Decisions, decisions, decisions
March 11, 2013 3:01 PM Subscribe
I'm a soon-to-be college graduate and I have two job offers, one from a large company and another one from a smaller company. I'm also interviewing with two other companies, one of which I happen to really like. What do I do?
Company A:
Smaller (but not that small), close to where I currently live
More vacation days - three weeks of PTO and plenty of holidays
Work hours are around 10-7pm - is this standard for most tech companies?
401k but no matching
Might go public soon
Slightly higher salary
Company B:
Much larger (stabler and perhaps more chances to work abroad later on?)
It's a couple hours plane flight from where I am right now.
Fewer vacation days - two weeks of PTO and 6 holidays
People seem to think that B has crappy work-life balance (by people I mean word-of-mouth and Glassdoor reviews)
401k + matching
Provides relocation expenses
Slightly lower salary but very high sign-on bonuses
Do I take one of the two offers? Should I negotiate to try to get better offers even if I think that they're already giving me fair salaries? Along those lines, what is considered fair for entry-level - would something that's close to the median on Glassdoor be "fair"?
I keep hearing from friends that I should negotiate, but I'm also slightly scared that negotiating will cause the companies to renege their offers. Is initiating negotiation through email an acceptable practice?
Finally, there's another company that I really like, mainly because they do exactly what I've enjoyed and they have great work-life balance. However, they're a fairly big company and I just started the interview process today, so I doubt that they're going to be able to get back to me before the deadlines of A and B. Should I just take what I can get?
Company A:
Smaller (but not that small), close to where I currently live
More vacation days - three weeks of PTO and plenty of holidays
Work hours are around 10-7pm - is this standard for most tech companies?
401k but no matching
Might go public soon
Slightly higher salary
Company B:
Much larger (stabler and perhaps more chances to work abroad later on?)
It's a couple hours plane flight from where I am right now.
Fewer vacation days - two weeks of PTO and 6 holidays
People seem to think that B has crappy work-life balance (by people I mean word-of-mouth and Glassdoor reviews)
401k + matching
Provides relocation expenses
Slightly lower salary but very high sign-on bonuses
Do I take one of the two offers? Should I negotiate to try to get better offers even if I think that they're already giving me fair salaries? Along those lines, what is considered fair for entry-level - would something that's close to the median on Glassdoor be "fair"?
I keep hearing from friends that I should negotiate, but I'm also slightly scared that negotiating will cause the companies to renege their offers. Is initiating negotiation through email an acceptable practice?
Finally, there's another company that I really like, mainly because they do exactly what I've enjoyed and they have great work-life balance. However, they're a fairly big company and I just started the interview process today, so I doubt that they're going to be able to get back to me before the deadlines of A and B. Should I just take what I can get?
Unless you want to work move to where company B is located, it sounds like company A is better in every category except for the lack of a 401k match (but the higher salary might make up for that) and signing bonus. I wouldn't weight the signing bonus that heavily, though, since long-term a higher salary will be better as raises are usually a percentage of your current salary.
I'm also a fan of working for smaller companies. You're more likely to get a chance to work on a wider variety of more interesting tasks than at a large company.
Don't underestimate the vacation days either. Two weeks + six days doesn't sound like a lot.
Working 10-7 sounds reasonably standard.
Others may disagree, but if the offers are fair I wouldn't negotiate too hard. You can always mention to company A that B is offering a nice signing bonus that's tempting - they're not going to renege on the offer.
As for fairness of offers - personally I'm skeptical of glassdoor. It might be accurate for larger companies, but I've worked for startups and it's not accurate for anyplace I've worked. I think the problem is that offers get really hard to compare as soon as stock grants or options get involved, unless it's a publicly traded company.
As for the other company, the best strategy is to be honest with everyone. Tell the third company that you have an offer with a deadline from Company A - usually they can speed up the process if you have a deadline. You can also tell Company A that you're in the process of interviewing (no need to tell them where in the process, however) at Third Company, and to be fair you want to give them a chance. Sometimes they'll extend a deadline - it can't hurt to ask.
posted by unix at 3:28 PM on March 11, 2013
I'm also a fan of working for smaller companies. You're more likely to get a chance to work on a wider variety of more interesting tasks than at a large company.
Don't underestimate the vacation days either. Two weeks + six days doesn't sound like a lot.
Working 10-7 sounds reasonably standard.
Others may disagree, but if the offers are fair I wouldn't negotiate too hard. You can always mention to company A that B is offering a nice signing bonus that's tempting - they're not going to renege on the offer.
As for fairness of offers - personally I'm skeptical of glassdoor. It might be accurate for larger companies, but I've worked for startups and it's not accurate for anyplace I've worked. I think the problem is that offers get really hard to compare as soon as stock grants or options get involved, unless it's a publicly traded company.
As for the other company, the best strategy is to be honest with everyone. Tell the third company that you have an offer with a deadline from Company A - usually they can speed up the process if you have a deadline. You can also tell Company A that you're in the process of interviewing (no need to tell them where in the process, however) at Third Company, and to be fair you want to give them a chance. Sometimes they'll extend a deadline - it can't hurt to ask.
posted by unix at 3:28 PM on March 11, 2013
Company A is better.
Ask both company A and company B if you can have a week to decide. Then pick company A.
Don't negotiate for more if you think the offers are fair. You do not have to negotiate simply on principle, and it is an easy process to get wrong. You can always get into negotiating next time you're looking for work.
An interview is so far from being a job offer that you should rule out the third company unless they get back to you before the week is up. It sounds like you already had the interview, which means it's too late to ask them for a quick decision. If you had closed the interview with "how soon can I expect to hear from you?" [answer] "I have two other offers on the table and I asked them to give me a week to decide, but I can't really keep them waiting longer than that. I have to admit, though, I'm more interested in you than either of them. Is there any chance you could get back to me within the week?"
But it's too late for that now, so, wait until the week is up and then pick company A.
It's extremely unusual to have more than one job offer on the table at the same time (within a week of each other). This situation may never be repeated again in your entire career; it's only happened to me once.
You don't want to blow it by hanging out for a better offer or negotiating just because your friends told you to. I'm not trying to get you to cringe in a position of weakness, I'm just saying that you should take advantage of the good situation you're in all things considered, and not try to push the envelope further.
posted by tel3path at 3:29 PM on March 11, 2013
Ask both company A and company B if you can have a week to decide. Then pick company A.
Don't negotiate for more if you think the offers are fair. You do not have to negotiate simply on principle, and it is an easy process to get wrong. You can always get into negotiating next time you're looking for work.
An interview is so far from being a job offer that you should rule out the third company unless they get back to you before the week is up. It sounds like you already had the interview, which means it's too late to ask them for a quick decision. If you had closed the interview with "how soon can I expect to hear from you?" [answer] "I have two other offers on the table and I asked them to give me a week to decide, but I can't really keep them waiting longer than that. I have to admit, though, I'm more interested in you than either of them. Is there any chance you could get back to me within the week?"
But it's too late for that now, so, wait until the week is up and then pick company A.
It's extremely unusual to have more than one job offer on the table at the same time (within a week of each other). This situation may never be repeated again in your entire career; it's only happened to me once.
You don't want to blow it by hanging out for a better offer or negotiating just because your friends told you to. I'm not trying to get you to cringe in a position of weakness, I'm just saying that you should take advantage of the good situation you're in all things considered, and not try to push the envelope further.
posted by tel3path at 3:29 PM on March 11, 2013
Also, 10-7 is a bit odd, but that's 9 hours minus an hour for lunch? That's fine, especially if it's near where you live.
posted by tel3path at 3:30 PM on March 11, 2013
posted by tel3path at 3:30 PM on March 11, 2013
Regarding the "might go public" detail of company A: ignore it. You have no idea if the company will go public, and, even if it does, you will have entered the company at too late a point to realize anything from any option grants awarded to you at the start of your employment.
Don't even consider the possibility of going public to be a factor in your decision.
posted by dfriedman at 3:32 PM on March 11, 2013 [2 favorites]
Don't even consider the possibility of going public to be a factor in your decision.
posted by dfriedman at 3:32 PM on March 11, 2013 [2 favorites]
I'd choose company A. I've worked for smaller companies and larger ones, and the small ones are always more pleasant to work for; it's easier to feel like the work you're doing actually matters. In a big, big company, you can feel lost in the machine.
posted by Andrhia at 3:35 PM on March 11, 2013
posted by Andrhia at 3:35 PM on March 11, 2013
You don't mention health insurance plans, which can vary greatly in terms of premiums, coverage, copays, etc. Take a look at monthly premiums, terms of coverage, tax / taxable income exemptions, etc. I initially did not think much about health insurance plans when comparing offers; I'm young and never use my insurance. However, the plan available through your employer *will* impact your effective take-home pay, will have tax opportunities and consequences, and will be very important if you are ever hurt.
You might also consider the opportunity cost associated with working at a place with poor work-life balance. Assuming you are a developer, how much do you value having the free time to work on side projects, contribute to open source projects, and learn libraries that are not immediately related to your work? In addition to those lost opportunities, not only is the salary at company B lower, your effective hourly rate is even lower still.
posted by Derive the Hamiltonian of... at 3:38 PM on March 11, 2013
You might also consider the opportunity cost associated with working at a place with poor work-life balance. Assuming you are a developer, how much do you value having the free time to work on side projects, contribute to open source projects, and learn libraries that are not immediately related to your work? In addition to those lost opportunities, not only is the salary at company B lower, your effective hourly rate is even lower still.
posted by Derive the Hamiltonian of... at 3:38 PM on March 11, 2013
I don't know the tech industry well, but if you did just have an interview today at Company C and didn't have the deadline conversation tel3path mentions, I think it's still perfectly ok to follow up with that question by email. When you send a thank you message to your interviewer, just write something brief and professional letting them know that you have another offer to consider with Deadline X, and it would be helpful to you to know where they will be in their process by that time.
I recently sent a similar email, but BEFORE the interview--saying essentially "I've had another job offer, but I am much more interested in the position at your company. It would be really helpful if you are able to give me any more information about X, Y, and Z before the interview." I haven't heard back from the interview yet, but the email was well received. I got some of the information I wanted, but not all, and that was fine. I think hiring managers understand that you will be interviewing in more than one place, and that you can be in difficult situations like this one. As long as you are professional and modest throughout, there can be nothing wrong with telling an employer that you have another offer but are more interested in their position.
posted by snorkmaiden at 3:42 PM on March 11, 2013
I recently sent a similar email, but BEFORE the interview--saying essentially "I've had another job offer, but I am much more interested in the position at your company. It would be really helpful if you are able to give me any more information about X, Y, and Z before the interview." I haven't heard back from the interview yet, but the email was well received. I got some of the information I wanted, but not all, and that was fine. I think hiring managers understand that you will be interviewing in more than one place, and that you can be in difficult situations like this one. As long as you are professional and modest throughout, there can be nothing wrong with telling an employer that you have another offer but are more interested in their position.
posted by snorkmaiden at 3:42 PM on March 11, 2013
I don't know what the logic is behind not negotiating if the offer is "fair". What's fair is what they're willing to pay. You don't know what they are willing to pay until you ask. As noted, they're not going to rescind the offer, and since you have multiple offers you can easily play them against each other. All you have to do is say to the company you like more "I am very interested in this offer, but I have another offer that [includes a higher bonus, includes a higher salary, etc.].... can you match that?" The worst they can say is no.
posted by treehorn+bunny at 3:48 PM on March 11, 2013
posted by treehorn+bunny at 3:48 PM on March 11, 2013
Btw, it's standard advice to 'negotiate for more time off' and I've tried that at companies large and small over the years - I have yet to get it to work! Generally, PTO is policy, and companies have to have the same policy for everyone. Just FYI - but try anyway (I always do!).
posted by dbmcd at 3:50 PM on March 11, 2013
posted by dbmcd at 3:50 PM on March 11, 2013
I'm just echoing the crowd here, but I'd recommend the smaller company. At smaller places you'll get a chance to wear more hats and gain broader experience. At larger places sometimes the bureaucracy and political infighting can be very frustrating. I used to work at a very large corporation (think 50,000+ employees) and recently I joined a company of 10 people, and the difference is like night and day. Things are just so much more efficient and the environment is more cooperative.
Also, just remember, stable company does not necessarily equal stable job.
posted by pravit at 3:57 PM on March 11, 2013
Also, just remember, stable company does not necessarily equal stable job.
posted by pravit at 3:57 PM on March 11, 2013
Company A looks like a winner from every angle except 401k matching. Personally, I'd go with A without a second thought.
Also, there is a decent chance that company B, as a larger and more stable company, will still be there in a few years. If you decide that company A is a bad fit or you want to travel or want to try a big company, you can apply at company B again. The reverse may not be as easy.
posted by It's Never Lurgi at 4:05 PM on March 11, 2013
Also, there is a decent chance that company B, as a larger and more stable company, will still be there in a few years. If you decide that company A is a bad fit or you want to travel or want to try a big company, you can apply at company B again. The reverse may not be as easy.
posted by It's Never Lurgi at 4:05 PM on March 11, 2013
Regarding the "might go public" detail of company A: ignore it. You have no idea if the company will go public, and, even if it does, you will have entered the company at too late a point to realize anything from any option grants awarded to you at the start of your employment.
This is not totally true--yes, the first part is true--you should absolutely never ever count on pre-IPO equity to be worth anything--but you can absolutely make money on your equity from joining a pre-IPO company even when they're at the "might IPO soonish" stage. It's true that it's harder to make money from options when the company is more mature; that's why later employees will usually get RSUs.
I don't think that renegging in response to negotiation is something you need to worry about. That's something I used to worry about when I was your age and had an anxiety disorder. Now I'm older and I still have an anxiety disorder, and I worry about other things, but not that. Companies don't do that--lots of candidates negotiate, companies wouldn't be able to hire if they rejected everyone who tried.
Seconding pravit on stability. There is no real stability in this industry, especially when you haven't established a name for yourself. At the moment, it's a seller's market for good engineers, so it's not such a big deal.
How do you feel about the people you'd be working with? The tech stack? The product itself? The city you'd be living in? Are you taking into account cost of living differences when you evaluate the salary? (It sounds like you might be comparing Seattle vs. Bay Area--the Bay Area is much more expensive.)
posted by phoenixy at 4:12 PM on March 11, 2013
This is not totally true--yes, the first part is true--you should absolutely never ever count on pre-IPO equity to be worth anything--but you can absolutely make money on your equity from joining a pre-IPO company even when they're at the "might IPO soonish" stage. It's true that it's harder to make money from options when the company is more mature; that's why later employees will usually get RSUs.
I don't think that renegging in response to negotiation is something you need to worry about. That's something I used to worry about when I was your age and had an anxiety disorder. Now I'm older and I still have an anxiety disorder, and I worry about other things, but not that. Companies don't do that--lots of candidates negotiate, companies wouldn't be able to hire if they rejected everyone who tried.
Seconding pravit on stability. There is no real stability in this industry, especially when you haven't established a name for yourself. At the moment, it's a seller's market for good engineers, so it's not such a big deal.
How do you feel about the people you'd be working with? The tech stack? The product itself? The city you'd be living in? Are you taking into account cost of living differences when you evaluate the salary? (It sounds like you might be comparing Seattle vs. Bay Area--the Bay Area is much more expensive.)
posted by phoenixy at 4:12 PM on March 11, 2013
I wouldn't weight the signing bonus that heavily, though, since long-term a higher salary will be better as raises are usually a percentage of your current salary.
Also, having to relocate to the other city would cost you money and offset the bonus.
posted by Jahaza at 4:38 PM on March 11, 2013
Also, having to relocate to the other city would cost you money and offset the bonus.
posted by Jahaza at 4:38 PM on March 11, 2013
Response by poster: Wow, thanks for the responses everyone! I'll write a follow-up email to C and see what happens.
Re: healthcare: the two of them are pretty equivalent on healthcare, as far as I can tell. They both offer medical, dental and vision coverage and a number of different plans.
phoenixy: Thanks, that's good to know - I probably tend to worry too much... I know who I'm working with at A and my would-be manager has expressed an interest in mentoring me. For B, I get to choose what team I want to be on and thus I have no idea who I'll be working with, but it does offer more flexibility in terms of what technologies I'll be working with. But this point might be moot since with a smaller company, I'd get to experiment too.
And yes, it's Seattle vs Bay Area...
posted by movicont at 5:00 PM on March 11, 2013
Re: healthcare: the two of them are pretty equivalent on healthcare, as far as I can tell. They both offer medical, dental and vision coverage and a number of different plans.
phoenixy: Thanks, that's good to know - I probably tend to worry too much... I know who I'm working with at A and my would-be manager has expressed an interest in mentoring me. For B, I get to choose what team I want to be on and thus I have no idea who I'll be working with, but it does offer more flexibility in terms of what technologies I'll be working with. But this point might be moot since with a smaller company, I'd get to experiment too.
And yes, it's Seattle vs Bay Area...
posted by movicont at 5:00 PM on March 11, 2013
How much do you really know about the work-life balance at A? More days off doesn't necessarily mean better work-life balance. How long do you see yourself staying at either of these companies? If company A's salary is only slightly higher, is company B willing to give a signing bonus large enough to compensate, given how long you expect to be there? What are raises like at each company? A start-up might not have a system in place to handle raises, while a larger company probably will. Doesn't mean you won't get them, but it might mean you have to ask for them. And if you're unsure about negotiating (definitely do it), then you might have trouble asking for a raise as well....
Also, make sure you're dividing by 5 (and not 7) when figuring out your PTO.
posted by matildatakesovertheworld at 5:15 PM on March 11, 2013
Also, make sure you're dividing by 5 (and not 7) when figuring out your PTO.
posted by matildatakesovertheworld at 5:15 PM on March 11, 2013
If it's Seattle vs. Bay Area in that order, Company A is even more obviously the better choice based on housing costs & how far your salary will go.
posted by deludingmyself at 6:28 PM on March 11, 2013
posted by deludingmyself at 6:28 PM on March 11, 2013
Any job in the Bar Area needs to compensate you for the cost of living there in the salary package. It's really, really high.
posted by DarlingBri at 12:32 AM on March 12, 2013
posted by DarlingBri at 12:32 AM on March 12, 2013
Response by poster: Thanks for the advice, everyone!
Actually, company A is in the Bay Area and B is in Seattle. I did end up negotiating (with A) and it was much less scary than expected! I guess that makes it easier for next time...
posted by movicont at 11:07 PM on March 12, 2013
Actually, company A is in the Bay Area and B is in Seattle. I did end up negotiating (with A) and it was much less scary than expected! I guess that makes it easier for next time...
posted by movicont at 11:07 PM on March 12, 2013
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2. 10-7 is more common at startups and tech companies that have a workforce that skews young.
3. Unfortunately the size of the company says little about the chances to work abroad. It depends on the specific relocation policies, and if international experience is something that's encouraged and supported.
4. You would not be the first applicant at either company to accept an offer then withdraw later because your dream offer came through. Read the terms carefully especially with regard to the signing bonus, but generally you can withdraw your acceptance at any point with no consequences except to your professional reputation, if you are not as graceful and accommodating about it as you can be.
Finally just a couple words overall about your situation: it is extremely difficult to go against the prevailing work-life balance, especially as an entry-level employee. If that's important to you, I would advise you against taking an offer from a company that has a reputation of being poor on that front. Also, within the tech industry, job-hopping is generally expected, especially from young employees. So I'd choose the place that's best for you now, not the place you expect to be best for you in 2-3 years, and then move on if your situation changes.
The biggest factor in determining whether you love or hate your job is probably going to be your coworkers and immediate manager. If you know who those people will be, definitely take that into consideration.
Best of luck!
posted by psycheslamp at 3:26 PM on March 11, 2013