the point is that a child has been abused, possibly more than one. We've been told that one child was receiving therapy. It's complex. A few years ago, when I pushed for details from the sibling about how specifics, I was shut down with "It's being addressed." I can't say why the MIL hasn't noticed that the older child isn't around. I figure she thinks he's busy. Regarding not visiting the sibling's house, we conveniently schedule conflicts with any event they have. Plus, we have lived far enough away where not making regular visits is not unusual.
Why hasn't it been discussed family-wide? Because sibling doesn't want to upset the MIL and sibling thinks no more discussion is necessary. I don't want to be part of their secret-keeping but I also don't want to be the family investigator/discloser. Because of my history, it's too much of an emotional mine field for me.
posted by msladygrey at 9:27 AM on April 18, 2013
Yes, the point is that a child has been abused, possibly more than one. We've been told that one child was receiving therapy. It's complex. A few years ago, when I pushed for details from the sibling about how specifics, I was shut down with "It's being addressed." I can't say why the MIL hasn't noticed that the older child isn't around. I figure she thinks he's busy. Regarding not visiting the sibling's house, we conveniently schedule conflicts with any event they have. Plus, we have lived far enough away where not making regular visits is not unusual.
Why hasn't it been discussed family-wide? Because sibling doesn't want to upset the MIL and sibling thinks no more discussion is necessary. I don't want to be part of their secret-keeping but I also don't want to be the family investigator/discloser. Because of my history, it's too much of an emotional mine field for me.
posted by msladygrey at 9:27 AM on April 18, 2013
I want to strongly urge you to consider calling children's aid. You can call anonymously and they can advise you as to 1) whether a report should be made and 2) what kind of resources are avaiilable, both for their family and for yours.
I also don't think that keeping this a secret will be the best course of action. Things under rugs fester. Things in the open can be addressed. That said, I understand that you may have more complex reasons for keeping your MIL out of the loop. I think that you can say something like "we don't agrre with their choices and we don't want them around our family. We don't trust them, and we have good reasons". If she pushes, you could refer her to them if she wants a more detailed explaination.
Edit: b/c of your update, I think that you should feel free to be honest with your MIL. You don't agree with the secret keeping and don't mind upsetting her. You don't need to be involved any further after that- tell her that you're going to fill her in, and make leaving it at that a firm boundary.
posted by windykites at 9:30 AM on April 18, 2013 [1 favorite]
I also don't think that keeping this a secret will be the best course of action. Things under rugs fester. Things in the open can be addressed. That said, I understand that you may have more complex reasons for keeping your MIL out of the loop. I think that you can say something like "we don't agrre with their choices and we don't want them around our family. We don't trust them, and we have good reasons". If she pushes, you could refer her to them if she wants a more detailed explaination.
Edit: b/c of your update, I think that you should feel free to be honest with your MIL. You don't agree with the secret keeping and don't mind upsetting her. You don't need to be involved any further after that- tell her that you're going to fill her in, and make leaving it at that a firm boundary.
posted by windykites at 9:30 AM on April 18, 2013 [1 favorite]
This is completely wild, and very difficult to comprehend from the outside.
I wrote the above to remind you that this is not at all complex. A crime has been committed and an investigation needs to be made. It is not at all a private issue, which can be kept in the family or in parts of the family. I understand you need to talk about this with your husband, but the correct thing to do is contact police and/or child protective services.
It is true that when you do that, very dramatic and chaotic things will happen, including that MIL will know. But a family culture of lies and abuse is a constant state of drama and chaos, for both victims and perpetrators. In real life, it can't get any worse, only better.
posted by mumimor at 9:33 AM on April 18, 2013 [1 favorite]
I wrote the above to remind you that this is not at all complex. A crime has been committed and an investigation needs to be made. It is not at all a private issue, which can be kept in the family or in parts of the family. I understand you need to talk about this with your husband, but the correct thing to do is contact police and/or child protective services.
It is true that when you do that, very dramatic and chaotic things will happen, including that MIL will know. But a family culture of lies and abuse is a constant state of drama and chaos, for both victims and perpetrators. In real life, it can't get any worse, only better.
posted by mumimor at 9:33 AM on April 18, 2013 [1 favorite]
Sorry- honest with her if she asks.
posted by windykites at 9:34 AM on April 18, 2013
posted by windykites at 9:34 AM on April 18, 2013
Response by poster: Unfortunately, because no one is talking about the details, I don't know if CPS was called in the past since there were therapists involved, and they have a duty to report.
Either way, thanks for the feedback. I have a lot to mull over.
posted by msladygrey at 10:30 AM on April 18, 2013
Either way, thanks for the feedback. I have a lot to mull over.
posted by msladygrey at 10:30 AM on April 18, 2013
I don't know if CPS was called in the past since there were therapists involved, and they have a duty to report.
If you don't know if CPS was involved, then you should tell them.
If they already know, they'll add your info to the case file.
If they DON'T already know, well, now they know.
You are not a mandated reporter, but you have a duty (as a human) to do what is in your power to protect children from harm.
Imagine if someone knew that your child was being sexually abused, someone knew, but didn't call CPS.
posted by anastasiav at 11:15 AM on April 18, 2013 [1 favorite]
If you don't know if CPS was involved, then you should tell them.
If they already know, they'll add your info to the case file.
If they DON'T already know, well, now they know.
You are not a mandated reporter, but you have a duty (as a human) to do what is in your power to protect children from harm.
Imagine if someone knew that your child was being sexually abused, someone knew, but didn't call CPS.
posted by anastasiav at 11:15 AM on April 18, 2013 [1 favorite]
Best answer: ... when mother-in-law asks us why we aren't hosting events?
The answer is simply, as always, "That won't be possible." You can suggest an alternate venue in your neck of the woods that does not require you to be the host. You don't actually owe anyone an explanation on why you don't want to host a bunch of people in your home.
If you can't refuse without raising a family ruckus...well, them's the breaks. I, personally, don't feel great about your stance but, again, would never insist that you host people in your home. What you can't do is put on a big, family event and then tell everyone that this one family is not allowed and if anyone wants to know why they can just ask them. I think that shames the victim and, ultimately, it's your family that will look like the ones with some weird issue because I think it's unlikely that your stance will make the truth come out. Again, as a victim of abuse myself, it would have been hard enough blowing the whistle on my family abuser. I would die a thousand deaths if I knew the whole extended family was feuding over it. Which is not to say that there aren't things to be done, I just don't quite agree with your approach on this.
Best of luck. I know you're coming from a place of concern.
posted by amanda at 11:25 AM on April 18, 2013 [1 favorite]
The answer is simply, as always, "That won't be possible." You can suggest an alternate venue in your neck of the woods that does not require you to be the host. You don't actually owe anyone an explanation on why you don't want to host a bunch of people in your home.
If you can't refuse without raising a family ruckus...well, them's the breaks. I, personally, don't feel great about your stance but, again, would never insist that you host people in your home. What you can't do is put on a big, family event and then tell everyone that this one family is not allowed and if anyone wants to know why they can just ask them. I think that shames the victim and, ultimately, it's your family that will look like the ones with some weird issue because I think it's unlikely that your stance will make the truth come out. Again, as a victim of abuse myself, it would have been hard enough blowing the whistle on my family abuser. I would die a thousand deaths if I knew the whole extended family was feuding over it. Which is not to say that there aren't things to be done, I just don't quite agree with your approach on this.
Best of luck. I know you're coming from a place of concern.
posted by amanda at 11:25 AM on April 18, 2013 [1 favorite]
The parents are doing a shitty job of dealing with the abuser and protecting the victim. You need to call CPS anyway and make sure this is actually being taken care of because it honestly sounds like they're just trying to sweep it all under the rug. Don't sit idly by while they let the victim languish and the abuser turn into a monster.
I understand that they may be repulsed by their older child but as his parents they're still required to take care of him and make sure he gets evaluated. The fact that his parents' only way of dealing with him seems to be that they're "ostracizing" him speaks volumes about how poorly they're dealing with this situation.
How are they ensuring that he doesn't abuse his sibling again? Are they both still living in the same house? This whole situation is ridiculous. It needs to be addressed plainly and openly and the parents in question are doing a really, really shitty job of it. Don't enable them to keep half-assing this, it's serious business that needs to be taken care of immediately. The real problem here isn't protecting your MIL's feelings, it's protecting the abused child and making sure the abuser is dealt with humanely while still protecting the victim.
posted by i feel possessed at 11:31 AM on April 18, 2013 [2 favorites]
I understand that they may be repulsed by their older child but as his parents they're still required to take care of him and make sure he gets evaluated. The fact that his parents' only way of dealing with him seems to be that they're "ostracizing" him speaks volumes about how poorly they're dealing with this situation.
How are they ensuring that he doesn't abuse his sibling again? Are they both still living in the same house? This whole situation is ridiculous. It needs to be addressed plainly and openly and the parents in question are doing a really, really shitty job of it. Don't enable them to keep half-assing this, it's serious business that needs to be taken care of immediately. The real problem here isn't protecting your MIL's feelings, it's protecting the abused child and making sure the abuser is dealt with humanely while still protecting the victim.
posted by i feel possessed at 11:31 AM on April 18, 2013 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: You are not a mandated reporter, but you have a duty (as a human) to do what is in your power to protect children from harm.
Imagine if someone knew that your child was being sexually abused, someone knew, but didn't call CPS.
I'm not saying that I won't, just saying I don't know if they've already been involved.
In this case, the children's parents are aware and the one who doesn't want this discussed further. I appreciate the concern and I'm concerned as well. I know full well from personal experience what it's like when someone doesn't call CPS.
posted by msladygrey at 11:40 AM on April 18, 2013
Imagine if someone knew that your child was being sexually abused, someone knew, but didn't call CPS.
I'm not saying that I won't, just saying I don't know if they've already been involved.
In this case, the children's parents are aware and the one who doesn't want this discussed further. I appreciate the concern and I'm concerned as well. I know full well from personal experience what it's like when someone doesn't call CPS.
posted by msladygrey at 11:40 AM on April 18, 2013
...The tricky part here is that we don't know for certain who initiated it. Based on the personalities of the children and past history of manipulation, the person who we consider the victim could be the initiator. To be clear, I don't want to blame the victim *at all* but we have some concerns that this may be more complex than it seems. There could very well be a third party that we're unaware of that triggered this inter-family incest as well. We just don't know.
I can't say why the MIL hasn't noticed that the older child isn't around. I figure she thinks he's busy.
Your in-laws sound a lot like my own family: no one talks about "dangerous" subjects, everyone talks around them, with the only direct accusations made towards children... who can't possibly be held responsible for the misdeeds of adults. For instance, the latest incident in my family revolved around my newborn niece, who was made responsible for the bad behavior of her 30-year-old parents: my niece, 40 days old, started screaming for several hours to "manipulate" her parents. (It's tangential and a very long story, but yes, they heard in detail from me how this was irresponsible.)
Your in-laws sound very familiar: it's all the kids' fault. The supposed perpetrator is conveniently ostracized and everything is "taken care of" without needing to talk about it, and the presumed victim is also a scapegoat because they're "manipulative". No one really knows what happened, nor what is happening (have you spoken with either of the children?). It boils down to: children are made to carry the burdens of the adults who are supposed to be responsible for them.
Call CPS.
posted by fraula at 1:33 AM on April 19, 2013 [5 favorites]
I can't say why the MIL hasn't noticed that the older child isn't around. I figure she thinks he's busy.
Your in-laws sound a lot like my own family: no one talks about "dangerous" subjects, everyone talks around them, with the only direct accusations made towards children... who can't possibly be held responsible for the misdeeds of adults. For instance, the latest incident in my family revolved around my newborn niece, who was made responsible for the bad behavior of her 30-year-old parents: my niece, 40 days old, started screaming for several hours to "manipulate" her parents. (It's tangential and a very long story, but yes, they heard in detail from me how this was irresponsible.)
Your in-laws sound very familiar: it's all the kids' fault. The supposed perpetrator is conveniently ostracized and everything is "taken care of" without needing to talk about it, and the presumed victim is also a scapegoat because they're "manipulative". No one really knows what happened, nor what is happening (have you spoken with either of the children?). It boils down to: children are made to carry the burdens of the adults who are supposed to be responsible for them.
Call CPS.
posted by fraula at 1:33 AM on April 19, 2013 [5 favorites]
The tricky part here is that we don't know for certain who initiated it. Based on the personalities of the children and past history of manipulation, the person who we consider the victim could be the initiator.
This is sick thinking, imo. Both kids are probably victims. Call CPS. Don't take the parents words for it.
posted by empath at 1:43 AM on April 19, 2013
This is sick thinking, imo. Both kids are probably victims. Call CPS. Don't take the parents words for it.
posted by empath at 1:43 AM on April 19, 2013
Response by poster: Again, I appreciate everyone's commentary and advice and respect your opinions; however, the advice to "call CPS" isn't answering the question regarding how to deal with the MIL. Thank you to those who have weighed in on that question.
I'm not saying contacting CPS is not being considered.
posted by msladygrey at 5:08 AM on April 19, 2013
I'm not saying contacting CPS is not being considered.
posted by msladygrey at 5:08 AM on April 19, 2013
If MIL asks why, I would tell her the truth.
Assuming that she on occasion hosts her grandkids at her home, with our without their parents present, I think she needs to know what's up. Chances are, she probably already senses something is hinky (or outright knows).
While it may seem like a complex problem to you, it's a problem that has a solution: open communication; professional help; and adult supervision. MIL doesn't need to be protected. And the sibling who would prefer to keep it quiet doesn't get to impose their discomfort on everyone else.
It's OK to give MIL the real story. I think she is owed it. And I think you owe yourself the peace of mind that comes with being open and honest.
posted by nacho fries at 8:21 AM on April 19, 2013 [1 favorite]
Assuming that she on occasion hosts her grandkids at her home, with our without their parents present, I think she needs to know what's up. Chances are, she probably already senses something is hinky (or outright knows).
While it may seem like a complex problem to you, it's a problem that has a solution: open communication; professional help; and adult supervision. MIL doesn't need to be protected. And the sibling who would prefer to keep it quiet doesn't get to impose their discomfort on everyone else.
It's OK to give MIL the real story. I think she is owed it. And I think you owe yourself the peace of mind that comes with being open and honest.
posted by nacho fries at 8:21 AM on April 19, 2013 [1 favorite]
If the sibling doesn't want to tell their mother then that is on them. But it's also your husband's mother and if he agrees this shouldn't be swept under the rug then he should feel free to tell his mother. This affects the whole family and it does not benefit grandma at all to keep such important secrets about her own grandchildren. I personally think it's better for the children that the extended family is there to help, not kept out of it.
posted by Danila at 6:03 PM on April 19, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by Danila at 6:03 PM on April 19, 2013 [1 favorite]
How do we express why sibling's family is personae non gratae if the sibling doesn't want to tell mother-in-law what happened when mother-in-law asks us why we aren't hosting events?
What the sibling does and does not do and says and does not say, to their kids and the MIL, is their business, and all of it centers on the values they hold and practice.
What you (and I mean you and your husband) say and do, or don't say and don't do, will be based on your values in principle and practice (in congruence or not), which you know best.
In my two cents, you say you don't want to deal with people who push things under the rug but that is precisely what you seem to be doing yourself by distancing yourself from the sibling and their family, the incest and actively trying to not having to tell MIL. Pondering over who did and did not initiate the abuse is disturbing because that is never your place to comment on for one! Sure, every family unit within the extended family has a right to do what they will- not talk about abuse in their families and not host events that invite such families- but the fact that you have been in this situation as a victim and you are now faced with a similar situation from another angle is something to think about. You are actively pursuing not having to get involved as an adult- and you are involved because you know about it!- what is your motivation behind this? Who are you really protecting? It's certainly not the victim! When this child grows up and may one day comes to you and say something like, " This was happening to me. You knew about it. Why didn't you say anything?", what are you going to say? Are you going to be able to look them in the eye and say that XYZ is the reason I believed this was the right thing to do? If so then good for you. And again, if you were in MIL's position, what would you want to know and do?? billiebee's comment is spot on!
I don't want to support any family branch that wants to sweep something like this under the rug. It's not acceptable to me. Yes, my husband thinks its not acceptable as well.
You may not be actively supporting them but you are passively doing it very well. The question really is how are you not supporting them?? It takes courage to uphold in practice what you proudly state in principle. Few adults have that courage or can summon that courage at the right time, which explains why abuse goes on for years even when adults, who are supposed to protect children, know about it.
It is always convenient to take the easy path but you've been down that road so its almost ironic that your approach is what it is. Skirting around difficult issues is well and good for short term but like most convenient immediate solutions, they tend to lead to bigger disasters in long run. Not the kind of answer you are looking for but then telling you what to say to MIL and ignoring child abuse is like becoming internet accomplices to the directly-involved-adults, which is probably why people are telling you more than what you'd like to hear.
posted by xm at 1:49 PM on April 21, 2013
What the sibling does and does not do and says and does not say, to their kids and the MIL, is their business, and all of it centers on the values they hold and practice.
What you (and I mean you and your husband) say and do, or don't say and don't do, will be based on your values in principle and practice (in congruence or not), which you know best.
In my two cents, you say you don't want to deal with people who push things under the rug but that is precisely what you seem to be doing yourself by distancing yourself from the sibling and their family, the incest and actively trying to not having to tell MIL. Pondering over who did and did not initiate the abuse is disturbing because that is never your place to comment on for one! Sure, every family unit within the extended family has a right to do what they will- not talk about abuse in their families and not host events that invite such families- but the fact that you have been in this situation as a victim and you are now faced with a similar situation from another angle is something to think about. You are actively pursuing not having to get involved as an adult- and you are involved because you know about it!- what is your motivation behind this? Who are you really protecting? It's certainly not the victim! When this child grows up and may one day comes to you and say something like, " This was happening to me. You knew about it. Why didn't you say anything?", what are you going to say? Are you going to be able to look them in the eye and say that XYZ is the reason I believed this was the right thing to do? If so then good for you. And again, if you were in MIL's position, what would you want to know and do?? billiebee's comment is spot on!
I don't want to support any family branch that wants to sweep something like this under the rug. It's not acceptable to me. Yes, my husband thinks its not acceptable as well.
You may not be actively supporting them but you are passively doing it very well. The question really is how are you not supporting them?? It takes courage to uphold in practice what you proudly state in principle. Few adults have that courage or can summon that courage at the right time, which explains why abuse goes on for years even when adults, who are supposed to protect children, know about it.
It is always convenient to take the easy path but you've been down that road so its almost ironic that your approach is what it is. Skirting around difficult issues is well and good for short term but like most convenient immediate solutions, they tend to lead to bigger disasters in long run. Not the kind of answer you are looking for but then telling you what to say to MIL and ignoring child abuse is like becoming internet accomplices to the directly-involved-adults, which is probably why people are telling you more than what you'd like to hear.
posted by xm at 1:49 PM on April 21, 2013
I'm taking this from a slightly different approach - we have a lot of alcohol abuse in my family. Generations and generations of it. The "don't talk, don't trust, don't feel" method of codependency and avoidance was alive and well.
It's still alive and well in some areas, but in my immediate family, it isn't. I went to a therapist. I learned boundaries. And when my brother, drunk off his rocker, called my husband and screamed at him for a good 20 minutes about how my husband was no good, not good enough for me, etc, cussing and swearing right up until my husband hung up on him - I'd had enough. I practiced with my therapist for a week, and then the next time my brother called, to apologize (again), I said, over and over: "I love you. I will not trust you until you get therapy, whether it's from a counselor or an addiction program."
"But I said I was sorry!"
"I know. I love you, and I appreciate that you are calling to apologize, but I will not trust you or let you back in until you get therapy, whether it's from a counselor or an addiction program."
Later, my mom called and demanded that I forgive my brother. I said, "I love him, but I will not trust him or let him back in until he gets therapy, whether it's from a counselor or an addiction program."
I called out the thing we all wouldn't talk about - that my brother is an addict, that he was a freaking alcoholic mess, that he was this Tyrannasaurus bashing his way through the family. At first, everyone else was PISSED. How dare I speak the unspeakable! How dare I acknowledge that which we talked around, always around, always "well I'm very concerned" or "he might have an issue."
I'm not saying this to say I'm awesome. I'm not. It was REALLY FREAKING HARD and I cried for a couple days. It was scary and difficult and one of the worst feelings I've ever had to go through, the terror of speaking that truth. But - it helped. Not at first, but it helped. Eventually, my mom - herself a victim of abuse, and of having several family members be alcoholics and take it out on her, a teetotaler - found her strength to tell my brother he could not drink at her house. She found the strength to say, "I will talk with you when you are sober" when he called her while he was drunk. Someone has to be the first step. You say due to your own history that it's an emotional minefield for you, and I believe you and am very sympathetic. Could your husband discuss it with his mother? My parents and siblings now say that due to my speaking up, it made it easier for them to speak the truth. My mom was originally very upset with me, but now realizes after doing a lot of her own work that boundaries are great things and that she can and should speak up when she's not comfortable or happy with a situation. So I would say, that is how you deal with your MIL. Perhaps, if you cannot, your husband talks with his mom. It doesn't have to be a big thing. I found practicing scripts with a therapist to be very helpful, but he could practice with a trusted friend as well. For example:
Husband: "Mom, I have something to tell you. As you may have noticed, we don't socialize much with Sibling. It's because we found out that abuse happened between Child 1 and Child 2. We're not comfortable that Sibling has addressed it, so we're going to call CPS, and we plan to not socialize with them for the sake of our kids.
Friend (acting as mother): Why didn't you tell me?
Husband: I'm sure you understand it's a difficult thing to talk about, and we didn't want to upset you. However, we realized that keeping secrets won't solve this.
Scenario 2:
Friend (acting as mother): Child 1 would never do such a thing!
Husband: Unfortunately, it appears that it has happened. We want to focus now on making sure our children are safe, and try to get Child 1 and Child 2 the help they need.
etc.
Act out every permutation you can think of, as often as you need to, to get comfortable with the idea of discussing something so difficult. One reason therapists can be helpful is that they can give you neutral things to respond with - facts, instead of emotion - to help keep conversations under control. This is an emotional and difficult topic, so it can be helpful to have a neutral third party give you some help in navigating it.
This is so difficult. I wish your family the best of luck.
posted by RogueTech at 8:56 PM on April 24, 2013 [2 favorites]
It's still alive and well in some areas, but in my immediate family, it isn't. I went to a therapist. I learned boundaries. And when my brother, drunk off his rocker, called my husband and screamed at him for a good 20 minutes about how my husband was no good, not good enough for me, etc, cussing and swearing right up until my husband hung up on him - I'd had enough. I practiced with my therapist for a week, and then the next time my brother called, to apologize (again), I said, over and over: "I love you. I will not trust you until you get therapy, whether it's from a counselor or an addiction program."
"But I said I was sorry!"
"I know. I love you, and I appreciate that you are calling to apologize, but I will not trust you or let you back in until you get therapy, whether it's from a counselor or an addiction program."
Later, my mom called and demanded that I forgive my brother. I said, "I love him, but I will not trust him or let him back in until he gets therapy, whether it's from a counselor or an addiction program."
I called out the thing we all wouldn't talk about - that my brother is an addict, that he was a freaking alcoholic mess, that he was this Tyrannasaurus bashing his way through the family. At first, everyone else was PISSED. How dare I speak the unspeakable! How dare I acknowledge that which we talked around, always around, always "well I'm very concerned" or "he might have an issue."
I'm not saying this to say I'm awesome. I'm not. It was REALLY FREAKING HARD and I cried for a couple days. It was scary and difficult and one of the worst feelings I've ever had to go through, the terror of speaking that truth. But - it helped. Not at first, but it helped. Eventually, my mom - herself a victim of abuse, and of having several family members be alcoholics and take it out on her, a teetotaler - found her strength to tell my brother he could not drink at her house. She found the strength to say, "I will talk with you when you are sober" when he called her while he was drunk. Someone has to be the first step. You say due to your own history that it's an emotional minefield for you, and I believe you and am very sympathetic. Could your husband discuss it with his mother? My parents and siblings now say that due to my speaking up, it made it easier for them to speak the truth. My mom was originally very upset with me, but now realizes after doing a lot of her own work that boundaries are great things and that she can and should speak up when she's not comfortable or happy with a situation. So I would say, that is how you deal with your MIL. Perhaps, if you cannot, your husband talks with his mom. It doesn't have to be a big thing. I found practicing scripts with a therapist to be very helpful, but he could practice with a trusted friend as well. For example:
Husband: "Mom, I have something to tell you. As you may have noticed, we don't socialize much with Sibling. It's because we found out that abuse happened between Child 1 and Child 2. We're not comfortable that Sibling has addressed it, so we're going to call CPS, and we plan to not socialize with them for the sake of our kids.
Friend (acting as mother): Why didn't you tell me?
Husband: I'm sure you understand it's a difficult thing to talk about, and we didn't want to upset you. However, we realized that keeping secrets won't solve this.
Scenario 2:
Friend (acting as mother): Child 1 would never do such a thing!
Husband: Unfortunately, it appears that it has happened. We want to focus now on making sure our children are safe, and try to get Child 1 and Child 2 the help they need.
etc.
Act out every permutation you can think of, as often as you need to, to get comfortable with the idea of discussing something so difficult. One reason therapists can be helpful is that they can give you neutral things to respond with - facts, instead of emotion - to help keep conversations under control. This is an emotional and difficult topic, so it can be helpful to have a neutral third party give you some help in navigating it.
This is so difficult. I wish your family the best of luck.
posted by RogueTech at 8:56 PM on April 24, 2013 [2 favorites]
This thread is closed to new comments.
But man, your instincts are right about not sweeping is under the rug. Kids don't generally come up with that kind of behavior spontaneously. If the older child was molesting a younger child, there is a pretty good chance that they themselves were abused. This is something that needs to be looked into by child protective services, and if they weren't reporting it, I'd be thinking very hard about reporting it myself.
posted by empath at 7:29 AM on April 18, 2013 [10 favorites]