What to do about crappy vandal neighbor kids... a bit wordy/snowy inside
April 15, 2013 9:20 AM   Subscribe

Do I continue to 'play dumb' and continue to make attempts to just be a friendly neighbor (while still calling the police for extreme disturbances)? Do I make the police cookies and ask for them to drive my block more often?

I hear my neighbors yelling and cursing frequently. There is a constantly rotating cast of characters and I still don't even know who actually lives in the house next to me. I've tried introducing myself and they'll say "hello" but never introduce themselves. When I've tried to go over to initiate introductions myself, they don't answer the door. It's possible there's some kind of drug dealing going on too, cars are constantly pulling up and honking 16x extremely rudely.

Yes, I'm a first time homeowner; yes, it's an "up and coming" neighborhood...I'm in the still-rough edges of a downtown revival. I've lived in rough neighborhoods for most of my adult life and never really had problems, besides street harassment.

I've only called the police once, when some of the teenage-looking kids were throwing glass bottles into the street in the middle of the night so that they broke everywhere. The police came quickly and supervised the kids sweeping up the street...I can only assume they were underage and drunk, yet somehow the police didn't seem to be worried about that aspect of things.

I've considered calling the police for possible child abuse since it often sounds like the mother is screaming obscenities at the younger children, but the mother and one of the teenage boys actually sound very similar. Also the yelling tends not to go on for too long. And the mother (maybe? like I said, I can't keep track of who everyone is) seems the most normal and approachable. (for example, once I bought freezer pops for the younger kids and asked permission from the mom to give them to the kids, she said it was fine, but when i came back out with the pops, the kids were getting corralled into the car. it didn't seem like they were just doing this to get away, more like they just had somewhere to be.)

Come July, I'll have been here a year. FWIW, these people are the same race as me, as much as I can tell.

Right now I'm extremely disheartened because I spent a few hours this past Saturday starting a garden bed like this one: http://www.thisgardenisillegal.com/uploaded_images/record-edging-720846.jpg

And two days later the records had been ripped up from the ground, and some were thrown around. I didn't have time to investigate because I was hurrying to work. If it wasn't kids that actually live next door I'm 99% positive that they know who it was. Do I remain stoic and just re-edge my garden with more records? Do I let that particular design rest until gentrification takes firmer hold? Do I continue to 'play dumb' and continue to make attempts to just be a friendly neighbor (while still calling the police for extreme disturbances)? Do I make the police cookies and ask for them to drive my block more often?

I know I didn't sign up for an easy row to hoe by buying in a dicey neighborhood, but the neighborhood I lived in before this was actually worse, and like I said, I've lived in rough neighborhoods all my adult life and never been really bothered by it.

more FWIW, I'm a female in my 30's but get told I look younger...I'm also typically feminine-looking but I have a fair amount of tattoos, so I also sometimes get told I look tough (I used to train MMA too). I am a quiet polite respectful neighbor (and person in general) and just want to be left alone, but I am obviously pissed about this.

I have a male tenant/roommate and lots of male friends. I'm a feminist but I'm not above having a tough male ally by my side if I need to confront them. My roommate isn't particularly physically intimidating and there would be logistical issues of having a bigger friend come by just to confront them.

I know that I'm still emotional about this, but hope me metafilter please!
posted by leemleem to Home & Garden (21 answers total) 2 users marked this as a favorite
Do I continue to 'play dumb' and continue to make attempts to just be a friendly neighbor (while still calling the police for extreme disturbances)?

I think this is all you can do (other than focusing on ways to drown out the noise, like tall bushes, thicker windows, and white noise machines). Yelling and cursing is extremely annoying but it's not against the law, so the cops probably won't be able to do much if you call them for something low level like that.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 9:26 AM on April 15, 2013

OP, which city, and if you're comfortable saying so, which neighborhood are you in? My advice will be based on that.
posted by Kruger5 at 9:29 AM on April 15, 2013

Best answer: On the neighbours: if they are dealing or abusing their kids then they really don't want you poking your nose in. The thing with the pops is minor, but it's still a f**k you to some basic neighbourly kindness. I think the best you can do at this point is stay away and report things that are over the line and clear enough to demand action from child protection or the police.

On the garden: it sounds like nice things will get trashed. Why give yourself more heartache. Plant things that are pretty enough to cheer up your garden but substantial enough to withstand abuse or inconspicuous enough to not invite some herbert to try and destroy them.

Like you say: rough neighbourhoods are not a new thing for you. What's changed is that you feel a sense of ownership and permanence. Channel your energies into organising or building or running things that will take the neighbourhood where you want it to go, and which will build the community you want to live in.
posted by MuffinMan at 9:35 AM on April 15, 2013 [6 favorites]

Response by poster: I'm in Indianapolis, my neighborhood is Fountain Square...also I wanted to mention that I was being a bit flip with my 'gentrification' comment. Apologies.
posted by leemleem at 9:36 AM on April 15, 2013

In regards to the vandalism, you're likely dealing with your neighbourhood kids. They're bored, they're screwing up your garden.

I don't think there is anything you can do that would NOT escalate the situation. If you're fine with escalating the situation that's one thing, but you would have to be prepared to go to war (which means responding in a consistent way). You could have all your male friends go with you to your neighbour's house, and ask if the kids know anything about vandalism.

However, going to war could last years, and it would not be enjoyable.

The kids you are living with are not particularly smart, and are probably not particularly motivated. They'll probably lose interest after a while if you don't respond. In short, choose your battles.

And why not build a fence??????????????
posted by KokuRyu at 9:43 AM on April 15, 2013 [5 favorites]

I would take PinkSuperHero's advice, it's a reasonable approach. I'd ignore the yelling and only escalate if you think kids are in danger. Some families yell more than others.

I probably wouldn't do the records thing again but it's OK if you want to stick them back where they belong. It's unusual and your neighbors didn't "get" what you were trying to do. They probably thought it was odd but curiosity about what records were there made them pull them up to see what was on them. By the way, your favorite bands suck or this is just junk.

The flowers, in general, are a good idea though and you should put them everywhere. Be a good neighbor, set an example with how well you maintain your property and call the police when lines are crossed.
posted by shoesietart at 9:49 AM on April 15, 2013 [1 favorite]

I'd start by talking to the Mom.

"Hey, I thought you might be able to help me. I was hoping you could ask your kids if they know who trashed my garden. I'm trying to make my place look nice and I'm totally bummed that someone came by and messed it up. I hate to do it, but I might have to get cameras or something because I'm kind of protective of my property. I'm sure you feel the same way."

Don't accuse her kids of being the one's who trashed it, but ask for their help. Chances are you'll get nowhere, except you've put them on notice.

I'm not sure how much this would work to be honest. If the Mom has checked out and is letting her kids run the streets, the only thing you can do is keep trying to be friendly and approachable. And calling the cops when it gets out of hand.

I'm kind of mean, I'd rig up a thing that would howl like an air raid siren anytime someone crossed the perimeter of my property. Motion detector lights migh be a prudent investment as well.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 9:52 AM on April 15, 2013 [3 favorites]

Best answer: You should immediately engage your Indianapolis PD District CrimeWatch Specialist and the District Community Resource Liaison Officer. CrimeWatch

Both will be able to provide resources and perhaps more importantly, make sure the Police Department is aware of your concerns. Police Liaison Officers are tremendously valuable in handling quality of life concerns.
posted by lstanley at 9:53 AM on April 15, 2013 [11 favorites]

I have very similar neighbours, and I'm not even in a rough part of town as an excuse. We've managed to avoid the broken bottles but we've had rubbish over the fence, including various pipes and smoking implements and what I can only assume are stolen goods, I'm up 2 mobile phones, various shoes and jackets and a PSP at this point.

Things that helped me was planting plants with thorns out the front and installing fencing, 6 foot plus in the back yard and post and rail in the front. I guess fencing depends on what zone you are in, but I have found that Briaroses and old fashioned super prickly rose bushes scatter through the plantings tend to put people off damaging or running through my garden and only planting cheap plants out there make it less heart breaking when they do pull them out.

I don't try to engage with the neighbour mother anymore beyond a polite head nod if I see her, which she ignores. The good news is that kids grow up, the oldest from next door has already left home and the various pipes have already stopped appearing over the fence so I am hopeful in a year or so the others will up and leave home and sanity will return.

Fence your backyard with the tallest fence you can, if it's not fenced already, and keep your fancy garden edging and plants in there. We decided against escalating the situation, and my very large 6'4" husband seriously wanted to because stupid neighbour wars never really have a winner, we have put our energy into being friendly with the people we see out and about that want to be friendly back.
posted by wwax at 9:54 AM on April 15, 2013 [2 favorites]

I think I'd skip the records thing. I have pretty good neighbors but during the day there are your typical loud-mouth kids that walk up and down my street to and from the city bus stop and the middle school down the way. I also have folks that walk between the trailer park and the convenience store. Before I put something in my front yard, I like to think, 'would this make a fun, middle-of-the-night, drunken projectile into my car's window?' But, I'm a cynical person by nature.

I put up a low, attractive, wooden fence along the front edge of my property in the first year I moved there and it definitely helped with the feeling that there was an edge and a clear line between public and private. There's no sidewalks and I often found dog poop in my yard before the fence.

You might consider white noise both inside and out. Babbling water fountains help a lot with smoothing out outdoor noise. I'm considering installing one in the backyard. I have a neighbor who loves nothing more than to survey his vegetable garden while horking up enormous phlegmballs. He also shouts at his grandkids and dogs in a most repetitive and ineffective manner. It's not on the level you're dealing with but, you know, it sucks.

I think given you have some concerns with dealing, it's worth going to the police station and talking to someone about what they recommend you do and whether your actions could remain anonymous. Otherwise, I'd just be cooley distant from your neighbors. It may be that they didn't understand you were going to get the pops right then. Or really had no idea what you were planning to give them. Simple misunderstanding combined with a lack of social graces may be what you're dealing with. I've known people like this who just weren't raised in a way that makes common social interactions very easy.

If you happen to be chatting with the kids, you might say, "Hey, any idea who broke my records? [....] Well, it made me pretty sad that they got broken. I hope it doesn't happen again." Anything beyond that just isn't going to work, for anyone.
posted by amanda at 9:57 AM on April 15, 2013 [3 favorites]

I kind of feel like you're looking for fault a little more than is really helpful, here. Not everyone likes interacting with the neighbors, and I think you need to not read over-much into their standoffishness. Sometimes teenagers are idiots and do idiot things, and the cops are a little lenient because, hey, kids. These are not rough neighborhood things; you'll find that everywhere. The comments about race and wondering how to get the cops to come by more are a little off.

Keep an eye out for the younger kids, but it's also quite possible that it's the teenagers yelling at each other, or the parents and teens. If they're making noise to the point of bothering you when you're trying to sleep or whatever, knock on their door and say so, or call the cops (I'd knock first, but people vary on this, and you don't have to go talk to them directly if you're not comfortable with it.)

If your heart is set on the garden, go over and talk to your neighbors. Don't say that you think it was their kids, just say that you're starting a garden and it's a bit fragile, and you'd really appreciate if they just kept an eye out for people cutting across your lawn or kids roughhousing. And if it keeps happening, fence it off and put up a "Beware of Dog" sign.
posted by kagredon at 9:59 AM on April 15, 2013 [3 favorites]

Best answer: I would give the records thing in the garden a rest. That sounds like a terrible hill to die on and I suspect it would become a sick running battle, making problems worse.

One thing you can do: Walk more and be visibly on the street and in your yard more.

I have talked about this in a couple of other posts. Jane Jacobs wrote about eyes on the street as a safety thing. I lived in an apartment complex that had a repuation for cars being broken into and when I moved in the police parked there routinely on weekend nights. I gave my car and me and my two sons began walking everywhere. Over time, other people began walking more. Eventually, the cops stopped parking there.

People who are dealing drugs, abusing kids, etc do not want witnesses. Thus your simple physical presence is a deterrent to bad stuff happening. If you are always outside, people will become hesitant to drive up and honk 16x if they are, in fact, buying drugs. It will take time but it is the only thing I know of that has a proven track record for improving safety in a bad neighborhood (and not just in my personal experience -- stuff I have read agrees with this but, other than Jane Jacobs, I can't recall any specific sources). If being visibly outside catches on, then the effect will be multiplied by quite a lot.

If you do see real evidence of abuse, not just yelling, consider calling social services instead of the police.
posted by Michele in California at 10:09 AM on April 15, 2013 [4 favorites]

Best answer: My dad had a lot of luck picking the ringleader of some young (13-14) teens, and offering him... yard work, I guess. Pocket money stuff. Treat someone with respect and they'll treat you with respect, that kind of thing.

I'd never do it myself, but I come from a different time and place. My dad's old-school. I was surprised how effective it was.
posted by Leon at 10:19 AM on April 15, 2013 [2 favorites]

Do I continue to make attempts to just be a friendly neighbor (while still calling the police for extreme disturbances)?

I would go with this as long as possible—and then some. I can't imagine anything good coming from confronting anyone and/or trying to suss out the guilty party.

I like Michele in CA suggestion re being visible in your neighborhood. Perhaps you could take this a step further and start a block club? This appears to be an umbrella organization for Indy block clubs—Indianapolis Neighborhood Resource Center. (I just found them via google - don't know anything about the group.)
posted by she's not there at 10:21 AM on April 15, 2013

Best answer: I have a 9-year history of crappy neighbors. And to qualify "crappy" so it's clear: the first was a drug dealer upstairs neighbor who would get drunk (and presumably more), trash his apartment at 2am, open his windows and scream outside until the cops arrived and calmed him down. I was the one calling the cops, btw. Just after I left the building (to move from that rental to my own, purchased apartment), there was a knife fight involving him, over drugs, in which one person was killed. The second was (though she still is a neighbor) a woman who threatened to kill my then-single-cat on the first day we met. (For anyone wondering if my cat were possibly roaming onto her property, no, that's my entirely fenced-in, roofed and walled patio, with no way for cat to get out.) Third: my current upstairs neighbors, whose eldest son has apparently gotten into drugs, and comes over at all hours to yell and bang on doors with threats.

All I can advise is politely ignoring the crappy behaviors, nth a regular, calm, neighborhood-helping presence, and yes, phone the police when it crosses the line. With my cat-threatening neighbor, it turns out she was also threatening people, i.e. other neighbors. I found out because I asked around, and when she escalated to damaging my property, witnessed by a neighbor I'd spoken to, we were able to go to the police together and file a complaint, photographs as support. (She... cut my fencing to deposit dog poo on my patio. Myah.) Doing that got her fined, and as she had a history of other complaints for violence, the sentence also included "if there is any complaint whatsoever about repeated threats or property damage, this fine will be doubled for each one." That was three or four years ago; she's been quiet ever since.

Being calm and present has also worked for the shady upstairs neighbor: a few times, I've heard a group of "friends" and him keep the front door of our building open in the middle of the night. I, a woman, btw, get up, take whatever trash I have, and take the trash outside, saying "Hello" and making eye contact with each of them, showing no fear. I am behaving as I want to be able to behave in my home building: safe and able to take out the trash. This alone has stopped their shady midnight behavior.

And for a counter-example, the ONE time I was more directly assertive, I had my ass handed to me. Upstairs neighbor (yeeeah) had "borrowed" the key to the shared bicycle room in our building... for three months. And left the window open. In winter. Our building management didn't have a copy of the key. Our heating bills were getting astronomical (shared boiler for the building). We didn't know who had the key, until finally the bicycle room was opened and I saw who it was. I politely asked if they could please close the window while they were in there.

ho-kay whoa, uh, just would like the window closed, 's'all
oh, stealing is not cool... turns out nothing had actually been stolen but that's another story, sigh.
This is when the light of "Oh yeah! Dishonest people are dishonest, this is why I never confront!" went on.

Non-involvement can suck when, it's just, like, "dude! My garden! Come on, man!" but remember, they know they're futzing with someone else's hard work. They know what they're doing is not cool. Telling them won't change that, unfortunately. But being present, inhabiting your space as you want it to be, I've seen that work. Gradually, but it works, and you feel a lot better too. The anxiety of wondering whether a neighbor's going to escalate because talking to them had the opposite effect just isn't worth it.

Calling the police and chatting about it may also help. We went through a period on our street where motorized scooters kept parking on the sidewalk, and repeatedly asking the cops to come and have a talk with their owners to encourage them to park them in the designated motorcycle spots five feet away (not even kidding -.-;) had very good results. They patrol our street a bit more often now, and I've noticed the troublesome upstairs neighbor being less cruddy after that as well.
posted by fraula at 10:52 AM on April 15, 2013 [6 favorites]

If you don't want to hear more cursing, don't tell Nextdoor Mom about the trashed garden. Because she's going to yell at them. If you have a large, burly male pal who can glower menacingly at them from the front stoop, or if you think you can pull this off yourself, like while cleaning your gun collection (kidding!) or walking your pit bulls, that might help. The kids are going to mess with you because they can. You do need to establish that you're not going to be messed with, but not by confronting them directly. I would call the cops, and if you have any friends who are cops or know cops, get 'em to drop by in the car. And get to know your other, non-skanky neighbors.
posted by Ideefixe at 11:37 AM on April 15, 2013 [1 favorite]

I think you're overreacting a bit. Some people yell, regardless of class/ income. Some kids are rowdy, regardless of class/income. The cops don't care too much because they have real, serious problems to care about. Some neighbours don't give a fuck about "being neighbourly" or what their neighbours think of them because they have no interest in being friends or developing a relationship with their neighbours. Put up a fence and get a life of your own to focus on. If they're being really loud call the cops with a noise complaint. If you're worried about the kids' safety call childrens aid. They're not drug dealers just because they make you uncomfortable. Fences make good neighbours.
posted by windykites at 12:07 PM on April 15, 2013 [3 favorites]

Also this I've tried introducing myself and they'll say "hello" but never introduce themselves. When I've tried to go over to initiate introductions myself, they don't answer the door. Indicates to me that they don't want to be friends with you. Some people don't like people.
posted by windykites at 12:10 PM on April 15, 2013

They've indicated over and over and over again that THEY WANT NOTHING TO DO WITH YOU.

I bolded that because you seem to be missing the message.

Stop instigating trouble. Build a fence. Call children services anonymously if you think the children are at risk, but be be warned, they'll likely guess it is you that reported them anyway.

You sound silly. This isn't about principles, gender, class and society, or any other thing except that you have failed repeatedly to pick up the giant hints your neighbors are dropping your way. They don't seem to want to be your enemy, but they want nothing zero zilch to do with you.


If you think your neighbors are dealing drugs, find out who handles those investigations at your local police department and report the address. This is a common way to handle the "I think my neighbors are drug dealers" problem.

If I thought my neighbors were dealing drugs, I'd keep a very low profile and mind my own business, even though I would be secretly complaining to my local police/city counsel/whathaveyou to get the problem addressed through official avenues.

Is it meth? Could they be cooking meth? Because that's an immediate danger on many levels (contamination by toxic chemicals, or the house next door to you could blow up) and this possibility demands a whole 'nother set of immediate actions on your part to address the issue and keep yourself safe.

In other words, the garden is the least of your worries, and you are unnecessarily escalating things. You do NOT sound like someone who has "lived in bad neighborhoods" their whole life. You sound like an idiot about to light a match to a fuse.

Build a fence if you want a garden, but again, you have bigger problems. You're making it so much worse by forcing yourself into your neighbors' line of sight.

Wise up and stay safe.
posted by jbenben at 1:01 PM on April 15, 2013 [4 favorites]

Best answer: Glad you updated, OP.

Fountain Square is not the kind of neighborhood that requires heavy dose of police and community heavy handedness (in other words, it's a relatively ok neighborhood where crime is more from convenience, there are no gunshots going off, related violence, etc. Community heavy handedness has worked well in places like parts of Brooklyn new York. But that would be overkill in your situation.

In such a case, I would deal with the neighbors directly, do not get your burly male friends involved - no matter what you think of it, that's a step of escalation. Consider doing community- based intervention. There's power in two's. They are safer than burly friend tactics, and make the neighborhood much safer in the long run.
posted by Kruger5 at 1:02 PM on April 15, 2013

Response by poster: I'm so happy to report there's a HAPPY ENDING/NEW BEGINNING to this saga! Up until this incident, I had no reservations about trying to deal with this situation with respect and kindness, until proven otherwise. I've been so busy rehabbing the rest of my house (inside and out) that I hadn't had much more time to be neighborly other than the incidents described above (trying to introduce myself, and offering the popsicles). And I was thinking that since I was met with such indifference (and occasional possible hostility) that it was a lost cause. I also have other areas of my life where I feel like I get treated like a doormat, so I was unsure as to the best response to this situation. And yes, I'm currently in therapy for that stuff too.

I'd also like to note that my comment about race was simply this: we've likely all been witness to or read about, for example, white gentrification of historically black neighborhoods, and there is sometimes racial and class tension on top of already-complicated neighbor interactions. I simply wanted to point out that this was not the dynamic at hand here. I'm still not explaining myself very well but I only mentioned it in regards to THEIR perception of ME, not my perception of them. I only base my perception of them on their actions.

Also I should've mentioned that I just don't have money to spend on fences or surveillance equipment - I'm an 'upcycler' by necessity, I used the records because I can't afford anything else!

I went back out front the next afternoon to try to salvage the garden bed (I had put a layer of newspapers down under the mulch so it looked terrible to have it torn up, after having put so much work to attempt to beautify). While I was digging around again, one of the neighborhood boys rode up on his bike and said, "here's one of your records, ma'am." I introduced myself and asked his name. I asked him if he had any ideas who had done it, and he named the 15 year old next-door neighbor that I suspected. He was very sweet, and another younger looking kid rode up beside him. I said thanks, made a little more conversation and said some things along the lines of 'well, since we're neighbors, I'll try to look after your stuff if you help look after my stuff.'

I continued working and the 'suspect' eventually came out to the sidewalk, sitting with his friends. I went over to him, and in a moderate tone of voice, said "Is your name ______?" "Yeah" "Did you mess with my records?" "Nah, that was so-and-so down the street." [still not believing him, but I can't prove anything] "You know who did it but you didn't say anything?" I introduced myself and some other kids started to gather. I said the same thing to him, "I'll look out for you if you look out for me." Another one of his friends said that the neighborhood hooligan kids just mess everything up. The 'suspect's mother got home and saw me talking with them. She said, "Sorry about your records, miss. They got me too" - and gestured to her van's broken window. I introduced myself to her and said that stunk about her van.

The next day the 'suspect' and some of his friends were working on their bikes out front and I went over and asked if they needed any chain lube or anything. The 'suspect' asked if I had vise grips, and I do. I wasn't going to hand them over since I still don't think he has the best respect for other people's property, so I ended up sitting with them all afternoon. The friend that was working on the bike took it upon himself to point out the 'good' kids in the neighborhood to me. I got after them a few times for dropping 'N-bombs' and for 'talking nasty - racial/homophobic slurs, sex talk'. I don't get after them for cursewords as long as they don't shout them. The 'suspect' told me a little more about who all lives in the house next door and some of the other kids asked me about my truck. I also offered extra space in my trashcan to the mom, and she was appreciative. Really I felt much better overall just knowing everyone's names.

This past weekend I had a load of mulch and the suspect ended up helping me get it onto the porch. One of his little cousins was over and I offered her $3 to 'pick all the dandelions' (but really to weed them). Her mom said she could do it in my backyard too, if the suspect was with her. The suspect ended up doing a TON of work for me, and even offered his help anytime. He was even making suggestions of how to landscape my backyard, and told me all the things I suspected: that his dad took off after getting his mom pregnant, and that he's had to take care of himself a lot. He also said his mom puts everybody before herself. I know this is so long already, but he really just poured his heart out. He was also really good with his little cousin, talking about how she makes good grades. There was even a point where his little cousin, apropos of nothing, said "what if a girl and a girl got married. That's gross." I responded, "I have friends who are girls who love girls, and they're not hurting anyone else. They are good people." and the suspect backed me up, "Yeah there ain't nothing wrong with that. Just be who you are." The little cousin even dragged me inside the house next door for us to give the bouquets of dandelions to the grandma and her mom.

I know that I won't likely change them or myself overnight. I understand that some families yell. I actually grew up in a house like that and that's why I don't like it now. But in accordance with some of the 'best practices' suggestions I've read, having a relationship with the affected people can only help. At the very least, it gives me more patience in dealing with it. But yes, again, I'm sorry I'm not explaining it very well or succinctly, but I never imagined that I would've GAINED a friend and ally in my 15 year old neighbor 'suspect'. I think he enjoyed the respite from the yelling in my quiet backyard. I have been thoroughly adopted by the neighborhood kids. At this point I think he might have a bit of a guilty conscience, but he's offered to help me do whatever needs doing whenever he sees me working. He's more than made up for possibly having trashed my front garden. I was feeling so pessimistic about this I never would have guessed that we could end up in a mutually beneficial, symbiotic arrangement as there is now.
posted by leemleem at 12:08 PM on May 6, 2013 [5 favorites]

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